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All In With Chris Hayes, Thursday, January 22nd, 2015

Read the transcript from the Thursday show

Date: January 22, 2015

Guest: Hillary Crosley-Cocker, Tara Dowdell

CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN:

A Mitt Romney-Jeb Bush summit is on and we have an idea how it might


"GEORGE MADDOX": We`d love for you to be my vice president.

"SELINA MEYER": You`d be my vice president.

Huh? What did you say?

HAYES (voice-over): Plus, antiabortion problems on the Hill.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. Speaker, I ask unanimous consent to remove
myself as a cosponsor of H.R. 36.

HAYES (voice-over): Dissension in the GOP as Republican women rebel
over an abortion bill.

Then, new criticism of Bill Cosby.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know why it`s so hard to believe women.

HAYES (voice-over): The question, is it still OK to watch "The Cosby

And Patriot Games in New England.

BILL BELICHICK, PATRIOTS COACH: I have no knowledge --

TOM BRADY, PATRIOTS QUARTERBACK: I have no knowledge of anything.

BELICHICK: I have no explanation.

BRADY: I didn`t alter the ball in any way.

HAYES (voice-over): In two of the most surreal press conferences in
recent memory, Pats coach and quarterback deny all knowledge of any ball
tampering in last Sunday`s game. ALL IN starts right now.

BRADY: Things are going to be fine. This isn`t ISIS.

HAYES: Good evening from New York, I`m Chris Hayes.

A crucial moment today in the GOP`s invisible 2016 primary. Two main
rivals for the mantle of establishment candidate Jeb Bush and Mitt Romney
came face to face at a private meeting in Salt Lake City today, a meeting
that was scheduled before Romney announced he may launch a third campaign
for president.

According to "The New York Times," the original idea was for Bush "to
show his respect" for Romney, the 2012 nominee, a passing of the
establishment torch, if you will, and a signal to donors and operatives to
rally around the Romney-approved successor.

But then Mitt threw them all a curve ball by deciding he might
actually get in the race himself and in so doing he`s turned himself from
Jeb`s potential kingmaker into his potential rival.

Nevertheless, this meeting between the two of them has somehow stayed
on the books. And while reps for Bush and Romney confirmed it was set to
take place today, they have been extremely tight-lipped about the details.

Earlier today, Jeb tweeted a picture of himself with some Delta
employees at National Airport in Washington, D.C.; he was later spotted
making his way through baggage claim at Salt Lake City International

With little more information than that, we`re left with no choice but
to speculate wildly about what went down when Jeb and Mitt came face to
face. Did they draw straws? Divvy us the business group super PACs? Did
they play Rock, Paper, Scissors, best out of three, decide which of them
actually gets to run?

ALL IN has just obtained exclusive footage of the meeting. We bring
it to you for the first time right now.


"SELINA MEYER": So I think we both agree that the strongest candidate
should run.

"GEORGE MADDOX": Absolutely.

"SELINA MEYER": And we both agree that the role of vice president
could be a very significant one.

"GEORGE MADDOX": You`ve certain made a compelling argument.

"SELINA MEYER": You`d consider that?

"GEORGE MADDOX": Absolutely. We`d love --

"SELINA MEYER": You`d be my vice president?

"GEORGE MADDOX": -- for you to be my vice president.

"SELINA MEYER": Huh? What did you say?

"GEORGE MADDOX": It makes sense for me. You`re already vetted.

"SELINA MEYER": Are you kidding me?

"GEORGE MADDOX": Plus you would be the first vice president to serve
under two successive presidents.

"SELINA MEYER": I would rather be shot in the (INAUDIBLE) face than
serve as vice president again. Seriously, in the (INAUDIBLE) face.


HAYES: Joining me now to discuss what actually happened today, Robert
Costa, national political reporter for "The Washington Post."

So, Robert, this was a scoop on "The New York Times" last night, this
meetings going to take place.

What were the conditions under which it was created?

ROBERT COSTA, "THE WASHINGTON POST": The invitation was issued from
Jeb Bush to Mitt Romney. This happened after the November elections and
Romney, of course, accepted. It was seen as one of many meetings Bush was
going to do between November and February of this year as he makes a final

But the Romney allies I spoke to today had a very interesting say,
they said that Bush made this invitation thinking Romney was not going to
run. And then when Romney started to make his move toward a 2016 bid,
Romney just has sat back. He knew Bush wouldn`t cancel the meeting even if
Bush was frustrated with Romney`s moves.

And so this gives Romney an opportunity to kind of see where Bush
stands politically, who he`s talking to in terms of donors and Romney is
very interested in what Jeb Bush is doing behind the scenes. Remember, we
reported at "The Washington Post" that before Christmas, Bush adviser Mike
Murphy and Romney met to talk through the race.

HAYES: So what is the end goal for each of these men as they go into
the meeting today?

COSTA: They both want to believe that they still have a shot at the
nomination. Romney wants to really see where are Jeb`s skills right now.
Romney, according to people who know him best, has reservations about
Bush`s candidacy. Thinks Bush will have the same kind of attacks on his
business record like Romney had in `12. He thinks Bush`s skills are a
little rusty in terms of retail politics.

