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'Abrams Report' for August 23

Guests: Louise Pennell, Frank Liversedge, Clint Van Zandt, Maureen Howard, Blake Maresh, Art Wood, Chris Lejuez

DAN ABRAMS, HOST:  Coming up, Olivia Newton-John‘s boyfriend missing now for nearly two months, new details emerging today. 


ABRAMS (voice-over):  Patrick McDermott was last seen on an overnight fishing trip.  His ex-wife reported him missing almost two weeks later after he didn‘t show up at a family party and she found his car.  But why did it take so long for Newton-John to notice he was gone?  We talk with a supervisor of the marina where the boat left from and returned. 

And a doctor who is helping young people pay for college could now lose his medical license while officials investigate a claim that he forced at least one of those boys to undress in front of him as punishment.  So why is he not facing criminal charges? 

Plus, a report out of Aruba that a teenage girl has hired a lawyer and is going to claim that suspect Joran van der Sloot drugged and forced himself on her. 

The program about justice starts now.  


ABRAMS:  Hi everyone.  First up on the docket tonight, the disappearance of

Olivia Newton-John‘s long-time boyfriend.  It seems to be getting stranger

new questions about his financial status, his relationship with his ex-wife.  Patrick McDermott was last seen on an overnight fishing trip almost eight weeks ago and authorities seem to have no idea what happened to him.  Here‘s what we know. 

June 30:  McDermott sets off on an overnight fishing trip, telling his friends he‘d return the following evening. 

July 6:  McDermott‘s family grows concerned when he doesn‘t show up at an event with his ex-wife but no one calls police. 

Five days later, July 11, McDermott‘s ex-wife finds his car at the marina, reports him missing.  McDermott and Olivia Newton-John were reportedly dating for about nine years.  Late yesterday she broke her silence and released this statement. 

My dear friend Patrick McDermott, who I love very much, is missing.  Out of

respect for his family, I have chosen not to make any public statements until now.  For those of us who know and love him, it has been a truly heartbreaking experience and we have chosen to deal with it privately.  I have offered my full cooperation to the authorities who are continuing to investigate the circumstances of his disappearance and we are hopeful that eventually we will find some answers.

Joining me now is Louise Pennell, foreign correspondent for Seven Network Australia.  She‘s been following this story since it broke in the Australian papers on Sunday.  Thanks very much for coming on the program.  We appreciate it.


ABRAMS:  So this is such a puzzling case.  Here‘s the first thing that I don‘t understand.  Why did it take so long to realize he was missing?  I mean if Olivia Newton-John was dating him for nine years, didn‘t she wonder why he hadn‘t contacted her in weeks? 

PENNELL:  Well that‘s the question that everyone‘s asking.  There are a lot of questions being raised about this case and not many being answered.  Olivia Newton-John was actually in Australia when Patrick McDermott was first reported missing.  In fact, she was on a promotional tour for an environmental group.  She was at a tree planting and appeared smiling publicly, certainly gave and showed no signs of being concerned about her partner. 

She then went on a retreat and also had photographs taken of her at this retreat.  Again, showing no signs of stress or worry about her partner, so really, the question remains why was Patrick McDermott‘s wife the one reporting him missing and not Olivia Newton-John. 

ABRAMS:  What about his ex-wife?  Do you know anything about what their relationship was like? 

PENNELL:  Well, what we do know is that there were some problems with finances.  Patrick McDermott on the fishing boat, “The Freedom” (ph), told the crew that he had some alimony troubles with his ex-wife, who is an actress, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) is her name and as far as I know, he complained about financial troubles with her.  They have a 15-year-old son together and today, we have documents that prove that Patrick McDermott actually applied or filed for bankruptcy back in July of 2000.  So whether he had financial difficulties and staged his disappearance, whether it was a murder or an abduction, no one seems to know. 

ABRAMS:  And without getting too gossipy about this, I mean do we know what the status of their relationship was, with Olivia Newton-John and McDermott?  I mean were they actively dating or do we just not know? 

PENNELL:  Dan, I think that‘s an interesting question.  They were together nine years and the media always thought that Patrick McDermott was sharing her Malibu home.  But we do know that Olivia Newton-John spends her time between Australia and America and neighbors of Patrick McDermott in Van Nuys and Los Angeles said they often saw him at his Van Nuys home.  That his 15-year-old son often visited him there and you have to ask the question, if they were in a committed relationship, then why did it take so long for Olivia Newton-John to find out...


PENNELL:  ... that her partner was actually missing. 

ABRAMS:  Let me ask you a quick media question.  I mean July 11, the ex-wife reports him missing.  It‘s only Sunday, I guess, and the Australian papers, that the story breaks that her—that Olivia Newton-John‘s boyfriend is missing.  What took so long? 

