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The Ed Show for Friday, December 5th, 2014

Read the transcript to the Friday show

Date: December 5, 2014

Guest: Emanuel Cleaver, Jumaane Williams, Michael McBride, Howard Dean,
Glenn Grothman, Mark Pocan, Tiernan Sittenfeld

ED SCHULTZ, MSNBC HOST: Good evening Americans and welcome to Ed Show live
from Detroit Lake, Minnesota.

Let`s get to work.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Something has to change and something should be done
about it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Calls for racial justice grew louder today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can`t breathe.



REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES, (D) NEW YORK: We`ve got a problem in this country.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We can`t breathe.

MARK HOLMBERG, WTVR.COM: The casualty in the escalating war on bootleg

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stubborn prosperity divide between the rich and the

SCHULTZ: You know that there was 190 cities where people walk off the job
because the wages are too low?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s about envy and class warfare.

OBAMA: This is an American problem.

REP. PAUL RYAN, (R) WISCONSIN: More and more takers than makers in

GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE, (R) NEW JERSEY: It`s not income and equality it`s
opportunity and equality.

OBAMA: This is an American problem.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can`t breathe.


SCHULTZ: Good to have with us tonight folks, thanks for watching.

So, what is going to be the response to all of these protests that we are
seeing take place across this country? Only the people in power, the
decision makers, they`re the ones that are going to have to move on all of

Protests are going to take place throughout New York City tonight at
Columbus Circle, it`s going to be taking place at 6:00. This is common
place across America. Day two in New York City after the grand jury chose
not indict a police officer in the death of Eric Garner, enthusiasm hasn`t
drop at all.

Thursday night brought massive demonstration across the country, Washington
D.C., Boston, Chicago, San Francisco, Philadelphia, and Atlanta. There`s a
message being sent to the law makers of this country, you better do
something. The largest protest took place here in New York City where over
200 people were arrested, most of the arrests were for disorderly conduct
and refusal to disperse for blocking traffic. OK no big deal, meaning too
many people are around.

Thousands of protesters gathered in Foley Square, split up and then marched
all over New York City. Demonstrators carried mock caskets across the
Brooklyn Bridge, they shutdown the West Side Highway, protested in Grand
Central Station, and a number of streets where block in Midtown Manhattan

Earlier today protesters gathered in Union Square in another demonstration.
New York City is expecting more demonstrations this evening. Some to start
within the hour.

Last night protest, what were they? They were peaceful. The fact that
there was no violence lends these demonstrators huge credibility, that
those on the right simply cannot ignore these or starts making these people
a political target with commentary. It is time for this country to pay
attention to these protesters.

These protesters are sending a powerful message across this country and
don`t see them backing down. This will force America to have a
conversation on race that I think is long overdue. But it`s also going to
be a conversation on poverty.

When was the last time we had a real conversation about poverty in this
country? We talked about minimal wage and raising the minimum wage, we
talked about jobs. But there are people that are living in poverty who are
desperate and have a lot of free time on their hands and end up on the
streets becoming policed by law enforcement.

Now, this problem is much deeper than just policing. Minority community,
here`s what I think they need. They need the same chances at success as
white communities in this country. First and foremost, everyone in this
country needs access to a good education and a college education.

But let`s talk about that public education that has been under attack by
conservatives on a state level throughout this country. It`s go after the
teacher, it shutdown the facilities, it`s not fund certain districts
because the property taxes aren`t there.

We do not have an equal education system. And if you don`t have an equal
education system, you`re going to have a divided society when it comes to
the money. Without higher education this country is going to be stuck.
President Obama highlighted this on Thursday.


OBAMA: Beyond the specific issue that has to be addressed, making sure
that people have confidence, that police and law enforcement, prosecutors
are serving everybody equally, there`s the larger question of restoring a
sense of common purpose. And at the heart of the American ideal is this
sense that we`re in it together, that nobody`s guaranteed success but
everybody`s got access to the possibilities of success.

And that we are willing to work not just to make sure our own children have
pathway to success but that everybody does. That at some level everybody
is our kid, everybody is our responsibility.

We are going to give back to everybody. And we do that because it`s the
right thing to do. And we do it because selfishly that`s how this country
is going to advance and everybody is going to be better of.


SCHULTZ: The short of all it is the President is saying that this country
somewhere along the lines stopped being our brother`s keeper. It`s all
about opportunity. It`s not about giving things away. It`s about
opportunity and not closing doors.

Minority communities, what do they need? Well they need health care. They
need a secure social safety net just like very other community. And most
importantly, a job changes people`s...


... study from the University of Pennsylvania I found pretty interesting.
It found that disadvantaged youths were 43 percent less likely to commit a
violent crime if they had a summer job.

