Guest: Lisa Daniels, Charles Lipcon, T.J. Ward, Benvinda De Sousa, Mark Gwyn, Edith Hyatte, Casey Jordan, Chris Cawood, Jim Washam
JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST: Tonight, of course flash news, tonight‘s massive manhunt in middle America. They fell in love when he was already behind bars. Now she has murdered a cop. And the killer couple, well, they are on the run tonight, right now. We are taking you inside the massive manhunt in Middle America to find the modern-day Bonnie and Clyde.
And then, Natalee‘s mom under attack from a key suspect in this case. We have got all the details, plus the very latest on the search for Natalee Holloway.
Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, no passport required, only common sense allowed.
ANNOUNCER: From the press room, to the courtroom, to the halls of Congress, Joe Scarborough has seen it all. Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.
SCARBOROUGH: Welcome to a packed news night in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.
Of course, we are following that breaking news story in Middle America.
Also tonight, the latest on the men last seen with George Smith. He is, of course, is the newlywed who vanished on his honeymoon cruise. It turned out to be bloody honeymoon cruise. Plus, a man who says crime on the high seas, it is nothing new. He is going to be here in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY to tell us why it is so hard for families to get justice on cruise ships when their loved ones are hurt, raped or killed.
But first, tonight, breaking news out of Tennessee. A massive manhunt is going on right now for a man who is armed and extremely dangerous and his wife, who staged a deadly shoot-out escape early this morning in Kingston, Tennessee.
Sadly, it was a scene right out of “Bonnie and Clyde.” Jennifer Hyatte, the wife of a prisoner, pulls out a handgun, fires on guards who are escorting her convicted robber husband, George, from a hearing. Tonight, one officer dead, the couple on the run, and George Hyatte‘s family understanding all too well he is a marked man.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EDITH HYATTE, MOTHER OF ESCAPEE: I‘m afraid that my son and daughter-in-law is going to be dead, that they will shoot them or whatever.
MICHAEL HYATTE, BROTHER OF ESCAPEE: Now the officers done come down here, and, more or less, told us that, if they got ahold of them up there, they was going to kill him. So, George, call me. You call me. You know my number. Give me a call. We will work this out. We can‘t work it out if you don‘t call.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCARBOROUGH: I tell you what, I understand what that family is asking their brother to do and son to do. Unfortunately, I think it is too late to work it out.
For the latest on this breaking news, let‘s go now live to NBC News correspondent Ron Mott. He is in Kingston, Tennessee, tonight.
Ron, give us the very latest on this tragic case and the manhunt still under way.
RON MOTT, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Hi, there, Joe. Good evening to you.
I mean, it is a word that we use a lot and sometimes use too often, but this story really is unbelievable. Now, Jennifer Hyatte, we understand, is a nurse or has some experience in the health care profession. And she may have to put those skills to use tonight, because, as we understand it—I spoke to the sheriff of Roane County here just a few moments ago, who told me that the second officer who was escorting her husband into the van that is behind me fired—emptied his revolver and then picked up the weapon of the downed officer and also emptied it.
Now, there was a lot of blood found in the Ford Explorer that the couple ditched about a half-a-mile from here, from the courthouse. They then ditched that vehicle in favor of a Chevy Venture van that was parked overnight. A fire official from this county lives right next door to where that van was—was—was taken. He says he saw this woman drop the van off there last night, this plan apparently hatched some time ago.
Earlier today, right before this all went down, there was a lawyer in the courtroom working another case. He said he went through a holding cell where he found the couple conferring with one another. Apparently, that is something that is allowed by the sheriff‘s—I‘m sorry, the Morgan County officials who were escorting this prisoner, that they allowed the husband and the wife to have some quiet time together in a room.
It was a secured area, but, apparently, they were talking. The lawyer said, when he walked in, they stopped talking. A few minutes later, this all went down in the parking lot behind me. They left in this blue Ford Explorer. That vehicle has been recovered. They are now looking for this gold-colored Chevy Venture van. There is a manhunt that has stretched outside of Tennessee.
There were some rumors about locations earlier in the evening. We will not pass those along to you until we can confirm those, but make no mistake about it. There is an intense manhunt on for tonight for these two people—back to you.
SCARBOROUGH: Ron, obviously, there is an Interstate 40 going through this area. A lot of law enforcement officers are afraid, if they get on that, then, obviously, this manhunt could stretch across Middle America. Have there been any sightings throughout the day? Have there been any sightings tonight, credible sightings, where police officers believe they may have a track on these people?
MOTT: Not that we know of, Joe, but what—what is—what is interesting here, the sheriff of Roane County says he is shocked that they were able to get away and have been able to elude authorities up until this hour, because he says that the—the—the—the suspect was handcuffed.
