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All In With Chris Hayes, Monday, December 22nd, 2014

Read the transcript from the Monday show

Guest: Eric Adams, Ta-Nehisi Coates, Marc Rogers, Marq Claxton, Redditt
Hudson, Peter Moskos


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN --

MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO (D), NEW YORK: We have to move forward.

HAYES: The public grieving continues in New York after the murder of two
NYPD officers. The mayor calls for a suspension of protests and goes after
the media.

DE BLASIO: What are you guys going to do? Are you going to keep dividing

HAYES: Tonight, more on the suspect, the police officers he killed, and
the fight between New York`s police union and Mayor de Blasio.

BILL BRATTON, NYPD COMMISSIONER: Can you point out to me one mayor that
has not been battling with the police unions?

HAYES: Then, as the Internet mysteriously goes dark in Pyongyang, what do
we really know about whether or not North Korea is behind the hacking of


HAYES: ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

In what maybe the most difficult moment in his term so far, New York Mayor
Bill de Blasio attempted to lead the city in public mourning today, with
the two NYPD officers who are murdered over the weekend. This morning, De
Blasio and his wife, along with Police Commissioner Bill Bratton visited
with the families of Officers Wenjian Liu and Rafael Ramos who were
ambushed in their patrol car in Brooklyn late Saturday afternoon.

Now, at a press conference today with Commissioner Bratton and NYPD
leadership, the mayor expressed solidarity with the families and the city`s


DE BLASIO: The attack on these two officers, the assassination of these
two officers, was an attack on the city of New York as a whole, on every
one of us, on our values, on our democracy. We cannot tolerate such
attacks. Can I just ask everyone in the season that is supposed to be a
season of understanding and joy -- remember the meaning of the season.
But, first and foremost, remember what these families are going through.
Put them first.


HAYES: The mayor`s remarks today come against the backdrops of weeks of
protests here in New York against police brutality. And, as the mayor
faces an open revolt by rank-and-file members of the nation`s largest
police department on Saturday night, as police and officials gathered at
the hospital, the slain officers have been taken, several officers turned
their backs on the mayor as he passed by.

The head of the city`s biggest and most influential police union went even


blood on many hands tonight. Those that incited violence on the street
under the guise of protest that tried to tear down what New York City
police officers do every day. That blood on the hands starts on the steps
of city hall in the office of the mayor.


HAYES: Two officers were shot through the window of their patrol car late
Saturday afternoon on a busy intersection in the Bedford-Stuyvesant
neighborhood of Brooklyn. Their assailant has been identified as Ismaaiyl
Brinsley, 28, a man with an extensive criminal record and a suspected
history of mental illness. Brinsley started the day in a suburb of
Baltimore where he allegedly shot his ex-girlfriend, Shaneka Thompson, an
Air Force reservist, remains in critical but stable condition and is
expected to survive.

He then took a bus to New York, made his way to Brooklyn, according to
police, telling two men on the street corner to watch what he was about to
do before firing on the two police officers four times at point blank
range, and then running into a nearby subway station where he took his own

Brinsley had previously been arrested at least 19 times. He spent two
years in prison for gun possession. Police had relatives told them he had
a history of undiagnosed mental illness and had tried to hang himself a

According to police, he left a trail of anti-government postings on social
media. On Saturday, before carrying out the attack, he`s believed to have
posted on Instagram, quote, "I`m putting wings on pigs today. They take
one of ours, let`s take two of theirs. #shootthepolice, #RIPEricGarner,

This marks the fourth targeted attack on police officers in this country
over the past year, including the shooting in Las Vegas by two individuals
linked to the anti-government, sovereign citizen movement, the sniper-style
killings by police by Eric Frein in Pennsylvania, and the attack on the
group of New York City police officers by an apparently deranged man with a
hatchet just two months ago.

In the week of the shooting this week, Mayor De Blasio today called for a
temporary halt to the protest that have gripped the city over the past
several weeks.


DE BLASIO: I`m asking everyone, this is across the spectrum to put aside
protests, put aside demonstrations until these funerals are passed. Let`s
focus just on these families and what they have lost.


HAYES: At a press conference yesterday, Eric Garner`s mother called on
protesters not to commit violence in her son`s name.


GWEN CARR, MOTHER OF ERIC GARNER: I`m standing here in sorrow about losing
those two police officers. That was definitely not our agenda. We are
going in peace.

And anyone who is substantial doubting with us, we want you to not Eric
Garner`s name for violence, because we are not about that. These two
police officers lost their life senselessly.


HAYES: And Garner`s youngest daughter was spotted visiting the makeshift
memorial that has sprung up where the officers were killed, saying she
wanted to show solidarity with their families.

In an interview on "The Today Show" this morning, Police Commissioner
Bratton said the tensions in the city are the worst he`s seen since the
1970s. But he hopes this will be what he called a change moment.


