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'Rita Cosby Live & Direct' for Oct. 5th

Read the transcript to the Wednesday show

Guests: Rod Wheeler, Cyril Wecht, Jamie Skeeters, Dave Holloway, Jeralyn Merritt, Pam Smart, Robert Fowler, Eleanor Pam, Gloria Allred, Milton Dykstra, Betty Dykstra

RITA COSBY, HOST:  And we start tonight with some breaking news in the case of a missing college student.  Taylor Behl vanished from Virginia Commonwealth University one month ago today.  And just a few hours ago, police found a body just 60 miles east of Richmond, in Mathews County, Virginia.  People close to the investigation tell us it is presumably the body of 17-year-old Taylor Behl.

Joining us now live to tell us how this body was discovered is reporter Ashley Wharton with NBC affiliate WWBT, on the scene in Mathews County.  Ashley, what can you tell us?

ASHLEY WHARTON, WWBT, MATHEWS COUNTY, VA:  Well, Rita, certainly, a lot of questions swirling around Mathews County, Virginia, tonight.  First and foremost, of course, what we are all wondering, is this body found today that of missing VCU freshman Taylor Behl?  Right now, police tell us it could be quite some time, possibly even days, before we know.  At this point, Richmond police chief Rodney Monroe won‘t even say if the body is that of a male or a female, but the information we do have certainly leads you to believe that this could, in fact, be the sad end to Taylor‘s story.

Police say through their detective work, looking at witness statements and photographs, something led them to believe Taylor had visited this area before.  It was actually two Virginia Commonwealth detectives who came here to check the area out earlier today and stumbled upon the badly decomposed body that was buried in a shallow grave.  Now, Mathews County is a very rural area about an hour east of Richmond.  The location where the body was found was a heavily wooded piece of land down a long dirt road.  There are no homes or buildings around it.

Again tonight, police not able to say if this is, in fact, the body of 17-year-old Taylor Behl, but they do believe Taylor had some sort of connection to this area, that she had perhaps been here before.  Now, police calling today‘s discovery the beginning of a long and extensive investigation.  They tell us they did notify Taylor‘s family earlier today about the discovery, just as a courtesy.  Of course, you have to hope for them that we‘ll get an answer sometime very soon.  Rita, back to you.

COSBY:  Ashley, thank you very much.

And for a lot more details on this case, let‘s bring in now former homicide detective Rod Wheeler and also forensic pathologist Dr. Cyril Wecht.

Rod, let me start with you.  What do you know Ashley‘s (SIC) connection to this location?


COSBY:  Rather, Taylor‘s connection.

WHEELER:  Absolutely.  What‘s interesting about this case right now, Rita, is the fact that—it‘s been said that the suspect in this case, the prime suspect, Ben Fawley, was actually down in the Mathews County area of Virginia on several previous occasions.  Now, I can tell you right away from a homicide investigator‘s standpoint, that‘s what we call direct evidence.  Now, this guy has been down there before.  Apparently, he had some dealings down there before.  So that may be related as to why, in fact, Taylor was down there.

The second thing that‘s really interesting that I just found out tonight, Rita, is the fact that from what I understand, the police were able to get evidence off of the undercarriage of Taylor‘s car, which, as you know, was located in the city of Richmond, not far from the university.  That soil that was underneath the car actually was the same type of soil that this body was found in today.  Now, that is absolutely direct evidence, if, in fact, it is the same soil.

COSBY:  Yes, that‘s pretty significant, Rod.  What about also a connection in terms of what led authorities here?  You have some information on what sort of a tip was, what the lead was.

WHEELER:  Well, you know, what‘s really interesting is that this guy, Ben Fawley, he has a Web site, OK, like a Weblog, and it‘s called (ph).  And on this Web site, he actually places pictures that he‘s taken, photographs that he‘s taken throughout the area.  Well, interestingly enough, I just discovered earlier today from searching the Internet, that this same area where this body was found was one of the pictures that was actually posted on his Web site.  Again, this is direct evidence.

Now, we don‘t know for sure if this is a direct link to this guy or not, but the fact remains this is very, very circumstantial that this guy would, in fact, have the same area posted on his Web site where this body was found today.

COSBY:  Yes, it‘s a lot of coincidences, you have to believe, and at the end of the day, do you say, Are they just coincidences?  Rod, hang with us.  I want to bring in Dr. Wecht.  What kind of condition would this body be in, if, indeed, it‘s Taylor Behl‘s—we‘re hearing presumably, it is—but if, indeed, it is, if she‘s been missing for a month?

DR. CYRIL WECHT, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST:  Rita, it will be a very bad condition.  There will be very little soft tissue left.  Keep in mind, the high temperatures that we have been having, the humidity that will be present there near the eastern shore of Virginia.  So it‘s not going to be possible to make a lot of determinations, such as beating injuries, contusions and lacerations.  If she had been strangled, it may be impossible to determine that because of the condition, the decomposition of the cartilaginous structures in the neck.  If she had skull fractures, that‘s a different story.

They‘ll be able to make DNA identification rather quickly.  They probably will make dental identification before they get DNA results back.  And that will kick in.  It probably has started already today with the obtaining of her dental records.