PENNELL:  Well, originally, he was just a missing person.  In fact, the U.S. Coast Guard and the LAPD issued a press release about a month ago seeking public assistance for a Patrick McDermott and no one seemed to join the dots.  It was actually “News of the World” that broke this story and it appeared in a tabloid—Australian tabloid magazine, which of course the newspapers and television jumped upon and I guess that‘s why I‘m talking to you today. 


PENNELL:  But I think it‘s interesting that Olivia Newton-John did go public, as you said, yesterday with a statement, appealing to the public to help find her partner. 


PENNELL:  Why she didn‘t do this when she first found out that he was missing, well who knows. 

ABRAMS:  Yes.  All right.  Louise, stay with us for a minute, if you would.  Joining me now is Frank Liversedge, the manager of the 22nd Street Landing where the charter boat that McDermott was on set sail on June the 30th.  Thank you so much sir, for coming on the program.  We appreciate it. 

All right.  So was this an overnight trip where he did not know the other people on the boat?  Do you know what type of boat trip this was? 

FRANK LIVERSEDGE, 22ND STREET LANDING MANAGER:  Oh this was an overnight trip.  It left at 10:00 and returned at 8:00 p.m. the following night.  It‘s evident he didn‘t go on the boat with anyone else.  He made reservations for one person.  If he would have been with someone else, he would have made reservations for two people.

ABRAMS:  All right.  Just so we‘re clear then...


ABRAMS:  Right, it‘s not as if a group of friends rented the boat and everyone would be saying hey, what happened to Patrick.  The bottom line is he made a reservation for one person on this boat overnight and the other people on the boat really may not have known him.

LIVERSEDGE:  That‘s correct. 

ABRAMS:  All right.  Now, you were able to actually go onto the boat and you found some of his belongings? 

LIVERSEDGE:  Well, the person who cleans up the boat at the end of the day found some of his belongings, his fanny pack, his rod and reel, his tackle box, and they turned them into the office and they were in my possession.

ABRAMS:  When you say fanny pack, I mean did that include like a wallet and passport, et cetera? 

LIVERSEDGE:  In his fanny pack was his wallet, passport, car keys, some change, some other documents, and stuff like that were in there.

ABRAMS:  All right.  So this is—these are his most important personal items that are still on that boat.  Do you have any sense of any other people on the boat as to what they were saying about seeing him going off the boat or snorkeling or something? 

LIVERSEDGE:  I understand that some of the passengers gave depositions to the Coast Guard, stating that they thought they saw him get off the boat.  They were pretty sure that he got of the boat; they talked to him during the day.  The Coast Guard has these depositions and they haven‘t turned them loose as far as I know. 

ABRAMS:  And do you know what they said though? 

LIVERSEDGE:  I don‘t know the exact wording of them.  No, I never saw them.

ABRAMS:  But you have said that some other people on the boat were very vocal about his ex-wife? 

LIVERSEDGE:  Some of the people told me yes, there were a lot of statements that he supposedly made.  But that‘s—I have no real knowledge of what they said.  I understand that those are in the depositions that the people gave to the Coast Guard. 

ABRAMS:  Now, when did you—I mean I would assume it‘s a pretty big deal for you if someone goes missing on a boat with regard to a marina that you supervise.  I assume that‘s fairly significant.  When did you learn that someone had gone missing or was last seen on one of your boats? 

LIVERSEDGE:  On the 11th of July, Patrick McDermott‘s ex-wife called me on the telephone and asked me if I had seen him.  I told her I knew nothing about what she was talking about.  She asked me if I had anything turned in like a fanny pack or anything.  I said yes.  I described it to her.  She gave me permission to open it.  I opened it and I found his driver‘s license, credit cards, car keys.  She gave me his license plate number from his car.  I called Mike Frank (ph), owner of the boat.  He happened to be home that day.

We drove to the parking lot.  We found his car.  And at that point I called the police and the Coast Guard, and I said we may have a problem.  Something is wrong here.

ABRAMS:  Just, again...

LIVERSEDGE:  That‘s when it all started.

ABRAMS:  ... one more point of clarification.  You say that some of the other people on the boat say he may have gotten off the boat.  This was an overnight trip.  Did it stop in certain places or did it go out to sea and simply come back?

LIVERSEDGE:  It goes out to sea and comes back.  You‘re not allowed to touch the islands, either Catalina or San Clemente Island and the boat never got probably within 100 yards at the closest to the island any time.

ABRAMS:  So some people say that they saw him getting off the boat after the trip was over? 


ABRAMS:  Wow.  All right.  Frank Liversedge, thank you very much. 

Appreciate it. 

