Show: THE LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE O`DONNELL
Date: March 2, 2015
Guest: Steve LaTourette, Beth Fouhy, Jeremy Peters, Evan Kohlmann, Herb
Greenberg, Herb Greenberg, Evan Kohlmann, Negin Farsad
RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC: Maybe she`ll get a vote sometime or -- "POLITICO"
reports this afternoon that there will be no vote on the new Attorney
General this week.
Senate Republicans are reportedly not talking about when that vote might
happen, maybe she`ll get a vote sometime or some other time, some time when
the Senate has room for little chores like hiring a chief law enforcement
officer for the nation to whom no one has any substantive objection.
Meanwhile, the current occupant of that job says he`ll happily stay until
his replacement is confirmed, which you think would make Republicans crazy
because they hate Eric Holder so much.
But apparently in this Senate, the crazy is less powerful than the lazy or
whatever it is that`s keeping them from voting on Loretta Lynch.
Tick-tock. Now, it`s time for THE LAST WORD with Lawrence O`Donnell, good
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, HOST, THE LAST WORD: Good evening Rachel. We do have
that breaking news about Hillary Clinton`s use of personal --
MADDOW: Right --
O`DONNELL: E-mails at the State Department which you first referred to,
we`ll develop a little bit more on it that we`re going to get into.
MADDOW: Excellent, thanks Lawrence.
O`DONNELL: Thanks, Rachel. Well, today, Dick Cheney actually showed up on
Capitol Hill to address house Republicans, also the Islamic State
reportedly threatens Twitter`s co-founder.
And the "New York Times" has breaking news tonight about Hillary Clinton`s
use of personal e-mail when she was Secretary of State.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you like your job?
REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), SPEAKER, UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES:
Most days. Friday wasn`t a whole lot of fun, but most days.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Speaker Boehner after losing control of his caucus,
and an embarrassing defeat late Friday night.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lawmakers are facing a new Friday deadline.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What the house should do is exactly what the Senate
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do they have a plan that would have gotten what they
wanted? This small group you say that basically undermined your efforts?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not that I know of.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Iraqi forces launched a new offensive today to re-take
Saddam Hussein`s hometown from ISIS.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Looks like your ride is here --
You be careful, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dad, it`s just ISIS.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The assassination of Russian opposition leader and
fierce Putin critic Boris Nemtsov.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was killed because of political activities, and he
was killed because he was Nemtsov.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: About 22 seconds after Jones makes the jump, something
goes wrong in mid air. The 22-year-old who has epilepsy says he blacked
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, PRIME MINISTER, ISRAEL: You may not have heard, see,
I`ll be speaking in Congress tomorrow.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: As a matter of policy, we
think it`s a mistake.
NETANYAHU: Never has so much been written about a speech that hasn`t been
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Earlier tonight, Senate Democrats blocked what is usually a
routine procedural motion to enter into a conference with the House Of
Representatives over the Senate version of the bill and the house version
of the same bill.
In this case, for the funding of the Department of Homeland Security, but
nothing -- but nothing is routine in Congress anymore.
Harry Reid says Democrats are blocking the conference because the only real
difference between the bills is that the house bill nullifies President
Obama`s executive actions on immigration.
And the Senate Democrats want that provision simply stripped out of the
house bill. In other words, for the Democrats in the Senate, there is
nothing to negotiate in conference.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. HARRY REID (D), NEVADA: I`ve been very clear for days now that we
will not go to conference. The majority knows that, the speaker of the
house knows that, Senate Democrats will not support going to conference
because it will be just totally counter-productive.
House Republicans have no intention using that conference to grab
legislation or pass both house of Congress.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: The Senate`s refusal now to go to conference makes it at least
theoretically possible for Democrats in the House of Representatives to
employ an obscure house rule to force the Senate bill to come to a vote in
Republican Congressman Steve King of Iowa who voted against both the short-
term funding measures last Friday has introduced a resolution to block
house Democrats from using that rule.
Joining me now is MSNBC`s senior editor Beth Fouhy, "New York Times"
Congressional reporter and MSNBC contributor Jeremy Peters, and former
Republican Congressman Steve LaTourette.
Steve LaTourette, what happens next?
STEVE LATOURETTE, FORMER CONGRESSMAN: Well, it is really a matter of
whether cooler heads actually prevail, but I don`t think that`s going to
You know, as a -- as a Republican, when they came back for the deadline of
February the 27th and this judge had given them a gift by staying the
President`s executive orders on immigration, they had won.
You know, the Homeland Security bill was a bill written by Republicans,
funded at Republican-wanted levels and the stated purpose was to stop what
the President was doing, what the immigration -- this judge had done that.
And I really thought, my goodness, this is wonderful, you can declare
victory, go home and then move on to other things.
Cooler heads did not prevail and you continue to have 50, 51, 52
Republicans who -- they don`t have a plan B. I thought that -- in the
clips introducing the show, the most telling was Speaker Boehner saying, do
they have a plan?
He says not that I`m aware of. Well, I don`t think anybody is aware of it,
and they never have a plan B, they just know what they don`t want, and that
really isn`t what happens when you`re trying to govern a country.
