Guest: Clint Van Zandt, Paul Reynolds, Bill Stanton, Jack Hickey, Graham Bensinger, Bernard Goldberg
JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST: Tonight‘s top headline: An American girl who dated Joran calls the Dutch boy a sweetheart, but an explosive court ruling may formally allow the FBI to nail the Dutch boy as a sociopath. Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY. No passport required, only common sense allowed.
Hey, welcome, and glad you could be with us tonight on the show. Hope you and your family are doing well tonight. We‘re going to bring you now new developments on the honeymoon cruise investigation. That‘s happening tonight. We‘re taking you inside the investigation once again to answer the question, what‘s the latest on the three persons of interest that the FBI is just hammering away on?
Also, the new O.J. Simpson interview. You have got to hear it. It‘s unbelievable, and we‘ll play that for you in a little bit.
But first, late-breaking news in Aruba involving the FBI, the suspects, and a potentially critical witness. Plus, we‘re going to hear from an American girl who lived with Joran Van Der Sloot.
But we‘re beginning live in Aruba tonight with Michelle Kosinski. Of course, she‘s the NBC correspondent who‘s been covering this case from the very beginning.
Michelle, what‘s the latest in Aruba tonight?
MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CORRESPONDENT, NBC NEWS: Hi, Joe. Not a great day for the defense before the appeals court judge today who ruled that the FBI can continue to have access to prosecutor‘s files. And although there hasn‘t been anything official coming from the court system, we‘re hearing from sources that the judge has also ruled that those interrogations day after day of key suspect Joran Van Der Sloot can also continue.
Also, finally a key witness has appeared before a judge to give his testimony. For more than a week, prosecutors have been trying to get this person to come to court in fear that, as an illegal immigrant, he might leave the country.
This is a witness who says he spotted all three suspects together in a car early in the morning Natalee disappeared and after the time the Kalpoe brothers say they were already at home.
Now, interestingly, defense attorneys actually say that that testimony by this witness today may be good for their side. At least one of the attorneys says he feels that this witness didn‘t remember very many clear details about that early morning sighting, according to the witness. And this attorney says that the witness could not pick out Satish Kalpoe from a photo lineup—Joe?
SCARBOROUGH: Michelle, though, it does sound, though, like a big day for the family of Natalee Holloway, obviously, with the FBI allowed to continue the interrogation—or the FBI to be involved in the interrogations to go on.
I‘m sure Natalee‘s mom certainly has to be pleased, as well as the rest of the family. But I understand you spoke with Natalee‘s mother and grandmother today. How are they holding up through this ordeal?
KOSINSKI: It was an emotional interview. This is one of Beth Holloway Twitty‘s greatest forms of support. It‘s her own mother.
They‘re here together finally, at least for a couple of days. And her mother has actually experienced the incredible pain of losing a child. Her 1-year-old son died of encephalitis. They talked a little bit about that. They‘re just a great source of strength for each other, Joe.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANN REYNOLDS, NATALEE‘S GRANDMOTHER: The wisdom that (INAUDIBLE) the pain does go away, but you don‘t ever forget. But it takes a long time. I think she‘s probably stronger than I am, maybe, or I was. I was so young.
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY: And the problem that we‘re having is we just don‘t have the answers yet, Michelle.
A. REYNOLDS: That‘s what‘s terrible.
TWITTY: That is just—you really can‘t begin to go through the...
A. REYNOLDS: Closure.
TWITTY: Yes, until you have some answers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KOSINSKI: Of course, Natalee‘s mother still wants to keep going, pushing this investigation forward as best she can from her side of things. And remember, searchers are still on this island trying to come up with some leads of their own as well.
Joe, back to you.
SCARBOROUGH: Hey, Michelle, thanks a lot. As always, we greatly appreciate it. NBC‘s Michelle Kosinski live tonight, as always, from Aruba.
Now let‘s turn to Clint van Zandt. He‘s a former FBI profiler, also an MSNBC analyst. He‘s searching in Aruba for clues, trying to see if the investigation is finally on track.
And, friends, of course, you know, this investigation was so wildly off-track at the beginning, some people say it‘s starting to move in the right direction, but many others, including myself, say it‘s too little, too late.
Hey, good evening, Clint. Tell me, what have you seen so far down in Aruba?
CLINT VAN ZANDT, FORMER FBI PROFILER: How you doing?
SCARBOROUGH: Doing OK.
VAN ZANDT: Well, I‘ll tell you what, Joe, your words are my words:
Too little too late. I mean, it‘s just like Michelle just reported. The FBI can continue to have access to those files, those records, but you and I know this investigation got off to a tremendously slow start, you know, eight to 10 days afterwards. Joe, I mean, that‘s a terrible hurdle to have to overcome from an investigative standpoint.
