Guest: Mark Gwyn, Dennis Morgan, Carla Keaton, Michael Hyatte, David
Haggard, Chris Cawood, Benvinda DeSousa, Rod Wheeler
RITA COSBY, HOST: I'm coming to you LIVE AND DIRECT from Kingston, Tennessee, the epicenter of a nationwide manhunt that began with a deadly jailbreak. Breaking news tonight, where the chase has just moved to north of here, about four-and-a-half hours north, to a motel in Erlanger, Kentucky, where the getaway van has been found and where we will take you there live.
And in just a few minutes, you're going to hear for the very first time from these amazing people from both the suspect's family, they're here with me live, and the family of the officer who was killed. They're all right next to me, and they're going to be with me here tonight.
But first, we go to Erlanger, Kentucky, 275 miles north of here, where the suspect's car, actually, this van was found just a short time ago. Reporter Sheree Paolello of NBC affiliate WLWT is there with the very latest—Sheree?
SHEREE PAOLELLO, WLWT-TV: Well, Rita, about four hours ago, police got a tip. Apparently, this wanted couple was staying here at the Econolodge. Now, this is northern Kentucky. This is just about 15 miles south of Cincinnati, Ohio. And as you can imagine, within minutes, federal and local police had this motel just surrounded. They busted into room 111. Although George and Jennifer Hyatte had already split, apparently, they left behind some evidence. Blood was found in the room. That room is on the other side of the motel that you're looking at right here. Then that gold stolen van that you mentioned, Rita, was also found in a parking lot next door.
Now, right now, police have taken that van into custody—or in as evidence, rather, also collecting that blood and just scouring room number 111 here, trying to find any evidence that they may have left behind.
Unfortunately, though, this couple, this wanted couple that police are searching so desperately for, this manhunt nationwide—unfortunately, this couple has eluded police yet again. The manhunt continues. We are getting information from police that they are getting tips galore, apparently, several different descriptions of possible stolen vehicles. But right now, unfortunately, we can't give you any plate numbers or any real description, as police are just trying to narrow down these leads—
COSBY: All right, thank you very much.
So what is next? Well, we're going to bring in now Mark Gwyn, who's the director of the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation. Director Gwyn, first of all, thank you very much. I know it's a very busy night for you, and we appreciate you being here. Big tip just came in two hours ago. You swarm upon the hotel, but no sign of them, right? It sounds like you missed them by minutes.
MARK GWYN, TENNESSEE BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION: Missed them by minutes, but obviously, we're concentrating our efforts in that area right now. We feel like they're still in the area. And we—federal agencies, local agencies, state agencies are there, combing the streets, and we hope to maybe apprehend them shortly.
COSBY: I asked you this in your news conference. You don't have any indication that they took away—that they went away in a getaway van, another vehicle, right, at this point?
GWYN: No, we do not have any indication.
COSBY: Does that mean they're on foot?
GWYN: Could be. But we really feel strongly they're still in the area.
COSBY: What was the indication that you just missed them?
GWYN: There was a lot of evidence that we found in the room that was
left behind, which indicates to us they left probably in a hurry. It means
· and we hope and think that they're still in the area.
COSBY: George Hyatte left here yesterday heavily shackled. Had the waist shackle on, the leg shackles, the cuffs. Do you believe he is still in that situation at this point?
GWYN: We do not.
COSBY: And why is that?
GWYN: From eyewitness accounts, he does not have any shackles on at this time.
COSBY: Do you have any indication why he got to Erlanger, Kentucky, why he went there?
GWYN: No, we don't. We don't. We have no idea.
COSBY: How much more complicated does this make the effort? I mean, it certainly makes it a bigger area to cover.
GWYN: Well, it turns it into kind of a nationwide manhunt, as opposed to a statewide manhunt. But we're working in conjunction with the federal authorities, the local authorities in Kentucky and Ohio. So we've got the area covered pretty well.
COSBY: Speak of covered, do you have dogs on the scent?
GWYN: We have the area covered.
COSBY: You have the area...
COSBY: Safe to say you probably have dogs on the hunt there.
COSBY: Tell us about here. You know, we—this was incredible, I walked the courthouse today, saw the scene. You look at the security here. Are there things that you're going to go back and review after this?
GWYN: Well, you know, that will be up to the county, up to the sheriff. I would expect the situation to be critiqued by a lot of people, but really, that's up to the county. It's their courthouse, and the sheriff and other people that are responsible for that.
COSBY: You talked about the condition of George. What about Jennifer Hyatte? Because we—there was some blood.
GWYN: We feel like she's pretty badly injured. And we have all the reason to believe that her situation has not gotten any better.
COSBY: And may need some help, and maybe that'll bring her in, at some point.
COSBY: We hope it ends peacefully. Thank you very much.
GWYN: Thank you.
COSBY: Thank you, Director. We appreciate it.
And again, if anyone's watching here tonight, make sure that if you have any information about the shooting or the whereabouts of the couple, authorities are asking for your help. So please call the hotline that is set up by the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation. That's the number that you see there on your screen. It is 1-800-FBI-FIND -- (SIC). That is 1-800-TBI-FIND, rather. Investigators are telling reporters that they're getting—get this -- 30 calls an hour.
