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'The Situation' with Tucker Carlson for Aug. 23

Guest: Pat Brown

JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST, “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY”:  I know somebody else who‘s fascinating.  I grew up with him, knowing him as the fifth Beatle.  You know him as Tucker Carlson.  Tucker Carlson and THE SITUATION starts right now—Tucker. 


SCARBOROUGH:  What time is it, baby?

CARLSON:  It‘s time for me to be angry about them cutting me out of all those royalty deals with the Beatles.  Thank you, Joe. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.

CARLSON:  I‘ll tell you what time it is.  It‘s 11 p.m. in Virginia Beach, Virginia.  It‘s 10 p.m. in Virginia, Minnesota.  It‘s 8 p.m. in Virginia City, Nevada.  We‘re live with the latest news available on cable television. 

That includes late details on Olivia Newton-John‘s missing boyfriend, 65 pregnant girls at the same high school, the most famous goodfella of them all back on “The Crime Blotter,” and of course, your voice mails. 

But first, here to break it all down, the jewel of early morning radio, Air America‘s Rachel Maddow. 


CARLSON:  Good to see you, Rachel.  I haven‘t seen you in awhile. 

MADDOW:  Welcome back. 

CARLSON:  Thank you very much. 

Well, TV preacher Pat Robertson got himself back into the mainstream media cycle Monday night when he used his pulpit in the Christian Broadcasting Network to call for the assassination of left wing Venezuela president, Hugo Chavez, the controller of vast oil supplies and long an irritant to the United States.

Venezuelan officials called Robertson‘s declaration a terrorist threat.  The Bush administration quickly distanced itself from Robertson‘s suggestion.  And Chavez responded, offering to sell cheap gas directly to America‘s poor. 

Now, Pat Robertson, right after 9/11, seemed to blame the U.S. for those terrorist attacks, almost four years ago, thereby bumping himself forever from my Christmas card list.  I‘ll never send them to a man who said something that offensive. 

However, I‘m almost tempting to, watching the grotesque media overreaction to this story today.  The press hates evangelicals.  There‘s really no debate about that.  This is not a huge news story.  And the only reason...

MADDOW:  Hates evangelicals?

CARLSON:  It‘s true. 

MADDOW:  Wow. 

CARLSON:  And the only reason we have it on the top of our show is because it‘s impossible not to respond to the media outcry.  This guy represents nobody but himself.  He doesn‘t work for the administration.  He says something far out, but not that far out, and it signifies nothing except one man‘s opinion. 

MADDOW:  You‘ve got a cleric in the United States calling for the assassination of foreign leaders on U.S. television.  They air it three times a day on the ABC Family Channel.  If he were anything other than Christian, do you think that this would not be a scandal?

CARLSON:  Well, I don‘t know.  He was calling for the government assassination. 

MADDOW:  Covert operatives, go in there, take him out.  Cheaper than a war.  Kill the guy. 

CARLSON:  He‘s calling for the U.S. government to do it. 

MADDOW:  Yes. 

CARLSON:  He‘s not calling for vigilantes to come and kill Chavez. 

And may I say lost in all this, is the fact that Hugo Chavez, while I don‘t think he ought to be assassinated, and I don‘t agree with what Robertson said, is a serious creep.  And there is evidence that he supported Osama bin Laden directly.  His former pilot said that Hugo Chavez has given a million dollars to al Qaeda. 

There is—it‘s beyond dispute that he had some of his political opponents, at least 12 of them, murdered in Venezuela, pro-democracy demonstrators.  He‘s a friend to Saddam Hussein, to Libya, to Iran.  I mean, he‘s a bad guy. 

MADDOW:  Listen, if you want to make the case against Hugo Chavez on the basis of the fact that Pat Robertson is calling for his assassination, I think it‘s a bad time to make your case.

I do think that it ought to be at the top of the news, that a guy who was former Republican presidential candidate, the founder of... 

CARLSON:  In 1988. 

MADDOW:  Right.  Founder of Christian Coalition, very connected in Republican circles, is a guy who‘s calling for the assassination of foreign leaders. 

I mean, it doesn‘t say thou shalt not assassinate in the Bible, maybe, but it is against U.S. law.  He‘s calling for, basically, a terrorist action, and everybody in the United States said, “Oh, kooky Pat Robertson,” as if he‘s Michael Savage or somebody like Ann Coulter that‘s completely beyond the pale.  He‘s a guy who‘s in the mainstream of Republican politics. 

CARLSON:  He is kooky, though, and everyone believes that.  He blamed the U.S. for 9/11.  He is not a member, you know—he‘s not sitting on the board...

MADDOW:  He agreed with Jerry Falwell, and Jerry Falwell blamed me for 9/11.  He asked for nuclear bomb to be in Foggy Bottom at the State Department.  He said that Bush told him there were going to be no casualties in the invasion of Iraq.  When do we stop putting them on television?

CARLSON:  Which is why I‘m not defending Pat Robertson.  I‘m merely attacking the press for giving undue attention to this guy. 

MADDOW:  And following his lead to go attack Hugo Chavez, which I think... 

CARLSON:  I‘m not.  I‘m just saying Hugo Chavez is a creep.  Merely pointing that out. 

MADDOW:  Pat Robertson, bigger creep. 

CARLSON:  No, he‘s not a bigger creep. 

MADDOW:  He is. 

CARLSON:  He didn‘t murder his opponents like Hugo Chavez did.  I mean, it‘s one thing to say something far out on television, another thing to actually kill people as Chavez has. 

MADDOW:  But how about advocating killing your opponent?

CARLSON:  I don‘t know.  It‘s not as bad as actually killing them. 

That‘s my stand, anyway.

President Bush took a vacation from his vacation today in Idaho, where he responded directly to the anti-war protest of grieving mom turned left wing activist, Cindy Sheehan. 

Among other things, the president said again that American troops in Iraq were keeping America safe at home.  He praised the stalled Iraqi constitutional process, and he defended Sheehan‘s right to protest the war. 

He concluded, however, that dissenters do not reflect the feelings of most military families and advocate a policy that would weaken the United States. 

Now, last night on this show—I know you weren‘t here.  I don‘t know if you saw it, but I in effect defended Cindy Sheehan, by saying, you know, she‘s a grieving mother.  And I don‘t agree with her, and she‘s aligned with some bad people, but you know, I give her a pass.  Her son died. 