And number two, the interviews that I‘ve seen that have been written down from the suspects—I mean, Joe, these are like, “Joe, tell me how your day was. OK, thank you very much.” No penetrating questions whatsoever asked by the investigators.
I mean, I just want to grab those interviews on paper and just shake them and say, “Why didn‘t you ask the follow-up questions?” It just wasn‘t done, Joe. And you know, for me, as an FBI agent for 25 years, they‘ve got so much ground to cover, to catch up on, I just don‘t know that they can do it at this point.
SCARBOROUGH: You know, the thing , it‘s like Keystone Kops, it‘s like people patrolling those little cars that drive around Disneyland. These people are not equipped to carry on interrogations of Van Der Sloot and these two Kalpoe brothers.
But you‘ve actually been walking across the island. And, you know, for Americans like myself that have never been down to Aruba—and there‘s so many of us, millions who have been following this case would have no idea what it‘s like down there—put us on the crime scene. Tell us what it‘s like, talk about the people, talk about their attitude toward the investigation and toward the Holloway family.
VAN ZANDT: Yes. It was interesting. Let‘s start with the people, Joe.
We were out today just getting a feel for the land, getting a feel for where Joran Van Der Sloot said he last left Natalee Holloway. You know, the bottom line, Joe, whether he did anything or not, the bottom line, what‘s his moral responsibility when he says he leaves an 18-year-old, intoxicated girl on a beach at 2:30 by herself?
You know, if that‘s not criminal, it‘s stupid and immoral, to begin with. And that took place just behind us, Joe. As you look behind me right now, the beach right behind me and as it goes off to my left, this is the beach where he allegedly left her. It goes on up about two miles to the lighthouse where supposedly the three boys took Natalee up. She wanted to see this for the last night.
And you know, this is the scene of so many different finds. You know, we found mattresses, we found underground barrels, we found every conceivable piece—what about, you know, the duct tape with blonde hair on it?
You know, these are things that everyone gets up and then everybody comes back down again. Where is the level investigation that says, “Let‘s not lose our cool. Let‘s just continue to just pound away, pound away, pound away until we solve this case”?
Joe, I just haven‘t seen that take place. And as I look at this island, as I look at the various potential crime scenes that were done, I mean, the searches were done halfway, the investigation was done halfway. I mean, if this was a train to L.A. from New York, Joe, we haven‘t got close to Chicago yet.
SCARBOROUGH: I got to ask you a couple quick tough questions, and then we‘re going to come back to you in a little bit. There‘s a story of a forearm washing up on a beach in Venezuela. Of course, some people believe it could possibly be Natalee‘s.
But I‘ve just got to ask you. It‘s been a month and a half now. You‘re in a tropical climate. Would not an arm—or if Natalee were killed a month and a half ago, wouldn‘t it—I‘ve got to be blunt here. I‘m not going to say the evidence. Wouldn‘t the body be completely decomposed by now?
VAN ZANDT: Well, I‘ve got to believe so, Joe. I‘ve got to believe—you know, the idea that a bone from the forearm—or if we take this part of my arm and say this is the bone, that this bone would have found its way, the 18 or 20 miles from Aruba to Venezuela—I mean, you know, anything is possible.
She may have gotten kidnapped by Martians. That‘s possible. But the reality is, no.
You know, when you‘ve got a case like this, Joe—you know, as an investigator for a quarter of a century myself—if you don‘t have anything else going, you got to take what there is there.
And in this particular case, we‘re taking duct tape, we‘re taking underwater barrels, we‘re taking bloody mattresses. I mean, they are grasping for not straws, but pieces of straws. But you know, you‘re a parent, just like I am.
You know, I‘m a parent, I‘m a grandparent. And if that were my child, I tell you what, I would grasp for any straw I could.
SCARBOROUGH: You‘d do anything. And finally, I want to ask you, again, another tough question, or actually more of a tough statement, I have yet to talk to somebody that didn‘t say that these three boys—one of the three killed her, got rid of her, they all three know where she is tonight.
Everybody I‘ve talked to, everybody agrees on that. Now, Clint, if you‘re running the FBI investigation, you have all the power in the world to get the truth. And you know that these three punks know the truth. How do you get the truth out of them?
VAN ZANDT: Well, you know, Joe, short now from taking them out and burying them in the landfill up to their neck and telling them we‘re not going to dig them up until they tell us the truth, I‘m not sure now that we‘re going to get the truth out of them.
SCARBOROUGH: I‘m afraid of that also, Clint. Hey, Clint, stand by.
I want to bring right now in, though, Paul Reynolds. He‘s, of course, Natalee‘s uncle.
Paul, a lot of bad news through the past six weeks or so, but good news today in court. The FBI can stay involved. The interrogations of Joran can continue. What‘s your response to today‘s developments in Aruba?
