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The Ed Show for Monday, December 8th, 2014

Read the transcript to the Monday show

December 8, 2014

Guest: Leo Gerard, Dan Kildee, Peter DeFazio, Kerry Kennedy, Terry

ED SCHULTZ, THE ED SHOW HOST: Good evening Americans and welcome to the Ed
Show live from Detroit Lake, Minnesota.

Let`s get to work.


BARACK OBAMA, 44TH PRESIDENT OF AMERICA: There are folks in my own party
barking up on the wrong tree when it comes to appeasing TPP.

SCHULTZ: Just as NAFTA on steroids.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now his ready to pass Boehner trade.

SCHULTZ: The TPP is just as bad, if not, worst. In past agreements
included NAFTA.

OBAMA: So, and I`m going to engage directly with our friends in labor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re not against trade.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When we help this President, well listen to those of us
who have supported him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re just against trade that destroys job.


SCHULTZ: Good to have with us tonight folk`s. Thanks for watching. 10
years ago I wrote a book, the title was Straight Talk from the Heartland.
I`m going to give that to you right here tonight. The Trans-Pacific
Partnership is not a job creator for American business. It is a job
killer, it is an outsourcer and it something that is not going to help our
economy get on a role further from what it is right. Now, the American
economy no doubt it`s working for some, there`s no question about it. All
gain, as I see it could be lost if the President travels down this road
with the Congress and approve a bad trade deal known as the TPP.

Now, this is a big week, because this past weekend officials from 12
countries involved with the TPP resumed negotiations in the nation`s
capital. This meeting follows a TPP summit that took place back in
November where President Obama and other leaders instructed officials to
make concluding the TPP a "Top priority". I ask the question tonight

This news comes as the stock market is reaching record high and granted not
everybody is in the market, I get that. But it`s a heck of lot better for
those who are that your retirement, that your kids education that`s a
little money for your family, if you`re in the market. Now today, the Dow
closed over 17,800, it`s up 12 percent this year alone. If you`re in it,
you`re doing better.

The economy is creating jobs faster than ever before. 321,000 private
sector jobs were added in November. We`ve seen 57 straight months of
private sector job growth and all of the jobs that we lost to recession
have come back to the economy but they`ve comeback into the economy mostly
at lower wages. Now, the unemployment rate right now is at 5.8 percent, if
you believe the bureau for labors statistic.

And you know what? Obamacare has not been the big job killer that the
Republican said it would be. Now, I know that things aren`t perfect. But
this is a far crime from where we were back in early 2009 when President
Obama came on board. Done a great job with the economy with no Republican
help, as I see it. But all it takes is one bad turn. All you have to do
is get off on the exit at the wrong speed and the cops are going to right
there. And the cops right there, the international cops are going to be
there on this deal. This is not a good deal. I will pound this table
because it`s not a good deal for Americans workers.

The Trans-Pacific Partnership, the free trade agreement, it`s going to put
all of the numbers I just showed you at risk, as I see it. Now, we have
known from the past, from past trade agreements, American jobs, they`re not
gain, their lost when deals are approved.

Senator Mitch McConnell, has made it clear, right after the midterm, his
top priority is to get this trade deal through.


SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL, (R-KY) MINORITY LEADER: The trade agreement, the
President and I were just talking about that right before I came over here.
Most of his party is unenthusiastic about international trade. We think
it`s good for America. And so I`ve got a lot of members who believe that
international trade agreements are a winner for America. And the President
and I discussed that right before I came over here, and I think he`s
interested in moving forward. I said "Send us trade agreements. We`re
anxious to take a look at them."


SCHULTZ: Unfortunately President Obama is wrong headed on this one. He is
on board with the TPP. Here`s the President just last Wednesday.


OBAMA: If we`re able to get Trans-Pacific Partnership done then we`re
actually forcing some countries to boost their labors standard, boost their
environmental standards, boost transparency, reduce corruption, increase
intellectual property protection. And so all that is good for us.

Those who oppose these trade deals ironically are accepting a status quo
that is more damaging to American workers. There are folks in my own party
and in my own constituency that have legitimate complaints about some of
the trend lines of inequality, but are barking up the wrong tree when it
comes to opposing TPP, and I`m going to have to make that argument.


SCHULTZ: It`s interesting. That`s the most aggressive the President has
been on the TPP. And it was in front of the business round table last
week. The business round table, well obviously, there`s a bunch of
corporate is there, there`s a bunch Walls Street is there, bunch of big
business people there. They wanted it, because it attacks wages and then
attacks labors standards. Where the president is getting this council that
is going to raise labor standard, where? In Vietnam? I doubt it.