So I think the police will know—they probably already do know, but they certainly will know by tomorrow through forensic scientific evidence that this is Ms. Behl.  Then the process will be handled by the medical examiner‘s office to determine the cause of death.  They will look, of course, for any kind of extraneous material on her body, on her clothing, if the clothing be there, that will tie in...


COSBY:  Doctor, what if her clothing‘s ripped or torn?  That would certainly be an indication.

WECHT:  Yes, of course, it will be of some kind of a struggle.  I doubt very much that there‘s going to be any question about the manner of death, considering that the body is found in a shallow grave.  So it‘s going to be a question of determining when, which will be difficult to be precise about, as I‘ve already said.

But I think the other evidence is going to probably come in more from the investigative aspects in this particular case maybe than from the forensic scientific standpoint, the information re Ben Fawley and some other young men who evidently were skateboarding or something with her that evening.  So I think with this number of people involved and with the information, as the detective has pointed out, relating to Ben Fawley, I predict that the police are probably going to have this case solved within a matter of a couple of days or even less.

COSBY:  And Rod, two words, yes or no.  Do you believe the same thing?

WHEELER:  Oh, absolutely, Rita.  As a matter of fact, I can just tell you this real quick.  As you know, they started a grand jury about two days ago.  This is not unusual in this type of investigation.  The reason they did that is because they were going down the path of trying to identify an individual, a suspect.  And it‘s either going to be Ben Fawley or the other guy, I think his name is Jesse Schultz, in this case, where most of the evidence is pointing to.  So we should not be surprised if both of these guys, if not just one, isn‘t charged over the next day or two.

COSBY:  All right, guys.  Thank you very much, gentlemen.

And tonight, we‘re also going to continue to following this story.  We‘re going to have much more developments on the case of Taylor Behl a little bit later on in our show, as details continue to trickle in on this news that a body has indeed been found.

Tonight also, a chilling interview of one of the suspects in the disappearance Natalee Holloway.  We‘re hearing the voice of Deepak Kalpoe for the very first time as he talks about the night that the 18-year-old vanished in Aruba.  Some of the details are both shocking and disturbing.

And we‘re going to have a little clip for you in just a moment, but first, joining me now live is polygraph examiner Jamie Skeeters, who did this interview with him.  He‘s also the one who‘s asking Deepak the questions we‘re going to show you in a moment.  Also with us on the phone tonight is Dave Holloway, Natalee‘s father.

Jamie, let me first start with you.  Did you have some agreement with him that he would know he is recorded?  Was he aware that when he was with you, he was going to be recorded?

JAMIE SKEETERS, POLYGRAPH EXAMINER:  Yes.  Before the recording took place, I advised him I would be either recording video, tape recording him, one or both, any time from the moment we met on.

COSBY:  And Jamie, where did this particular—we‘re going to show a clip in a moment.  But where did this conversation take place?

SKEETERS:  This took place in my hotel room on the island of Aruba.

COSBY:  OK, so he went to you?  This wasn‘t a sort of a happenstance on the street?


COSBY:  He came to you?  He was in the hotel room?

SKEETERS:  Well, I had made contact with him earlier through another female, where I had conducted a polygraph examination on another individual.  This other individual had taken a voice stress polygraph.  There‘s no such animal, but that‘s it.  And this individual said that this witness had passed and implicating the judge, the prosecutor, the judge‘s son, Deepak, Satish and two others, that he witnessed them burying Natalee in the dump.

And Rita, you were there with me on that island.  You know how that dump is.  It‘s hell.  And I gave—I went over to conduct the polygraph on this individual because of the voice stress test that he took.  He did not pass my test, and he admitted that he was less than truthful.  This was more for reward and 15 minutes of fame.

And following that, since we have high standards, with the American Polygraph Association, it was my duty to go Deepak and the others and the police and tell them that the individual that they had for a witness that was going to testify against them was, in fact, lying.

And at that point, he wanted to see my polygraph because I videotape-record everything, at which time, he sent somebody up to my room to view it.  That person, in turn, called him up.  And he was in the lobby of the hotel—surprised me.  He came up, looked at it, and then he was satisfied that I was telling the truth and that I had credibility.

COSBY:  Jamie, hold on one second because I do want to show a little clip of the conversation.


COSBY:  Let me play a little bit here.


SKEETERS:  And the question I‘ll ask you is if you intentionally killed her.


SKEETERS:  If it was an accident, I can help all of you.  If you guys were partying, even if somebody had given her a date drug—I‘m sure she had sex with all of you.

KALPOE:  She did.  You‘d be surprised how simple it was.

To tell you quite frankly, dressed like a slut, talked like one, would go in a car with three strange guys, and her mother claiming her to be the goody two-shoes—enough of the BS already!


COSBY:  Let me bring in, if I could—Dave Holloway is with us on the phone.  Dave, you know, as a father, that‘s got to be infuriating and so frustrating for you to hear this man say this.

DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY‘S FATHER:  It is.  You want to reach through the TV set sometimes, but you have to refrain from those feelings and, you know, continue the investigation with the police authorities.