PAUL REYNOLDS, NATALEE HOLLOWAY‘S UNCLE: Well, we‘re very glad the FBI is going to continue to be involved. You know, they bring a lot of expertise. They can be of great assistance to the Aruban authorities. And, you know, we‘re pleased to have the official ruling that allows them to continue.
SCARBOROUGH: Talk about what Clint said. He‘s afraid that, because of all the missteps early on, that this investigation is never going to find out the truth about Natalee, and that these three punk kids are going to be able to walk because they haven‘t been interrogated the proper way.
Have you given up hope, or do you and the family still believe that justice can be discovered in this case?
REYNOLDS: We‘re convinced that justice will be discovered. We understand the difficulties, the problems that we had in the very beginning, and, you know, all the concerns that we‘ve talked about over the last few weeks.
But, you know, we‘re determined. And, you know, we‘re going to stay involved. And, you know, we are seeing an increase in the effort. People are continuing to come forward. We‘re convinced, we‘re certain, that, you know, the truth will come out and there will be justice.
SCARBOROUGH: You know, I talked to John Walsh earlier today and was talking about Natalee‘s case. He shares your anger. He says it reminds him a lot of how he felt when his son disappeared and how the Hollywood investigators botched that case.
But he said you get to a point where you know that your child is dead, you just want to recover the body and bury your child so there can be some sort of closure. You‘ll never get complete closure, but some sort of closure.
Are you and the rest of the family, your sister, everybody else, to a point where you‘re afraid that one of these three boys may have killed Natalee and now you just want to bring her home?
REYNOLDS: Well, Joe, we can‘t give up hope. We still have to have hope until we‘re shown that Natalee is not alive. But...
SCARBOROUGH: So you believe, Paul, though, you believe tonight that she could still be alive?
REYNOLDS: You know, it‘s certainly possible, you know, no trace has been found. It‘s not something we can give up on until we‘re just absolutely shown otherwise.
That‘s not to say we‘re not realistic. We understand the possible consequences. And, certainly, we‘re looking into those consequences, but you just can‘t give up hope yet.
SCARBOROUGH: Well, you look at these pictures of her, too, these videos. She looks like such a sweet girl. And of course, the tragedy is that right now she would be packed up and be on her way to the college I went to, University of Alabama, to start her freshman year there and to start her life.
And it just makes you so angry looking at what‘s going on in Aruba.
And you just want to get a hold of those three guys and shake them.
Paul, stay with us. I want to talk to you more about Natalee, more about the investigation, and more about Joran, because, when we come back, my colleague, Dan Abrams, got to sit down with an American girl who actually dated Joran Van Der Sloot and invited him to come visit her in America. What‘s the Dutch boy really like? Well, you‘re going to find out next, straight from her.
And later, O.J. Simpson has an opinion on the Natalee Holloway case. And that‘s just part of what he talked about in an interview with an 18-year-old budding journalist. We‘re going to have that very strange interview for you, and the kid who scored the exclusive.
Hey, we‘ve got a big night here in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY. And we‘re just getting started. So stick around.
SCARBOROUGH: An American girl meets a Dutch boy named Joran Van Der Sloot on a trip to Aruba. She actually invites him to come stay with her family in Jersey where the two become close friends. So what does the American girl who dated the Dutch boy have to say about him?
Earlier tonight, my colleague, Dan Abrams, sat down with the New Jersey teenager, Shelby Cadmus, to talk about the three weeks in which she spent with Joran Van Der Sloot, now the prime suspect in Natalee Holloway‘s disappearance.
SHELBY CADMUS, DATED JORAN VAN DER SLOOT: I was just hanging out by the pool with one of my friends who I came to Aruba with. And I saw Joran hanging around the Marriott with a group of his friends, as well. And we were both looking at each other, you know, girl-guy flirtation, eye contact.
We both sort of approached each other at the same time. We started talking. We both had the same interests, soccer, music and everything. So we just hung out pretty much every day by the pool and played “monkey in the middle” in the pool, normal kid stuff.
Once I got home, we e-mailed and everything. I was very infatuated by him. And he‘s a very romantic guy. I mean, he had a list of top 10 things he wanted to do in his life and number one was sit under the stars with the one I love.
That‘s just the kind of guy he was. He‘s a normal, teenage guy who just is living a normal teenage life.
DAN ABRAMS, HOST, “THE ABRAMS REPORT”: Did you ever see any violence on the part of Joran?
CADMUS None. None at all.
ABRAMS: Did you ever see him drunk?
CADMUS: Yes, actually I have.
CADMUS: Not violent at all.
ABRAMS: What did he—I mean, was he...
CADMUS: A goofy, fun, funny drunk.
ABRAMS: He wasn‘t one of these people—and there‘s some people, when they drink a lot, they really come to be different people than they were sober.