He wants to see is Bush the talent that everyone is talking about in
these donor meetings. And from the Bush side, they really want to see, is
Romney just flirting with a bid? Or is he really serious --

HAYES: What does your -- that`s the big question. What does your
reporting suggest about that?

COSTA: My reporting suggests that Romney is not deterred by the press
criticism. He is not deterred by the criticism from some in his own party.
He is driven not only by a sense of ambition but a history. I hear he is
talking a lot about his father behind the scenes, George Romney, the former
Michigan governor. He believes that he -- it`s in his blood, it`s part of
his life to try to really seek the presidency. And he believes he was
proven right. And I think he knows there is a lot of criticism out there
about a third try, but I think he still is moving toward a run.

HAYES: What is the state of play among the donors? I saw, I think it
was -- I think it was ProPublica, but I was thinking so hard, Senate for
Republican Integrity I think started calling through the Romney donor list,
got a bunch of people on the fence, on the record, on the fence about
whether they would re-up essentially with Romney or they would go to Jeb.
It seems like that is the battle for that same set of big money bundlers
and donors.

COSTA: The complicated rivalry here is that a lot of the people who
are Romney`s biggest donors got their careers started as Bush donors for
41. They got ambassadorships from the Bush family. And so there`s a
loyalty there and those loyalists are going pretty quickly to Jeb`s side,
but Romney still has a huge base of support. And when you talk to Romney
people, they believe they could still raise the $100-150 million you need
to win a Republican primary. And they think a lot of Jeb`s support is soft
because those who went to him early didn`t think Mitt was getting in.

HAYES: So what comes next? What is the timeline? I keep waiting to
see who`s going to be the person to make the first official announcement
among, say, the top tier candidates.

What do you anticipate?

COSTA: Well, Romney is giving a big speech next week in Mississippi
state. Romney knows he needs to start moving toward a run in a more
formal fashion in the next months. And if he doesn`t do that, he will be
left behind with some of the donors.

Jeb Bush, he`s out there. He`s raised a lot of money. I think he
wants to have a big first quarter with his leadership right to rise back.

But you have Christie, he`s going to be in Iowa; I will be with him in
Iowa tomorrow in Des Moines. He`s going to be there on Saturday for Steve
King`s event. Scott Walker, he thinks the battle between the establishment
heavies will maybe open up a path to him. So it is fluid right now. And
no one`s really in the race, but all -- just trying to test the amount of
support they could get.

HAYES: There will be anywhere between 15 and 20 people running?

COSTA: Right, so the consequence of that is money. And if it`s a
crowded field and you don`t get a bounce out of New Hampshire or South
Carolina that`s going to really propel you through to the nomination
process, you need to survive long term.

And all the conservatives look at Huckabee and Santorum, they think, I
need to play long term.

HAYES: And this is the context everyone should understand, what we
call the invisible primary, which is lining up donors, this is a small
subsection of the American electorate, very, very wealthy people, extremely
unrepresentative, not just unrepresentative of America, unrepresentative of
the Republican party, even the Republican base.

COSTA: And this first super PAC, that`s what`s really important to
remember. They`re not to run the campaigns, not to -- it`s to keep these
ads going on the outside of the campaign.

HAYES: Beauty pageants judged by billionaires, American democracy in

Robert Costa, thank you.

COSTA: Thank you.

HAYES: In his first conversations with Republican power brokers about
his new plans for 2016, Mitt Romney said he is intent on running to the
right of Jeb Bush, according to "The Washington Post." Now I think this is
an interesting concept for a couple reasons.

First of all, why? What exactly would that gain him?

And second, it is remarkable to see the unselfconsciousness with which
Mitt Romney talks about which version of himself he`s going to try out for
this campaign. There has been a pro-choice Mitt Romney, a model he
ultimately abandoned. There was a moderate Mitt, then a severely
conservative version. Now there is Romney 3.0, the more conservative than
Jeb edition. But if Romney`s supposed to be running to the right of Jeb
Bush, he certainly picked a strange way of going about it.

In his big speech at the RNC`s winter meeting last week, Romney`s
message was all about income inequality.


human tragedy that the middle class in this country by and large does not
believe the future will be better than the past or their kids will have a
brighter future than their own. Under President Obama, the rich have
gotten richer, income inequality has gotten worse. And there are more
people in poverty in America than ever before.


HAYES: This week he has been talking about manmade climate change.
At a speech in Salt Lake City last night, Romney described himself as "one
of those Republicans who believe the world is getting warmer and people are
contributing to the change."

He called for, quote, "real leadership" to deal with coal emissions.

That kind of rhetoric has managed to alienate one of his formerly
staunch supporters, "The Washington Post" columnist Jennifer Rubin, who
tweeted, quote, "Romney now into climate change? No really, maybe he will
go back to being pro-choice, is he kidding?"

And that`s coming from someone who was widely criticized in 2012 over
her perceived advocacy for the Romney campaign.

There is something going on here that Jennifer Rubin and everyone else
in the political class seems to miss. And I think I have finally figured
it out.

Mitt Romney is trying to get my endorsement.

And I just want to tell you right now, Mitt, because I know you`re
watching, I see what you`re doing.

You know that talking about stagnant wages and carbon emissions is the
key to my heart. Keep it up.