MADDOW:  Right.

CARLSON:  Then I—should have done more research.  I was on vacation.  It‘s my fault.  I read this.  April 27, 2005, Cindy Sheehan, at a rally, San Francisco State University, quote, “America has been killing people since we first stepped on this continent.  We‘ve been responsible for death and destruction.” 

Quote, “This country is not worth dying for.  Had I known all this,” she had, “I would never have let my son try and defend this morally repugnant system we have.” 

It‘s disgusting.  I will never again defend Cindy Sheehan. 

MADDOW:  Has she—has she lost her moral standing?  Has her son no longer died for this country?

CARLSON:  Her son died.  That does not give her moral standing, A.  B, she attacks... 

MADDOW:  So you changed your mind since yesterday. 

CARLSON:  She attacks this country, as not worth dying for and morally repugnant.  She‘s morally repugnant for saying it.  I‘m ashamed of myself for defending her.  I retract it. 

MADDOW:  Really?

CARLSON:  Yes, I am.

MADDOW:  You retract your support for this woman...


MADDOW:  ... even though the basis of your support was that her son died. 


MADDOW:  It doesn‘t matter.  He was wiped away... 

CARLSON:  No, no, her son‘s death is not wiped away.  My overly sentimental heart-felt rather than intellectual defense of her because I felt sad for her, and I still do, does not obviate her attack on our country.  You can be against this war, as I am, and not be against America.  She has gone over the edge, attacking the war and our country itself.  And that‘s wrong. 

MADDOW:  Sheehan has views that you disagree with, that you think are odious.  If she has moral standing on the basis of the fact that her son died, she has moral standing on the basis of the fact that her son died.  The attempt to isolate and smear Cindy Sheehan is the thing that is the huge backlash in the story.  That the story has become the attempt to smear Cindy Sheehan. 

What about the other moms who are out there in Crawford who are protesting?  What about Michele Duford (ph)?  What about Lynn Braddock (ph), all these moms who are coming from all over the country?  The fact is that they are responding to Cindy Sheehan being smeared, which is disgusting. 

CARLSON:  OK.  Look, I take them seriously.  I am opposed to this war.  I am a conservative who is opposed to it, and I‘ve said that since day one and take a lot of heat for it, frankly.

However, calling this country morally repugnant, saying this country is not worth dying for, those are disgusting things to say, and I don‘t support anyone who says it. 

MADDOW:  If you disagree with her, that‘s fine.  The fact is, longest president vacation in 36 years, approval rating, 35 percent, three points lower than Nixon was at at the height of Watergate. 

He‘s got—he‘s got the moms of dead soldiers following him everywhere he goes.  They‘re showing up in Utah, the reddest state in the country.  He‘s in big trouble.  If you want to make Cindy Sheehan the problem in response to that. 

CARLSON:  No.  I‘m not.  I‘m...

MADDOW:  It‘s gross.

CARLSON:  I‘m merely saying this country is worth dying for.  And I think it‘s wrong that she said that. 

MADDOW:  You can disagree with her, but she is not the problem. 

CARLSON:  Well, crime stories pay, at least on TV.  We have a “Crime Blotter” right here on this show every night for a reason. 

Well, CBS Television will capitalize on the national fascination with the BTK killer with a made for TV movie about the 31-year pursuit of serial murderer Dennis Rader, which ended last week with his sentencing.  The movie is being shot in Canada as we speak.  It will be in the can in five weeks and on the air October 9. 

I have to say, I think there‘s something ghoulish.  We do a “Crime Blotter” every night, and there‘s nothing wrong with that.  Crime is interesting.  Crime is useful to learn about. 

However, you can cross a line, hanging on every word from some publicity obsessed serial killer like Dennis Rader.  And you know, I don‘t think it should be banned or anything like that, but I‘m not going to watch. 

MADDOW:  Well, but you know, we are transfixed by crime.  I mean, yes, we have the “Crime Blotter” here, but there‘s also—I mean, what is Court TV there for?  What is the Aruba story all about?  I mean, we‘re absolutely transfixed by crime in this country, by seeing the horrible things that we do to one another as people. 

And, you know, they‘re making three or four, what is it, films about 9/11.

CARLSON:  Right.

MADDOW:  That are all in development right now.  We make films about Jack the Ripper.  Half the time we end up rooting for the killer, because they make them the good guy. 

We happen to be transfixed by crime.  We have been for a long time. 

I‘ve always thought it was gross, but it‘s the way we are. 

CARLSON:  You know, we‘re going to miss lesson with the BTK murders, and the lesson is this.  Dennis Rader was a dog catcher, OK?  He was a code enforcement officer, a dog catcher and a code enforcement officer.  Is it really a surprise he turned out to have a deeply twisted private life?

MADDOW:  I think the fact that the BTK killer, sure, he was a dog catcher. 


MADDOW:  He was also a leader in his church.


MADDOW:  Now we‘ve got Dennis Rader.  We‘ve got Pat Robertson calling for assassination. 

CARLSON:  Come on. 

MADDOW:  There‘s a crisis in Christianity.  We‘ve got to have the moderate Christians speaking out against these kooks. 

CARLSON:  There‘s a crisis among dog catchers.  I just—I don‘t like dog catchers.  I‘m going to take a stand.  I just don‘t like them. 

MADDOW:  All right.  I will stand—I will stand with you on that if nothing else. 

CARLSON:  Good.  Good.  OK. 

MADDOW:  Probably nothing else. 

CARLSON:  Well, something less than wholesome is going on in Canton, Ohio.  The “Canton Repository” newspaper reports that at the town‘s Tinton High School, 65 of 490 female students are now pregnant.  That‘s more than 13 percent. 

The school has launched a three-pronged educational response that focuses on the three p‘s: pregnancy, prevention, and parenting. 

Rachel, I‘m not sure how far they‘re going to get.  I‘m quoting now from a wire story today, quote, “School officials are not sure what caused so many pregnancies.” 

MADDOW:  I know. 

CARLSON:  Here‘s the problem.  There‘s just not a great stigma attached to out of wedlock births, not a great enough stigma.  And the reason—I don‘t think you should stigmatize people in general.  I don‘t think you should hurt people‘s feelings.  I don‘t think you ought to be mean. 