COSBY:  Yes, that‘s what I was going to say.  After hearing this, have you talked to the Aruban authorities?  Because here he‘s saying, Look, we all had sex with her, and he‘s calling your daughter names.

HOLLOWAY:  I did.  And I spoke directly with the prosecutor, and the prosecutor wants a copy of the tape, the full copy of the tape.  And I‘m hopeful that either Mr. Skeeters or the FBI can provide it to her.

COSBY:  You know, Dave, when you hear this, does it just make your stomach churn, even to hear him talking?

HOLLOWAY:  Oh, yes.  Absolutely.  You know, it just comes down to a situation where, you know, you try belittle your victim to justify your crime.  So you know, that‘s not surprising at all, and all the experts will probably agree with me on that.  You know, they just belittle their victim and make them appear to be insignificant in order to justify in their minds what they did.

COSBY:  It‘s disgusting!  In fact, let me show another little clip.  This is Deepak basically taking about the fact—he says, I have no friends.


SKEETERS:  Sometimes your closest friends, if they‘re worried, and this thing is that big, they‘ll burn you.

KALPOE:  I don‘t have any close friends anymore.  They‘re all gone.

SKEETERS:  Really?  Because of this?

KALPOE:  Everything is empty.


COSBY:  You know, Jamie, you know, you were there.  Did he seem remorseful in any way that he did anything wrong?

SKEETERS:  None whatsoever.

COSBY:  Not at all?  What...

SKEETERS:  Not at all.

COSBY:  What surprised you about him, when you—when you got to see him and talk to him?

SKEETERS:  Well, when I interviewed him, I found out it was all about money.  He wanted money before he‘d make a statement.  He told me that he and his attorney talked, and before he could make a statement, they wanted a book right, the movie right and they wanted money.

COSBY:  Oh, gross!  Jamie, thank you very much.  Good job there.  And Dave, thank you for being with us and listening to I know what was probably very tough to hear.  Thank you very much.

And joining us right now is defense attorney Jeralyn Merritt.  Jeralyn, how smart is this guy?  You know, he‘s talking to Jamie, knows Jamie has this agreement that he‘s always going to be recording him.  Is this the smartest thing to do, to be talking?

JERALYN MERRITT, DEFENSE ATTORNEY:  No, it‘s not the smartest thing to do, but I think he‘s an angry young man.  I think he knows that they don‘t have a case on him, you know, for murder...

COSBY:  Is he an innocent young man, Jeralyn, in your mind?

MERRITT:  You know, I‘m not really sure.  I have not seen any evidence to say that he murdered her or that any of these three young boys murdered her.

COSBY:  Jeralyn, what about gang raped her?  What about gang raped her?

MERRITT:  I don‘t know.  You know, that I don‘t know.  But you know, you have—the real issue here is, did they kill her?  And that—the authorities have questioned them up and down for months, and they let them go.  So you have to assume that there was nothing to connect them to a killing.

But I think that this young man is extremely angry, and he feels that he has nothing to lose.  And he‘s angry he was in jail for so long.

COSBY:  All right, Jeralyn, thank you.  And in fact, he even says, I don‘t know where the body is.  I don‘t care.  I want this to get over with.  So you bring up good points.  Jeralyn, thank you very much.

COSBY:  And everybody, stick with us.  We are closely watching what could be a big break in the case of that missing Virginia college student Taylor Behl, who vanished a month ago.

But that‘s not all we have tonight.  We have a big show.  Take a look.

Still ahead, my exclusive prison interview with Pam Smart.  Her love affair with a 16-year-old led to her husband‘s murder and a life sentence.  Now find out if she still proclaims her innocence.




COSBY:  But find out why not everyone in the case is behind bars.

And a crash course in being a celebrity.  Lindsay Lohan has another run-in with the paparazzi.  Are they to blame for her crack-up?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  They know everywhere you go and everything you do, and it‘s kind of (INAUDIBLE)


COSBY:  And Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes are just asking for it.  You can bet your bottom dollar the paparazzi is going to go crazy over their big news.  It‘s ahead LIVE AND DIRECT.



RICHARD STARR, EYEWITNESS TO CRASH:  She was probably doing 50 or 60 miles an hour when she passed me.  And then about a minute later, the phone rings, and it‘s my wife.  And she was walking down the street here and she said, I just saw an accident, and it‘s Lindsay Lohan in the car.


COSBY:  Another car crash for Lindsay Lohan.  The teen actress says that the paparazzi is to blame, even though police say the photographers now say they did not cause the accident and the police do not believe they are connected.

“Access Hollywood‘s” Tony Potts joins us now live.  Tony, what do you know about this crash?  Is the paparazzi to blame?

TONY POTTS, “ACCESS HOLLYWOOD”:  Well, it appears that Raymundo Ortega (ph), the man that we interviewed exclusively on “Access Hollywood,” tells us that he didn‘t see any paparazzi behind her at all, anybody in a car after the crash happened.  What he does say is he says that it did seem like she was going, he says, 75 miles an hour.  I can tell you, I was down there this morning, and the people we talked to on our show, the eyewitnesses that I talked to, as well, all say that she was going at an excessive speed.  Speed down there is about 25 miles an hour.