BRATTON: When I first came in to policing, my first ten years were around
this type of tension. Who would have thought deja vu all over again, that
we`ll be back where we were 40-some odd year ago. But we`re in a change
moment, I think, is a term here in the United States. And the idea is to
take out of this crisis, find opportunities to move it forward.


HAYES: Joining me now, Eric Adams. He`s a borough president of Brooklyn,
New York, and former NYPD police captain.

Thank you for being here.


HAYES: I was born and raised in the city, and, you know, came of age in
the early 1990s, period of intense tension, there`s a Crown Heights riots.
I`ve never, in my lifetime, seen it as bad as it feels. And at this
moment, this horrible, senseless murder, it just felt like it couldn`t have
come at a worst time in terms of that.

ADAMS: That`s why I`m extremely optimistic because throughout my law
enforcement career, I have seen and witness moments like this, where`s
extremely turbulent. We feel as though we`re not going to get past it.
But in reality we do.

And that`s what`s great. That`s why the New York City Police Department,
they are called New York City`s finest. They`re going to answer the radio
calls. They`re going to respond regardless of the political atmosphere.

HAYES: That tape that we`ve been playing, the officers turning their
backs, someone who has spent several decades as one of the member of the
New York City Police Department. What`s your reaction to that moment?

ADAMS: It should not have happened. I think it was a mistake. I think
that Pat Lynch and the other union members are really concerned about what
their members. But we should never turn our back to the symbol of what the
mayor represents. That office represents the people of the city and we
should never turn our backs to the people of the city.

HAYES: Yes. It almost seems, like, to use a metaphor here, which isn`t
quiet perfect. But the sort of principle of civilian control of military
context. Than, you know, ultimately, the police are answerable to the
mayor. I mean, he`s the democratically elected person that runs it and
whatever relationship issues they have, bargaining, objections to policy,
that fundamentally, seems like a really important and sacrosanct principle
in terms of how this city is governed.

ADAMS: Yes, it is. And they are still police officers. They are still
responsible of having a certain level of decorum on respecting the office
of mayor and what it means. You could have philosophical disagreements on
the process to use to police. But, in reality, the mayor is in charge of
how we police the city of New York.

HAYES: Are your surprised by Mr. Lynch`s comments in the blood on the
hands they start in city hall?

ADAMS: Yes, I think, Pat, right now, he and all of the officers are
feeling pain.

HAYES: Anguish, yes.

ADAMS: Right. That pain needs to start a purpose. And the blood on the
hands of a sick person who carry out this action. And those who I believe
are continuing the over-proliferation of handguns, because the same blood
that is on the hands that we see, what happens to these two officers, this
happened to young people all over the country. And that is our purpose.
We can`t have displaced anger. We`ve got to have proper place,
implementation of good police practices.

HAYES: You were out there. You led a vigil I believe. It was on Sunday


HAYES: I was down by the scene last night, it was a very moving, very
intense scene.

What are you hearing from police officers? Obviously, you spent your
adulthood life inside that department. You`ve still got friends and
colleagues and people that are your constituents in Bed-Stuy, in Brooklyn.
What are you hearing from police?

ADAMS: Thank you. After the assassination of those two officers, many
police officers felt that the community didn`t care, that vigil showed them
the different, multi-culture, multi-ethnic group came out and said, we are
also mourning with you.

HAYES: Yes, I was struck last night by that part of the scene.

The mayor today called for basically a reprieve, a pause in protesting.
There`s been some response from some protesters. I think that`s
essentially inappropriate. Their argument is, look, we have a vision for
policy changes we want to see happen. We have nothing to do with this
awful murder, we renounced it, we condemned it, but we still have an agenda
we want to pursue.

What do you think of the mayor`s call?

ADAMS: To those who protests, there are fringe elements in every movement.
And so, there are those who believe, no matter what happened, is some
outlook that we don`t need police. There are those of us who understand we
do need police and we appreciate police. That pause is important.

That`s what I said over the weekend. This is not saying stop your
righteous pursuit for police reform, but we have families who are grieving.
Let`s respect those grieving families and come together.

HAYES: OK. Eric Adams, borough president of Brooklyn, thank you very
much. Appreciate it.

ADAMS: Thank you.

HAYES: Even before the shootings this weekend, the police unions have not
been a big fan of Mayor De Blasio. He ran for office on a platform
preventing the very controversial stop and frisk practice, which former
police commissioner described yesterday as an anti-police agenda. And ever
since protests erupted in New York over the non-indictment of the policeman
who put Eric Garner in a fatal chokehold, many officers have felt the mayor
took sides against them. Many took issue with De Blasio`s description of
warning his biracial son Donte about the dangers he may face in
interactions with New York City police. And some said they felt betrayed
when he used the word "alleged", referring to an assault on two NYPD
lieutenants during the protests in the Brooklyn Bridge.

Just last week, the Patrolmen`s Benevolent Association encouraged members
to sign a waiver barring the mayor from attending their funeral in the
event of their death.

