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'The Situation with Tucker Carlson' for August 9

Read the transcript to the Tuesday show

Guest: Max Kellerman, Pat Brown, Steven Zulkowski

TUCKER CARLSON, HOST:  It‘s 11:00 tonight in a level across North Carolina.  It‘s 8:00 p.m. in Dinsby, Arizona.  It‘s 7:30 a.m. in Tehran, and this is the latest live national news available anywhere in this country. 

Coming up, a bank robbery of $65 million in our nightly “Crime Blotter” and your voice mail. 

But first, some breaking news tonight out of Michigan.  Take you to pictures of a chemical recycling plant outside Detroit, near Detroit metro airport.  That‘s in Romulus, on fire. 

Police reporting that one person has been taken to the hospital.  There are no known severe casualties, however.  Apparently, the plant was evacuated before the fire began.  Eyewitnesses said everyone got out. 

A silo filled with chemicals heated up and exploded.  The area of one-mile radius around this has been evacuated.  We‘ll continue to follow the story and bring you updates as news warrants, but first, here‘s the rest of what happened today. 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  We came out of the courtroom.  They were loading him up in the van.  The Ford pulled up, swung the door open, started firing.


CARLSON:  That was the description of an eyewitness to the deadly escape of George Hyatte from custody outside the courthouse in Kingston, Tennessee, this afternoon.   Hyatte‘s wife, Jennifer, a former prison nurse who met him in jail, was accused of killing a corrections officer in cold blood in order to break Hyatte from a 35-year term for robbery and assault. 

They‘re on the loose, armed and dangerous.  They‘re also a reminder, before they were glamorized in the movies, Bonnie and Clyde were ruthless killers.  We‘ll, of course, keep you informed of that story throughout the hour. 

Who did the people of California think they were electing governor?  According to “Business Week magazine, they elected a man with a 20 percent stake in “Terminator III: The Redemption.”  That‘s a new video game spin-off from the movie series that promises, quote, “deep levels of nonstop arcade shooter action.” 

Critics call the business arrangement a conflict of interest, because Governor Schwarzenegger may soon have to weigh in on State Assembly Bill 450.  That would restrict the sale of violent video games to people 17 and older. 

I point out, what did you expect?  You elected Arnold Schwarzenegger. 




CARLSON:  Katharine Hiscox, a British woman, was arrested this weekend for swimming across the St. Johns River from Canada to the U.S. without proper paperwork or permission.  She now faces up to two years in jail and a fine of nearly 300 grand. 

But now there‘s an easier way to become an American.  Join the service.  According to this morning‘s “New York Times,” over the past three years alone, more than 20,000 immigrants have become citizens by severing in the U.S. military.  And yet there are still 27,000 current military personnel not yet U.S. citizens. 

A day after the death of Peter Jennings, from lung cancer, Dana Reeve, widow of actor Christopher, announced that she, too, has lung cancer.  Only possible good could come from two famous people‘s horror would be the recognition that lung cancer research is shamefully underfunded.

Though it claimed 12 times as many lives as AIDS last year, lung cancer research received less than 10 percent money per life lost.  The difference, of course, is that lung cancer victims are often blamed for their own disease. 


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Supreme Court nominee John Roberts filed court briefs supporting violent fringe groups. 

CARLSON:  A new ad by the legalized abortion lobby group NARAL, accuses Supreme Court nominee John Roberts of filing court briefs on behalf of the convicted clinic bomber and what it called violent fringe groups.

According to the ad, Roberts is a radical, willing to, quote, “excuse violence against other Americans.”  Never mind that Roberts has never once defended clinic bombing, or even spoken out against abortion.  In fact, Roberts once drafted a White House memo attacking violence against abortion clinics.  It doesn‘t matter, though, the ad‘s still up. 

Life these days is definitely greener on the other side for runaway bride Jennifer Wilbanks.  Her lawn mower, orange cap and vest were presented to her by the taxpayers of Lawrenceville, Georgia, as their way of saying thanks for leading them on a wild goose chase last April by pretending she had been kidnapped. 

Wilbanks must perform 120 hours of community service.  That includes scrubbing public toilets, and, of course, keeping an eye on the crab grass. 

Well, she looked pretty good in the hat. 

To discuss my favorite topics of the night, we welcome our unbiased shrinking violet, Rachel Maddow.  Rachel, welcome. 


CARLSON:  I know. 

MADDOW:  I am biased. 

CARLSON:  It was meant with deep irony, deep irony, but also deep affection. 

MADDOW:  I do not shrink. 

CARLSON:  It seems to me—I‘ve been a pretty aggressive critic of our immigration policies, to the extent we even have immigration policies, but the idea that you fast-track the immigration applications, people who are fighting for your country... 

MADDOW:  Yes. 

CARLSON:  Strikes me as unassailably a good idea. 

MADDOW:  At the same time, anybody who wants to fight for this country, especially without the benefits of citizenship, you have to welcome them.  You want the best for them.

But I think there‘s something weird about the fact we have got a lot of noncitizens fighting for the U.S., and because they can‘t get security clearances, they end up disproportionately in front-line, infantry-type positions in the military.  A lot of them getting injured, getting killed.  When people die in that situation, they get posthumous citizenship. 

I think it rubs me the wrong way, that we are at that point once people die, giving them citizenship. 

CARLSON:  Yes.  I actually tend to agree with you.  But I do think it says something really positive, not to be too corny, but positive about American people willing to fight for a country they‘re not even a citizen of. 

MADDOW:  But at the same time, it also shows what‘s going on with our military recruiting, which is absolutely in shambles right now.  I mean, we‘ve got non-citizens that we‘re fast tracking to citizenship to get them to fight for us.  We‘ve got bonuses ranging from $5,000 to $40,000 in some cases to get people to sign up.  The Americans are not falling all over themselves to join up for this war effort.  Something wrong about the way we‘re using military. 

CARLSON:  It‘s an unpopular war, and a strong economy.  I can see why.

MADDOW:  Well, you know what, strong economy, but also I think that, you know what, we need to think about how we use our military if Americans aren‘t willing to join it for the causes that it‘s being applied to. 

MILES:  You know what else we need to think about?  Funding for research into diseases. 