The President has a lot of things right, he has this wrong. Members in
this own Party are adamantly against the TPP, as he talk about. I spoke
about with some of these Democratic House members earlier this year, back
in January on this story.


REP. PETER DEFAZIO, (D) OREGON: With Fast Track, what they do is they
spring it out. We`ve got 60 days to vote on it, up or down no amendments.

This is the way to railroad through disastrous trade agreements. That`s
the way they did NAFTA, WTO and now they want to replicated on this TPP.

REP. ROSA DELAURO, (D) CONNECTICUT: We`re looking at the weakening of
financial regulations, we are looking at the weakening of our of a food
safety supply. Critical issues as it has to do with Vietnam and Malaysia.
We`re looking at weakening of environmental laws and we are going to
potentially cutoff access to people in other countries to affordable drugs.

REP. MARK POCAN, (D) WISCONSIN: There`s over 20 chapters of things that
you can look at that are bad for the U.S. economy.

What I think is just the fact that Fast Track is even before it shows the
problem. The fact that they want to speed this through before people know
what`s inside of it tells us exactly, and to me it`s counter intuitive,
right, than you know there`s something bad in there.

REP. KEITH ELLISON, (D) MINNESOTA: If we mobilize the American people all
over this country, educate people on the damage that Fast Track and these
ugly (ph) trade deals they have been doing. We can mount a pushback to
overcome these kinds of things.


SCHULTZ: So here we go in the January of 2015 where the Republicans are
going to have control of both Houses, the House and senate. Unfortunately
House Democrats aren`t going to be able to mount much of an opposition
here. All Americans need to remember what past trade deals have done to
the American economy. NAFTA cost our trade deficit to sky rocket with
Mexico since it was past back in 1994. In all, we`re talking 700,000
Americans jobs were lost because of this bad trade deal.

In 2001 China was given preferred nation trading status. This cost our
trade deficit with China to do what? To more than triple. In 2013 the
trade deficit was roughly $315 billion. It`s estimated this deal will,
with the China, will cost 2.7 million American jobs between 2001 and 2011.
Now, 76 percent were good paying manufacturing jobs.

Now, in 2012 the United States entered into a free trade agreement with
South Korea. The government claim Korus would create 70,000 jobs right
here in the United States. So far we`ve lost 60,000 jobs, many of them in
the manufacturing sector. The facts on free trade agreements are clear and
simple. No free agreement has even created jobs in the United States if
you look at the numbers. Free trade agreements open up the opportunity for
low paying jobs overseas.

Our economy, you could make the cases on a roll. Stock market is up. Jobs
are coming back in a pretty strong phase, even though the Republicans won`t
admit it. Now, President Obama, the Republican are putting, I think all
that progress at risk without an explanation to the country. I agree with
President on a lot of issues, but on this one he is wrong. Think about
investment. Do you just right a check to anybody because they say, "Hey, I
think you should invest in this?"

How many stories have we done here on the Ed Show in 2014? Countless
stories about jobs in the economy. And the fact is if we don`t have
standards, if we`re going to allow the outsourcing to continue with a
toward pace and then come back and say "Well there, we`re going to be
exporting more." Wait a minute, we`re going to be importing more, which is
going to hurt American jobs.

The President has not made the case to the American people. He`s talked to
the business round table and told him just what they wanted to hear. But
he hasn`t looked the American people in the eye and say, "Here`s the devil
and the details. This is what`s going to happen to our economy if we go to
the TPP." And the president has no record to turn on and say, "This trade
deal was good. This trade deal was good. This trade deal was good for
American workers."

And its` ironic. The very people that put President Obama in office, he`s
ready to throw to the side of the road as road kill. That`s what it comes
down to. Labor is at odds with the President on this issue. He`s a great
President but he`s wrong on this one.

Get your cellphones out, I want to know what you think. Tonight`s
question, will the TPP be the first trade deal to ever create American

Text A for yes, text B for no to 67622, leave a comment on our blog at We`ll bring you results later on in the show.

I`ve got three gentlemen to talk about this tonight. I want to bring in
Congressman Dan Kildee, also Oregon Congressman Peter DeFazio. Leo Gerard,
the President of United Steelworkers International. Gentlemen, good to
have you with us tonight. Mr. Gerard, I got to go to you first.


SCHULTZ: Because the President says to the business round table, "Those
who oppose the TPP are accepting the status quo and that it`s damaging
American workers." I want your response to that?

