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All In With Chris Hayes, Tuesday, January 27th, 2015

Read the transcript from the Tuesday show

Date: January 27, 2015
Guest: Robert Costa, Heather McGhee, Nick Confessore, Jennifer Fermino,
Gabriel Sherman, Bomani Jones, Patricia Todd



GOV. SCOTT WALKER (R) WISCONSIN: The measure of success in government is
how many people are no longer dependent on the government.



HAYES: First, a big weekend, and now bigger news from Scott Walker as the
billionaire Kochs lay out their 2016 plans and billionaire Rupert Murdoch
steps up his campaign to stop Mitt Romney. Robert Costa on the evolving
presidential field.

Then, in the wake of the storm, who shut down the New York City subways and
why didn`t anyone tell the mayor?


MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO (D) NEW YORK: We found out just as it was being


HAYES: Plus, the marriage equality fight gets ugly down South. Alabama`s
first openly gay lawmaker threatens to out officials having extramarital
affairs. She joins me live tonight.

And as the Patriot protests get louder, there may be finally a person of
interest in Deflate-gate.


WALKER: Sometimes you do stuff that`s not fair .


WALKER: So that you can win.


HAYES: "ALL IN" starts right now.

Good evening from New York, I`m Chris Hayes. Back inside the studio. And
we don`t have any candidates who formally declared yet, but all of a sudden
it appears like we have a front runner in the Republican presidential race.
I`m not kidding. Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker just announced today,
just today, he is launching a committee to help spread his political
message, to take without what you will. A new organization called "Our
American Revival" is being headed up by a former RNC political reporter and
it is the strongest signal yet of Walker`s intention for 2016.

And it comes almost immediately after the governor positively wowed an
audience to conservative activists in Iowa over the weekend emerging as a
crowd favorite. Among the large group of GOP stars hosted by Congressman
Steven King. And also, easing fears he might be too mild mannered
Midwestern to fire up the base and win over primary voters. Instead, -
seems to be channeling his Baptist preacher father, he`s crisscrossed the
stage and transfixed the crowd.


WALKER: You see, there is a reason - there is a reason why in America we
take a day off to celebrate the Fourth of July and not the 15th of April.
Because in American we value our independence from the government, not our
dependence on it. We need leaders in America who understand, who
ultimately understand the measure of success in government is not how many
people are dependent on the government, the measure of success in
government is how many people are no longer dependent on the government.



HAYES: That speech earned him a standing ovation. And when he is up
against a Democratic nominee who wants to make April 15th a national
holiday - July 4. Well, they are toast.

After Walker`s warm reception in Iowa, a consensus has emerged, the
Republican - may have found, it`s meant to beat in 2016.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are a number of standout moments, but George, I
would say the biggest was Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker. This was his
Iowa breakthrough.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The folks who won yesterday, Scott Walker won the
Twitter primary.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is less well known, he`s thought to be sort of dull,
and - he`s not, he`s impressive. Look - the guys - He is a good governor.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Scott Walker did his bio. He said I won three times
in the last four years. He was - he didn`t have the charisma of Ted Cruz,
but I thought the audience just seemed to be more .


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He spoke to the crowd there, they were very excited to
hear about his Wisconsin record. The conservatives in there, they liked
him, but there was nothing he said that will show up later and seem sort of
out of touch.


HAYES: All right, not everyone I should say has been impressed by the
Wisconsin governor who took the stage on Saturday with the song "I`m
shipping off to Boston" by the Dropkick Murphys playing in the background
who then later twittered at Walker "Please stop using our music in any way,
we literally hate you. Love. Dropkick Murphys." Joining me now, Robert
Costa, national political reporter for "The Washington Post." Robert, you
were of course, there, at this big confab in Iowa, do you agree with that
general impression that Walker was kind of the winner of the weekend? Or
at least made the biggest gains in terms of how he is perceived?

ROBERT COSTA, "WASHINGTON POST": He was very impressive from the
perspective of his rhetoric, from his presentation. I`ve spent time with
Walker and his father, Llewellyn Walker, a Baptist pastor that grew up
partly in Iowa. And Walker has the reputation of being pretty singsong in
his cadence low key, but pastors - preachers - they know how to turn it on,
and Walker certainly did that.

HAYES: What was your other impressions of this? I mean there was a lot of
attention paid to Steve King? I think rightly, so because of the very
extreme nature of his views on immigration among other issues. What was
your big takeaway from what this - first, kind of beauty pageant of
Republican candidates look like?

COSTA: It was also a story of who wasn`t there. Jeb Bush, Mitt Romney are
making their own - right now. They didn`t appear at Steve King`s event.
But we are going to have such a crowded Republican field to cover, Walker,
Ted Cruz, Rand Paul. He wasn`t there - Ted - Ben Carson, some of these
other Tea Party favorites. It is really going to be competitive to get
that launch out of Iowa that so many of them covet in order to compete long
term. And especially to get the money that you need to compete against the
likes of Bush and Romney.