However, the police say at this hour that she was going 30 miles an hour.  So it‘s all hard to figure out who‘s right here.  But if the police say it was only 30 miles an hour, that may be it.  Remember, though, she‘s driving a 12-cylinder superhorse power Mercedes Benz.  It‘s not, you know, (INAUDIBLE) fully loaded, the little lovebug.  This thing is very powerful.  As you can see by the reaction there of what happened, she hit at a pretty good rate of speed.

Also, Raymundo Ortega will also tell you—and for your West Coast viewers, tonight on our show—that she never came over to him at all.  When it happened, he was kind of dizzy, got out of his van and went to the sidewalk.  People helped him there.  She ran out with her friend, he says, went to an antique store.  We talked to the guy in the antique store this morning, my colleague, Shawn Robinson (ph), said, and this guy told Shawn Robinson at the Hideaway House Antiques (ph), that she came in and sat down on an 1880 chair, over 125 years old, worth $5,200, and dripped blood on the chair.  She was very upset.  She was bleeding.  And she was saying, Oh, my God.  Oh, my God.  I can‘t believe it happened.

So I think in the next couple of days—the one thing here I think everyone should know is that Raymundo works across the street at the Newsroom Cafe (ph) as a bus boy.  He has six kids, no car to take him to work anymore, and he doesn‘t know how he‘s going to support these six kids.  The cops do say that he may have be at fault because he was the one pulling the U-turn, which you really shouldn‘t do on that street.

I should tell you, Rita, though, that I was there for five hours this morning.  I saw no less than 15 U-turns on that street.  So as you can see, it‘s quite a collision there to have a van vault and over hit another van, Rita.

COSBY:  This is quite—and this Lindsay Lohan‘s, what, second accident or so.  Tony, thank you very much.  Great reporting.  We appreciate it.

So is the paparazzi out of control?  Joining us now is David Hans Schmidt.  He‘s a broker for paparazzi photos.  And also with us is Jeanne Wolf.  She‘s the host of “Jeanne Wolf‘s Hollywood.”

David, can you hear me?  Let me start with you, if I could.  What is the deal with Lindsay Lohan and paparazzi?  It seems like they go hand in hand.

DAVID HANS SCHMIDT, CELEBRITY PHOTO BROKER:  Well, seemingly, they have here over this last year, Rita, because, you know, once, twice, thrice now.  And you know, there‘s been a pattern of this—you know, I mean, this girl gets hit by the paparazzi more than the average person does a bolt of lightning.  This is just a redundant ridiculousness going on here.

And today, at about 4 -- 3:30 Eastern Standard Time this afternoon, 4:30, about two hours ago, the paparazzi were cleared, just like they were with Lady Diana years ago.  And you know, again, my only point is the same point I‘ve made before in these interviews, is that, you know, Lindsay Lohan, she needs the paparazzi more than she needs anything else to bolster her career.  And to be disingenuous like she is and to say—I mean, all the other stars, Robert Redford and all the rest of them, that have any A-list weight here, don‘t find their path (ph), and that‘s because they‘re not looking for it, like Lindsay Lohan is.  And here to blame the paparazzi, like she did today, erroneously—she owes the paparazzi an abject letter of apology.

COSBY:  Oh, let me bring in Jeanne.  Jeanne, do the stars need paparazzi, you know, more than they‘ll ever admit?

JEANNE WOLF, HOST, “JEANNE WOLF‘S HOLLYWOOD”:  Well, it is sort of a combined relationship there.  The stars need the fame, and the paparazzi need the money they make from the pictures.  But when you‘re at Lindsay Lohan‘s level of fame, you don‘t need to be followed by paparazzi.  And so this is kind of a bad test case.

Now that we know that Lindsay is fine and now that we know that the driver is—his health isn‘t impaired, we have to say this is kind of a silly case.  You‘ve got satellite trucks, helicopters covering a car accident of a young woman on Robertson (ph) Boulevard.  People who have never, ever been to LA know that the Ivy (ph) is a hot spot where celebrities like to lunch.  And they also know that it‘s always surrounded by photographers hoping for a shot.

Lindsay has the right to go wherever she wants, but it doesn‘t seem sensible to me that she‘s shopping on Robertson Boulevard, that she‘s eating lunch at the Ivy, and at the same time saying, Why won‘t they leave me alone?  Lindsay‘s a very talented girl, but I think she‘s young and has made some foolish decisions.

COSBY:  Yes, and as you pointed out, the press seem to follow her everywhere, no matter what she does.  You know, David, here she is shopping, as Jeanne‘s talking about.  How much would a picture just—a picture of Lindsay Lohan shopping go for?  Is there even a pricetag on something like that?

SCHMIDT:  Well, yes, there‘s a standard rate on stuff like that.  It depends...

COSBY:  What would it go for?

SCHMIDT:  On a situation like—we don‘t like to divulge our trade secrets, thank you.  But it would be a significant purchase.  But there‘s much—an a much higher realm in this of purchase power that would involve anything that‘s even more scandalous or anything that‘s lascivious or what have you.

COSBY:  Well, let‘s talk about (INAUDIBLE), like, you know, Katie Holmes and Tom Cruise.