GERARD: Well, my first response is the prior to NAFTA and prior to PNTR
with the China and prior to the trade deal with South Korea and Columbia,
the status quo is better than what we got now. We had trade surplus with
Mexico, we had closer to a trade balance with South Korea. We had a very
small trade deficit with China. Now, we`ve got huge trade deficit from
NAFTA, we got a unbelievable accumulated trade debt from China.

Ed, you made the point about how many hundreds of millions of dollars last
year. But let me tell you if you go from the start to PNTR with China to
now, we`re talking about a wealth transfer of almost $7.5 to $8 trillion,
depending on which economist you look at. And plus they`ve stolen our
intellectual property. 0And somebody needs to tell me, why we need a trade
deal with Brunei, with Malaysia, with Vietnam? Do you really think that
there going to buy goods that we`re going to send them or are we going to
send them our jobs and they`re going to send us goods? The track record


GERARD: . in fact that way.

SCHULTZ: Congressman DeFazio I know you`ve done some work on this in a big
way, intellectual property protection. That`s what the President told the
business round table. Is that correct?

REP. PETER DEFAZIO, (D) OREGON: No, actually, but the big winner here is
the pharmaceutical industry and if you want to consider that to be
intellectual property protection. Yes, there`s a lot of it in there. It`s
actually going to drive up the prices of drugs in Australia, in New
Zealand, Japan and elsewhere. So pharmaceutical industry is a big winner,
otherwise the I.P., the internet, you know, the protection in this bill is
pretty similar to the same one we have in our deal with China. Those have
worked really well.

They`re essentially non-enforceable. Those governments have to adopt
rules, they don`t have to enforce them. That all this trade deal says.
You have to adopt rules to protect the environment. But we, you know, it`s
not -- we can`t complain if you don`t enforce them. You have to adopt
rules to protect intellectual property. But if you don`t enforce them,
don`t worry about it.

And then labor, that`s a joke. Americans are going to be competing with
Vietnam where they have child labor and prison labor and, you know, force
labor in Vietnam. And somehow this is protecting labor and it`s creating a
new higher standard. What`s the current standard? It`s must be slavery.
That`s the only think I can think of lower that force labor and child

SCHULTZ: Congressman Kildee, what is the President mean when he says it`s
going to boost the labor standards? What he`s talking about? What do you
think of that?

REP. DAN KILDEE, (D) MICHIGAN: We`ll, you know, we`ve been through this
before. I come from Flint, Michigan where these sorts of agreements have
lead to us losing 90 percent of our manufacturing jobs. So this is not an
effort that will elevate the standard in other countries. This is an
effort that is erased to the bottom.

The thing we have to ask ourselves even if we have agreements that are
written, that are suppose to be able to elevate standards. What about
enforcement? I`ve seen nothing that would indicate there`s going to be
strong enforcement. What about currency? This agreement should include
strong currency provisions and very strong robust enforcement. I`ve seen
nothing that says there will any strong currency enforcement.


KILDEE: The problem is Congress can`t seed its constitutional
responsibility to regulate trade, no matter who is the President is.

SCHULTZ: What about that Mr. Gerard?

GERARD: Ed, let me just say what the Congressman...

SCHULTZ: What about...

GERARD: Let me just say what the Congressman said, we`ve got currency,
we`ve got state on enterprises that are being subsidies. And if you look
at what they`re talking about, if you look at the history of the trade
deals that have gone in the past and you talk about enforcement as the two
Congressmen have talk about. We`ve brought -- we`ve been in United States,
brought out enforceable action against Guatemala. It took us six years.

Now, if they had done that resolution in six weeks or six months we still
have, maybe they`re enforcing. Six years, that`s a joke. And so what the
issue of the enforcement, how do you enforce against state on enterprises?
How do you enforce against stealing our intellectual property? How do you
enforce about labor rights in Vietnam, where they`re paying $0.26 an hour,
if they`re not already in prison? What you`re going to do with Brunei?
Brunei is practice Sharia Law. Why is that an issue? What are we going to


GERARD: . to Brunei if they`re going to want from us? I mean this is...

SCHULTZ: Congressman DeFazio, why has did the administration explain this
to the American people? All of these has been hide behind close doors and
negotiators are in on the loop and what not? But the American people, I
think if they knew the devil on the details on this there`ll be marching on
the street on this. Why hasn`t there been an explanation?