In the wake of Saturday`s horrific murder, the tensions appear to have
escalated into open revolt. Multiple union chiefs have joined the
Patrolmen`s Benevolent Association`s Patrick Lynch, saying there`s blood on
the mayor`s hands, including the Sergeants Benevolent Association, blaming
De Blasio in a tweet. This weekend, a memo purporting to be from the BPA,
though the organization has disavowed it, circulated on Twitter, describing
the NYPD as a, quote, "wartime" police department, instructing officers to,
quote, "Absolutely no enforcement action in the form of arrests and or
summonses is to be taken unless absolutely necessary."

Joining me now, MSNBC contributor, Michael Steele, former chair of the
Republican National Committee.

Michael, I want to talk to you because police unions seem to be a sort of
interesting institution. And I understand how upset, anguished, grief-
stricken police officers are in New York.


HAYES: But what is your reaction to the kind of rhetoric we`ve been seeing
from the police unions here in New York.

STEELE: I think it`s unnecessarily hot. It`s obviously filled with a lot
of emotion. It`s also I think relating back to whatever tensions were
brewing in the mayoral race a year ago, and I think those tensions are
still playing, being played out. There`s a clear distrust of this mayor by
the police. The mayor`s rhetoric has not done anything to create a sav
(ph) for that, to sort of calm that and to bring the parties together.

I think, today, in this press conference, and certainly in visiting the
families of these two police officers, is a process, is a step that he`s
trying to take to begin that healing. But its` going to take a lot more.
It`s going to take I think more face to face, one on one, away from
cameras, away from protests, away from heated moments, where the police
union and the mayor can sit down and talk about how they need each other.

The communities need these two groups, these two entities, these two
individual to work together, because that is the basis for, you know, all
types of community policing. It begins in the mayor`s office and it ends
on the neighborhoods and the streets of New York. And you`ve got to make
sure that that works. And if it doesn`t, you`re going to have more

HAYES: I`ve been struck. I mean, we`ve had the representative of
Patrolmen`s Benevolent Association in Cleveland on the show last week,
while I was away, Ari was sitting in, you were here for that. We`ve had on
Jeffrey Ward (ph), a business manager in St. Louis, for the patrolmen
Benevolent Association there.

I`ve just been struck by the kind of unanimity and uniformity of the kind
of rhetoric we`ve seen from the police unions in these very kind of
polarized, intense moments. It just seems to give no quarter, broke no
nuance at this kind of very, very maximalist approach to dealing with what
are manifestly to everyone watching, sensitive issues.

STEELE: Well, yes, let`s keep in mind, from the police perspective and I
agree with this perspective to a certain extinct, they`re out there on the
front lines every day. The last thing they need is for their integrity and
for their practices to come under questions. But that`s part of being in
this sort of pluralistic democratic society. We do that, and it`s part of
how we make ourselves better.

Just because you wear the badge, you`re not above the law, certainly. And
every police officer knows. So, just trying to find this area where police
feel that what they do is respected and appreciated and the citizens feel
that what the police are doing doesn`t infringe on their rights and that
the system isn`t working against them, that police are getting special
treatment as we`ve seen alleged in certain cases recently, that other
citizens wouldn`t get.

This is the tension that I think that the mayor and the police association
in New York, quite honestly, Chris, around the country. New York is not
immune from this. You know, they`re not alone in this. Other
jurisdictions aren`t immune to it. So, this is a growing problem as we`ve
seen the militarization of our police forces since 9/11, a host of other
factors have now changed that dynamic in a relationship between police and
the people.

HAYES: Michael Steele, thank you very much for your time. I really

STEELE: You`ve got it, buddy.

HAYES: All right. This sometimes reflexive mistrust between police
officers and the community is due, in large part, to the police force
looking nothing like the people they police. But in New York, the officers
are as diverse or almost as diverse as the city they`re sworn to protect.
That story and Ta-Nehisi Coats, next.


HAYES: Coming up a little later, did the U.S. have anything to do with
North Korea`s Internet going completely dark today or is this all some
crazy coincidence? We`re going to talk about that.

And stick up, next up, Ta-Nehisi Coates will be here.


HAYES: There`s a growing memorial in the corner of Brooklyn`s Myrtle and
Tompkins Avenue in memory of NYPD police officers Wenjian Liu and Rafael
Ramos were shot and kill right there over the weekend. I went over there
last night to pay my respects. The scene was intense and tremendously sad.

It was also remarkably diverse. I saw police officers who are coming to
make a kind of sad pilgrimage from all over the story, black, white, Latino
and Asian, and New Yorkers of all ages in colors, predominantly, as far as
I can tell by the time I was there, from the people I talked to, folks in
the neighborhood, Bed-Stuy, which is predominantly black.

This kind of quintessentially New York scene.

And the stories of these two officers, Ramos and Liu, are also
quintessentially New York, and they reflect an increasingly diverse NYPD,
looks more and more like the city it`s policing.