Around—there was a chain around his waist, so his wrists could only go up so far. They don‘t know how he was able to drive a vehicle. Plus, he had leg irons on, so it will be very difficult for him to drive the car if, his wife, in fact, indeed, was injured, as much as he believes that she was, so no credible sightings that we know about tonight.
And they continue to ask the public‘s help, if you see this Chevy Venture van, gold colored, to give them a call.
SCARBOROUGH: Obviously, give them a call, but don‘t approach it.
Armed and very dangerous, these people are.
NBC‘s Ron Mott, thank you so much. We greatly appreciate it.
MOTT: You bet.
SCARBOROUGH: Now let‘s go ahead and bring in Kingston, Tennessee, Police Chief Jim Washam.
Chief, what can you tell us about the manhunt that is under way right now?
JIM WASHAM, KINGSTON POLICE CHIEF: Well, we do have an extensive manhunt going on.
We are working with TBI, the Department of Corrections and the Department of Safety. We are working well. We have also got local law enforcement here from around the area, around East Tennessee, helping out.
There is a massive manhunt. We are following up on every lead that we can
· that we get in to the station. We are working hard.
We are going to be working on into the night, until we get these people apprehended.
SCARBOROUGH: Chief Washam, obviously, during the Atlanta courthouse shooting earlier this year, people were searching all across the Southeast. They found out that he remained in the Atlanta area. Are you all conducting vigorous searches around the courthouse, around the county where the shooting took place? And do you believe that these killers, these cop killers, still may be right there in your community under your noses?
WASHAM: Yes, that is a possibility, that they are still close around.
We have conducted several searches of homes around the Kingston area and around some of the other locations that we got tips on, either previous girlfriends, family members, previous addresses that he has had. We have worked with our regional SWAT team, and the Knox County SWAT team, doing these searches throughout the day.
And, of course, so far, we have not turned up anything, but that is—that is not to say we won‘t in the near future.
SCARBOROUGH: Chief, obviously, people in Kingston, people in Tennessee, people across Middle America obviously concerned tonight about these armed and extremely dangerous people, fugitives that are on the run. What can you tell us about their condition? We understand that one of the suspects may have been shot. There was a lot of blood on the scene in that Ford Explorer. Can you tell us about that?
WASHAM: Yes, we have taken that vehicle to a secure location tonight.
TBI will be conducting their investigation with that vehicle tomorrow morning. We will be going through it extensively tomorrow. They have just recently finished up with the crime scene out in the parking lot of the courthouse.
And these people are extremely dangerous. They confronted an armed or confronted two armed correction officers, did kill one. And so, you know, they had a plan that they are following through, and, you know, right now, they have followed it to their extent. And, right now, we don‘t know where they are at, but we do have several leads coming in, even as I speak, that we are following up on.
SCARBOROUGH: Any idea on how long they had planned this—this ambush of—of the law enforcement officer? And does it look like this thing had been planned out for a while?
WASHAM: Yes, this has been—this has been planned out for a while. I mean, they have had their vehicles together to switch from one to another. We do know that.
We have the one at a secure location now, with lots of blood in it. You know, they have evaded us so far. I believe we will get a tip soon to their whereabouts, and we can put this to a close. But, right now, you know, we are—like I said, we are going through an extensive hunt, manhunt with the TBI, Department of Corrections, Department of Safety.
We are really—we are working hard on every lead that comes in.
SCARBOROUGH: All right, obviously—thank you so much, Chief Washam.
We greatly appreciate you being with us tonight.
Obviously, that manhunt goes on throughout Tennessee, and, again across Middle America, these people armed and extremely dangerous. If for any reason you see them tonight or in the next few days, those are the phone numbers you need to call. You will save lives if you pick up the phone if you see these people and make the calls. But make the call. Do not approach them. Do not approach their van, extraordinarily dangerous people.
One law enforcement officer, who was armed, is dead tonight, because, unfortunately, they went—they went on a murderous shooting rampage to break this man free.
Now, just minutes ago, I spoke with Chris Cawood. He was a lawyer who was actually inside the courthouse when the bullets started flying—flying. And I asked him what he saw earlier today.
CHRIS CAWOOD, WITNESS: We were in the courtroom this morning. Mr.
Hyatte was the first case on the docket. I had the second case, but Mr. Hyatte and his attorney were negotiating a plea, so court didn‘t start until about 9:30.
Mr. Hyatte pled guilty. His wife was in the courtroom with him, sitting behind in the audience area. And once he entered his plea and left through one door, she immediately left through another door. A couple of minutes later, nobody had noticed. We could not hear any gunshots from the second floor courtroom, but I had gone to the window and saw all the commotion outside in the parking lot, and people were scattering, saying there was a shooter, and taking cover.
And the officer had fallen behind one of the vans in the parking lot.
SCARBOROUGH: What—what indication was there, or what made you notice that the wife got up and left the courthouse as soon as he entered his plea?