HAYES: Today, there was some news on the Governor Perry front, the
indictment that he`s got from a prosecutor for - it`s a sort of a
complicated story about basically denying funding to an office. It`s
unclear whether it`s a policy dispute or a criminal prosecutor says it`s
criminal. That indictment is going to proceed. Scott Walker decided to
come to the aid of Rick Perry, at least on Twitter. "Prosecution of my
friend Governor Perry is outrageous, sets the dangerous precedent." Ted
Cruz also. Do you think this affects this prosecution has an effect on
Governor Perry in terms of his standing in the race?

COSTA: Maybe in a general election, but Walker`s had John Doan
investigation hanging over, and Christie has the Bridgegate. And now you
have Perry with his own legal problems in Texas. I don`t think Republican
primary voters- they weren`t talking about these kind of things at Steve
King`s event. I saw Perry, though, on Monday, I was with him at a kosher
deli in Des Moines, he was speaking with Jewish leaders there. He`s
bringing the energy, he has charisma. Why do voters really care at this
point, we`ll have to see.

HAYES: And do you think the last thing was that Sarah Palin`s speech
there, which got really roundly panned by the - the folks there. But all
sorts of - sort of interesting little reporting color of folks kind of
finally throwing in the towel on Sarah Palin. Was that your sense as well?

COSTA: I was with her on Friday night, and I asked her about the
presidency, and she said she is "seriously interested," but she is not
making any moves in that direction. Watching Palin`s speech you wonder,
what kind of role does she want to play in the Republican Party? It`s
clear from her comments to "The Washington Post" and others that she wants
to play some kind of role. That`s why she`s teasing out a potential bid,
but no one really knows where she fits and conservatives, they seem to
becoming frustrated with her pitch and the way she goes after certain

HAYES: All right, thank you, Robert Costa.

After a speech on Saturday, Scott Walker left Iowa and went to California
to attend Charles and David Koch`s semi-annual donor retreat at the Ritz-
Carlton near Palm Springs.

Now, Walker and the Koch`s gave way back. Signing state records, you know
(INAUDIBLE) Koch industry`s one of the biggest contributors to Walker`s
original election campaign for governor. The president of the non-profit
Americans for Prosperity told "The Times" executors from the Koch-backed
group have worked behind the scenes to encourage the governor show down
with public sector union. It was during that showdown that a prank caller,
pretending to be David Koch managed to get Governor Walker`s ear.


WALKER: Hall, I`ll talk: if they want to yell at me for an hour, I`m used
to that. I can deal with that. But I`m not negotiating.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bring a baseball bat, that`s what I`d do.

WALKER: I have one in my office. You`d be happy with that. I`ve got a
slugger with my name on it.



HAYES: All right. There`s been an investigation, which has now stalled
into whether there was illegal coordination between the extensively
independent political groups, including one funded by the Kochs and the
Walker campaign during - elections. Walker has denied any wrong doing.
For Governor Walker who appears to be still inconsiderate the 2016 run,
having the Koch informato (ph) is a big deal. Because the brothers and
their wealthy friends are planning to spend close to $1 billion on the

OK, not quite a billion, $889 million, to be precise. It is an
unprecedented amount for a single donor network, and it`s way above the
combined $657 million spent by the Republican National Committee. And the
party`s two congressional campaign committees in 2012. And think about
that for a second. These two men, Charles and David Koch, are positioning
themselves to effectively supersede the Republican Party in the next
presidential election. So it is no wonder their conference in California
drew a record number of attendees this year, according to "Washington
Post." They also drew some of the most talked about presidential
candidates: not just Scott Walker, but Rand Paul, Marco Rubio, and Ted
Cruz. Joining me now Heather McGhee, president of Demos and Nick
Confessore, a political reporter for "The New York Times" where he covers
money and politics.

This figure, what do we make of it? What does it mean about what 2016
looks like, what does it mean about post Citizen United campaigns?

NICK CONFESSORE, THE NEW YORK TIMES: You know, it means this is the new
normal, it means that we have institutionalized the presence of extreme
wealth and politics on both sizes of the aisle. Certainly, on the
conservative side. The resources here are staggering.

HAYES: I mean that is really a lot of money.

CONFESSORE: It`s a lot of money.

HAYES: It`s a hard .

CONFESSORE: It`s a lot of money.


CONFESSORE: I was shocked. I remember when I got the call on that figure,
I was like no, really? That much. Now .


HAYES: $890 to be clear.

CONFESSORE: No, it`s a budget.


HAYES: Do you want to pay .


CONFESSORE: Two year cycle.

HAYES: Right.

CONFESSORE: And they plan things very methodically, and this is - it is
also going to be partly for state elections and so forth.

HAYES: This is the key - the key point, though, and this is something you
report on very well, which is this isn`t just writing a check, it`s not
kind of a free lancing, eccentric billionaire who`s got someone - this is a
methodically planned, organized .

CONFESSORE: That`s right.

HAYES: Populated strategy that has an entire sort of interlocking set of
institution - around it.