CARLSON:  Lung cancer, far and away, the No. 1 cancer killer in this country.  You get lung cancer, it‘s diagnosed after you‘re symptomatic, you‘ve got a 15 percent chance of living five years.

You‘re diagnosed with prostate cancer early, you‘ve got a 99 percent chance of survival.  You‘re diagnosed with breast cancer early, you‘ve got an 88 percent chance of survival.

And yet breast cancer, prostate cancer, and for that matter, AIDS, which kills far fewer people than lung cancer, all get far larger amounts of money for research than lung cancer.  And I think that‘s wrong. 

MADDOW:  Well, I think that the debates about how you fund various diseases—and I worked on AIDS issues for a very long time and know that this came up constantly, why is AIDS getting all this funding?  Why is this getting funding versus this getting funding?

I don‘t think that, necessarily, diseases have to compete against each other for funding.  I think there ought to be a lot of funding for basic research in this country. 

CARLSON:  But the fact that you worked on those issues...


CARLSON:  ... tells you everything you need to know.   I don‘t think it‘s a bad thing you worked on it; however, tells you funding for these diseases is open to political pressure. 

MADDOW:  Sure. 

CARLSON:  And it‘s a political process, and there‘s something wrong with that.  It ought to be allocated rationally.  The reason lung cancer search doesn‘t get the money it should, it‘s because there‘s this great stigma attached to lung cancer.  We blame people who get it.  The news stories, the wire stories, Dana Reeve, nonsmoker, diagnosed with lung cancer.

MADDOW:  That‘s right.

CARLSON:  You didn‘t see Liberace, sodomite, diagnosed with AIDS.  No, really.  I‘m serious.

MADDOW:  I am sure you did some places. 

CARLSON:  I‘m sure you did, but the mainstream press, thank God, didn‘t write that.  But we don‘t blame people who get AIDS for getting AIDS. 

MADDOW:  We don‘t any more.  We did for a long time. 

CARLSON:  But we don‘t now.  But we do blame people with lung cancer for getting it, and that‘s unfair, I think.

MADDOW:  Tucker, I think that diseases always have a social component and always, therefore, have a political component.  The reason I worked on AIDS for so long is because it was completely ignored for the first 10 years that it was killing people in this country.  And it was ignored because the people who were getting it were drug users and gay people. 

CARLSON:  Ignored?

MADDOW:  Ignored.  AIDS was ignored...

CARLSON:  AIDS was on the cover of “People” magazine, 1982.  I remember it really well.  I was at camp.  I read it.

MADDOW:  We‘ve talked about this before, about the fact that I have a real bone to pick with the Reagan legacy, that he didn‘t say the word “AIDS” until seven years into the epidemic. 

You can‘t say that AIDS was a disease that was tackled head on by this country in the way that it would have been had it been attacking white Christian people in the Midwest who are the people who were... 


CARLSON:  Really?  Where I lived, in Southern California, AIDS was the disease, you know, that everyone talked about.  I mean, you know, far more than lung cancer. 

MADDOW:  Well, that‘s because it was politicized by people like me and people like the gay community.  When you work on issues like that, when you acknowledge the social stigma and all the politics that goes into it, that‘s how stuff gets attention. 

CARLSON:  Well, maybe—maybe Dana Reeve will bring the attention lung cancer needs to get the money it deserves. 


CARLSON:  Well, now on to the NARAL ad blasting Supreme Court nominee John Roberts, which is actually, even by the standards of political ads, which are almost by definition outrageous, is pretty outrageous, because it‘s exactly the opposite of the truth.  It is war is peace, up is down.

1986, Roberts, then working for the Reagan administration in the White House, wrote, and I‘m quoting now, “The president unequivocally condemns such acts of violence.”  Clinic bombings is what he‘s talking about.  “No matter how lofty or sincerely held the goal, those who resort to violence to achieve it are criminals.” 

In other words, he‘s saying exactly the opposite of what the NARAL ad is suggesting he said.  He is condemning clinic violence.  They‘re saying he supported it.

MADDOW:  That‘s five years before he filed the brief on behalf of Michael Bray, Operation Rescue.  And they‘re saying, “Listen, he was solicitor general.  The solicitor general‘s office didn‘t have to get involved in this case.  They chose to.  He appeared before the Supreme Court...

CARLSON:  He worked in the office of the solicitor general. 

MADDOW:  And he appeared personally before the Supreme Court twice...

CARLSON:  Right.

MADDOW:  ... on this case, on behalf of Michael Bray, and Operation Rescue.  Michael Bray, convicted of 10 clinic bombings. 

CARLSON:  Right.

MADDOW:  Operation Rescue and the other anti-abortion groups at that point, the four years before this case, there had been 48 bombings and arsons of abortion clinics. 

CARLSON:  Right.

MADDOW:  There had been 57 separate acid attacks.


MADDOW:  And he filed a brief and appeared on behalf of that side of the debate. 

CARLSON:  But wait a second.  He was arguing—the administration was arguing on behalf of the right of people, not to bomb clinics but to peacefully protest in public.  Right?

So the ACLU defends the Nazis‘ right to march in Skokie.  It doesn‘t mean the ACLU is pro-Nazi.  They‘re not.  It would be unfair to say they are.  Just as it‘s unfair to say John Roberts is pro-clinic bombing.  Because he‘s not.

MADDOW:  Well, he wasn‘t.  You don‘t have to be—and NARAL made very clear, the president of the (INAUDIBLE) said, “We are not accusing him of being in favor of violence.”

CARLSON:  Right.  After the ad comes out, accusing him of being in favor of violence against fellow Americans. 

MADDOW:  The ad—the ad comes out and says, “Listen, he filed a brief on behalf of Operation Rescue,” when this is what Operation Rescue was doing.  He has to answer to that. 

He was saying, yes, you need to be able to assemble, but the opposite side of the argument, said that, listen, Operation Rescue and the other anti-abortion people are conspiring to deprive women of the ability to get an abortion.  It was not a “you can assemble” versus “you can‘t assemble,” and he came down on the side of free assembly. 

CARLSON:  Fair argument.  I think it makes sense.  But look, here‘s the bottom line.  Fifteen years from now, when John Roberts is on the Supreme Court leading the liberal wing, I hope you‘ll come back and eat crow. 

