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'The Situation with Tucker Carlson' for Aug. 25

Read the transcript to the Thursday show

Guest: Bianca Jagger, Cathy Makowski, Catherine Sanders

TUCKER CARLSON, HOST:  We are live with shocking new statistics about sex offenders, a study that claims men are smarter than women—we didn‘t make that up—and the fast emerging phenomenon of witches in this country. 

But first, an update from the state of Florida.  Hurricane Katrina came ashore north of Miami about four hours ago.  Katrina, a Category 1 hurricane, packed sustained winds of 80 miles per hour.  Over one million Floridians now without power. 

Katrina has claimed at least two lives.  Early this evening, a man was killed in Ft. Lauderdale when a tree ripped down by high winds hit his car.  In nearby Plantation, a pedestrian was killed also by a tree torn apart by hurricane winds. 

We‘ll tell you more later in the show with NBC‘s Weather Plus update. 

But first, joining me from Los Angeles—excuse me, frog in the throat—to break down the rest of today‘s news, human rights advocate, Bianca Jagger.

Bianca, thanks a lot. 


CARLSON:  First up, a genuinely shocking revelation from Iraq.  The Italian Red Cross smuggled injured Iraqi insurgents through American checkpoints to get medical care, in a deal to free Italians being held hostage by America‘s enemies in that country. 

This information comes from the outgoing head of the Italian Red Cross, who says the Italian government had no direct involvement in the plan, but was made aware of it. 

Bianca, this is genuinely a big deal.  The Italian Red Cross, harboring terrorists.  The Red Cross is not supposed to take sides.  It seems to me they‘ve become a combatant in this war by taking on terrorists, harboring them, sneaking them through American lines, and treating them in secret. 

The next time a Red Cross worker is killed, it will be a tragedy, but it will also be understandable. 

JAGGER:  But how do you ask yourself, really, what is more important here, is that Silvio Berlusconi‘s government was informed, and he agreed with that.  And that shows you how the support that Bush has in other countries is really dying down.

And really, I mean, can you imagine the conversation that he will have today with Silvio Berlusconi, when he will call him and say, “Now, Silvio, why did you allow the Red Cross to take care of four insurgents?”

And by the way, I mean, at the same time...

CARLSON:  Hold on.  Let me say, we don‘t know that the Italian government allowed this.  We only know that they had knowledge of it. 

But aren‘t you troubled by the fact that a human rights organization -

you‘ve worked with a lot of them—is essentially taking sides in this war, and in fact, taking the wrong side?  No matter how you feel about the war in Iraq, I think we can all agree the Iraqi insurgents who blow up school children at bus stops are evil.  Aren‘t you troubled by the fact that the Italian Red Cross is essentially on their side in this one case?

JAGGER:  Well, I want to say the following.  We don‘t know the full information about what happened first.  There was little today in the web site that one could find about what really happened in Iraq when the hostages were freed.  And the other thing, what became clear, though, is that the Italian government was informed. 

Now, it is important to point out, as well, that the Italian Red Cross does not respond to the Red Cross in Geneva, so it is an entirely different thing.  We need to investigate and know more about it.  We need to know, as well, whether the Italian government was fully informed and they agreed with.... 

CARLSON:  I‘ll be interested to see.  I think this is a bigger scandal than Abu Ghraib, by far, and I will be interested to see what the International Red Cross does about it. 

The Italian Red Cross may not be directly reporting to the International Red Cross, but it does share a name, and most people think they‘re affiliated.  And I think they are, in fact, affiliated.  And I‘ll be interested to see if the International Red Cross disassociates itself from the Italian Red Cross if this is in fact true, and I hope they do. 

JAGGER:  The one thing we didn‘t say was that part of the deal was to bring four children who were suffering from leukemia to Italy to be treated, and I think that there is nothing wrong.  Children are children; it doesn‘t matter which side. 

CARLSON:  That‘s absolutely right, but I am sure the Italian Red Cross would have been happy to bring those children to Italy under any circumstances without harboring terrorists in the process. 

But on to the home front and the Iraq war in this country. 

Developments from Cindy Sheehan‘s antiwar camp in Crawford, Texas.

Late today, Reverend Al Sharpton, a frequent guest on this show, announced plans to join Sheehan in Crawford on Sunday for a prayer vigil.  Also today, Sheehan says she plans to leave Texas at the end of August and make a three-week anti-war bus tour to conclude in Washington on September 24. 

Now, Bianca, if you‘re against the war, and I think you are, you ought to oppose Cindy Sheehan.  Because Cindy Sheehan‘s rhetoric is completely unhelpful to the anti-war cause, because it‘s so extreme. 

She compares the president of the United States to Adolph Hitler.  She calls him a terrorist.  She attacks the United States itself.  She says America is not worth dying for.  These are not the positions of sober, thoughtful anti-war activists, OK?  These are the rantings of someone who‘s not quite in control of herself.  She hurts your cause. 

JAGGER:  Well, all I can say is that Cindy Sheehan loves her son.  That is not something that I have ever experienced, nor have you, nor has President Bush, nor will he ever face a situation like she has.

And it is important to understand what we are fighting this war for.  There were no weapons of mass destruction.  That was a lie.  There was no connection between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda.  In fact, al Qaeda is now in Iraq.  There were no real imminent threat to the United States.  And, you know, what is extraordinary...

