'Scarborough Country' for August 16

Guest: Linda Allison, Keith Greer, Lisa Bloom, Richard Hatch, Heidi Bressler, Omarosa Manigault-Stallworth

JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST:  Tonight‘s top story, a SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY shocker, we are going to take you inside the missing honeymooner‘s cabin, the night George Smith IV vanished.  We‘re going to give you an exclusive look at the Mediterranean murder mystery like never before, and tell you why the bride‘s first alibi may not be holding water. 

But first, our investigation in Aruba turns up information you have never heard before, and we‘re going to get reaction from Natalee‘s family.  Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, no passport required, only common sense allowed. 


From the press room to the courtroom to the halls of Congress, Joe Scarborough has seen it all.  Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.


SCARBOROUGH:  Good evening.  Tonight, an exclusive that could finally bring some answers in the shocking case of missing groom, George Smith IV.  Of course, you remember he disappeared from his honeymoon cruise more than five weeks ago, in a Mediterranean murder mystery.  We‘re going to see the videotape from the interrogation of one of the last people to see George Smith on that cruise that night, and his lawyer is here in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.  Friends, he is going to walk you through the final minutes of George Smith‘s life.  What you hear tonight could change the way you think about this case. 

But first, pressure is building in Aruba.  After a key witness testified about what he saw the night Natalee Holloway vanished.  Now in Aruba court has to decide whether the Kalpoe brothers should be locked back up in jail or allowed to wander the island.  Let‘s go live down to the island of Aruba right now, and NBC‘s Michelle Kosinski.  Get us up to date with the latest. 

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  Hi, Joe.  Well, prosecutors finally got that witness into the courtroom.  A guy who said he saw all three suspects together in a car early the morning Natalee disappeared, and after the time the Kalpoe brothers said they were already at home.  Prosecutors wanted this guy before a judge on the record, in case this case does go to trial, and in case this guy were to leave the country.  But it was defense attorneys that seemed very confident as they were leaving that day.  They claim this witness did not have very good detail about that morning.  That he seemed to recognize the rims of the car more than faces.  In fact, defense attorneys say that he didn‘t even recognize Satish Kalpoe, couldn‘t pick him out of a photo line-up. 

And this witness is one of the reasons police say they wanted him on the record to try to possibly rearrest those Kalpoe brothers.  They have a number of attempts they are doing right now, one of them was to hear what that witness had to say.  And of course, all of these ups and downs have been tough on the family.  They‘ve had hopes up so many times only to have them repeatedly dashed. 


BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, NATALEE‘S MOM:  You ask mom if there‘s anything about me that has changed, and she was saying, “yes,” but I—you know, there‘s only one thing that I can say about me that has changed, and it‘s my faith in God.  It‘s hard to have to be around somewhere that you haven‘t seen since Natalee was with us, but it‘s something that you have to begin to face, so I am able to face them just slowly.  You know, it‘s tough to go home, just to start facing these people I had not faced since I had Natalee at home.  So, I‘m just getting to face them, you know, a few at a time, and that‘s important to do that.  You have to begin to put this into reality, so I think that‘s been—you know, I hadn‘t had to do that in Aruba.  I mean, it was just select few that were flying in, and most of them were repeat, you know, or had already been in the week, two weeks before, so.

KOSINSKI:  Why do you think that is so hard?  Is it like another phase starting? 

TWITTY:  It must be.  It must be another phase, or another step in the realization process, so—but I have noticed that, and I noticed it in Birmingham, and then I noticed it now when I see other people that know Natalee, that I am having to face them. 


KOSINSKI:  And she‘s encouraged tonight to find out searchers will spend at least another week on this island—Joe. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Thanks so much, Michelle Kosinski.  Greatly appreciate it. 

Now I want to turn to former FBI Profiler, Clint van Zandt.  Now Clint, as you know, is down in Aruba for MSNBC.  This is a guy that brings 25 years of investigative experience with him.  Bottom line is, unfortunately, too many of these guys in Aruba, I don‘t think they have 25 days of experience when it comes to investigating this type of case.  Now, Clint was the FBI‘s chief hostage negotiator and he‘s, of course, best known as the leader of that team that identified the “Unabomber,” and for accurately profiling Timothy McVeigh on the day of the Oklahoma City bombing. 

Clint, a much, much different story than Oklahoma City, or the “Unabomber.”  You‘ve only been on the ground there for a couple days, but you have been talking to people involved in this case.  Clint, you‘ve uncovered, I think, some pretty shocking conclusions down there.  What‘s your gut telling you, though, right now as one of the top FBI profilers, about Joran Van Der Sloot? 