DEFAZIO: Well, because -- you just said it Ed. People will be marching in
the streets. The American people are feed up with these give away to
multinational corporations. In this case members of Congress cannot
readily access this agreement. Yeah, I can it makes us special
appointment, they`ll bring it to my office, I can`t have any staff in the
room, I can`t take any notes and I can`t talk about it, but I can sort look
at it. You know, 27 chapters it`s even being kept secret from Congress.
That`s why the President wants Fast Track, so Congress won`t have a chance
to review it, debate it, hold hearing on it and because it would raise
outrage amount the American people.

I don`t think he`s going to get Fast Track. Yeah, but Senate will roll
over easy. Senate always rolls over on trade deals. But if we can form an
alliance with the Tea Party Republicans here in the House who don`t want to
get Obama anything and people who are true conservative who don`t want to
see their constitution authority and those of us who are progressive and
see business of disaster for working Americans.

I think we can put together a majority to deny him Fast Track. And if he
doesn`t get Fast Track, he`s not going to get this deal.

GERARD: Ed, let me just say something.

SCHULTZ: All right.

GERARD: . about trade adjustment. Ed, can I just say something about
trade adjustment assistance?

SCHULTZ: Yeah, go ahead.

GERARD: They`re going to use Trade Adjustment Assistance to try and bring
in more members of Congress to be supportive of this trade deals. And to
Steelworkers Union, Trade Adjustment Assistance, is simply funeral to
insurance perhaps you`ve lost you job. So the more that they put out for
TAA that means the more jobs they think we`re going to lost.

KILDEE: And Ed, if they use training....

SCHULTZ: Mr. Kildee, do you -- yeah, go ahead.

KILDEE: I was just going to say, if they use Trade Adjustment Assistance
as inducement. What are they saying? I thought they said that these
agreements are going to increase employment. The notion of having Trade
Adjustment Assistance acknowledges that we`re going to lost jobs. And I
just don`t think that the Congress can see that responsibility. I resent
the notion that we`re supporting the status quo. Status quo is this
agreements being negotiated without us knowing what`s in them and then us
having a yes or no a vote on something that we never had a chance that you
even weight in on.

SCHULTZ: All right, gentlemen I`ve given America a lot to think about on
this issue, no doubt. I think the President is dead wrong on it
Congressman Dan Kildee, Congressman Peter DeFazio and President Leo Gerard
of the Steelworkers International Organization, great to have you gentlemen
with us tonight.

Coming up, new protest take hold across the country. Kerry Kennedy and
Michael Dyson join us to discuss the national movement towards greater
racial equality in our society.

But first the torture report. We are talking about the post 9/11
interrogation program and the damming new detail coming out this week. Is
it the right thing to do? We`ll talk about it. Well right back at the Ed
Show. Stay with us.


SCHULTZ: Welcome back to the Ed Show. Thanks for watching tonight.

Foreign governments and U.S. Intelligence Agencies are warning the release
of the Senate`s torture report code incite violence and put American
personnel overseas in danger. The 480 page executive summary details the
CIA`s used of torture under the Bush administration.

The investigation reportedly caused the American taxpayer $40 million over
the course of five years. It`s expected to release tomorrow.

Approximately 2,000 marines have been placed on high alert in and around
the Persian Gulf to protect U.S. embassies and interests.

NBC News`s Andrea Mitchell has more on the report.


ANDREA MITCHELL, NBC NEWS: The U.S. embassy in Egypt is one of the many on
alert today as Washington braces for the release of an explosive Senate
report on the CIA`s use of torture ordered by President Bush after 9/11.

One of those brief, the House Intelligence Committee Chairman.

have approach the government and said, "You do this, this will cause
violence and deaths." Our own intelligence community has assessed that
this will cause violence and deaths.

MITCHELL: The report is expected to accuse the CIA of lying repeatedly to
Congress, the White House, and the American people. It concludes that
torture, notably waterboarding used on three detainees, including Khalid
Sheikh Mohammed, did not produce results.

Former CIA leaders are already firing back.

MICHAEL HAYDEN: To say that we relentlessly, over an expanded period of
time lied to everyone about a program that wasn`t doing any good, that
beggars the imagination.

MITCHELL: Agency defenders say the program did help find Osama bin Laden
and also prevented other attacks. Defenders also claim CIA officials
briefed Congress repeatedly. And they say the Senate never interviewed any
of the officials named.

President Obama acknowledged the torture program last August.

OBAMA: We tortured some folks. We did some things that were contrary to
our values.


SCHULTZ: Joining me tonight Steve Clemons, MSNBC Contributor and Editor at
Large for The Atlantic.