CONFESSORE: You know, it`s fascinating. This is not quite a third party.
Because the important difference is they`re not trying to supplant the
Republican Party, but influence, change it, turn it into - for certain
policies, and set it in a certain direction. And they have been very
successful with that. How often do you here about a gay marriage or social
issues in the national presidential contest, except for immigration, of

HAYES: OK, so I think in a counterintuitive way that this is bad for
American democracy - this is for the post Citizen United era, but I do
think in a one way, the increased scrutiny of the kind of billionaire
primary and donor class is basically the last shred of accountability that
we can impose on a system that has lifted any kind of limits.

HEATHER MCGHEE, PRESIDENT DEMOS: Yeah, I think so. I think, obviously,
the fact that you have -- we know that the Koch brothers is planning to do
this is one step, but that said, you know, there are 300 donors behind

HAYES: Right.

MCGHEE: It`s not just the Koch brothers, and there are lots of different
Shell groups and front groups for different corporations. The Koch
brothers have really mastered using the dark money loophole of the C4 and
C60s. And we don`t really know where the money is actually coming from.

HAYES: Right. This is just - that`s a good point. This is one number, we
don`t know what other stuff is out there.

MCGHEE: Yeah. And I think most importantly here, there is - OK, we can
have transparency and accountability, but this is about fundamentally
tilting our economy in a certain direction. And on the issues that are
most important to most Americans right now, they are very outside of the
center, right? This is union busting. This is rabidly anti-tax, rabidly
anti-regulation, and so it is a real agenda, that is an economic agenda
that is very far from the center of where most Americans are.

HAYES: Do you think that we`re going to see something like this on the
Democratic side.

MCGHEE: I don`t. I don`t. I mean there was a really good .

HAYES: I mean there are sort of - sui (ph) generous figures in certain
ways because of their personal upbringing and who they are.

MCGHEE: Right. But well, there is two things that make it different.
One, I mean the scale we`re talking about, I mean there`ve been some -
talking about the democracy alliance, which is the set of donors who
organize together and have conferences.

HAYES: Right.

MCGHEE: And they have raised over their nearly ten years that they have
been organizing together what the Koch brothers can amass in one year,
right? So the scale .


MCGHEE: The scale is very different. And I think fundamentally this is
the question that people are asking about the Koch brothers, right? Their
main goal is anti-regulation, it`s very much about padding their own bottom
line, right? It`s a fossil fuel promoting industry.

HAYES: They would say - I just should say - They would say - they have -
ideological fidelity of these views whether .

MCGHEE: Whether or not it helps them. You know.

HAYES: They say that.

CONFESSORE: Listen, I would just say that there is, you know, no policy
that can be enacted that will make them substantially less wealthy in their
lifetime. So, I don`t think it`s about making money for them. I honestly

HAYES: Well, they`ve also have the greatest - it`s the greatest six years
in the history of the Koch industries .

CONFESSORE: That`s right.

HAYES: From wealth and (INAUDIBLE) standpoint under President Obama,
which, of course, is one of the great .

MCGHEE: No, of course, it is, because I mean they talk about health care a
lot, they talk about regulations in general. They very rarely actually
talk about climate change. If we actually did what we need to do on the
climate it would very much affect Koch industries. So, I think it`s very -
I think it`s important that we keep highlighting what the ends are here,
which is, unfortunately the cost of our planet for just a few narrow

HAYES: So, but answer that question. You don`t - you said the scale on
the sort of Democratic side is not sufficient, and you don`t see any
figures like this. I mean the fact is we have -- we just have billionaire
democracy at this point. We just do, it`s just a fact about American
democracy. It was true before Citizen United, but combine Citizens United
with the inequality we have, and the way we head into this 2016, really is
like this focus. It`s always like I wish we could get them into a room,
you know, for a reality show.


HAYES: Because it would be a more honest coverage of the American election
than what we are going to get.

CONFESSORE: Well, in fact, Chris, look, we are watching this part of the
campaign. And if it was a Democratic primary, it would be the same thing.
For the next six months, these guys will do one or two appearances, you
know, every couple of weeks for the public, and the rest of it is donors,
donors, donors. Every day.

HAYES: Right. They`re like dolphins. And they are like swimming among
billionaires and they come up for air with the public.

CONFESSORE: It`s a money progress.

MCGHEE: I just do have to say .


MCGHEE: It could be another way, right? So, we just did a report called
"The Money Chase Was Looked At: Big Donors Spending and Contributions in
the 2014 Midterm." And actually, there`s something that has never been
done. We looked at a few races where people who are viable candidates,
were, you know massively outspent. And said that if the bill that`s
currently in the House right now, the Government by the People Act that
would make a small donor match public cementing system in place, and showed
how much they would have been able to get because of their alliance on
small donations, they actually would have been able to run competitive

HAYES: There`s another way. That`s true. Heather McGhee. Nick
Confessore. Thank you very much.

Keeping track of just who is running or not running on 2016 is starting to
get more complicated. More than two dozen potential candidates making
noise about entering the race, we`ve decided to make a bit of sport of it.
So, this Thursday, very special, all of this breaking new ground with the
first ever "ALL IN" 2016 fantasy candidate draft. Five political expert
contestants will be here before - to the audience to draft their pics, 25
potential candidates - the United States. Tune in live, set your DVRs,
8:00 p.m., right here. It`s going to be epic.

OK, we have a lot of important news to get to tonight and we also have




HAYES: Lots more of that coming up.