CLINT VAN ZANDT, FORMER FBI PROFILER:  Well, couple of things, Joe.  No.  1, you know, let‘s start with a presumption of innocence, just like in the United States.  We have to presume these three young men innocent.  That aside, you still have to have a working theory as an investigator.  I mean, I‘ve heard bizarre theories.  I‘ve heard people suggested that the three suspects—that Natalee wanted to run away from home, so they simply facilitated that.  I heard somebody else suggest, well, she must have just swam out, and the sharks ate her of her own volition.  I mean, these are all working theories here, but what I am hearing from investigators, from people who have looked at the interview, who have looked at the suspects, Joe, is the potential working theory right now that Joran Van Der Sloot is a predator, is perhaps a sexual predator.  If that is a working theory, of course, it has to be proven. 

What I‘m hearing suggested is that he has not done this simply the first time.  In essence, his contact, his inappropriate contact with Natalee, at best, is not the first time.  I heard today about other investigators who have said the same thing.  Yes, he has done these things before.  So let me carry this, Joe.  You know, the investigation has to prove it, but you have to have a working theory.  If, in fact, we have someone who is at 17 or 18 the potential of being a predator, if there‘s a history of having done this before, then this case, Joe, is not going to be broken on this island.  It‘s going to be broken by another victim, or another two victims.  If there were other victims in this individual‘s background, let‘s say in the United States, who‘ve been down here for vacation.  This is the time that we have to get passed that social stigma of I was victimized, perhaps I was date-raped, whatever it is. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And of course, they don‘t want to talk about it. 

VAN ZANDT:  They resist. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And Clint, what you‘re telling me, and what we have heard also is that it is a working theory that this guy wasn‘t a sweetheart.  He could have been on the verge of being a sociopath.  He preyed on young women.  The families is believed—members of the family have come on the show and said they believe he specifically targeted girls like Natalee on their final night on the island, so he could possibly put a date-rape drug inside their drink, rape them, abuse them, and be gone while they go back to the United States and he never hears about them again.  So you‘re telling me people inside the investigation in Aruba may believe that this guy is this kind of sexual predator, and this may be what happened to Natalee? 

VAN ZANDT:  I‘m saying that there are people who have knowledge of the investigation.  I mean, I have seen statements that Joran Van Der Sloot has given himself, where he suggested, no, it wasn‘t me, it was Deepak, who kidnapped, sexually assaulted, and murdered and buried her, so this is someone, as we know, who has given somewhere between five and 15 different versions of what happened.  Investigation 101 says you go to the last person who was with the victim.  If you‘re getting between 5 and 15 statements, different statements explaining what happened that night, it‘s hard to get away from this person as the suspect.  Then we have to explain how would he have the potential of doing that, and that‘s why we have this strong working theory right now. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Yeah, and it is a strong working theory.  Thanks so much, Clint van Zandt, for all your great work down there.  I tell you, we had Clint—Clint was going around the island today.  Got some remarkable video we were going to play for you tonight, but when he broke this from what was going on inside the investigation, and his sources telling him that they are working on the theory, this guy may be a sexual predator, on the verge of being a sociopath, well it was just too explosive we wanted to bring it to you. 

We also wanted, because of what Clint broke today, by going inside the investigation down there, we also wanted to bring in Natalee‘s aunt, Linda Allison. 

Linda, it sounds all too familiar.  You came on this show I think it was three—I think it was about three four weeks ago talking about a website that you had set up because you believed that Joran Van Der Sloot may have engaged in this type of activity before.  He waits until it‘s the final night, he slips a date-rape drug into a drink, and then, you know, very, very bad things happen.  You set up this website.  Does this surprise you at all, that this is now a working theory in the Aruba investigation, that Joran Van Der Sloot is a sexual predator? 

LINDA ALLISON, NATALEE‘S AUNT:  Well, Joe, I know when I set that email address up a couple of weeks ago, that was based on some rumors that I had heard while I was in Aruba, and again, after hearing this comment from Clint, it reaffirms my reason for putting that email address together. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And so what have you found?  You‘re putting this email address together and of course, we had a girl on from New Jersey a couple of nights ago who said Joran was an absolute sweetheart, of course, she didn‘t say no to Joran.  From my sources, of actually young students that were inside of Carlos and Charlie, that night, they said actually Natalee rebuffed this guy two times, and that, of course, if you‘re a sexual predator, that‘s when you get angry, and that‘s when you really start going on the attack.  Have you gotten any information from your website that‘s led you to believe that maybe this guy did prey on young girls like Natalee? 

ALLISON:  I actually have not gotten any witnesses so far that have come forward.  I haven‘t talked—I have actually had to turn that web or email address over to some family friends to try to go through that because it did become so overwhelming, with so many people just sending in tips or ideas that they had as far as where we needed to look next for Natalee.  And as far as I know, and again, I didn‘t check today, but as far as I know, there‘s not been any type of witness who actually had an encounter with Joran Van Der Sloot, and in it, I think it would be difficult for someone to come forward, but we do hope that they would. 


ALLISON:  I think for a girl to say, yes, I was drugged, and I wasn‘t aware of what was going on, and raped, that would be difficult for them to come forward, but we are hoping that with this case being as well known as it is, and out in the media so much, that maybe someone out there tonight will hear this and think I need to do the right thing, and I need to let someone know, let the Aruba police authorities know or email, again, try that email again, investigation for Natalee. 