Steve, good to have you with us tonight on this subject. I know that you
are involved in the research on a lot of this. Give us a breakdown of the
risk you think in releasing this.

And our Senate Democrats who are saying -- especially Senator Ron Wyden who
sits on the Intelligence Committee and there`s been there for a number of
years says that we have to release this, so it doesn`t happen again in the

What`s the upside, the downside Steve?

STEVE CLEMONS, THE ATLANTIC: Well thank you Ed. It`s great to be with

This report shows that at a dark time in American history we did dark
things. It was unimaginable in a way during the Cold War when we were
fighting the Soviet Union for us to do this sort of stuff because we`re
always trying to show the difference between what the Soviets would do then
and what we would do that we would respect rule of law, that we would
respect human rights, that we didn`t throw people in Dark Dungeons and
deprive them of all sorts of things that they would deserve. And this
report will document that the United States did do those things during the
Bush Administration.

People like Ron Wyden but also outgoing Senator Mark Udall, Dianne
Feinstein, but even some Republicans like John McCain have said that we
need to put this report out there because without doing that, would allow a
dark moment in our history to go without the punctuation point that it was
wrong to do and that we recognize that it was wrong to do.

And so yes, there are maybe -- whenever you reconcile nasty things with the
public record, there is a moment of potential shock and we may see in fact
some response around the world that says, you know, the United States has
not beacon on the hill that we thought it was and that we have to pay some

I hope that it doesn`t happen, but I think it`s wise that we`re careful.

That said, it is a far greater positive thing to put this report out and to
let Americans know that where many of us including myself at the time was
saying, it`s not healthy to have an unaccountable government engaged and
creating a national security state that not the Congress nor anyone else
has the ability to have oversight of.

SCHULTZ: If this is going to create targets overseas, is this the only way
we can handle this? The military has the saying on a need-to-know basis.
If we are people with checks and balances in the government and they`re
going to do something about it, is there any way we can get around by not
releasing this and correcting it?

CLEMONS: I don`t believe we can. I mean, this is a very, very dark
moment. We had the CIA. We`re not about it. The CIA was actually spying
on Dianne Feinstein`s staff with relation to this report, the executive
branch of government spying on the legislative branch of government.

So the notion of accountability in our former government, what the
democracy means, what human rights of people mean and when we are engage
within even a non-traditional combat rules, this is a very deep issue.

Jane Mayer, won the Pulitzer Prize for her book about Cheney and Bush
called "The Dark Side" that outlined a lot of these issues and things we
had. So this is a punctuation point that allows us to get some closure and
move forward, pass this very terrible moment in history and reminding the
executive brand of government. Do not wonder beyond those areas in which
you`re legally permitted to go.

So regrettably, I don`t see any way not to proceed with the publication of
this report, even though...


CLEMONS: ... it`s heavily redacted and I think they have taken a lot of
measures to trying to protect those people that might be alluded too in the

SCHULTZ: More discussion coming up on this.

Steve Clemons, The Atlantic, great to have you with us tonight. Appreciate
your time. Thank you.

CLEMONS: Thanks.

SCHULTZ: Still to come fighting against the chokehold of poverty. We`ll
talk about the intersection income and racial equality play in all of
these. We have a power pack rapid response panel coming up.

And later, in the two-minute drill, College Football Playoff, the line up,
I don`t like it. But next, I`m taking your questions, Ask Ed Live just
ahead. Stay with us. We`ll be right back on the Ed Show.


SCHULTZ: Welcome back to the Ed Show.

I appreciate all the questions coming in from our viewers in our Ask Ed
Live Segment.

Our first question tonight is from Dennis. He wants to know, "Have you
ever had any negative encounters with police?"

No, I haven`t. Honestly, I`ve never been arrested. I`ve never been
interrogated. I`ve never been shaken down, but I have to admit to you, I
definitely had my shares of speeding tickets. And it`s always yes or no
sir, yes ma`am, no ma`am out the window.

Next question is from Tina, "Do you think Republicans will shut down the
government?" That`s what`s (inaudible) question to say, no, I don`t. I
think they`re going to do all the posturing and all the -- they`re going to
fake it pretty good. Now, I don`t think they`re going to shut down the
government this time.

They`ve already got the House and Senate. They don`t want to get off on a
bad foot with the American people. They can only blame Obama for so much.

Stick around, Rapid Response Panel is next.

Market Wrap.

Stocks slide as falling oil prices hit energy shares. The Dow sheds 106
points, the S&P is off by 15, the Nasdaq ends down by 40 points.