And while police continue to hunt down the couple on the run, LIVE AND DIRECT has learned exclusively that Jennifer Hyatte stayed at this Kingston hotel—it's a Comfort Inn—on Sunday and Monday night. And she stayed in this room, it's room 118, which the FBI dusted for fingerprints. You can see the marcations (ph) there. We're also told that several maids found suspicious items in that room and which authorities tell us that are linked to the crime. That hotel is located just about five minutes away from here, five minutes away from the courthouse.
And for the very first time tonight, we have a very emotional meeting between two families at the heart of this crime. As all eyes focus on the intense search tonight for the brazen couple, it's important not to forget the man who lost his life in the line of duty. Fifty-six-year-old Wayne Morgan was shot and killed while transporting George Hyatte after a court hearing. There's a picture of Officer Morgan.
And with me now tonight is Wayne's son and daughter, Dennis Morgan and also Carla Keaton (ph). And also we have with us here the fugitive's brother, Michael Hyatte. Also with us his wife, Heather (ph).
First of all, I have to say to both of you, and all of you, obviously, our condolences because this is a difficult situation, and especially for both of you. How are both of you holding up?
DENNIS MORGAN, SON: We're good, considering.
COSBY: How did you find out the news?
CARLA KEATON, DAUGHTER: My mother had called and said that the chaplain at the prison had called her and actually told her that Dad had been shot. But we didn't know the—if it was critical, and we just made the relay phone calls and got word to everyone.
COSBY: So how did you find out, Dennis?
MORGAN: I was at work, and a co-worker told me that a shooting had happened in Kingston. I just somehow knew without any other details that it was—my dad involved, so I started trying to make calls, and the calls just turned into finding out that he had been shot. So I just made my way to the hospital, and that's where they told me that he had passed away.
COSBY: And you were there?
COSBY: Tell us about your dad. You know, right before the show, we had a great talk, and I just saw some wonderful pictures, too. Your dad—
I mean, loving father, loving grandfather, and just a special man. This is a man who loved the church, loved his family.
KEATON: There's nothing that he wouldn't do for anybody. He was really just an avid—avid just hunter, church goer, just...
MORGAN: A good Christian guy.
COSBY: And even loved the inmates, you know?
COSBY: ... today that he even knew George Hyatte.
COSBY: I mean, he had transported him a couple times, right?
MORGAN: Yes, he founded (ph) their respect. And he was in a position at the prison, in the correctional facility, to make a difference in someone's lives. So I believe that's what he was meant do.
KEATON: That was his purpose.
COSBY: He had a higher calling and wanted to do something good.
COSBY: What would...
KEATON: He had actually—he had actually witnessed to George...
COSBY: He did?
KEATON: ... several times.
COSBY: He did?
KEATON: Yes, according to his partner.
MORGAN: Yes, that was with him that day.
COSBY: Wow. And actually preached the gospel and spoke about things?
KEATON: Yes. Yes.
COSBY: How would your dad feel now?
KEATON: He would want us just to forgive and just move on and just pray that he could change his life. And here...
MORGAN: And that his death will make a difference somehow, so...
COSBY: Well, and joining us now, I want to bring in—as we're looking at these beautiful pictures here, I want to bring in Michael Hyatte because I know this has been awfully tough for you. And I appreciate your wife, Heather. It's been tough for all of both. What would you like to say to this beautiful family?
MICHAEL HYATTE, SUSPECT'S BROTHER: I'd like to say we're very sorry.
My whole family offers our condolences.
COSBY: Mike, if you could speak up and...
HYATTE: If there were anything that we could do, you know, for the family...
MORGAN: I appreciate that.
HYATTE: ... we will. And so far as, you know, your father have to die and (INAUDIBLE)
MORGAN: And we have no—we have no anger or remorse against you guys. We just hope that you think the same way that we do, that the right thing should be done.
HYATTE: Yes, we do.
MORGAN: And I know you do. I saw your interview earlier.
HYATTE: ... we want. You know, we want him to pay for what he done, you know, to give (INAUDIBLE) give up and (INAUDIBLE)
KEATON: Let's just hope that he doesn't go to sleep at night without knowing that my dad had talked to him and that all the conversations they've had, maybe that he would change his life.
HYATTE: Well, we're hoping that (INAUDIBLE) brother—you know, I talked to him from Baghdad today, and you know, he told me that—to really tell you all that, you know, the Lord's going to work this out. You know, George, if he just, you know, listened to his heart and does what the Lord tell him, that, you know, he's going to do the right thing.
But me and my family, you know, we can't imagine what you're going through right now. I have a mother ill with cancer. And I mean, I lost my father three years ago, so I mean, I know the hurt and the pain that that causes. And please—I mean, we're very sorry.
MORGAN: We appreciate that.
HYATTE: We're very sorry.
COSBY: If your brother is watching right now—and I'd love to ask you both this, too, because we hope he's watching TV. Last (INAUDIBLE) as we heard from Director Gwyn that he's in—obviously, in Erlanger, Kentucky. Sounds like he may be there still on foot. If he's watching right now, is there something you want to say to him?