You occupy somebody`s time, you give him some security, you give him an
opportunity to better themselves and a lot of problems go away. But for
some reason with the race at the bottom this country has had a hard time
figuring that out. It`s all about being brilliant on the basics.

The jobs are there, the economy added 321,000 private sector jobs this past
November. Great news, unfortunately many of those jobs are at the federal
minimum wage at $7.25 an hour, minority communities, they need fair wage.
They need job training.

And if you give minority communities the same shot as other communities.
It`ll be a huge difference when it comes to fixing the problems that have
been facing us in recent days in the news. If Eric Garner had had a good
paying job, he wouldn`t have been out selling untaxed cigarettes and become
a target of law enforcement.

If his time had been occupied, if he had had the job training, if he had
the job, the good job, they can be created in this country if we make it a
priority. Then maybe a lot of these policing problems will go away on a
certain level. But that doesn`t take away the fact that what we have seen
in recent days is some really heavy-handed police action that this country
is now awake to.

And the demonstration are going to continue, and if these law makers who
have been all about obstruction in Washington D.C. think that they`re going
to be able to ignore these protests and say, "Wow, we`re thinking about
having hearings". No Mr. Boehner, you better have hearing because this
country expects it now.

We have gone beyond the point of political games and agenda is not being
played out. This is a social issue on a verge of social unrest and it must
be dealt with just like it was dealt within the 1960s. Do you know what
they did in the 1060s? They got together in Washington and they`ve passed
legislation to make lives better.

That`s what I expect law makers who`re using my tax dollars and our time,
that`s what I expect them to do.

Get your cellphones out I want to know what you think. Tonight`s question,
"Do you think jobs and street policing are connected?"

Text A for yes, text B for no to 67622 you can always go our blog at We`ll bring you the result later on in the show.

Big discussion on this tonight. Let me bring in Missouri Congressman
Emanuel Cleaver, also with us tonight New York City Councilman Jumaane
Williams, and also with us Reverend Michael McBride of the National PICO
Network., gentlemen great to have you with us.

Congressman you first, this is I think starting to put a special kind of
pressure on Washington that maybe we haven`t seen. I think certainly we
are seeing the most attention being paid to the black communities of this
country that we`ve seen in a long time, when it comes to the social issues
that must be addressed starting with policing.

Is this going to move Washington Congressman? Is this going to move

REP. EMANUEL CLEAVER, (D) MISSOURI: I certainly hope so, if it does not we
could very well see this kind of protests expanding or spreading around
even further. And it`s an embarrassment internationally. How in the world
are we going to talk to the Iraqis about having different tribes working
together and living together when they can look at television and see in
the U.S. that we`re having that kind of difficulty?

The Congress of United States absolutely must past some of kind of a jobs
bill, a job program. The best social program in America is a job, and if
we have a summer job for young people, and then we`ve got to retrain the
workforce and it`s just going to cost money and the federal government
needs to show the way and lead the way.

SCHULTZ: Congressman, do you think they`ll be hearing? Now, you know,
there`s been caveat somewhat thrown out by Speaker Boehner yesterday. But,
you know, this can`t be obstruction talk, this isn`t about a political
agendas. Now, this is about addressing social issues that people have
awakened to in a big way and are flat-out pretty mad about it and

So, what can hearings do?

CLEAVER: Well, my fear is that the hyper partisanship of Washington may
not make way for a hearing according to the rules of the House. But I can
tell you right now that there will be hearings and they maybe mock
hearings. Not only in Washington but in New York and so (ph) is around
this country.

The Congressional Black Caucus probably in harmony with the Hispanic
Congressional Caucus. We`ll end up doing hearings, we`re going to have
hearings one way or another, we`re going to have this discussion once way
or another.

It would be infinitely better if we had the discussion under the Rubric of
the U.S. Government because people need to believe that their government is
responding to this crisis.

SCHULTZ: Jumaane, in New York City it`s not just people of color. This
is, you know, a lot of white folks are out there too. This is a real
social statement that`s being made. Is this much more than policing in
your opinion? What are you hearing?

JUMAANE WILLIAMS, (D) NYC COUNCILMAN: One absolutely yes. First I did
want to say, when I look at what`s happening now with the diversity you
mentioned. I think to me it`s like what happened in the 1960s. A lot of
people didn`t really believe or understand of breathe of it until they
turned on the T.V. and saw the dogs being sick on innocent people.

I think this was happening here. People though there was a judge racing
going on. And with every case getting more outlandish and no
accountability people are fully understanding. And I think you hit the
nail on the head, even though it hasn`t been proven that he actually was
trying to sell cigarettes.