Joining me now, Scott Helman, staff writer for "The Boston Globe," and
coauthor of "The Real Romney," so I guess this is someone who has managed
several iterations of reinvention throughout his political career in
various contexts. It doesn`t seem implausible that he will launch another
one here, but of course the problem is if he does that, that just reaffirms
the image of him as someone willing to say anything.

having this exact conversation four years ago, he certainly has a gift for
reinvention. He`s shown it over and over again. I have my doubts as to
whether or not this will really be a serious candidacy or not.

But you`re right. Some of the things he is saying are clearly
different points of emphasis than he has made in the past.

HAYES: I think that the climate aspect is fascinating. He was
someone that was governor of Massachusetts. They signed on to a regional
cap and trade system. There is even a letter in which he talks about this
preamble letter signed by the governor, talking about the fact of carbon
emissions and climate change.

It does strike me that there will be some tipping point in that
Republican field where it gets too embarrassing to continue to deny it, and
you might actually see some of these primary contestants edge out and say
yes, this is what the science says.

HELMAN: Yes, that is certainly possible. And you`re right. As
Governor Romney took a few different actions to act on climate change, and
at the time he was seen as somebody that was in that party but believing in
it and willing to do something about it. Then he moved very quickly away
from those positions when he ran very hard to the right in 2008.

You know we saw in each of these campaigns he has run, he has been
just attacked mercilessly by his rivals in the Republican primary. It was
McCain that had that great line when he was smiling maniacally and he said,
you`re right, Governor Romney, you are the candidate of change.

So I don`t really know what is left to say about that. Maybe Romney
figures if he runs again, everyone is sort of blown all they can in that
regard and there`s nothing else to say.

HAYES: Do people in Romney World think he is going to run again?

Like the people in Massachusetts, the people you talk to, do they
think this is some weird kind of ego turn in which he needs for his own
sense of identity to reassert his primacy in this party after that loss and
then he can hand off the baton, or he is really going to do it?

HELMAN: To be honest, I`m not close enough right now to tell you,
Chris, but I do know that as Robert was talking about, he has long seen
this as his destiny, and I think he is someone also who genuinely wants to
contribute. He`s not somebody who`s going to retire and putter around in
his garage, right. So I think he is probably a little bit bored. He sees
an opening here, he wants to stay in the conversation.

I think he genuinely believes he would be a great president and his
tight circle has always believed that. So clearly they`re in his ear
saying that.

How far this goes? Does he really take it as far as he is threatening
to? Again, I have my doubts on that. I also have my doubts that at the
end of the day, donors and activists and voters are going to give him a
third chance. I think it`s a tough bar to get across.

HAYES: I think these things have a momentum all of their own. I
really do. I think people start thinking about being president and start
thinking about running for president, they start out being like, oh, man,
that doesn`t seem like a very pleasant enterprise.

And then more and more people around them start saying you could be
the next president, and you start to think, get up in the morning, look at
yourself in the mirror and I could be the next president.

And he has already gone through getting over the unpleasantness. He`s
in some ways closer than anyone else. At one level is seems sociopathic to
want to do it again, given what it requires. But the other level, it`s
like -- he is making a choice in the margins in a way that other people

HELMAN: Yes, absolutely. And again, it`s so funny to be talking
about this. Here we are in 2015. These are the same conversations we were
having the last campaign, right? He had done it before, he is better at
it, he`s more seasoned, he has been through the hard part. He has brought
his wife around.

Again, and I just think ultimately we`re hearing some of the same
rationale for running that he had four years ago in terms of criticizing
the Obama economy. The fact of it is as everybody knows the direction of
the country will change when Obama leaves anyway. It`s a different
argument than it was four years ago, when it`s like, look, I told you four
years ago Obama was the wrong guy. I was right. Now give me a chance.
Well, you got your chance, and now someone else is going to be president,
something totally different.

So what is there left to, you know, to run on?


HAYES: I think the idea that voters respond to, "I was right," is
pretty misbegotten.

Thank you, Scott Helman.

HELMAN: My pleasure.

HAYES: Patriots quarterback Tom Brady managed to reference ISIS in
his Deflategate press conference because, hey, why the heck not. It was a
weird news day. We will give you the context.

Plus, Lindsey Graham wants the GOP to put its best minds together to
finally once and for all define rape.


SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), S.C.: I hope and pray that we can find a way
to deal with the current conflict about definitions. And if we do not,
shame on us all.


HAYES: Shame indeed. And that`s ahead.


HAYES: Breaking news at this hour, King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia has
died. Saudi television cut to Quranic verses early on Friday, which often
signifies the death of a senior royal and the king`s death is now
confirmed. King Abdullah, age 90, had been at hospital for several weeks.
He will be buried after the third prayer of the day, the same day of his
death in Saudi Arabia tomorrow, East Coast time.

Crown Prince Solomon automatically became king at his brother`s death.
He`s also elderly and reportedly in ill health.

And as we`ve been reporting, liberal blogger Raif Badawi was sentenced
in Saudi Arabia to 10 years imprisonment and 1,000 lashes, 50 a week over
20 weeks, for insulting Islam. His next round of flogging has been
postponed twice due to medical reasons from the first flogging earlier this

It would be a pretty excellent gesture to begin his new kingdom for
the king to decide to spare him.