CARLSON:  Wait, hold on.  I agree with you. 

JAGGER:  ... is that he continue to be deluding himself when he talks about we will win this war, we will not abandon Iraq. 

CARLSON:  But actually I‘m not even disagreeing with you.  I am opposed to this war, from a conservative perspective and for conservative reasons, but most of what you said is true. 

But I want to give you—I‘m talking about Cindy Sheehan in particular.  She is the kind of anti-war celebrity of the moment.  George Will collected a number of things she said recently in one column.

Let me just read you one sentence: “She called Bush a lying bastard, a filth spewer, an evil maniac, the Fuhrer, the world‘s biggest terrorist, who‘s committing, waging nuclear war in Iraq.” 

OK.  This is not—I will grant you her son died, and she may be having some episode, entirely understandable.  However, these are not the statements of a rational person.  This is not a suitable standard barrier for your side, for the anti-war side. 

JAGGER:  Well, I think that Cindy Sheehan is going to do a lot more to gather people together against the war than people and politicians have done until now. 

Perhaps she has been irrational in some of her statements.  If it is true what you‘re say, which I don‘t know, because I haven‘t read that, perhaps she is, but perhaps if I had a son or a daughter who was killed in the war, perhaps I myself would become irrational.  I mean, we are analyzing this from a perspective, from an intellectual perspective, without being really personally being her.  All right...

CARLSON:  And yet there are 1,800 mothers in this country whose children have died in the Iraq war, and I don‘t notice hundreds or even dozens or really any of them with Cindy Sheehan on her bus tour.  And it tells you something, just because you lose a child in war, doesn‘t mean you get to compare the president to Hitler. 

JAGGER:  Tucker, I think you will find a lot more mothers, a lot more fathers will come out and speak against the war.  I think President Bush is having a great problem with the army to convince him that they have to continue this war. 

He is irrational when he says that he doesn‘t rule out attacking Iran.  I mean, is he out of his mind?  Where is he going to get the army to be able to go and attack another country?

CARLSON:  All right.  That‘s an entirely different topic, which we‘ll no doubt take up soon.

But first, Americans united in revulsion and anger against sex offenders, whose horrifying crime stories, told frequently on shows like this one, and throughout cable news.

But if you‘re watching other cable news, you might get the sense that sex crimes are on the rise.  Not true.  And new government study indicates quite the opposite numbers, in fact.  The numbers show sex assaults against kids age 12 to 17 dropped 79 percent from 193 to 203, cases against children of all ages dropped 39 percent in the same 10 years. 

There‘s still too many sex crimes, obviously, but for a little bit of perspective here, there are about 40 to 50 kids killed each year by sex offenders.  It‘s horrifying, terrifying, I‘m not in any way defending or attempting to minimize it, but there are many times that number who drown in bathtubs, right?  All right, so this gives you a little bit of perspective.  We are, in fact, winning, making great gains in the war against sex criminals, and we ought to celebrate it. 

JAGGER:  Yes, but we must be very cautious.  Remember, that there are 400,000 sex offenders, and of those, about 100,000 are not really responding and letting us know where they are or letting the police know where they are. 

I think that we are on the right track.  It is important we have legislation.  I think we have to even make legislations that are tougher on them to be able to really inform parents and families when there is a sex offender nearby them.  It is important to have therapy, as apparently it‘s part of the situation has improved, but we should not cry victory and think that this is the end of the battle against sex offenders. 

CARLSON:  Well, that is a very smart point, which may be surprising, in light of this next story. 

I‘m actually just kidding, and I want our viewers to know not to shoot the messenger.  We are merely reporting the news.  And you decide what to make of it.

But a paper to be published soon in a “British Journal of Psychology” suggests that men, by an average of five I.Q. points, smarter than women.  The study of 24,000 subject studied that twice as many men than women had I.Q.‘s of at least 125.  Five and a half times as many men scored at least 155 on the I.Q. test.  That‘s genius level.

Again, send those cards and letters to the “British Journal of Psychology.”  Ladies, we again merely report.  You decide. 

How do you feel about that, Bianca Jagger, and do you understand the question?

CARLSON:  Tucker, I suppose that this is made for you, and that you‘re thrilled that it‘s been said. 

Now, I would like to say one of the arguments that the scientist has, which, by the way, is a very controversial person already in his statements about race and about other findings...


JAGGER:  ... that he has made in the past is that the difference has to do with the size of the brain of men versus the size of the brain of women. 

Well, probably he has forgotten of people who were small, like Napoleon.  And will he then say that perhaps he was less intelligent than others, or will he then, as well, say that bigger men have more I.Q., are more intelligent than smaller men?

CARLSON:  Well, I think his point is that men have brains that are on average 10 percent larger.  I think Napoleon had just a gargantuan noggin.  But basically, all he did was take the I.Q. scores of 24,000 people, divide by sex, and came up with the fact that men have higher I.Q.‘s on average. 

What do you think of that?

JAGGER:  Let me say something serious for example.  I mean, men are better educated in general than women. 

CARLSON:  Right. 