All right, Clint, let me bring you back in here, because I tell you what, you and Linda, you‘re singing off—you‘re singing off the same page.  I mean, Linda has been trying to get people to come forward.  You say if this case is cracked, it‘s going to be cracked in the United States by efforts like Linda, but the big problem is, social stigma.  These girls are 17, 18 years old they‘re not going to come home and find their dad—they‘re not going to come home to me and say, “Dad, you know what, I got drunk, a guy raped me.” 

VAN ZANDT:  Yeah, and, you know, Joe, the challenges here, if this is the case, if he is this type of predator that some people suggest he is, someone out there in your audience right now, if they were a victim, they have the opportunity to stop him from doing this to someone again.  If you were a victim, if you don‘t come forward in this, and if this happens to another woman there are going to be others who are going to have to at least psychologically share this responsibility.  Should this be the case, this is the type of person we have to stop now, Joe, because that behavior at 18 is not going to change, and potentially it could get worse. 

SCARBOROUGH:  No doubt about it.  Clint, thanks for being with us. 

Linda Allison, as always, thanks for join us. 

ALLISON:  Thank you. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And listen, all of you out there, I want you to listen, OK?  If you have been involved with Joran Van Der Sloot, if—if this did happen to you, talk to your parents.  They will understand.  If you can‘t talk to your parents, talk to your pastor.  Talk to your rabbi.  Talk to your counselor at school.  Tell them what happened.  You know, there has got to be justice, not just justice for Natalee, but justice for so many other people down there, whether it was Joran or somebody else.  You got to get the facts on the table so we can know what happened down there that night. 

Now, coming up next, we‘ve got an exclusive in the case of the missing American groom.  You‘re going to see the Turkish interrogation of a college student who was with the groom on the night he vanished, and we are going to hear from his lawyer.  It is explosive, friends.  We‘re going to go through the final hours of George Smith‘s life, step by step, inside the cabin, inside the investigation, details that will change the way you think about this case.  That‘s coming up next.

And later some of the biggest names in reality TV come to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, to talk about their new show, where they battle it out, literally.  We got a huge night ahead in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, and friends, we are just getting started.  Stick around.


SCARBOROUGH:  Coming up next, you‘re going to hear the videotaped interrogation of a young man from California whose information could be the key to the case of missing honeymooner, George Smith, and we‘re going to be talking live to the attorney for that teen about what happened the final hours of George Smith‘s life.  It‘s an exclusive you‘re not going to want to miss.


SCARBOROUGH:  Exclusive video of George and Jennifer Smith on their Mediterranean honeymoon, and tonight, explosive new information, and another exclusive interview in the case of the young man who hasn‘t been seen since July 5. 

Now, SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY has obtained footage of the interrogation of Josh Askin.  He, of course, is one of the people the FBI is calling a “person of interest,” the young man from California.  The tape shows Turkish authorities questioning Josh and his father through a translator.  Let‘s watch. 


AUTHORITY:  You were in the casino at the ship with George and his wife?


AUTHORITY:  You took George to the room, he was very drunk?

ASKIN: This is—yeah, but you‘re missing a lot.  I said goodbye, but I didn‘t see if he was laying on the bed or anything.



SCARBOROUGH:  Now, that is just part of the tape.  We have got a lot of it to show you, but first, with me now, in a cable news exclusive, the attorney for Josh Askin, Keith Greer. 

Keith, thank you so much for being with us.  We‘ve got a lot to cover to get to the final hours, if anybody ever saw George Smith.  Let‘s me start, though, by talking about your client.  Josh was obviously one of the last people to see George Smith alive.  Was he involved in any way with George‘s disappearance? 

KEITH GREER, ATTORNEY FOR JOSH ASKIN:  Absolutely not, Joe.  This is a 20-year-old young man, who was participating in what he thought was going to be another night of fun on a boat, and helped a fellow passenger, who was drunk and couldn‘t walk, back to his cabin, and because of helping him obviously got brought into this terrible circumstance.

SCARBOROUGH:  Keith, how does he know George? 

GREER:  They actually—the family bumped into the Smiths when the boat was in Florence.  They both didn‘t have a tour plan and they actually shared a cab into Florence that day, and that‘s where the families first crossed paths. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Now, how was George and Jennifer that day? 

GREER:  The day of the trip to Florence? 


GREER:  Fine, they were a honeymoon couple.  George was a little bit tired from a long night before of partying, as you would expect on a cruise like this.  They‘re up until late having fun, and then up early on their trip to the cities, but this was a typical honeymoon couple. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You know, there have been—there‘s been so much suspicion pointed toward Jen Hagel, obviously, when you a spouse disappears, you immediately look at the other spouse.  Jen Hagel.  At the very beginning she said that she was exercising the next morning.  Does—that story just doesn‘t hold up.  We‘ll get to that in a second, but does your client believe that Jen Hagel was responsible in any way for the disappearance or death of her husband? 

