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'The Abrams Report' for August 24

Guest: Jim Moret, Louise Pennell, Tom Lange, Chuck Michel, Ray Peavy, John Riolo, Kevin Miles, Nile Gardiner, Juan Cole>

DAN ABRAMS, HOST:  Coming up, Olivia Newton-John cancels TV and promotional appearances as authorities search for her missing boyfriend. 

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ABRAMS (voice-over):  We know Patrick McDermott was having financial trouble when he disappeared more than a mo month ago, leaving some to wonder whether he may have just left and possibly even faked his own disappearance.  And the owner of the boat he was last seen on has hired an attorney.  We talk with him. 

Plus, a Hollywood music producer has worked for Queen Latifah and David Bowie goes missing after calling a friend to say he was running for his life from people with dogs. 

And a constitution has been written in Iraq.  But could it turn Iraq into an Islamic state?

The program about justice starts now. 

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ABRAMS:  Hi everyone.  First up on the docket tonight, Olivia Newton-John has canceled television appearances to promote a new album and reportedly remains in hiding in southern California.  This, as authorities follow up leads in the mysterious disappearance of her—quote—“dear friend”, Patrick McDermott.  New details emerging about McDermott who vanished from a fishing boat almost two months ago.

He was in serious debt, had fallen behind in child support payments, had problems with his ex-wife.  McDermott apparently set off on a chartered overnight fishing trip on June 30th, wasn‘t reported missing until almost two weeks later—excuse me—when his ex-wife found his car in the marina parking a lot. 

We‘re going to talk to the lawyer for the boat company in a minute—why do they have a lawyer—but first let‘s get to the new details about the missing man.  Joining me now is attorney and “Inside Edition” senior correspondent Jim Moret and once again Louise Pennell from Seven Network Australia.

Thank you both for coming on the program.  Appreciate it.  All right, so Jim, a lot of details coming out about his finances, right?

JIM MORET, “INSIDE EDITION” SENIOR CORRESPONDENT:  Well we know that he filed for bankruptcy some five years ago.  He‘s been paying 800 a month child support to his ex-wife.  In April she made a filing with the court to substitute the court as the recipient of the checks.  Presumably, she wasn‘t receiving them.  So you‘re right.

You‘re outlining a person who may have had some financial problems.  But you talk about belongings that were left on the boat, the belongings included his I.D., his car keys, a checkbook and a passport, and you talk about all those strange things in this case, why would you bring a passport on an overnight fishing trip?  I‘ve gone on these trips.  I‘ve never brought my passport with me. 

ABRAMS:  That‘s an interesting point.  Hundred and thirty-two thousand dollar life insurance policy, had $1,000 monthly child support payments he‘d fallen behind on, $25,000 credit card debt, 15,700 owed to department stores, 3,089 in an outstanding car payment.

Louise, any more information about exactly what the relationship was between Olivia Newton-John and McDermott? 

LOUISE PENNELL, SEVEN NETWORK AUSTRALIA:  Not at all, but obviously there are still reports that they were in this committed relationship.  Now, Dan, I don‘t know about you but the definition of a committed relationship really has to be questioned.  The fact that Olivia Newton-John didn‘t know that he had disappeared until his ex-wife alerted authorities a good 11 days after he was due back just seems questionable. 

Olivia‘s obviously distancing herself from the investigation, despite the fact that she has employed a private detective to investigate the case.  But as you say, she‘s canceled public appearances to promote her album, which is due out next Thursday. 

ABRAMS:  I don‘t get why she‘s canceling this now.  Meaning, this is someone who went missing probably June 30, at the least he was reported missing July 11, and why only now is she canceling these appearances as the authorities investigate a case that they‘ve probably been investigating for a while. 

PENNELL:  Well the statement that she released the other day said that she respected McDermott‘s family and their wishes.  So you can only assume that she‘s taking their lead on this case, but you can‘t help but think that perhaps the relationship was over.  Perhaps that the media, we, just assuming that they were together for nine years, I find it all that Olivia Newton-John shared her time between Australia and the United States and yet McDermott was really only seen in Australia publicly with her once and even when they were seen together in America, not often at all. 

ABRAMS:  Well, but so is this just—when we call it her boyfriend, is this just a media-created thing?  I mean she‘s not disputing the fact.  I mean she‘s calling him her dear friend.  Is she disputing that this is her boyfriend?

PENNELL:  Well in the statement she called him, as you say, her dear friend and that she did love him.  But I think there are two separate issues here.  There is a man who is missing, whether he is Olivia Newton-John‘s boyfriend, companion, best friend you know that‘s a different issue. 

ABRAMS:  All right, let me bring in Tom Lange, former LAPD, old friend of the program.  All right, Tom, good to see you again.  Let me lay out some...

TOM LANGE, FORMER LAPD DETECTIVE:  Hi Dan.

ABRAMS:  ... of the possibilities here, all right.  This is number three.