HYATTE: I want to say, George, you know, I want you to—to give yourself up. Give us a call. We've been—you know, we've been waiting on you to call, and you haven't called us. Greg (ph) told me to tell you that he knows somewhere deep down inside, George, that you know that the Lord, you know, will help you. He's the only one that can help you now. But you got to do the right thing. You got to do the right thing and call us, so we can get the TBI. They said—they promised that you wouldn't be harmed.
You know, their father got, you know, killed needlessly, and you know, it's time to stand accountable, George. It's time to get this over with. Your mama's sick. She—I don't know how much more she can take, you know, but her main concerns are for the family, you know, of the officer, you know, that got gunned down. You know, she's concerned about you, too. And if you love your mama, George, you call me or her once, you know, any time day or night, and we'll make a way to come get you. And we want you to do that.
COSBY: Mike, what do you think caused your brother to do this?
HYATTE: He just wasn't sure what to do. He got confused. He thought that—he didn't want to spend the rest of his life in prison, you know, and...
COSBY: Did you see this coming? Or did your family see this coming in any way?
HYATTE: No, we didn't. We didn't see it coming at all because, I mean, he's done a lot of bad things in his life, but he never went so far as to take another human life. We don't condone what he done at all. We never will.
COSBY: Are you worried how this is going to end?
HYATTE: I'm worried—we're worried because two wrongs don't make a right. Killing him's not going to bring your father back. I'm sorry, but it's not. Killing him is not going to bring him back. We have a real chance to see what they had in store for him today, and I believe that a lot of people that don't know him, what they're going to do, they're going to—they're going to try to hurt him. They're going to try to—they're going to try to take him out.
You know, but that's my little brother. You know, that's—you know, his mama, that's her baby boy. You know, if I could have stood there and took that bullet for your father, I promise you, I would have done that. Without a doubt.
COSBY: If he's watching right now, what would you like to say to George and Jennifer Hyatte, if they're watching right now? And we hope they are.
MORGAN: We just hope you do the right thing. Just turn yourself in.
Put an end to the madness and the chaos that's going on in our lives.
COSBY: I understand you're going to have some beautiful funeral arrangements. And your dad was so well loved. It's going to be at a—what, an auditorium, a school auditorium?
COSBY: I don't know if an auditorium's going to be big enough for the people that loved your dad. How does that make you feel? Your dad was a real hero.
KEATON: He was a hero to us, and...
MORGAN: Makes me proud.
KEATON: It's proud—it makes us proud to know that he was also a hero to the community.
MORGAN: And that he was definitely loved by his co-workers and friends and family.
COSBY: Well loved by many, I can tell you. Since I've been here, everyone's been just talking about him. And he's probably the closest thing to a saint, I think, in this town. I thank you both for being here and for your courage for being here tonight.
MORGAN: Thank you.
COSBY: And I thank you, and I hope your brother's watching. And my prayers with all of you tonight because I know it's going to be a tough one. Thank you very much.
And everybody, stay tuned. We've got a lot more coming up here, a lot more on LIVE AND DIRECT coming up. We're going to take you inside the courthouse right here behind me for an exclusive look at where the dramatic escape unfolded. And then we're going to go to Aruba and the Natalee Holloway case. Find out who's pushing to get the FBI out of the investigation. And later, my exclusive interview with Nathaniel Brazil (ph). He shot his teacher dead when he was only 13. Five years later, is he sorry? You be the judge. It's all ahead on LIVE AND DIRECT.
COSBY: And welcome back, everybody. I'm Rita Cosby, LIVE AND DIRECT from Kingston, Tennessee. You're looking at what just happened here a few moments ago during the break, as you can see, a really, really emotional scene here as the daughter and also son of Officer Wayne Morgan, who was killed yesterday here at this courthouse, getting a big hug from Michael Hyatte's brother, Michael—rather, George Hyatte's brother, Michael, just a really touching, emotional scene, as you saw a few minutes ago, and basically, asking for forgiveness and just saying, Please forgive what my brother did, and just an amazing outpouring of faith and just redemption. It was incredible to see it here. And soon after that, after the break, I'm hugging and actually exchanging phone numbers and so forth, just a really touching moment, and we wanted to share it with all of you.
Meanwhile, police have followed the suspects almost now 300 miles north to Erlanger, Kentucky, where they have found their getaway car at a motel only three hours ago. But the so-called Bonnie and Clyde couple are nowhere to be found. And as the search moves to Kentucky, officials are also casing the crime scene back here in Tennessee for any clues as to what went wrong.
We went inside the courthouse and traced the steps of George and Jennifer Hyatte in the moments leading up to their deadly escape. Our first stop, the witness room.
So George Hyatte would have been in here.
SHERIFF DAVID HAGGARD, ROANE COUNTY, TENNESSEE: Correct.
COSBY: Was his wife with him?
HAGGARD: They allowed his wife to come in and visit with him for a brief time.
COSBY: And where would they have been sitting?
HAGGARD: Most likely over toward the wall because the corrections officers would have been between them and the door.
COSBY: So the correction officers would have been sitting here...
HAGGARD: Probably so.
COSBY: ... at this point. He would have been shackled at this point.
HAGGARD: That's correct.
COSBY: So even though this room doesn't seem like a lot of security, he's shackled and he's cuffed. He's got the belly-waist (ph) on, the leg shackles. They're keeping an eye on him.