All right.  Back with me now is Louise Pennell and Clint Van Zandt, the FBI former profiler.  Clint, I don‘t know what to make of this case.  This is bizarre. 

CLINT VAN ZANDT, FORMER FBI PROFILER:  Yes, it really is, Dan.  I mean what you just found out that people suggesting he got off the boat, I mean you know I‘m sitting here saying well wait, if that fanny pack was sitting there, how long did it sit there, and if someone somebody left it, I mean you know I would have zipped it up and said hey, it‘s so-and-so‘s, I‘m going to call the guy and say hey, do you know you left it here.  So you know I mean those things happen, I guess. 

ABRAMS:  But you also are not going to just—it seems like a bizarre way to sort of flee, which is to go on this boat, on an overnight trip and then leave the boat in front of other people and yet leave all your stuff on the boat? 

VAN ZANDT:  Well, that‘s going to be the issue.  If, in fact, other people saw him get off the boat, if he wasn‘t trying to hide that, then it doesn‘t suggest like he‘s trying to make it look like he drowned because he didn‘t want to pay financial responsibilities, and he‘s going to go off to Tahiti and start a new life or something like this.  You know that‘s the things that movies are made of, but not real life normally.

ABRAMS:  I guess I should have asked Frank about the distance that the boat could go near the islands.  I mean could someone jump off?  You see there the route that the boat goes.  I guess it depends on exactly where the boat goes as to whether someone might be able to sort of jump off and swim over to an island.  I don‘t know. 

VAN ZANDT:  Well yes, same thing.  I mean I‘ve thought the same thing.  If guys are out fishing, if it‘s at night, you know you slide near the end of the boat.  You drop over the side.  You swim into shore or something like that.  I mean this is—this has got a whole lot of hot buttons that I would hope the police and the Coast Guard are pushing right now trying—you know this is one of these is it real or is it Memorex.  You know, doesn‘t seem like this group of strangers would have any animosity against this guy to do anything...

ABRAMS:  Clint...

VAN ZANDT:  ... so what did he do to himself, perhaps. 

ABRAMS:  Why is the Coast Guard running this investigation? 

VAN ZANDT:  Well, it‘s a missing person case aboard a boat you know inland.  It‘s interesting—there‘s an interesting line between the Coast Guard and the FBI.  As you‘ve reported on some other missing persons cases, when it‘s a cruise ship at sea or in foreign waters, the FBI comes in. 


VAN ZANDT:  And something like this, missing person, no evidence of foul play, you know the Coast Guard has got the ticket for a while.  Let‘s hope they can resolve it.

ABRAMS:  Louise, real quick, is this getting a lot of attention in Australia?

PENNELL:  A huge amount of attention.  She‘s definitely the golden girl of Australian entertainment.  Olivia Newton-John is sort of like the Sandra Dee of our time I guess you could say...


PENNELL:  ... so her private life has always been a fascination to the Australian public and this certainly hit the newspaper‘s front page and it‘s still going.

ABRAMS:  All right.  Louise Pennell, thanks a lot for taking the time. 

Clint Van Zandt, as always...


ABRAMS:  ... appreciate it. 

VAN ZANDT:  Thanks Dan.

ABRAMS:  He‘s coming back.  Coming up, a doctor could lose his medical license after a teenage boy—he was apparently helping to pay for college for him—claims the doctor forced him to take Viagra and undress in front of him as some sort of punishment.  Apparently, he could have some trouble with the Medical Board but not the law? 

And an Aruban teenager has reportedly hired a lawyer and is going to claim that Joran van der Sloot drugged and forced himself on her.  If true, the teen paints a very different picture of Joran than an American teen who briefly dated him and invited Joran to stay at their house, the family did.  We hear what she told us exclusively. 

Your e-mails  Please include your name and where you‘re writing from.  I respond at the end of the show.



PAT NORDIN, PATIENT‘S MOTHER:  I would leave my child with him right now—alone with him and I just don‘t believe it. 


ABRAMS:  She‘s not alone.  A lot of people in the Seattle area can‘t believe the allegations that Washington State Department of Health is investigating in the case of Dr. Bill Schnall, a pediatrician for nearly 30 years, former school board president, president of the medical staff at a children‘s hospital, a man who apparently helped pay tuition for some young people to go to college.  But now, Schnall‘s license to practice medicine has been suspended.  He could lose it for good after a hearing expected at the end of this month. 

The allegations against Dr. Schnall include inappropriate and sexually explicit behavior with several adolescent male patients.  One says he forced him to strip as some form of punishment, inappropriate prescriptions for drugs including amphetamines and Viagra, interfering with the Health Department‘s investigation by threatening a patient, contacting another patient after the Health Department told him not to.  And Dr. Schnall‘s attorney says—quote—“there‘s two sides to every story, but that he can‘t comment more because of the continuing investigation.”