O`DONNELL: But Beth Fouhy, isn`t it John Boehner who has to have the plan
BETH FOUHY, SENIOR EDITOR, MSNBC: Well, you know that at the end of the
day they`re going to vote for a clean bill and they are going to fund the
Department of Homeland Security.
This is all just --
O`DONNELL: You know --
FOUHY: Crazy kabuki theater --
O`DONNELL: I was saying that last week, I hate to taking the suspense out
of it. But that`s --
Was saying last week because we`ve seen these plays run before.
FOUHY: I know, but finally, I mean Lawrence, let`s face it. I mean
Republicans have marginalized themselves so much now that they are both the
shutdown party and the party that opposes immigration.
And they are going on a suicide mission with this one. There was a great
study that came out today from the Senate -- from the American Progress in
Brooklyn called "States of Change".
It said that by 2060, eleven of the sixteen largest states in the United
States are going to be majority-minority. Basically, Hispanics are going
to be a larger percentage of the population, then white people.
That means Hispanic voters, and that means that if Republicans don`t figure
out a way to clean up their act with Hispanic voters, they`re going to lose
their relevance as a national party.
And doing what they`re doing around the President`s action on -- executive
action is not going to help them in that.
O`DONNELL: Jeremy Peters, do you think the Democrats will actually be able
to use this rule to kind of pole vault the Senate bill onto the house floor
and get a vote on it?
JEREMY PETERS, CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER, NEW YORK TIMES: I think ultimately
the end result is a clean bill.
I think that that is where Republicans are starting to come around and
realize that at the end of the week, they may not have any other option.
Now whether or not there`s another short-term funding bill that just buys
more time until John Boehner and his lieutenants can convince more
conservatives to come around, I don`t know.
But I do know that the end result will not only be -- well, I don`t know,
but I can almost predict with quite a bit of certainty that the end result
will be a clean bill.
Clean bill, the end result will also be a weakened Speaker Boehner. And I
think that more than anything else right now is the goal of a lot of people
inside the conservative movement.
They see a vulnerable speaker, they see somebody who`s faced set-back after
set-back in dealing with these conservative members, and right now a lot of
them smell blood.
It`s not only harmful for Boehner, it`s harmful for McConnell as well,
because over in the Senate, he has won it, he is the guy, remember, who
said no more shutdowns.
There will not be any Republican shutdowns in this new Congress. Now, he
has a bunch of stuff he wants to get to. He wants this week to get to a
Keystone veto override.
He has to get to Loretta Lynch, the President`s nominee for Attorney
General. And Congress is also in the middle of trying to figure out what
to do with this war resolution that President Obama has asked for.
So there are far more pressing matters that the Congress right now could be
focusing on, but they`re not.
O`DONNELL: Now, let`s listen to Republican Peter King who can`t be out-
Republican by anyone. Let`s listen to what he has to say about this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. PETER KING (R), NEW YORK: There`s a wing within the Congress which is
absolutely irresponsible. They have no concept of reality.
Listen, I am as opposed to the President`s immigration action as they are.
But the fact is, it`s essential that we fund the Department of Homeland
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Steve LaTourette, what do the tea party types in the house
think when they hear Peter King say that?
LATOURETTE: Well, they get mad, and you know, he like I were squishers,
were traders, were kind of vivid moderate and so forth and so on.
And you know, but Peter and I on this issue, we --
O`DONNELL: Well --
LATOURETTE: Think alike --
O`DONNELL: Steve, can I interrupt you for a second?
O`DONNELL: Peter King is not a moderate. I`m not sure you fit the
definition of moderate. What you are, are people who are actually able to
see realistically what the playing field will allow.
That doesn`t make you a moderate, that just makes you someone who knows how
to get from here to there.
LATOURETTE: Well, thank you for the compliment. But one of my wife`s
favorite stories is when I was elected in 1994, another guy from Ohio,
Steve Chabot who is very conservative.
And we used to say that, and she said after this 2010 election, you
remember when we thought Chabot was a conservative? He`s like a moderate
So the scale continues to shift a little bit. But no, I think that Peter
and I come from the governing wing of the party.
We -- you know, we actually think when you work for the government, govern
is a big part of the government word.
And you should try and figure out a way out of it rather than just figuring
out a way to blow it up. And when you talk about, you know, the speaker
being in trouble, OK, he`s in trouble, but once again they don`t have a
So you throw John Boehner out, but who is going to be the speaker? They
don`t know, I mean Louie Gohmert to -- or Daniel Webster or -- plain -- get
out -- or the -- my favorite was the guy from Florida, Yahoo or Yoho, Yoho,
And then he voted for himself. He was the only guy who voted for himself
on opening day, but he says Yoho for Yoho, is that what we want in this
O`DONNELL: Don`t tempt us with such entertaining options as possible
speaker. You know, Orrin Hatch, Senator Orrin Hatch, Republican Orrin
Hatch has a new name for this problematic wing in the -- in the house
Let`s listen to what he is calling them now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ORRIN HATCH (R), UTAH: We`ve got a small segment of our Republicans
and they`re not really Republicans.