MADDOW:  Do you think he‘s going to be a Souter?

CARLSON:  I do think that. 

MADDOW:  Really?

CARLSON:  I hope I‘m wrong, but that‘s what I think. 

MADDOW:  Well, I do not believe that you‘re right, but I sure hope you are. 

CARLSON:  Rachel Maddow, I hope I‘m wrong.

MADDOW:  Thanks, Tucker.

CARLSON:  Still to come, “The Outsider,” Max Kellerman, joins me to debate three of the oddest stories of the day. 

Max, are you prepared?

MAX KELLERMAN, ESPN:  Never, Tucker. 

CARLSON:  OK.  I‘ll take that at face value. 

Plus, we‘ll bring you up to the minute on the search for Natalee Holloway in Aruba.  Does the prime suspect, Joran Van Der Sloot, fit the profile of a murderer?  We‘ll ask profiler Pat Brown when THE SITUATION returns.


CARLSON:  Still ahead, more on the Bonnie and Clyde manhunt in Tennessee.  How did a former prison nurse wind up on the lam with a prisoner?  That‘s next.


CARLSON:  Welcome back. 

As someone who spent years writing about crime, I just could not resist adding this block to the show, called “SITUATION Crime Blotter.”  Every night, the most compelling stories involving wrongdoers and the peacekeepers who catch them. 

We start with an absolute shocker from Brazil, where thieves made off with $65 million after tunneling their way into a bank in the city of Fortaleza.  Police say that about 20 robbers operating from a nearby house, they created a fake gardening company that allowed them to get rid of the dirt they dug up without raising suspicion. 

The tunnel they crawled through, amazingly without setting off alarms, 12 feet under ground, 250 feet long. 

Meanwhile, back in the States, two bizarre crimes that involve biting.  Thirty-two-year-old Robert Murray, who was HIV-positive, accepted a plea deal under which he admitted guilt in five counts of second-degree attempted murder, in exchange for a 13-year prison sentence.  Sound long?  Wait until you hear what he did. 

Murray was ordered to wear a shoulder length spit mask, ankle shackles, handcuffs, a la Hannibal Lecter, while in court.  Told police he tried to kill four police detectives by spitting blood and saliva in their faces.  He later stuck his fangs into a psychiatric orderly, ripping out a hunk of flesh. 

Meanwhile, further south, a Virginia man has been charged with a felony for alleged biting off a portion of a police officer‘s finger during a scuffle.  It was his ring finger, incidentally. 

And things are quiet tonight at California‘s most famous prison, San Quentin, after a riot erupted Monday between white and Latino prisoners in medium security unit of the famous slammer.  Forty-two inmates injured in the largest incident of unrest in 23 years at the Q, which famously houses among others, convicted killer Scott Peterson. 

And now to tonight‘s top big crime news.  We continue to track the story of George and Jennifer Hyatte, two armed and very dangerous fugitives in Tennessee, who carried out Mr. Hyatte‘s deadly escape from custody this afternoon. 

Joining me now from Washington to analyze the escape and manhunt, as well as the latest from Aruba, renowned criminal profiler, Pat Brown. 

Pat, thanks a lot for joining us. 

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER:  Good evening, Tucker. 

CARLSON:  Let me ask the obvious question.  Jennifer Hyatte married this guy.  She was a prison nurse; he was a prisoner.  He‘s got to be the least eligible bachelor in America.  This is not the first time I‘ve heard this story, though.  Inmates get married.  Why do women marry them?

BROWN:  Well, one of the real reasons is—things is why do we let women marry inmates?  Why does our justice system allow inmates to have any contact with people outside who can do this kind of thing?

CARLSON:  That‘s a great question.  What‘s the answer?

BROWN:  I don‘t know.  I think it‘s just one of our rights things that we allow.  And I think it‘s ridiculous.  I think when you‘ve committed a crime against society, you ought to be put away and not have contact with them, except maybe your mom and a priest. 

But they allow this anyway.  And so lots of women really like prisoners.  Usually, they like the prisoners who can‘t get out of jail, you know, the ones who write and say they love moonlight and walks on the beach and they like to write poetry, as if they‘re going to do that in the next 300 years.  But the women like to hear that, and they get to write, and they don‘t really have to have a relationship. 

But in this case, she has found someone to have a relationship with, and... 

CARLSON:  Yeah, it‘s not a safe relationship either. 

BROWN:  Exactly.

CARLSON:  I mean, this seems almost like a suicide plot on her part. 

Do you think they think they‘re going to get away?

BROWN:  I think they probably hyped this up in their mind that they could accomplish this, watched a few movies, think you can do it.  And of course, now they‘re in big trouble.  They‘ve turned into Bonnie and Clyde.  They‘re on the run.  And that‘s what makes them extremely dangerous, because both of them know now if they‘re caught, they‘re going to jail forever. 

So they are going to be—it‘s like an Andrew Cunanan situation.  They‘re on the run.  And what more can they do that‘s going to get them in more trouble?  Nothing.  So it is very dangerous.  They may do carjackings.  They may kidnap people, keep them as hostages, kill people.  It really doesn‘t make any difference. 

So law enforcement really has to find these people quick before they do a lot more harm to society. 

CARLSON:  So in a situation like this, is there typically an end game?  Do they have a plan?  Or are they just feeling their way along moment to moment?

BROWN:  Well, how bright are these people?  Obviously, they didn‘t have a very good game when they were in prison, so their concept of an end game is probably so screwed up that, in their own minds, they created something.  And it never goes as you planned it. 

There‘s wonderful movie, called “A Simple Plan.”  And it never is simple.  It always wrong, and then you have to run around trying to fix it and trying to stay ahead of the game.  And you never do, and eventually it ends up badly. 

It will end up badly for them, but unfortunately, it may end up badly for a lot of other people, as well. 

CARLSON:  I think we can safely predict the first part anyway. 

Well, to Aruba.  Joran Van Der Sloot will be released in early September if charges are not filed against him.  Does he, in your mind, fit the profile of a murderer, someone who would kill Natalee Holloway?

BROWN:  Oh, yes, he does, unfortunately.  He has the profile of being someone who believes he has the right to do things as he wants.  This has been kind of shown in his life before that. 