JAGGER:  That is the first thing.  We are—women, in general, we‘re still discriminated with parents and particularly in developing neighbors educate their children, and we expect for a woman to be—that is perhaps not the case in America, not completely, but it is the case in many countries.  Even though today we think women are completely independent and we are equal in many ways to men, there is still a great discrimination against women.

And I think that will account for the fact that perhaps you see better I.Q.‘s in men, because they are better educated than the overall number of women. 

CARLSON:  That‘s a good theory.  It‘s a smart theory. 

JAGGER:  Absolutely foolish. 

CARLSON:  OK.  I like women.  There‘s no discrimination in my house.  I just want to get that out for the record.  Bianca Jagger, thank you very much. 

JAGGER:  Thank you. 

CARLSON:  Still to come, “The Outsider,” Max Kellerman, checks in.  Max, they have banned anti-Yankee T-shirts from Fenway Park in Boston.  Do you have anything “G” rated to say about that?

MAX KELLERMAN, ESPN:  Absolutely nothing, nothing good to say about Boston either. 

CARLSON:  Good.  I can‘t wait to hear you expound more on Boston. 

Also ahead, the strange disappearance of Grammy nominated music producer. 

Did his vanishing have something to do with a Nigerian Internet scam? 

Details ahead.

Plus, authorities calling Anthony Makowski‘s parking lot strangulation, quote, “an excusable homicide.”  That‘s an actual phrase.  Up next, we‘ll talk to his mother, who says police have made a horrible decision. 

Stay tuned.


CARLSON:  Still ahead, an update on the missing boyfriend of Olivia Newton-John.  He‘s still missing. 

Plus, why the term ghetto fries is causing some restaurant goers to lose their appetites.  Stay tuned.


CARLSON:  Welcome back. 

It‘s time for tales of wrongdoing and justice served.  It‘s “THE SITUATION Crime Blotter,” our nightly summary of who done it and who caught them. 

First up on the blotter, a case that turned out to be not a crime after all.  As we first reported on this show last night, teen actress Scout Taylor-Compton disappeared from her California home more than two weeks ago.  Today she was found at a friend‘s house in good condition. 

Police say, quote, “She was a runaway juvenile and just didn‘t want to be found.”  She was found anyway. 

A missing persons case still a mystery, Grammy nominated music producer Chris Julian disappeared Sunday.  He called a friend almost four in the morning to say he was being chased down a ravine, by people with dogs who were trying to kill him.  One of the few clues, a pair of the missing man‘s glasses found behind the house. 

There are reports that Julian was involved in some sort of Nigerian Internet scam, and may have been threatened by the con artist involved.  Police have so far refused to comment. 

And the latest on yet another disappearance.  Olivia Newton-John has now been pulled into the investigation of her missing boyfriend, Patrick McDermott.  U.S. Coast Guard wants to know why it took so long for Newton-John to report McDermott missing, saying the delay hampered the probe.  Dermott was last seen June 30, but was not reported missing until July 11. 

Our next story involves a decision by Florida prosecutors that some say is a crime in itself. 

A fight in a McDonald‘s parking lot ended with one man dead of strangulation.  When prosecutors reviewed a security tape that captured the fight, they ruled the death, quote, “an excusable homicide,” because the video showed the victim, Anthony Makowski, to be the aggressor in the fight, they said.  The state‘s attorney‘s office declined to prosecute. 

We‘re joined now by Anthony‘s mother, Cathy Makowski.  Mrs. Makowski, thanks a lot for joining us. 


CARLSON:  I watched the tape today, or the portions of it that have been made publicly available, and it was not at all clear to me from the tape who was the aggressor.  Why do you think police have declined to bring this to a grand jury?

MAKOWSKI:  Well, because there‘s a vital part to this that is missing, and that is the actual attack.  My son was attacked, and it resulted from a very innocent gesture of a honking of a horn. 

The two aggressors were in the front of this vehicle.  They came.  They attacked with flash light, beer bottle.  They strangled my son up to three minutes, and they would not let go until they saw the deputy coming. 

They have admitted their crime.  They have lied to the police on the scene, preventing very important medical attention, and they called this excusable homicide.  I am outraged. 

CARLSON:  Well, I—I can see why you‘re outraged.  It sounds outrageous, but do you have any idea why?  Is there something else going on here that we don‘t understand?  Because looking at this case it seems pretty simple.  Your son got into a fight at a McDonald‘s drive-through, and he was strangled to death in front of a lot of witnesses.  Why aren‘t prosecutors bringing this to trial?  Is there something we don‘t know?

MAKOWSKI:  Well, because they are not attending to the vital evidence.  I was called in from the hospital.  The E.R. records state that my son was attacked and choked with a flash light.  They have not addressed that.  No one has researched that.  That part of the tape is missing, and they are just basing this on selected portions of a tape, which has never been enhanced.  It has never been frame by frame.  They are predisposing a certain conclusion, and that‘s what they are doing.

And it is just because of the fact, I believe, that the deputy was negligent.  And this is a situation where there are politics involved.  And I don‘t feel that we had a fair trial.  This did not go to grand jury.  It was decided among just a few individuals.  And I think this is an outrage. 

CARLSON:  Now there have been reports that the man who killed your son, Martin Robless-Taylor, has bragged about the killing.  Is that true that you know of?