They are independents really, who are so far to the right that they don`t
see anything good in working with the people on the left at all.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: They`re independents, Beth, that`s what they`re dealing with.
FOUHY: They don`t -- he says they don`t want to work with anyone on the
left. They don`t --
O`DONNELL: Yes --
FOUHY: Want to work with anybody a little bit to the left of them --
O`DONNELL: They don`t want to work --
FOUHY: Very right --
O`DONNELL: They don`t want to work with Peter King --
Leftist Peter King.
FOUHY: Oh, you know, they --
O`DONNELL: Yes --
FOUHY: Don`t want to work with Steve King, but not Peter King.
O`DONNELL: Right --
FOUHY: No, but the weird thing about this house Republicans is, they don`t
know how to win.
O`DONNELL: Yes --
FOUHY: They won with a historic majority in November. They could do so
much and be so --
O`DONNELL: With Steve`s point --
FOUHY: Productive --
O`DONNELL: They had a huge victory with the court where they could have
easily claimed --
FOUHY: Right --
O`DONNELL: That does it --
FOUHY: That`s the other thing --
O`DONNELL: You know, the court has stopped the executive action.
FOUHY: Exactly --
O`DONNELL: Therefore, we`re going to move on, on this bill, they had a
FOUHY: Right, they are -- what`s the expression? They`re snatching defeat
from the jaws of victory. They could have declared victory, gone home,
moved on to more pressing matters.
Instead they have to re-enforce this image of themselves as being
obstructionist, as being unwilling to do the people`s business. It`s very
O`DONNELL: Jeremy Peters, to that question of the side that`s trying to
undermine John Boehner, Republicans trying to undermine him, who would they
suggest as a possible speaker if they could depose Boehner?
PETERS: I think Steve is absolutely right, they do not have a viable
contender. Daniel Webster was their choice, you know, he didn`t end up
getting more than a handful of votes in January.
So they don`t -- and this is a problem for the conservative movement right
now. And I spent the afternoon talking to a lot of people, a lot of
activists inside the movement and they were actually expressing a lot of
frustration right now.
That with regards to the DHS funding fight, they don`t have a plan to move
forward. And they think that that`s kind of problematic of the state of
the movement in general right now.
Is, they don`t -- they know how to say no, they know how to oppose the
President`s agenda, but they don`t have a way to articulate how they would
And that`s a real problem, especially if you look at 2016. And it`s also,
interestingly enough, opened the door for a personality-driven movement.
So you have people like, you know, Donald Trump and Sarah Palin, these
larger-than-life characters who fill -- then fill that void, because it`s
really not a movement that has articulated a lot of ideas.
O`DONNELL: So Steve, is the Boehner move just to sit back and let the
Democrats who use this rule to get a vote in the house on the Senate bill?
LATOURETTE: I don`t know. I do know for a fact in full disclosure John
Boehner is a good friend of mine, that he met with his most trusted members
of the house for a long time Friday afternoon.
And they`re -- and they`re attempting to come up with a strategy to deal
with this. And against all of our advice, I mean I advised him for a
number of years, this same bunch advised him.
We told him, if you want to turn the corner here, you got to chop off a few
heads figuratively, not literally, and you`ve got to take no prisoners.
And the example is that Nancy Pelosi wouldn`t let this happen and John
O`DONNELL: But what tools does he have -- what is the chopping off of
LATOURETTE: Well, you know, I don`t think it`s appropriate that after six
of the members who voted against him on opening day have now been promoted
to be subcommittee chairmen on committees.
That certainly does not send the heightened message, and so I think that
stripping people of that sort of thing would send the right message, but
promoting them for -- you sticking their finger in your eye, that probably
O`DONNELL: Former Congressman Steve LaTourette gets the last word on this
tonight. Thanks very much for joining us tonight sir.
LATOURETTE: Thank you.
O`DONNELL: Beth, Jeremy, hang around, we got more to cover here about the
breaking news about Hillary Clinton`s personal e-mails while she was
Secretary of State.
O`DONNELL: We had a breaking news report from the "New York Times" which
we`re just getting through right now, indicating that "Hillary Clinton may
have violated federal requirements that official correspondence be retained
as part of the State Department`s records."
She used only personal e-mail when she was at the State Department, she
never had a State Department e-mail address. That breaking news story is
O`DONNELL: We have breaking news from the "New York Times". The "Times"
has just posted a new report that says when Hillary Clinton was Secretary
of State, she exclusively used a personal e-mail account for all of her
government business and that that might have violated federal rules.
The "Times" reports that her aides did not preserve the e-mails on State
Department servers as required by the federal records Act.
The "Times" also reports that Hillary Clinton did not have a government e-
mail address during the four years that she was at the State Department.
The e-mail account was discovered by the house committee investigating the
Benghazi attack, according to the "Times" report. Back with me is MSNBC`s
Beth Fouhy and Jeremy Peters of the "New York Times".
Jeremy, this is a rather startling development to the -- and we`re just
getting it from the "Times" now.
It is not unusual for people in Hillary Clinton`s position to have a
personal e-mail account, but according to everyone`s understanding of it,
it is only supposed to be used for government business in an emergency.