And I believe that when he got a hold of Natalee, he may have thought, well, she went with me, therefore I‘m entitled to this girl.  And Natalee may have had other thoughts about that.  And, therefore, there was something that may have gone wrong there. 

Unfortunately, it‘s been a long time, and he‘s changed his story 10 times, but just because you‘re a young man who changes his story 10 times, it doesn‘t make you guilty.  And that‘s what his lawyer would say. 

CARLSON:  But he hasn‘t cracked under pressure.  His lawyer does point out, he hasn‘t confessed to anything.  He‘s a teenager. 

BROWN:  Exactly. 

CARLSON:  And it seems to me, most teenagers, had they done it, would have broken down under the pressure by now.  Does it tell you anything that he hasn‘t?

BROWN:  Well, it tells me that he might be a psychopath, who has a daddy who tells him what to say and what not to say.  It doesn‘t prove that that‘s true, and that‘s what his defense lawyer will say.

He will say yes, he changed his story a lot, but he was just a scared young man, and wouldn‘t you feel that way if you were the last person seen with her?  I mean, that‘s what I‘d do as his defense lawyer.

So of course, they‘re hoping that somewhere along the way they can have more evidence, probably to force the Kalpoe brothers over the edge so they‘ll say, “Wait a minute.  We don‘t want to go down with Joran, so we‘ll finally say what really happened.”

That‘s what I am sure they‘re hoping for, but time is going on and we‘re not seeing a lot happening here, so... 

CARLSON:  No, we‘re not. 

BROWN:  They may not be very successful. 

CARLSON:  But we are covering it assiduously, even on this show. 

BROWN:  You are. 

CARLSON:  Pat Brown, thanks a lot for joining us.  We appreciate it. 

BROWN:  My pleasure. 

CARLSON:  Coming up, a 14-year-old boy goes to court, claiming his father‘s stripper girlfriend rubbed him the wrong way.  No, he wasn‘t talking about her personality.  Tales ahead.

Plus, some amazing video from Spain, men leaping over bulls for the pure hell of it when THE SITUATION continues.  Stay tuned.


CARLSON:  Welcome back.  Time to welcome “The Outsider,” the man who reads paper placemats in keen restaurants instead of the morning newspapers, yet rises each night at sundown to play the devil‘s own advocate on the news of the moment.  The man with facial hair more carefully crafted than Michael Jackson‘s legal defense, ESPN Radio and HBO Boxing host Max Kellerman. 

Max, welcome. 

KELLERMAN:  Don‘t knock those placemats.  They can be interesting reading. 

CARLSON:  (INAUDIBLE).  I love the connect the dots. 


CARLSON:  All right.  First up, gay marriage and same-sex marriage are not the same thing.  Two Canadian men, Bill Dalrymple and Bryan Pinn, both reportedly staunchly heterosexual, and not seen here, decided in a bar recently they should marry each other for the tax break afforded by Canada‘s new laws allowing same-sex marriage. 

The law does not specifically require homosexuality for marriage, but gay rights activist Bruce Walker is not amused.  He says marriage should be about love, calls Dalrymple and Pinn, quote, “foolish.” 

I think he‘s foolish, this activist, Max.  I mean, show a little open-mindedness.  You know what I mean, just because people don‘t sleep together doesn‘t mean they‘re not married.  Right?

KELLERMAN:  Plenty of people—married people don‘t sleep together. 

CARLSON:  That‘s exactly right.  What‘s wrong with this?  My point is, look, judge not.  It‘s a different kind of love.  It‘s heterosexual friendship, posing as gay marriage, in a celibate way.  Sure, it‘s a little weird, but I don‘t think we‘re any—we‘re not in a position to judge it as wrong. 

KELLERMAN:  Well, I agree that it‘s strange that the gay activist would be against this, because you‘d think that someone who‘s benefiting from an idea of inclusiveness should foster that kind of an idea. 

However, intrinsic in the idea of marriage, the implication is that at some point, there is—there is a sexual relationship.  It‘s a legal contract entered into by partners who plan to make a commitment to each other, and at some point in the relationship, there‘s the implication of a sexual relationship. 


KELLERMAN:  And this really is mocking the institution. 

CARLSON:  You have fallen right into my trap, Max Kellerman. 

KELLERMAN:  OK.  You set one.

CARLSON:  And the trap is this: The whole notion of marriage from the beginning, and what sets it apart and distinct from, say, friendship or a romantic relationship of ordinary kind is it is a legal agreement meant to preserve an atmosphere conducive to raising kids. 

The whole point of marriage is kids, not necessarily that you have to have kids, but the possibility that you will have kids, and marriage ensures that they have this framework around them that protects them.  Once you throw that out the window and say marriage is whatever you choose it to be, then who says sex has to be a component of marriage?

KELLERMAN:  No, no, no.  Gay marriage is not marriage is whatever you choose it to be.  Gay—a gay couple can still make a commitment to raising children.  I doubt very seriously whether these two would make a commitment to raising children.  If they were... 

CARLSON:  Who is to judge?

KELLERMAN:  ... I would consider it legitimate.  Tucker, don‘t you think at some point there has to be—what does marriage mean?

CARLSON:  I‘ve actually lost track. 

KELLERMAN:  You really think gay marriage has thrown it off to the point where you‘ve lost track?  It has to be between a man and woman?

CARLSON:  No.  I just merely think it‘s gotten to the point where who is anyone to judge what is a marriage and what is not, when you throw out the old definitions.  I‘m not even saying that‘s a bad thing.  Who‘s to say what the new definition are?  Certainly not me. 

KELLERMAN:  Such a cynic, Tucker. 

CARLSON:  Well, a jury in Worcester, Massachusetts, deliberating the fate of Jenna Wright.  She‘s a 24-year-old exotic dancer who allegedly danced provocatively against the body of her boyfriend‘s 13-year-old boy. 

The boy says she made him uncomfortable, at one point, pinning him against a car with her dancing.  The question before the jury: Was Ms.  Wright‘s performance indecent assault and battery on a child under 14, or was it just playful?

Look, my problem with this story, Max, is not that I—you know, I don‘t condone what this Ms. Wright alleged did.  But I think the message...

KELLERMAN:  Sounds like Ms. Right to me, by the way. 