(CROSSTALK)

ABRAMS:  Possibility:  Accidentally fell over board and drowned. 

Possibility:  Was pushed overboard or otherwise was some sort of victim of foul play.

Possibility:  Committed suicide by jumping overboard due to depression or to resolve personal and financial challenges.

Possibility:  Faked his own disappearance to give his son his life insurance policy to enable him to start a new life.

Possibility:  Dropped out of sight for a while due to depression and/or other challenges.

But Tom, the most important clue here is the fact that all of his stuff, meaning his passport, his wallet, all of what you would think would be someone‘s most important possessions are sitting there in a fanny pack on the boat. 

LANGE:  Yes, well, there‘s an awful a lot of questions here and again, more questions than answers.  Why did it take six days, as an example, for the family to report him missing, 11 days before anybody even searches for his car?  There are some very basic investigator questions also when it comes to the boat itself.  I‘ve been out on these boat and what you do is you rent your equipment.  Did he ever return his equipment?

There‘s a conflict he was seen in the galley and then someone else said that they saw him getting off of the boat.  But I mean what—did he rent his gear or did he bring it on board.  Was he with anybody? 

ABRAMS:  Yes.

LANGE:  Usually on these trips, these overnighters, you always go with somebody.  But more importantly, when you catch fish, they throw it into a little numbered burlap bag and the crew usually filets the fish on the way back and you walk off with your fish.  Did he take his fish?  Did he catch any?  Basic questions that we don‘t have any answers to at this point. 

ABRAMS:  Hey, Tom, why is the Coast Guard running this investigation? 

LANGE:  That‘s a good question.  I have no idea.  The car was found, you know, in the city of Los Angeles.  Unless they know something that we don‘t and that‘s certainly a possibility, but just looking over the little bit that we have, we don‘t have a whole a lot of information here.  You need to start with the family.  You need to go back and re-interview the crew, everybody that was on board because none of this is adding up at all. 

ABRAMS:  Jim Moret, look, you‘ve been digging on this case a little bit for the last couple of days.  Anything else odd—it seems everything about this story is odd—anything else that you‘ve turned up with regard to information, anything? 

MORET:  Well the thing that‘s odd, Dan, frankly are these gaps and Tom was talking about them.  You know, you talk about did somebody see him get off the boat.  The only reason we believe he was in the galley is because there was a ledger of payment that apparently reflected that he was in the galley three miles before they were back on the harbor.  So there are all of these various gaps and you know, this just doesn‘t feel right.  You‘ve covered...

ABRAMS:  Yes.

MORET:  ... these kind of cases before.  You‘ve seen these kind of—this doesn‘t feel right...

ABRAMS:  Do we know, Jim, were there any eyewitnesses that we know of who actually saw him on—I mean it‘s always possible, you know, he maybe through this stuff on the boat and then left and before it even took off.  Do any—I mean I think I‘ve read that eyewitnesses, other people on the boat remember seeing him. 

MORET:  There have been people who have apparently seen him.  But you have to remember, at this point, six weeks, seven weeks later to rely on memory is really an imperfect science.  Nothing extraordinary happened on this trip.  That‘s what I‘m told.  There were no reports of somebody falling over.  Nobody heard anybody fall over.  Nobody heard anybody cry for help.  Nothing unusual happened.  So we don‘t even know really what he looked like as he got on the boat.  Was he wearing a cap?  Was he wearing glasses?  Was he shaved?  We don‘t know exactly if that photo reflects what the man who got on that boat looked like. 

ABRAMS:  Yes.  And in a minute I‘ll talk to a lawyer for the people that own that boat.  Of course, you‘ve got to wonder why do they have lawyers already.  But I‘ve got a lot of questions about exactly how that boat works and generally, you know, when do people come on the boat and when do they leave, et cetera.  Louise, is this still on the front paper of the Australian papers?

PENNELL:  It‘s still of interest, but given that Olivia Newton-John is not speaking the interest is waning a little.  But there‘s no doubt that the Australian media and public for that matter are hungry for this story. 

ABRAMS:  What exactly did this guy do, Louise?  I mean we were trying to figure out—he‘s a cameraman, but what exactly did he do for a living?

PENNELL:  Well he‘s listed as a cameraman.  What we do know is that he worked as a gaffer.  He met Olivia Newton-John on a commercial, so what we do know though is that he didn‘t get a lot of work over recent times, just through documents and that obviously he had some spare time to go out on fishing trips.

ABRAMS:  Is he American or Australian?

PENNELL:  He‘s an American.

ABRAMS:  He‘s an American.  All right.  Grew up here?

PENNELL:  He did, yes indeed, and obviously married an American woman, although the marriage was short lived and I think the other interesting thing is that his ex-wife is not speaking for obvious reasons.  There‘s a teenager involved.  Also the interesting thing is that Olivia Newton-John has a teenager and if Patrick McDermott was in her life for nine years, then obviously her daughter Chloe would have been close to Patrick McDermott.