However, the consequences of out of wedlock births are so profound and so terrible, that I think there should be a profound stigma attached.  I think kids ought to say, gosh, I don‘t want to get pregnant out of wedlock, because people will look down on me. 

MADDOW:  Right.  Right.  And the question—and this is one of these situations where both liberals and conservatives agree that teen pregnancy is a bad.  It‘s bad for the kids.  It‘s bad for the teenage moms.  It‘s bad for the school, probably, with this many kids pregnant.  It‘s actually going to affect what goes on with the school and testing and all those kind of things.

But how do you get there?  How do you stop teen pregnancy?  And kids have been told don‘t have sex since they were doing it in model T‘s.  I mean, we‘ve always said, don‘t have sex until you‘re ready.  Don‘t have sex until you‘re older, until you‘re married, and people have sex anyway.

And so what liberals say is, if you‘re going to have sex, you should be allowed to have birth control. 

CARLSON:  Yes.  I think—I don‘t think teen pregnancy is the problem, actually.  I think out of wedlock births are the problem.  I don‘t think there‘s anything wrong with getting married when you‘re really young. 

MADDOW:  So you‘d be just as upset if there were 60 women in Canton who were 40 and having kids?

CARLSON:  No, not just as upset.  But I think it‘s—I do think it‘s a problem.  I don‘t think there‘s anything wrong with getting married at 18.  I really don‘t, if you‘re pregnant.  People have been doing it for millennia.  People do it around the world. 

MADDOW:  Right.

CARLSON:  I don‘t think there‘s any intrinsic value in waiting until you‘re 38 to get married.  I just don‘t. 

MADDOW:  Well, but whether or not it‘s out of wedlock birth or whether it‘s teen birth, the question is, if you want there to be fewer 16-year-olds having babies in places like Canton, how do you make fewer 16-year-olds have babies?

If you tell people it‘s bad to get pregnant, you can try to create that stigma.  But that‘s kind of a hard public policy to follow.  Really, what you ought to say is don‘t have sex until you‘re ready, until you‘re older, until you‘re married, until you‘re in a relationship, until you can handle it, but if you‘re going to, here‘s what you need to know about birth control.  And we can‘t talk about birth control. 

CARLSON:  It hasn‘t worked very well.  We‘ve been doing that since I was in eighth grade, and it hasn‘t worked. 

MADDOW:  There‘s less contraceptive education and less family planning information out there than there was before the Christian conservatives got a strangle hold on the Republican.... 

CARLSON:  If you don‘t know how to use a condom, you‘re too dumb to be having sex in the first place. 

MADDOW:  And if you‘re on the school board, and you‘re trying to keep condoms out of your school, you‘re too dumb to be on the school board. 

CARLSON:  If you can‘t get your hands on a condom in America in 2005, I don‘t know, go back to your PlayStation. 

Rachel Maddow, thank you very much.

Still to come, “The Outsider,” Max Kellerman, awaits, lurking in the shadows even as we speak, preparing to defend the indefensible.  Max, which of the topics are you most excited about this evening?

MAX KELLERMAN:  First, I want to know, what is this condom?  I like this—I like this cadaver in the museum situation.  I think that‘s very interesting. 

CARLSON:  Speaking of defending the defenseless, you can defend that, I have new respect for you. 

KELLERMAN:  Give it my best shot. 

CARLSON:  We‘ll see.

KELLERMAN:  That‘ll be the first respect you‘ve shown (ph).

CARLSON:  Also ahead, the mystery continues in the search for Olivia Newton-John‘s missing boyfriend.  Was Patrick McDermott murdered at sea or did he fake his own disappearance because of a troublesome relationship with his ex-wife?  Details ahead.  THE SITUATION rolls on.


CARLSON:  Coming up, a central character from the movie “Goodfellas” once again in trouble with the law, this time for real. 

Plus, police now have a person of interest in the search for missing Ohio model Julie Popovich.  “The Crime Blotter,” next.


CARLSON:  How dumb do you have to be to walk through the checkpoint at the airport?  Welcome back.  Time for tales of wrongdoing and justice served.  It‘s “THE SITUATION Crime Blotter,” our nightly summary of who done it and who caught them. 

Joining me tonight to look behind the scenes of the major law and order stories of the day, criminal profiler Pat Brown.  Welcome, Pat. 


CARLSON:  First up, the case of the missing model.  New information tonight in the search for 20-year-old Julie Popovich, last seen leaving a Columbus, Ohio, bar on August 11.  Police say there is a person of interest in the case and that foul play is a possibility. 

And now a wealthy Pennsylvania businessman has offered a reward for any information leading to this case being solved. 

Pat, how common is this?  I mean, you get the impression watching TV that disappear out of bars all the time.  Do they?

BROWN:  Yes, actually, they do, Tucker.  That‘s one of the main places that serial killers hang around, because they know if you can get women drunk or if they just get drunk on their own and you can get them away from the herd, you can snatch them up or you can encourage them into your car.  And that‘s the last you see of them. 

The biggest mistake she made, let me tell you, Tucker.  The biggest mistake she made was doing this in Columbus, Ohio, instead of Aruba, because none of the national media is going to want to want to go hang around there for very long, because you know... 

CARLSON:  Let me defend Columbus.  I once spent an afternoon at a tiki bar in Columbus and had a pretty terrific time. 

BROWN:  Only an afternoon.  But you‘re not going to stay there for a month and do a story. 

CARLSON:  That‘s a good point.  So at what point when someone is missing in a case like this do we assume that significant foul play has taken place?

BROWN:  Well, a lot of it has to do with what their behavior has been in the past.  If they are the type of person that will not disappear for any reason, then you really want to get after it right away.  You want to do it within hours if you can. 

But that‘s the problem the police have.  They have to decide, is this girl the type of person who might disappear on her own or go off on a little spree someplace and not let anybody know?  Or is she really the type that wouldn‘t do that, and we‘ve better get on it quick, because she only might have a couple of hours to live?

CARLSON:  All right.  On to another missing persons case, the disappearance of Olivia Newton-John‘s boyfriend.  Still no trace of Patrick McDermott, who set off on an overnight fishing trip on June 30 and never returned.  He is wallet, driver‘s license, keys and passport found on the boat, his silver Hyundai parked at the marina.  