The construct that they`re setting up proves a lot of what you`re saying.
One of the major problems did -- many of these communities have been
ignored for generations. And so, people say they police and they`re asking
for police and that`s true. But they`re also asking for housing, they
asked for the street to be clean, they asked for better educational system
not just in the classroom.

They just ask at the structure that houses the classrooms are better. And
none of those things are listened to. And so you have to connect it. If
you only send police to send, to fix a problem that many agencies have to
fix. This is what the result is going to be.

And if you add in good old fashion racism which is not what everybody has.
But you also have a construct of police that look at particularly black men
on a certain way. Then there`s nothing else to expect than what`s

So, all of these things are connected. And if we don`t deal with all the
issue that these communities are dealing with, then we`re going to have a

SCHULTZ: Jumaane this is much bigger obviously than Occupy Wall Street.
But Occupy Wall Street did do one thing and that changed the conversation
in the country. This is much broader than policing as I see it right now.
This is a culmination of frustrations across the society.

What if Washington doesn`t deliver Jumaane, what happens?

WILLIAMS: They have to deliver, I can`t -- that question is something that
I just can`t even -- it`s hard to fathom, it`s been happening for so long.
Black and brown communities have been put in the corner and ignored. And
you`re correct, it is broader than policing.

We have to deal with better policing issues that is a lot of what we have
to do when it comes to accountability and a lot of issues with policing
yourself. But if we just did what the policing and we don`t deal with the
fact that these communities have been asking for jobs and these communities
have been asking for better housing. These communities have been asking
for community`s centers and youth programs.

If we don`t deal with those as whole and if the only resource we send is
police, the problem is going to get worse. My belief is that
demonstrations are going to get bigger and larger. I think it is a time in
history now that we`re not going to be able to ignore. We have -- for some
reason when we deal...


WILLIAMS: ... with race we get uncomfortable. And I don`t understand
because we can describe the problem in race very easily. But if we talk
about the solution in terms of race, we still are getting a very uneasy
(ph) and we shouldn`t. I mean it`s a matter of fact that white privilege

That doesn`t make anyone white person racist, it just means that it`s
there. It`s a matter of fact that the country was birth with these
inequities. That doesn`t mean that anyone is not responsible for their own
action. But we have...


WILLIAMS: ... to be honest about these conversations.

SCHULTZ: Reverend McBride, what role does the faith community play here?
These are 20 somethings out there. They don`t -- they didn`t live through
the civil rights movement of the 1960s.

They know about it, they know the voting rights. They know that laws were
change. They know that there was a push for equality in society. But now
there`s tremendous inequity and it`s going to be very important I think for
these demonstration to be nonviolent. What role does a faith community
play on all of these Reverend?

of the demonstrations which I believe flow out the spirit of what we saw in
Ferguson and many things before. Remember, much of this energy, youth
energy that we see climbed out of the Trayvon Martin situation, the Jordan
Davis situation, Black lives mattered, dream defenders.

A lot of these folks have been doing this for a several years. So this is
a manifestation of an ongoing sprit of nonviolent resistance. And I don`t
think the clergy necessary have to be there to maintain the nonviolent
resistance. I think we need to be there to amplify the voices and outrage
at a moral theological critique, ethical critique.

And lend our institution in such a way to support and stand beside all of
the folks in the streets, not attempt to usurp them or take authority over
them per say. But let`s stand together and let us use our collective voice
to make sure that we change these conditions.

Father Greg Boyle, one of the greatest inner gang ministry leaders in the
country. He said it powerfully, nothing stops a bullet like a job. We
have much to offer in the space, we need to be present and continue to
standalone side the very powerful protests and demonstrations that are

SCHULTZ: And finally the politics to this Congressman Cleaver. You know,
the Republicans, they have the power now. They control the agenda coming
up here in January in both the House and Senate. It`s a party that has
claimed that it has diversity but now many people believe that.

Isn`t the onus really on the leadership, on the Republican Party? That
this is real opportunity for them to prove that they`re serious about being
a party of diversity that they -- they have the power now. They can do
something with all of these protests and take action and prove something to
America or is that a bridge too far?

CLEAVER: Well, I`m not willing to say that it`s bridge too far at this
point. I would hope that Speaker Boehner will realize that most great man
and great woman for that matter were created out of chaos, out of problems.
And so this is an opportunity for him and perhaps even Mitch McConnell to
rise to the occasion, to provide leadership.

Rand Paul, I got to say, has been upfront on this and other issues related
ethnicity and race in this country. And, they may want to take a page out
of his book. Now I`m not a Rand Paul political supporter but he`s doing
the kind of things what would probably cause many minorities to take a
second look at the Republican Party. This is an opportunity...


CLEAVER: ... I hope they don`t blow it.

WILLIAMS: I`m sorry I just want to say that...

SCHULTZ: Congressman...