MAKOWSKI:  Yes, that is true.  From many friends, I have heard that this person is actually—has the audacity to go out in our community and brag about such an awful violent crime. 

CARLSON:  Now, do you have any recourse?  Is there anything you can do?  Is there any way you can spur the local state‘s attorney or the prosecutors to act on this?

MAKOWSKI:  I have called—I have been told that I should contact FDLE, which is the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.  I have a couple of calls in to them.  They have not returned my calls as of yet.  I am hoping that that will be attended to, that they will reinvestigate this case, and bring it to a grand jury decision. 

CARLSON:  Now, is...

MAKOWSKI:  I think...

CARLSON:  Again, just getting—I just want to make certain we‘ve exhausted all possible explanations here.  Had your son had run-ins with police before?  Did he have a criminal record?  Was there something the police had animus against him?  You suggested that they didn‘t like him.  Is there a reason for that?

MAKOWSKI:  Oh, no, absolutely not.  He was a good boy.  He was a very good-natured kid.  He has never even been in a fight.  We have thousands of signatures, letters from people all over the community that are just outraged at this. 

CARLSON:  All right, Cathy Makowski.  This really, then, is a stunning story.  Thanks a lot for coming on.  We appreciate it. 

MAKOWSKI:  Thank you for giving me this opportunity.  Thank you.

CARLSON:  Coming up, “Witchcraft” makes for a great song, and “Witches” a great book or movie, but what kind of religion do they amount to?  A world expert explains the growing trend of witchcraft. 

Plus, a new book declares that we are in the midst of revolution.  Could it be that geek is chic?  Probably not, but stay tuned for a heated debate anyway and decide who‘s the bigger nerd, me or “The Outsider,” next.


CARLSON:  Welcome back.  It‘s 12:24 tomorrow in Tokyo.  The Nikkei average is slightly higher as traders shrugged off inflation reports. 

And now it‘s time to welcome “The Outsider,” a man whose daily intake of news and information limited to the TiVo replay of himself, talking on this very segment.  But still, he joins us here every night to generate disagreement about actual things that happen in the world. 

From ESPN radio and HBO Boxing, the pride of P.S. 41, Max Kellerman. 

KELLERMAN:  You see right through me, Tucker Carlson. 

CARLSON:  Yes, I do, Max.  My X-ray vision. 

All right.  What do you call a dish comprised of French fries, cheddar cheese, peppers, gravy, barbecue sauce, and raw onions?

KELLERMAN:  Delicious. 

CARLSON:  No, at place called Max‘s Famous Italian Beef Stand, on the north side of Chicago, they call them “ghetto fries.”  The beef stand even sent out a press release, entitled “got ghetto?” to the local media to announce the healthy alternative to, say, deep fried Crisco. 

At least one patron of the “Chicago Sun-Times” took offense at the whole thing, and I do, too.  Cheddar cheese, peppers, gravy, barbecue sauce, raw onions.  That‘s an insult to black cuisine.  Basically, you‘re defiling French fries and blaming it on black people. 

KELLERMAN;  Well, ghetto doesn‘t mean just black.  In fact, Webster‘s dictionary definition is “place where Jews live.”  That‘s where the word came from. 

CARLSON:  That‘s true. 

KELLERMAN:  And any minority group on the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder, that includes black people.  But it sounds delicious to me, Tucker. 

CARLSON:  Look, Max, the whole concept, leaving aside the racial angle, the ghetto part of it, the whole concept is offensive.  OK?  French fries are the perfect food, almost as if they‘d been dropped from heaven.  You can‘t improve.  Maybe a tad, a tiny bit of catsup, possibly in some places, a little bit of vinegar. 


CARLSON:  The fact is, maybe salt, but you don‘t even need that, because French fries are perfect already. 

KELLERMAN:  Did you ever have garlic fries?

CARLSON:  Yes, garlic fries are awesome. 

KELLERMAN:  Cheese fries?  You don‘t like cheese on your fries?

CARLSON:  No.  I think it‘s wrong. 

KELLERMAN:  By the way, the reason these are called ghetto fries, is because an employee that they called Ghetto Girl at this place kept putting stuff on it.  And by the way, they‘re flying out of the store, incidentally.  Everyone loves them, apparently. 

CARLSON:  Well, yes. 

KELLERMAN:  I know it‘s not...

CARLSON:  Some people went to see “Ishtar.”  That proves nothing. 

Some people have bad taste.  OK?  That‘s not an argument. 

KELLERMAN:  Tucker, I know it‘s not Wonder bread and mayonnaise, but it sounds good. 

CARLSON:  I have never had Wonder bread, and I don‘t eat mayonnaise.  I know a lot about French fries and a lot about fries.  I know a lot about cheese burgers.  And I can tell you, if you‘re throwing peppers and gravy. 

KELLERMAN:  So good. 

CARLSON:  It‘s just—it‘s over the top. 

KELLERMAN:  We have to agree to disagree here. 

CARLSON:  Ghetto fries, please. 

All right. 

KELLERMAN:  So delicious.

CARLSON:  Smarten up, Max.  It‘s a new era in this country, and geeks rule, that according to new book, “Geek Chic.”  The cool kids now wear T-shirts that say “Einstein is my homie” and “Math is radical.” 