HAGGARD: That's right.
COSBY: And then where did he go from here?
HAGGARD: They should have gone across the hall to the jury room with his attorney.
COSBY: So he finishes talking to his defense attorney, and then he comes in here.
HAGGARD: Yes, he would have been announced to come into court, and their case would have been called. So the attorney would come in. They would sit at the defense table here. So you've had your attorney and his client, the defendant, George Hyatte.
COSBY: So Hyatte's sitting here.
HAGGARD: Then some point in time, the judge would tell them to approach the bench, so the defendant would be here before the bench. The judge would pronounce sentence, and they would finish the business with the court.
COSBY: And this is where he entered the guilty plea.
HAGGARD: That's correct. And then he would turn to the defense table, talk to his attorney briefly, and then they would exit, with the corrections officers taking charge of him, out of the courtroom.
COSBY: Now, from everything we've heard, his demeanor was normal. When he spoke with his wife, there was nothing unusual said in that room with the officers there?
HAGGARD: That's what I was told.
COSBY: But the wife also worked in the prison system, so maybe you can say they would know prison code?
HAGGARD: Having the knowledge that she had, she knew exactly what was going on. And she exited the courtroom before the officers or her husband did. So that give her time to get down into the parking lot and get to place in her car.
COSBY: So Sheriff, the wife runs out. Where does she go?
HAGGARD: She went out the way we come in, went down the steps, out into the parking lot, and about where those three vehicles—there's a white, red and blue vehicle parked out past the handicapped sign on the far side of the cub there. Her car was parked out there, next to where the prison van was parked.
COSBY: So literally where we see the red car, that's where she was parked.
HAGGARD: It was in one of those spaces along in there. I can't tell you exactly which space she was in, but it was in that general vicinity of those three parking places. And the van was parked right past her. So when her husband come down with the corrections officer, she was in position for him.
COSBY: So right where this woman's running is basically where she's parked. And then to the right is where the van is. So she was only a few feet away.
HAGGARD: That's correct.
COSBY: So she had clear view of the officers. And obviously, when she opened fire, they had no chance.
HAGGARD: They were totally surprised.
COSBY: George Hyatte leaves the courtroom. He goes through here?
HAGGARD: Right out this hallway and into the main hallway, and then over to the stairwell, where he'd have gone right down these steps and out into the main lobby to exit the building.
COSBY: And the officers are by his side the whole time.
HAGGARD: I'm sure they are.
HAGGARD: And he's shackled still.
HAGGARD: Yes. They walk right out through these doors and down the steps and into the parking lot.
COSBY: OK. Still guarded, still...
HAGGARD: Still guarded. The two officers are with him.
COSBY: So Sheriff, they all walked along here.
HAGGARD: Right. They're going back to the van, the Department of Corrections van, to load the inmate back in.
COSBY: And the van is about here?
HAGGARD: It's in here, one of these parking places right in this area. And then George Hyatte's wife, Jennifer, was parked in her car right next to the van, right down in front of it.
COSBY: And that was the SUV, right?
HAGGARD: That was the—yes, the SUV. So when George Hyatte is about to be loaded into the van, they said he yelled out to fire, Open fire, shoot, or whatever he told the wife. So she's ready and she opened fire on the two officers, struck one, dropped him instantly. And the other one returned fire, and it struck her vehicle, and we believe she's been struck, too, from the amount of blood that's in her vehicle. So Hyatte runs over, gets in the car with his wife. And then they circle the parking lot and go out—exit on Third Street and head down Third Street.
COSBY: When you see this here, Sheriff, it's pretty incredible to look at the distance between where she's parked to where the van is. I mean, you're talking just a few feet.
COSBY: So she had a clear view of the officers.
HAGGARD: And she was watching for them and prepared to kill both of them.
COSBY: And killed one of them, unfortunately.
HAGGARD: She did.
COSBY: Do you believe he had help?
HAGGARD: Somewhere along the line, you would think someone had to unshackle him, if he's free.
COSBY: Do you believe there's anything that the officers could have done? I mean, a lot of people now are saying, How could this happen?
HAGGARD: Well, it's happened other places. And of course, it happened here. But I don't know of a thing these officers could have done. I think they were going according to their policies, procedures and their training. And you're just totally surprised, it's an ambush, you just react the best you can.
COSBY: And we're joined now by a courthouse insider, attorney Chris Cawood, who saw George and also his wife, Jennifer, just moments before the shooting took place. Mr. Cawood, first, I got to ask you, you've been in this courthouse. Security—how much does it exist?
CHRIS CAWOOD, EYEWITNESS: We have good security, as far as getting in and out of the courthouse. The only lapse, in looking back at it in hindsight, would be the discharge and picking up of inmates and prisoners.
COSBY: Yes, that clearly seems like a vulnerable area. You saw George and Jennifer Hyatte just minutes before he went into the courtroom. You were there in that witness room. What did you see?
CAWOOD: They were in the conference room, the jury room. And I was looking for someone else. I walked down the hallway, stuck my head in the door, and they were almost nose to nose, speaking, I thought almost kissing, but in hindsight, they were whispering.
COSBY: Possibly relaying what was to come?