Authorities say they have not ruled out a voluntary disappearance. 

Certainly, we in the press have not ruled it out. 

I saw today a private investigator on our air, here on MSNBC, suggesting that this man is still alive and possibly in Vegas.  And I thought to myself, what if he‘s not?  What if he‘s dead?  What are his kids going to think when he washes up at some point?  Why do we have any indication this guy might still be alive?

BROWN:  Well, I think we have—that‘s exactly what I was saying, your past behavior really does cause police to either go after things or just ignore it.  Even Olivia didn‘t apparently worry too much that he was missing for a little while, so apparently, this is not unusual for the guy.

So if you want—if you go missing yourself, you want to make sure your past behavior is really, really good or nobody‘s coming looking for you.

CARLSON:  But he left behind his identification...

BROWN:  Right.

CARLSON:  ... his passport, his money and his car.  How easy is it to go start a new life with no money and no I.D.?

BROWN:  Oh, it‘s amazing what people can do.  I mean, there are many cases of people just vanishing.  And that is exactly what they want to do.  They want to make sure, you think some foul play has occurred so that you will not go look for them in Mexico.  And that is where he might be hanging around right now.  We just don‘t know, and the police have to decide.  “How much time do you want to get into it, if this guy really did just vanish on his own?” 

CARLSON:  I hope he‘s in Guadalajara.  I hope we don‘t find them.  

Many people are going to owe that family many apologies.

If that wasn‘t weird enough for you, in a case of life imitating art, the former Mobster who inspired the movie “Goodfellas” back on the wrong side of the law.

BROWN:  What a surprise.

CARLSON:  Henry Hill had gone straight and was working as a chef in an Italian restaurant in Nebraska.  Now he‘s been found guilty of attempted possession of methamphetamine.  He was also caught with cocaine walking through an airport, police say.  He pled out at a lesser charge.

This is a guy who was involved with the Mafia for many years.  How dumb do you have to be to walk through the checkpoint at the airport, the magnetometer, with two vials of cocaine and crystal meth?

BROWN:  Here‘s a guy with a lot of arrogance.  Here‘s a criminal who‘s been a criminal for all of his life.  And just because you go give him a new name and a new place to live doesn‘t mean he‘s going to stop his criminal behavior. 

As a matter of fact, you can get away with a lot of criminal behavior when the authorities are actually hiding you and don‘t want to let anybody know where you are.  So you‘ve kind of been given a clean slate and a free ride.  So he probably just let that arrogance just get out of control and slipped up there.

CARLSON:  And do you think it‘s sort of weird, Pat, that here‘s a very famous man, author of his own cook book, and the subject of this great movie, who‘s working as a chef in a restaurant in Nebraska?

BROWN:  Well, it‘s as good a place as any.  I mean, it is a rather bizarre case.  But when you‘re going to start over life, you start over with new identity, pick something, you know, and have some fun with it, and try not to screw up again. 

CARLSON:  I would be a cabana boy in South Beach or something like that.  Pat Brown, criminal profiler and one of our favorites.  Thanks for joining us. 

BROWN:  Thanks, Tucker. 

CARLSON:  Coming up, stories you‘ll see here first, including a new study that may shake up the unending debate about abortion in this country. 

Plus, from the rights of the unborn to the rights of cadavers, does anyone have the right to use dead bodies as art?  We‘ve scoured the land and find someone who will defend it.  “The Outsider” is next.


CARLSON:  Welcome back.  Time for another meeting with “The Outsider”, a man who used to get his news from “Beavis and Butthead,” before shifting to reruns of “South Park.”  Armed only with an animated knowledge of world events, he brings us animated arguments every night on a series of actual news stories.  Ladies and gentlemen, best coiffed man in the opinion business, ESPN Radio and HBO Boxing host Max Kellerman. 

KELLERMAN:  Quite a literary flare there, Tucker.  I have to say, I was disappointed with Henry Hill cutting the garlic, because he said in “Goodfellas” that Pauly had a system.  He had a razor.  He would slice it so thin, it would liquefy in the pan.  He said it was a good system.  Why isn‘t he using it?

CARLSON:  He may be in his restaurant in Omaha.

KELLERMAN:  Or back in his prison cell. 

CARLSON:  Poor guy. 

Well, there‘s a murky situation right now at Arlington National Cemetery.  The Pentagon offers families of those killed in Iraq options of headstones engraved with either Enduring Freedom or Operation Iraqi Freedom, at no extra cost. 

Although the Pentagon insists it‘s strictly optional, some grieving families say they never granted permission for headstones like that.  The owner of the company that engraves the headstones says he thinks the whole program smells like politics. 

Well, Max, war is political.  It‘s always political.  War is the end result of a series of political decisions, always and everywhere.  And so we can‘t be too surprised if wars wind up with political-sounding sloganized names like Operation Enduring Freedom.  And by the way, I don‘t think that‘s such an undignified to have on your tombstone. 

KELLERMAN:  What about the fact that the families, that it just shows up on the tombstone and the families don‘t give permission for it?

CARLSON:  Well, I think that‘s appalling.  I think that possibly has happened accidentally.  But the point is, the Pentagon policy is to get the consent of the families before putting anything on the tombstone.  And I just think of all the embarrassing things you can wind up with for an epitaph, Operation Enduring Freedom is just—is not so bad. 

KELLERMAN:  It does seem like, hey, you have the option of having something kind of nice on your tombstone.  If I say, “Tucker, you‘re either a handsome or smart man.”  Either one, you‘d probably take, right?  But if you don‘t want to be called either, you should have the right to be called neither. 

CARLSON:  Yes, that‘s a good point.  But I think the Pentagon is at least claiming you have the right not to put that on your tombstone if you want.  And I think people who hate the Iraq war are simply looking for something to get mad about. 

KELLERMAN:  Except soldiers who didn‘t want to be there and were against it, especially it would seem offensive is something like “Iraqi Freedom” was on the tombstone. 

CARLSON:  I think we‘re reaching a period of harmonious consensus here on this. 

KELLERMAN:  Yes I know. 

CARLSON:  On to the next one.  You can smoke them if you‘ve got them in New Jersey, the many wonderful restaurants and bars in the states, but you can no longer smoke cigarettes in college dorm rooms. 