CADMUS: Not at all, because I know people who do become different people when they‘re drunk. And Joran‘s not one of them.
ABRAMS: Did you ever have anyone, you or anyone you know, who saw Joran, if he‘d been rejected, for example? Was there temper on him, et cetera?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You rejected him at some point, didn‘t you? He was fine.
ABRAMS: Tell me about that.
CADMUS: Times where he would—I wouldn‘t be as attracted to him and the more I—he was with me for three weeks, so, obviously, you know, you start fighting and just minor fights. Oh, “You left your cereal bowl on the table. You have to clean up after yourself,” just minor fights.
Obviously, we‘d become frustrated with each other, living with each other for three weeks, and no violence, no anger at all, just very calm and subdued. Towards the end of the week, I wasn‘t—end of the three weeks, I wasn‘t interested in him in a romantic way, more of just friends. And we got to know each other more over the three weeks, and I saw him as a friend.
ABRAMS: How did he react to that? How did he react to that?
CADMUS: I think he felt the same way about me. I mean, I know him. It‘s so weird for me, because, why would he do anything when—I mean, he‘s the kind of guy, he could—he‘s a good-looking kid. He could have girls approach him easily. There‘s no use for him—he doesn‘t have to do anything to get a girl. He just has to be himself.
ABRAMS: How do you picture what it‘s like for him behind bars right now?
CADMUS: I picture him being brave, and strong, and trying to live through it, doing the best he can.
SCARBOROUGH: Clint van Zandt, Joran says he just wants to sit under the stars, quote, “with the one I love.” Could a sweetheart like that actually be a sociopath?
VAN ZANDT: No, Joe, I think he‘s a hell of a guy.
It‘s the guy—I would love him to date my daughter or granddaughter, you know?
VAN ZANDT: No, I mean, you‘re absolutely right. I mean, the guy could absolutely be a sociopath. And even by his comments like that, you know—maybe there‘s part of me that says, how could a 17-year-old kid be so successful and make all this work? And part of it is that the guy is a manipulator.
SCARBOROUGH: Oh, no doubt about it.
VAN ZANDT: He handles people. He knows how to manipulate them, and he knows how to get his own way. The question is, when he doesn‘t get his own way exactly the way he wants to, what are his anger management and his conflict resolution skills? And that‘s the challenging thing in this case.
SCARBOROUGH: That‘s important. Hey, Paul Reynolds, I want to bring you in here. Because again, I‘ve talked to teenagers who were actually at Carlos and Charlie‘s the night that Natalee disappeared.
They said when she was there that he actually approached her a couple times, she pushed him away, she rebuffed him. And what do you think, when you‘re hearing this American girl, who has to know that Joran was responsible—or he and one of his other friends responsible for the disappearance of Natalee, and she‘s sitting here talking about what a great sweetheart this guy is?
REYNOLDS: Well, you know, denial can be a strong emotion. You know, possibly she had a good experience with him. And you know, he did well in school. He had a scholarship, you know, a respected family. Things shouldn‘t be the way they are, but something obviously happened.
He was one of the last ones seen with her, multiple stories, multiple lies about what happened. Yet, we know he knows what happened. We suspect something went wrong, and we‘ve just got to get those answers from him.
SCARBOROUGH: You know, Clint, a lot of times sociopaths are very manipulative. As you know, people like Ted Bundy, able to sweet talk women, put them in vulnerable positions, and then kill them.
Talk about that. Talk about how somehow—and, again, you‘re an FBI profiler—sometimes the smoothest talkers are the people who are the most dangerous.
VAN ZANDT: Well, you know, you look at who‘s coming up for sentencing this week. I mean, we‘ve got the BTK killer, Dennis Rader, in Wichita, one of the more prolific and successful serial killers in the United States in a long time.
And you talk about a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, I mean, this is a guy who went out and committed some of the most brutal murders you could ever think about. Then he re-victimized his victims when he was in court and went into great detail while the family members were there, telling them what he did to their loved ones.
And yet, at the same time, Joe, this is a guy who was the president of his church, he was a father, he was a husband, he was a community leader. I mean, you know, when you get these two different types of personalities moving, and if you can get them in sync, you can be very successful on both the dark side and the light side.
Dennis Rader did it. And as far as I‘m concerned, our suspects in this case did it, also.
SCARBOROUGH: Paul Reynolds, what do you want Americans to know about Joran Van Der Sloot and his father?
REYNOLDS: Well, they know what happened that night. We believe they both know. We believe they both have been involved in a cover-up.
You know, it‘s a tragedy. It‘s a tragedy for our family and their family. But something happened that they know about. The Kalpoe brothers are aware of it. We think they‘re all involved.