SEN. HARRY REID, MAJORITY LEADER: As far as I know, I can`t believe
that the National Football League with the billions of dollars they make
couldn`t at least determine how much air should be in a football and why it
should be left up to the teams.

what, having been a receiver, I like a softer ball, that`s all I can tell



HAYES: The scandal over the allegedly deflated footballs used by the
New England Patriots in their victory Sunday over Indianapolis Colts in the
NFL playoffs has now reached a level where the Senate`s top Democrat and
the vice president himself are offering up their thoughts on it.

And today, the two men at the center of the controversy, Patriots
coach Bill Belichick and quarterback Tom Brady were forced to address at
length the scandal that is now dominating the national conversation in the
run up to the Super Bowl.

First up was Belichick, who gave an inordinately long statement by the
standards of the legendarily taciturn coach, eight minutes that basically
amounted to, "I have nothing to do with this. I have no knowledge of the
balls being deflated. You need to go ask Tom."


BELICHICK: Tom`s personal preferences on his footballs are something
that he can talk about in much better detail and give more information than
I could possibly provide. To tell you that in my entire coaching career, I
have never talked to any player, staff member, about football air pressure,
that is not a subject I have ever brought up.


HAYES: After Belichick`s 8-minute opening statement, he took a few
minutes to answer reporters` questions, and answer he did, in classic
inimitable Belichick style.


BELICHICK: I had no knowledge whatsoever of this situation until
Monday morning.

I had no knowledge, I have no explanation.

I was completely and totally unaware. I`ve told you everything I
know. I don`t have an explanation. I`ve told you everything I know.
There`s nothing else I can add to it. I told you everything I know. I`ve
told them everything I know. I have no explanation for what happened. I
don`t have an explanation for what happened.

I don`t have an explanation for what happened.

I don`t have an explanation for what happened. I have told you all I
know about the subject from my perspective.

So that`s where we are.


HAYES: After Belichick was done doing his best Marshawn Lynch
impersonation, then later this afternoon it was Tom Brady`s turn to address
the media in a long, positively surreal press conference. Brady denied
wrongdoing. He said his team had beaten the Colts fair and square and that
he would much rather be talking about something else.


QUESTION: Can you answer right now, is Tom Brady a cheater?

BRADY: I don`t believe so, I mean, I feel like I`ve always played
within the rules. I would never do anything to break the rules. You know,
I didn`t alter the ball in any way. I have no knowledge of anything. I
had no knowledge of any wrongdoing of any --

QUESTION: -- you did anything wrong?

BRADY: Yes, I`m very comfortable saying that. I`m very comfortable
saying that nobody did it, as far as I know. I don`t know everything. I
also understand that I was in a locker room preparing for a game. I don`t
know what happened over the course of the process with the footballs.

Things are going to be fine, this isn`t ISIS, this isn`t -- you know,
no one`s dying. But, you know, we will get through this and hopefully we
can really start preparing for Seattle and get our mind focused there.


HAYES: But he also said he likes footballs to be inflated to 12.5
pounds per square inch, which is the lowest level legally allowed by NFL.
And that he had talked to the equipment staff who told him, they, too, had
not altered the balls in any way.

Meanwhile, Richard Sherman, the outspoken Seattle Seahawks cornerback,
known for his braggadocio, say yesterday that while he didn`t think the
Deflategate amounted to all that much, the public might want to reassess
the Patriots` golden boy quarterback, who he said does plenty of trash
talking of his own.


RICHARD SHERMAN, SEAHAWKS CORNERBACK: I think people somehow get a
skewed vision of Tom Brady, that he`s just a clean-cut, does everything
right and never says a bad word to anyone. And we know him to be


HAYES: Joining me now is David Zirin, sports editor for "The Nation".
That Brady press conference -- also author of "Game Over."

That Brady press conference was one of the most bizarre press
conferences I`ve ever seen, first because it seemed like he had made a bet
with some offensive lineman before he came out about how often he could the
word "balls," and yes, 7-year old in everyone was kind of giggling at that.

But also there was this incredibly polarized response. We were
sitting in the office, watching it, and the Pats fans were like, oh, he
totally seems like he`s telling the truth. Everyone else was like, he`s
lying through his teeth.

What was your reaction?

DAVE ZIRIN, SPORTS EDITOR, "THE NATION": Yes, Tom Brady was certainly
testy in that press conference, Chris. Look, when I was watching this, I
found Brady to be so unconvincing, that by the time he was done, I was
convinced that ISIS was somehow behind the deflating of the balls.


ZIRIN: Before that game. And the text messages were flying fast and
furious form former football players, pro football insiders who were just
saying this is the biggest load of hooey I have ever seen. And that`s the
main issue is that the Patriots don`t get the benefit of the doubt because
they fail what I call the Queen of England test.

Like if I said to you right now, Chris, hey, I heard a rumor that Mitt
Romney had an affair with the Queen of England, you would say that`s the
stupidest thing I ever heard, get this guy off the air.

But if I said, hey, I heard a rumor that Bill Clinton had an affair
with the Queen of England, you might say word? And that`s the thing about
the -- they have no benefit of the doubt in this, particularly from other
NFL teams in players who are so tired, as Richard Sherman alluded to, of
hearing about this Patriots dynasty, and golden boy Tom Brady, when a lot
of people think that something stinks in Belichickville.