HAYES: A small drone crashed on the White House South Lawn yesterday.
Apparently, too small to be detected by the radar system. I say "drone" in
quotes, because to me this thing you are looking at is really more like a
very expensive toy helicopter. This is a drone. The kind of thing that`s
been raining down death upon hundreds of suspected militants and also
civilians, including children for years. Let`s not confuse the two. That
aside, the mystery of how that drone - toy helicopter got himself on the
White House has been solved. It wasn`t these guys.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You want to take it up for a spin?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you crazy? This is not dad`s drone.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have any idea how much fun we can have with this
thing? We can spy on everyone.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My dad said it`s not for spying on people.



HAYES: It was an off duty employee for Government Intelligence Agency, who
to funk? Whose drone was according to officials, quote of "The New York
Times"; "nothing more than a drunken misadventure." Of course, the drunk
droning incident triggered headlines like this, and in an interview today
President Obama talked about it.


asked the FAA and a number of agencies to examine how are we managing this
new technology. Because the drone that landed in the White House you can
buy at radio shack.


HAYES: He`s right, these automated flying machines buzzing over our heads
need to be regulated. But also, the flying robots of death operating
thousands of miles from our shore with essentially no accountability. Back
after this.


HAYES: The blizzard that walloped much of the northeast closing schools
causing more than 7,000 flight cancellations and leaving major cities at a
standstill - it`s finally beginning to wind down this evening in most
places. But things are nowhere near back to normal: more than 20 inches
of snow fell in parts of Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New
York, Maine, and Rhode Island. Some areas getting more than 30 inches as
residents grappled with whiteout conditions and gale force winds.. On the
island of Nantucket, a popular birth place of Limor characters, located off
the coast of Massachusetts in the Atlantic Ocean, just out of Cape Cod, the
entire island lost power amid significant flooding. And winds up to 78
miles per hour with at least 11 people evacuated from their homes.

Officials cut power to homes - fires in a coastal town of Scituate 30 miles
south of Boston, as flooding prompted overnight request for evacuations.
Daily maximum snowfall records were set today. In Providence, Rhode
Island, Worcester, Massachusetts, which you got more than 28 inches today
and in Boston, where the snow continues to fall. After transit remained
closed and most residents were hunkered down in their homes, as the mayor
says schools may be shut down for the rest of the week. People did find
the ways to get out, however, including this guy, who dubbed himself the
Boston Yeti on Twitter. Just had that suit apparently lying around,
waiting to use it.

And emergency medical personnel of Brigham and Women`s Hospital who broke
out their skis and snowshoes to get into work.

Plenty of people found ways to have fun in the snow, including these kids
in New Jersey who got a sled pulled by a truck - just kind of go and say
that, doesn`t look particularly save. The heavy snowfall also made a whole
bunch of dogs, including this one very, very happy. In fact, there was
worse ways to spend time today than clicking around for videos of dogs
enjoying the snow.






HAYES: Here in New York City, officials sounded dire warnings to drastic
historically unprecedented precautions, as the snow approached, but while
the storm did bring a good coating of snow, most of New York City recorded
less than ten inches of snow in the end. Far less than forecast.

Some meteorologists decided to apologize publicly for the ultimately
incorrect forecast. The National Weather Service noted that weather bans
are nearly impossible to predict until they develop. Controversially, New
York City`s subway system was shut down overnight due to snow for the first
time in history on orders from Governor Andrew Cuomo. The decision has
prompted a lot of second guessing: the president of the MTA, which runs
the subway said on Monday there was no reason to shut down the underground
portion of the subway system since they are shielded from snow. We learned
today, Governor Cuomo gave Mayor Bill de Blasio just 15 - one, five minutes
notice before announcing the shutdown.

Grabbling from the New Yorkers, Cuomo defended his decision making today:


GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D) NEW YORK: The system is going to come back online
much faster than it would have if the trains were exposed to the
conditions, and they were shoveling out this morning. If you tally it up,
I don`t know that this wasn`t the more prudent course of action in any


HAYES: All right, joining me now is Jennifer Fermino, City Hall Bureau
Chief from "New York Daily News."

OK, let`s put aside whether it was a right thing to do to shut it down or
not. Are you freaking kidding me to give the mayor of New York 15 minutes
heads up you`re going to shut down the subways?

things I think that people - even people (INAUDIBLE), is that subway is the
total state - so he doesn`t have to talk to the mayor.

HAYES: Total? He doesn`t have to. He runs it.

FERMINO: It`s totally his decision --

HAYES: But .


HAYES: Wouldn`t you think it would be, I don`t know, courteous, to say,
oh, hey, Bill, check it out! We`re going to shut down the most vital means
of transportation in the city that you govern.

FERMINO: Mayor de Blasio agrees with you, he said today that he would have
preferred to have a little more dialogue with the governor. And that in
the future he hopes that that happens.

HAYES: OK, but come on. How do you not read this as a total power move?
I mean it just - it reads to me like I honestly can`t understand - I
understand that people have to make difficult decisions, policy makers in
the blizzard. Huge predictions for snow that didn`t pan out. But you
would imagine that like these things have to be coordinated between the
relative authorities.