Thursday, Governor Richard Codey has signed into law a ban on smoking in dorms of public and private colleges here in New Jersey.  And that‘s the problem, Max.  Government doesn‘t own private colleges.  Government has no right and no place telling private colleges, what legal activities can or can‘t take place in dorm rooms. 

Moreover, this is going to destroy the educational and socializing experience college freshmen have experienced for generations, and that is sitting around smoking cigarettes and having a bull session, living about life.  It‘s just not the same chewing on carrot sticks. 

KELLERMAN:  Look, I mean, you know, they do the same thing with marijuana, but technically they‘re not allowed.  Right?  I‘m sure they will still be smoking, and technically they won‘t be allowed to do it. 

And you know what?  It‘s not such a bad thing.  It‘s not that smoking is bad for you.  It‘s that smoking is bad for me.  I don‘t want to smell it.  And so when it comes down to the smoking issue, I‘m always going to side with the idea that less smoking is better. 

CARLSON:  But wait a second.  If you don‘t like it, you don‘t have to go to the college that allows it.  And a private college ought to have the right to have whatever kind of eccentric rules in place it wants to, or not, because it‘s private.  That‘s what makes it distinct from a government institution, which has to abide by public law. 

KELLERMAN:  Incidentally, what‘s the smoking age right now?

CARLSON:  I think it‘s 18. 

KELLERMAN:  Because if it‘s 21, it‘s not really much of an issue, is it?

CARLSON:  No, it‘s not, but it‘s 18.  And it‘s legal, still.  It won‘t be by the time our children are grown.  But it is now.

KELLERMAN:  Thank God. 

CARLSON:  You ought to be able to do it at private colleges.  Something that ought not to be legal, you go to the Museum of Science anywhere, you expect see dead bodies of animals. 

At the Museum of Science and Industry in Tampa, one current installation features 20 human cadavers, 260 human body parts total.  The remains of dead Chinese people who were never claimed by their families or loved ones.

In the first four days, the exhibit has drawn a record 12,000 visitors to the museum.  The whole thing is being described as art. 

But it‘s not art, Max, because art is created by human beings.  It‘s the product of the creative mind of man.  The human body is not the product of the creative mind of man.  It‘s the product of God or chance or nature or whatever.  But it‘s not created by humans.  Therefore, it‘s not art.  This is not art.

KELLERMAN:  It doesn‘t have to be art to be in museum.  There‘s a museum of natural history.  There‘s a big blue—in New York City.  A big blue whale hanging from the ceiling and dinosaur bones. 

CARLSON:  And the claim doesn‘t have to be it‘s art in order for it to as an exhibit.  It is endowed with something that makes it distinct from all other objects, right?

KELLERMAN:  No, I don‘t think so.  I think every attempt to claim

there‘s some sanctity of the human body and make it different than other

animals has failed.  First, it‘s opposable thumbs.  Oh, well other primates

have opposable thumbs,

Then it‘s self-consciousness.  Well, if you put a mirror in front of a chimpanzee, it knows it‘s in the mirror.  Than it‘s, well, we are the only homo sapiens.  Well, no, in fact, it turns out that they found 100 years ago, homosapien neaderthals.  We‘re not even the only homosapiens.

So every attempt to kind of sanctify us and make us different from the animal kingdom I think has failed. 

CARLSON:  Very, very briefly, let me just appeal to your humanity here. 


CARLSON:  These are Chinese people whose bodies were unclaimed.  In other words, they‘re probably people who were executed for thought crimes in China.  You‘re not against using their bodies for entertainment?

KELLERMAN:  I find it distasteful. 

CARLSON:  Distasteful.


CARLSON:  OK.  That‘s as far as you‘ll go.  Max Kellerman, thank you. 

KELLERMAN:  Thank you, Tucker. 

CARLSON:  Stay tuned.  Still plenty more on THE SITUATION.


CARLSON (voice-over):  A sobering thought for parents.  It‘s party time.  Do you know where your college kids are?

Lip flap from the ruler of Turkmenistan.  Actually, you might want to rethink that Central Asian tour.

And, wait until you get a load the one that didn‘t get away.


CARLSON:  Plus, the latest in home decorating, when you absolutely, positively have to have furniture overnight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I‘m just trying to go out there and show people it‘s OK to be ghetto.




CARLSON:  Welcome back.

If you went to college, you probably have at least some sentimental attachment to your alma mater, so today is your annual chance to see where the old school rates because today the Princeton Review issued its list of top colleges and universities in America for the best education to the wildest parties.

Joining me now the author of that survey Robert Franek of the Princeton Review; thanks a lot for joining me.

ROBERT FRANEK, AUTHOR, “THE BEST 361 COLLEGES”:  Good to be here, Tucker.

CARLSON:  Let‘s go through the obvious one first, party schools, University of Wisconsin at Madison number one on the party school list.  How did—I mean how do you decide what‘s the best party school?

FRANEK:  Sure.  We reach directly out to students at schools.  We got a little over 110,000 respondents for our survey this year.  It rolls up into our book “The Best 361 Colleges,” so we‘re only serving the top 12 percent of four year colleges in the country.

Wisconsin, Madison we asked students alcohol consumption on campus, drug consumption on campus, hours of study spent outside of the classroom and then popular fraternities and sororities.

CARLSON:  OK, so the drugs, Hampshire College in Amherst, Massachusetts.

FRANEK:  Yes, reefer madness that‘s right.

CARLSON:  Number one dope smoking school in America.  Isn‘t that sort of an unknowable fact?

FRANEK:  Well, I don‘t think so.  I mean it‘s a qualitative survey.  We go directly to who you would consider college experts and I think we all think we know a lot about schools.  We went here.  We went there.  But it‘s been a number of years.  We go directly to kids in the classrooms, in college trenches asking them what they think about this.

CARLSON:  So, you trust the self reporting of stoners?

FRANEK:  Without question, without question.

CARLSON:  Really?

FRANEK:  Yes, yes.

CARLSON:  OK now, least happy students the Colorado School of Mines in Golden, Colorado.

FRANEK:  Yes, yes.

CARLSON:  A beer town.

FRANEK:  In a beer town exactly, exactly, yes.