When, say, there was some problem in the State Department`s servers and
they couldn`t use that e-mail. What do you expect the reaction to be
tomorrow on Capitol Hill about this?
PETERS: Well, as you correctly pointed out, Steve -- Lawrence, it`s not
unusual for candidates -- elected officials to have these personal e-mail
What is unusual is for them to conduct all of their business on these
personal e-mail accounts. Now as a reporter who`s filed public information
requests for these types of correspondence before, you know, you would
typically see that not all business is being conducted in the open like it
Now, as my colleague Michael Schmitt(ph), who is a really tenacious
reporter and dug around a lot trying to figure this out, discovered, you
know, Hillary Clinton has opened herself up to, you know, a really big
Which is how forthcoming is she willing to be? And this is an issue that
kind of dogged her when she ran in 2008, that she was trying to keep things
from getting out into the public.
And I think for anyone who thinks that we`ve seen all there is to see about
Hillary Clinton, that all of her dirty laundry has been aired, you know,
they`re realizing now that, that`s just not the case.
O`DONNELL: Beth, the "Times" report indicates that under federal law,
these kind of the -- official e-mails reserved for the state are considered
government records and they`re supposed to be retained so that
Congressional committees, historians and members of the news media can find
Also that John Kerry, for example, has always used nothing but State
Department`s e-mail as secretary. And there`s another expert in here
saying that personal e-mails are not secure, senior officials should not be
And this is not, you know, a senior official at the Environmental
Protection Agency of the Department of Agriculture. This is the Secretary
of State, using a not-secure, commercial e-mail system.
FOUHY: Right. And as fabulous as the story is, an incredible reporting by
the "New York Times". I just have to think there`s something more going on
Because there`s just -- it raises so many questions. I mean number one,
where were the State Department lawyers who allowed this to go forward?
Where were the people, you know, top diplomats in other countries receiving
these e-mails from you know, firstname.lastname@example.org or something like that.
Saying, wait a minute, this can`t possibly be, an official message from the
Secretary of State of the United States. I mean, there`s just so many
questions that are unanswered about this.
I mean she is a very secretive person, there`s no question about it as
Jeremy mentioned. And yet, she understands rules and she understands
And for her to just willingly violate it just to preserve some semblance of
privacy just really makes no sense. I`m really looking forward -- she`s
got a big speech tomorrow night at the Emily`s List 30th Anniversary
She`s going to have to address this there and I`m really curious to see
what she`s going to have to say --
O`DONNELL: I suspect she will not have any real addressing of it in that
location. Well, Jeremy, the CIA director in Bill Clinton`s administration
as I recall got into very serious trouble by having some of his CIA
information at a computer at home.
But nothing like this were in effect all of the electronic communication
that she was issuing on e-mail was sent out into a -- to a -- basically
through a private company to distribute.
Now, this is a stunning breach of security.
PETERS: Right. And that`s one of the things that my colleague Michael
Schmitt raises in the story, is you know, the -- we don`t know if the e-
mail she was using, even though it was personal was somehow encrypted.
You know, there are just so many unanswered questions right here. And I
think that this story is going to continue to play out for a few more days.
O`DONNELL: Well, if it`s true that she never used a State Department e-
mail address, we have something that, at first-read, has no conceivable
rational explanation to what that is legitimate.
What -- or I mean Beth, what could it possibly be? I mean --
FOUHY: And you know what is the other sort of amazing thing about it, is
this was uncovered basically by the Benghazi Committee. And --
O`DONNELL: Yes --
FOUHY: Democrats and opponents of the Benghazi Committee have been going
on and on saying they`re just wasting their time, all this questions have
This is just political or this is just redundant. And yet, we have an
example of something very significant that was raised by this committee.
So I think this emboldens Republicans to continue to sort of pry away at
her and to see what else she`s hiding.
O`DONNELL: Well, it`s been on -- the "New York Times" is on it, I mean the
media is going to be all over it. It doesn`t matter what the Republican do
at this point.
Beth Fouhy and Jeremy Peters, thank you both for joining me tonight.
PETERS: Thank you.
O`DONNELL: Coming up, the Islamic State threatens the life of the founder
and CEO of Twitter and "Saturday Night Live" could be next after their
commercial parody about the Islamic State this weekend.
O`DONNELL: Islamic State supporters threatens to wage war, a real war they
say, against Twitter billionaire co-founder Jack Dorsey and all Twitter
Twitter`s terms of service bans any direct specific threats of violence
against others and it regularly takes down Islamic State propaganda and
An online post that included a picture of Jack Dorsey in cross hairs. The
Islamic State supporters wrote, "your virtual war on us will cause a real
war on you, when our lions come and take your breath, you will never come
back to life."
It is unclear who wrote the post threatening Jack Dorsey and everyone who
works at Twitter. Twitter says that its security team is investigating the
veracity of these threats with relevant law enforcement officials.
Joining me now, Evan Kohlmann, "Nbc News" terrorism analyst who has spent
over a decade tracking al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations.