CAWOOD: Well, she and one other person were the only ones in the courtroom, besides those having business with the court up in front, where the attorneys are. So, they were the only ones in the audience area. So, the audience area vacated with those two leaving, as soon as he pled guilty. That is the reason I noticed.
I did notice Ms.—Ms. Hyatte and her husband talking in another room before court started. After the attorney had left the room, I walked by the room to look for someone, and she and he were in there talking, and when they saw me, they sort of startled themselves and backed off of talking.
SCARBOROUGH: Describe the scene in the parking lot after they sped off. Was there chaos out there?
CAWOOD: Well, not as much as I thought there should be at first, because we knew somebody was shot and down. But it seemed like it took a long time for the responders to get to the parking lot. I am sure it wasn‘t that long. It just seemed that long when you are watching this unfold before you, but then it was chaos, because all of the county officers came, the city, two cities or three cities, TBI, county sheriff‘s offices nearby, came and assisted in this search.
SCARBOROUGH: Obviously, a tragic death earlier today, with Officer Morgan dying. Can you tell me—tell me how the community is responding tonight?
CAWOOD: Well, I can‘t tell you too much about Roane County here, but Mr. Morgan was—lived in the border town of Oliver Springs, as I understand it. And the Brushy Mountain Prison, where he worked, is a very close-knit family of guards. And I am sure they are taking it very hard, because I don‘t remember lately anybody being killed in the line of duty at that institution. That was the same prison where James Earl Ray spent most of his time.
SCARBOROUGH: A terrible tragedy.
Chris, thank you so much for being with us tonight. We greatly appreciate it.
CAWOOD: Thank you.
SCARBOROUGH: All right.
Now we have a SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY exclusive. We are going to be bringing in the fugitive‘s mother on the telephone, Edith Hyatte.
Edith Hyatte, thank you so much for being with us.
Obviously, we ran a tape of you from earlier today talking about your concern for George, fearing that George and his wife would be caught and shot. Tell us, what are your emotions tonight? Have you heard from him?
HYATTE: No, I have not.
SCARBOROUGH: Do you have...
HYATTE: I wish I could hear from him.
SCARBOROUGH: Yes. Do you have anything you would like to say to him tonight if he is watching this show? And I am sure he is watching all of the shows that are covering this chase scene. Anything you would like to say to him right now?
HYATTE: Yes, it is.
I love—George, I love you and Jennifer both. And if you all can hear me, please, please, give yourself up, because I don‘t want anything...
SCARBOROUGH: Do you—do you have any idea where he may go tonight?
HYATTE: No, I do not.
HYATTE: I have no idea at all.
SCARBOROUGH: Yes. Talk about the family.
We heard you speaking earlier today. And, obviously, other members of your family are out there. Are you all concerned that, regardless of what happens once he is found, that he may be shot by law enforcement officers because a corrections officer was killed?
HYATTE: Yes. Yes, I am concerned about it.
And I really and truly—and God knows that I am sorry for what happened to the correction officer and his family.
SCARBOROUGH: Have you been contacted—have you been contacted by police officers today?
HYATTE: Yes, I have, all day.
SCARBOROUGH: And—oh, so, have—have they been in touch—in touch with you all day to see if he has been making contact with you?
HYATTE: Yes, they have. But he hasn‘t made contact with me any kind of way.
Are you—obviously, you asked just a minute ago for him to turn himself in. Would you like him to place a phone call to you?
HYATTE: Yes, I would.
SCARBOROUGH: Or would you rather—so, you want him to call home?
HYATTE: That is right.
SCARBOROUGH: Tell me, what were your emotions? Obviously, this is a great tragedy for all families involved. What were your emotions when you first heard the news? What were you doing, and how did you find out that your son was involved in this shoot-out?
HYATTE: The police came to my house.
SCARBOROUGH: Yes. And what was your response to them?
HYATTE: I was in shock.
SCARBOROUGH: Are you all still in shock tonight?
HYATTE: Yes, we are. That is my son and his wife.
SCARBOROUGH: Yes. Tell us, have—have you talked to his wife‘s family since this happened?
HYATTE: No, I have not.
SCARBOROUGH: Can you tell us about her?
HYATTE: Tell you about who, my daughter-in-law?
SCARBOROUGH: Yes, ma‘am, your daughter-in-law.
HYATTE: She‘s a good person. And my son has a good heart. And they are not killers. And I don‘t understand how this happened.
SCARBOROUGH: So, you are obviously shocked by what‘s gone on today, obviously, as any mother would be shocked.
Tell us about George, what kind of guy he was, what kind of young man he was growing up.
HYATTE: George was a good child coming up. Now, he has been in trouble, like everybody else‘s children. I know there is not anybody out there that has got children hasn‘t been into something.
SCARBOROUGH: But he...