ABRAMS:  All right.  Everyone is going to stick around.  Because coming up, the owner of the boat McDermott went out on has hired an attorney.  Why did they need to do that?  We‘ll talk to him when we come back.

And a Grammy nominated Hollywood music producer calls a friend to say he‘s running for his life from people with dogs.  Coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ABRAMS:  We‘re back.  Olivia Newton-John‘s—quote—“dear friend” vanished from a fishing boat almost two months ago.  It seems the authorities haven‘t gotten that far in the investigation, but on the night of June 30 Patrick McDermott boarded a fishing boat named “Freedom” along with 22 other passengers, two captains and four crew members, yet no one on the boat seems to remember exactly what happened to him. 

Joining my panel now is attorney Chuck Michel, who represents the owners of “Freedom”, the boat McDermott was on.  Thanks very much for coming on the program.  We appreciate it. 

CHUCK MICHEL, ATTORNEY FOR “FREEDOM” OWNERS:  Thanks for having me. 

ABRAMS:  All right.  Considering the fact that we‘re at the point where everything‘s a mystery here.  What happened to him, what happened to—whether he got on, whether he got off, all of it remains a mystery.  Why do they need a lawyer? 

MICHEL:  Well they need a lawyer because they‘re fishermen, not administrators, and up until this point in time there‘s been a lot of paperwork gathering and coordinating schedules and that kind of stuff that we have a long relationship with the boats down here and we were helping them out with.  This only became really a high-profile story in the last couple of days, so we‘ve been doing the legwork while these guys are out on the boat, trying to make a living. 

ABRAMS:  All right.  So let‘s go through the timeline here of this fishing trip. 

June 30:  The “Freedom” departs the marina.  Picked up live bait, 11:00 p.m. sets off on a five and a half-hour trip to San Clemente Island.

July 1:  The “Freedom” drops anchor; passengers wake, apparently eaten fish, 5:00 a.m.; 2:00 p.m., “Freedom” heads back to the marina; some passengers sleep on the ride back; stops for fuel at 7:30; 8:30, it arrives at the marina and passengers depart.

Give us a sense of how this boat works, meaning, do people just sign up to go on this boat overnight?  Is it primarily to go fishing?  Do they go snorkeling?  What is the purpose of going on the boat when you do it? 

MICHEL:  The boat is dedicated to sport fishing and it‘s not a charter boat, per se.  It‘s an open party boat which means that you buy a together, make a reservation for yourself or however many people want to come along with you and then everybody just meets at the dock and goes out on the boat that night.  So it‘s Mr.—in Mr. McDermott‘s case, he made a reservation just for himself and came down and joined the other 22 passengers, got on the boat and headed out to San Clemente. 

ABRAMS:  Is there an opportunity to go snorkeling or anything like that? 

MICHEL:  Not really.  The boat is designed specifically for sport fishing.  There‘s a low railing—it‘s higher than Coast Guard regulations require, but there‘s a railing around the outer edge of the boat that the fishermen stand up against and cast off—cast from.  So it really is not practical for snorkeling.  There‘s no sort of station for getting in and out of the water and it‘d be tough to fall over this balcony.  I mean it is like a balcony on a house.  You‘d have to really lean to try and get over it. 

ABRAMS:  And so to be clear, it is not a boat from which people generally swim? 

MICHEL:  No. 

ABRAMS:  Right. 

MICHEL:  No.  And another important point, I think, is that the access to different parts of the boat is very controlled.  You can‘t—especially on the way out, when it‘s dark you can‘t go into the front part of the boat.  The entire passenger—all the passengers are restricted to the back area of the boat where there are some bright lights or to the berths underneath the bunks, and this boat sleeps 60 people, so it can be somewhat crowded sometimes. 

ABRAMS:  Do they count the number of people who get on and get off? 

MICHEL:  They have a passenger manifest of each person that gets on the boat, but they‘re not required and it would be—as a practical matter very, very difficult or impossible to physically count each head as it got off the boat. 

ABRAMS:  All right.  Now, right before the boat stops for fuel at 7:30 on July 1, it says—quote—“all passengers were mustered about three nautical miles from the Los Angeles harbor lighthouse and instructed to settle their fish cleaning and galley tab and to gather their belongings to disembark.”  Do we know whether Patrick McDermott settled his bill? 

MICHEL:  As far as we know, he did settle his bill.  That‘s what our records indicate.  That‘s what the boat‘s records show. 

ABRAMS:  So the boat‘s records show that at seven—so that would mean, would it not, I mean, is there any other way that he could have settled his bill other than having been on that boat at 7:30 on July 1? 

MICHEL:  It‘s conceivable.  I—if I was speculating, I think it‘s conceivable that somebody else could have paid his galley tab, but it‘s very unlikely.  And that‘s typically not the way it‘s done, particularly with a single fisherman.  But he would be establishing—you know he would be socializing with the other passengers and could have established some kind of a relationship.  That‘s not the case with the crew.  The crew is busy working.  They have hundreds of people that go on and off the boat every week and so they don‘t necessarily get to—they really don‘t get to know each passenger and wouldn‘t necessarily remember one passenger. 