WILLIAMS: ... people have the power. The Republicans have some position
of power now but the people actually have the power to make the change that
we want to see.

MCBRIDE: And let me just plug also, we want to challenge progressive
leadership, Democrats to be more courageous and champions on this issue as
well along racial justice. I find that the record has been dismal at best.

So we need everyone to step up not just Republicans or independent but even
our Democrats and progressive who claim to be champions of poor people and
people of color. They have a role to play in this fight as well.

SCHULTZ: I agree with that, Congressman Emanuel Cleaver, Jumaane Williams
and Reverend Michael McBride, great to have you with us tonight.

MCBRIDE: Thanks for having me.

SCHULTZ: I appreciate -- the discussion thank you. You bet.

Remember to answer tonight`s question there at the bottom of the screen.
Share your thoughts with us on Twitter at Ed Show. Like us on Facebook we
appreciate that. And we always want to know what you think leave a

Coming up, meet the United States congressman-elect who compares the social
safety net to bribery. Republican Glenn Grothman joins me live here on the
Ed Show.

But first, out of a traffic jam. New Jersey Governor Chris Christie, ain`t
no shaky bridge over his troubled waters. The road to 2016 looks a little
bit better tonight. We`ll tell you about that when we come back. Stay
with us.



CHRISTIE: I come out here today to apologize to the people of New Jersey.
I am embarrassed and humiliated by the conduct of some of the people on my

I am humiliated by the fact that I did not know this and that I was
deceived. And that`s an awful way to feel.


SCHULTZ: Welcome back to the Ed Show. New Jersey Governor Chris Christie
is breathing easier today.

Back in January, I thought Christie did an exceptional job in his two-hour
press conference. In fact, at that time our team had conversations about,
do you believe him? And I did.

That`s why we didn`t cover a lot of Christie on the Ed Show. And I thought
the guy went out and made a case that was believable.

Christie said he was not involved in ordering politically motivated lane
closures on the George Washington Bridge. Now, almost one year after
Bridgegate, a Democratic-led legislative committee has released 136-page
interim report.

Investigators found no conclusive evidence that Christie was aware of the
lane closures and no conclusive evidence Christie was involved in the lane
closures. However, the report notes, "Many critical questions remain
unanswered" because "several key witnesses have declined to cooperate or
were otherwise unavailable to provide testimony and other evidence."

That be as it is. The report has not been formally accepted by the
legislative committee. A meeting is scheduled on Monday for that purpose.

Before the Bridgegate scandal, Chris Christie was the obvious frontrunner
for the Republicans in 2016. Lot of buzz, lot of conversation and of
course he`s the head of the Republican Governor`s Association. And with no
conclusive evidence tying him to Bridgegate, Christie could be ready to
take the lead again. Could it happen? Could it be a revival in the polls
and in interest?

Joining me tonight, Former Vermont Governor and Former DNC Chair, Howard
Dean. Governor Dean, good to have you with us tonight.

FMR. GOV. HOWARD DEAN, VERMONT: Thanks for having me, Ed.

SCHULTZ: Is this is a -- you bet -- is this a shot case in your opinion?
How do you view this right now? The way this is unfolding apparently in
Christie`s favor politically.

DEAN: Well, he`s got three problems. Only one of which and it`s the
biggest one is related to -- and one of which is unrelated to Bridgegate.

The first problem with the Bridgegate problem is that, not of the people
who really know testified, they took the fifth. So the only real
connection was his Deputy Chief Of Staff and the Head of Port Authority and
took the Fifth Amendment, so they didn`t testify at all. So this is hardly
a white wash.

Number two, the United States Attorney is still investigating this. So
that`s a problem. But the big problem for Chris Christie is actually not
Bridgegate, it`s Chris Christie.

You know, Chris Christie sort of got to his office by being this brash guy
who said and told the way it is and all these kind of business. And then,
I think you probably saw the time he shutdown a guy who is actually -- I
think a Republican turned independent who was an activist for the people
who haven`t got their money from (inaudible), about 80 percent of their
money. And he just told her to sit down and shut up.

Now, you can`t do that in Iowa and Minnesota. As I like to say forget
about it is not a program or a platform that runs it serves you well in
most of the country west of the Alleghenies. And that is Chris Christie`s
big problem. They got three to four candidates who are credible

Why if you are big donor, would you bet on (inaudible) that you already
know has a problem?

SCHULTZ: All of these things you just mentioned have taking place since
the Bridgegate all unfolded...

DEAN: Right.

SCHULTZ: ... last January. So you`re suggesting he`s really been his own
worst enemy. I mean his personality sometimes gets out of the ring and
gets out of control.