HYATTE: But I am not upholding him. I am just saying that I don‘t want my child dead and his wife. I don‘t want her dead. And I know that that is what will happen to them, because they got revenge in their heart, instead of having God in their heart.
SCARBOROUGH: Who are you talking—who has revenge in their heart?
HYATTE: Everybody that I talk to seem to have.
SCARBOROUGH: All right. Well, Ms. Hyatte...
HYATTE: And, see, there‘s a God.
SCARBOROUGH: Pardon me?
HYATTE: And we all have to live the way the Bible tells us to live, if we are true Christian people.
SCARBOROUGH: All right.
Edith, are there any final words that you would—and, certainly, there are so many people out there listening to you tonight that I know agrees with you and agrees with that sentiment. Do you have any final comments that you would like to pass along to George, if he is watching this show tonight?
HYATTE: Yes, I have. I want him to turn himself in, him and his wife.
SCARBOROUGH: All right. Thank you so much, Edith Hyatte. We greatly appreciate...
HYATTE: What he done has wrong. And I know what is wrong. But, still, that is my child and my daughter-in-law. And I truly feel for the people that—the officer that got killed.
SCARBOROUGH: All right.
Edith, Edith Hyatte, thank you so much for being with us tonight, we know just an absolutely terrible time for all the families involved in this, including you. Know that our thoughts and prayers are with you and your family tonight.
SCARBOROUGH: Now let me bring in Mark Gwyn. He‘s the director of the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation, and he joins us live from Nashville.
Thank you so much for being with us.
Can you give us the very latest on this investigation and this manhunt for these two fugitives?
MARK GWYN, DIRECTOR, TENNESSEE BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION: Well, as mentioned earlier, we have an all-out statewide manhunt for Jennifer and George Hyatte. We are running leads down.
Agents all across the state, both federal and state agents, are running leads as they come in. And we hope that, within the near future, we will be able to bring George and Jennifer Hyatte back into custody.
SCARBOROUGH: Any guess where they are right now? Obviously, if you look at the Atlanta courthouse shooting earlier this year, you had a fugitive who remained very close to the courthouse. Do you believe these two people are still in Tennessee, or could they have gotten on Interstate 40 and left the state?
GWYN: Well, obviously, they could have gotten on Interstate 40 and left the state, but we have no evidence of that right now.
So, we are still acting as if they are in the state of Tennessee and running many leads inside the state right now.
SCARBOROUGH: Director Gwyn, obviously, I know you heard that exclusive interview we had with the main suspect‘s mother.
She said that her son and daughter-in-law are both marked, that her son is a marked man, and when police officers see him, they are going to shoot to kill. Can you respond to that? Would you guess, because a police officer was killed, that law enforcement officers may be tougher on him than others?
GWYN: No, I do not believe that.
We just want to make sure that no one else is hurt. There has been enough damage done. One officer is one too many, so all we want to do is bring George and Jennifer, bring them to custody. And we will let a jury decide what‘s going to happen with them.
SCARBOROUGH: All right, James Pope (sic), thank you so much for being with us tonight. We greatly appreciate it.
Now, these fugitives met when she was a prison nurse and he was a prisoner. Jennifer Hyatte was fired because of that relationship. As for her husband, he does have an extensive criminal record, with two previous escape attempts. During one of them, he slashed two prison guards with a self-made razor. These people are armed and law enforcement officers say dangerous.
Let me bring in now Clint Van Zandt, obviously, a former FBI agent.
Clint, thank you for being with us.
How in the world do you conduct a massive manhunt like this one, goes across Middle America, a rough terrain, also an interstate going through the middle of it, Interstate 40? How do you get that dragnet and tighten it, so you can bring these suspects in, hopefully safely, back to the prison?
CLINT VAN ZANDT, MSNBC ANALYST: Well, Joe, one of the things that the authorities will be looking for is any numerical identifier.
In essence, they will be looking at Jennifer, his wife‘s—they will be looking at her credit cards, her bank accounts. They will be tracking her cell phones. If, in fact, there was a premeditated aspect to this, you would find that she would have moved cash. She would have had credit cards. She would have established some type of contact. She had to have some plan where they were going to go.
The wild card in this investigation right now is, who was wounded? You know, I would think, if it had been the two of them, or perhaps a third person helping them, and they simply ran, I think they would have tried to get out of the state as fast as they could.
But now you have to introduce one of them may have been hit in the exchange of gunfire. How would that change? Might they have gone to ground? You made reference—and rightly so—to the Atlanta case a few months ago, where, you know, on various shows on MSNBC, we talked about, that guy wasn‘t going to run very far. And, as you know, he didn‘t.
In this particular case, the authorities, they are going to have a lot to go on. They are going to have relatives, numerical identifiers. And, if someone got shot, Joe, they are going to need medical care. So, those are the things the authorities are going to be looking at, but, in the same thing, you have got—you have got someone that, in all honesty, they should have known was an escape risk.