Linda Byron is a correspondent with NBC‘s Seattle affiliate KING, who has been covering the story.  Linda, thanks very much for coming on the program.  All right.  So he‘s accused of making boys strip and giving them Viagra.  I mean is this an accusation of doing this multiple times or just with one boy?

LINDA BYRON, KING-TV REPORTER:  No, this is an accusation involving eight alleged victims and that this took place over a period of a couple of years.  There is one patient referred to in the statement of charges as patient one.  A lot of the allegations surrounded him.  But then investigators say he went further and was supplying drugs to some of the frat brothers to this young man and to some of that young man‘s family members, and then there were other patients—former patients of his with whom he had some inappropriate sexual behavior. 

ABRAMS:  All right.  He is saying—quote—“when you deal with a large population of fragile young people, there is always the risk of patients not being able to handle your advice and not being compliant with the suggestions you give them, one of whom has made some unbelievable, unsubstantiated hearsay allegations against me.”

But he goes on—this is number six—no great deed goes unpunished.  The problem was that he was wanting all the positive things that he could get from me, but wasn‘t willing to take any discipline or consequences of his actions.

That‘s a weird way to respond to this.  I mean it sort of sounds like he‘s saying that he needed to be disciplined and that‘s the allegation, right, that he was disciplining him by making him get naked.

BYRON:  Yes, exactly.  Now, see what was going on here is that the doctor was making—first becoming friends with the patients and over a long period of time, would actually begin to pay their college, pay for apartments, in one case give this young man a credit card, and then according to the statement of charge, and of course these are just allegations, he would punish them if they didn‘t do well in school or abuse the credit card and you know in this 21-page document of allegations against him, it describes some pretty bizarre behavior, making the—some of these young men take Viagra and stand in front of a mirror.  In one case, having one of the young men stand naked in the doctor‘s backyard and hosing him down.  Certainly things that go well beyond what you would expect from a family pediatrician. 

ABRAMS:  Yes.  All right.  But Linda let‘s be clear, he‘s not facing any possible criminal charges? 

BYRON:  Well here‘s the situation.  The prosecutor‘s office and the sheriff‘s office took a look at two victims who came forward with complaints.  They wanted to see if there was any kind of immoral communication with a minor or any other kind of criminal offense.  And because these two young men were over the age of 16, it did not meet the standard for a criminal violation.  That being said, the sheriff‘s department says it will be taking a look at what the Health Department comes up with, what happens in this hearing and may reopen the investigation at some point.

ABRAMS:  Is the community outraged or coming to his support?  I mean I assume there‘s no such thing...

BYRON:  Well...

ABRAMS:  ... as—quote—“the community”.  I guess it depends on who you ask, but...

BYRON:  Well I have to tell you this—it‘s hard to overstate the doctor‘s reverence in this community, not only where he practiced as a pediatrician but also in the medical community.  And there are many, many people, former patients, current patients, their families, other doctors he knows who are coming forward and saying, they absolutely do not believe this and saying you need to take another look at the accusers.  But again remember, in this 21 pages, there are eight alleged victims.  This is not just one person...

ABRAMS:  Right.

BYRON:  ... making these allegations.  All right, Linda Byron, I know you‘ve got to get to your regular job there at KING.  Thanks very much...


ABRAMS:  ... for coming on the program.  Appreciate it.  So again, the question...

BYRON:  All right, happy to be here...

ABRAMS:  The question of course is, you know, no criminal charges considering all of the allegations here.  Let me read—before I go and talk to a law professor there about this—let me read you some of the allegations against this doctor.

That he told this boy he had large testicles, which he measured repeatedly; had him produce a semen sample while visiting his home; photographed him in the nude; gave him a bedroom at his home and sometimes lay next to him; gave him prescription for amphetamines and allowed him to give pills to his mother; solicited and received back rubs and massages.

Sent him e-mails about masturbation; required him to stand naked in front of him and promise not to repeat unacceptable conduct, a process he allegedly called “oathing”; ordered him to take Viagra; masturbate in the mirror before “oathing”; told him he would withdraw financial aid and have him held down and tied up if he refused to take Viagra; masturbated in front of the patient.  He says he hit him and verbally abused him.  That‘s an easy one, criminally, if that actually happened.  Broke into his home when one of the patients tried to end the relationship.

All right.  I‘m joined now by Maureen Howard, University of Washington law professor and former King County prosecutor; and Blake Maresh, executive director of Washington State‘s Medical Quality Assurance Commission.  Thank you both very much for joining us.  We appreciate it.