SCHMIDT:  Right.

COSBY:  There‘s a rumor that she‘s pregnant.  Someone who gets the first picture of her pregnancy, would that be a big coup?

SCHMIDT:  Well, not just that, but information is as powerful as photographic images.  We do two things in my company.  We sell and broker information, and we see and retail photographic assignment (INAUDIBLE) and video all over the world.  Information is even more powerful than as is a photographic image.  And both are very marketable out there in reference to anything Tom and Katie are doing right now regarding a baby.

COSBY:  Jeanne, you know, this new crackdown was initiated by Governor Schwarzenegger, screen star Schwarzenegger, who was followed by many, many paparazzi in his day.  Is this going to make a difference at all?

WOLF:  Yes, I do think there‘s a warning signal that‘s going out with this new legislation.  I mean, the idea is that they‘re putting paparazzi on notice.  They‘re putting illegal photographers on notice that you can‘t harass people and that there will be severe punishment.  And they‘re also...

COSBY:  Will people listen, Jeanne?

WOLF:  ... saying...

COSBY:  Will people listen?

WOLF:  You know what?  I don‘t think they will listen.  I think that there‘s too many loopholes.  I think they can always prove that they were on public ground.  I think many of them will have profited enough from the photographs that they sell to hire a good lawyer and get out on a technicality.  I think it‘s a real tough proposition all the way around.

COSBY:  All right...

SCHMIDT:  Rita, I assure you...

COSBY:  Yes, David, you got 10 seconds.  Go ahead real quick.

SCHMIDT:  Rita, I assure you, if there‘s ever such a movement that goes to court, the biggest perpetrator of the offensive on that is going to be lawyers bought and paid for not by the paparazzi but by the stars themselves that need the paparazzi.

COSBY:  Interesting (INAUDIBLE)

WOLF:  Equal opportunity offenders!


SCHMIDT:  There you go.

COSBY:  Thanks, you guys.  Good spirit.  I appreciate it.

And coming up still, everybody, ahead, my exclusive interview with Pam Smart, behind bars for life for conspiring with her 16-year-old lover to murder her husband.  How did she get wrapped up with a teenage student in the first place?  And did she really plot out the crime?  Stay with us.


COSBY:  And some breaking news now, an update on the breaking story that we have been following for you.  Tonight, a body has been found outside of Richmond, Virginia.  Sources tell us that the body is presumably that of Taylor Behl, the college student who has been missing for a month.

Reporter Jim Nolan of “The Richmond Times-Dispatch” newspaper is covering the latest developments.  He joins us now live on the phone.  You know, Jim, we‘re hearing that, presumably, it‘s her, that there‘s some indications pointing to that.  When will we know for sure?

JIM NOLAN, “RICHMOND TIMES-DISPATCH”:  Well, Rita, we‘re not presuming that it is the body of Taylor Behl.  All we can tell you is that police say that they found the body after showing a photograph to a form acquaintance of somebody they had interviewed in connection with the case.  That acquaintance led police to this location, and they discovered the body after a search of this very isolated wooded area.

Police are saying it‘s going to take probably up to two to three days before they know for sure whether they have the remains, A, of a woman, and B, of whether that woman is Taylor Behl.

COSBY:  Jim, you‘ve intrigued me, because you said they showed a photograph.  Do we know whose photograph that was?  I don‘t know if you heard earlier in the show, Rod Wheeler said that Ben Fawley had a photograph of this location on his web site.  Do we know whose photograph and which acquaintance saw the picture? 

NOLAN:  Well, we know that Ben Fawley has taken numerous photographs of remote locations.  We have not gotten any definitive proof that the photographs that he took were the photographs that were shown too the acquaintance who identified the location where the body was found. 

We do know that the location is very remote.  It‘s in an isolated part of Virginia, just off the Chesapeake Bay in Matthews County.  It‘s about 70 miles east of Richmond, some kind of place where Taylor Behl might not have been expected to go as a freshman at BCU. 

COSBY:  All right, Jim, thank you very much.  Please keep us posted on this.  We appreciate it. 

And now to a LIVE & DIRECT exclusive.  Several teacher-student sex scandals have gripped the country lately.  But the case—the first one that sparked the nation and the media‘s attention was when Pam Smart was caught having sex with a student. 


COSBY (voice-over):  Pam Smart was a big-city girl who was now living in a small New Hampshire town, married to a good-looking, young insurance agent, enjoying what seemed to be the perfect suburban life, until she had a deadly affair with a 16-year-old student.  She‘s now serving life in prison for plotting the murder of her husband, Gregg Smart. 

At first, the brutal slaying looked like a robbery.  But as more clues were uncovered, it appeared that Gregg Smart was actually murdered over love. 

At the time, Pam Smart was having an affair with high school student Billy Flynn, who admits to shooting Pam‘s husband in the head. 


COSBY:  The case was a media frenzy.  The murder and details of sex, betrayal and infidelity made headlines worldwide. 

When the investigation and trial finally ended, Pam, her teenage lover, and three of his friends were in jail for the murder.  But the boys all struck a deal.  Two are already out on the streets.  The other two will be out in 2018.  But Pam Smart, who was not even at the murder scene, was given the maximum. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I‘m required and do hereby sentence you to the New Hampshire state prison for women for the remainder of your life without the possibility of parole. 