The book says the new popularity of the formerly unpopular is the contemporary version of the hippies of the ‘60s and the punk rockers of the ‘70s. 

That, of course, was a reenactment from THE SITUATION players. 

As if.  I mean, look, there‘s always every generation, the dorks, always try to redefine themselves into coolness.  You know why?  Because the dorky kids in high school are the ones who wind up working for magazines, newspapers and wind up as sports writers. 

KELLERMAN:  Good point. 

CARLSON:  It‘s true.  It‘s totally true. 

KELLERMAN:  Yes.  Yes.

CARLSON:  But it still—it doesn‘t work.  Remember the whole Alan Alda thing, be sensitive, get in touch with your true feelings. 


CARLSON:  Women still dated the Neanderthals with the prehensile brows who grunt.  Right?

KELLERMAN:  Yes.  But listen, if that were the case, Tucker Fonzarelli, you‘d be in a very good position right now. 

I happen to agree with you here.  I‘m going to try to take the devil‘s advocate point of view best I can. 

First of all, hippies, it‘s questionable whether hippies and punk rockers were ever cool.  I kind of think they weren‘t.  But how can you really argue that geekery is nonconformist, and therefore, is cool?  Doesn‘t that inevitably lead to the conclusion that people are going to try to be cool, and therefore, being a geek—by being a geek, you conform, and therefore, be uncool?

CARLSON:  I think you‘re exactly right.  There is an internal irony to that argument, but it still doesn‘t change the fact that this is just raging of the geeks, now in positions of power and authority, against—retroactively the unpleasant time they had in high school. 

KELLERMAN:  No, listen, it‘s the kind—it‘s the kind of kid you saw wearing a bow tie writing for the school paper in high school who winds up on TV.  Oh, I‘m sorry.  Excuse me.

CARLSON:  I never wrote for the school paper.  You know what, actually?


CARLSON:  I know you‘re not going to believe this, Max, but when I was in high school, bow ties were cool.  I thought they were, anyway. 

KELLERMAN:  Apparently. 

CARLSON:  Max Kellerman, as always.  See you tomorrow. 

KELLERMAN:  See you, Tucker. 

CARLSON:  Stay tuned.  Still plenty more ahead on THE SITUATION. 

Here‘s some of it.


CARLSON (voice-over):  Shooting for new heights of glory.  You won‘t believe what this guy is aiming to do next.

And caught on tape, one viewer‘s sticky situation. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  You have your own opinion, but you suck. 

CARLSON:  Plus, how to take in the sights of Italy on just a shoestring budget. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  This is Rome, right?





CARLSON:  Hello, welcome back.

Time now for a genuine curiosity, something we specialize in, Wiccans or witches as most people know them.  According to the country‘s largest organization of witches there are at least 800,000 of them currently practicing here in the U.S.

According to a 1986 ruling by the U.S. Court of Appeals, they are in the eyes of the First Amendment anyway practicing a real religion.

Joining me now is an authority on the subject, author of the new book “Wicca‘s Charm” Catherine Sanders, Catherine, thanks a lot for joining us.

CATHERINE SANDERS, AUTHOR “WICCA‘S CHARM”:  Thank you so much for having me.  It‘s good to be here.

CARLSON:  So, tell us just—the obvious question what is Wicca?

SANDERS:  Wicca is modern pagan witchcraft.  They worship the earth and the powers, spirits that they say are in the earth.  There are, like you said, about 800,000 of them.  Two-thirds of them are women.

And, you know, one thing I think is interesting is to note what Wicca is not.  It is not the witch in “Bewitched.”  It‘s not, you know, Samantha twinkling her nose.  It‘s not, you know, a woman with her black cat.  Witches today are as likely to be down the street in Topeka, Kansas as they are to be seen, you know, our typical of them riding their broomstick.  It‘s become very commonplace.

CARLSON:  What do they believe?  Is there a creed?  Is there something that all of them hold in common?

SANDERS:  They believe in—they don‘t actually believe in absolute good or absolute evil.  They believe in spirits and they believe in the spell casting and they believe in being able to control essentially powers that be.  It‘s kind of like Native American spirituality in a way.

CARLSON:  Does it work?  I mean is there any—do you, I mean what do you think?  Do you think—is there any evidence that spell casting has any effect?

SANDERS:  You know they would like to tell you it has a huge effect.  I think it has, you know, they say for instance some of them were against the war in Iraq.  They say oh we‘ll just send magic their way and hopefully it will end.  But, you know, every witch I spoke to did say that it is real and that it can have, you know, negative consequences.

CARLSON:  What kind of negative consequences?

SANDERS:  They‘ve all told me about frightening experiences they‘ve had actually, you know, while practicing, while casting spells.  And the interesting thing, the thing that I think has made Wicca popular is people are saying that they‘re tired of organized religion and they want something that they can control and this is—they believe that they can, you know, control the spirit world essentially.

CARLSON:  So, by frightening experiences you mean when they discover that there really are these forces these spirits out there and they do something scary or what do you mean by frightening experiences?

SANDERS:  Yes.  In fact, I interviewed one girl, a girl in Livermore, California of all places, a ranching community known for ranches and labs essentially and there was a large pagan group at a high school there, kids, practicing witches and their parents attended this meeting I had with them and they were all for it.