He`s also the Chief Innovation Officer for Flash Point Partners. Also
joining us "Cnbc" contributor Herb Greenberg. Evan Kohlmann, how seriously
do you take this threat?
EVAN KOHLMANN, TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, this is not officially ISIS, it`s
ISIS supporters. Palestinian ISIS supporters who speak Arabic and who put
this thing out in Arabic.
So the idea that there`s going to be legions of English-speaking ISIS
supporters who are going to take arms up on this, well, not unless they
read it in the newspaper, an American newspaper.
On the other hand, some of the details in this threat are chilling, because
this group is actually not saying that ISIS is going to kill Jack Dorsey or
Twitter employees, it`s calling for a lone wolf attacks in the spirit of
"Charlie Hebdo" targeting Twitter employees.
And in very mundane ways, there is talk about attacking Twitter employees
when they exit a bar or something like that. And that`s kind of scary,
because that is something that`s within the realm of someone who is an
Who is a fool, who is lording by ISIS propaganda and it`s looking to make a
name for themselves, looking for celebrity status. You just see right now,
it`s an instantaneous celebrity status.
You go after Jack Dorsey or Twitter employees and that`s I think what we`re
worried about, that someone is going to take advantage of this in order to
get publicity for themselves because they see ISIS on TV.
O`DONNELL: And Herb Greenberg, as Evan said, this doesn`t have to be
someone who makes his way from Syria or somewhere over there.
It can be someone in the United States already, it takes exactly one to
attack Jack Dorsey. What does a company like this do in a situation like
HERB GREENBERG, JOURNALIST: Well, I think, if you`re Twitter and you have
3,600 employees, you obviously have concern about those employees as any
good company would do.
But you have to continue to move on with your -- with your other business.
So in other words, you`re obviously looking at your security and you are
trying to calm people down and remind them that you could walk outside
anytime and something bad could happen unrelated to all this.
But they`ve got -- I`ve got to tell you something, Lawrence. They have
much bigger things to worry about from a business perspective --
O`DONNELL: Oh, no, they don`t.
GREENBERG: -- than this.
O`DONNELL: Oh, no, no, Herb. That`s CNBC Television. There`s nothing
more important to worry about than a death threat, absolutely nothing.
Nothing can happen in business that`s worse than being assassinated.
GREENBERG: I get it, and I know where you`re coming from. And,
obviously, none of us want to be the focus of a death threat or something
It is chilling, it is. It`s horrible. But you still have a business to
run. This isn`t the television of CNBC.
If you`re sitting there, looking at the business you`re running, you have
other things to do. You don`t stop all of a sudden and say, "Guys, let`s
stop. Let`s run for cover."
You have other things to do. You have to.
O`DONNELL: Evan, this company, as Herb just said, 3,600 employees,
different campuses around the world. They are not secure at their
perimeters necessarily the way, say, a movie studio is.
You can`t get on to the Paramount lot. If you threaten the Chairman of
Paramount, you`re going to have to get him when he leaves.
You know, you can`t just walk in the lobby of the building. These are very
vulnerable facilities. And this seems a very risky situation.
EVAN KOHLMANN, AMERICAN TERRORISM CONSULTANT: I think it`s really the
employees that I feel sorry for --
KOHLMANN: -- here because of the fact that, look, you know, you talk about
the U.S. Military and how ISIS is looking through Facebook and LinkedIn.
And they`re looking for profiles of U.S. Military or Saudi Military and
Jordanian Military. And they`re collecting this information and they`re
harvesting it, trying to come up with target list.
And I think it`s very scary. And I understand the perspective of
Twitter employees, the idea that, "I didn`t realize that it was something I
had to worry about --
KOHLMANN: -- by putting in my resume that I worked for Twitter." And I
GREENBERG: But wait a minute.
KOHLMANN: -- that`s the problem.
O`DONNELL: Go ahead, Herb. Quickly.
GREENBERG: Where do we start -- where do we start saying then, at any
company. So, basically, they know -- you know, look, this group knows how
to, sort of, strike fear into the hearts of everybody.
They could just systematically go around the United States and start
targeting, whether it`s Facebook or IBM or Google, or anyone who dares get
in their way.
And you -- I think, you reach a point where, that is real but, again,
there`s the other side of the equation and that is, there`s still, you
know, the world still goes on.
O`DONNELL: Looks like that`s the way they`re going to handle it so far.
Evan Kohlmann, quickly, before we go -- Bill Clinton`s Director for CIA,
John Deutch, was convicted of federal crimes and then pardoned by President
Clinton for misusing classified information on his home computer.
Here is Hillary Clinton, using personal e-mail for all of her State
Department e-mail communication, which must have included, at some point, -
KOHLMANN: Classified information.
O`DONNELL: -- classified information. This seems like an incredibly
dangerous area for Hillary Clinton.
KOHLMANN: I think what the problem here is just that if she was using a
service like Gmail or like Yahoo, we know that governments like China had
infiltrated these services, looking at the accounts of people who are
dissidents, who are threats to them.