COSBY:  Pam Smart has already served 15 years in prison and is hoping one day she will be set free.  She‘s been transferred to a maximum security prison in New York, which is where I recently caught up with her.  And I asked her how the elicit romance with the 16-year-old student began. 


COSBY:  How did you meet him? 

PAM SMART, IN PRISON FOR LIFE FOR CONSPIRACY TO KILL HUSBAND:  I was in a facilitator for a project that he was also a facilitator.  They had student facilitators and adult facilitators. 

COSBY:  What attracted you to a 16-year-old boy? 

SMART:  I feel like I was attracted probably to the fact that he was just a very nice person.  He seemed like a very gentle person and someone who was—I don‘t know.  He paid a lot of attention to me.  And I wasn‘t feeling too good about myself at that time. 

COSBY:  Did you ever say to yourself, “This is wrong”?

SMART:  I said it all the time. 

COSBY:  “I‘m 21.  He‘s 16.”

SMART:  All the time.  All the time.  I said it over and over to myself.  I said it, um, you know, at least every day, more than once. 

COSBY:  Where did you have your trysts, if you will? 

SMART:  I saw him where I worked, at the building where I worked at, or I want to his house, or—I think he was at my house twice, once or twice. 

COSBY:  And you became physical? 

SMART:  Once, I think—yes, it became physical. 

COSBY:  Bill Flynn testified that you seduced him.

SMART:  Right. 

COSBY:  Is that true? 

SMART:  Did I seduce him?  No, I didn‘t seduce him.  I think that it was just like—our lives just crossed at that moment. 

COSBY:  Let‘s talk about the night of the murder.  You come home, and you see your husband‘s body. 

SMART:  Yes. 

COSBY:  What did you think? 

SMART:  Well, initially, I didn‘t know that he was dead. 

COSBY:  Was there a pool of blood? 

SMART:  No.  And that‘s when my eyes went around and came down, so initially, I thought, obviously the house was robbed, that something happened to the house, when I saw him.  I yelled for his name.  He didn‘t respond.

COSBY:  How did you feel about your husband? 

SMART:  I loved him.  I loved him a lot.  And we were together for years before we actually got married. 

COSBY:  Were you in love? 

SMART:  Yes, I was. 

COSBY:  With the student, the 16-year-old student?

SMART:  No.  No.  I feel like I loved him, but I wasn‘t in love with him, which is a different thing. 

COSBY:  Did you ask the student and his friends to kill your husband? 

SMART:  No, I did not.  I didn‘t ask them to kill my husband.  I didn‘t want them to kill my husband. 

COSBY:  Is it possible, even unintentionally, that he got the wrong message from you, and that was enough to inspire him to kill your husband? 

SMART:  It‘s possible that that happened.  You know, obviously, I‘ve thought about this for years.  I know that what I did say to him when I ended the relationship was that I want to be with my husband.  And it‘s possible that, in his mind, that turned that into—if he wasn‘t here, then that means—then that means I‘d be available to Bill. 

I don‘t know.  There‘s a possibility that that was misconstrued. 

COSBY:  Why do you think the student, Bill Flynn, and the others say you drove them to do this? 

SMART:  Because they don‘t want to be in prison for the rest of their lives. 

COSBY:  So there...


SMART:  That was the deal. 

COSBY:  And you were the fall guy?

SMART:  That was the deal.  That was the deal.  They committed a first-degree cold-blooded murder.  They actually could have faced the death penalty in New Hampshire. 

COSBY:  Do you feel the student, Bill Flynn, is responsible for putting you here? 

SMART:  Yes, he is, absolutely. 

COSBY:  You said that, even though you didn‘t pull the trigger, your bad choices essentially loaded the gun? 

SMART:  Right. 

COSBY:  How so? 

SMART:  Because I feel like that I know that, if I didn‘t have a relationship with Bill Flynn, my husband would still be alive.  And I feel like I knew better.  I knew that it was wrong and I did it anyways. 

And I really feel a sense of responsibility for the fact that he‘s no longer here. 


COSBY:  When we come back, Pam Smart talks about spending the rest of her life behind bars knowing that the person who actually killed her husband could get out.  Stay tuned.


COSBY:  Pam Smart will spend the rest of her life in prison for conspiring to kill her husband, that after an elicit affair with a 16-year-old student in a quiet New England town.  Here now, part two of my exclusive interview with Pam Smart, where she talks about her life in prison and the media. 


COSBY:  The media really went after you.  The tabloids had a field day with you. 

SMART:  I think I was the first reality TV for a lot of shows.  And it was like the fact that it actually preempted the soap opera and became the soap opera for a lot of people was just that it was almost surreal. 

COSBY:  Do you believe you did not get a fair trial because there was such a media circus? 

SMART:  Yes, absolutely.  Absolutely my trial was not fair.  And I had

I didn‘t even—I had no chance. 

COSBY:  How tough has it been here in prison? 

SMART:  Well, it‘s hard.  It‘s not easy.  I was assaulted in 1996 by two other inmates...