Officer Rafael Ramos, 40-year-old married father of two, joined the police
force just two years ago. Before that, he worked as a school safety
officer and spent over a decade as a driver of the shipping company, DHL,
according to "The New York Times". His friends and neighbors described
Ramos as a proud officer, but also, quote, "more as a man who shoveled
sidewalks after snowstorms or took his two boys to nearby Highland Park to
play basketball, always with a smile on his face.

After hearing news of his father`s death, Ramos` 13-year-old son Jaden
wrote on Facebook, quote, "It`s horrible that someone gets shot dead just
for being a police officer. Everyone says they hate the cops, but they are
the people they call for help. I always love you and I will never forget

Office Wenjian Liu, 32-year-old, 7-year veteran of the force was married
just three months.

Earlier this evening, his wife spoke publicly for the first time since her
husband`s death.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Liu family would like to express our gratitude
and appreciation to the police department, our neighbors, the entire New
York City community, friends and co-workers for the help and support they


HAYES: Liu`s family emigrated to the U.S. from mainland China, according
to "The New York Times". His father irons the garment factory.

A neighbor recalled to the paper asking Officer Liu why he decided to
become an NYPD officer and he responded, quote, "I know that being a cop is
dangerous but I must do it. If I don`t do it and you don`t do it, then who
is going to do it?"

New York City, in this crucial respect, among many others, is not Ferguson,
Missouri. It bears no resemblance with Ferguson in terms of the often
cited gap between the racial makeup there of the police force and
population it polices. In fact, in the 1990s, the NYPD was much, much

Today, it looks very different. NYPD`s class of 2014 was its most diverse
in history. Right now, just over 51 percent of NYPD officers are white,
while just over 33 percent of the city`s population is white, according to
the most recent census. Almost 16 percent compared to 23 percent of the
population. About 27 percent are Hispanic, while 29 percent of the
population identified as such, just over 6 percent of NYPD are Asian,
compared to almost 13 percent of the population.

All this a reminder that in New York, the tensions between the police and
the people they police and, now, as of this moment, the grief shared by
police and the people they police, doesn`t run neatly along some line of
racial separation, or another way of saying, the police are us, what all
that implies.

Joining me now, Ta-Nehisi Coates, national correspondent with "The
Atlantic". A correspondent of "The Atlantic" who wrote about this very
theme today in this "Blue Lives Matter" piece.

It was just so striking to go by there last night, because it felt -- the
scene there felt very removed, very different than what I saw in Ferguson
and very removed from the rhetoric that we`ve been talking in which the way
that I think we`ve talked about it on the national level is as racism at
the sort of personal level.



HAYES: That`s right. It`s a racist cop who does a bad thing to a person
who is black and that`s the kind of point of conflict. And what you saw
last night was that, you know, this is a very diverse force and the people
in the neighborhood were mourning and full of sorrow. And that doesn`t
touch what the institutional and social factors are the produced the
condition under which people have had a lot of frustrations and complaints
against it.

COATES: I mean, that`s exactly it. I just got to say, it`s quite moving,
hearing that officer`s son and his wife talked. That was incredible. That
was the first time I`ve seen that. So I`m putting that aside and putting
my game face on.

No, you`re exactly right. I think what diversity buys you is a very
different kind of protest movement here than what you saw in Ferguson.
That`s not to delegitimize what happened in Ferguson. But obviously, the
situation is a lot different.

I think, in terms of getting to the institutional forces, part of the
problem is that we, when we talk about safety of communities, we
automatically talk about criminal justice. That`s our way of making
community safe. And we send police officers into these neighborhoods to,
you know, to account for them: I`m thinking of the killing of Akai Gurley
where the light was out in the hallway.

HAYES: This is the man in Brooklyn shot, the Brooklyn housing project.

COATES: Right.

HAYES: Who was shot in a stairwell of a housing project where the light
was out.

COATES: Right. So we began with the question of, what was the officer
doing at the time? Well, wait, why was the light on? Why was the light
out, you know?

Like when we talk about safety, we have this inability right now to go
beyond a criminal justice framework in terms of making communities safe.

HAYES: In your contention, I feel like in the times that we talked about
this, you and I then emailing back and forth and talking and on the show as
well, to look at it in the context of we have the criminal justice system
in totality, that we have created as a Democratic populist. That there`s a
kind of law and order politics that are created that we have voted for
people that are past policy that are produced the thing that we have now
that`s not just on police officers.

COATES: Right. And so, we have the take some responsibility for that?
This is, you know, we don`t, you know, thank God, live in a military you
know, dictatorship. We are not ruled by junta. We have all sorts of
issues with our democracy and making it fair. But the police -- as I was
saying today, the police department is one of the top three most trusted
institutions in America. I think we have to be very, very clear about
that, as disturbing as seeing Eric Garner choked to death on camera was.
The fact of the matter is as a people, as Americans, endorse criminal
justice solutions for making community safe. Having said, I do want to
complicate what I wrote today. I don`t know how democratic it is for
people who live in the actual neighborhoods.