FERMINO: They don`t really, like it came from the governor and he is in
charge of the MTA. The governor`s defense, you know, what they said in
response to this, was that this was a fast moving storm? They had no idea
what`s going to happen, they had to think quickly, they`ve given an update
around like noon, and said we`re going to look at the weather at 4:00 and
they did, and they made a decision, they called the mayor, and then they
went public with it.

HAYES: One of the things we`ve seen as a lot of people are talking about,
you know, erring on the side of caution. Josh Perry had a really good
piece on - on the offshoot to the "New York Times" today. Shutting down
New York`s subways is very expensive. He goes through - details here. I
mean this was a very expensive set of actions taken by both the governor
and the mayor with the thinking, I think from them being if we underprepare
we are going to get destroyed politically, it is safer to over-prepare.

FERMINO: I mean the thing is, is there used to be a time I think when you
would never shut down the subway.


FERMINO: They did it for Hurricane Irene, which was sort of - you know.

HAYES: Which was like this blizzard - it didn`t sort of pan out .

FERMINO: Right, right. Then they did it for Sandy, and it was so well
received. Because Sandy was so damaging, but I feel like that sort of like
raised the bar now that you can do it, it was before it was seen as
something you just could not possibly do.

HAYES: Do you think - I know the mayor of this -- these end up being big
political tests for anyone who`s in power. Mayor de Blasio has a fair
share of enemies essentially, that would like to see him suffer
politically. How do you think he came out of this?

FERMINO: Well, I think he came out good, I mean he had a snowstorm really,
right, when he was elected that he sort of by everybody`s admission kind of
screwed up. This one, you know .

HAYES: Including charges that he did not pile the streets of the city`s
Upper East Side .


HAYES: Because there are rich people there.

FERMINO: Right. Right.

HAYES: And he was starting on a foot of class war by a snow plow.

FERMINO: With this, it really wasn`t a snowstorm, so it was so hyped up.
Of course, he is going to .


FERMINO: Yeah, Yeah, it`s like - I mean it was like ten inches, you know
what I mean, so - but I don`t think anybody - I don`t think really the blow
back, no pun intended was that he did it - you know, that he overhyped it

HAYES: Yeah.

FERMINO: It seems like the predictions were there. And that sort of - it
seems like (INAUDIBLE)

HAYES: Jennifer Fermino, thank you very much.

FERMINO: Thank you.

HAYES: All right, if you were paying attention to the president`s visit to
Saudi Arabia today, you may have noticed the giant delegation he brought
with him. You may have also noticed the first lady doing some things she
normally doesn`t do. What those were, next.

Plus, the first openly gay state legislator in Alabama threatens to expose
who among her colleagues has had an affair. I`ll ask her why she`s doing
that ahead.


HAYES: Today the Obamas cut their trip to India short to pay their
respects to King Abdullah, the Saudi monarch who died last week at the age
of 90.

At first, the scene of their arrival to greet the new Saudi king plays out
in a fairly familiar way. President and First Lady walking side by side out
of Air Force One to greet a U.S. ally. Then things start to veer into less
familiar territory. If you watch the tape carefully, you can see Michelle,
who did not have her head covered, step back and let her husband lead the
way towards all male Saudi delegation.

According to the poll report this was not by accident. The First Lady
purposely stood next to, but slightly behind the President to adhere to the
Saudi royal family`s cultural disposition towards womens`, let`s say,
second placeness.

Minutes later, Michelle Obama stood next to her husband while he shook the
hands of dozens of men, some shook her hand and some did not, according to
the pool report. First Lady waited for a gesture to be made to her by the
men who walked by. If the man initiated the handshake, she smiled and shook
their hand. If not, both she and the man politely smiled and nodded heads.

Now, the President and First lady were the most high profiled for the visit
but they were most certainly not alone, not by a long shot.

The United States, get this, sent a delegation over 20 people to honor the
late king. A who is who of high ranking government officials that included
Secretary of State, John Kerry, National Security Adviser, Susan Rice, CIA
Director, John Brennan, former Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice, House
Minority Leader, Nancy Pelosi and Senator John McCain to name a few.

It was quite the gesture.

It comes less than three weeks after cell phone video appeared to capture
the public lashing of a Saudi blogger for insulting Islam, something that
lead to wide spread international criticism. Under pressure, the Saudi`s
postponed his second round of lashings on medical grounds. Most are not so

When asked if he was speaking to the new Saudi king about the case,
President demurred and said "The relationship between the two countries was
about balance".


apply steady, consistent pressure, even as we are getting business done
that needs to get done. And often times that makes some of our allies
uncomfortable. It makes them frustrated. Sometimes we have to balance our
need to speak to them about human right`s issues with immediate concerns
that we have, in terms of countering terrorism or dealing with regional


HAYES: Now the President didn`t seem to eager to talk about the Saudi`s
dismal human rights record, but, if you are, there could be a great
opportunity for you to express yourself, courtesy of the Department of

Yesterday, the D.O.D. announced an essay competition to honor the Saudi
king. Sponsored by the Chairmen of the Joint Chief`s of Staff himself. It`s
billed in the release as "an important opportunity to honor the memory of
the king..."