But she told me that she was trying to—she was trying to cast a spell and she ended up having a very negative experience.  She said she felt this flutter of unprotected power.  It was very frightening but she says she wants to still practice it because it‘s meaningful to her.

CARLSON:  So what is the appeal?  I got the sense from your book it‘s mostly young people who are into it.  I mean what‘s the upside of witchcraft?

SANDERS:  You know really a lot of it is about girl power.  Witchcraft really came to prominence with the feminist movement.  What they do is they worship—like I said it‘s a pagan religion and they worship “Mother Earth” who they would call the great mother goddess and they, you know, would worship her and so therefore it‘s popular among women in particular.

And so, a lot of times you‘ll get, it‘s popular at feminist gatherings.  You‘ll get sort of—I went to this one feminist gathering where they had sort of the goddess market downstairs where they just feel like they can get in touch with their feminine side and that‘s why it‘s popular.

CARLSON:  Oh, it sounds kind of—sounds kind of flaky to me. 


CARLSON:  It is a threat?  Is it a threat to established religions, Christianity for instance do you think?

SANDERS:  It‘s definitely on the rise.  It is definitely not going away.  It used to be obviously, you know, witchcraft, you know, we would hear about people converting from Judaism to Christianity or Christianity to Buddhism but now people are readily admitting, yes sure, I‘ve converted to witchcraft.  It‘s become extremely commonplace and I think it‘s definitely on the rise and will not stop. 

It‘s particularly grown because of the Internet and the fact that, you know, a kid who is in Duluth, Minnesota can e-mail a witch in Salem now with a click of a mouse and this used to never happen obviously.

CARLSON:  Is there animal sacrifice involved or is that just Santeria?

SANDERS:  You know that is more something like Santeria.  There was a very strange case down in Virginia where a kid who was practicing Wicca said that he heard voices in his head and ended up committing murder but that, you know, definitely has been recorded to have happened.  But they typically as a practice don‘t hurt small animals because they obviously believe and have this sort of reverence for nature.

CARLSON:  So they got that going for them at least.

SANDERS:  Yes, they do.

CARLSON:  All right, Catherine Sanders, the book is “Wicca‘s Charm.”

SANDERS:  Thanks very much for having me.

CARLSON:  Doesn‘t sound like there‘s a lot of charm there but the book is good.  Thanks, Catherine.

SANDERS:  Thank you.

CARLSON:  Still ahead, Hurricane Katrina wreaks havoc in south Florida, an update from the NBC Weather Center when THE SITUATION returns.


VANESSA MCDONALD, SITUATION PRODUCER:  Still to come, what did a post office employee get caught doing to his office‘s coffee that has his co-workers going postal?

CARLSON:  You can‘t not watch that.  I dare you.  We‘ll be right back.


CARLSON:  Welcome back.

Tomorrow will certainly be a day of cleaning up the damage in South Florida.  That‘s head over to Bill Karins at the NBC Weather Center for a quick update on Hurricane Katrina—Bill.


CARLSON:  A hundred and ten miles an hour, that is brisk, thanks Bill. 

Thanks for working late.

KARINS:  No problem.

CARLSON:  Well, for the rest of tomorrow‘s news let us now welcome the Edward R. Murrow of the new millennium, our esteemed producer Willie Geist.

GEIST:  I keep getting more overrated every night.

CARLSON:  Every night we just lay it on thicker and thicker.

GEIST:  It‘s unbelievable.

You know they say that‘s a light category one hurricane but the stuff we‘ve seen it looks pretty bad. 

CARLSON:  A hundred and ten, yes.

GEIST:  If that‘s a good hurricane, I don‘t want to be in a bad one.

Here‘s the rest of tomorrow‘s news my man.

CARLSON:  Just thank God you‘re not on a plane trying to land in it.

GEIST:  That‘s right.

CARLSON:  All right.

We hope all the lights will be on tomorrow in southern California.  The summer heat and the loss of a major transmission line forced power officials to impose rolling blackouts today that left about a half a million Californians without power again.

High temperatures in southern California have forced a huge demand on the state‘s power companies that could not be sustained.  Power has now been completely restored for the moment.  It‘s not as if they didn‘t know it was coming.  I say this as a native Californian.  We‘re from southern California.

GEIST:  It gets hot.

CARLSON:  It gets hot, not that hot actually.  It‘s hotter out here than it is out there but, look, this is a state that spends a lot of time worrying about global warming.  They couldn‘t foresee this?  Most power plants run on coal.  We‘ve got a lot of coal.

GEIST:  Right.

CARLSON:  There‘s no reason for this to happen.

GEIST:  Well, I would just like to thank the power companies out there for getting the TV sets back on 8:00 p.m. Pacific time to watch THE SITUATION.

CARLSON:  Exactly.

GEIST:  That‘s why I‘m thankful, good work boys.

CARLSON:  Thank you, Willie.  Your self interest is impressive I have to say. 

All right, former Major League Baseball pitching phenom Dwight Gooden will be in a Tampa, Florida courtroom tomorrow.  Gooden turned himself in to police tonight three days after authorities said he fled the scene of a DUI traffic stop. 

Police say Gooden refused to get out of his car after being pulled over on suspicion of drunk driving Monday.  Then he drove away from the scene suddenly leaving his driver‘s license behind.  Gooden has a long history of substance abuse, no kidding. 