GREER:  Again, absolutely not, Joe.  This is—this is a woman, a small woman.  She has a very large husband.  George is a very big, strong man.  That night of the incident, she was very inebriated, besides being a small person, and Josh and everybody I‘ve spoken with believe there‘s absolutely no way that she could have done something to get him of the boat.

SCARBOROUGH:  Yeah, if we can‘t go back to that video, are—Matt, I don‘t know if you can do it.  I want to get the video, just to show how much bigger George was than Jen, and anybody that thinks George could throw Jen—look at that.  It‘d be hard for her to move him across the room, let alone throw him out the window.  This guy played football.  Look at him.  I mean, he‘s everybody‘s all American, a big guy.  There is no way that she could hurt the guy and throw him overboard, probably couldn‘t even push him down on a bed. 

Keith, let‘s go through a timeline now.  I want you to walk us through the night, which I understand, again, at 11:30, and take us all the way up to what may have been the final minutes of George Smith‘s life.  What happened at around 11:30? 

GREER:  Yeah thanks, Joe, because that‘s really why we are here.  We‘ve heard Clete Hyman speak a lot, the room next door.  He‘s had what he observed mostly by hearing from the room—the adjacent room.  We‘re here to give the facts of what‘s happening on the other side of that wall and show how it all fits together and makes sense.

As you mentioned, about 11:30, things started happening, that‘s generally after—after dinner hours, and the young groups go into the casino to gamble.  Gambling and drinking went on until about 2:30 that day, when the casino finally closed, and everybody was moved into the disco.  On the way to the disco, the first unusual event, in hindsight now, was that obviously Jennifer by this time was already very inebriated and was actually being escorted to the disco by the casino manager.  They were in the elevator.

SCARBOROUGH:  Now, now, let me ask you, at 2:30, who of in the disco?  You had George and Jennifer, you had the honeymooners.  You had your client, Josh.  Who he was there? 

GREER:  Obviously, you have heard referring to the Russian boys.  This was a family of Russian descent and they‘re just, you know, American teenage boys, ages 18 to 20, a part of that young crowd that would meet every night at the casino and then move on to the disco.  These are faces people got to know over the course of several days, seeing each other just about each night, you know, in the disco. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And Lloyd—and Lloyd was—who was Lloyd again? 

GREER:  Yes, we believe he‘s the casino manager.  And he‘s the gentleman that was with Jennifer in the elevator when, in Josh‘s opinion, the way he was holding her, it was awkward.  I won‘t say more than that, they looked at another boy, and they looked at each other, and said this is awkward. 

SCARBOROUGH:  So Lloyd was moving in on George Smith‘s wife in the elevator at 2:30.  What happens next? 

GREER:  Everybody goes up to the disco.  George and the boys and the rest of the crowd gather around a table.  They continue drinking, they‘re drinking shots, they‘re having fun, partying.  Jennifer, however, sat down on a table—on a couch, right next to Lloyd.  Just a little bit away from everybody there. 

SCARBOROUGH:  So Jennifer‘s still separated with Lloyd, and are they drinking heavily at this time? 

GREER:  You know, they‘re still drinking, a shot was given to Jennifer, and she took a little sip, I guess, and just cringed.  It was too strong for her, she didn‘t finish it, but they were all drinking.  The ones at the table were drinking shots, and more heavily including George, and the rest of that crowd while Jennifer was on the couch, still sitting by Lloyd. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Now let‘s go back to our timeline.  3:15 a.m., Jennifer leaves with Lloyd.  Is that correct?  And again, we get—Lloyd is the blackjack manager.  He‘s the casino manager, and your client says at 3:15, well, you got George Smith sitting there with these Russian guys and your client.  Jennifer leaves with the guy who works in the casino.

GREER:  Right.  At this point in time, George has run out of gas, had gone beyond his limits.  He‘s having difficulty standing, he‘s dropping his cigarette, and about 15 minutes, the disco closed at 3:30, and about 15 minutes before closing, Jennifer left, and Lloyd left, and we believe they left together.  It‘s—you know, there‘s a lot of drinking and partying last night, though, so remembering specifics is tough, but we do believe that they left—she left with Lloyd from the disco at about 3:15. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  I‘ll tell you what.  We‘re going to move on to the final, unfortunately, the final tragic hour, possibly of George Smith‘s life when we return.  Keith Greer, stay with us.  Again, friends, it‘s 3:15 a.m., Jennifer Hagel leaves without her new husband, and George is so drunk, according to Josh Askin, George is so drunk that he can‘t even hold a cigarette.  It looks like the seeds are being planted for a tragedy.  We‘re going to tell you what Josh—again, this is all what this young California man, who was in the middle of it all, told his lawyer, who‘s telling us tonight in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.  We‘ll be right back in a second with the rest of the remarkable story.   