CARLSON:  So how did I mean how do you get to be on the least happy student list and how do you measure that?

FRANEK:  Yes.  We‘re looking at quality of life issues overall, so food on campus, residence halls on campus, overall quality of life.  We think those things roll up into overall happiness of the students, so we go directly to kids and we ask them those questions.

CARLSON:  How unhappy are they at the Colorado school?

FRANEK:  They‘re pretty unhappy, I have to say.  I mean in addition to top of the ranking list we have a narrative profile for each of those 361 schools on the list and consistently Colorado School of Mines has come up on the top of that list, a good school academically but the mission of the book and certainly of the Princeton Review is to make sure that a kid knows before they enter school in their freshman year that they know what they can expect, certainly in the classroom but then outside the classroom by way of parties and quality of life overall.

CARLSON:  So what is the Colorado School of Mines?  Not to go back to that but that‘s a pretty harsh distinction, the least happy students.  I mean their PR office must go berserk when they see that.  Do they call you?

FRANEK:  Yes.  Yes, absolutely they call us, I mean as well as the PR office from the party schools and the reefer madness schools and the stone-cold sober schools sometimes as well.  The information is still the same.  It comes directly from students. 

Schools that are on bad lists generally try to discredit the survey for the Princeton Review.  I still say and I‘ve been saying all day that 110,000 students can‘t be wrong.  We think that there‘s value in that opinion of students and we think there‘s value in reporting that information.

CARLSON:  Worst campus food goes to St. Bonaventure University.

FRANEK:  In upstate New York, yes.

CARLSON:  How bad is it?

FRANEK:  It‘s pretty bad, I have to say, and there are so many things that have changed with campus food over the last—over the last couple of years.  You know, just to take a contrasting point of view, Bowden College in Lewiston, Maine was best campus food.

CARLSON:  Bates in Lewiston.

FRANEK:  Oh, I‘m sorry, Bates, you‘re correct but overall campus food is in Bowden College this year.


FRANEK:  They have a lobster bake for freshmen when they come onto campus.

CARLSON:  Outstanding.

FRANEK:  They have a cooperative food program with local farmers to provide fresh produce for their students on campus.  When you think about these really sexy and aggressive programs that some schools have and then we contrast it with a school like St. Bonaventure, again, a wonderful school academically but when thinking of quality of life issues like food, it comes to the top of that bad list.

CARLSON:  Oh, so what‘s the most conservative school in the country?

FRANEK:  Well, it‘s kind of hard to say but when we think about students leaning to the—to the right for Ronald Reagan our list is that students most  nostalgic for Ronald Reagan and on the flipside nostalgic for Bill Clinton, Hillsdale College in Michigan is actually a brand new college that we put in the book this year is number one on that list.

CARLSON:  And most liberal?

FRANEK:  Most liberal is Mills College, which is an all female school in Oakland, California, wonderful school, only about 500 females in it, great school but certainly on the liberal side.

CARLSON:  Pretty left-wing chicks there?

FRANEK:  Yes, without question.

CARLSON:  So, what are the criteria you‘d use to pick a college?

FRANEK:  I think that you have to go...

CARLSON:  Now, where did you go by the way?

FRANEK:  I went to Drew University in Madison, New Jersey, not all that far.

CARLSON:  Madison, New Jersey.

FRANEK:  Yes, yes, a great school, Tom Keane...


CARLSON:  The governor of New Jersey today signed the anti-smoking bill in the dorm at Drew University.

FRANEK:  So, I heard, so I heard.

CARLSON:  So, what‘s the criterion or the criteria you would use?

FRANEK:  I really think that you have to focus on finding student opinion, which again is the focus of this book.  I mean you can listen to me.  You can listen to the folks at the Princeton Review.  But you have to find out what kids are experiencing in that classroom now.  Do they have great professors in the classroom?  Are there good teachers?  Are they accessible inside and outside of the classroom?

But then, of course, besides that classroom experience what is a student going to do outside the classroom?  Is there going to be an act of social scene?  Are gay and lesbian students accepted?  Is there diversity on campus?  Those things are important to you and you need and you sort of owe it to yourself to make sure you find out that information.

CARLSON:  All right, Robert Franek of the Princeton Review thanks for joining us.

FRANEK:  Oh, a pleasure to be here.

CARLSON:  Coming up, how big is Google?  One thing, of course, it‘s gone from a noun to a verb.  Will it‘s latest venture ruin other Internet giants running them out of business?

Plus, Chuck Hagel knows a lot about Vietnam and a lot about Iraq.  One voice mailer takes issue with the Senator‘s comparison of the two.  Be right back.


VANESSA MCDONALD, SITUATION PRODUCER:  Still to come, we‘ll have a shocking new study on obesity in the U.S.

Plus, a 590-pound tuna you‘ll have to see to believe.

CARLSON:  THE SITUATION returns in just 60 seconds.


CARLSON:  Welcome back.

Time to look ahead to tomorrow‘s news right now, events so fresh they‘re still hot from the wires.  And for that we turn to the most trusted name in news, our producer Willie Geist.

GEIST:  Tucker, I wouldn‘t trust me.  Trust me.

CARLSON:  Our viewers do, Willie.

GEIST:  I‘d like to speak up on behalf of a little school in Music City, USA called Vanderbilt University, an underrated party school.  It was not mentioned in the interview but we get down a little bit down in Nashville.

CARLSON:  Yes, they do and they wear coat and ties as they do it apparently.

GEIST:  We do.  We get down formally.

CARLSON:  First up, tomorrow we‘ll wake up to a world increasingly dominated by Google.  The company already runs the most used search engine on the web and tomorrow it‘s expected to announce it is adding instant messaging, an Internet phone calling service.

Google looking to strike a blow against rivals Microsoft, AOL and Yahoo, all of whom offer instant messaging and voice communication services.  Google closed at about $280 a share today and good for them.  The thing with Google is the patch worked.

GEIST:  Right.  It‘s mind boggling and you know who should really be worried about this the phone companies.

CARLSON:  Exactly.

GEIST:  The instant messaging is good but these phone calls, these phone companies are already losing customers by the boat load, so they should be really concerned.

CARLSON:  I just don‘t feel bad about that.  It‘s nice to see a company that actually provides a great service succeed.

GEIST:  I agree.  It works.