CAWOOD: I would say where her car was, where he's parked and the final details.
COSBY: Now, you actually saw the shooting outside the window, which we just showed a little bit ago on television. What did it look like?
CAWOOD: Well, I didn't actually see the shooting, but I was there about five seconds afterward. People were running, hitting the pavement, pointing toward where the vehicle was exiting the parking area. And we couldn't hear the gunshots up in the courtroom, but when I saw the chaos, I mentioned to the court officer, There's been a shooting out there. And then it was total chaos. The security officer from the courthouse was the first one probably on the scene.
COSBY: Now, you believe that there may have been somebody else involved. How so?
CAWOOD: Well, I thought I saw somebody else in the courtroom, but I can't say absolutely for sure. But I saw Ms. Hyatte leave the courtroom hurriedly. But my attention more was focused on what was coming up than what she was doing.
COSBY: All right, Chris Cawood, thank you very much for your perspective. I very much appreciate it.
Of course, a lot of people are following this case very, very closely. We just showed you that videotaped experience, where we actually walked through the courtroom. And I want to bring with me the man who was walking with me there, Roane County Sheriff David Haggard. Sheriff, first of all, are we going to get this guy? You had a sense of confidence this afternoon. Is it still there?
HAGGARD: It's still there, and I feel that he will be caught. And both of them will be caught. Officers are working 24 hours a day and following a lot of leads. And I feel very confident that they're going to be caught.
COSBY: Obviously, this is a big—Erlanger, Kentucky, just a few hours ago, when you guys came out, made the big announcement that the van was found. Do you have any connection at all with him and Erlanger, Kentucky?
HAGGARD: No, it's just a route that he was traveling and going north. He had to go up—the quickest route would have been go up I-40 east to Knoxville, pick up I-75 north. And of course, Erlanger, Kentucky, is the last city you go through in Kentucky before entering the Cincinnati area.
COSBY: What do you think is the biggest clue so far, in terms of tracking him down? I understand maybe some credit card receipts or some other mechanisms that led you guys to Kentucky.
HAGGARD: Well, no, the authorities in Kentucky found the van, and I don't know how their information come to them. It's been publicized so well that it's a good possibility that all the stories through the news media may have prompted somebody to call in on the van.
COSBY: Well, let's hope so.
HAGGARD: I hope so.
COSBY: Let's hope we're doing our job.
HAGGARD: I appreciate the job you're doing.
COSBY: Thank you, Sheriff.
HAGGARD: And I think that that's going to lead a lot to their capture is the publicity.
COSBY: Absolutely. And of course, I hope that he was watching the interview tonight with his brother and also the son and daughter, of course, of Officer Morgan.
COSBY: Thank you, Sheriff, for your good work. We appreciate it.
And of course, as the sheriff was pointing out, we hope all of you at home, if you have any details at all, if anyone is watching tonight, please, if you have more information on the shooting or know the whereabouts of this couple, if you're in Kentucky, if you're in Erlanger, if you're near the Econolodge, saw anything suspicious, authorities are desperately asking for your help. Please call the hotline which has been set up by the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation. It is 1-800-TBI-FIND. That is 1-800-TBI-FIND.
And there's still a lot more ahead tonight here on LIVE AND DIRECT. Also, my exclusive interview with Nathaniel Brazil. What does he have to say to the family of the teacher that he killed?
And next, the Natalee Holloway investigation. Why is the main suspect in this case using his nine attorneys to get the FBI off the investigation? The latest ahead live from Aruba. We've got a lot more ahead. Stick with us.
ANNOUNCER: From Kingston, Tennessee, here is Rita Cosby.
COSBY: And we continue to watch the developments in the manhunt for George Hyatte and also his wife Jennifer after a deadly jailbreak. Again, anyone at home, if you spot them, if you have any information at all, please be sure to call the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation. That number on the screen, 1-800-TBI-FIND. It is 1-800-TBI-FIND.
Of course, the families desperately want your help, as do law enforcement officials.
Well, we do want to now head down to another location where a big mystery, of course, is taking place, the island of Aruba, where the defense team in the Natalee Holloway case wants the FBI out. And Natalee's mom vows to continue to fight back.
NBC's Michelle Kosinski is live in Palm Beach, Aruba, and she has the very latest from there—Michelle?
MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CORRESPONDENT, NBC NEWS: Hi, Rita.
Another big mystery in this case, at least as it concerns the investigation, is what has been going on in that interrogation room where the key suspect, Joran Van Der Sloot, has been brought nearly every single day to face Dutch interrogations experts?
Well, today, for the first time, we heard a little bit more about what's going on, at least from the point of view of his attorney. And we know he hasn't been talking to investigators. He's been exercising his right to silence, not telling them anything, according to top investigators.
But his attorney has been fighting for weeks to make these interrogations stop. He said, “Hey, everything this kid has to say to police, he's already told them.” He says that these interrogations are unnecessary.