SCARBOROUGH:  Coming up next, our exclusive investigation into the honeymoon cruise mystery it continues with more from the Turkish interrogation tape, and also, we‘ll take you to the final minutes that anybody saw George Smith alive.  But first, here‘s the latest news that you and your family need to know.


SCARBOROUGH:  Actress and activist, Jane Fonda, ready to embark on another anti-war tour.  Tonight, exclusive, the man who went after John Kerry in 2004 now weighs in, ready to go after Hanoi Jane. 

Plus, some of the biggest names in reality TV are battling it out, in a new Bravo show, tonight, three of the biggest are here in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY to talk about it. 

Welcome back to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.  Those stories in a few minutes, but first, let‘s get back to our exclusive investigation of missing honeymooner, George Smith, IV. 

Now, SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY gained exclusive interrogation footage from Turkey, and it shows Josh Askin being questioned by Turkish authorities. 


JOSH ASKIN, WITH GEORGE SMITH THE NIGHT HE VANISHED:  She has no idea what happened, she was with another man.


ASKIN:  The casino manager would.  You need to get him in here.


ASKIN:  I‘m not letting her go to jail.  I‘m not letting her go to jail.


SCARBOROUGH:  I‘m here talking to the attorney for Josh Askin, Keith Greer. 

You look at that interrogation tape right there, Keith, and your client is saying, “I am not letting her go to jail.  She didn‘t know what happened to George.  She was with another man.”  That was at 3:15 a.m.  that she left, according to your client, with another man.  What happened after that?  Here you have George, again, to reset this, George is sitting in the disco, so drunk, according to your client, he can‘t even hold a cigarette. 

GREER:  3:15, Jennifer leaves.  3:30, the disco closes, everybody‘s taken home.  The boys walk—the three Russian boys and Josh walked George up, the three bigger Russian boys carrying him.  They get to the cabin about 3:35 or so, 3:40.  They notice Jennifer‘s not there.  George is concerned about it.  There‘s talk, there‘s a lot of noise, there‘s been a lot of drinking, it‘s a loud crew.  This is what Clete Hyman heard with the loud noise in the room, the first time that he woke up that evening.

SCARBOROUGH:  Just to interrupt you, Keith, for those that don‘t—that weren‘t watching when Clete came on a couple of times.  Clete was the guy that came on and—on this show and gave us a timeline of what he heard next door, but anyway, go ahead.  Continue. 

GREER:  All right.  They decide to go look for Jennifer.  They leave the room.  They walk to the solarium, the Jacuzzi.  They can‘t find Jennifer.  They go back.

SCARBOROUGH:  Is George with them? 

GREER:  Yes, with George.  They go back to George‘s room.  At that point in time, the decision is made just to call it an evening.  The other boys, the Russian boys, take George, put him down in his bed, set him down for the evening.  Josh actually used the facility in the room at the time.  They weren‘t there for very long.  They.

SCARBOROUGH:  Was George—I hate to interrupt you.  I‘m just curious, though.  I know a lot of people want to know, what was George‘s reaction?  Here he is on a honeymoon cruise his wife of, what, a week, maybe is gone with another man, again, according to your client.  Is George depressed, is he crying, is he angry?  What is his response? 

GREER:  You know, not at this point.  He‘s still in that “thanks, guys for helping.”  He actually kisses one of the guys on the cheek.  I guess, “I love you man” kind of things.  It hasn‘t—he hasn‘t gone into that deep ravine yet while the boys are there with him.  They say goodbye, goodbye, shuffle out the door.  That‘s what Clete Hyman said, he—sounded like people were saying “goodbye, goodbye,” trying to get everybody out the door and they left, the door closed and it was quiet.  Consistent with what... 

SCARBOROUGH:  What time was that?  About 4:00?

GREER:  It was about 4:00.  After that, the boys go off to one of the other boys‘ room, they ordered an incredible amount of room service, they eat the food, and about 5:15 or so in the morning, Josh winds up leaving the other boy‘s morning and going to bed.  The critical part of this case, Joe.

SCARBOROUGH:  OK, OK, let me—and I will get to the critical part in just a second, but lining up what you are telling us, with what Clete Hyman told us was, again, I mean, it fits right in with what Clete came on this show and said before.  It sounds like there were two different groups of people.  It sounds like the first group that came in was your group, and they put him to bed at 4:00, and then they left.  And then after that, Clete says it‘s silent for a little bit then he hears yelling and screaming, and things being rearranged.  But go ahead talk about what you and your client consider to be the critical part of this case. 

GREER:  Just—I‘m saying that the two times that Clete heard noises, it was both the groups of boys.  It was the same group.  They came in once, they stayed longer, they were louder, may have gone out into the deck, made a lot of commotion and waking them up.  Then they left with George.  That‘s that silent period in between, between 3:40 and 4:00.  Then the boys came back to put George down for the night, that was a very short visit.  Which Clete heard ending with everybody saying “goodbye, goodbye, goodbye” out the door.  After the boys left, Clete Hyman says it was quiet, but heard furniture moving around in the room, like somebody was cleaning the room, abruptly, moving furniture, dropping furniture, opening and closing cabinet doors.  We now know that the cabin door entering the Smith‘s room was actually damaged.  It was witnessed by my client.  It looked like it had been hit several times in different places.  It was switched out real quick by the boat, we don‘t know where it is.  But, what happened in that.