HAYES: The other -- well, what I -- what was also fascinating, the
subtext here, I mean, basically everyone knows factually what -- the league
tests them two hours before the game, tests all the balls. The team takes
care of its own. Then at some point in the first half, it appears after a
Colts pick, it looks like the Colts basically -- one of their equipment
managers got their hands on what was a Patriots ball and said this doesn`t
feel right. They tested it, they then tested all the balls, turned out
they were underinflated, right?

So the question becomes what happened? At what point did they get
underinflated? And what had today was that it seemed like Belichick threw
Brady under the bus. And Brady said I have no idea. And what I see this
all heading towards is some poor equipment manager at the bottom of the
totem pole is 100 percent going to take the fall for this.

ZIRIN: Absolutely. If I was an equipment manager for the Patriots, I
would not even be boiling eggs at this point. I would --

HAYES: Lawyer up.

ZIRIN: I would hope that I didn`t have a mortgage. I would be like
let me get out of here because this is going to get kicked down the train
until somebody`s gone because the Patriots want to protect their image.
And Roger Goodell, the lovely commissioner of the National Football League,
has a vested interest in defending the New England Patriots because their
owner, Bob Kraft, was the first person to come out and defend Roger Goodell
when everybody from Bob Costas -- everybody was saying that Roger Goodell
should not be commissioner of the National Football League.

So of all the billionaires who Roger Goodell has leased a portion of
his soul and credibility to, Bob Kraft actually holds the biggest lease.
So he`s not going to say anything against him. He is not going to invoke
the now famous rule 17, clause two, which actually would allow him to say
the Colts are now in the Super Bowl and, my goodness, if he did that, you
might have to preempt MSNBC for the next week and a half.

HAYES: Are you kidding me? If he did that it would be wall to wall
on every network until the Super Bowl, no question.

Dave Zirin.

ZIRIN: Absolutely. Let`s be clear. That would be a defeat for ISIS.

HAYES: Thank you very much.

All right. I want to show you this chart. So what that incredible
jump from 2011 to 2014, what that represents, ahead.


HAYES: All right, I`m going to show you a chart. I want you to take a
close look at it, try to figure out what it is. All right, as you can see
in the year 2014, something spiked particularly compared to previous years,
I mean, really spiked. You might think that is not good, unless it is
American median wage growth, or number of Americans winning Noble prizes,
or the college graduation rate, but no, it`s measles. That`s measles.
That is a chart of new measles cases from 2001 to 2014.

There were 644 new cases of measles last year in the U.S., the biggest
number since the 1950s.

One outbreak, which is believed to begun in early December in Disneyland of
all places and another theme park, continues to spread. There are now over
60 reported cases. As headlined by the Washington Post, Disneyland measles
outbreak strikes in antivaccination hotbed of California.

But with cases also in Utah, Washington State, Colorado, Oregon and

And unfortunately, measles is highly contagious. Do you remember how we
spent weeks on this program underlying the fact that Ebola is not easily
spread, not highly contagious. That is not true for measles.

Quoting CDC officials, "when [infected people] sneeze or cough, droplets
spray into the air and the droplets remain active and contagious on
infected surfaces for up to two hours."

But here`s the thing, despite how contagious is it, the overwhelming
majority of us don`t get measles, because the overwhelming majority of us
get vaccinated.

In fact, in 2000 due to vaccination the United States declared that measles
was eliminated from the country, according to CDC. Now it`s back.

And while there is not yet a consensus on who patient zero was, perhaps,
just perhaps what there definitely is consensus on is that measles are bad,
vaccinations are good and the later prevents the former.

So for the love of all that is holy, please, please make sure you and your
little ones especially are vaccinates.


HAYES: Today is a big day, possibly the biggest day of the year for the
antiabortion movement. This was the scene earlier today on the streets of
Washington, D.C. at the annual march for life. It`s timed every year to
mark the anniversary of the Supreme Court`s decision in Roe V. Wade.

And it was supposed to be a triumphant moment for the movement, a day to
proudly display their cozy relationship with the new Republican house

In fact, as they marched Republicans had planned to pass what is
essentially a federal post 20 week abortion ban. It was supposed to pass
without a hitch just like it did in the last congress.

But what happened this year was something very different. These protesters
from this afternoon, they`re not outside of a pro choice liberal
Democratic`s office, those protesters are gathered outside anti-abortion
Republican congresswoman Renee Elmers office.

And believe me, they are not happy.


congress with the highest majority of Republicans in the House in many
decades, a Senate now under the leadership of Mitch McConnell. They could
not have sent a worse signal to the pro life community and they are in
essence are getting us to ask the question why should we work for
Republican candidates?


HAYES: Now, the latest dust up in the new Republican caucus comes courtesy
of the party`s recent troubled electoral history with rape.

It all started a couple weeks ago according to The National Journal, citing
sources who were in the room at the time, when a group of GOP women,
including congresswoman Renee Elmers, Kristi Noem, and Cythia Lummis
approached majority whip Steve Scalise about their concerns with the
language in the proposed 20 week ban bill. It was sponsored by congressman
Trent Franks.

Now the women reportedly took particular issue specifically with the bill`s
rape exemption language, which stipulates a woman does not qualify for the
exemption from the ban if she has not reported her rape to law enforcement.