Another sale off in crude was sunk more than 4 percent this session to
about $63 a barrel, a five-year low. Chevron, ExxonMobil and others, all
losing ground today.

And McDonald shares went down nearly 4 percent. The Fast-Food Giants
reported its biggest sales decline in more than a decade.

That`s it from CNBC, first in business worldwide.


SCHULTZ: Welcome back to the Ed Show.

Peaceful protest turned violent in Berkley, California over the weekend.
Over 400 protesters march in memory of Eric Garner and Michael Brown. Two
consecutive nights of demonstrations ended with vandalism. Officers used
teargas to disperse groups who shut down a highway.

And I believe I said on this program last week that you`re going to see
more professional athletes showing their solidarity for free speech.
That`s what happened.

Over the weekend, members of the NFL and now the NBA displayed Eric
Garner`s last words, "I can`t breath" on their apparel and gear.

President Obama addressed the unrest in interview with that.


OBAMA: We have to be persistent, because typically progress is in steps,
it`s in increments. You know, when you`re dealing with something as deeply
rooted as racism or bias in any society, you`ve got to have vigilance but
you have to recognize that it`s going to take some time and you just to
have be steady, so that you don`t give up when we don`t get all the way


SCHULTZ: Today, the Justice Department took new steps to tackle profiling
by agents.

Racial profiling has been off limits for federal agent since 2003. Now the
guidelines of expanded to factor such as religion, sexual orientation,
gender, and gender identity.

The protests are evolving into a social movement and a movement for social
justice in America. Now doubt.

Joining me tonight in our Rapid Response Panel Michael Eric Dyson,
Professor at Georgetown University and MSNBC Political Analyst and also
with us Kerry Kennedy, President of the Robert F. Kennedy Center for
Justice and Human Rights.

Kerry, good to have you with us tonight, both of you. Obviously, Dr. Dyson
with us quite often.

Kerry, poverty plays, I think a big role in this social injustice and the
incoming equality in America. How do we remedy that in the midst of this

KERRY KENNEDY, PRES. RFK CENTER: Well, you know, poverty is a big part of
this and we -- especially for African-Americans, their chance of living
poverty is multiple times that of white Americans, but it`s both in poverty
and it`s also in law enforcement and social justice across the board.

For instance, right now, 10 times as many white Americans as blacks used
drugs and yet -- or it`s rather five times as many whites as blacks used
drugs and yet a black American is 10 times more likely to be in prison for
drugs than a white American. So we see this across the board.

SCHULTZ: Michael, how does the President`s response to these protests
measure up in your opinion?


Look, I love the President. I`m a huge supporter of his, but he has got to
step up. He sounds like the opposition to Martin Luther King Jr. in
Birmingham when they cautioned King against moving too quickly and then
said that we must go gradually in incremental steps.

Martin Luther King Jr. listen to those seven white clergy men and one rabbi
and said, "Why we can`t wait?", wrote to Birmingham -- letter from
Birmingham jail.

So I know that President Obama is not a social profit but a President, but
the social profits response has to be, we can`t wait. Martin Luther King
Jr. said, "I refuse to take the drag of gradualism."

And I think President Obama was arguing for that, when indeed we have to
press more. We have to insist that the phrase that Mr. Obama used in
regard to Dr. King was the fierce urgency of now.

Dr. King met that about social resistance being press forward now and I
think the President has to understand this is the pace at which social
change occurs and though it`s deeply entrenched as he acknowledged, it also
has to be met by equally strong resistance on the part of those who want to
fight for justice.


Kerry, how does this compare to the 60s as you see it, in the work your
father did?

KENNEDY: Well, you know, I mean it`s really interesting because if you go
back and read my father`s speeches about being in riots in the 60s and race
relations in the 60s, it really has not changed all that much.

I mean what he was saying then holds so true now that you don`t have to
condone rioting to understand where it comes from and understand that anger
and that frustration. And he talked about that violence, you know, one
form of violence is lighting fires and shooting bullets, but in other form
of violent that`s equally destructive is the violence of institutions of
their failures to respond to people and the failure to respond to poverty
and to give people really a chance.

You can understand why people feel like they don`t have a shot in America
at raising their children in decency, giving them a good education, giving
them a good and decent job and those are some of the issues we really have
to address.

SCHULTZ: Dr. Dyson, we have some of the most visible athletes in the
country right now that are walking in lockstep with the protesters and
making statements. This is a very unique combination and that`s why I
asked Kerry about 60s as to what we`re seeing right now. What do you see
happening here? I mean, is just going to push the wheels of justice?