As you suggested, two previous times, he escaped. This was not a guy that you wanted to be shackled with just one or two guards. And 20/20 hindsight doesn‘t help that deceased officer right now.
SCARBOROUGH: Well, I was going to ask, I mean, the family obviously tonight of the deceased officer wondering what could have been done to save their father‘s life, their husband‘s life, their loved one‘s life. What could have been done?
VAN ZANDT: Well, you know, I don‘t want to second-guess the authorities. But I do know that, you know, we are tightening up courthouse security because of what happened in Atlanta and other places. We are trying to make sure guns don‘t come in and out, that people with weapons don‘t come in and out, even though that gun was taken within the courthouse itself.
But, in this particular case, you have got someone who is a known escape risk who was taken outside, in the wide open, where he had access to other people. The public had access to them—to him. It sounds like, in this particular case, that courthouse needs a second secure perimeter, where officers can load and unload prisoners, but where they don‘t have the ability to run, steal a vehicle, or, in a case like this, have someone come up armed and try to spirit them, carry them away.
SCARBOROUGH: Man, it really is remarkable, Clint, that you can just drive up in a Ford Explorer and start shooting at security officers and grab a prisoner out of—that is going to be in jail for decades and throw him in the truck. I—I just can‘t believe it.
Let—let me ask you this question.
VAN ZANDT: Yes.
SCARBOROUGH: Obviously, tonight, these people are somewhere. They may be in Tennessee. I think there are five, six states that surround—surround Tennessee.
VAN ZANDT: Yes.
SCARBOROUGH: They could be anywhere in Middle America right now. If somebody comes across this van, if somebody sees these people somewhere, in a truck stop or—or—or at a restaurant, what do they do?
VAN ZANDT: Yes.
Well, this is—this is a couple, they are holed up someplace right
now, Joe. If somebody is wounded, they are not on the run. They are in a
· they are in a cheap motel, hotel. They are at a friend‘s house, something like this. They may well have switched that vehicle, so we have got to find that gold-colored van that we were looking for, number one, to see what vehicle they might have switched into.
But, again, if anyone sees this, this is not the time for, you know, you or me or anyone else to become good citizens and try to make a citizen‘s arrest. As you have suggested so strongly, this is a guy who stabbed people in the past. This is a woman who had worked within the correctional institution, who was a nurse, who picked up a gun and used it, against everything that she stood for educationally, everything that she stood for as a nurse, working within that environment.
She turned around and used it against the system. She shot an officer in cold blood. So, we have got two people who are on the run, both of which are capable of injuring and killing someone else. And, Joe, you have got two people with this crazy fantasy that they are going to escape, go someplace in the Smoky Mountains and put their feet up and live the rest of their life together. It is not going to happen like that.
SCARBOROUGH: It ain‘t going to happen.
VAN ZANDT: So, anyone who sees them has got to help bring them in by calling 911.
SCARBOROUGH: You are exactly right, Clint. It ain‘t going to happen. It never does. That is why I don‘t understand why they try things like this, because they always get caught.
VAN ZANDT: Yes.
SCARBOROUGH: Clint Van Zandt, greatly appreciate you being with us tonight, as always.
VAN ZANDT: Thanks, Joe.
SCARBOROUGH: Now, friends, we are going to be monitoring this case, and we are going to be bringing you the very latest throughout the hour. Any breaking news, if they are caught, if any law enforcement officers have press conferences over the next 30 minutes, you will know about it first right here in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY on MSNBC.
Plus, you saw this exclusive videotape last night, Beth Holloway Twitty confronting a key suspect in that case with her missing daughter. Tonight, why what happened on this tape could actually get Natalee‘s mother in trouble with the law.
And, later, the latest developments in the missing honeymooner case, new details on two men who were among the last to see George Smith IV alive.
SCARBOROUGH: She has gone from being seen as an all-American beauty, to a murder suspect, to a tragic victim herself. Forget the resumes and lies. We are going to take you to the hometown of the honeymoon cruise bride, Jennifer Hagel, and tell you the true story.
But, first, here‘s the latest news you and your family need to know.
SCARBOROUGH: Pictures of George Smith and Jennifer Hagel from high school, years before they fell in love and married, a marriage that now appears to have ended tragically on their honeymoon cruise. Tonight, new details about the men at the center of that investigation.
Welcome back to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY—that story in just minutes, but, first, Aruba and the latest developments in the case of missing Alabama teenager Natalee Holloway. This is where things stand tonight. Joran Van Der Sloot remains the only suspect in custody and was questioned for an eight day today by Dutch investigators.
Obviously, they are getting tougher by the day, but still no information coming forward. There is also a hearing scheduled for tomorrow morning, where a judge is going to rule on the level of FBI involvement that he will permit in the investigation. And September 4 is the date that a court is going to decide whether to charge Joran or set him free. Obviously, that is in less than a month.