And today, outside of the courtroom, to face the appeals court, his attorney says that the methods they're using now are designed to make him crack, designed, as he put it, to “frustrate” his right to silence. And he says that these methods, which he wouldn't go into detail about, are not only violating his right to silence, he says they're violating his human right.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTONIO CARLOS, JORAN VAN DER SLOOT'S ATTORNEY: We also invoke certain provision of human rights treaty under which our client as a defendant under Aruban law. (INAUDIBLE) remain silent.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KOSINSKI: Another thing you mentioned, Rita, those defense attorneys are also fighting the FBI's involvement in this case. They don't want those files that prosecutors are holding full of evidence and transcripts just opened up, unmasked to the FBI.
Defense attorneys say that's improper, according to the law here, and that it doesn't really fit into the treaty that Holland and Aruba have with the United States. They say we shouldn't just open up these files to a foreign body when this case is a local case, in essence.
That's how they see it. They say this case doesn't have any international implications. The FBI should stay out. Prosecutors though say, hey, we haven't been sharing everything with the FBI, just using their resources as needed.
So we're expecting the judge to make decisions, at least on the FBI issue, on Monday afternoon. Back to you, Rita.
COSBY: All right, Michelle, thank you very much. We appreciate it.
Of course, another big hearing tomorrow involving the gardener, who's also going to provide some information, everybody. And basically, the background on that is that they're going to determine whether or not the gardener can be questioned by the defense, whether his testimony has any credence.
Of course, he saw three people by the pond, three people including Joran Van Der Sloot and the two brothers.
And joining us now—you just saw a shot of Rod Wheeler. He's going to be coming up.
But first, I want to go to Benvinda De Sousa. She is the Holloway family attorney. She's LIVE & DIRECT from Aruba tonight.
Benvinda, I got to get your reaction. First of all, let me ask you about the gardener, because how credible do you believe he is? Do you believe that he's a solid witness?
BENVINDA DE SOUSA, HOLLOWAY FAMILY ATTORNEY: Well, what I understand from the authorities, the investigative authorities here, he's a very credible witness and that he'll provide very valuable information in this case.
COSBY: Now, there was a hearing today, which Michelle was just talking about. Joran Van Der Sloot's team basically saying that the FBI should be cut out of this case, they shouldn't be given access to certain things. Is there any chance that the defense side is going to win on that one?
DE SOUSA: I am confident that they will. They're not using the FBI as a parallel investigation, like the defense attorneys are presenting. They're using the FBI as an investigative tool. And I see no problem in them using the FBI in this manner.
COSBY: So you think it will continue? You don't think they're going to win this battle?
DE SOUSA: I don't think they're going to win this battle. But, then again, it's a three-judge panel now ruling on this. So let's wait and see. But I'm confident.
COSBY: Benvinda, hang on, because I want to bring in Rod Wheeler, if I could now.
Rod, what advice do you have for this family?
ROD WHEELER, FORMER WASHINGTON, D.C., DETECTIVE: Well, I'll tell you, at this point, Rita, it looks as though the authorities down there in Aruba are following up on each and every lead that they're getting. So what I would suggest to the family is just to somewhat hang in there, because it appears as though, for some reason—and this is just what I've read in published reports—that Joran may be at the brink of confessing to something.
That's what it sounds like. And the reporter earlier from MSNBC indicated that that's one of the reasons there's been such a pushback now from Joran's attorney. That can actually be interpreted as a good sign, Rita.
COSBY: Oh, it absolutely could. Benvinda, are you getting indications that he's maybe about to crack?
DE SOUSA: I've not gotten indications that he's about to crack. But I do know that the investigative team brought in from Holland, their experts, that their techniques are based on a system in order to get information from suspects who don't want to cooperate.
And it's perfectly legal. I don't agree with the attorney, Joran's attorney, that it would be in violation of any human rights. It is an interrogation technique and system. And I am confident that, if anybody can crack this case, it could be these investigative experts from Holland.
COSBY: And I agree the focus is getting information out of that guy. Rod, you know, Joran Van Der Sloot, on September 4th, could walk, if they can't find a reason to keep him. That's going to be a big problem if that happens, don't you agree?
WHEELER: That's going to be an extremely big problem, to a degree now. I mean, even if Joran is allowed to walk, so to speak, he's released from being incarcerated, that doesn't mean that the investigation stops.
As a matter of fact, I can pretty much assure you that the law enforcement authorities will tail him, surveil him, watch his every move, and probably try to record some of his comments that he makes to some of the people that he associates with.
Again, I think the Holland authorities are, for some reason or another, utilizing tactics and techniques that we use in murder investigations, Rita, especially the FBI. Definitely see the FBI influence here. And I'm hoping that they're getting closer to somewhat of a confession, or at least finding out what could have happened to Natalee.
COSBY: Let's certainly hope so.
Both of you, thank you very much. And we appreciate it.
And of course, everybody, we're here in Tennessee. Right now, we continue to watch all of the developments in the Tennessee manhunt. Of course, a lot of details.
But up next, what would drive a woman to gun down an officer and risk her life to break out her husband and get him out of jail? Is it love, fear or infatuation? What happened in this case?
And Nathaniel Brazill. My exclusive one-on-one from the prison where the teen killer is spending—get this—almost three decades of his young life. Does he have any regrets?
Don't go anywhere. We've got a blockbuster show, and some more updates live from Kingston, Tennessee.
COSBY: Well, it is one of the most notorious school shootings in U.S. history. A tragic murder, all caught on tape. And it sparked a fierce legal debate over whether juvenile offenders should be tried as adults.