DYSON: I hope so. Look, back in the day you`re speaking of Jim Brown,
Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Hank Aaron, Althea Gibson, Wilma Rudolph, these were
noble athletes who understood that they belong to a broader group. And
then belongings to that broader group, they were representatives and voice
-- if you will, voice pieces and spokes people for them, by default,
because of their fame and their celebrity. They got into places that other
black people didn`t. Therefore, they felt a moral responsibility to

Now, the problem is that with today`s athletes of social conscious has been
siphoned off into social service, whatever (inaudible) cares and they talk
about what they do in terms of visiting hospitals. All of that is good but
it doesn`t deal with the fact that there are structural issues that Ms.
Kennedy has referred to that have to be addressed.


DYSON: And if they leverage their authority and fame in behalf of those
who were vulnerable and anonymous it will make a huge difference and I
celebrate them, it encourage them to keep moving.

KENNEDY: You know what shocking to me on this is that the Republicans are
condemning people for getting involved in this issue in our country. We
shouldn`t be discouraging athletes. We should be encouraging athletes. We
should be encouraging students. We should be encouraging Union members.
We should be encouraging every single American to exercise their democratic
rights and to be on the streets and saying we have to put an end to this
racial violence in our country and we have to have a deep and thorough talk
and action on race and poverty and all of the issues...


KENNEDY: ... that impact our lives.

SCHULTZ: And your organization Kerry, has done so many great things. The
auctions and full wing, it`s -- the big dinner is next week. We`re looking
forward to that.

Kerry Kennedy, thank you so much. Michael Eric Dyson, we will continue the
conversation. Thank you so much for joining us.

Coming up, disturbing new revelations about the University of Virginia rape
story. We`ll take a look at what this all means for survivors of sexual
assaults through out the country.

Keep it here. Well, right back.


SCHULTZ: Now, it`s time for the two minute drill. We`re down to four
teams of college football to see who the champion is going to be. New York
is going to be number two, Oregon is going to play number three Florida
State. Florida State shouldn`t be there. I don`t care how many games
they`ve won this year, they`re not as good as TCU. And number four, Ohio
State will go up against number one, Alabama, the Sugar Ball, good luck

Winners for these games are going to playing for the CFP national champion
game in Dallas on January 12.

TCU, somebody explain to me, how do you go from number three to number six.

Now, the committee seems a little bit confused on who they want one week
and who they think should be in the next week. So make the major criteria.
You have to win a conference championship. Let`s get it right for next
year. If you make the criteria, the main criteria that if you win the
conference champion, we got a better chance of getting in there, it`s going
to clear up all those other power ranking stuff that goes on.

As far as teams, team`s speed, shrink the schedule, all that stuff, you`ll
never convince me that TCU should not be in the top four and in that
playoff. I would have loved to have seen TCU take on Alabama.

That`s your two minute drill. We`re right back after this.


SCHULTZ: And finally tonight, circumstances surrounding Rolling Stone
alleged rape story at the University of Virginia are becoming uglier. New
details are giving the report and story less credibility.

One of the alleged rapists was not a member of the fraternity identified by
Jackie. Furthermore, the fraternal house she named did not host the party
on the night of her alleged assault.

The weekend, the magazine revised the language in an apology to emphasize
the fault is not with the victim.

On Friday, the magazine had written about discrepancies in Jackie`s
account. The story generated campus protest and vandalism of the
fraternity`s property. It prompted the University of Virginia President
Teresa Sullivan to suspend the activities of the universities more than 60
Greek organizations.

Sullivan said she was uphold (ph) by the story. She also asked for full
investigation by authorities.

National Greek Groups are responding. They are demanding the university
apologize for a rush to judgment and reinstate all fraternities. A lawyer,
who is representing Jackie, told the Washington Post, she and her client
are declining the comment beyond her interviews.

One the surface this looks like a possible case of bad journalism. The
consequences for women who are victims of sexual assault are far more

Joining me tonight is Terry O`Neill, Pres. of the National Organization for
Women, also with us tonight Zerlina Maxwell, Political Analyst and
Contributor to Great to have both of you with us.

Let`s start with you first, Zerlina. Isn`t this is much a horrible case of
journalism as it is anything else to start at there?