So, if you would like to honor the memory of King Abdullah in your own way,
this could be your chance.


HAYES: A federal judge struck down Alabama`s same sex marriage ban last
week. The decision came from a George W. Bush appointed federal judge
ruling in favor of two same sex couples who filed lawsuits. But, marriage
lionesses are not yet being in Alabama, the judge put her own decision on
hold for two weeks while the state while the state appeals it.

Meanwhile, some Alabama conservatives are voicing their objections to the
judge`s ruling, defending the states ban on same sex marriage. And that has
led State Representative Patricia Todd, who is also Alabama`s first openly
gay elected state official to throw down the gauntlet.

Taking to Facebook to write over the weekend, "I will not stand by and
allow legislators to talk about "family values" when they have affairs, and
I know of many who are and have. I will call our elected officials who want
to hide in
the closet OUT".

And joining me now is the women wrote that, Alabama Democratic State
Representative, Patricia Todd.

Representative Todd, is this a bit of sort of idol boasting on your part?
Is this any actual threat? Are you going to do this?

proof because I wasn`t the person involved in the affair, but the rumor
mills is pretty strong in Montgomery and, my purpose was to say, be careful
when you cast that stone of family values, you need to look at your own
family values first before you attack ours.

HAYES: Let me make sure I understand this correctly, because I`ve covered
politicians a lot. Are you suggesting there are politicians, state
legislatures, you`re saying, in Alabama, who may be violating their
marriage vows? State legislatures violating their marriage vows? That is
very difficult for me to
believe, I have to say.

TODD: Shocking. And what`s is interesting is Alabama is the most
conservative, most Christian state in the country, yet our divorce rate is
fourth in the country.

HAYES: So, what do you think is going to happen here? I mean, the broader
issue is that that kind of rhetoric served conservatives across the country
very well for a long time, particularly in the South, in a state like
Alabama, which is a very conservative state. What do you see as the next
step here? I mean are the people who are expressing their displeasure with
this ruling for the court going to keep their displeasure and just kind of
swallow it, or what is going
to happen?

TODD: Well, remember this is Alabama and we don`t have a really good
history when it comes to the Federal Courts telling us what to do. I like
to say that Missouri is the show me state and Alabama is the make me state.

You know, they`ll have to get over it, but in the meantime we are hearing a
lot of rhetoric from the conservative Republicans and I just want to remind
them they don`t have the corner on family values, that there are thousands
of gay couples across the state, many raising children, who have much
stronger family
values then they do.

And it`s an attempt to try to cool the rhetoric. If you want to talk to me
about the merits of the issue, that that`s fine, but I`m not going to let
you get
away with a five-second soundbite where you can condemn me and my

HAYES: There are 36 states that have allowed marriage equality. There`s 14
states right now that are banning it. This issue is going before the court
and will be settled, we suspect, uni formally in some direction.

Today, the infamous Roy Moore, who is, once again, Chief Justice of the
Alabama State Supreme Court, which is in and of itself an amazing fact
because he was stripped of that title before because he refused to remove
the ten commandments from his courthouse, "today the destruction of the
institution of marriage is upon
us by federal courts using speech as pretext based on Equal protection, Due
Process, and Full Faith and Credit Clauses of the United States

I guess my question is is how big of a percentage of the voters of the
voters of Alabama does Roy Moore speak for when he says stuff like that?

TODD: I`d say about 10%. The reality is--- I do. The only way he elected
was in Alabama you can go into the voting booth and vote straight party.
So, the Republicans had, obviously, many people went in and just pulled
that lever and he got elected. But I have talked to many Republicans who
would not have
voted for him, but he got elected due to that

HAYES: State Representative Patricia Todd, we will follow this if you want
to make any news down there, or right here on this program, just let us

TODD: I appreciate it.

HAYES: Alright, a big new piece of news in Deflategate. What was the
Patriot`s locker room attendant allegedly doing in the bathroom with two
bags of balls for ninety seconds before the start of the game? Now stop it,
get your mind out of the gutter. We`re going to talk about that ahead.


HAYES: What I see this all heading towards is some poor equipment manager
at the bottom of the totem pole is 100% going to take the fall for this.

DAVE : Absolutely, I mean if I was an equipment manager for the Patriots,
I wouldn`t even be boiling eggs at this point. I would be really, hopefully
I didn`t have a mortgage, I would be like let me get out of here because
this is going to get kicked down the train until somebody is gone.

HAYES: Last week Dave --- speculated that the Deflategate controversy was
going to eventually land at the feet of some hapless, low level employee.
This week, Fox sports reporter Jay Glazer, citing unnamed sources, reported
there`s now a person of interest, quote, "The NFL has zeroed in on a locker
room attendant with the Patriots". On that report NBC sports reported that
according to one unnamed lead source the person carried, quote, "two bags
of balls into the bathroom. The twelve balls to be used by the Patriots and
the 12 balls to be used by the Colts".

The video shows the employee in the bathroom for approximately 90 seconds.

The question, could the employee have deflated 11 of the 12 Patriot
footballs in a bathroom in a minute and a half? Is that even possible?