SCARBOROUGH:  So what does he think happened? 

GREER:  All right.  And Clete Hyman also said he thought he heard one voice in there, which we believe was George.  I think that you‘re going to have to get an expert out here on alcohol drinking, how it affects the human mind, but that lovey, happy George we think became aware of the circumstances, that Jennifer was not there.  He didn‘t know where she was.  He‘s alone, he is a big man.  He was upset.  There was furniture moving around, as Clete Hyman said, in the room.  It then moved onto the deck, he heard furniture moving around on the deck, never heard more than one voice in the room.  And then he heard the thud, about 4:20 in the morning.  At that time, the boys, Josh and the Russian boys, had ordered room service.  They were in their room waiting for room service, they were nowhere near the process. 


GREER:  And it.

SCARBOROUGH:  And so, Keith, does Josh believe that George may have become distraught and possibly killed himself?

GREER:  You know, it‘s—we are not psychologists, is that a distinct possibility?  Look at what‘s been published.  There have been 12 people who have been lost off boats in the last six years.  No charges anywhere.  What‘s—whatever the circumstances always been found to be suicide or accident.  What‘s it probably here?  Suicide or accident. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And so your client goes to sleep, 5:15, wakes up when? 

GREER:  Next morning, they‘re waking up, 7:15 in the morning or so, getting ready for a family tour off the boat.  He actually heard George Smith being paged, and went out to the hallway, and advised his statesman, the attendant there for his room, you might have somebody go knock on George‘s door.  He‘d been drinking a lot that night; he might not be waking up and responding to that page.  Then he went on with his business to get ready for the tour and head off the boat with his family. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, Keith, I tell you what, I want you to stay with us through one more break, because tomorrow night, we‘re going to ask you about the investigation that took place the next day, but I am really, really curious to hear what happened when your client gets up the next morning and is interrogated, and who does he see, but the bride, Jennifer Hagel, can‘t wait to hear what she had to say.  We‘ll get to that in one minute, when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns.  Stay with us. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Now let‘s continue with our exclusive SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY investigation with Keith Greer. 

Keith, I got to ask you, your client, the next morning, wakes up.  The investigation starts, and there he sees the bride, Jen Hagel.  How was she responding to this information?  How was she responding to the fact that her husband may be dead? 

GREER:  Yeah, at the time when Josh was brought back on the boat are his family they didn‘t know what was going on.  They say they‘d been called back to guest services.  When they got back to the boat, they were put in a room, and actually Josh was set in the room right next to Jennifer, which Josh immediately noticed that she was wearing the same black and white dress she had been wearing in the disco and casino the night before.  Nobody knows what‘s going on.  Then all of a sudden, they mention that they are looking for George, can‘t find him.  Things get a bit intense.  Jennifer‘s mentioning “What happened here?  I don‘t remember anything last night.  I blacked out.  I don‘t remember.  I don‘t remember what‘s—what happened.”  And then they very coldly and callously come and say, you know your husband‘s dead, or we think he‘s dead, he went overboard on the boat.  And.

SCARBOROUGH:  How does she respond to that? 

GREER:  Obviously she was distraught, and what—you can imagine how a honeymoon bride—would imagine, would react in that circumstance.  Everybody around did, and the way it was presented to them, the fact itself, just (INAUDIBLE) the circumstance much, much worse. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Stay with us, Keith.  I want to bring in Lisa Bloom. 

Lisa, we‘ve got so much information here.  You are a “Court TV” anchor; you‘ve been following this case from the very beginning.  What is your take on it?  What does all this new information mean for the investigation? 

LISA BLOOM, “COURT TV” ANCHOR:  GREER:  Well, I will tell you, very interesting, but I am skeptical, first of all, why doesn‘t Josh Askin come on himself and tell the story, why is he lawyering up.  And this suicide theory, are you kidding me?  A young healthy man, with good employment, a beautiful young wife, and he‘s on—he‘s on his honeymoon, he‘s having a great time.  Because one night he is drunk and his wife isn‘t there, he somehow bludgeons himself leaving blood in the room, leaves blood on the awning, and hurls then himself over board without leaving a note, without saying a word to anyone?  We don‘t see him wandering around the ship at three or 4:00 a.m., saying, “Jennifer, Jennifer where are you,” indicating that he‘s despondent, so I think this raises a lot more questions.

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, what about the possibility that it‘s crewmembers?  What about the possibility that crewmembers—we heard the Turkish investigators telling us that crewmembers actually brought—or, went to the room also. 

GREER:  Went to the room also, for what purpose? 

SCARBOROUGH:  What‘s that? 

GREER:  For what purpose? 