ZERLINA MAXWELL, POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, I think that this is a situation
in which Jackie was failed by Rolling Stone. I think that Rolling Stone
should have verified the account that was given to them just to cover their
own backs and to protect Jackie from what is now just really, really ugly
victim shaming and blaming and really disbelieving even though there is no
evidence at this moment that she made up the entire account. And as so
many experts and doctors will tell you, there are always going to be
discrepancies in an account because of the damage to the hippocampus of the
brain and many survivors have PTSD where that damage is done.

So I think that we really need to default to a compassion here, because
Jackie is person and has a greatly been failed by bad journalism by Rolling

SCHULTZ: Terry, does this kind of set new standards for the media in
reporting stories like this? Because if it goes really with no scrutiny,
what is this going to do to future victims?

think it sets new standards. I think Rolling Stone failed to utilize
standards that have existed within journalism for a very long time. But
what I`m seeing here is the rate denial machinery gearing up and getting
into -- and really moving in to actually destroy of the victim to engage in
exactly the kind of rape denialism that is part impartial frankly of rape

Rape culture is a huge problem on college campuses and what you see is the
national fraternities. These big huge powerful institutions are now coming
in, in order to isolate the victim, to shame the victim, to shot her down.

My hope is that we have -- we are on the brink of turning a corner and
undoing this kind of rape denial, rape culture.

SCHULTZ: But Zerlina, there clearly are discrepancies in the story.
There`s clearly discrepancies in what the victim has said. So what is that
leave us at this? Where does that leave us at this point?

MAXWELL: Well, I think it shows us yet again that this is really
complicated issue and I think that it is not common that there are rampant
amounts of false allegations where women are simply going in and making
things up.

I think Jackie`s story is -- reminds me of so many other stories where
there are accounts that don`t match up and there are discrepancies, but
again, like I said before, that is the result of PTSD and the trauma that
goes along with sexual assaults.


MAXWELL: So that`s just so common. And I think it`s unfair that, you
know, we go on the hunt for these discrepancies in the victim`s account but
we don`t do that same level of examination of the alleged rapist account on
event. And so I think that we need to do that and then.

SCHULTZ: Well they go on a hunt -- yeah. They go on the hunt for it
because defense attorneys are going to do everything they possibly can.

MAXWELL: Oh yes, right.

SCHULTZ: . to make sure that those who are accused are going to.

MAXWELL: And I think that.

SCHULTZ: . you know, be set free by the truth.

MAXWELL: Well Ed, I think that for me, this is where that -- there are two
tracks here. On the one hand, we`re talking about innocent to proven
guilty within a legal standard. In the world though, since none of us are
judge and jury, I think that all of us as individuals and as a collective
society, the collective we can default to empathy, and so we don`t
necessarily have to.


MAXWELL: . attack Jackie by default.


MAXWELL: I think that`s what I`m trying to say.

SCHULTZ: OK. I get that. And Zerlina, how does Rolling Stone make this

MAXWELL: I think that they have to be completely transparent. I think
that they need to tell the public exactly what led to this, you know, this
problem that they`re having in this moment where it looks they haven`t been
completely forth coming. It looks like Jackie asked according to the
Washington Post is on reporting that she asked to be taking out of the
story and they didn`t abide by her demands to be taken out.


MAXWELL: And that is just completely unethical and wrong. So I think that
there -- it`s a lot of questions here unanswered.

SCHULTZ: Terry O`Neill, where the universities go from here on dealing
with this? What has to change if anything?

O`NEILL: Well, I think the first thing that has to be done is that women
who come forward, saying that they have been sexually assaulted, they need
to be given the innocent until proven guilty benefit of the doubt. We
don`t know that the way bringing chemistry works in the rush of fight,
flight, freeze hormones that happened during an extraordinary trauma like
rape can really interfere with a victim`s ability to tell a coherent story.

So innocent until proving guilty must be applied to the victim. Currently,
it`s just the opposite. The victim is accused of being a liar
presumptively because of the innocent until proven guilty that`s applied to
the perpetrator. So we need to get -- we need to somehow balance things

The universities need to understand how rape culture works on. I think
it`s really important to understand that within six months of a sexual
assault many rape victims who at first are believed by their friends and
supported by their friends, within six months the friends have disappeared.
The perpetrator has marshaled all of his defenders and they`re now being to
attack and isolate and exclude her.

The vast majority of rape victims never finish college, the ones who are
rape on campuses. And the vast majority of rapists are able to finish
college. That`s got to change.

SCHULTZ: All right, Terry O`Neill, Zerlina Maxwell, great to have both of
you with us tonight. I appreciate your time.

That is the Ed Show. I`m Ed Schultz.

Politics Nation with Reverend Al Sharpton starts right now.


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