Two days before this report came out, the coach of the New England
Bill Belichick suggested that the drop in pressure in his team`s ball was
probably due to quote, "rubbing process" along with atmospheric conditions.
That theory was knocked down by rep for Wilson Sporting Goods, the
manufacturer of NFL footballs, who said quote, "That`s B.S. That`s".

And by Bill Nye, the science guy, who said Belichick`s theory, quote,
"didn`t make any sense."

That has not stopped some very prominent conservatives from rushing to the
Patriot`s defense. Here`s Rupert Murdoch, a guy who knows a thing or two
about bending the rules tweeting, quote, "ridiculous charges against
Patriots. A great team by any standards with good, tough leadership. Big
winners always attract naysayers."

And here is Bill Kristol`s tweet. "Am I alone in feeling it`s time to
rally to Bill Belichick, a tough impressive winner being hounded by a bunch
of whiny goodie two-shoes?"

It appears right now that Deflategate won`t hurt the Patriots, at least not
before Sunday`s Superbowl. And the Seattle Seahawks` Richard Sherman who
will be lining up against Tom Brady and the Patriots in a few days thinks
he knows why. It has to do with a relationship between NFL commissioner
Roger Goodell and Patriots owner Robert Kraft.


RICHARD SHERMAN, SEATTLE SEAHAWK: Will they be punished? Probably not.
You know, not as long as Robert Kraft and Roger Goodell are still taking
pictures at they`re respective homes, you know. I think he was just at
Kraft`s house last week before the AFC championship. You know, you talk
about conflict of interest.


HAYES: That`s not some conspiracy theory. Here is the picture Sherman
referenced showing Goodell indeed at Kraft`s house the night before the AFC
championship game.

Robert Kraft said today that since that party was for team sponsors, which
he says not only helps the team, but the NFL grow revenues, that Sherman
benefited from that party too.

But a deeply reported article in GQ, Gabriel Sherman, no relation to
Richard, points out this choice little morsel, quote, "so large is Kraft`s
sway with Goodell that one veteran NFL executive likes to call him the
assistant commissioner."

Now, one of the two Shermans I just referenced will join me at this table



Super Bowl. What do you care? Do you like? Do you want? Do you know

LOUIE CK, COMEDIAN: Well, I`m from Boston so I`m a Patriots fan.

LETTERMAN: There you go.

Now why are they so oily?

LOUIE CK: Well, because they want to win real bad. So sometimes you do
stuff that`s not fair so that you can win. I have no problem with it. I
think it is hilarious...

LETTERMAN: Well, it is hilarious.

LOUIE CK: And why not, it is a stupid football game. I mean, just deflate
the balls, poke a guy in the eye or whatever. It`s football.


HAYES: Louie CK as is his want had the best take on this.

Joining me now Gabe Sherman whose article on the relationship between
Patriots owner Robert Kraft and NFL commissioner Roger Goodell is up on
GQ`s website and in the February issue.

And ESPN`s Bomani Jones, cohost of the sports talk show Highly

All right, Gabe, so how -- this piece must have been in the works for much

GABRIEL SHERMAN, SPORTS WRITER: Yes. I mean, I couldn`t have planned it
any better. I mean, I worked on this for four months, and I just kept
hearing over and over again that to understand the NFL you have to
understand the relationship between Roger Goodell the commissioner and
Robert Kraft the owner of the Patriots.

HAYES: What is that relationship? Why is it so key to understanding this
multibillion dollar enterprise, which is one of the most powerful and
lucrative brands in America?

SHERMAN: So back up, Roger Goodell became commissioner in 2006. Robert
Kraft was one of his biggest champions in helping propel him into this
office. He sits on the league committee that determines Roger Goodell`s
salary. He makes $44 million per year.

HAYES: Roger Goodell does?

SHERMAN: Roger Goodell does.

HAYES: Just 44 mil?

SHERMAN: Robert Kraft is on that committee that decides that.

He is also on the broadcast committee that negotiates the multibillion
dollar rights deals.

HAYES: Which is the main source of revenue.

SHERMAN: With the networks.

And so Roger Goodell, his inner circle is a select group of owners, but the
number one owner in that circle is Robert Kraft.

HAYES: What do you think this -- how do you think the two of them reacting
to this entire...

SHERMAN: Well, this is a -- I would just love to be a fly on the wall
here. For the first time really anyone can remember, they`re on the
opposite sides of an issue.

Kraft does not want discipline in Deflategate scandal, Goodell has to come
out and do something that shows that he has control over this league. So
now he is essentially at odds with his biggest ally.

HAYES: And here is Kraft -- Bomani, here is Kraft sort of -- I think sort
of firing a warning shot towards Roger Goodell with this statement about
demanding an apology if they`re cleared. Take a listen.


ROBERT KRAFT, OWNER, NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS: If the Wells investigation is
not able to definitively determine that our organization tampered with the
air pressure in the footballs, I would expect and hope that the league
would apologize to our entire team, and in particular, Coach Belichick and
Tom Brady for what they have had to endure this past week.