And, you know, we‘ve got to get to that truth. And, you know, I‘d like to ask the father again to help his son come forward with the truth and help him have a chance to continue with his life and not help him ruin it by continuing this lie.
SCARBOROUGH: All right, Paul Reynolds, as always, thank you for being with us.
Clint van Zandt, thanks a lot. Obviously, you‘re going to be down in Aruba all week. We‘re going to be following up with you every day to get the latest on your investigation into Natalee‘s disappearance.
Coming up next, we have new information in the case of missing groom George Smith. As always, we go inside the investigation and tell you things that nobody else is telling you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
O.J. SIMPSON, FORMER FOOTBALL STAR: I would love to do that. Now, that‘s something I really would want to (INAUDIBLE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCARBOROUGH: O.J. Simpson talks about what he‘d like to do next—and you‘re not going to believe this—when the Juice gives an exclusive interview to a teenage radio host. That interview and the kid who scored it, coming up in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.
SCARBOROUGH: Coming up next, Pamela Anderson roasted and toasted in a dress that boasted some of her better assets. Plus, Bernie Goldberg, O.J. Simpson, the Mediterranean murder mystery, and a partridge in a pear tree.
But first, here‘s the latest news that you and your family need to know.
MILISSA REHBERGER, MSNBC ANCHOR: Hi there, everyone. I‘m Milissa Rehberger. Here‘s what‘s happening.
A military plane with 25 people on board landed safely in Virginia tonight after circling the naval station for two hours because its landing gear would not deploy. The plane had to dump all of its fuel before dropping a tail hook and snagging a cable on the runway.
The Bush administration is applauding the efforts of the Iraqi parliament, despite its failure to meet today‘s deadline to determine the country‘s new constitution. The politicians are asking for a week-long extension.
Many Israeli settlers spent their day packing to vacate their homes in the Gaza Strip. Some tried to block troops from delivering eviction notices. After midnight Tuesday, troops will begin removing remaining settlers by force.
And former President Bill Clinton and Illinois Senator Barack Obama joined hundreds of mourners today at the funeral of pioneering publisher, John Johnson. Johnson was the founder of “Ebony” and “Jet” magazines. He died last week of heart failure at 87.
Back to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.
SCARBOROUGH: O.J. Simpson sits down to talk about why he‘ll never pay up, never! But wait, he also weighs in on Scott Peterson, in a possible new career direction. Wait until you hear this one. You‘re not going to believe it.
Plus, bad Paris Hilton is not on the list, but two people very close to her are.
And too hot for TV, almost. Pamela Anderson gets roasted and toasted, and we‘ve got the show that shows you who is leading the charge. Welcome back to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY. All those stories straight ahead in just a few minutes.
But first, we have the latest in the disappearance of missing honeymooner George Smith IV. Tonight, we‘ve learned the FBI is turning up the heat on three persons of interest from that ship that night.
Remember, these three persons of interest are the two Russians from New York and the one teenager from California. Now, their attorneys say their clients are completely cooperating. And tomorrow night, for the first time, we are going to talk live to the attorney for the teenager from California who, I got to tell you, friends, everybody is saying is the key to breaking this case wide open. We‘ll talk to his attorney and see if that‘s the case or if it‘s just hype.
As we‘ve also reported, our international investigation uncovered the fact that Turkish prosecutors questioned several crew members from that ship and that the Turkish prosecutors believed they could have had something to do with Smith‘s disappearance and possible murder.
Tonight, we look at the critical unanswered questions still remaining in this case. Where was Jen Hagel when her husband disappeared that morning? Was she in the cabin or was she asleep somewhere else?
Also, who saw George Smith last? Three or four crew members, as the Turkish investigation turned up, or these three persons of interest that the FBI has seemed to focus on?
Now, if you were on that cruise, SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY wants to hear from you. I want to hear from you. Send me your comments. Send me your questions. And, listen, if you want to remain anonymous, if you have information we need to know, like all these other people, people that have come forward on SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, email me at Joe@MSNBC.com.
Now, here to talk about the case, we‘ve got former NYPD officer and private investigator Bill Stanton, and we also have maritime attorney Jack Hickey. I‘ve got to tell you, Jack, he‘s been there, he knows how it works.
Let‘s start with you, Bill Stanton. I want you to go inside the investigation right now. We‘ve got two different lines of suspects developing here. You talked to our Turkish investigators, they say they‘re focusing on the three or four crew members who were last seen dropping George Smith off in his room at about 2:33 in the morning.
And then you‘ve got the FBI that‘s looking at the two Russians and this California teen. Where do you go? How do you break them down to talk? How do you get to the bottom of what happened to George on the night of his honeymoon cruise?
BILL STANTON, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Bunch of questions, which even gives me more questions, Joe. I got to tell you, I feel like Colombo. I‘m very confused, at least right now. I mean, I‘m looking at the information you‘re getting exclusive, and it‘s just giving me more questions.