HAYES: That`s right.

COATES: So, there`s a way of applying criminal justice, as I said, a much
larger level, it doesn`t necessarily represent the neighborhood itself.

HAYES: And that, to me is the full question here, is that people, do
relationship between the citizen and police officer is a relationship
between someone that you feel like you`re bound to in some kind of
contract? Or you are simply the subject of their whim?

COATES: Right, right. Well, I mean --

HAYES: It`s the latter that has been so problematic.

COATES: So, for instance, when you played that tape today, when they
turned their back on Bill de Blasio, that is why that is so frightening,
it`s completely frightening. Because the police department are not the
only representative of the people, obviously, so is mayor, too. So, when
you turn your back that way, to the mayor, to the democratically-elected
mayor, what does that pretend?

HAYES: Right.

COATES: You know, who are you actually bound to? So --

HAYES: Right. And it`s that feeling of not being bound or not accountable
that has been the source of so much anger.

COATES: Right, right, right.

HAYES: Can I just ask you on a personal level, when I check my phone in an
airport on my way back here from vacation and saw the Instagram of this guy
who shot and killed these cops saying, RIP Eric Garner, RIP Mike Brown, it
made me sick to my stomach.

COATES: Right.

HAYES: What was your reaction in that moment?

COATES: I had little or no reaction to that. I don`t -- I just think
that`s particularly significant. As far as I am concerned, at any moment,
any person can take, you know, any sort reason and declared as their reason
to go out and do violence.

The fact of the matter is, he commenced that spate of violence by shooting
a woman. That was actually, you know --

HAYES: He started his day by shooting his ex-girlfriend.

COATES: Right, right, right. And I know there`s also a debate about how
do protesters deal with this. Does this represent the protests or not?
And my question immediately is, why does it matter? Why does it matter?
Either we want to live in a society where Eric Garner is choked to death
for attempting to sell cigarettes or we don`t? Either we want to live in a
society where, you know, 11-year-old, 12-year-old children, like Tamir
Rice, are shot down or we don`t. Either we want to live in a society where
Akai Gurley is walking, you know, at the hallway at his housing project and
is shot down or we don`t.

This is a totally, totally separate issue. And I just -- I get really
frustrated thinking about how the conversation is being diverted away from
what is the central question.

HAYES: Ta-Nehisi Coates, always a pleasure.

COATES: Thanks so much. Thanks for having me.

HAYES: All right. As North Korea continues to deny that they`re behind
the cyber attack on Sony Pictures, many cyber experts believe them. And
one of those people will join us, coming up.



HAYES: Big news today from New York Congressman Michael Grimm bookending
what has been well quite an eventful year.


MICHAEL SCOTTO, NY1 REPORTER: Since we have you here, we haven`t had the
chance to kind of talk about some of the.

REP. MICHAEL GRIMM, (R), NEW YORK: I`m not speaking about anything that`s
off topic. This is only about the president.

SCOTTO: But what about.

GRIMM: Thank you.

SCOTTO: All right. So, Congressman Michael Grimm does not want to talk
about some of the allegations concerning his campaign finances. We wanted
to get him on camera on that but he, as you saw, refuse to talk about that.
Back to you.

GRIMM: Let me be clear to you.


GRIMM: If you ever do that to me again, I`ll throw you off this (beep)


HAYES: That was in January. Republican Representative Michael Grimm of
Staten Island caught on camera physically threatening a reporter who have
the nerve to asked about a campaign finance probe. The Congressman also
said he would break the reporter in half "like a boy."

In April, Grimm was indicted on 20 counts of tax fraud. As this handy
Washington Post flowchart points out, the feds alleged that Grimm run a
health food store called Healthalicious before joining Congress, hid
hundreds of thousand of dollars in payroll taxes from the government. And
despite the charges, in November, the -- well, energetic congressman from
New York, managed to retain his House seat, but he may not make it to a
third term.

Law enforcement official today telling NBC news that Grimm will plead
guilty to one count of tax evasion tomorrow in federal count. Speaker
Boehner declined to comment on today`s development, but as that New York
One reporter will tell you, it`s a long way down from the balcony.


HAYES: In Asia, North Korea apparently has no internet tonight, as in the
entire country, presumably that really means the government has been
knocked offline, why? Well, we know the day began with a new statement
from North Korea denying involvement in this Sony hacking but threatening a
larger attack against U.S.

A statement from the stat--run Korean central new agency does hail (ph) the
hackers who leaked that usually damaging throve of data from Sonny
Pictures, and then threatened violence against movie goers prompting the
studio to cancel a the plan Christmas day released of its filming
interview, a comedy depicting a plot to kill North Korean leader Kim Jung
U, a plot

The statement dismissed the FBI`s claims that can prove that North Korea
was in fact behind the attack and it said the countries real target is not
a single movie studio but quote "all the citadels of the U.S imperialists."
Statement specifically references the White House and the Pentagon and says
North Korea is prepared to put blow up those citadels.