We got exclusive access behind bars to meet the young killer, Nathaniel Brazil, inside his Florida jail.
COSBY (voice-over): May 26, 2000, the last day of school. The seventh-graders at Florida's Lake Worth Middle School were counting down the minutes until the start of a care-free summer. But then, the day took a horrific turn.
DISPATCHER: Lake Worth 911?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, this is Lake Worth Middle School. We have a teacher that's been shot at Lake Worth Middle School.
COSBY: A popular teacher, Barry Grunow, a 35-year-old father of two, gunned down just outside his classroom. The shocking crime, captured by one of the school's surveillance cameras. And the gunman, just 13 years old, Nathaniel Brazill, an honor student who considered Grunow to be one of his favorite teachers. Brazill claimed the murder was a mistake, that he never intended to fire the gun.
NATHANIEL BRAZILL, CONVICTED OF KILLING TEACHER: I didn't try to pull the trigger.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did it go off by itself?
BRAZILL: No, it did not.
COSBY: He was tried as an adult, found guilty of second-degree murder, and sentenced to 28 years. This is Brazill now, five years later, not much taller than he was at age 13. But he told us he's grown up fast in Florida's prison system.
(on-screen): Nate, you have been in prison since you were in seventh grade. What has life been like?
BRAZILL: It's been pretty hard, difficult, not something that I've enjoyed.
COSBY: You've been trying to use your time. You got a GED?
BRAZILL: Yes, I did.
COSBY: You were reading the “New York Times.”
COSBY: You're in choir?
COSBY: How does a guy go from killing someone to choir?
BRAZILL: I think a lot of it had to do with most of the support that I've been—the support and encouragement that I've been receiving over the past five years. So I'm just trying to do what I can to make myself a better person, to be the best person that I can be.
COSBY: You look back now. You know, you came in 13 years old.
You're going to leave 41 years old, if nothing changes with your appeals.
That's a huge portion of your life.
BRAZILL: That's more than—more than half of my life.
COSBY: How do you feel about that?
BRAZILL: It's heartbreaking. It's saddening.
COSBY: May 26, 2000, you get kicked out of school for throwing water balloons.
COSBY: You were mad?
COSBY: Very mad?
BRAZILL: Yes, I was upset, yes, I was.
COSBY: Mad enough to kill?
BRAZILL: I wouldn't say that, no.
COSBY: How did you feel about your teacher, Mr. Grunow?
BRAZILL: I liked him. He was a very nice guy.
COSBY: You liked him a lot, from what I understand?
BRAZILL: Yes, I did. One way that Mr. Grunow was unique in his way was his personality and the way that he got along with the students. He joked around with his students. I would see him playing basketball.
COSBY: So why did you kill him?
BRAZILL: That was an accident.
COSBY: An accident to put a gun to his head, and you shot him?
BRAZILL: It was an accident in that the firing of the gun was unintentional. I never intended to shoot him. I just tried to scare him.
COSBY: What went through your mind when you put the gun to his head and it went off?
BRAZILL: At the time, I didn't know that I had pulled the trigger.
All I know is I heard a big boom and then everything got real quiet.
COSBY: But then when you saw your teacher, this man you loved, lying on the floor...
BRAZILL: I didn't see him until after I was already—because I seen blood. And so that's when I ran.
COSBY: Aren't you just astounded, what you did?
BRAZILL: Yes, I'm very heartbroken about it.
COSBY: What caused you to do this? A normal kid, a good kid doesn't bring a gun in to school.
BRAZILL: Well, there are kids that do carry guns to school. And sometimes, unintentional consequences come about from unintentional actions.
COSBY (voice-over): Even though he was seen wiping away tears at one point during his trial, many felt Brazill showed little remorse then and even now.
(on-screen): A lot of people watching this at home, you know, you say you're sorry, but it seems sort of robotic. And obviously, people express themselves differently. And you don't seem that upset.
BRAZILL: Well, like I said, how am I to react? How am I to show that I'm sad or beyond words? How am I to show it?
COSBY: It's up to you. But I think, if I killed somebody, I'd be very upset.
BRAZILL: You can tell me that you're upset, but how I do see it, if I'm not trying to see it or if it's something that I don't want to see?
COSBY (voice-over): Brazill says someday he want to be a state attorney. And among the 800 other young offenders at his prison, he is nicknamed Johnnie Cochran. But right now, he's focusing his legal efforts on winning an appeal. Unless he succeeds, he will not be released from prison until the year 2028.
(on-screen): When you get out of prison, you're going to be 41 years old. Can you tell us that you're not going to kill someone again?
BRAZILL: Yes, I can.
COSBY: A lot of people say prison makes someone tougher.
BRAZILL: That may be the case, but not with me. No, it isn't.
COSBY: You're sure though?
BRAZILL: I'm 100 percent sure.
COSBY: You haven't been able to write to Mr. Grunow's family because of the court restrictions?
COSBY: If they're watching now, what would you want to say to them?
BRAZILL: The primary thing that I want them to know is that not a day goes by that I don't try to think of a possible way to show them, or maybe to tell them, or communicate to them that I'm sorry. But hopefully, they'll be able to see and they'll be able to watch this and hear me tell them that I'm sorry.