COSBY:  Pretty badly.  You had, what, a broken eye socket? 

SMART:  I had to have surgery.  I had a plate inserted in my face. 

And I can‘t feel anything on the left side of my face in here. 

COSBY:  You learned how to survive? 

SMART:  Yes, I learned how to survive. 

COSBY:  Four boys were involved.  Two have gotten out on parole.  Two will get out in 2018, but you have life in prison. 

SMART:  Right. 

COSBY:  Do you feel there‘s a double standard here? 

SMART:  There‘s a great disparity in the sentencing.  And it‘s unfair that they actually admitted to committing this crime and being culpable for it and they‘re getting out of prison and I‘m still in prison for the rest of my life. 

COSBY:  You requested a sentence commutation in July. 

SMART:  Yes. 

COSBY:  It was turned down? 

SMART:  Yes. 

COSBY:  Will you keep fighting? 

SMART:  Yes.  I will always keep fighting, because I know that I‘m in prison for something that I didn‘t do.  And I‘m not going to give up, as long as I‘m alive.  I‘m still going to keep fighting this. 

COSBY:  Do you think that you‘ll get out, that you‘ll get out of here someday? 

SMART:  Well, I believe in God.  And I believe in his ability to make miracles.  And I know that my case is going to need a miracle. 

COSBY:  Can you handle spending the rest of your life in here if that‘s what it comes to? 

SMART:  Wow.  Sometimes I think about that and I think, like, what if I really never get out of here?  Am I going to—I mean, how am I going to do this? 

COSBY:  As you look back at your case, what‘s your biggest regret?

SMART:  Getting involved with Bill Flynn, ever having a relationship with him, ever. 

COSBY:  What can people learn from you? 

SMART:  What people can learn from me—probably, I guess, the biggest lesson that I have is that, when your head is telling you something‘s wrong, that your head is right.  Your head is usually right.

And instinctively, intuitively we know—we are all our best moral compass.  If I could ever teach anybody everything, it would be the dangers of not listening to your head when your head and your heart come in conflict. 

COSBY:  And you‘re paying a dear price for doing the opposite.


SMART:  I‘m paying with my life.  I‘m paying with my life. 


COSBY:  And joining me now are two people who know Pam Smart and her case very well.  Robert Fowler is the brother of one of the four boys involved in the case.  His brother, Raymond Fowler, was the only one, the only one out of four boys whom the prosecution did not put on the stand.  He spent 12 years in prison and was released on parole in 2003. 

We also have with us Dr. Eleanor Pam.  She‘s an expert on women and violence, as well as a adviser and also family spokesperson for Pam Smart‘s family. 

Robert, let me start with you, because did your brother, Ray, ever say to you that Pam Smart told him or any of the other boys to kill her husband? 

ROBERT FOWLER, RAYMOND FOWLER‘S BROTHER:  No.  Actually, Raymond never talked about things about Pam, about any kinds of details, because I think his whole focus was really on what the boys did and what he heard the night of the murder and stuff in the car on the way home. 

COSBY:  But, Robert, did he believe that they were guided by Pam or not? 

FOWLER:  He didn‘t have much contact with Pam.  And I don‘t think that he saw the big picture between Pam and Bill.  He kind of saw them together and knew they were kind of seeing each other, but I don‘t think that that kind of connected with Bill and Pam and the murder.  I don‘t think that‘s what he was thinking. 

COSBY:  Does he have any evidence that Pam Smart directed it? 

FOWLER:  No.  He would not—nothing he testified to, to say that she actually, you know, coerced Bill and portrayed Bill in a way to make him do this. 

COSBY:  Why didn‘t the prosecution put your brother on the stand?  Why do you think? 

FOWLER:  Well, we feel that the state effectively silenced the witness in this case because the jury never heard his testimony or his side of the story, which would be directed more towards what the boys did, and what he saw, and what the actions that they had.  And we feel that the state didn‘t want him to go in there and portray the boys in a different light that what he saw. 

COSBY:  That‘s interesting. 

Dr. Pam, let me go to you.  But first, I want to show a clip.  This is of teenager Cecilia Pierce, who was sort of put on by the cops to tape secretly—tape Pam.  And this is the audio conversation that they had. 


COSBY:  Let me play a little clip of it. 


CECILIA PIERCE, SMART‘S INTERN:  ...if Raymond hadn‘t run his frigging mouth off, this would have been the perfect murder.  Because they set everything up to look like a burglary, just like you said.

SMART:  No (EXPLETIVE DELETED), so it‘s not my fault.

PIERCE:  Well, first of all, you didn‘t offer to pay him, right?


PIERCE:  So he‘s not going to say you offered to pay him.  He‘s going to say you knew about it before it happened, which is the truth.

SMART:  Right.  Well, so then I‘ll have to say, “No, I didn‘t.”


COSBY:  Now, coming out of that, we asked the prosecution about this. 

First of all, tell me, what‘s your reaction?  Is this tape genuine?

PAM:  There‘s no way to know if it‘s genuine.  It‘s never been authenticated.  There was, in fact, a report that was issued by a former Secret Service man in 1994 in which he examined the tapes. 