DEAN: Well, his personality if terrific for New Jersey. New Jersey is
rough-and-tumble place just like in New York, it`s the East Coast and
people say what they think and that`s valued in New Jersey. It is not
valued -- telling people to sit down and shut up when you`re the President
of the United States is not going to fly. You just can`t do that.

And so, I just think the problem with Chris Christie is no matter how
people might like this, you know, tell it like it is stuff, average voters
are not going to like and I think that`s going to be a problem for him.

SCHULTZ: You did mention the U.S. Attorney`s Office still investigating.

DEAN: Right.

SCHULTZ: Do you think that there will be possibility that their
investigation is going to be any different from the Democratic-led
investigation that certainly was after Christie?

DEAN: Well there`s two parts of the -- about the U.S. Attorney`s
investigation he has to worry about. One is that, do they find one of
these people who took the Fifth Amendment and threaten them with a lot of
jail time unless they roll? That`s number one.

Number two, there`s an episode that we haven`t talk about, and that was the
question about whether the mayor through -- I mean, the governor through
his lieutenant governor threatened the Mayor Hoboken and claims that he was
going to withhold federal aid unless she endorsed him. That is a felony.

And if this attorney -- excuse me -- the U.S. Attorney finds evidence of
that then he is in serious trouble. You can`t get in that much trouble for
shutting down the George Washington Bridge a little bit and pissing people
off. I mean, that`s political trouble.

This is criminal trouble and we have to wait and see how that turns out as

SCHULTZ: Latest Quinnipiac Poll has Christie behind of all people. Mitt
Romney and Jeb Bush of the Republicans primary were held today, tied with
Dr. Ben Carson. What do you make of this?

DEAN: I think in general, polls at this are name recognition and they`re
too early and I don`t make anything of it to be honest with you. If you
think of their last presidential primary where they had different leader,
they were saying Santorum was leading and Herman Cain was leading and I,
you know, I think Donald Trump was leading at one point.

So, I just don`t make anything out of polls at this point in the race. I
really don`t.

SCHULTZ: Governor Dean, later on in this broadcast we`re going to be doing
a story on Hillary Clinton, and her position on keystone which really is
not a position that`s very defined right now.

There`s going to be real environmental push by liberals and progressives in
this country for 2016. Where is this going to come down with the leading
candidate for the Democrats in your opinion?

DEAN: Well, Ed my view, what`s going to happen is Keystone is going to be
decided one way or another. Probably by the time Hillary Clinton gets into
the race. So, I would be surprised if keystone were an issue in the 2016

I think it`s going to be resolved one way or another probably the next
month or two.

SCHULTZ: OK. Howard Dean, good to have you with us tonight. I appreciate
your time sir. Thank you so much.

DEAN: OK, thanks. I appreciate it.

SCHULTZ: Coming up -- you bet, you bet -- the new Republican Congressman
headed for the Hill. Glenn Grothman joins me with his take on the social
safety net. You`re going to want to hear this, different idea no doubt
about it.

Plus, NASA is back in the space game.

Stick around. We`ll be right back on the Ed Show.


SCHULTZ: Welcome back to the Ed Show.

We have some breaking news tonight. We`re getting new information about,
an apparent discrepancies on a Rolling Stone article about a horrific rape
case at the University of Virginia.

Earlier today the magazine issued a letter to readers clarifying details in
a story published last month. Rolling Stone identified the woman in the
article as Jackie. The magazine says, it had no reason to believe her
story was not trustworthy. She apparently requested the man who
orchestrated the rape not to be contacted.

But now Rolling Stone says, "In the face of new information, there now
appears to be discrepancies in Jackie`s account, and we have come to the
conclusion that our trust in her was misplaced. We were trying to be
sensitive to the unfair shame and humiliation many women feel after a
sexual assault and now regret the decision to not contact the alleged
assaulters to get their account. We are taking this seriously and
apologize to anyone who was affected by the story."

Virginia`s Attorney General responded moments ago calling the discrepancies
deeply troubling. The President of the University of Virginia says the
school is continuing to focus on the safety and well-being of students.

We`ll continue to follow this as it develops.

Stick around. We`ll be right back on the Ed Show.

Market Wrap.

The Dow finished at 17,958 after coming within 9 points of hitting 18,000
early on the day. The S&P added 3, the NASDAQ jumps 11 points.

Well the market surge is lead by stronger than expected November jobs
report. U.S. employers added 341,000 jobs in November, the largest gain
since January of 2012, and the unemployment rate remain unchanged, instead
(ph) a six-year low of 5.8 percent.

Crude Oil Features fell 1.5 percent to a five-year low in just under $66 a
barrel, fueling consumer spending just at the right time for the holidays.

That`s it from CNBC we`re first in business worldwide.


SCHULTZ: Welcome back to the Ed Show. Thanks for watching tonight folks.