COSBY: And we were not able to reach the teacher's wife, Mrs. Grunow, for an interview. Nate Brazill will heading to an adult prison when he turns 25 years old.
And coming up, we have a lot more ahead. More on the massive manhunt and what clues a fugitive left behind here at the scene.
Plus, what kind of woman falls for an inmate and pulls the trigger in the name of love? We'll go inside the mind of this killer.
And how hard is it to get out of the prison when you're all shackled up? We locked up our producer, Andy Dallas (ph), to find out. Stay with us.
COSBY: We're back, LIVE & DIRECT, from Kingston, Tennessee. What started out as a prison love affair has now become a nationwide murder investigation. Escaped convict George Hyatte is now running—he's running along with his wife, Jennifer.
And tonight, we take a closer look at what drives a woman to take this kind of deadly action to save her man. Forensic psychiatrist Helen Morrison helps us out with this question.
Alan, what kind of a woman goes for a guy like this?
HELEN MORRISON, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: One of the things that—obviously, I don't know her and I haven't examined her—but one of the things we know about women who do become involved with convicts is that they have this sense of taking care of things.
Don't forget, she's a nurse. And she was suspending her own judgment to the point, when she became involved with him, she had to be fired from the correctional system, which is standard procedure. But it also looks as if this woman was in complete and total control of what she was doing. She's...
COSBY: Now, Helen, wait, I got to interrupt you. You believe that she was in total control? You don't believe that she was sort of under his spell? Because he said, “Shoot, shoot, shoot, open fire,” and she did?
MORRISON: Yes, but she had the gun, didn't she?
COSBY: She sure did. And she's going to be the one responsible for it.
MORRISON: She will be. And he will be an accessory, if she lives. If she's been badly wounded, obviously, they're not going to be able to take her to a hospital.
But frankly, I don't think that he would even be concerned about her health status. You know, he has at least 26 years of extensive felony convictions. And he's escaped before.
She could never say to anyone, a jury or a defense attorney, that she was brainwashed by him, or she was afraid of him, or he used violence on her, because there's no evidence of that. In the prison system...
COSBY: Now, Helen, that's a good point. We just got a little bit of time left. I want to make sure I get you to answer this question. Real quickly, because we just got a little bit of time.
If they're watching tonight, how do you negotiate with these people?
MORRISON: OK. You don't.
COSBY: You don't?
MORRISON: First of all, negotiation with someone means that they really feel they have something to save. As far as this individual, George, is concerned, he must feel that there's absolutely nothing.
He would have been in prison at least until 2028 and escaped from that. If he feels that there's no out, he could be involved in something called suicide by cop, allowing himself to get shot and murdered.
Her situation may be a little different. And we don't know if—it seems that she would probably step right in front to take that bullet.
COSBY: No, it sure does. Helen, thank you very much. We appreciate you being with us. Thank you for your perspective.
MORRISON: Thank you.
COSBY: And authorities believe that George Hyatte may have now broken free of his shackles. You heard that from the sheriff earlier and also the folks at the bureau of investigation.
It's a really incredible task to do that. In fact, just a short time ago, my producer and I got a real-life demonstration of what it's like to be restricted on the run.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You've got a set of handcuffs on. And then the black box is a security box that goes over the handcuffs. And you put a link in the waist chain through the security box.
And then a double through. Then he'll place a padlock on top of that to lock the box?
COSBY: Now these are the leg shackles.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Those are leg shackles.
COSBY: How difficult is it to walk when you've got these on?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, you'll notice, when he gets that on, he can take about a one-foot step at a time.
COSBY: How tough is it for someone to get out of this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unless you've got the skills of Houdini or you've got a third party, you're not going to get out of it. See how fast—see you can actually trot with those on, if you just watch what you are doing. But you're very limited in how far you can move your feet.
COSBY: George Hyatte was used to wearing this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Apparently, from the number of times I heard he was transported, he should be used to it.
COSBY: Is it possible, with all of this that he has right here, with the waist shackle, you've got the waist belt, you've got the handcuffs, you've got the leg shackles, is it possible that George Hyatte right now has all of this taken off of him?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's very possible, if he's got someone to help.
COSBY: In your assessment, do you believe they're probably off right now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would just take a guess and say they probably are. He may still be shackled. But more than likely, at this point in time, they're probably off.
COSBY: And coming up, we have an emotional moment that just happened here with the two families at the heart of the jailbreak investigation. It all happened right here on LIVE & DIRECT. We're coming back with an update from Kingston, Tennessee.
COSBY: An update now on the massive manhunt here in Tennessee and also in Kentucky. And it's been an amazing and emotional night right here on LIVE & DIRECT.
The families of suspect George Hyatte and shooting victim Wayne Morgan, together for an emotional appearance. After the interview, family members embraced and shed tears, promising to keep in touch. It was truly an amazing moment. You could just see there was just intense emotions on both sides.
And that does it for me tonight. We're going to see you back tomorrow night on LIVE & DIRECT. And right now, I'm going to pass it on to my buddy, Joe Scarborough. He starts right now with the very latest on the dramatic manhunt.
I know you've got a lot of developments. Take it away, Joe.
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