Separately, on the state run television, North Korea dismissed U.S. claims
and its capabilities is "groundless slander," and said the U.S. would face
serious consequences if it did not agree to a joint investigation into the
hack, a position the U.S. today called absurd.

Well North Korea is retching up, it`s rhetoric, President Obama is seeking
to deescalate.


OBAMA: I don`t think it was an act of war, I think there it was an active
cyber vandalism that was very costly, very expensive, we take it very
seriously. We will respond proportionally as I said.


HAYES: Today, a U.S official confirmed to NBC news that there was an
internet outrage cutting North Korea off in the rest of the world. But
second official strongly denied any U.S role, regular citizens in North
Korea of f course are not really online those some of the countries elite
do have internet access. State department deputy spokesperson Marie Harp
was asked about the outrage this afternoon.


discuss, you know, publically operational details about the possible
response options or comments on those kinds of reports in anyway, except to
say that as we implement our responses, some will be seen, some may not be


HAYES: A lawyer for Sony Pictures they`ll me the President on Sunday. The
studio does planned to distribute the now infamous Interview movie, thought
it does not know whether or how it will do so.

Meanwhile, the Republican National Committee has called upon theater change
to play the movie.

Today, Congressman Brad Sherman sent Sony a letter asking them to screen
the film at the capital with of members of Congress. An act he said would
demonstrate the U.S Congress` support in the freedom of speech.

Now North Korea has claimed that it wasn`t involved in the hack is pretty
easy to dismiss, especially with the FBI saying it has proven its
involvement. But here`s the thing, there where some very smart people out
there. Computer security experts and hackers with no allegiance in North
Korea, no dog in this fight, who said they just aren`t necessarily buying
North Korea to this either.

Joining me now as one of those people, Marc Rogers, a cyber security
expert, principal security researcher at CloudFlare, a leading internet
security company.

All right. So Marc what -- I read your post -- there`s been a bunch of
post in this genre of folks who basically are looking at the available
evidence and saying I don`t quit buy it, why not?

MARC ROGERS, CYBER SECURITY EXPERT: Well, first, thanks for having me.
The problem we have is well there is evidence that`s lowly mounting, one
evidence that has been presented so far is really not very conclusive. The
FBI notice, they pushed out hinges on three pieces of evidence which are
best speculative.

There is no smoking gun that`s been found so far, and the trust to their
arguments seems to hinge around, first of all, the malware that was found,
used these bad guys when they attacked Sony. They`re saying has links to
other piece of malware that was seen in 2012 and 2013, and that this were
known North Korean actions, and therefore the similarities mean this is
probably also North Korea. But the reality is if you look at those
particular pieces, one called Shamoon, and the other one called Dark
Seoul, it was by no means concluded that those where North Koream

In fact, there was a lot of speculation around them that they could have
been anything from a rogue gang of South Korean hackers to Chinese hackers
for hire.

So the other evidence that they present is based around the internet
addresses used. Well, internet addresses are not a fixture, they`re not a
fixed thing. They`re an address that gets assigned to a server, sometimes,
they can have a very long life where the server doesn`t move, but sometimes
they can have a very short life.

And the addresses themselves don`t tend to be the interesting thing. It
tends to be what is running behind the address that`s interesting. And
when we took a look at the addresses of the FBI are pointing forward as
interesting, what we found was the vast majority of them are actually
public proxies.

And so the -- to the layman, a public proxy is just a gateways that is used
by anyone who wants to hide their connection or make it look like they`re
coming from somewhere else.

HAYES: So let me ask you this, Marc, because this to me seems the key
thing, right? I guess my question is if someone is sophisticated enough or
some entity of people are sophisticated enough to pull off what was pulled
off in Sony, where it seems like a fairly remarkable achievement from a
hacking perspective, are they sophisticated enough to cover their steps
such that it would be essentially impossible or extremely difficult to find
them and or to embed things in the evidence to suggest that it was North
Korea even if it wasn`t actually North Korea?

ROGERS: Absolutely. And that`s the name of the game these days. Lots of
these attacks that you see attributed to folks like China, China today is a
-- the average hacker knows that if they want to lose the law enforcement,
what you do is you is you root your attack through China and there`s a
pretty good chance if someone will see a Chinese IP address and go, "Oh,
that was the Chinese government."

And they know with history, what happens when people say that was a Chinese
government is that the investigation stops because well, if it`s a nation`s
state, there`s nothing more that can be done.

HAYES: Marc Rogers, thank you very much, really appreciate.

Three former police officers join me to talk about the state of American
police work coming up.


HAYES: Earlier this year, more than 60,000 people gathered in New York
Central Park for the Global Poverty concert. I was there. That`s me right
there. I`m stage with, you know, Jay-Z and Beyonce, I mean not at the same
time, the same stage, but yes -- it was all right.