We also know that they`ve been looking at accounts of people that run major
And, obviously, also American politicians. And I think, the problem is is
that we don`t know at this point what kind of encryption she might have
Trying to put encryption on private e-mail, by the way, because we do this,
it`s not easy. It`s quite a challenge. It requires technical
Who did that. Who made sure that that registered up to the standards that
we would have government e-mail. I mean, government e-mail is secured.
It`s quite secure.
I don`t think you can expect that from Gmail or Yahoo. And I think that --
look, the former Secretary of State has got to answer that question -- what
happened to that classified information.
O`DONNELL: All right, we`re going to break it right there. Evan
Greenberg, thank you very much for joining us tonight. We really
appreciate it. Thank you.
Coming up, our next guest says Saturday Night Live`s did more to hurt ISIS
than any bombing campaign.
O`DONNELL: Well, it was bound to happen. The Islamic State finally got
the SNL treatment on Saturday night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TARAN KILLAM, ACTOR: Well, this is it. You need any help with your bag?
DAKOTA JOHNSON, ACTRESS: No, that`s all right. I got it.
KILLAM: How about some walking around money.
JOHNSON: Dad, it`s OK.
KILLAM: OK. Just make sure to --
JOHNSON: Call you when I get there? I know.
KILLAM: Yes. You know, you could stay home, do another year of high
JOHNSON: Very funny, Dad.
KILLAM: Well, I`ll see you at Thanksgiving.
JOHNSON: Yes, I`ll see you.
KILLAM: You got it, kiddo. Looks like your ride`s here.
You be careful, OK.
JOHNSON: Dad, it`s just ISIS.
(LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE)
KILLAM: Take care of her.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Death to America.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE VOICE-OVER: ISIS, we`ll take it from here, dad.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Joining us now, H.A. Goodman, a columnist with "The Huffington
Post and "The Hill`s" "Congress Blog." And comedienne, Negin Farsad, who
co-produced the documentary, "The Muslims are Coming."
All right, Negin, first of all, was it funny.
NEGIN FARSAD, COMEDIENNE: I did think it was funny. I mean -- and, you
know, and SNL is an always like terribly funny. And this was actually
And I actually thought it was great because they were -- there was a
pointed satire on a specific group of ISIS, as opposed to just a blanket
satire, an entire region or an entire religion.
This was a very pointed target. And I think they really did a great job.
O`DONNELL: H.A. Goodman, your reaction to it.
H.A. GOODMAN, "THE HUFFINGTON POST" COLUMNIST: Well, I mean, my
"Huffington Post" article says it all. It was very funny.
It was funny, number one, because Mel Brooks has similar type of comedy --
"History of the World" and "To Be or not To Be." The second reason is
because, there`s a one in 20 million chance of getting killed as an
American in a terrorist attack. This was in "The Washington Post."
And the third reason, primarily is, ISIS has two marketing departments.
One is its own, where it commits atrocities and then videotapes the
atrocity to frighten millions of people. And the other is Fox News and
Bill O`Reilly and Sean Hannity, and all the people who go ahead and tell
you that you must be afraid of ISIS.
The SNL skit, they should go ahead and do that same type of ISIS skit every
single week. And I applaud them.
I think that every comedian should go ahead and have an ISIS routine
because you`re not going to get your head cut off by ISIS. You have a
better chance of getting hit by lightning. So, and that`s something that
Fox News, that`s something that the people on the right won`t tell you,
because they want to send ground troops back to Iraq. We already had two
wars. We don`t need another war, especially with a group that doesn`t have
a Navy, doesn`t have nuclear weapons.
They can`t hurt us the way people on Fox will try to tell people though
they can. So, I think it`s a great -- I think it`s a great thing.
I think more Americans should poke fun of ISIS. I think that ISIS,
ultimately, should become a punchline.
And that`ll hurt recruiting. It will make us safer, at least, because
we`re not going to be afraid of something that really can`t hurt this
It`s really our reaction to ISIS and to terror that can hurt us, not the
O`DONNELL: Now, Evan Kohlmann, clearly, the Islamic State can take a joke.
I mean, right. I mean, there`s no -- I mean, come on, what`s the --
KOHLMANN: Well, look, I mean, I --
O`DONNELL: -- what`s the reaction inside the Islamic State.
KOHLMANN: I mean that -- sure that they find this terribly amusing. Look,
I take this in a slightly different way. I think this is poking fun at our
And anyone who looks at this and condemns SNL for poking fun at this, I ask
them, the fact that we haven`t been able to develop a counter-message to a
group that thrives and open -- its open policy is murder, rape, bigotry and
racism, and we can`t come up with a counter-message for this, don`t you
think we deserve to get made fun of?
Doesn`t that -- isn`t that something that deserves to get made fun of. I
O`DONNELL: The State Department and Rick Stengel`s division is running an
entire social media thing that`s supposed to be combating --
KOHLMANN: And they`re doing a fantastic job.
O`DONNELL: But, seriously, within the Islamic State, what reaction will
they have to this.
KOHLMAN: Look, they`re going to find this to be a waste of time. They may
even find this amusing.
They think it`s funny how easy for them to recruit young people,
particularly young girls, and lure them from the United States and the U.K.