In other words, in the eyes of this proposed law, the estimated two-thirds
of rapes that are not reported are not really raps.

A week later, Elmers spoke out about her concerns at the Republican policy
retreat, telling the National Journal, quote, "we got into trouble last
year and I
think we need to be careful again. We need to be smart about how we are
moving forward."

After that, as many as two dozen other Republicans have raised concerns
about HR36, according to The Washington Post.

And on Tuesday, Congresswoman Elmers and Jackie Walorski went one step


REP. JACKIE WALORSKI, (R) INDIANA: Mr. Speaker, I ask unanimous consent to
remove myself as a cosponsor of HR-36.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Without objection.

For what purpose is the gentle lady from North Carolina to seek

REP. RENEE ELMERS, (R) NORTH CAROLINA: Mr. Speaker, I ask unanimous
consent to remove myself from HR-36.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Without objection.


HAYES: Even after two women removed themselves as co-sponsors, House
leadership remained committed to the bill as drafted. Yesterday in the
afternoon, Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy told National Journal, quote,
"we`re still planning on moving forward with the bill tomorrow."

At a closed door conference meeting when according to the journal he
delivered that message to a room full of Republican women, apparently it
did not go over well.

Marsha Blackburn, a lead sponsor of the bill reportedly gave, a quote,
"impassioned speech in conference, noting that because of the rape clause,
the GOP was again fumbling over this sensitive subject."

Renee Elmers reportedly repeated her critique. And sources told the
journal that Congresswoman Walorski left the meeting early. Ultimately,
leadership relented on the bill that was once a foregone conclusion.


RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC ANCHOR: Right now there is some just breaking news to
report tonight out of Washington, a dramatic and very unexpected
development in congress. Late tonight, just within the last few minutes,
just since we`ve been on the air, this has apparently all apart.

House GOP abruptly drops plan to debate abortion bill after revolt by GOP
women and others.


HAYES: The women in the House Republican caucus may have scored a huge
victory over their overwhelming male colleagues last night, but in the
process they made themselves a whole new movement of enemies.

Joining me now, MSNBC national reporter Erin Carmon, who spent her day in
Washington, D.C. at the march for life.

Erin, tell me what that scene was like. There was so much furry I saw
among conservative anti-abortion organizers, pundits, writers on social
media last night directed at Renee Elmers and Marsha Blackburn and Walorski
over this -- what they perceive as a betrayal.

What did it -- how did it manifest today?

ERIN CARMON, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: There was certainly a lot of anger in
the grass roots. But I think that they know that the 20 week ban will be
back as the House leadership planned.

I mean, on the one hand, this was an enormous show of strength from the GOP
women. And I don`t want to underestimate that. I don`t want to understate
how much it cost them in terms of base votes. They have a -- this is a
group of people that don`t want to see any kind of rape exception, let
along a rape exception that involves reporting to the police.

And, by the way, that rape exception reporting to the police is noxious.
One activist told me today that the reason you have to have it in is she
said get perpetrators off the streets and some women lie about rape.

So, that`s really what`s at stake here.

That said, the vast thrust of the 20 week ban will remain in place. These
women have said that they will vote for it. This was not a strong show of
solidarity for fellow women beyond the specific optics of rape.

So while, yes, it`s going to cost them with the base and the people that I
talked to today were furious, I think they know that ultimately that
they`re going to deliver and that this bill is their preferred vehicle for
a direct assault on Row v. Wade. It was no coincidence that this is what
they wanted to pass today. I don`t think it`s going anywhere.

HAYES: So there`s two issues. One, just quickly on this -- on rape and
why they keep having political problems with it. It seems to me the
problem is the philosophy to which most of the base adheres really doesn`t
want to make a distinction because they think that the fetus is ultimately
blameless and so that philosophically their opposed to it, politically it`s
a dead-end to include an exception for -- to not include an exception for
rape, which is why they end up doing this over and over.

CARMON: Right. Well, there is vast daylight between the activists who
don`t want to see any kind of exception and the average American who
frankly has internally contradictory views, which is they suddenly feel
like they have more empathy for people who need abortions once you start
talking about sexual assault.

There are lots of reasons why people get abortions after 20 weeks that also
involve desperate circumstances outside of rape. But I think it`s
important to note that in 2013, when this bill passed, as you pointed out,
people like Marsha
Blackburn sponsored it, they stewarded it on the floor.

HAYES: With the same language.

CARMON: The exact same language. I feel like I`m the only person who
remembers this, it was the exact same language. And no one made any issue
of it then. So I`m just a little bit skeptical of this vast uprising of
GOP women.

Now some of them are facing really competitive races in 2016. There is
going to be a presidential electorate. There`s going to be swing districts
like Renee Elmers. North Carolina certainly is a swing state. So they
have reason to be afraid.

But I think even if this bill were to come back and it would have a broader
rape exception, it would still be an attack on all of the women who need
abortions after 20 weeks.

HAYES: And what is clear, I think, is that we are going to see 20 week ban
legislation and that it going to make its way before this court at some
point. That seems unavoidable.

Erin Carmon, thank you very much.

CARMON: Thank you.

HAYES: It is an exciting night here at All In as we debut a new feature
we`re calling jokes you shouldn`t make.

Plus, is this the only acceptable way to now watch the Cosby Show?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don`t worry, I`m good for it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You promised me you were going to pay me back today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The day is not over is it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What are you two doing?