This is one of those stories where you sort of want to make fun of the guy but actually it‘s so pathetic.  You drive away leaving your driver‘s license with the cop?  I mean you‘re not even aware of where you are.

GEIST:  Well, he‘s got a problem and, Tucker, he is one if not the most tragic figure in sports history.  He was—he was an other worldly talent on his way to the Hall of Fame.  He won the Cy Young, the Rookie of the Year.  He won the World Series by the time he was 25.

And it all came apart because of drugs and it‘s sad.  It‘s sad to see.  And even his own family has basically given up on him.  His nephew Gary Sheffield plays for the Yankees has basically said, look, we‘ve done all we can do.  We put him in rehab.  We paid for it.  You‘re kind of on your own now.  It‘s very sad.

CARLSON:  There‘s really nothing worse than watching someone kill himself like that.

GEIST:  Especially a talent like that.

CARLSON:  Yes, Willie Geist see you in a minute.

GEIST:  All right.

CARLSON:  Still ahead, what would cause a performance artist to launch a human cannonball across the U.S./Mexico border into Tijuana?  It‘s not clear but I‘m told the answer lies on the Cutting Room Floor.  Stay tuned.


CARLSON:  Welcome back.

Sitting in for Gabe Kaplan, I‘m Tucker Carlson, get it, welcome back, Gabe Kaplan?  It‘s the kind of high level humor you‘ve come to expect on THE SITUATION.

Anyway, obviously it‘s time for our voice mail segment.  You call in. 

We play what you say—first up.


BELLA, BAY CITY, TEXAS:  Hi, this is Bella calling from Bay City, Texas.  I‘m just calling in regards to Hawaii setting a cap here on gas prices.  I just think this is a wonderful idea and I can only hope that other states follow as these gas prices have just gotten way out of hand.


CARLSON:  Yes, it‘s a good plan, Bella, because one thing government does really well, manage economies.  Ask the North Koreans.  Actually, if there‘s one thing that can make the gas prices worse it‘s having the government step in and set arbitrary caps on gas prices.  As much as all of us very much including me would like that in the short term, terrible, terrible idea, tempting but wrong—next up.


WANDA, SOUTH CAROLINA:  Tucker, this is Wanda from South Carolina.  I cannot believe Max Kellerman sat there and did not offer one word of support for Lance Armstrong.  Instead, he said let the Europeans have their (INAUDIBLE) and their cycling.  I‘d say let the Europeans have Max Kellerman.  We don‘t need him.  He‘s so mouthy and so sassy.


CARLSON:  You know, Wanda, that‘s a really solid idea, so solid we thought of it before.  Unfortunately, the new E regulations prohibit it.  You can‘t even get him over the Belgian border.  They take one look at Max Kellerman, boom, they deport him to Turkey just like that, good idea though.


BRAIN, NEW JERSEY:  Hey Tucker this is Brain in New Jersey and I‘m just calling to say that if you ever have another psychic on your show, I will never watch it ever again.  That was the most nonsensical rambling I‘ve ever heard.  How can she even call herself a psychic?  She was giving advice to Cindy Sheehan.  She didn‘t make any predictions.


CARLSON:  OK.  You didn‘t care for Jackie Stallone or was it her dog, the male dog named Rachel (ph), who was dressed in pearls who is also a channeler psychic by the way?  It was not a high point, I‘ll agree with you.  There was something kind of compelling about it don‘t you think?  As one of our producers said after, it was pretty bad but I couldn‘t turn the channel.  I don‘t know.  That‘s my defense.  Maybe you‘re right—all right, next up.


ANONYMOUS:  Hey, Tucker, I heard your comments about how you don‘t like dog catchers.  We prefer to be called animal control officers.  That‘s what most fire department agencies and police department call us whenever we go to back them up, so that was really uncalled for.  You have your own opinion but you suck.


CARLSON:  I‘m sure you do prefer to be called an animal control officer.  It‘s like people who own casinos prefer to be called in the gaming business.  But I‘m not going to call you that.  You‘re a dog catcher and I‘m impressed you would admit it.  Most people wouldn‘t. 

The idea that you back up the police department or the fire department and then you‘re linking yourself to these honorable traditions of public lifesaving; pretty appalling actually, so I may suck but at least I‘m not a dog catcher.

All right, that‘s it for tonight.  Let me know what you‘re thinking, number 1-877TCARLSON or 877-822-7576.  Leave your name, hometown and a brief message.  If you‘re a dog catcher, don‘t bother calling.  We don‘t want to hear from you.  Thanks.

We‘ll be right back.  Still ahead on THE SITUATION, Rome may not have been built in a day but with the help of a jogging tour guide you can see Rome in a day.  We‘ll take in the sights on the Cutting Room Floor next.


CARLSON:  Oh, yes, we‘re back.  Time for the Cutting Room Floor, all the ends and ends of news we couldn‘t pack in.  Willie Geist is here with them.

GEIST:  Way to go, Tucker, you ran off the entire dog catching demographic.  That‘s big advertising dollars.

CARLSON:  We need every viewer we can get.

GEIST:  Alpo, all that advertising, you blew it buddy.