ABRAMS:  Do we know...

(CROSSTALK)

ABRAMS:  Do we know did he pay with a credit card or cash? 

MICHEL:  Cash. 

ABRAMS:  All right.  So there are records that he settled up his galley bill, I guess is the way to say it, fish cleaning and galley tabs, around 7:30, an hour before that boat docks? 

MICHEL:  Correct. 

ABRAMS:  Wow. 

MICHEL:  Now, that wouldn‘t be a fish-cleaning tab unless somebody opts to have the fish cleaned.  But he had a couple—he had a few things from the galley and those were paid for. 

ABRAMS:  Jim Moret, I mean that really to me adds a really interesting element to this. 

MORET:  Well sure, because if you believe that this was him, actually Patrick McDermott who settled the bill and there‘s no reason to think otherwise, then you know from 7:30 to 8:30 something happened to him or perhaps he got off the boat, as some people have suggested, and then simply walked away.  Because don‘t forget, you know the belongings weren‘t gathered up.

(CROSSTALK)

MORET:  Everyone is to go the galley and gather their belongings.  His were still in the box. 

ABRAMS:  Can you get off—Mr. Michel, can you get off the boat at that point in any way? 

MICHEL:  Well, it did stop for gas and so physically, you could get off the boat, but they‘re not allowed to get off the boat.  If anybody tried to get off the boat, they would have been stopped.  The crew has to get off to put the gas lines into the tank, but none of the passengers are allowed to get off at that point. 

(CROSSTALK)

MICHEL:  If someone wanted to slip off here, I suppose they, you know...

ABRAMS:  Right.

MICHEL:  ... it‘d be tough even to sneak off. 

ABRAMS:  Tom Lange, what do you make of that new information? 

LANGE:  Well, Dan, I would want to know, first of all, did this fellow rent fishing gear.  I‘ve been out on these things many times over the years and usually everyone would rent the gear there.  Did he actually rent the gear?  You have to give identification, in some cases, leave a credit card number...

ABRAMS:  All right.

LANGE:  ... for the fishing gear and if he did, did he return the fishing gear. 

ABRAMS:  Mr. Michel.

MICHEL:  He didn‘t rent fishing gear.  He brought his own gear. 

LANGE:  OK.

MICHEL:  And the gear was turned in with his private—with his personal stuff to lost and found. 

LANGE:  OK, then I would ask about the burlap bag.  Usually when they catch fish, they go into a burlap bag, a numbered burlap bag.  If he caught fish, he would probably leave with that bag.  Does it remain on the boat or is it gone? 

MICHEL:  We don‘t know if he caught any fish or not.  You don‘t necessarily track who caught how many fish unless they have it cleaned and then there would be a galley tab...

(CROSSTALK)

MICHEL:  ... so we don‘t know.

ABRAMS:  All right...

(CROSSTALK)

LANGE:  ... the bag would remain on the boat.

MICHEL:  I would like to just...

ABRAMS:  Yes, Mr. Michel, quickly, final word, yes.

MICHEL:  If I could just, you know, on behalf of the “Freedom” and its crew, our hopes and prayers are with Mr. McDermott‘s family and loved ones.  We hope that they get to the bottom of this and we‘re doing everything we can to cooperate with the authorities to give them whatever they need to get to the bottom of this. 

ABRAMS:  Chuck Michel, Jim Moret, Louise Pennell, thanks a lot.  Tom Lange is going to stay with us.

Now to a bizarre story about a prominent music producer who disappeared early Sunday morning, allegedly—quote—“running for his life.”  Police are trying to crack—are trying to track down Christian Irwin who somehow managed to make two phone calls on his cell phone, telling police and a friend that he was being chased by people with dogs. 

KNBC reporter Patrick Healy has the story. 

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PATRICK HEALY, KNBC REPORTER (voice-over):  The now missing music producer, Chris Julian Irwin, had set out to rustic solitude of Topanga Canyon for the home studio he called tree fort.  Its walls adorned with gold and platinum albums of artists ranging from Queen Latifah to David Bowie, but something early Sunday morning sent Irwin fleeing down the hillside in panic. 

SHARON RIOLO, MISSING MAN‘S SISTER:  If my brother took off running for his life, there was a reason. 

HEALY:  Authorities say the 47-year-old made a cell phone call to 911 and two more to a friend, saying he was being chased through the canyon. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  He said I‘m running down a creek.  I‘m being chased by somebody.  There may be dogs involved. 

HEALY:  Aided by search dogs, sheriff‘s deputies found Irwin‘s eyeglasses but no other trace of him.  The family suspects a connection to a $50,000 check he received through an Internet get-rich quick scheme.

Outside Los Angeles in Topanga Canyon, Patrick Healy reporting for NBC News. 