A newly elected Wisconsin Congressman says government assistant programs
are bribery.

Congressman-elect Glenn Grothman slammed the system and its recipients.


STATE SEN. GLENN GROTHMAN, (R) WISCONSIN: A single parent with a couple
kids can easily get $35,000 a year in total benefits. When you look at
that amount of money which is in essence a bribe not to work that hard or a
bribe not to marry someone with a full-time job, people immediately realize
you have a problem.

And then as soon as you realize you have a problem and something has to be
done, then you look at the generosity of the benefits and see what you can
do to pare them back.


SCHULTZ: Grothman says the anti-poverty programs are creating a reason not
to get marry.


GROTHMAN: Well, if you tell somebody you`re going to get $35,000 if you
don`t get married and you`re not going to get anything if you marry
somebody making 50 grand a year -- I don`t know, it`s kind of a -- it`s
certainly a strong incentive not to raise children in wedlock.


SCHULTZ: Wisconsin`s Governor is also blaming welfare recipients for their
economic status in life.


GOV. SCOTT WALKER, (R) WISCONSIN: Moving our entitlement program
particularly when it comes to traditional welfare programs towards a system
where it`s -- it embraces the dignity that comes from work.


SCHULTZ: Scott Walker advocates drug testing welfare recipients without
reasonable suspicion.


WALKER: Is they can`t find enough people can pass drug test. So it just
seems ridiculous to me that we`re going to get people public assistance
particularly if they`re able body adults without their children.


SCHULTZ: It seems to me like we have open season on welfare recipients and
it started in Wisconsin. Grothman wants to take it back to Washington.

Joining me tonight is the gentlemen in question, the Congressman who is
newly elected from Wisconsin, State Senator Glenn Grothman, also with us
tonight is Wisconsin Congressman Mark Pocan.

Senator, good to have you with us tonight, I appreciate your time. Do you
stick to your comments the 35,000 is a number that I`ve never heard before?
Where are you getting your numbers?

GROTHMAN: That numbers is from something called a Wisconsin Legislative
Fiscal Bureau. You get different numbers depending upon how much a single
parent is making, where they live, how many children they have.

The example that I happen to use was an example in which a single parent
was making $10,000 a year, had two children, one of school age and one

And will say I object a little bit, you me characterizing me as going after
the welfare recipients. And so far as I am angry, is that the politicians
who have allowed this system to get out of control and create a situation
in which -- if a single parent wants to get married, they could do as
$25,000 to $35,000 in benefits.

SCHULTZ: OK. I want to give back to that in a moment and I appreciate
your response on that.

Congressman Pocan, are you aware of the program that Mr. Grothman just
talked about and is that number correct in your opinion?

REP. MARK POCAN, (D) WISCONSIN: You know, I served with Glenn in the
legislature and I was the Chair -- Co-Chair of the Finance Committee, so I
worked with that bureau a lot. And, you can give any amount of information
for what you want to get back. And those numbers that were submitted are
not only fictional but they`re fantastical.

They have said that just by one screening criteria, people who received
TANF in student aid that would be less than 260 people in a state of 5.5
million people, and that`s just on one screening.

So, it really is a ridiculous argument to put that out there to say it`s
easy to get that much when -- if you narrow it down, narrow it down. This
is a fantasy family with a fantasy problem on a fantasy issue and I think
it`s a really a dangerous conversation because when people really need
assistance, we collectively get together and do that. But, if you think
about children who get federal health assistance, six out of seven have
working parents.

Half the people who get food assistance are working and six of the seven
again have worked within the last year. So, really the criteria put out
there by the Senator is really very misleading and I think ultimately
dangerous to even have that.

SCHULTZ: Mr. Grothman, your response.

GROTHMAN: (Inaudible) misleading at all. Right, we`re talking about a
single parent who has two children, who is making $10,000, that`s not an
outlier. It`s not like I used an example of somebody who has 10 kids or
something and...

POCAN: But Glenn, didn`t they say -- they said that that would be less
than at most, just on one screening 260 people in the state...


POCAN: ... of 5.5 million. So, to say that it...


... we`re being told based on one screening alone it`s that maximum


POCAN: ... that`s really disingenuous.

GROTHMAN: Mark, Mark, you haven`t seen the memo. In the memo, a small
segment -- the memo actually came up now with 35,000 -- came with 39,000.
And of that 39,000 in benefits, only $700 or $800 was towards Pell Grant
type programs. That was -- it was only that small amount.

So, I -- when I spoke on another show, I paired back that 39,000 to 35,000
which is a more reasonable number. Now it is true some people make more
than $10,000. If they made like $20,000 that number would be less. Maybe
that number would be 26,000, 27,000, I`m not sure.