SCARBOROUGH:  Oh, actually took Jennifer back to the room. 

GREER:  OK.  So Jennifer goes back to the room, but that doesn‘t corroborate any kind of a suicide.  I mean the suicide story, I just think is preposterous.  I think something clearly happened to George, something nefarious, that‘s why there‘s blood in the room, and that‘s why he‘s disappeared.  I think it was a pretty clear case of murder, not suicide. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right, Keith, but you think that the bloody evidence and a lot of other people, that would look at the towels in there, and the bloody evidence in there might point to a suicide.  Talk about that. 

GREER:  Yeah, there‘s some information that Miss Bloom needs, and that was disclosed to the Askins, while being interrogated by the Turkish authorities, where they said what was found in the room was blood on a towel, and some drops of blood on the bed.  Now, if this was something nefarious that was going on and that was somebody else‘s blood or some evidence, you‘re on a cruise ship, you throw it out the window, it‘s gone.  The only logical inference that this was an injury and anybody injuring their hand or hitting something, they are going to wrap a towel around it and protect it.  That‘s how it was left in the room when George went out on that deck that night. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right, Keith, thank you.  Lisa Bloom, thanks a lot. 

We‘ll be right back in a second in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.



ANNOUNCER:  Charlotte waiting for the opportunity to hit.  Oh! And she‘s trying to readjust the “Swan‘s” new face. 

(CHANTING):  Charlotte, Charlotte.  Charlotte, Charlotte.  Charlotte, Charlotte.

ANNOUNCER:  The”Swan,” in a frenzy.  The wings are flapping. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Ah, the agony of defeat.  If you‘re a reality TV fan, I‘ll tell you what, the Bravo Network has a great treat for you.  You just saw a clip of “Battle of the Network Reality Stars,” which premieres tomorrow night, 9:00 p.m.  And tonight, I‘m joined by three of stars, Richard Hatch, she‘s the winner, of course, of the original “Survivor,” and two “Survivors” from “Apprentice,” Heidi Bressler, and also, Omarosa. 

Richard, you‘re kind of like the Elvis of reality TV.  I am serious. 

It all started with you. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Well, you know, maybe—there‘re always second acts in American life.  Talk about your second act in American life.  Talk about what people are going to see when they tune in tomorrow night. 

HATCH:  Well, you know, reality television, just like scripted television, has some good shows and some bad shows, and what “Battle of the Network Reality Stars” did is just like “Battle of the Network Stars” from the 70‘s.  They took some of the really good reality people, for whatever reasons, personalities or drama, and they brought us together, and these games that we play are just a part of the show.  The drama behind the scenes is just—is another half of the craziness, but it‘s a really, really good show with all kinds of competitions, and intensity, that I think the followers of reality TV will really enjoy. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, you.


SCARBOROUGH:  You get naked again, Richard? 

HATCH:  Pretty much kind of always.  You know?

BRESSLER:  I love you—I love you naked, Richard. 

HATCH:  It just always happens. 


We love your (INAUDIBLE). 


SCARBOROUGH:  All right, I‘ll tell you, too much reality for me.  Omarosa, I understand you‘re on the sidelines, providing the play by play.  Tell us about this project. 

MANIGAULT-STALLWORTH:  Well, I don‘t think many people know that my background is in journalism, my bachelor‘s and masters are both in broadcast journalism, so this was a natural return back to my actual profession, and I am going to tell you, competitive, competitive, competitive.  Richard and Heidi are so competitive in this event, that I would tune in just to see the drama that uncovers between the two of them. 

I mean, Heidi Bressler is one tough cookie, although she tries to act as though all she does is spend her time in Blooming, which is half true, but she also works out too.  So, she—you will see her going toe-to-toe on the joust (INAUDIBLE) and beating the crap out of them.  So, it‘s phenomenal. 

BRESSLER:  Yeah, but you don‘t want to watch—watch tomorrow, you have to watch tomorrow, because you‘ll see a different side to me, and I am quite embarrassed by it, but you‘ll see it. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Richard, you and Omarosa, both.

MANIGAULT-STALLWORTH:  Don‘t are embarrassed.  I thought you were tough. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Richard, you like wearing the black hats, during your respective series, and it really, it really paid off for you.  What is it about Americans, and I think most Americans understood a lot of it was just a put-on, but what is it about these type of shows that attracts so many viewers to the people aren‘t afraid to be brusque, wear it, like I said, were the black hat and be the bad guy? 

MANIGAULT-STALLWORTH:  Well, I took a lot of note, Joe, I took a lot of note from Richard, and I have to give him due where—due where it‘s proper—his proper, I mean, Richard.

SCARBOROUGH:  Again, he is Elvis. 

MANIGAULT-STALLWORTH:  I mean, really set the stage for.



BRESSLER:  I learned so much from him on the battle show.