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ABRAMS:  Joining me now is Captain Ray Peavy from the Los Angeles Sheriff‘s Office, who‘s working on the case and Chris Irwin‘s brother-in-law John Riolo joins us on the phone.  Thank you both very much for joining us.  We appreciate it.

All right, Captain, what do you make of that speculation that it might be connected to that Internet operation? 

CAPT. RAY PEAVY, LA SHERIFF‘S OFFICE (via phone):  We‘re considering all possibilities.  Certainly, that‘s one of them. 

ABRAMS:  John, who was it who he called?  He called a friend of his on the phone? 

JOHN RIOLO, MISSING MAN‘S BROTHER-IN-LAW (via phone):  Yes, he made two calls to a friend of his.  He also made a 911 call.  I don‘t know the sequence of those calls but he made a total of three to my knowledge.

ABRAMS:  Captain Peavy, what did he say on the 911 call? 

PEAVY:  Well quite frankly, we‘re not sure that he actually made a 911 call.  We do know about the two calls to the friend.  We‘ve not been able to track down any 911 call at this point, so he may or may not have actually even made a 911 call. 

ABRAMS:  And do you know—have you talked to the friend as to exactly what he said. 

PEAVY:  The friend is out of town.  He had to go out on business.  We‘re anticipating talking to him tonight.  But we—investigators, our police officers talked to the friend right away directly after it was reported and we do have his initial statement.  His statement was that he had received these calls and that Christian had called and seemed to be very concerned, said that he was in trouble, he needed help. 

The friend then went to the location that Christian had given him, which was near his home and once the friend got there, Christian was gone.  Christian then called later and said that he was being chased and that was the last call that we‘re aware of. 

ABRAMS:  John, is this a friend who can be trusted? 

RIOLO:  Absolutely, it‘s a life-long friend and they grew up together and have known each other since they were children. 

ABRAMS:  And so does it make sense to you that if he were in danger, that he would call that friend? 

RIOLO:  Absolutely.  He is his closest friend and you know if he was running for his life, you know the family believes that, you know that was real and so does his friend who took the call. 

ABRAMS:  John, do you have a theory as to what happened here? 

RIOLO:  I don‘t.  The family is in shock and you know we‘re leaving it to the authorities at this point to find Chris.  We really have—this is very out of character for Chris.  It comes as a shock.  He‘s a real nice person, a gentle person.  He‘s of good stature and he doesn‘t scare easily, so this is very concerning, obviously, to the family. 

ABRAMS:  All right.  Sounds like this investigation is ongoing and there‘s people still holding out hope that Christian Julian Irwin will be found alive and well.  And that‘s the tip line if you‘ve got any information, if you‘ve seen him, if you know anything about this, please call 323-890-5500.  Captain Peavy and John Riolo, thanks a lot.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Thank you.

ABRAMS:  Coming up, new developments in the search for a missing college student in Ohio, last seen leaving a bar, police searching a reservoir after finding what may be her I.D. nearby. 

Plus, a constitution has been written in Iraq, but could it mean that Iraq becomes an Islamic state? 

And our continuing series, “Manhunt: Sex Offenders on the Loose”, our effort to find missing sex offenders before they strike again.  Our search today continues in Alaska. 

Steven Lane, convicted in 1984 of sexually abusing a minor.  He‘s 52 years old, 5‘5”, 170, has not registered with the authorities.

If you‘ve got any information on his whereabouts, please contact Alaska‘s Department of Public Safety at 907-269-0396.

Be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ABRAMS:  Coming up, new developments in the case of that missing college student and model in Ohio.  Police are searching a reservoir in the area as we speak.  The details coming up, but first the headlines.

(NEWS BREAK)

ABRAMS:  We‘re back.  A possible lead in the case of a missing Ohio student and aspiring model, Julie Popovich.  Police may have found an I.D.  belonging to the 20-year-old, last seen almost two weeks ago when she was at a bar with friends near Ohio State University‘s Columbus campus.  And police have identified a person of interest.  Someone seen with Julie the night that she disappeared.

Joining me now is Kevin Miles with the Ohio Crime Stoppers and back with me, former LAPD detective Tom Lange.  All right, Kevin, have the authorities said anything more about this person of interest?

KEVIN MILES, OHIO CRIME STOPPERS:  No they haven‘t.  They still haven‘t been able to identify who this person is.  So if anybody has any information or maybe even the person that was at the bar that night with her, if they could just notify the police so they can identify to them and it‘s just a person of interest right now.

ABRAMS:  Here‘s the description from the Ohio authorities.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DET. MIKE MCCANN, COLUMBUS, OH POLICE DEPT.:  We don‘t have a true suspect.  What we have is a person who was seen talking to her by other people and you know his description is basically a male, white, in his 20‘s, dark skin, and dark hair.  We don‘t have this person really leaving with her.  We don‘t have anything other than they were talking.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ABRAMS:  But Tom Lange, it‘s got to be someone that her friends didn‘t know, right, or the friends would say she was with Bob Smith.