CARLSON:  I won‘t comment.  The message that we‘re sending to this boy, is unrealistic.  OK?  You‘re going to get older.  You‘re a man in this country.  You have the expectation, at some point a stripper is going to rub up against you.  You can‘t just start crying at that point and go to a judge, “Ooh, I‘m uncomfortable.”  No. 

So you have to learn at some point in your teenage years, these things happen.  Don‘t overreact.  Don‘t make a legal case out of it.  This boy is getting the wrong lesson. 

KELLERMAN:  Well, I don‘t know.  Look, it‘s hard for me to imagine, at the age of 13, I‘d have been very excited, maybe most guys would be very excited.  But this is a minor who wasn‘t.  He was disturbed by it. 

Let‘s look at it from her point of view.  Should she be charged?  It‘s understandable that she would think that the kid would enjoy what she was doing, so I don‘t know if the intention, there was malicious intent there. 

However, if it were a man doing it to a woman, or to a little girl, or I know what your argument, Tucker, is going to be, little girls are different than little boys.  Fine, how about a man doing it to a little boy?  I mean, he‘d be in big trouble, right?

CARLSON:  Yes, because that‘s too creepy.  And predatory.  And the difference here is that when a man does it to a little boy, it is fair to have the expectation that that man is attempting to or will attempt to molest that child. 

When a 24-year-old stripper does it to a 13-year-old boy, there‘s no expectation that she‘s going to take it farther than that. 

KELLERMAN:  Have you been reading the papers recently?  Have you been watching your own show?  Every time you turn around, a new 20 something-year-old teacher is having kids with a 13-year-old boy. 

CARLSON:  Well, usually I think they‘re about 16 or 17, which I think completely changes the nature of the contact from molestation to, you know, a cool party story.  Look, the point is...

KELLERMAN:  Why didn‘t this ever happen when I was his age?

CARLSON:  The point is, this kid is encouraged to complain about it, to go to the authorities about it, essentially to whine.  I say toughen up, son. 

KELLERMAN:  Actually, he complained—it was his idea to complain.  He really did feel—look, as odd as it may seem to us, he really did feel uncomfortable.  And you know what?  He is a minor, and sexual contact for some kids, even if they‘re boys at that age, can be uncomfortable.  And you know what?  The bottom line is, it‘s illegal. 

CARLSON:  Boy, this kid is going to have a tough life.  That‘s my prediction. 

Max Kellerman, as always. 

KELLERMAN:  Thank you, Tucker. 

CARLSON:  See you tomorrow. 


CARLSON:  Still ahead, our producer Willie Geist will join us with tomorrow‘s headlines tonight.  What do we have?

WILLIE GEIST, PRODUCER:  Tucker, what‘s up, man?  The stories tomorrow range from Hillary‘s challenger making an announcement to a celebrity sex tape.  Now, those are two separate stories, mind you. 

CARLSON:  I can‘t wait. 

Plus, a curious situation involving a blogger who‘s on a crusade to improve the design of public restrooms.  He‘ll join us to explain his crusade next.


CARLSON:  Welcome back.

We Americans share a lot of common ground, taxes, car insurance, cable TV and the use of public restrooms.  Plenty is written about the first three.  But our next guest may be the first to write about the last.  Steven Zulkowski, a law student from Long Island, New York, has a Web site dedicated to the design flaws of public facilities and in just a week and a half his cyber facility has been visited by thousands of curious web surfers.

Joining me now live from Boston is Steven Zulkowski, Steven thanks a lot for joining us.


CARLSON:  We call this the curious situation.  This is just plain—this is weird.  I mean most people I think do their best not to think about public men‘s rooms and you‘ve made it an avocation to think about public men‘s rooms.  What‘s the fascination?

ZULKOWSKI:  Well, about three years ago I was in a public restroom at a rest stop and I was inside of a McDonald‘s just off of the highway and I was using a, you know, standing up using a urinal.

And the urinal was in the corner and adjacent to the—on the same corner was a door and somebody came in through the door and the door hit me in the rear.  And, I was laughing so hard about it because I‘m like, you know, how could this urinal be in this spot here where the door clearly opens and, you know, hit me and probably hit, you know, other people too?

I went home.  You know I keep a journal and I was just laughing so hard about it the whole day I went home and I diagrammed it.  A couple weeks later, a similar situation.

CARLSON:  Wait, I‘m sorry you diagrammed, you diagrammed the layout of the men‘s room?

ZULKOWSKI:  Yes, in my journal I diagrammed, you know, what it looked like and how the door would swing and how it hit me.

CARLSON:  Hold on.  As you were diagramming that in your journal, did you ever stop and think, you know, this is sort of a weird thing to be doing in my journal?

ZULKOWSKI:  Well, no.  It was just so funny that it, you know, that it happened and, you know, that I had been hit by the door, so I showed my friends, you know, like what was in my journal and we laughed about it.

And we‘re like, oh what a—you know this is a funny idea, you know.  You have two of these, three of these, you know what, you know what if you got more?  This would be like a great coffee table book.

CARLSON:  OK, I want to read a selection from your journal, which is now posted online.  This is your review of the men‘s room in an iHop in Watertown, Massachusetts.

You write, “Unlike the old Boston Garden, there isn‘t a bad seat in the house here.  It seems like no matter where you‘re standing if someone is using the urinal you might see the entire show unobstructed.”

ZULKOWSKI:  That‘s correct.  What I‘m describing there...

CARLSON:  What‘s the purpose of writing that down?

ZULKOWSKI:  Well, it‘s—I think it‘s—people need to know, you know, like what a, you know, there are things that make people uncomfortable in public restrooms.


ZULKOWSKI:  And some people don‘t dwell on them and some people are like me and they, you know, they‘re a little uncomfortable about certain things in public restrooms.

CARLSON:  Well, I‘ll tell you what makes me uncomfortable is when people take pictures in public men‘s rooms and that‘s something you do.  You‘ve got pictures of men‘s rooms on your Web site.  Has anybody ever said, you know, hey don‘t bring a camera in here?

ZULKOWSKI:  No, nobody—nobody has said that.  I make sure that there‘s nobody in the restroom when I‘m photographing.  You know, I make sure everything is, you know, I don‘t photograph people.  I don‘t photograph bodily fluid.  I don‘t bother—I don‘t photograph anything that would, you know (INAUDIBLE).