CARLSON:  Good for Google, good for America.

All right, a report to be published tomorrow in the Journal of the American Medical Association takes on one of the most highly charged questions in the abortion debate. 

A team of doctors has determined that fetuses probably cannot feel pain in the first six months of gestation, the study designed to challenge proposed laws that would require doctors to warn patients about the pain felt by the fetus during abortions committed after 20 weeks to which I say who cares?  I mean do you know what I mean?

GEIST:  Right.

CARLSON:  You know if someone is killed by lethal injection he doesn‘t feel pain, does that mean he doesn‘t die?

GEIST:  No.  And also the reality of this is only one percent of abortions are performed after 20 weeks.

CARLSON:  Right.

GEIST:  So it‘s not like this is an epidemic of some kind.

CARLSON:  Well, the reality is there‘s a lot of spin here.  The New York Times piece, which is going to be in tomorrow‘s papers quotes one of the authors of this study and describes her as someone who sometimes performs abortions. 

Well, we checked and it turns out she runs a major abortion clinic in San Francisco, in fact the only abortion clinic in northern California that performs late term abortions after a certain stage.  She has a vested interest in the outcome of this study.

But I do think the distinction about, you know, whether the unborn child feels pain or not is ridiculous.  If you‘re on a bus and a suicide bomber blows you up, you feel nothing.  You‘re vaporized but you‘re still murdered.

GEIST:  It‘s an interesting debate.  There‘s more to it.

CARLSON:  Yes, it is.

The NCAA has removed Florida State University from a list of schools that must restrict or change the use of their American Indian nicknames during sporting events.  The NCAA says it‘s decided to recognize the long relationship between Florida State and the Seminole tribe, which supports the school‘s use of its name.  Florida State University had threatened a lawsuit against the NCAA if it was forced to change its nickname.

Well, good.  I mean I‘m glad, A, that you brought this up and the story we‘ve been talking about but the Seminoles don‘t have a problem with it.

GEIST:  Well, that‘s the reality of this whole issue.  It‘s a small minority of people speaking.  There was a poll taken a couple years ago, 83 percent of American Indians said they don‘t care about college nicknames, so this is not a big problem to American Indians, except to a few activists who are making it a problem.

CARLSON:  Yes, I mean my last name is Carlson, which is Swedish and if there were the, you know, the Fighting Swedes or the Victorious Swedes...

GEIST:  You‘d be proud.

CARLSON: ...if it was anything other than the drunk, ornery Swedes, the most accurate, I‘d be totally delighted.

GEIST:  I agree.  There‘s no aggrieved party in this, so let‘s let it go.

CARLSON:  And there always ought to be an aggrieved party before an action is filed I think.

GEIST:  I agree.

CARLSON:  All right, Willie Geist, thank you.

GEIST:  See you in a bit.

CARLSON:  Ahead on THE SITUATION, a shocking new study on obesity in America.  Should we care if someone wants to wash down his bunion encrusted chili dog with a swig of blue cheese dressing, yum.  One angry voice mailer from one of our fattest states delivers her opinion next.


CARLSON:  Welcome back, sitting in tonight for a vacationing Pocahontas, I‘m Tucker Carlson.

Time now for our voice mail segment where we encourage you to share your thoughts about a story in the news, the show itself or even the host, let‘s see what we have, first up.


NEIL, BURLINGTON, ILLINOIS:  My name is Neil Alter (ph), Burlington, Indiana.  I‘m understanding that the constitution in Iraq looks like it‘s going to Sharia law or Islamic law.  Saddam Hussein ran a secular society, not an Islamic society.  Women there could dress like they dress in the west.  They could have careers.  I don‘t think women in America are going to appreciate it if all our soldiers have died and all these billions of dollars have been spent so the women in Iraq end up being treated like animals.


CARLSON:  Neil, I couldn‘t agree more.  Our soldiers die so that women and Christians, for that matter in Iraq, can be oppressed it‘s just wrong.  You want a medieval society you go to do it without our help.  That ought to be the rule—next up.


JACOB, LYNWOOD, NEW JERSEY:  Hi, this is Jacob Reeses (ph) from Lynwood, New Jersey.  As I was about to say Chuck Hagel is right about the war in Iraq being like Vietnam in every way except one.  The people of America whether they support the war or not support the troops.  I think that is wonderful that America is so receptive to our troops regardless of our political leanings.  We stand by them.


CARLSON:  It is wonderful and that‘s an excellent point.  I think the larger point is though that in a democracy the public has to be behind a war.  You can‘t continue to fight a war if the majority of people are opposed to it sadly—all right.


NICK, BRONX, NEW YORK:  Hey Tuck, this is Nick DeMeo (ph) from the Bronx, New York City, how are you?  I wanted to know what your thoughts are.  Is it going to be Giuliani versus Hillary in ‘08?  I mean that‘s what I‘m reading.  That‘s what I think pretty much is going to be.  What are your thoughts on that?


CARLSON:  The subway series, two New Yorkers running for president, that will have a lot of Heartland appeal, Hillary Clinton versus Rudy Giuliani.  The problem there is it‘s hard to tell who‘s more liberal at least on the social issues.  I think Hillary Clinton may be actually slightly more conservative than Rudy Giuliani on some of the social issues and she‘s gotten so hawkish on foreign policy stuff. 

I think the Republicans need to run someone who is a sharper, brighter contrast to Mrs. Clinton.  I think Chuck Hagel could be the guy.  He‘s conservative on social issues and yet he‘s actually to her left or I‘m not sure, he certainly has a different position than she does on the war in Iraq.  That‘s an interesting race.  I hope that happens—all right.


BRENDA. TUSCALOOSA, ALABAMA:  Tucker, this is Brenda from Tuscaloosa, Alabama and I‘m calling because I am so offended by that story about what states have the most obese adults.  I‘m from Alabama and let me just tell you not everybody here is fat.  And, also however many hot wings I want to eat for dinner or Twinkies I want to eat for dessert is my business.  It is not the government‘s business.  Why can‘t they spend their money on something more worthwhile, like protecting me from terrorism?


CARLSON:  Well, thanks Brenda.  I couldn‘t agree more.  I lived in Washington for a long time and I can tell you this.  The moment government workers start following their own advice about weight loss is the moment I‘ll start listening to them about weight loss.  So, you keep eating your Twinkies, Brenda.  God bless you.