LANGE:  Well possibly, but you know Dan, it‘s the same sad story all over again.  A late night bar, an attractive young woman, alcohol, and you can imagine what the outcome could be.  I mean this happens quite frequently unfortunately.  Hopefully, there are some folks that are forthcoming.  If not, then the police have a long way to go here.

ABRAMS:  All right.  Here‘s what one of her friends said, Teonna Brooks.

As soon as I found out she was missing, I talked to the girls the next day that were there that night and they said they never saw Julie leave.  No one I know saw Julie get in a car with anyone.

So it sounds, Kevin, like some of those initial reports that she was seen getting into a car, that she may have been forced into a car, that she may have been going unwillingly, really may not have been right.

MILES:  Well we just don‘t know.  There‘s a lot of speculation out there and the best way is to listen to what the police say and the information that they‘re giving out.  There‘s a lot of people out there that are saying things and until you hear it from, you know, the police department it‘s probably not too credible.

ABRAMS:  What do you know about this I.D. that was apparently found? 

MILES:  The only thing I‘ve heard was what‘s been reported and I‘ve also heard several different stories about that, that it was hers, it was a friend of hers, and it‘s just not been confirmed you know by the police at all.  They have not made that statement at all. 

ABRAMS:  Tom, the more time passes, the more dangerous it gets, right? 

LANGE:  Yes, that‘s unfortunately true also.  You hope here that the police have a little more information that they‘re letting out.  That would be important, especially if they have a person of interest or a suspect and hopefully, they have some evidence here but these things, you know, it scares you to death.  They don‘t—it doesn‘t look...

ABRAMS:  Hey Tom, any theory as to why the police wouldn‘t try and create a sketch to release to the public to try and help find this guy? 

LANGE:  Well, it would depend.  You know, I don‘t know what theories they have.  There would only be the possibility that they wouldn‘t want him to know that they‘re on to him, I suppose.  Other than that, under these circumstances, you‘d think that any information would help with trying to find him. 

ABRAMS:  Yes, I don‘t really get it.  I assume, Kevin, you don‘t have an answer...

(CROSSTALK)

MILES:  No, we don‘t have all the answers and again in an investigation, the police are going to keep the lid on everything that they can...

ABRAMS:  Right.  No, that I understand...

MILES:  ... to protect the evidence that they have.

ABRAMS:  But I would think if they‘ve got a person of interest they‘d want to find the person, you know. 

(CROSSTALK)

MILES:  ... I think that‘s what they‘re trying to do with—by giving out the information that they do have...

ABRAMS:  Yes.  No, that‘s why—but I‘m just wondering why they wouldn‘t show a sketch. 

(CROSSTALK)

ABRAMS:  They probably have their reasons.  So Kevin Miles and Tom Lange, appreciate it.  Tom, good to see you.  It‘s been a long time. 

MILES:  Thank you for your help.

LANGE:  Thanks Dan.

ABRAMS:  Coming up, the Iraqis finish the draft of their constitution, but some are now asking whether that country, based on this constitution, could soon become an Islamic state. 

Your e-mails abramsreport@msnbc.com.  Please include your name and where you‘re writing from.  I respond at the end of the show.

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ABRAMS:  Coming up, Iraq‘s parliament comes up with a draft constitution, but many Iraqis and Americans not happy.  Many wondering whether this could mean Iraq becomes an Islamic state. 

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GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:  The establishment of a Democratic constitution will be a landmark event in the history of Iraq and the history of the Middle East.  It will bring us closer to a day when Iraq is a nation that can govern itself, sustain itself and defend itself. 

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ABRAMS:  OK, but that‘s only part of the question.  That‘s President Bush addressing National Guard troops and their families in Idaho today and talking about the process that‘s supposed to lead to a vote on a new Iraqi constitution on Thursday.  Many others including many Iraqis are concerned that it could allow Iraq to become an Islamic state based on the way the constitution reads right now.  Women protesting in Baghdad Sunday. 

The new constitution says—quote—“no law can be passed that contradicts the undisputed rules of Islam.”  Some Iraqis and particularly women fear that could mean Muslim religious law would trump other laws that grant them equal rights when is it comes to divorce, inheritance, even though equality is also mentioned in the constitution. 

So the question, could all this effort in Iraq lead to an Islamic state based on the way that constitution reads?  Juan Cole is a history professor at the University of Michigan.  His latest book this “Sacred Space and Holy War” on Shiite Islam.  Nile Gardiner is a Heritage Foundation fellow who writes on post war Iraq and the war on terror. 

Gentlemen, thanks very much for coming on the program.  Appreciate it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Thank you.

ABRAMS:  All right.  Mr. Gardiner, fair concern? 

NILE GARDINER, HERITAGE FOUNDATION FELLOW:  I think it‘s a legitimate concern, certainly and there‘s no room at all for complacency.  I think on the whole, the draft constitution is actually very good in terms of its protections for minority rights, the protection of individual and religious liberty and freedom.  Unfortunately, there are one or two lines there, particularly in reference to Islamic law, which I think should be cause for concern. 