Professor Howard, bottom line here, is it surprising to you that so far—and again, we‘re just talking allegations.  We‘re just talking initial investigation.  That they‘re saying we don‘t have anything to really go with here? 

MAUREEN HOWARD, UNIV. OF WASHINGTON LAW PROFESSOR:  Well it‘s not surprising and actually, I don‘t think it‘s clear that the King County Prosecutor‘s Office or the King County Sheriff‘s Office is saying that today.  What I understand from what I‘ve read is that‘s what they said when they were contacted back in April.  So that‘s with the information they had over six months ago, based on the information available at that time, that there was no criminal behavior on which to bring up charges. 

Now, looking at the information that we have today and some of the allegations that you‘ve read off, for example, you yourself correctly pointed out if there‘s an allegation, that the doctor in fact hit one of these young men, that‘s going to be an assault charge and the King County Sheriff‘s Office would have no trouble referring that to the King County Prosecutor‘s Office, which would bring the charges.  And in fact, if it happened the way it was alleged to happen, where the doctor was masturbating just before the assault, then it probably would be assault with sexual motivation, and if the doctor were convicted, then he‘d have to register as a sex offender. 

ABRAMS:  And what if there weren‘t evidence specifically of an assault, but the rest of this, you know, if they—if, if, if they are able...

HOWARD:  Right.

ABRAMS:  ... to demonstrate the rest of what sounds like this nasty sexual behavior? 

HOWARD:  Well and you say sexual because it has to do with sexual organs.  But if you take each allegation separately, now some of the things, remember, the conglomerate of these allegations just sound appalling.  It just sounds shocking.  But if you look at individual behavior, the fact that he measured testicles and he reported to medical authorities that one of his patients had what he perceived as abnormally large testicles, that he asked for a semen sample in his home, I don‘t know the basis for the reason that he did that.  I know that I have had blood drawn at a doctor‘s home when there was an emergency situation. 


HOWARD:  So I don‘t know that if there was a medical reason for the treatment that the King County Prosecutor‘s Office might look and say, there‘s not enough there for us to charge.  So each individual charge would have to be looked at separately...

ABRAMS:  Right.

HOWARD:  ... and we—I don‘t believe we have enough facts right now and so...

ABRAMS:  All right.

HOWARD:  ... I think it‘s actually prudent for the King County Sheriff‘s Office and the King County Prosecutor‘s Office to do what they‘re doing, which is...

ABRAMS:  To wait...

HOWARD:  ... the board is investigating. 


HOWARD:  In fact, as of last week I believe that six of the folks hadn‘t even been interviewed...

ABRAMS:  All right.  Let me ask Blake Maresh, executive director of the Washington State Medical Quality Assurance Commission.  Is there the possibility that there would be a legitimate medical reason to ask for a semen sample in your own home? 

BLAKE MARESH, MEDICAL QUALITY ASSURANCE CMM (via phone):  Well Dan, I‘m not -- well I‘m not a clinician, you know, and I‘m basically you know interpreting the will of the medical commissioners themselves.  I think that the likelihood of you know needing to draw a semen sample in a home setting is pretty remote.  I think that—yes, looking at the individual activities you know in a vacuum, you could begin to kind of you know build a case around you know well maybe this individual (UNINTELLIGIBLE) isn‘t so bad. 

But again the whole concept or the whole notion of asking for a semen sample in a home setting in the context of all these other allegations, I think really—it puts it more in context of the type of behavior that Dr.  Schnall is being accused of. 

ABRAMS:  All right.  And I guess that‘s the big question, is that you probably would say to me look, it depends on what ends up being true and what is not.  Let me just read this statement from the attorney for Bill Schnall, Dr. Bill Schnall.

Dr. Schnall is extremely grateful for all the support that has been shown to him.  He can‘t comment further about this because it‘s an ongoing investigation.  There‘s always at least two sides to every story and Dr.  Schnall certainly has his side of the story, but now is not the time or the place to air that story.

You know, I would argue that you got the court public opinion to deal with here, but that‘s the lawyer‘s decision, so—all right, Blake Maresh and Professor Maureen Howard, thank you so much.  Appreciate it. 

MARESH:  Thank you Dan.

ABRAMS:  Coming up, a new report about the only suspect in custody in the Natalee Holloway case.  A teenager girl has reportedly hired a lawyer and is going to claim that Joran van der Sloot drugged her and forced himself on her.  We‘ll hear from an American teen who dated Joran and says he wasn‘t violent at all, even spent three weeks living with her family in the states. 

And our continuing series “Manhunt: Sex Offenders on the Loose”, our effort to find missing sex offenders before they strike again.  Our search today resumes in Alaska. 

Fred Wilkerson Lawrence, convicted in 1987 of sexually abusing a minor. 