Meanwhile, fallout from the video that we showed you here last night on SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY. Deepak Kalpoe is actually filing a complaint against Natalee‘s mom, trying to prevent another confrontation like the one we showed you, one which Beth Twitty says she plans to repeat.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: Joe, I‘ve got a lot more days on this island, so I‘m not going anywhere. I‘ve got plenty of time. I‘ve got lots more pictures to be developed at the Internet cafe.
HOLLOWAY TWITTY: So, just going to slowly.
SCARBOROUGH: Yes. So, you—you plan on going back there?
HOLLOWAY TWITTY: Well, absolutely. I‘ve got more pictures to be developed. Yes. I‘ll...
HOLLOWAY TWITTY: It‘s a great place to go. Also, I‘ve got to go back because I was so saddened that Natalee‘s poster had been taken down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCARBOROUGH: Benvinda De Sousa is the attorney for the Holloways and she joins us now from Aruba.
Thank you so much for being with us again, Benvinda. Greatly appreciate it.
BENVINDA DE SOUSA, HOLLOWAY FAMILY ATTORNEY: Thank you, Joe.
SCARBOROUGH: Get us up—get us up to date with this complaint that has been filed against your client, Beth Holloway Twitty.
DE SOUSA: Yes.
Deepak Kalpoe filed a complaint today with the Aruban police, based on harassment. He obviously felt harassed by her visit to him, and he felt not at ease by her questions. And he wants to prevent her from visiting him again.
Well, I can tell you one thing, that anybody who thinks that he has been harassed or is not as ease by anybody‘s questions—we live in a free country—it is a democratic country—can file the complaint, but the complaint has to be based on truth. It is my understanding that Beth went to visit. She developed some pictures. Deepak was there. And she just asked him some questions, and that is a far cry from harassment.
So, I am not worried about that at all.
SCARBOROUGH: What is the standard in Aruba? You talk about living in a free country. Obviously, Beth is free to go develop pictures in an Internet cafe, if she wants. And at one point does it become harassment? At what point does it become stalking? Obviously, this is in a public setting. So, is the standard, if she goes in and she is peaceful and she doesn‘t threaten him, she can keep going back as much as she wants?
DE SOUSA: Well, basically, she can.
I mean, she is free to talk to anybody she wants, and if the person she is talking to doesn‘t want to talk to her and feels harassed or threatened in any way, is free to file a complaint. But, then again, like I told you before, it is a far cry from that. It is a public place. It is an Internet cafe, where everybody can go and sit behind a computer and surf the Web or chat or do whatever they want.
It‘s—I think that the only way that she could be prevented from going in there is if the owner of the place requests her not to go there, because it is his prerogative, but it hasn‘t been done yet.
SCARBOROUGH: What has her response been to this harassment charge being filed against her by Deepak, again, a guy who many people believe may have had something to do with Natalee‘s disappearance and possible murder?
DE SOUSA: I agree.
Why should we believe what he stated in his complaint? I mean, he has lied before. He was one of the last three persons to be seen with Natalee. And he has no credibility whatsoever, so why would he have credibility in his complaint? I think the mother is much more to believe. And if—I would say completely to believe, and she is honest in trying to find answers as to where her daughter is at.
And I understand perfectly that a mother would want to talk to one of the last persons to have been seen with her daughter, for all we know, alive.
SCARBOROUGH: All right, Benvinda De Sousa, great to have you with us tonight. We really appreciate your insights.
Now let‘s turn to private investigator T.J. Ward. He has uncovered some interesting information about Joran‘s dad, Paul Van Der Sloot.
Thank you so much for being back with us, Mr. Ward.
What have you found out about Van Der Sloot, Paulus and Joran, the night that Natalee disappeared?
T.J. WARD, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Well, we know that both of them are definitely involved in this situation.
And it is sad that, in this situation at the Internet cafe, that Deepak is hiding behind his lawyer and trying to bring something against Beth now. You know, we all know that we have the right people under the microscope, and it is—it is our position that the police should have already picked him up and should have arrested both of them already, the two brothers.
We have gathered some information right now, and we are trying to verify it, that both of the—the Kalpoe brothers have been removed from their own country for similar—similar transactions as to what‘s going on here. And we are trying to verify this information to be true.
SCARBOROUGH: You are saying you have got information that the Kalpoe brothers may have been kicked out of their own country for similar actions?
WARD: Yes. We have gotten information that they may have been taken out of their own country, or asked to leave, and that is why they are living with their grandparents in Aruba. And we are trying to verify this information now and follow up on it.
SCARBOROUGH: What information do you have about Paul and Joran gambling the night that Natalee disappeared?
WARD: Well, we understand that they have an open credit line at the casinos and also have an open line with ordering alcohol, and so on so forth, at Carlos ‘n Charlie‘s.