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look, Vanessa, I don`t owe you $5. I owe you three.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, lately I`ve been hearing you owe. And at the
front and the back of it, I hear the name Theo.


HAYES: That`s ahead.


HAYES: Tonight on ALL IN, as promised we are introducing a new feature
we`re calling jokes you shouldn`t make. Tonight`s jokes you shouldn`t make
story comes to us from Germany, which has over the past several months seen
the rise of right-wing anti-Islamic, anti-immigration rhetoric, in
particular in the form of the Pegida group, which stands for, in German,
Patriotic Europeans Against the Islamization of the West.

Weekly Pegida rallies in Germany may unnerve anyone cognizant of 20th
Century history. But the most recent rally was cancelled and anti-Pegida
rallies draw thousands.

So, here`s a joke you shouldn`t make if you are the leader of Pegida.
Don`t post a selfie in which you are posing as Hitler. Even if you claim
it coincided with the release of your satirical audio book about Hitler,
even if you did it back in 2012 and it`s just now surfacing. Too bad. Too
late. The guy in that picture Lutz Bachmann has now resigned his post as
leader of Pegida. The movement, however, still going strong.


HAYES: In his first week on the air, new Comedy Central host Larry Wilmore
tackled the controversy surrounding comedy legend Bill Cosby. The question
that seems particularly relevant as the list of women accusing Cosby of
sexual assault continues to grow. And Cosby continues to deny the


LARRY WILMORE, THE NIGHTLY SHOW: I was really taken by that sheer number
of women that came out, and all of the skepticism, even after the number.
Why do you think we can`t believe women?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know, rape is the only crime that we -- yes
we have a system of innocent until proven guilty. But we`re a society and
I mean, community members, police officers, district attorneys, really go
so far out of their way to discredit victims as if we can`t accept the idea
that a man, particularly a powerful man, would take measures to take
something from a woman.


HAYES: More than two dozen women have gone public with accusations of
sexual assault against Cosby, all of which he and his attorneys have
strongly and repeatedly denied.

Cosby has not been charged with a crime.

Some celebrities who have had professional relationships with Bill Cosby
have begun to openly speak about the allegations. Perhaps most notably
this week, former tonight show host Jay Leno.


JAY LENO, COMEDIAN: This whole Cosby thing, Hannibal Burress, started with
him, standup comedian. He made a flatout statement the reverberated around
the world. If that was on TV, it would have been edited. If it had been
on any other medium it would have been edited, but because somebody just
filmed it and put it out there, you`re getting your news raw and
unfiltered, which I think is fantastic.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you watch that Cosby thing and just think sad? Or
do you think -- what`s your take on that? This was a guy that was...

LENO: I mean, I don`t know why it is so hard to believe women. I mean you
go to Saudi Arabia and you need two women to testify against a man, here
you need 25.


HAYES: Former Cosby Show co-star Malcalm-Jamal Warner also spoke out this
week telling Billboard magazine, quote "just as it`s painful to hear any
woman talk about sexual assault, whether true or not, it`s just as painful
to watch my friend and mentor go through this."

People with personal and professional ties to Bill Cosby aren`t the only
ones wrestling with how to react to the allegations and what they should
think about Cosby, his career and his body of work. It`s something fans
are considering and reconsidering, too.

If you grew up with the Cosby Show, if you believe these women are telling
the truth about Bill Cosby, well, then, what exactly do you do? Does that
interfere with your love of his work? Should it?

And Bill Cosby, let`s be reminded, is not the only beloved entertainer who
has been accused of sexual misconduct. We`ll look at three other artists
who continue to work in the face of ugly allegations and what it`s meant
for their careers and their body of work next.


HAYES: Joining me now, Hillary Crosley-Cocker, staff writer for, founder and editorial director of Parlor; and
friend of the show Tera Dowdell.

So, I have been thinking a lot about what do you do with this? So, just --
let`s just say the blanket thing, which is that -- because you know,
nothing has been legally established, they strenuously deny the
allegations. I cannot convict him here on this television show and don`t
want to.

But for people making these decisions about who they believe, what they
believe what they believe about what this guy did, what he might have done,
how do you integrate that into like, "can you watch The Cosby Show.

Can you watch the Cosby Show?


HAYES: Can you.

CROSLEY-COCKER: Can I? Can I watch it?

HAYES: Can I watch the Cosby Show? Yes. Can I watch it without thinking
oh,man, bathrobes, Janice Dickenson, Beverly Johnson, the two basketball
teams full of women accusing him of either drugging them or sexually
assaulting them or drugging them to then be sexually assaulted then kicking
them out because they called him an MFer, like, no, I can`t. All those
things are happening as Theo`s like, but my allowance, dad.

HAYES: Right. But what that means is that functionally, like, that body
of work, right -- as of now, like you are not going to be watching Cosby
Show or Fat Albert or any other -- you`re not going to be watching Bill
Cosby stand up specials, right?

CROSLEY-COCKER: Oh, that. No. The dentist joke will not be as funny
anymore, because then it sounds like we`re making jokes about drugging

HAYES: Do you feel the same way?

TERA DOWDELL, POLITICAL CONSULTANT: Well, I`m of the belief that I have to
separate the art from the man. Do I admire the man? No, I do not. Do I
admire the art? Yes, I do.