Lawrence is 52, six feet tall, 180, not registered with the authorities.  If you‘ve got any information about where he is, please call the Alaska Department of Public Safety, 907-269-0396.

Be right back.


ABRAMS:  Coming up, serious allegations in Aruba.  A local paper reporting that a young woman plans to come forward, accusing Joran van der Sloot of drugging and making unwanted sexual advances.  First here‘s the news.


ABRAMS:  We‘re back.  New and potentially serious developments in Aruba.  A local paper reporting that a young Aruban woman is planning on going to authorities and saying that Joran van der Sloot, the only suspect in Natalee Holloway‘s disappearance, gave her a date rape drug and then forced himself on her. 

Joining me now is Art Wood, a private investigator who‘s working with Aruba‘s “Diario” newspaper.  Art actually spoke to the young woman‘s attorney and “Diario” ran the story this morning.  Thanks very much for coming on the program.  We appreciate it.  Tell me what it is that the attorney said to you. 

ART WOOD, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR:  Good evening, Dan.  First of all, I met with the attorney yesterday.  The attorney advised me that this courageous young woman, 17 years old, is ready to come forward.  She‘s ready and willing to make allegations against Joran van der Sloot.  She said that she was raped and given drugs by Joran and that she knows of two other young girls, classmates, or friends of hers who had the same experience. 

ABRAMS:  Now, is she going to go forward in a civil lawsuit or is she going to go to the authorities and say it‘s time to file criminal charges? 

WOOD:  Dan, listen, she‘s already been to authorities here.  She just hasn‘t been to the police or the prosecutor yet.  The child advocate from Aruba has taken a statement from her and she is going to the police and hopefully, the prosecutor will bring charges against Joran. 

ABRAMS:  So again, the authorities you‘re talking about is this child advocate? 

WOOD:  That‘s right.  That‘s part of the Aruban authorities and also it‘s very important that other young women, if they‘ve had any experience with Joran van der Sloot or any of these other people—other suspects here, and if they have been raped or given drugs by these people, please come forward. 

ABRAMS:  Let me ask you Art.  I mean do you find it a little bit troublesome that the person‘s only coming forward now?  Meaning, I can understand why they wouldn‘t want to come forward before.  This is a very private matter.  It always is in these types of cases.  But we‘re now talking about months after Natalee went missing, months after Joran van der Sloot was arrested.

WOOD:  Well, Dan, listen, I don‘t think it‘s strange at all.  You‘ll find in many sexual molestation cases, the victims don‘t come forward for up to years sometimes, especially if they had been given a date rape drug.  There‘s a stigma shame that shouldn‘t be attached to rape and the younger the victim, the later they often come forward. 

ABRAMS:  Now, is she going to—very quickly, is she going to be willing to give her name, et cetera, to the authorities? 

WOOD:  Well, she‘s a juvenile under the Aruban system and she doesn‘t want to be identified, but of course the authorities will have her name. 

ABRAMS:  Right.  Right.  I don‘t mean in the press, et cetera.  OK.  All right.  Art, thanks a lot for coming on the program.  Appreciate it. 

Coming up, if true, these are some serious allegations against Joran van der Sloot.  The question, could these allegations be used against him, for example, if he‘s tried in connection with Natalee‘s disappearance?  We‘ll ask an Aruban attorney. 

And we‘ll hear from an American family who knows Joran, spent the holidays with him, spent some time with them at their home.  They have a very, very different view of Joran. 

Your e-mails  Please include your name and where you‘re writing from.  I respond at the end of the show.


ABRAMS:  Coming up, an Aruban girl reportedly ready to come forward and say Joran van der Sloot drugged and made unwanted sexual advances.  What effect could that have on the Natalee Holloway case?  Stay with us.


ABRAMS:  We‘re back with more on the developments out of Aruba that a young Aruban woman is planning to tell authorities that Joran van der Sloot, the lead suspect in Natalee Holloway‘s disappearance, drugged and forced himself on her months ago.  Local paper “Diario” is citing her attorney as their source.  So how would that affect the current investigation and maybe any future charges?

Joining me now is MSNBC analyst, former FBI investigator, Clint van Zandt and Aruban attorney Chris Lejuez.  Mr. Lejuez, let me start with you.  As a legal matter, if there are other allegations out there like this and if Joran van der Sloot is tried for Natalee Holloway‘s murder, could they use these against him? 

CHRIS LEJUEZ, ARUBAN ATTORNEY:  Well, first of all, if she files—if this young lady files a criminal complaint, perhaps the prosecutor will have that as a—or use that as a reason to re-detain Joran van der Sloot or detain him again on the basis of the new complaint and that would mean that they would have to take him away from the prison where he is now, put him back in the jail at the police station and start all over again on this new complaint, on this new offense.  That will automatically, according to our law, stop the time for the first pretrial detention, which means that they can go well over the 160 day period, that it would normally that before you have to go to trial.