HAYES: Two observations. First of all, the verb endure seems a little
much there. Second of all, Robert Kraft`s hair game is tight.

Aside from that Bomani Jones, what do you think?

BOMANI JONES, ESPN: Well, I wish he would have gone and ahead and used the
word besmirched so it could be full on Godfather 2. Like that`s what we
wound up with. He pulled Goodell`s guard. He basically said if you don`t
have anything, you owe me an apology, which I think ties to a point that
Mike Flourier (ph) of Pro Football Talk has made, Dan Wetzel wrote on this,
which is it seems like this could have been fixed weeks ago with a phone
call to the Patriots saying hey, guys, knock it off.

Instead it seems like the Patriots feel as though the league tried to set
them up. And if you`ve got the relationship with Goodell that Kraft has as
outlined in Gabriel`s piece, then you wind up in a situation where you,
Robert Kraft, feel really betrayed by a guy that you help make $44 million
a year. Rich people don`t like that at all.

HAYES: OK. So here is the real question, which gets to something
genuinely I think profound about the rule of law and rules generally,
right, which is like do these rules mean anything? Like is it just
relationships between people with relative amounts of power? Or is there
some kind of like actual rules? Not that I care that much either way -- to
be clear, I don`t care.

SHERMAN: You are touching on the fundamental controversy of the Goodell
era, which is that he make decisions that don`t seem to have any basis in

You know, look at Spygate. He punished the Patriots in 2007, fined Bill
Belichick, the coach. They lost a draft pick.

Fast forward to the bountygate scandal with the New Orleans Saints, suspend
Sean Peyton for a year, suspends a raft of players. All of those...

HAYES: Some of which overturned...

SHERMAN: ...were vacated by his predecessor Paul Tagliabue.

And then you have the Ray Rice scandal where he suspends him for two games.
There`s an outpouring of public criticism. Then he suspends him
indefinitely once the video is released.

So we don`t have any standard of rule of law within the NFL under the
Goodell era.

JONES: Well, that is one interesting part about this, though, is people
say we`re only here because it`s the Patriots. That`s partially why we`re
here. The other reason why we`re here is the dwindling credibility of
Roger Goodell. You need to go back to Spygate, see all the materials that
wound up being destroyed, which leaves all those questions

And what happens with your dwindling credibility it`s -- it doesn`t just
hit you all at one time, it`s piece by piece by piece and then look up and
you`re Goodell and now you have to answer for footballs.

HAYES: All right. So, today was media day, which is a big day for
Marshawn Lynch, star running back of course of the Seattle Seahawks
famously does not like to talk to the press. He usually gives them the
same rote answer over and over again. Ed Warner (ph), ESPN reporter had
tweeted that he was threatened with a half million dollar fine if he didn`t
show up to media day. So he showed up and here is how played media day.
Take a listen.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Marshawn Lynch, it`s your show, take it away.

MARSHAWN LYNCH, SEATTLE SEAHAWK: So, I can sit here and answer all the
questions you all want to. I`m going with the same answer, so you all can
shoot if you all please.

I`m here so I won`t be fined.

I`m here so I won`t get fined.

I`m here so I won`t get fined.

I`m here so I won`t get fined.

I`m here so I won`t get fined.

I`m just here so I won`t get fined.

I`m here so I won`t get fined.

I`m here so I won`t get fined.

I`m just here so I won`t get fined.

I`m just here so I won`t get fined.

Hey, I`m here so I won`t get fined.


HAYES: All right, this was very polarizing, Bomani. Marshawn Lynch,
ungrateful jerk or sort of amazing hero of labor resistance to management?

JONES: It is probably neither, right. Like the only reason -- first of
all I find it to be insane that the most memorable thing about media day is
him doing that. Like that should tell you everything you need to know
about how ridiculous this has all gotten.

He doesn`t want to do it. He does seem to be uncomfortable with doing it,
which raises its own set of questions. But the people who have such a
problem with the fact that he is doing this really seem to have a problem
with the fact that nobody can tell them what to do. And that seems to me
at the surface to be what the issue is, because nobody is building their
stories around Marshawn Lynch at this point. And if you`re not one of
those people tracking him down, why are you mad. If you are one of the
people there who is mad, there`s a lot of other people that you could go
talk to. You know you`re not getting this guy. You`re mad because he
won`t break for you.

HAYES: Media day is another reminder of just the sort of power and
centrality of the NFL in American culture and enterprise.

SHERMAN: Oh, it is by far the most powerful entertainment brand in
America. It is still consistently the biggest audience in broadcast
television. Revenues are north of $10 billion. So, really, I mean, Roger
Goodell, don`t think of him as a football guy, you`ve got to think of him
as the CEO of a massive corporation.

HAYES: And one of the most important corporations and one of the most
powerful corporations in the whole country. I mean, nothing else at this
point can deliver 60 million viewers the way an NFL football game can.

SHERMAN: No. In our fractured media world...

HAYES: And that`s not going to change.

JONES: But that is his mistake. Because he looks like a CEO and not a
football guy when people care more about football than a CEO.

HAYES: Gabe Sherman and Bomani Jones, thank you for joining us.

That is ALL IN for this evening. "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts now.


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