If I would have given the fiscal bill (ph) a situation in which a single
parent had four kids, maybe that $39,000 number would have gone up to
44,000, 45,000, or 47,000, I don`t know.

POCAN: But Glenn, you said it on T.V. and what you`re going around saying
is that it`s easy to make 35,000...


... driving people not to work and that is...

GROTHMAN: That is...


POCAN: ... maliciously because it`s not...


... on many standard. You got a Pinocchio (ph) city from the Washington
Post. You know everyone is going through...


POCAN: ... looking at this and saying...


POCAN: ... what you`re saying isn`t true and yet you still (inaudible).

GROTHMAN: That`s its absolutely true Mark. You add up the day care

POCAN: It`s not...

GROTHMAN: ... earned income tax credit, the health care benefits, the low
income housing benefits, these are not some of obscure benefits that few
people get, these are common benefits. And what maybe true not everybody
get some.

I think the numbers of people are getting $20,000, $25,000 benefit with the
benefit is quite high and there is no question...

POCAN: Glenn, again you`re saying, you think. The facts defy what you
think, that`s the problem.

GROTHMAN: No, no, no.

POCAN: When we actually narrow it down...

GROTHMAN: It`s not true Mark.

POCAN: Glenn, it`s not true.

GROTHMAN: You add up -- It`s absolutely true Mark.

POCAN: People are reviewing your analyst and saying why it`s not true.


POCAN: A lot of these people are working while they`re getting benefit.
You can go down and break your argument over and over...


POCAN: Your philosophy...

GROTHMAN: No. Mark, if you`re looking the benefits and that is great...

POCAN: Your philosophy is so extreme and...

GROTHMAN: Mark, it is absolutely true...

POCAN: ... what look like Mother Theresa.

GROTHMAN: No, Mark if you look and add up the standard benefits in the
State of Wisconsin, for day care, for health care, for earned income tax

POCAN: Glenn, you`re cooking the numbers...

GROTHMAN: That`s the truth here...

POCAN: ... argument...

GROTHMAN: ... we are embarrassing the numbers at all.


POCAN: He`s been proven wrong.


SCHULTZ: Congressman, if I can jump in here. Glenn, I`d like to hear your
full explanation on that. Go ahead.

GROTHMAN: Sure. If you look at the memo and I wish you a chance to go
over it, if you add up those are the big five benefits, there are lesser
benefits as well but the big five would be day care, earned income tax
credit, health care, low income housing and food stamps.

If you take, let say a single person making $10,000 a year, you add up
those five benefits by it self and I think you get something like 25,000,
30,000, 32,000 or something. That`s not an outlier, that`s not a strange
family. And if I would have given that family, say three or four kids
instead of two kids, the number of benefits would be greater.

Now, the point I was trying to make though is not that it`s over generous
or making fun of family, the point I was trying to make is, that it`s
unfair that if you have two people in identical situations and one decides
to get married and one decides not get marry, the person who gets married
losses tens of thousands of dollars. And we have to ask our self as a

SCHULTZ: But Mr. Grothman, don`t you think you`re broad brushing the
system when you say that. It`s like you`re parceling out a very small part
of a program and saying that there is something wrong with the total social
structure here to the point where everybody who gets assistance is being
bribed by the state of Wisconsin. It`s what it sounds like.

GROTHMAN: No. I have not given a broad brush thing, I am saying. When
you have these many benefits it affects two decisions. It affects your
decision should I marry with somebody...


GROTHMAN: ... who has a strong income and it affects your decision, should
I work much harder because the more you work...


GROTHMAN: ... the more you have to pay for your housing and you have...


GROTHMAN: ... and all of that. And it`s a very significant problem.

SCHULTZ: And I have to ask you Mr. Grothman, have you come across people
in Wisconsin that have made the decision? I mean, have you actually talked
to people that said, it so good on assistance I`ve decided not to get
married. Have you actually run into those people?

GROTHMAN: I have talked to people who are related to people like that and
they gave me anecdotal stories.


GROTHMAN: And, if you look at the memo, you will see it is not in outlier
family. You could do the same...


GROTHMAN: ... no matter where you are located. Loot at in New York, if
you went out there and talk to social services and said, I want to add up
what benefits am I entitled to, if I have two kids and I make 10 grand a
year, you would get a similar number.

SCHULTZ: All right, gentlemen, I`ve enjoyed the discussion. And
Congressman Mark Pocan, also Glenn Grothman, welcome to congress. This
will be interesting. Good to have with us tonight gentlemen. Thank you so

Coming up, Hillary Clinton`s silent treatment on the biggest environmental
issue of our time, the Punch Out coming up. Stay with us. We`ll be right
back on the Ed Show.


SCHULTZ: Coming up, Hillary Clinton is still silent on Keystone.