MANIGAULT-STALLWORTH:  Richard, I mean, I am going to tell you, Richard set the stage.  I remember the first appearances—I mean the first “Survivor,” and I remember him saying he had strategy, and to how everybody got caught up into his whole game, so on the apprentice, it was very much the same way, so actually have to thank Richard for bringing strategy into the game of reality.

HATCH:  You know, Joe, when you talk about wearing the black hat, I mean, I think what really happened in that initial game was just what needed to happen for the game.  There was—Omarosa‘s right, and she‘s a thinker, and there‘s a strategy involved in playing these games, and if you come in with that attitude, you can do very well, but being straightforward, you‘re often looked at as the guy with the black hat.  You are often looked at as the wicked one.  And, you know, I can‘t worry about what other people think of me.  I learned that a long time ago.  I had a great time playing the game. 


HATCH:  I won the game.  And I wouldn‘t change anything. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Omarosa, I‘ll ask you the same thing:  Why do people.

BRESSLER:  Am I chopped liver?

SCARBOROUGH:  Love to hate you, why are they attracted to people that, again, wear the black hat and aren‘t afraid to be—I‘m—look at “American Idol”.  There‘s a series that would not work if you didn‘t have somebody who, let‘s face it, was just a jerk, to the lousy contestants.

MANIGAULT-STALLWORTH:  Well, Americans love the bad boy, and they absolutely love the bad girl, and they love to hate us, and if they didn‘t have that person that they could turn to and say, oh, that Richard is getting on my nerves and why is he so conniving.  And that Omarosa, she‘s such a bitch.  I mean if they didn‘t have that, there would be no story line, there would be no plot, and there would be no suspense.  They tuned in every week to see what Richard was going to do next.  They tuned in every week to see what I was going to do next.  If they could anticipate exactly what would happen, they would never tune in.  Richard meant big ratings.  Omarosa equated to big ratings, and at the end of the day, that‘s what reality television is all about. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And Heidi, what happens next? 

BRESSLER:  You mean on this show?  I feel like chopped liver here, you‘re not even asking me. 

SCARBOROUGH:  On the set.

BRESSLER:  Battle—I was like, what about me?  Where‘s the love?  The “Battle of the Network Reality Show,” honestly, you‘re going to see, it‘s competitive, it‘s—there‘s more drama than on the “Apprentice,” there‘s more emotions.  I mean, what‘s really crazy is it is going to be on the Jumbotron in Times Square, tomorrow, which I am kind of embarrassed about.  But I had the best time, and people think, oh, I remember it from the 1970‘s.  Take it from the 1970‘s, and just add so much drama and twist and alliances.  You‘re talking “Apprentice” people, “American Idol”, “Survivor.”  You get all these 32 reality stars together, and we‘re all nuts, we‘re all one big dysfunctional family.  It‘s going to be the show to watch. 

HATCH:  By the way, Joe, a bunch of the folks from the original “Battle of the Network Stars” join us on “Battle of the Network Reality Stars,” too.  Which will be fun.





SCARBOROUGH:  It‘s just too much.  It is—it is a pop culture orgy I can‘t wait to dive into.  Richard Hatch, keep your clothes on.  Omarosa, thank you.  Heidi, I showed you the love. 

BRESSLER:  You showed me the love. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Even though Rabbi (INAUDIBLE) didn‘t want me to, I showed you the love. 

BRESSLER:  Thank you so much.

SCARBOROUGH:  Thanks a lot. 

HATCH:  Bye, Joe.

MANIGAULT-STALLWORTH:  Thanks, Joe, bye-bye.

SCARBOROUGH:  We‘ll be watching.  Coming up next, people running and pushing their way through gates, trampling over each other.  What could possibly be so important that lives were put at risk?  We‘ll show you coming up next. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Thousands race down the streets, bargain hunters nearly killed each other.  We‘re going to show you what caused the stampede coming up next. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Would you risk your life or the life of a loved one for a laptop computer that costs 50 bucks, and does 50 bucks sound like it‘s a deal that‘s too good to be true?  Well, it was in Richmond, Virginia, this morning, when thousands of people pushed through gates at Richmond International Raceway, where a local school district was selling used laptops, limit one for customer, please, for 50 bucks a pop.  Several people were trampled and injured in the stampede, including a poor little girl in a stroller. 

What would you do for eye $50 computer?  Well, one woman stood in line and wet her pants rather than go to ladies room and lose her place in line.  So, gain a laptop computer, lose your dignity.  That‘s all the time we have for SCARBOROUGH COUNTY tonight, now it‘s time to pass it on to Monica Crowley for the “SITUATION.”



Content and programming copyright 2005 MSNBC.  ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.  Transcription Copyright 2005 Voxant, Inc. ALL RIGHTS  RESERVED. No license is granted to the user of this material other than for research. User may not reproduce or redistribute the material except for user‘s personal or internal use and, in such case, only one copy may be printed, nor shall user use any material for commercial purposes or in any fashion that may infringe upon MSNBC and Voxant, Inc.‘s copyright or other proprietary rights or interests in the material. This is not a legal transcript for purposes of litigation.