ABRAMS:  Well let me read.  Islam is the official religion of the state and is a basic source of legislation.  No law can be passed that contradicts the undisputed rules of Islam.  No law can be passed that contradicts the principles of democracy.  No law can be passed that contradicts the rights and basic freedoms outlined in this constitution.

I mean I don‘t see how you get around no law can be passed that contradicts the undisputed rules of Islam. 

GARDINER:  Yes, and I think certainly many will try to interpret the constitution in terms of the application of Sharia law and I think that we have to be very, very careful in terms of the final drafting of this constitution.  I think the United States and Great Britain should certainly express concern over the final draft of this document and express their firm opposition to the establishment of Sharia law and to rule by un-elected clerics.

ABRAMS:  Yes.  Professor Cole, I mean look—I mean I understand that this concern is theoretical in the sense that we don‘t know exactly how it‘s going to be interpreted at a later date.  But the fact that there is a possibility that this constitution could lead to Iraq becoming an Islamic state is frightening. 

JUAN COLE, UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN:  Well, in some ways, Iraq already is an Islamic state.  Many of the provinces are ruled by the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq, which is a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Shiite religious party.  Militias patrol the streets...

ABRAMS:  That‘s different than...

COLE:  ... with a religious agenda.

ABRAMS:  But that‘s different than a national, right...

(CROSSTALK)

COLE:  The constitution—wording actually in Arabic is even stronger.  It doesn‘t say rules.  It says laws.  No legislation may be passed that contravenes Islamic law.  And so obviously, there‘s some contradiction here.  Probably the Shiite religious parties will try to put Shiite clerics on the bench of the courts so as to ensure it‘s the former principle that‘s implemented. 

ABRAMS:  And let me read from that portion.  This is about the Iraq—the Supreme Court, sort of to be determined.  The Parliament will decide if Islamic law, the Sharia experts predominate on the Supreme Court. 

Quote—“The Supreme Federal Court will be made up of a number of judges and experts in Sharia and law whose number and the manner of their selection will be defined by a law that should be passed by two-thirds of the parliament members.”

That basically seems to be saying that parliament will decide how many religious leaders serve on its highest court. 

COLE:  That‘s exactly right.  And since the Shiite community is the majority, they‘re hoping to be able to have at least four or five of the nine Supreme Court judges be clerics. 

ABRAMS:  Isn‘t that frightening? 

COLE:  Well I suppose it‘s frightening if one doesn‘t have the confidence in the justice of the clerics and the system of Islamic law.  I‘m simply explaining how it looks like it‘s going to work.  And there are countervailing principles in the constitution that do demand civil rights and human rights of an international sort.  But of course, at the end of the day, it will be the personnel in the judiciary that decides which principle predominates. 

ABRAMS:  All right.  Final word on this, Mr. Gardiner, is to sort of—where should our level of concern be?  I mean Professor Cole is cautiously analyzing sort of what this means, but as a practical matter, is this cause for concern or is that concern being overstated?

GARDINER:  No, I think it‘s certainly a major cause for concern, although we should recognize that this constitution, I think, is a tremendous achievement and it‘s pretty unique across the Middle East, I think, in terms of its recognition of democratic rights and individual liberty and freedom.  So I think there‘s a huge amount of good in this constitution and we should broadly support it, although we should raise concerns about the possibility of the imposition of Sharia law...

ABRAMS:  Yes.

GARDINER:  ... especially in the southern parts of the country.

ABRAMS:  And we should point out, of course, that some people would argue that our constitution has contradictions in it as well.  Juan Cole and Nile Gardiner, thank you very much.  Appreciate it. 

GARDINER:  Thank you.

ABRAMS:  Coming up, we all agree sex offenders can put our kids at risk, but I‘m sick and tired of cities and towns saying oh, they‘re not going to live in our community.  So then what?  They go next door.  No one‘s addressing the real problems.  It‘s my “Closing Argument”. 

And our continuing series “Manhunt: Sex Offenders on the Loose”, our effort to find missing sex offenders before they strike again.  Our focus this week, Alaska. 

Authorities looking for Richard Lee Urquhart, convicted in 1988 of sexually abusing a minor, 53, 5‘10”, 145, hasn‘t registered with the authorities.  If you‘ve got any information, please contact Alaska‘s Department of Public Safety—see the number -- 907-269-0396.

We‘re back in a minute.

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ABRAMS:  My “Closing Argument”—how to really deal with the problem of convicted sex offenders.  First, what doesn‘t really help?  Seems every day, another town, municipality or city passes a law saying convicted sex offenders can‘t live within some huge distance.  Sometimes a mile of a school, park, daycare center, often just far enough so that no sex offenders can live in that community.  Each one trying to outdo the other by making their restrictions that much tougher.  Sounds good.  The politicians get credit, but it doesn‘t really address the problem. 