They might find this terribly amusing. And that`s the sad part because
we`re -- the thing that has drawn the most amount of attention to the fact
this group is literally luring these girls like pedophiles to Syria is an
Shouldn`t the approbation and the self-righteousness -- shouldn`t that have
come from the fact that there are pedophiles in Syria, who are luring 15-
year-old girls to go there. That seems more appropriate to me.
O`DONNELL: All right, well, Elisabeth Hasselbeck disagrees with you,
disagrees with all of you. Let`s listen to her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELISABETH HASSELBECK, FOX NEWS HOST: I don`t think there`s anything funny
BRIAN KILMEADE, FOX NEWS HOST: I don`t think it`s funny.
HASSELBECK: It`s actually hard to watch. You know, when you watch it time
and time again, you think, really, how insensitive can you get.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FARSAD: So, actually, I Elisabeth Hasselbeck is like a jewel for ISIS
right now because, there, she has the same amount of outrage, and a lot of
people on Twitter have the same amount of outrage over this SNL sketch as
they did over seeing an emulation of a human being that ISIS put up, like
we can`t have the same level of outrage on these two things, you know.
SNL was doing a parody, a comedy. And I think it`s ridiculous to create
this kind of outrage.
I feel like we all need to calm down. I feel like the outrage over this
video is just proof positive that America needs to take a nice kickboxing
class and like really let that stress go.
O`DONNELL: But, now, listen, I`m going to defend every reaction.
O`DONNELL: Meaning, -- because, look, I mean, you know, and you can look
at thing -- you and I can watch something and say, "That`s funny, that`s
funny, that`s funny."
Then I say, "That`s funny," you say, "That`s not funny." I mean, what`s
funny is a completely personal decision.
Elisabeth Hasselbeck and everybody else has a right to the, "It`s not
funny" part. And I think there`s also a right to the idea that it`s very
insensitive to do this.
I get that. I mean, it`s not the way it strikes me but I get what she`s
FARSAD: I mean, but what`s the -- I mean, I think, you know, your guest
has a really good point. We have not created an appropriate counter-
FARSAD: -- that deflates their ideology. And that`s -- and comedy is a
way to do that. You know, I think that comedies are really good routes.
We`ve tried the war thing. We`ve been variably successful at that. So, I
think it`s a good time to try something completely different. And SNL is
O`DONNELL: Let`s look at Taram Killam`s tweet about this. He said, "Proud
of this. Freedom to mock is our greatest weapon. Thanks to the writers who
asked not to be mentioned by name." So, Evan, clearly, they asked not to
be mentioned by name because they`re a little bit worried.
KOHLMANN: Look, I mean, after what happened with "Charlie Hebdo" cartoons,
KOHLMANN: -- I understand why.
KOHLMANN: And it makes perfect sense. I don`t think they`re going to be
targeted by this.
I think ISIS revels in this. And, again, anyone who feels the self-
righteousness over this or feels sensitive over this, feels sensitive over
the fact that DHF is about to be defunded, feels sensitive about the fact
that the Iraqi Army is wasting billions of our dollars and is accomplishing
That`s something that people feel sensitive about.
O`DONNELL: All right, that`s going to be the last word. Evan Kohlmann,
H.A. Goodman and Negin Farsad, thank you very much for joining me tonight.
KOHLMANN: Thank you.
O`DONNELL: Coming up, a skydiver has a seizure in mid-air.
We will show you the video of how he was saved.
O`DONNELL: And, now, for the "Good News," the amazing news. A skydiver
has a seizure in mid-air and his instructor saves him. NBC`s Katie Tour
has the story.
KATIE TUR, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Twelve thousand feet from the earth,
the only thing between Christopher Jones and the western Australian ground,
the courage to jump, as he had so many times before.
But, 22 seconds into this dive, he says he was suddenly paralyzed by a
seizure, unconscious and falling at 120 miles an hour. Instructor Sheldon
McFarland shot towards him, not wanting to rely on the automatic emergency
It took two attempts to grab Jones and pull the rip cord. Then, with 3,000
feet to go, Jones regained consciousness and managed to make a controlled
CHRISTOPHER JONES, SKYDIVER WHO HAD SEIZURE IN THE SKY: I said, "Thank you
very much," I think. Yes, that`s what I said, "Thank you for saving my
Yes, he couldn`t have done a better job. That`s just amazing.
TUR: Now, McFarland is being hailed as a hero.
SHELDON MCFARLAND, INSTRUCTOR WHO SAVED A SKYDIVER: Just doing my job,
just doing what, you know, --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE INTERVIEWER: What you train to do.
MCFARLAND: Train to do and what we train other people, you know, so --
TUR: Twenty-two-year-old, Jones, took up skydiving when his epilepsy ruled
out his dream of becoming a pilot. Seizure-free for four years, his
doctors gave him the go ahead.
JONES: I`ve always wanted to fly planes or I just want the feeling of
flying. And, obviously, with my condition, I can`t be a pilot, so, I
thought, next best thing, I can fly myself.
TUR: About 5 million people have clicked on the death-defying fall, giving
Jones 5 million reminders to keep his feet on solid ground. Katie Tur, NBC
O`DONNELL: Who was the first black player in the NBA. The answer is next.