We got a good lineup here, dig in.

CARLSON:  This is always a great segment but I think tonight is going to be particularly great.

Well, it‘s pretty hard to shock people in Tijuana but even the most jaded TJ local will be in for a surprise when a human cannonball flies into town on Saturday.

GEIST:  Wow.

CARLSON:  Performance artist Javier Teyes (ph) plans to launch a human being from a cannon across the U.S./Mexico border.  He‘s making a statement about the need for open borders he says.  Teyes also has plans to have 35 mental patients dressed in clown costumes performing at the event.  Will they have those big Mariachi guitars too, the mental patients?

GEIST:  I‘m still processing that last bit of information.  I think the medical patients in the clown suits are really what‘s going to bring the issue home to everyone.

CARLSON:  Not medical patients.  It‘s mental patients.

GEIST:  Oh, mental patients, excuse me.  I think open the borders and do it for the mentally ill clowns.

CARLSON:  (INAUDIBLE) right, that‘s absolutely right.

GEIST:  That‘s well done.

CARLSON:  If there‘s one thing that makes me want to open the borders, it‘s 35 patients in clown costumes.

GEIST:  Dancing in clown suits.

CARLSON:  Come on in. 

All right, a pair of California ministers believe Christians just aren‘t dedicating their time enough to porn.  Well, at least they‘re talking about porn.  Pastors Craig Gross (ph) and Michael Foster (ph) are planning a national porn Sunday for October 9th  It will be a day when Christians can talk about the problem of porn in the church.  Gross and Foster hope to initiate programs to help deal with the elephant in the pews they say that is porn.

GEIST:  Yes.  I think they better set up a few extra folding chairs in the annex that Sunday because you advertise porn Sunday you‘re going to get a lot of new parishioners.  It‘s also not my experience that the more you talk about porn the less interested you are in it, you know what I mean?  This might not be the right approach.

CARLSON:  That is such a deep point, actually, and I can say...

GEIST:  Deeply true.

CARLSON:  The Episcopal Church I go to on Sunday there‘s no issue with porn.

GEIST:  Well there will be October 9th.  They‘ll be discussing it.

CARLSON:  We don‘t have a porn problem in my church.  All right.

Well, if you‘re a quality over quantity kind of tourist, and who isn‘t, we‘ve got the perfect way for you to see Rome.  A multilingual personal trainer is offering jogging tours of the heavily visited Italian city.  The guide leads fitness conscious tourists on a high speed trek around all of Rome‘s major sites, including the Coliseum and, of course, the Vatican.  The new sport is called site jogging.

GEIST:  Tucker, I just have to say it‘s moments like this when the fitness freaks really irritate me.  We get it.  You like to exercise.  Go get yourselves a headset, get in line and take the audio tour with the rest of us.

CARLSON:  Exactly.

GEIST:  Just relax.  You‘re on vacation for God‘s sakes.

CARLSON:  Or have a glass of red wine and get in a gondola or something.

GEIST:  Right.

CARLSON:  You know what I mean?

GEIST:  Stop running on vacation.  Just stop.

CARLSON:  I hate Yuppies, you know what I mean.  They‘re just, ooh, so (INAUDIBLE).

GEIST:  That‘s good, now the Yuppie demographic and the dog catchers.

CARLSON:  The Yuppie dog catchers will never watch again.

Well, Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra developed a brilliant new way of controlling his unruly press corp.  He sounds a buzzer every time a reporter asks a question he deems “not constructive.”  Thaksin introduced the device at a press conference today.

When one journalist asked a question critical of the government, the prime minister sounded the alarm and exclaimed “not constructive.”  The device lets out a pleasant tone when Thaksin gets a question he approves of.

GEIST:  Is that how he talks?

CARLSON:  That‘s how I imagine he talks.

GEIST:  This is such a...

CARLSON:  He‘s Thai.

GEIST:  This is such a cool way to deflect media criticism, just turn it into a game show.  It‘s so good.  He should bring back the last two for a showcase showdown, the two most constructive reporters, give away a camper and some water skis to the best one.

CARLSON:  That is not constructive, Willie.

Well, if (INAUDIBLE) ever asks you how you take your coffee be sure to tell him in no uncertain terms hold the urine.  (INAUDIBLE), a postal employee in Akron, Ohio has been charged with adulteration of food, that‘s a crime, after he was videotaped putting urine in his co-workers‘ coffee.  The co-workers became suspicious of the taste of the coffee he prepared and they set up a camera to catch him the next time and they did.

GEIST:  Tucker, given what happened, what could happen and what has happened in postal worker episodes...


GEIST: ...I think you‘re happy to get away with a little urine in the coffee, you know what I‘m saying?  It ain‘t the worst thing that could have happened.

CARLSON:  No, no, I look at the other point of view.  This guy is taking his life into his hands.

GEIST:  That‘s right.

CARLSON:  You put urine in your co-workers‘ coffee, these people are armed and, you know, dangerous.

GEIST:  Very dangerous and I think he let them off easy with a little urine in the coffee.

CARLSON:  I think they let him off easy with an arrest.

GEIST:  Well.

CARLSON:  Willie Geist.

GEIST:  I don‘t think so.

CARLSON:  That‘s it for THE SITUATION tonight.  Thank you for watching.