ABRAMS:  And what about as a—I mean here, there are specific rules about when you can admit prior—quote—“bad acts.”  What is the rule in Aruba with regard to using other allegations like this against someone? 

LEJUEZ:  They could use prior allegations against the person in Aruba if they admit that it happened.  If they didn‘t—if they don‘t admit that it happened, they would have to charge him all over again.  When he goes to trial, he will go to trial for both offenses.  The problem is, I guess, that in the first case, with the first offense, we don‘t know yet if the prosecutor will be able to have a case against him, so perhaps she needs more time.  She could buy time by re-detaining Joran van der Sloot on the second offense and extending that way, the pretrial detention and have some more time to do investigation work...


LEJUEZ:  ... investigation work while he‘s still in detention. 

ABRAMS:  Clint, you were hearing discussions, rumors, et cetera, about just this type of allegation when you were down in Aruba, right? 

VAN ZANDT:  Yes, I did, Dan.  I picked this up, you know, shortly after I got in country last week.  You know, it wasn‘t up to me to break this information because I didn‘t want law enforcement to suggest that we had any how way, shape or form compromised their investigation.  But people close to the case, investigators, police on the street and others have suggested that there were multiple women who have similar stories that have yet to come forward.  Should this be the case, as you well know and as your other guest is suggesting, these could be entirely independent charges that he could be prosecuted on, having nothing whatsoever to do with the disappearance of Natalee. 

ABRAMS:  And I assume, Mr. Lejuez, that it‘s a big deal if you make something like this up, right?  I mean look, the claim is going to be Joran van der Sloot I‘m confident is going to deny these allegations.  If someone goes to the authorities and reports that something like this happened and it didn‘t happen, they could be prosecuted, right? 

LEJUEZ:  They could, yes.  But the point is on sexual offenses, the burden of proof is very low, so they have a very good chance of proving it in a trial, rather than proving it like a murder or something like that. 

ABRAMS:  All right.  Clint Van Zandt, thanks again.  Appreciate it.  Chris Lejuez, appreciate you coming on the program. 

VAN ZANDT:  Thanks, Dan. 

ABRAMS:  Now yesterday, another network apparently sneaked a tape recorder into the home of Cathy Cadmus and her family.  Remember them?  They befriended Joran and his family while on vacation in Aruba two years ago.  Joran spent three weeks of his summer vacation at their house.  Remember we talked—it‘s clearly an effort to repeat our exclusive on camera interview with the family last week—didn‘t work.

So we thought that in light of these new allegations that could surface against Joran, it is probably a good time, though, to replay a portion of what remains our exclusive interview.  Remember I asked Shelby Cadmus how she felt when she heard two months ago that Joran was the lead suspect in Natalee Holloway‘s disappearance.


SHELBY CADMUS, FRIEND OF JORAN VAN DER SLOOT:  He‘s a good looking kid.  He could have girls approach him easily.  There‘s no use for him.  He doesn‘t have to do anything to get a girl.  He just has to be himself and...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  As a parent, I found him very protective of her, too.  I found a very gentle-type soul.  I didn‘t find someone who was aggressive and I don‘t think he ever got aggressive with her in a romantic sense. 

ABRAMS:  Did you ever have anyone—you or anyone you know who saw Joran, if he had been rejected, for example.  Was there temper on him, et cetera?


C. CADMUS:  You rejected him at some point and he was fine. 

ABRAMS:  Did you?

S. CADMUS:  Yes...

ABRAMS:  Tell me about that.

S. CADMUS:  Times where he would—I wouldn‘t be as attracted to him and the more I—he lived with me for three weeks so obviously, you know you start fighting and just minor fights, so you left your cereal bowl on the table.  You have to clean up after yourself.  Just minor fights.  Obviously we had become frustrated with each other, living with each other for three weeks and no violence, no anger at all.  Just very calm and subdued and...

ABRAMS:  And when you would reject advances, it sounds like mom is suggesting that there was some point when you were no longer interested in him. 

S. CADMUS:  Yes, not—I was—towards the end of the week, I wasn‘t—end of the three weeks, I wasn‘t interested in him in a romantic way.  More of just friends and we got to know each other more...

ABRAMS:  And what was his...

S. CADMUS:  ... and I saw him as a friend.

ABRAMS:  How did he react to that?  How did he react to that?

S. CADMUS:  I think he felt the same way about me, so...

ABRAMS:  No, again, I‘m—but no sense that there was the possibility for outburst, et cetera...