The main goal of the concert was to raise awareness and push governments to
change policies to ensure access to clean water and sanitation from more
than 2 billion people without it worldwide.

And last week, U.S. Congress actually did something concrete to take a step
closer to that goal. When the Water for the World Act passed the U.S.
Senate, bills meant to strengthen government programs to ensure that water
aid get to countries which need it most and increases the reporting and
tracking to ensure the aid is being used effectively.

No small deal, the good bill passed from the House and the Senate, so a tip
of the cap to our much more maligned properly so, U.S. Congress. Of
course, it also makes you wonder what else we can get pass if we could just
get Jay-Z on board.


HAYES: Saturday`s murder of two New York City Police Officers comes at a
moment of probably the most intense scrutiny of American policing, and
protests against police brutality that we`ve seen in a generation, at least
since the fall out from the Rodney King beating at the hands of LAPD
officers in 1991.

In the last several months since Ferguson, we`ve seen a nationwide movement
directed toward police accountability and police abuse. Partially in
response, there have been voices rising in police departments, particularly
among police unions, expressing a belief that police are being unfairly
persecuted with the chorus of criticism, that the justice system with about
lack of accountability amount to nothing more than a prevailing anti-cop
attitude that some pretty prominent law enforcement voices are more or less
straight up blaming for this weekend`s horrific murders.

So, we went ahead and talk to some foreign police officers about some
fundamental truth about police work here in America in this very front

Joining me now, Marq Claxton, director of Black Law Enforcement Alliance.
He served as 20 years police officer right here in New York City. Redditt
Hudson, chair of the ETHICS project. Former officer in the St. Louis
Police Department, and Peter Moskos, associate professor at John Jay
College Criminal Justice, former officer of the Baltimore City Police
Department. We`ll get their reaction in this weekend`s new after the


HAYES: All right. Joining me now, Marq Claxton, director of Black Law
Enforcement Alliance, served as 20 years police officer here at New York
City. Redditt Hudson, chairman and former officer of the St. Louis Police
Department. And at the table here, Peter Moskos, former officer of the
Baltimore City Police Department.

Peter, we`ll start with you at your table here, your reaction to the Mayor
today kind of -- all eyes have been on him. This relationship has been so
fraught, tensions have been so high in this city. Then you get this news
which is just about the worst news that any commissioner can get, any mayor
could get, any family can get obviously and he.


HAYES: . any citizen can get. He, today, went out and did a number of
public appearances, what was your reaction in today?

MOSKOS: I think there was a lot on the line at that press conference. I
mean I was waiting for it, I think a lot of people were -- I thought both
he and the commissioner did a great job. Look, some people, some cops are
always going to hate de Blasio, he`s liberal, they`re not. I don`t think
there`s anything you can do about that.

But what he can do is best. And he said the right things today, he seems
sincere. He defended the NYPD, he properly showed respect to the killed
officers. And he defended the right of protesters, that`s the New York I
want to live in.

Marq, you were here for a while and you were a member of the department
during some very, very fraught periods in this department`s history. How
does right now compare?

MARQ CLAXTON, FORMER NYPD. OFFICER: Well, I think, you know, those who may
not have an understanding of the history of the NYPD, especially as it`s
relates to the Mayor and the police unions, this is pretty much power (ph)
for the cause. I think what is -- has exacerbated this situation is the
national attention that is surrounding the push for, you know, justice
reform, I think that has exacerbated it.

But if you examine the police unions and their response to the Mayor in `92
which happened to be David Dinkins, when the police department themselves
had a riot at City Hall, the police had a riot at City Hall lead by then
candidate Rudy Giuliani, he was the same one who running (ph) its mouth
right now. If you look at what they -- how they felt about Rudy Giuliani
and even some of the strategies are the same.

The using of denial of funeral opportunities for the Mayor suggesting that
these things don`t hold water, generally speaking. The police will always
be the police and regardless even of what their union may encourage, they
know what their obligations.


CLAXTON: . are and they`ll continue to do that.

HAYES: Let me follow up on that, Marq because we were -- it`s been
striking me -- to me, I mean I`ve been -- it`s striking to me how intense
the rhetoric has been from the police unions, across the country in the
last six months. How intense it`s been here in New York, how intense it
has been in the wake of these horrific murders. Is there a disconnect
between the rank and file -- why did the policemen -- police union behaved
the way they do, explain that to me.

CLAXTON: There is always been from my entire time in the police
department, and it exists right now, there`s always been some level of
disconnect from union leadership and the membership, always has been. But
I think what`s important her and why some of the -- at least in New York,
why some of the rhetoric has been so heated and so charged and so emotional
from Patty Lynch is because there are some things that haven`t been
considered or discussed such as, you know, contract negotiations that are
ongoing and union elections which are, you know, coming up pretty soon.

So there are some backdrop to some of the rhetoric. But I think people
have to be mindful that this is not new.

HAYES: Right.