CARLSON:  So, you‘ve never been arrested for bringing a camera in?


CARLSON:  OK.  Now where do you go with this?  I mean is there a branch of academia you could go into?  What are you hopes and dreams from here on out?

ZULKOWSKI:  Well, my hopes and dreams?  This is just like something I‘m doing, you know.  It started out just for fun.  I never intended for the blog to get half as big as it‘s gotten. 

I never really intended, you know, 26,000 people have hit my blog just this week alone and I had no idea it would really get that big, so hopes and dreams are just to, you know, I‘m not, you know, I‘m not making any money on it.  I don‘t intend to not from any advertisements.

CARLSON:  Tell me, I mean I should—I guess I should ask you the obvious question.  Tell me quickly, what, you know, what do you look for in the design of a men‘s room?

ZULKOWSKI:  Well, when I go in I look for things like I‘m just using the restroom and then usually what will happen is these items will be working properly and they‘ll have an unintended effect. 

For instance, I recently visited a hotel, hotel lobby in Boston and they have an automatic soap dispenser and an automatic faucet and the faucet is like at 12:00.  The soap dispenser is at 10:00.  You put your hand on the soap, you put your hand under the water, you‘re washing your hands. 

Now your wrist is under 10:00, so it sets off a motion detector for the soap and spits soap on your wrist.  You got to wash the soap off your wrist and your forearm/elbow area is under and it will spit soap on your arm.

CARLSON:  Oh, that‘s bad.  Is that worst—is that the worst men‘s room you‘ve ever been in?

ZULKOWSKI:  No, that‘s not the worst one.  The worst one I‘ve ever...

CARLSON:  Well, yes tell me what‘s the worst?  What‘s a men‘s room you‘d never return to no matter how bad you had to go?

ZULKOWSKI:  The worst one that I‘ve ever seen and it has since been renovated, probably because people complained because this is so obvious, you walk in and when the door to the restroom is in the corner and on the adjacent wall to that corner there are two urinals.  One is a little bit lower than the other one.  The lower one is closer.

So, when you walk in, the first thing you see is the side view of somebody using that urinal and since it‘s smaller there‘s really no place for them to hide.  There‘s no divide or no nothing.  This is a restaurant.

CARLSON:  That sounds like a terrifying men‘s room.  How‘s law school

by the way?

ZULKOWSKI:  Law school is going well luckily, thank goodness.  You know this doesn‘t have to be my career move.  Law school is going well and I‘m excited to finish next year.

CARLSON:  Steven Zulkowski, I have the feeling, no the certainty we‘ll be reading about you again.  I hope you‘ll come back on.  Thanks for the update.

ZULKOWSKI:  Thank you very much.

CARLSON:  The world of men‘s rooms, Steven Zulkowski, thanks.

Time now for some news we‘ll be talking about tomorrow.  Let‘s welcome our producer Willie Geist, normally seen on the cutting room floor, for some breaking stories that have happened since we‘ve been on the air.

GEIST:  I‘m just catching my breath from that interview.  Is it possible that he has sort of a restroom fetish?  Yes, I‘m interested in the layout of restrooms.

CARLSON:  Judge not, Willie, that‘s my mantra tonight.

GEIST:  Therefore, I visit them frequently.  God bless him. 

Yes, we got some stuff hot off the press.  I know you‘ve been looking to go to the moon sometime.

CARLSON:  Yes, I am.

GEIST:  You‘re in luck.

CARLSON:  Outstanding.

GEIST:  Press conference tomorrow morning. 

CARLSON:  Space Adventures of Arlington, Virginia will unveil an agreement with the Russian space program to send tourists into space.  The voyage could last up to 21 days.  It costs $100 million for one round trip, circle the moon and land on earth.  That‘s the plan.  This could all happen as early as 2008.  It‘s hard to believe that.

GEIST:  Are you interested?

CARLSON:  I‘ll tell you this, as James Carville once said to me and I thought it was a particularly insightful point, he said “I wouldn‘t get on a Russian elevator” and that‘s kind of how I feel.  You‘d have to be (INAUDIBLE) to do something like that.

GEIST:  That‘s good advice.  My other favorite part of that story is it‘s $100 million for a round trip.  I might pop for the round trip.  You hate to get stuck out in outer space.

CARLSON:  That‘s not one of those deals you want to skimp on.

GEIST:  That‘s right.  That‘s right.

CARLSON:  In political news, Jeanine Pirro formally announces tomorrow that she‘ll be running against Hillary Rodham Clinton for the Senate seat in New York in 2006.  That will happen at 11:00 a.m.  She says Mrs. Clinton is more interested in the U.S. presidency than in serving New Yorkers. 

It should be said that Jeanine Pirro is predictably maybe for a New York Republican quite liberal on the social issues, pretty conservative on economics.  There are questions about her husband‘s past.

GEIST:  Right.

CARLSON:  I believe he‘s a convicted felon.  That may pop up.

GEIST:  Tax evasion that‘s right.  Some people think she could win.  I mean do you think a Republican can win in New York?  Is it possible?

CARLSON:  Well, of course it‘s possible.  There have been Republican governors here.  I think it‘s unlikely.  I mean the whole point of this is to kind of torment Hillary Clinton.

You know I think it‘s going to be difficult actually, more difficult.  People don‘t understand how hard it is to run statewide for any office, even if you‘re just doing it to make a point.

Even if you‘re doing it to hurt the other guy, you still have to get on a little plane every morning and fly to places you‘ve never heard of and talk to people you have no interest in talking to, you know.

GEIST:  Right.  Well, let‘s be honest, Hillary is running for president and you‘re always barking around the office that liberals love to say that Hillary can‘t win.


GEIST:  Could you explain that because most people don‘t think she can?

CARLSON:  Most liberals don‘t think she can.  Look, I mean you know people thought, I thought, I lived in Washington at the time Mrs. Clinton was going to spend the rest of her life on some U.N. committee lecturing the rest of us on her own moral superiority and instead she chose to run and she won.  Granted it was in New York State but, you know, this is a clich’.  I honestly would not underestimate her.  And who else to the Democrats have Howard Dean?

GEIST:  Let‘s move on to something a little more salacious if you don‘t mind.