S. CADMUS:  None at all.  If anything, he just wanted to hug me and say I‘m sorry things didn‘t work out.  Just very cuddling person, a very loving person. 

ABRAMS:  How did you leave it at the end of the three weeks? 

S. CADMUS:  Friends.  Kept in touch. 


ABRAMS:  These new allegations really, so serious that we thought it was important to just make sure we‘re presenting you with both sides of this until we know more about these supposed new allegations against Joran van der Sloot.  We shall see. 

Coming up, many of you responding to a guest from last night who suggested that pregnant women might avoid getting killed if they pick their boyfriends a little better. 

And our continuing series, “Manhunt: Sex Offenders on the Loose”, our effort to find missing sex offenders before they strike.  Authorities in Alaska need your help finding William Stewart.  Convicted of sexually abusing a minor and sexual assault.  He‘s 70, 5‘11”, 220, has not registered with the authorities.

If you‘ve got any information about where he is, please call the Alaska Department of Public Safety at 907-269-0396.

Be right back.


ABRAMS:  I‘ve had my say, now it‘s time for “Your Rebuttal”.  Last night, after reporting that police had found pregnant 24-year-old Latoyia Figueroa‘s body, we told you her story isn‘t the exception that it should be.  That homicide is the leading cause of death among pregnant women. 

One of my guests, criminal profiler Pat Brown, said that women should pick better men and not get pregnant by men they don‘t trust and shouldn‘t get involved with psychopaths.  I told her it was ridiculous and I thought she was blaming the women. 

Many of you agreed including Karen Roy in Rocky Hill, Connecticut.  “I think all women have to applaud you for disagreeing with Pat Brown on the idea that women must make better choices.”

From Novi, Michigan, Tom Thornton, “Thank you for your segment on how not to get murdered if you‘re a pregnant woman.  Do not marry a psychopath.  This brilliant advice from your profiler guest has moved up to number two on my list of important things to teach my children.  Number one is to be sure to wear clean underwear in case you‘re in an accident.”

Michaela Connell in Washington, D.C.  “Let‘s just say, for example, I meet, fall in love and marry a seemingly wonderful man let‘s say named Scott from Modesto, who does indeed want children.  If he changes his mind about having children, when I enter my third trimester and murders me, is it still my fault?”

Kathy Price in Arroyo Grande, California, “I completely agree you‘re your guest that women should be more careful about who they make babies with.  Before a girl drops her drawers, she should think through the whole thing.”

Cheryl Stephens, “Perhaps they will wear signs to warn us or maybe the profilers can give us some clues how to recognize them.  I know one way.  Avoid profilers who blame victims for not recognizing the danger they‘re in.”

Also last night, a 17-year-old boy convicted as an adult, stabbing a 13-year-old girl in the face and neck.  She survived and she‘s OK now.  When her family sued for money, his parents were found 70 percent responsible for his crime, $7 million worth.  We asked does it make sense that he‘s tried as an adult and yet his parents are then found more responsible than he is when it comes to money damages? 

Debbie in Pennsylvania, “Having had experience with alerting authorities of my child‘s propensity to possibly commit crime and my inability to prevent it, in my state, I learned that children 14 and older have their own civil rights and I was powerless to interfere.”

Finally, Missy Hall, “Wasn‘t the civil case brought by the parents?  I‘m sure they‘re in pain, but how hypocritical is it of them to blame both parties one for punishment and another for money?”

Finally, to all of you who wrote in about my hoarse voice last night, thank you.  Want to tell you how much I appreciate your concern.  I think that I‘m feeling better—I sound better, right?  I think so. 

Your e-mails abramsreport—one word --  We go through them at the end of the show. 

Coming up, what one robbery suspect apparently did not learn from Goldilocks?  Our “OH PLEAs!” is next!


ABRAMS:  “OH PLEAs!”—it seems a drug suspect in Arnold, Pennsylvania, didn‘t learn anything from Goldilocks and the three little bears.  Like Goldilocks, 32-year-old Ernest Boyd allegedly broke into a home last week and, well, then forgot to leave.  Boyd, like Goldie, found the bed was just right and apparently he fell asleep. 

The owner of the house returned and tried to wake him.  It didn‘t work, apparently.  So, she called police.  Well that‘s about it for the comparisons to Goldilocks.  Police discovered some white powder and rocks in Boyd‘s pocket, not ingredients for a gingerbread house.  Among other offenses, Boyd was charged with drug possession and robbery. 

That does it for us tonight.  Coming up next, “HARDBALL” with Chris Matthews. 

Remember, our e-mail address,  Please include your name and where you‘re writing from because we really can‘t use the letters if you don‘t.  I love them...



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