O`DONNELL: Please endure just a couple more commercials and we`ll be right
back with the story of the second African-American man, who was drafted
into the NBA but became the first one to play in the game.
O`DONNELL: Basketball was invented in Springfield, Massachusetts in 1891.
It is our most purely American team sport, with no foreign antecedent like
baseball`s cricket or football`s futbol.
When basketball was five years old, the first professional game was played
on November 7th, 1896 in Trenton, New Jersey. Each player was paid $15 for
that game, except Fred Cooper who was paid $16.
And, in that game, Fred Cooper became basketball`s first highest paid
In the NBA player draft of 1950, the Boston Celtics was the first team to
draft an African-American player, Chuck Cooper. The Celtics picked Chuck
Cooper, a forward, in the second round of the draft.
And in the ninth round of the draft, the Washington Capitals drafted Earl
Lloyd, also a forward. Three and a half years after Jackie Robinson
integrated professional baseball by taking the field for the Brooklyn
Dodgers, Earl Lloyd became the first African-American to play in an NBA
He scored six points and led both teams in rebounds with 10. That game
earned Earl Lloyd induction into the Basketball Hall of Fame in 2003 as the
NBA`s First African-American Player.
The day after Earl Lloyd`s first game, Chuck Cooper played his first game
for the Celtics. And three days after that, Sweetwater Clifton, who had
been playing for the Harlem Globetrotters, played his first game for the
New York Knicks.
It was simply lack of the schedule that gave Earl Francis Lloyd his
historic position in basketball, something he acknowledged when inducted
into the hall of fame.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EARL FRANCIS LLOYD, FIRST BLACK AMERICAN TO PLAY IN THE NBA: I wouldn`t
miss -- there were some unusual circumstances in 1950 that forever entwine
the lives of two other people with me.
They`re no longer standing but they are right here. And I speak of Chuck
Cooper and Sweetwater Clifton. I would be remiss if I didn`t mention that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Earl Lloyd went on to play for the Syracuse Nationals and he
played for the Washington Capitals. Let`s see -- before, he was drafted
into the Army during the Korean War, then he played for the Syracuse
Earl Lloyd played his last two seasons with the Detroit Pistons. And, in
1960, became the NBA`s First African-American Assistant Coach.
`He intended to continue playing as an assistant coach but he dropped that
idea the first time he saw the NBA`s new giant. "When we played
Philadelphia in Hershey, Pennsylvania," he said, "for an exhibition game, I
saw Wilt Chamberlain for the first time. I quit right there. I said,
`Coach, the guy isn`t real. You`ve got your assistant coach.`"
The first African-American Coach in the NBA was the Boston Celtic`s legend,
Bill Russell, who became the team`s player coach in 1966.
In 1971, Earl Lloyd became the first non-playing African-American coach in
the NBA with the Detroit Pistons. Detroit`s biggest star of that era,
hall-of-famer, Dave Bing, who was later elected mayor of Detroit, said this
about Coach Lloyd --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVE BING, RETIRED HALL OF FAME BASKETBALL PLAYER: He taught a lot of us
how to play the game. But, more importantly, he taught us how to be good
citizens, how to be good ambassadors for this game of basketball.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: In 2007, Earl Lloyd told "The Washington Post", that he was
surprised that he was drafted by the Washington Capitals, because, having
grown up across the river in Washington and Alexandria, Virginia, he
considered the Washington area, quote, "a cradle of segregation."
Earl Lloyd wasn`t hit with the glare of public attention that Jackie
Robinson had to contend with. He once told the "Detroit Free Press," --
"That first game was really uneventful. And there was no publicity on it.
Remember, at the time, the NBA was this little ho-hum league. Some high
schools drew more fans to games."
In that first season as a player, Earl Lloyd`s second road game was in Fort
Wayne, Indiana, where he was not allowed to eat in the restaurant of the
hotel the team was staying.
And he remembered his coach`s reaction this way, "My coach, Bones
McKinney, a southerner, came up to my room and said he wanted to eat with
me. I said, `Bones, you`ve got nine other players downstairs. You`ve got
to take care of your team. The important thing is I know how you feel.`"
"I told Bones how much I appreciated the gesture."
Throughout my career, I never experienced one covert racist incident with a
team or opponent. Perhaps because the basketball players were college
educated, and so many had played with blacks before.
But Earl Lloyd heard racial epithets many times from the fans and ignored
them all because his parents taught him to, quote, "never dignify
ignorance." Earl Lloyd said, "My philosophy was, if they weren`t calling
you names, you weren`t doing nothing. If they`re calling you names, you
are hurting them."
On Friday, I got an e-mail from Bill Russell`s daughter, Karen Russell,
telling me that Earl Lloyd, the First Black Player in the NBA, had just
died. Her note said when her father joined the NBA in 1956 with Boston
Celtics, Earl Lloyd warned him about where he wouldn`t be able to get
served when he was on the road.
The last line of Karen Russell`s e-mail to me said, quote, "We`ve come a
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Show: THE LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE O`DONNELL