CARLSON:  Colin Farrell, he filed suit to block his ex-girlfriend, that‘s Playboy playmate Nicole Narain, none of our viewers familiar with her I‘m sure, from commercially distributing a sex tape the two made together.  The court hearing tomorrow.  Farrell, of course, says if this tape becomes public it could hurt his career.

GEIST:  Right.

CARLSON:  Having apparently never heard of Paris Hilton.

GEIST:  Right.  Also, his impeccable morality too like all of a sudden he‘s a saint, Colin Farrell.

CARLSON:  yes, it‘s not one of those stories you are shocked by but in a way though it is kind of shocking.  I mean if you‘re an actor and you‘re with someone who you don‘t really know who‘s already proved her willingness to take her clothes off on camera...

GEIST:  Right.

CARLSON: ...are you really going to make a sex tape with her?

GEIST:  No, do not put it on celluloid.  I‘ve always said that.  What‘s your take on that by the way?  Are you pro or con sex tapes, not for yourself just for celebrities, Paris Hilton, Tommy Lee?

CARLSON:  I don‘t think I want to see it.  I think, you know, I‘ve only seen the Paris Hilton tape, which really gave sex a bad name.  It was the most boring eight minutes I‘ve ever seen on camera.  It was horrible.  It made me and I think everyone who saw it want to be celibate for life.

GEIST:  Well, she‘s very busy, phone calls and what have you.  Being Paris Hilton just never stops.

CARLSON:  It was horrible.  Willie Geist.

GEIST:  See you in a bit.

CARLSON:  See you at the cutting room floor.

Coming up, how young is too young for a cell phone?  A wireless company plans to push the limits and you thought raising kids was tough already.  Wait until they get a phone.

Plus, Heidi Fleiss didn‘t use to love attention.  She does now.  What business is she in now speaking of?  Answers and reactions lie just ahead.  Don‘t go ahead.


CARLSON:  Welcome back to “The Situation.”

Sitting in for Captain Lou Albano, I‘m Tucker Carlson.  This week we begin a new segment where we encourage you to share your thoughts about a story in the news, this show itself or, if you must, me by voicemail.  Our mailbox is already full, so let‘s take a listen to what we have.  Here we go.


JIM, HOBOKEN, NEW JERSEY:  Hey, Tucker, this is Jim from Hoboken.  I just want to talk about the shuttle landing today.  Say what you will about NASA but when I watched that shuttle hit ground, I got to say it was a great moment.  Any man who doesn‘t get goose bumps watching that is not a real American.


CARLSON:  You know I agree with you, Jim.  It was the first thing I saw this morning.  It actually was a wonderful sight watching it land safely.  I do wonder though if the mission of the shuttle is simply to land safely, I‘m not sure that is a good use of our tax dollars but still it was wonderful to see it happen.  Next.


MAGGIE, CEDAR RAPIDS, IOWA:  Hi, I wanted to leave a message for “The Situation” with Tucker Carlson.  My name is Maggie and, first, I wanted to say that I‘m really happy you all moved to 11:00 p.m.  I‘m now able to catch the show here in Cedar Rapids, Iowa.

But I just wanted to get Tucker‘s take on this Canadian company Rogers Wireless that has launched the cell phone for kids.  Having two children I know my kids are probably going to want it and I was just curious what his opinion is on it.

Thanks so much.


CARLSON:  Get a grip, Maggie.  Don‘t let them have phones.  This is a sign of the end times if there ever was one.  If you think it‘s annoying to listen to people chat on their cell phones in public places, imagine 8-year-olds sitting in the departure lounge at the airport yapping on about Pokemon and Star Wars.  It‘s horrible, couldn‘t be worse.  Stop them before they get cell phones, Maggie.  That‘s my advice.  All right, next.


CRAIG, BRONX, NEW YORK:  Hey, Tucker, this is Craig from the Bronx.  I hear that this Representative Don Young from Alaska is asking the government for $941 million for highways, to build roads and bridges.  I understand he wants to name a bridge after himself out there. 

How can that happen when this country is so hard up for money with protecting ourselves with homeland security?  I mean I think this guys deserves the Purple Nurple, not the kid from last night.  All right, let me know more about this.  Thanks, Tuck.


CARLSON:  The Purple Nurple, the kid from last night.  Those of you who weren‘t watching the show last night, we had a reenactment of the Purple Nurple, oh there it is.  That‘s a Purple Nurple as reenacted by two of our crack producers.  Bottom line you don‘t want to get one, though Don Young deserves one.  You‘re absolutely right.

Pork is outrageous but naming something after yourself, something that‘s been paid for with public funds, unless you‘re Kim Jong-Il, it‘s totally wrong on every level and moreover it‘s embarrassing.  And, Don Young, whom I like very much, is a riot, a wild man, should be embarrassed himself naming things after yourself.  It‘s just wrong.  All right, next.


BRICE, PARUMPH, NEVADA:  Hey there, Tucker, this is Brice from Parumph, Nevada.  I recently heard that Heidi Fleiss is back in business.  I‘m wondering if you‘re going to be visiting her establishment.  I know I will.


CARLSON:  All right, Brice, you‘re a creep.  You‘re a creep.  No surprise at all you live in Parumph, Nevada, no offense to the other residents of Parumph.  Look, Heidi Fleiss does nothing to put any normal person in the mood, no offense to Heidi Fleiss.

I interviewed Heidi Fleiss a couple of years ago and I can tell you the last thing on my mind was sex.  Her book, by the way, I think it was called “Sex,” covered in Saran wrap, layer after layer.  She couldn‘t open it and get a sneak peak in the bookstore. 

It‘s a good thing.  The book made no sense.  It was the least sexual book ever published.  She will starve to death if she tried to get back into the hooker business.  That‘s my prediction.  Next.


SIENNA, SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA:  Hi, this is Sienna calling from San Francisco and I just want to say that I‘m so happy that Tucker moved to eleven o‘clock because we love him out here and I just want to say I think Tucker is so cute and keep up the good work.  Thanks so much.  Have a great night.


CARLSON:  Well, thank you Sienna and thanks to everyone from San Francisco.  I was born, in fact, in the same hospital as Jerry Garcia was born in.  By the way, today is the tenth anniversary of the death of Jerry Garcia.  Observe a moment of silence if you haven‘t already.  There are only nine minutes left to the day, so do it before time runs out.  Thanks, Sienna, I got a haircut today by the way.