This is the best argument, the proponents of the Keystone XL Pipeline have.
They`re moving too much oil by rail. Farmers at the upper mid-west are
upset because they can`t get product to market. So this is why they really
want the Keystone.



SCHULTZ: Welcome back to the Ed Show. And finally tonight, the
environment is the key issue for progressives right now in this country,
with Keystone. Hillary Clinton seems to be lacking in definition on the
Keystone XL Pipeline project.

Earlier this week at a League of Conservation Voters fundraiser, Clinton
addressed the need for change however, she notably avoided specifics.


primarily on fossil fuels and trying to change that will require strong
leadership and intense cooperation. We do not have to choose between a
healthy environment and a healthy economy.


SCHULTZ: From President Obama`s point of view developments are moving in
the right direction.

The agreement with the President of United States struck with China to
double the pace of American`s greenhouse gas reductions guarantees the
environment will be a campaign issue in 2016.

As I see it, if Hillary Clinton wants the support from the Democratic base
who`s concerned about the environment, she needs to be just as committed to
helping the environment as she was to helping for health care. Keeping
quite on the Keystone XL project ain`t going to win any friends in the
environmental community, and giving us generic political talk, I don`t
think is going to cut it.

Liberals are determined to address climate change in the next election
cycle. I don`t see how Hillary Clinton can keep going on dogging her
position if she has one on the Keystone XL project.

Joining me tonight, Tiernan Sittenfeld who is a Senior Vice President for
Government Affairs for the League of Conservation Voters.

Tiernan, good to have with us tonight.

having me.

SCHULTZ: It seems to me that -- with so much information that it`s been
out there on Keystone, you`re either with us or you`re against us. You`re
either for it or you`re against it.

Why is -- the Former Secretary of State and Former Senator and Former First
Lady, why is she finding it so hard to find her voice on this issue?

SITTENFELD: We Ed, we were thrilled to have Secretary Clinton speak at our
dinner in New York City on Monday night. And I think there has been a lot
of attention to the things that she didn`t say and of course as you know
LCV is very opposed to the dirty and dangerous Keystone XL Tar Sands
Pipeline. And we think the more people who come out against it better but,
at the same time we weren`t necessarily expecting Secretary Clinton to talk
about it on Monday.

She`s been cleared that she thinks there`s a process in place. And for us,
the decision about Keystone remains where it belongs which is with
President Obama and Secretary Kerry and we are more confident than ever
that they`re going to reject it.

I think the thing that was exciting about the speech for us is that she
really gave a powerful speech about the urgent need to address climate
change. She called up climate change deniers. She gave a very strong
defense of President Obama`s climate action plan to cut power pollution and
carbon pollution from coal burning power plant.

So, we were actually, I would say quite pleased with the speech and very
glad that she was there.

SCHULTZ: Well, I`m not trying to get your organization to pick a flight
with Hillary Clinton, but I think it needs to be profoundly pointed out
that, if you`re concerned about the environment, how can you be for
Keystone? It just doesn`t add up.

SITTENFELD: Well, and actually, I think a lot of what she said made us
even more encouraged just like it does with President Obama. You`re right,
it doesn`t make sense to be talking so much about the urgent need to
address climate change, to be supporting efforts to cut power -- carbon
pollution from coal burning power plants. To support the incredible
agreement with China to cut carbon pollution, and then to turn around and
take such a massive set backwards which is something like the Keystone

So again, I would say, we are optimistic across the board that more and
more of our leaders are recognizing that climate change is one of the
defining challenges of our time that it must be addressed, and that
rejecting dirty fuels including Tar Sands and the Keystone Pipeline
specifically is very much part of that solution.

SCHULTZ: There is a chance that Keystone won`t get approved. And this
could be a fight all the way to 2016. How can the environmental community
trust Hillary Clinton now in the environment if she won`t even say where
she is on the most visible product -- project that`s out there in front of
American people?

SITTENFELD: Well, I would say, you`re right. I think there is more than a
chances this will get rejected. I think, we`re going to clearly see the
McConnell-led Senate try to push this through the Congress. But, I think
that we saw the Obama administration make pretty clear a couple of weeks
ago that they would have vetoed that bill.

Again, we think because of all of the incredible leadership and progress
that we`re seeing on climate change from President Obama, I think the
comments from Secretary Kerry -- for Clinton were consistent with that. So
we are optimistic.

SCHULTZ: Yeah. Tiernan Sittenfeld, I appreciate your time tonight. Thank
you so much. There are others who were thinking about running for
president on the Democratic ticket who absolutely have no problem
whatsoever saying they`re against Keystone, why can`t Hillary Clinton?

That`s the Ed Show, I`m Ed Schultz.


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