I`ve learned in politics that where there is fire, there`s a gigantic --
where there`s smoke, there is a gigantic blaze. So for me, I definitely am
in the camp that I think he did it.

But at the same time, I will say this, I am not a fan of double standards.
And so when I look at some of these other folks, like our very own founding
fathers, Thomas Jefferson, who -- they`re speaking...

HAYES: That`s a good point. It`s like can you ever read the Constitution
or the Declaration of the Independence again knowing what he did?

DOWDELL: Exactly. I mean, he was a slave owner, and you know he was with
-- they called an affair. It was a 15-year-old slave that -- is that
really an affair or is that rape?

HAYES: And let`s also be clear. Just an historical side note on Sally
Hemmings when people talk about, well, that was so long ago. That was a
scandal at the time. Political opponents ran on that at the time. People
thought that was messed up at the time. So, just to bracket that, you
know, so people understand...

DOWDELL: And she was 15, historically.

CROSLEY-COCKER: And people tend to gloss over things.

HAYES: There are also other people -- just because I feel like to
(inaudible) out the conversation, right -- and again we`re dealing with
like varied levels of allegations/legal proceedings, so I want to be very
specific here. There`s Roman Polanski, right, pleaded guilty to unlawful
sex with a minor in 1977. The victim was 13-years-old at the time. He
fled the U.S. after serving (inaudible). This is someone who has been --
the legal system has found him -- this is not an alleged anymore, right.
Still making movies, still widely admired as an artist.

There`s Woody Allen, again this is an accusation by his 7-year-old daughter
at the time that she molested him. He denies the allegation very
strenuously, was
never charged, but again Woody Allen celebrated, beloved artist.

DOWDELL: Oscar-winning actresses are in his films.

HAYES: That`s right.

And then there`s R. Kelly, who -- no, but like...

CROSLEY-COCKER: Not (inaudible).

HAYES: R. Kelly was accused of some of the most heinous stuff you can
imagine, right.

CROSLEY-COCKER: Saw the tape.

HAYES: A sex tape with an under age girl, a tape that was presented to a
jury. He was acquitted, right. So there`s this sort of legal bar. But I
like with R. Kelly it was like I remember when we were having the
discussion about R. Kelly we`re having now with Bill Cosby, and now it`s
just like -- oh, R. Kelly is just back. It`s kind of like he`s just back.

CROSLEY-COCKER: I don`t think he is just back,though. I think he really
wants to be back...

HAYES: Will you bump an R. Kelly song at a party?

CROSLEY-COCKER: So here`s the thing. I`m an African-American, so if I`m
at a family reunion, if there`s a wedding, Step in the Name of Love is
coming on. Am I going to then run out of the room? No. But am I going to
be like, oh my god I remember watching that porno of R. Kelly in a Bronx
apartment and being like this is -- she`s 5-years-old.

Yet, am I not going to have that moment? Absolutely I`m going to have that
moment. And that`s kind of my take on it.

HAYES: But that gets to what Tara is saying, which is just like you
separate them and it`s like there`s this body of work. R. Kelly isn`t
unquestionably massively talented musician and singer, like stipulated.
And you`re just going to play those songs. That is a struggle, though.

I was at karaoke recently where someone sang an R. Kelly song and I was the
whole time being like, like this is a jam, though.

CROSLEY-COCKER: It`s the jam. But I think the kicker is acknowledging the
history, right. And I think so many people want to just listen to the song
and they want to just watch the show without saying all of this backstory.

And I remember saying to a lot of people when R. Kelly came out like the
entire time, because I began as an entertainment journalist and I`d be
like, OK, so you like that song so it`s cool for him to pee on little
girls. You`re cool with that. Like you`re fine with that, that doesn`t
come up...

HAYES: But why is it any different now?

CROSLEY-COCKER: It`s not to me. It`s been the same the whole time.

HAYES: But you`re saying the requirement is that you think of it when the
song comes on.

CROSLEY-COCKER: Yeah, like for...

DOWDELL: No, I think that for me the requirement is that if you`re going
to talk about somebody even as a great artist, I think that the whole story
needs to be told. It should not be a footnote, the whole story needs to be

I mean, it`s different for R. Kelly because he was acquitted. So, you
know, so that he`s been not proven guilty of a crime, I mean in the legal
sense. I mean, he`s not been proven guilty of a crime.

But at the same time I do think that in these situations the whole story
should be told.

HAYES: Right. But then it comes down to -- the problem, right...

DOWDELL: But for everybody, not a double standard. Don`t be like Woody is
cool, but R. Kelly...

HAYES: Although, again, the (inaudible) getting into litigating the very
different allegations and the number of the people. But, yeah.

I mean, the point is that like, can you still watch that thing, consume
that thing and not feel somehow morally implicated.


HAYES: You can`t. And yet, I will admit that I do.


HAYES: All right, that`s where we ended up.

Hillary Crosley-Cocker and Tara Dowdell, thank you very much.

All right, quick quick correction for something said earlier in the show.
I said the number of new measles cases in 2014 was the worst since the
1950s, I meant to say the worst since the 1990. Big difference, but a bad
year for measles nonetheless.

That is ALL IN for this evening. "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts right


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