These crew members, did they bring them back or was it the two Russians and the one teenager? Did the guy leave? Did someone else bring him back?
The passenger that actually heard arguing in the room—you know, I have to ask the question, how many voices were in the room? Was he on the phone? Was he looking for his wife?
And it‘s interesting to see, Joe, when Jen, the wife, where you see the Natalee Holloway case, where you see the family members like on TV, impassioned asking for answers, you know, where is Mr. Smith‘s wife in this investigation? We haven‘t heard a word yet.
SCARBOROUGH: Haven‘t heard from her, haven‘t heard from her family, haven‘t heard from George Smith IV‘s family. That‘s why there‘s so many questions out there right now.
I want to go to you for a second, Jack Hickey, to talk about how the cruise line‘s handled this. Our Turkish investigator exclusive to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY also discovered that the Turkish investigators were angry, very frustrated.
They were allowed on the ship, but they tell our guy they weren‘t given enough time to ask the right questions, to check out the crime scene, to get to the bottom of this, because the ship steamed off in another direction before they could finish their investigation. They were rushed off the ship and told, “No more investigations today.”
Tell me, is that the way cruise lines usually handle these type of situations?
JACK HICKEY, MARITIME ATTORNEY: Well, thank you, Joe. I think so. This is absolutely par for the course for the cruise lines that want to control everything. They control their world.
They‘re on an internationally flagged vessel. In the case of Royal Caribbean, a vessel which is flagged either in Norway, or the Bahamas, or Liberia, and they control everything. And what people have to know is that, on these cruise ships, there‘s very little law enforcement, very little medical care, very little of anything that you are used to and you think that would be provided...
SCARBOROUGH: Hey, Jack, I hate to interrupt you. I‘ve got to ask you this question, though. Maybe it‘s the former congressman in me that makes me ask the question: Why can‘t Congress require that if you were going to take American passengers predominantly from an American port on a cruise, obviously, the Caribbean and some other places, why can‘t you demand that those ships be flagged in the United States of America, so the FBI can have complete control in these investigations?
HICKEY: Well, Joe, you‘ve asked a very good question, which is not going to be pushed in Congress, I don‘t think, anytime soon. The answer is they don‘t want to be flagged in the United States because then they‘ll be subject to U.S. taxation. And that‘s what it comes down to. Of course, secondarily, they‘re going to be subject to all of the regulations in the United States.
So that‘s a huge, huge door that they cannot—they don‘t want to walk through. And in fact, the reason why they have maintained their international status for so long, one reason, is that they do have lobbyists in Congress. And, in fact, on your show...
HICKEY: Yes. On August 4th, on your show, you interviewed Michael Crye, the president of the International Council of Cruise Lines based out of Washington, D.C., even though there are no cruise lines based in Washington, that said that Royal Caribbean‘s highest priority is to bring this to closure and provide answers. And you talked about...
SCARBOROUGH: It always does seem, from talking to you, Jack, and other people who know how this industry works, it seems that so many people are cynical about the industry, and say that is the goal, is just to bring them to closure.
Jack, thank you for being with us. Bill Stanton, as always. Appreciate you being here. We‘re going to ask you all to come back later this week. Sorry we couldn‘t have you longer tonight, a totally packed show.
Coming up, we‘re going to be talking to Bernie Goldberg. He‘s from Miami. And his book is send being shockwaves through the American left and right. It‘s coming up next, Bernie Goldberg, back in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY to talk about the 100 people who are screwing up America. By the way, number 37, Al Franken.
And also, O.J. Simpson sits down for a one-on-one interview with an 18-year-old kid. We‘ve got that interview for you, including his unbelievable career goal. I‘m not talking about the kid; I‘m talking about O.J. Simpson, Juice!
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ANNA NICOLE SMITH, FORMER MODEL: If I ever record an album, I want this guy to produce mine. Make me a beautiful duet, because he‘s freaking king!
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SCARBOROUGH: Sounds like my first speech on the floor of Congress back in ‘95. But that was actually Anna Nicole Smith at last year‘s American Music Awards.
Now, what does she have in common with Ted Kennedy? Well, they‘re just two of the people listed in Bernie Goldberg‘s best-selling new book, “100 People Who are Screwing up America.” And Al Franken in number 37.
Bernie, thanks a lot for being with us again in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY. Greatly appreciate it.
BERNARD GOLDBERG, AUTHOR, “100 PEOPLE WHO ARE SECREWING UP AMERICA”: My pleasure, Joe.
SCARBOROUGH: I just got to ask you, what‘s the common thread between Cameron Diaz, Ted Kennedy, Michael Savage, and the publisher of “The New York Times”?