TOM, SAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA:  Hey, my name is Tom.  My hometown is San Francisco.  Tucker, you seem like a nice guy and your pal there is real good looking and he seems like a nice guy too but you are too old for the low ride pants with the pubic hair showing it‘s not for the women dude.  It‘s for the gay men and your partner came just shy of saying that.  I think because he‘s so good looking he didn‘t want anyone to think he was gay.


CARLSON:  Hey, Tom, you‘re from San Francisco so I guess I got to take you seriously.  It sounds like you‘d probably know.  I will tell you I‘m shocked.  It went right over my head.  I was about 14 until I figured out the terrible truth about the Village People.  That‘s disgusting.  Get that off the screen.  That‘s even more terrifying.  Okay, I‘m going to talk over that and wish it away.  Is that really true?  I‘ll take your word for it Tom.  I had no idea.

Let me know what you‘re thinking.  Call 1-877-TCARLSON.  That‘s 877-822-7576.

Still ahead on THE SITUATION, Ashlee Simpson‘s infamous “Saturday Night Live” meltdown would never have happened in the former Soviet Republic of Turkmenistan.  Lip sinking is banned.  We‘ll tell you about it on the “Cutting Room Floor.”


CARLSON:  Welcome back.

Time for the Cutting Room Floor where we sweep up the odds and ends of news we couldn‘t use and bring them to you, Willie Geist here again.

GEIST:  Hello, Tucker.

CARLSON:  Willie.

GEIST:  May I just point out, since no one else has over the course of the show, your tie.

CARLSON:  A gift from my daughters.  It‘s a little fruity but, you know, it‘s late August.

GEIST:  Where do we draw the line?

CARLSON:  Apparently we don‘t.

GEIST:  With apologies to your beautiful daughters.

CARLSON:  Thank you.

All right, well I caught a three and a half pound pickle in Maine last week.  I was feeling pretty good about myself until I heard about the New Zealand man who hauled in a 591 pound blue fin tuna.  Businessman Michael Hayes (ph) was fishing off the west coast of New Zealand when he hooked the monster fish.  If all the stats are confirmed, Hayes would have a new International Game Fishing Association record.

GEIST:  That is incredible, Tucker.

CARLSON:  It is incredible.

GEIST:  And just to give our viewers some perspective that fish is nearly as big as Star Jones, so quite an achievement, congratulations.

CARLSON:  I‘m going to pass on that Willie.  I may run into her. 

Plus, she‘s always nice.

GEIST:  No, she‘s very nice.  I love “The View.”  I watch it.

CARLSON:  Well, if you‘re looking to furnish your apartment on the cheap, and who isn‘t, Jose Avilla (ph) of Tempe, Arizona has an idea for you.  Make your furniture out of discarded FedEx boxes.  Avilla has a bed, a couch, a kitchen table and a computer desk all made from FedEx‘s cardboard boxes.  Unfortunately, FedEx caught wind of his unique d’cor and claimed trademark infringement against him.  Avilla says he‘s considering a move to UPS.

GEIST:  He should.  I‘m not as worried about the trademark infringement, Tucker, as I am by the fact that he‘s receiving 16 FedEx packages a day.  What sort of business is he running out of Tempe there, a little (INAUDIBLE) trade or something?  I don‘t know, a little fishy.

CARLSON:  I don‘t judge, Willie.

Well, President Niyazov of Turkmenistan, a very difficult to pronounce name, is taking a hard line on the central issue plaguing his former Soviet Republic lip sinking.  Niyazov cites “the negative effect on the development of singing and musical art” as the motive for his bold action. 

Incidents like Ashlee Simpson‘s meltdown on “Saturday Night Live” won‘t be of a concern in Turkmenistan because Niyazov has banned reported music on television at all cultural events, concerts, even at private celebrations such as weddings.

GEIST:  Is there a lot of lip sinking at weddings?  I think no to that.

CARLSON:  I think in Turkmenistan it‘s quite common or was.

GEIST:  You know what this guy Niyazov does not get enough attention.  He‘s a very amusing tyrant.  Kim Jong-Il gets all the pump but this guy he‘s outlawed ballet and opera.  He has murals of himself all over the place and says he doesn‘t even like them.  It‘s just because the people want them.

CARLSON:  They demand them.

GEIST:  I think this will put him on the map.

CARLSON:  Those Turkmen demanding.

GEIST:  That Turk man.

CARLSON:  Well in its September issue, Spin Magazine has put together the ultimate rock star by assembling the best body parts in rock and roll history, topping the list Madonna‘s navel.  The magazine says it‘s the navel that first marked Madonna as a mainstream provocateur.

The second best body part actually gets my vote for number one.  It‘s Keith Richards‘ liver.  Spin writes, “When Richards finally passes, they‘ll line the exterior of the space shuttle with his liver tissue. 

GEIST:  That‘s actually true, Gene Simmons‘ tongue and Tommy Lee‘s you know what were also on this list seriously, the least attractive parts, Mariah Carey‘s mental stability, Ozzy Osbourne‘s diction and all of Meat Loaf.

CARLSON:  I think I‘m going to subscribe to Spin just on the basis of that.

GEIST:  Good stuff.

CARLSON:  Well, a couple weeks ago we brought you the all-time great story of the man who in an effort to scare his wife out of their marriage falsely told her he killed a hitchhiker.

Tonight, a similar story out of Guatemala, a 25-year-old man there faked his own kidnapping to get out of his wedding.  The man, not pictured here as far as we know, got cold feet and disappeared on his wedding day.  He turned up later that evening and told police he had been kidnapped but no one bought his story.

GEIST:  You know what, Tucker, the media took a lot of heat for over covering the runaway bride, this runaway white woman.  Our pledge to our viewers we are going to cover each and every Guatemalan runaway groom that comes down the pike in the interest of balanced journalism.

CARLSON:  You know I‘m going to throw in El Salvador and Honduras just to be fair.

GEIST:  Why not sure?

CARLSON:  If it happens in Central America...

GEIST:  Central America.

CARLSON: ...and it has to do with weddings we‘re on it.


CARLSON:  That‘s THE SITUATION for tonight.  Thanks for watching.