All right.  Coming up on “The Situation,” how do you know when your presidential approval ratings are getting too low, the Rolling Stones start passing moral judgments on you.  Mick and Keith take on the commander-in-chief just ahead.

As everyone knows, New York Yankee fans are morons but how did this fool end up with a bird‘s eye view of the game tonight?  You won‘t believe the story.  We‘ll tell it to you from the cutting room floor.  We‘ll be right back.


CARLSON:  Welcome back.

Time to sweep up all the odds and ends of news we couldn‘t pack into this otherwise jam-packed show.  We call it the cutting room floor.  Willie Geist rejoins us—Willie.

GEIST:  Well, Tucker, a fine show. 

I‘m going to make a producer‘s decision here.  I want to revisit that Jennifer Wilbanks (INAUDIBLE).

CARLSON:  I do too.

GEIST:  I think we gave it short shrift. 

CARLSON:  She looked pretty good I thought actually.

GEIST:  If we could see that again, pretty good technique I can say. 

I landscaped for three summers, nice technique here on the small mower.  She‘s working the perimeter a little bit, which is nice.  She struggles a little on the uphill certainly but for a rookie not bad I would say.

CARLSON:  How weird is it though that she‘s mowing the lawn with TV cameras.

GEIST:  Right.

CARLSON:  I don‘t think a lot of the other community servants...


CARLSON: ...have cameras following them around.

GEIST:  There‘s never been that much scrutiny on landscaping in the history of time.  Go ahead.

CARLSON:  All right.  Oh, it‘s going to be a good one.  Well, President Bush‘s approval ratings are down lately, nowhere more so than in the all important elderly rock star demographic.

On their soon-to-be-released album, the Rolling Stones have a song called “Sweet Neocon.”  It criticizes the Bush administration.  In one verse, Mick Jagger sings “You call yourself a Christian, I think you‘re a hypocrite.  You call yourself a patriot, well I think you‘re full of blank.”

GEIST:  Ooh.

CARLSON:  What that doesn‘t rhyme with any blank word I know.

GEIST:  Hypocrite, no?

CARLSON:  I guess it kind of does.

GEIST:  Yes.  I‘m a huge Stones fan.


GEIST:  But my “Sweet Neocon,” this is the worst song, this is the worst song I have ever heard.

CARLSON:  You know people always say all the years of drugs and hard living haven‘t really affected Keith Richards or Mick Jagger.

GEIST:  This is the first time it has.  We want to hear about groupies and heroin.  We don‘t want to hear about neocons.

CARLSON:  That‘s exactly right.

GEIST:  Federal Reserve or anything else.

CARLSON:  Well, apparently just being a plain old death-defying matador wasn‘t enough for these guys.  The Spanish bull jumpers have modified their traditional bull fighting by actually leaping and flipping over the bulls. 

The young acrobats get a running start, wait until the last possible moment, then vault themselves over the charging bulls.  They started bull jumping as an alternative to bull fighting because they were tired of seeing bulls killed in the ring.

GEIST:  That is so awesome.  I predict, Tucker, these guys will be doing six nights a week in Vegas inside of a year.  You know this is like Cirque du Soleil except you can die.

CARLSON:  And, you know, as we‘ve learned, animal acts in Vegas are more hazardous than they appear.

GEIST:  They are.  Don‘t make jokes.

CARLSON:  I‘m not making a joke.  I just think it is.

GEIST:  Those are my boys.

CARLSON:  And, in fact, may I just say not to be like the PETA animal rights nut that I secretly am but good for them for not killing the bulls.

GEIST:  I agree.

CARLSON:  I do feel that way. 

All right, looking up a stranger‘s skirt is never advisable but especially not when a surveillance camera is following your every move.  This man got caught on tape in a Kansas City area clothing store sneaking, that‘s right sneaking a few photos up a woman‘s dress with his cell phone.  After he was arrested, the man confessed to being a serial up-skirter.

GEIST:  This guy is awful.

How about kids today though with their cell phones?  Whatever happened to put a good old-fashioned mirror on your shoe and get yourself up in there?  No, I disapprove and this is horrible.

CARLSON:  It‘s totally wrong.  It‘s funny it‘s has its own name.  I‘m an up-skirter.

GEIST:  Right, exactly, a cell phone (INAUDIBLE).

CARLSON:  I wouldn‘t know what to say.  Good for you.

All right, if decorating public property with a bunch of old toilets is wrong, one Minnesota man doesn‘t want to be right.  Lee Jackson has placed flower-filled toilets along a town road with a sign advertising his septic company.

City officials were not amused, however, and they‘ve charged him with trespassing.  Jackson says his toilets beautify the community.  He can‘t imagine why the city doesn‘t appreciate them.

GEIST:  I can‘t either.  Leave old Lee Jackson alone.  He‘s trying to make this town a better place.  It‘s not like he‘s going out and using the toilets.

CARLSON:  Well actually, right, and beautifying is a subjective term. 

I mean we don‘t know what the town looked like before the toilets.

GEIST:  That‘s beautiful according to me I‘d say.  Keep what you‘re doing Lee.

CARLSON:  Well, during the eighth inning of tonight‘s Yankees/White Sox game in New York a fan fell from the upper deck onto a net behind home plate.  It started as a scary moment and it quickly became hilarious as he shook off his daze and tried to figure out what the heck to do next.

The players stopped to watch and the Yankee Stadium crowd cheered his Spiderman like ascent up the net.  He eventually reached the stands and security quickly swooped him up.

GEIST:  In the storied history of this great Yankee franchise, 26 world titles, this may be the greatest moment in the history of Yankee Stadium.  The World Series, Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, you can have it all, I‘ll take that right there.

CARLSON:  Look and he‘s like exposing plumber‘s butt as he does it.

GEIST:  That just happened moments ago.

CARLSON:  He is—look at that.

GEIST:  And now they‘re arresting him for falling from the upper deck as if that weren‘t punishment enough.

CARLSON:  That‘s New York.  All right and that‘s “The Situation” for tonight.  Thanks a lot for joining us.

Up next, “Countdown with Keith Olbermann”—Keith.



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