GOLDBERG: In their own way, they‘re all screwing up America. Teddy Kennedy, for instance, isn‘t on the list because he‘s a liberal Democrat. I don‘t care what his politics are.
You have to rise to a certain level of indecency to get on the list. And when he tried to wreck the reputation of Judge Bork, saying that, if Bork were elevated to the Supreme Court, women would resort to back-alley abortions, black people would have to eat at separate lunch counters, and rogue cops would break down our doors, you don‘t believe that, Joe, I don‘t believe that, and most importantly, Teddy Kennedy doesn‘t believe that.
But he was willing to wreck a man‘s reputation because he didn‘t want another conservative on the bench. And I can‘t wait to see what happens with Judge Roberts now.
SCARBOROUGH: All right, Bernie, let me stop you there, because, obviously, a lot of people out there are saying Bernie Goldberg‘s a right-winger. But you go after Michael Savage. Why do you go after Michael Savage?
GOLDBERG: Yes, well, first of all, I‘m not a right-winger. I consider myself an old-fashioned liberal. I‘m a liberal the way liberals used to be when they looked up to JFK and before they started looking up to Michael Moore.
But Michael Savage is on the list. He‘s a conservative radio talk show host with a big, loyal following. Trust me. I‘ve heard from every one of his followers by this point.
And if I‘m going to write—the main theme of the book, Joe, is that the culture has gotten too angry, and too nasty, and too vulgar. Well, if I care how angry and nasty the culture has gotten, I can‘t ignore somebody like Michael Savage.
It isn‘t his politics. I probably agree with him on a whole bunch of things, probably on taxes, and immigration, and things like that. That‘s not why he‘s on the list. But if you disagree with him, you‘re either a moron or a stupid idiot. And that just cheapens the conversation. That‘s why he‘s on the list.
And seriously, I think I‘ve heard from every one of his loyal supporters. They‘re not happy with me.
SCARBOROUGH: I wouldn‘t think they would be. Let‘s talk about Paris Hilton. I find Paris Hilton fascinating, because you can talk about how Paris is helping in the coarsening of American culture, and yet Paris sells. Why does Paris sell? Because that‘s what Americans want to see, right?
GOLDBERG: Oh, absolutely. And Paris is not on the list, but number 100 on the list, even though there aren‘t two people in the whole country, Joe, that will agree with all the names on the list, number 100 I think everybody has to agree with.
I don‘t care if you‘re a liberal, or a conservative, or a Democrat, or a Republican, number 100 are the worst parents in the United States of America, in my humble opinion, Rick and Kathy Hilton. I mean, if they gave out Nobel prizes for the worst parents, these two would be on the way to Stockholm right now to pick up their medal.
I mean, Paris Hilton, I mean, it‘s one thing to love your daughter, but Paris Hilton, to say you‘re proud of that woman? Sorry.
SCARBOROUGH: Yes, it seems like they‘re reveling in all of Paris‘ bad exploits. I want to ask you about your reaction—the reception that you‘ve received since writing this book.
SCARBOROUGH: Obviously, when “Biased” first came out, you were shut out of so many interviews. And it seems a couple of places you‘ve gone, whether it‘s “The Daily Show” or whether it‘s the CNBC show, you got absolutely hammered by hosts that just didn‘t appreciate what you were saying about these 100 people. Talk about it.
GOLDBERG: Unsuccessfully, unsuccessfully hammered, Joe. There‘s an incredible disconnect out there in America about the reaction to this book. And it‘s a disconnect that you see in a lot of things involving regular, ordinary Americans on the one hand and the cultural elites on the other.
SCARBOROUGH: Peter Jennings passes away. A lot of people are saying that‘s the end of evening news. What‘s your take?
GOLDBERG: Well, terrible tragedy and sadness that a man that young would pass away, but I think the evening news has been on a downward spiral for a long, long time. They‘re less relevant this year than they were last year, and they‘ll be even less relevant next year than they are this year.
The evening news—the idea that you have to be someplace at a certain time to watch the news is an idea whose time has come and gone. You can get the news now on MSNBC at any time of the day or night and several other places. You don‘t need a half-hour newscast that you must be there or you miss it. It‘s an idea that‘s past.
SCARBOROUGH: No doubt about it. Bernie Goldberg, thank you so much.
Greatly appreciate you being with us tonight.
GOLDBERG: Thank you, Joe.
SCARBOROUGH: Coming up next, O.J. Simpson sounds off. You‘re going to hear him talking about everything from Scott Peterson to Natalee Holloway.
And also up next, we got the interview and the 18-year-old who scored the big get. Also, Pam Anderson gets roasted and toasted. Now, we can‘t show you her outfit on this show, but we can dig up some great moments from the Comedy Central special.