And just surprising, him being 17 years old when this transpired, that he is in casinos gambling, and apparently his father must be funding in behind him, what‘s going on. Again, we have got four people here, the father, Joran, and the two Kalpoe brothers, are all involved in this. We are definitely sure that is the case, from the information that we—we are gathering at this time.
SCARBOROUGH: All right. It is fascinating. T.J. Ward, as always, we greatly appreciate you being with us.
WARD: Thank you.
SCARBOROUGH: And more shocking information. You follow up on that investigation, and when you get information, come back and let us know about the Kalpoe brothers especially, possibly, possibly—that is what he is investigating tonight—being kicked off their own island for similar actions.
Coming up next, the honeymoon cruise mystery, it continues. We, as always, have the very latest. This time, we have got the latest on the men who appear to be at the center of that investigation. Plus, we go to the hometown of the silent victim in this case. Who is Jennifer Hagel?
Find out next, only in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.
SCARBOROUGH: The investigation into the disappearance of missing honeymooner George Smith IV is heating up again, but will the FBI solve the case? In a minute, we go inside the investigation with somebody who has been working cases like this for 30 years.
But, first, we told you that the investigations is focused on three persons of interest. One is a teenager from California. His attorney tells SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY his client cooperating with authorities. And we tracked down the two Russian persons of interest and invited them on the show. Their attorney declined, saying—quote—“My clients have been fully cooperative with the investigators ever since the beginning. They gave statements to the authorities already, and those statements won‘t change. They remain cooperative with the FBI and all of the investigations. The advice right now is not to go on the air or to make any more statements until the investigation is completed.”
Of course, we at SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, who have broken so much in this case, still invite any of the suspects or principals on.
With me now is somebody who has spent 30 years on cases like this one, Miami attorney Charles Lipcon.
Charles, thank you so much for being with us.
We hear—I mean, obviously, you have got a possible murder on this cruise. You have got a couple of other situations, a possible rape that was videotaped. This cruise sounded like it was out of control. Are sex assaults, rapes, violent crimes, the exceptions or the rules on these cruise lines?
CHARLES LIPCON, MARITIME ATTORNEY: Well, I think they are far more common than most people realize.
In handling these type of cases, I have come across statistics. With Royal Caribbean, they—one statistic is that, out of 173 sexual assaults in about a three-and-a-half year period, the cruise lines had a perfect record. That perfect record was, nobody was prosecuted.
SCARBOROUGH: Wait. Wait. Wait a second. You—wait. Wait a second. You are saying, out of 173 possible sexual assaults, that is your number, not ours, but you are saying, out of 173, not one person has been prosecuted?
LIPCON: Exactly. And, normally, law enforcement...
LIPCON: Why? Because the—I have my own opinions on that. I believe the cruise lines, you know, this is bad publicity for them. They go out of their way to make sure that prosecutions cannot occur.
And then you couple that with the fact that you are dealing with concurrent jurisdictions between Third World countries, flag of convenient states, FBI, who gives it a low priority, and what you have is, you have open season on the high seas. The crew members know they can...
SCARBOROUGH: No, I was just going to say, that really is—that‘s shocking. Again, you say open season on the high seas. Again, I am looking at this number that you are telling us. I am going to invite the cruise line on. They need to come on and dispute that fact, if they can.
, let me ask you this. Based on your 30 years‘ experience investigating cruise lines, what do you think happened to George Smith IV on the night he vanished?
LIPCON: I handled almost the identical case involving a Royal Caribbean cruise line vessel. Husband and wife are in the casino. The wife is given a roofie. She appears to everybody to be drunk. The husband takes her back to the room. She is gang-raped. They later find her walking the hallways without her undergarments on, not knowing what had happened.
And the husband was in the casino continuing to gamble. So, based on that and the other cases I have handled, my—right now, based on what I know, I think the two of them were drugged, so they appeared totally intoxicated. They are taken back to the room. The wife is being taken advantage of. The husband is a big guy. So, maybe he came out of it. You know, there wasn‘t enough drugs. He came to. Or maybe he was drinking, and it was not enough to keep him unconscious, and he became a witness.
So, they just killed him and tossed him over the side. And I think that—that fits all of the facts that I am aware of at this time, and it certainly fits in with what I have seen in all of these years that I have been handling these cases.
SCARBOROUGH: Now, you say what you saw in actually a case that you said is almost identical to this case.
Let‘s now turn to criminologist Casey Jordan.
Casey, obviously, we have got a bloody scene. We have got two Russians under investigation, one California teen. How do you crack this case and solve it?
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: It is getting more and more difficult as the days go by. We are over a month past the incident. A lot of that forensic evidence, including that blood stain, has been cleaned up.
We know, of course, the ship is occupied. That very cabin is occupied by new passengers at this point. When you have so little forensic evidence, you really do look to human behavior. So, we are looking very carefully at the fact that Jennifer is not talking, which would be supported by the theory that perhaps she was drugged and something terrible happened. And we are also looking at the behavior of the three suspects and the fact that two of them won‘t speak at all.