CLAXTON: And the same level of emotion and passion has existed in every
mayoralty (ph) that I was exposed to and some really went far. Like I said
`92, there was an actual police.


CLAXTON: . riot in the steps of City Hall.

MOSKOS: And that was the last time we had a liberal mayor and contract

HAYES: That`s right. And Redditt, let me get a reaction to one of the
things that Rudy Giuliani (inaudible) said which is something that`s been
echoed by a lot of people which basically laying this murder at the feet of
protesters, laying it at the feet of critics and police department. You
are someone who work as a cop in Saint Louis, have been a protesters as far
as I understand, literally on the streets protesting in Ferguson. I want
you to respond to this comment from Rudy Giuliani, take a listen.


RUDY GIULIANI: We`ve had four months of propaganda starting with the
President that everybody should hate the police. I don`t care how you want
to describe it, that`s what those protester rule about, the protester being
embrace, the protester being encourage, the protest -- even the ones that
don`t lead to violence and a lot of them lead to violence. All lead to a
conclusion. The police are bad. The police are racist, that is completely


HAYES: What`s your reaction to that?

Giuliani is ridiculous. Here you have a situation where two individuals
had their lives taken and their human rights violated by someone who had no
regard for either, that is exactly what this protest have been about for
over 100 days, across the country and we uniformly condemned this act. For
him to associate the protest and the movement with the deaths of these
officers who suffered at the hands of an individual who was clearly
disturbed, he shot his girlfriend before he came to New York, and shot
these two officers, is ridiculous, but it`s the kind of thing you expect
from a man like Rudy Giuliani.

And I`m learning to expect it from the police union head in New York, Mr.
Lynch. The pollicization of this incident is repugnant to me and to most
people who care about what`s happening on the ground.

MOSKOS: The officers aren`t even on the ground yet. Could you imagine
what Giuliani would be saying if there liberals trying to make this a of
little issue at this point. I mean really shame on him, at least to have a
little respect for the family. The union is not speaking for the Ramos
family. Wait a bit, I mean this is a time for police and the public to
come together. It`s the only silver lining that comes out of police

HUDSON: But here`s.


HUDSON: . from unfortunate circumstances, here`s an opportunity for the
public and the police to come together and have a real dialogue about
exactly the things that have lead us to the dissension that you see and the
gap that you see between police and the communities they serve. Mr.
Giuliani is incorrect if he believes that there is no factor of a race in
policing in America, if he believes there is no factor of race throughout
our criminal justice system.

I`d put my life on the line, I`ve been shot at enforcing the laws of the
state, in Missouri here, none of that changes the reality on the ground
that we have to address the issues that have become the focus of this
movement over time.

HAYES: Here`s what so striking about this moment in time to me, in 1991-
1992, around Rodney King, you had this crime surge across the country. I
mean murders in New York were five times what they were last time, right?
You have seen this unprecedented drop in crime, it almost -- there`s almost
no social issue that compares to what`s happen to violent crime in the U.S.
I mean, it`s not like carbon emissions gone down to 80 percent or poverty
has dropped by 80 percent or, you know, and yet the issue -- the politics
of law and order, the politics of police union, the politics of how these
stuff plays out, Marq they don`t seen that change by the fact that the
underlying thing that this whole seat is supposedly about which is crime,
had changed enormously in the last 25 years.

CLAXTON: Well, I think what it, is that people of course they want law in
order but they also demand justice and they firmly believe the people -- we
believed that these things are not mutually exclusive that you can have
effective crime, enforcement strategies, you can have effective, you know,
law enforcement across this nation and still preserved and protect the
sanctity of the justice system.

And whenever you find that there is a gap or a lack of justice, then people
have an obligation to demand for it and demand transparency and as they`re
doing right now, demand reform. Let`s get back to center and find out how
we can really meld and blend these concepts so people understand that these
are a mutually exclusive.

MOSKOS: I just wish we could fix these greater issues in society without
blaming individual police officer. Saying that cops are racist that`s not
going to solve the problems of racial injustice in America. And it also --
well, a lot of the reason why a lot of cops get defensive and say why don`t
-- why are you blaming me for this, there are problems in America but cops
feel right or wrong that the anger is being interested individually.

HAYES: And there`s a reaction of that but I think.


HUDSON: But my issue with that would be -- my issue with that would be why
aren`t there more officers who address those cops who are racist. The
president of my academy class back in 2008 when Barack Obama was first
elected, sent an e-mail, he hit sent on an email, unfortunately that reach
people, I`m sure he didn`t wanted to reach.


HUDSON: . that said he can`t believe we live in a nation of "N" lovers,
with about 10 exclamation points behind the actual word. When are these
officers who want to be called racists going to challenge those who do?

HAYES: Marq Claxton, Redditt and Peter Moskos, thank you, gentlemen for
joining us tonight. I really, really appreciate it.

That is on for this evening. "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts now.

Good evening, Rachel.


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