Kicking them out of one area just means they move somewhere else.  Some other well-intentioned community with kids they love gets stuck with a higher percentage of convicted sex offenders.  Whenever I asked one of the mayors or councilmen about the neighboring city or county, well they say maybe they need to pass this type of law as well.  OK, so we eventually get to the point where they‘re not permitted anywhere in the country.  Nuclear waste has to be buried somewhere.  Released sex offenders have to live somewhere. 

So what can we do?  Well how about rather than focusing on how many blocks away from a school they can‘t live, keep them off of school grounds.  Schools and other places where kids congregate should make sure there are no convicted sex offenders who have targeted children working on the premises, even as temps or contractors, as was the case with John Couey who later killed 9-year-old Jessica Lunsford.  That‘s a lot scarier than a sex offender who lives half a mile from a school. 

And maybe most important, more resources need to be devoted to catching wanted sex offenders, particularly the dangerous ones.  Not the 18-year-old who had sex with his 16-year-old girlfriend.  I‘m tired of hearing about these wanted offenders who are only found after they strike again.  That‘s why on this program, we‘ve been going state by state, putting up pictures of the most wanted sex offenders in each state.  We‘re going to do this for 50 weeks in the hope that we can help. 

Tougher sentences, if they‘re needed for violent offenders, let‘s do it.  Most states are already reexamining their laws to make sure the sentences are tough enough.  Others are keeping some of the worst of the worst locked up even after their sentence has been served.  They‘re deemed a danger to the community.  The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that in some cases it‘s constitutional.  Tune in tomorrow night for another ABRAMS REPORT exclusive as we go inside McNeil Island off of Washington State, the only island in the country where sex offenders are sent after they have served their prison time. 

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IDA BALLASIOTES, DAUGHTER KILLED BY SEX OFFENDER:  There‘s only one way to get there and that‘s by boat, so it worked for that reason.  And I think when people say oh why don‘t you put them on an island?  It‘s kind of out of sight, out of mind.  They can‘t get off. 

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ABRAMS:  Bottom line, there are a lot of possible solutions.  It takes money.  It takes commitment, but not hollow words and ineffective legislation. 

Coming up, your e-mails on the Natalee Holloway case.  Many of you questioning that report that an Aruban teen is going to come forward to accuse Joran van der Sloot of unwanted sexual advances.  Coming up.

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ABRAMS:  I‘ve had my say, now it‘s time for “Your Rebuttal”.  Yesterday a local Aruban paper reported that a young woman is about to go to the authorities with a new accusation against the only suspect in custody in the Natalee Holloway case, Joran van der Sloot.  Her lawyer reportedly saying she will say he drugged and raped the girl. 

Kathy Lemaire in Adams, Massachusetts, “I find it a little strange that three months later now a girl says she was drugged and raped.”

From Rame (ph), North Dakota, Patti Holly on the newspaper that reported this incident, “Diario”.  “Hmm, am I the only one who finds it strange that all the new witnesses and evidence seem to come directly from the ‘Diario‘ newspaper and/or folks surrounding it?”

It is kind of funny, I have to say Patti.  I mean it‘s interesting.  And I said if these allegations against Joran are true, this paints a very different picture than Shelby Cadmus offered, an American teen from New Jersey who dated him, invited Joran to stay at her house.  We had an exclusive interview with Shelby and other mother.  It seems like the other networks are still trying to get—sneak in tape recorders, this and that.

Sally Miller in Richmond, Indiana, “I fail to understand why you feel it‘s fair to present this young man in a favorable light for even one moment.  The young woman and her mother who insist Joran is a fine young gentleman are extremely na‹ve.  Obviously, he‘s able to compartmentalize his behaviors.”

Maybe, Sally.  Why is it so obvious, as you put it?  Have you spoken to him? 

Your e-mails abramsreport—one word-- @msnbc.com.  We go through them at the end of the show. 

“OH PLEAs!”—with gases prices so high two guys were searching for the best steal at the pump.  McKinley Chase and Dajuan Lord from Indiana strapped for some gasoline, allegedly drove to a construction company‘s property, helped themselves to some gasoline gratis.  The petrol pinchers were spotted by an employee siphoning fuel out of another car‘s tank when the witnesses called police. 

You‘d think the gas thieves would have an easy escape with their newly fueled getaway car.  That is, if they‘d stolen the right kind of gas.  Chase and Lord poured off-road grade diesel fuel into their car, making the car useless.  They were arrested Sunday on preliminary charges of felony.  The fumes apparently went straight to their head. 

All right.  That does it for us tonight.  Tomorrow on the program we are going to have a special look, an exclusive look at this island.  An island where sex offenders who have served their time are sent.  Everyone says, why not send them to an island?  Well in Washington State, they‘re doing that.  How are they doing that?  Is it working?  Tune in tomorrow. 

Up next, “HARDBALL” with Chris Matthews.  Good night.

END

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