You know, there are no absolutes with human behavior, but that makes the average viewer very concerned about what they might be hiding.
SCARBOROUGH: Casey, the teenager from California who is talking, is he the key?
JORDAN: He may be the key, especially since he is cooperating. The fact that he is a teenager is a little problematic, in that you are not going to be able to question him without his parents or guardian present.
The two Russian men who are of—who are on your little suspect roster are extremely interesting, because their lawyer says that their story is not going to change. Well, if they never talk, of course, their story can‘t change. So, there seem to be some statements which might be of interest. And, again, if they just stay underground and behind their lawyer, they can‘t get into any trouble.
SCARBOROUGH: Well, remarkable information.
Thank you for being with us, Charles and Casey Jordan. Greatly appreciate it. Apologize it was so short, obviously, breaking news. We look forward to having you on tomorrow night, as this case continues to unfold on SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.
Coming up next, the other victim in this case, Jennifer Hagel, that is right, Jennifer Hagel.
SCARBOROUGH: Who is Jennifer Hagel, the young bride whose groom went missing on their honeymoon cruise?
Well, MSNBC‘s Lisa Daniels went to her hometown to find out all about this all-American girl.
LISA DANIELS, NBC CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): She was the teenager with the golden future, a model student, a star athlete, a young woman blessed with movie-star good looks. And those who knew Jennifer Hagel say her future was as bright as her ever-present smile.
DEAN MAURO, HIGH SCHOOL BASKETBALL COACH OF JENNIFER HAGEL: That‘s her right there.
DANIELS (on camera): That‘s her again?
DANIELS (voice-over): It‘s the smile that Jennifer‘s high school basketball coach, Dean Mauro, remembers most.
MAURO: She was just a happy person. She loved life, a very positive person. She was someone that, you know, everybody just enjoyed being with.
DANIELS: That charisma made Jennifer easily the most popular girl at Cromwell High, according to her friends. But unlike the stereotypical snob, Jennifer was of a different breed.
MAURO: She liked everyone. She tried to include everyone, you know, whether they were the lonely freshman on the team to the popular senior. She made everybody feel—feel good about themselves.
DANIELS: Including her parents. Their message in her high school year book, “Jen, we are all very proud of you and know you will always make people smile,” words from a prominent family, whose name is plastered all over Cromwell, Connecticut. Even to an outsider, the family‘s presence is hard to miss.
Jen‘s mother is arguably the leading realtor in town. Her father, a former police officer, now heads the family‘s construction company. And so, nobody was surprised when the girl with everything married the boy with everything, George Smith, a handsome young man from ritzy Greenwich, Connecticut. But the couple‘s union would be short-lived.
MAURO: My initial reaction was shock. You know, when I saw the name Jennifer Hagel on the screen, I was thinking, no, that can‘t be the same Jen Hagel. And I just thought of it being a tragic accident. In no way do I think, you know, Jen would have anything to do with this.
DANIELS: Neither do people in this wealthy community, but most of them refused to speak on camera. That‘s not the way things are done here. Protocol is everything.
(on camera): Just like the Smiths in Greenwich, the Hagels are well known here in Cromwell, and many say they will not speak out until the family does.
(voice-over): Until then, residents say, they won‘t violate the family‘s silence, except to point out the obvious.
NICOLE MEGOS, RESIDENT OF CROMWELL: I wish them the best. They are a wonderful family. And I hope they can work through this mess.
MATT RANDAZZO, NEIGHBOR: I just know them as friendly, we wave to each other as we pass by in the morning, and that they are just—just good people.
DANIELS: But even those from the best of families experience misfortune. And the importance of overcoming challenges was something that Jennifer seemed to understand. Her high school yearbook reads, “To be the best of the best means you make mistakes and then go on.”
But going on may be more difficult to do than this talented woman has ever imagined.
DANIELS: Joe, some of Jennifer‘s friends spoke to us off camera, but they won‘t go in front of the camera until Jennifer‘s family speaks out, and some of them even told us that they don‘t see the need at all. After all, Cromwell knows Jennifer‘s good reputation already, and they don‘t feel the need to share it with the world.
So, Joe that is the very latest from here.
SCARBOROUGH: Thanks a lot, Lisa Daniels. Greatly appreciate that report. She sounds like a great person from a great family and a great community.
We‘ll be right back in a minute.
SCARBOROUGH: Well, friends, that is all the time we have for tonight.
But, stick around, because “THE SITUATION WITH TUCKER CARLSON” starts right now—Tucker.
TUCKER CARLSON, HOST, “THE SITUATION”: Thank you, Joe.
SCARBOROUGH: What‘s the situation tonight?
CARLSON: I appreciate it.
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