SCARBOROUGH: Number 32, the Juice, O.J. Simpson. Well, it‘s hard to believe, but this October marks 10 years since the jury acquitted him of killing his ex-wife and her friend. Simpson gave a rare interview to ESPN Radio‘s Graham Bensinger. Watch this.
GRAHAM BENSINGER, WWW.THEGBSHOW.COM: I wanted to ask you about two of the recent trials, the first of which being Scott Peterson. What were your thoughts on the outcome of the case?
O.J. SIMPSON, FORMER FOOTBALL STAR: Well, I thought if Scott Peterson you know, what I thought, if he did it or not is immaterial. I didn‘t think they had the facts for him to get the testimony. I thought he was such a disagreeable person and talked so much that I felt that his death penalty came more out of his personality than the actual facts that they had.
There‘s so many people who are convicted of murder and have not gotten the death penalty. And certainly, I didn‘t think the facts were so overwhelming that he should have got the death penalty. Do I think he was guilty? Probably, yes. But I didn‘t think the evidence in the case warranted him getting the death penalty, but...
BENSINGER: I wanted to ask you about the second case, the Michael Jackson trial. What were your thoughts on the outcome of that?
SIMPSON: Well, I know Michael. And I never saw that side of Michael. My family has spent a lot of time at Neverland. Most of the time Mike was not there, but he had opened up Neverland for my family, my kids‘ birthdays and things, back in the ‘70s.
I talked to his brother a lot, sent him a couple of messages. And then, of course, at Johnnie‘s funeral, we had a few words. But he was just telling me to stay strong, and to say a prayer for him and stay strong, and, you know, everything works out.
BENSINGER: How is he doing?
SIMPSON: He seemed to be doing well. I haven‘t talked to him since, but his brother says he is doing well. You know, Michael is a frail guy to begin with. I think health-wise it took a toll on him. And hopefully, he‘ll—you know, he‘s getting well now, and we“ see him entertaining soon.
BENSINGER: Celebrities, is it possible for them to have a fair trial?
SIMPSON: Yes. You know, I think celebrity by—true celebrity, you know, or celebrity by money, you know, rich people, I think the way our system has gotten is they are maybe the only ones who can afford to have a fair trial. You cannot tell me that the average guy that grew up where I grew up have fair trials. So I think money—you need money to get justice in this country.
SCARBOROUGH: Fascinating. Graham Bensinger is now with us.
Graham, you know, this guy talked so knowledgeably about all of these cases. Were you surprised by that or anything else in the interview?
BENSINGER: No, not at all, in terms of him talking knowledgeably about the cases. I mean, let‘s face it. O.J. has gone through the most media-scrutinized trial in our nation‘s history. And because of that, I think he has this continual interest in trials.
He also is virtually addicted—I think it would be fair to say—to the cable news programs, Court TV, in particular. And as a result of that, you know, he‘s extremely cognizant of what transpires in both the news and the sports world.
I was surprised by, as I alluded to in my ESPN.com article, by the way the public receives him. You know, you continually hear O.J. say people are so supportive of him. They constantly come up and ask him how he is doing, and how his kids are, and this and that.
And it‘s true. It‘s unequivocally true. And it amazed me, because I thought there were questionable remarks initially. But in spending time with him the night before the interview, the day of, and then following the interview, people come up to him, in walking around with him in public, they‘ll extend a hand, ask how he‘s doing, ask how the kids are.And as one of his friends told me, maybe one out of every 200 times he goes out does someone make a negative remark. But, Joe, that‘s not to say you know, as I talked with O.J. recently about over the phone on Friday.
We spoke for about 45 minutes—that‘s not to say that, when the people approach him, and, you know, ask for a picture or, you know, receptive or whatnot, that‘s not to say they think he‘s innocent.
But look, I don‘t think it matters, whether it be Dan Marino or Ted Bundy walking down the street, someone‘s going to come up and ask him to take a picture with him.
SCARBOROUGH: All right, Graham. Thank you so much. A fascinating interview. We appreciate it. And I don‘t get to say this to a lot of guests who break big interviews, but good luck in your freshman year in college this fall.
BENSINGER: Thanks, Joe. My pleasure.
SCARBOROUGH: All right, thanks a lot.
It‘s interesting, friends. Here‘s a guy again, was eight years old when the trial went on. I mean, when I was eight years old, I had posters of O.J. up in my room.
Coming up next, a look at the Comedy Central roast of Pamela Anderson, at least part of the roast we can show you.
SCARBOROUGH: Last night, Comedy Central aired a roast of Pamela Anderson and also had SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY guest Tommy Lee there. And it seems Lee got a chance to abuse her once again, but this time it was with jokes. Happy ending there, though: $200,000 donated to Pamela‘s favorite charity, PETA.
“THE SITUATION WITH TUCKER CARLSON” starts right now. Monica Crowley sitting in for Tucker tonight.
Monica, good evening.
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