And he said that there were so many suspicious anomalies in the tapes that it cast serious doubt on their authenticity.  There were starts and stops.  There were gaps.  And at least three or four machines were used, tape recording machines. 

COSBY:  Now, this was done, what?  He did it in ‘94.  Why are you bringing up it now? 

PAM:  We‘re bringing it up now because we‘re talking about it now.  We have decided finally that Pam has spent so much time in prison unfairly.  She did not have anything to do with this crime, and we decided to not rehabilitate Pam—there‘s nothing wrong with Pam—but to rehabilitate finally her reputation. 

It‘s not anything that—we‘ve had possession of it.  And now we‘re investigating it, and trying to make this an issue to look at more in-depth. 

COSBY:  And the prosecution did know.  I want to show two comments.  This is from the prosecutor at the time, the New Hampshire assistant district attorney, or assistant attorney general. 

He said, quote, when we asked him about the tape, “This is the first I‘ve heard of it.  If someone had that information, why would they have waited so long?” 

We also asked him, “Is it unfair?”  You know, because here she‘s spending all of these time in prison, life in prison.  She wasn‘t even there at the crime scene.  And this was his comment in response. 

He said, “He”—and he‘s referring to Billy Flynn.  This is, of course, her lover—“was remorseful and got 40 years to life.  That‘s what happens when you‘re remorseful.”

Do you feel the sentence is inappropriate for her? 

PAM:  Absolutely.  How can Pam Smart be remorseful when she didn‘t commit the crime?  And that‘s the problem for all people who are innocent, that can‘t express or show remorse if they‘ve not done the thing in the first place. 

So she‘s stuck.  If she had lied and expressed remorse that she had no reason to feel, then they would have treated her just as well as they treated the boys, who were not only guilty, but who were pretending to express remorse. 

COSBY:  Well, I think this definitely brings up a lot of questions, especially of the fact that these guys are getting out.  Two have already gotten out.  Two will get out in a few years, and yet she hasn‘t been there at the night of the crime.  Interesting.

PAM:  There‘s something really wrong.  What‘s wrong with this picture?  Here‘s a woman who has consistently said, “I did not do this.  I am innocent.  I am innocent.  I am innocent.”  And she gets life without the possibility of parole. 

And here are three boys who said, “Yes, I did it.  Yes, we planned to do it.  Yes, we wanted to do it.”  And they get reduced sentences, and they can reclaim their lives. 

COSBY:  All right, thank you very much.  Interesting case.  Eleanor, thank you. 

And also, Robert, thank you. 

We‘ll be right back, everybody.


COSBY:  Now to the mysterious death of an American woman in Italy.  In 1998, Toni Dykstra headed overseas to bring home her daughter.  The little girl was taken by her father and Toni wanted her back.

While in Rome, Toni suddenly died.  Her boyfriend, claiming that it was act of self-defense, that she fell on an axe.  Carlo Ventre could soon find out whether he is being charged with Toni‘s murder.

And live with me on the phone tonight is Milton Dykstra.  He is Toni Dykstra‘s father.  And also with us is Betty Dykstra, Toni‘s stepmom.  And also, with me here live in the studio is Gloria Allred.  She‘s the attorney for the Dykstra family. 

Milton, let me start with you, Milton.  What kind of a woman was Toni? 

MILTON DYKSTRA, TONI DYKSTRA‘S FATHER:  Oh, Toni was a very gracious, vivacious young lady.  She was very happy, very happy-go-lucky, loved life.  And she was always smiling, always happy.  And she was a very good mother. 

COSBY:  Betty, why do you believe she died?  And who do you think is responsible? 

BETTY DYKSTRA, TONI DYKSTRA‘S STEPMOM:  I believe she died because Carlo Ventre killed her.  And I think Carlo Ventre knows he‘s responsible.  I think she died because she wouldn‘t hand her baby over to him when he insisted that she do so. 

Toni was a good mother.  And because of this death, we have three motherless children in our family. 

COSBY:  Betty, had Carlo talked to people about harming Toni before this? 

B. DYKSTRA:  He had told Toni several times that, if he could get her to Italy, he would kill her, and he would get away with it.  He also told her that he would use an axe and he would cut her up in little pieces. 

COSBY:  And now, Gloria, he‘s claiming that, what, she came after him and then, in self-defense somehow, he fought her off, and she landed on the axe?  Is that the gist of it? 

GLORIA ALLRED, ATTORNEY:  It sounds as though that may very well be the gist of it.  And let me point out, too, Rita, that Carlo has been convicted of kidnapping their little girl.  He‘s been convicted of international parental kidnapping. 

In addition to that, while he was in custody of the Immigration and Naturalization Service, now known as the ICE, there is evidence found by a judge that he solicited the murder of Milt and Betty Dykstra while he was in custody.  And the deportation judge used that as one of her reasons that she cited as to why she was deporting him back to Italy. 

COSBY:  Now, what about this case?  Because you just came back from Italy a few hours ago. 

ALLRED:  Yes, I did. 

COSBY:  Where does this stand with him in this case? 

ALLRED:  It‘s been seven years since Toni died.  And by the way, that was after she had been saying in numerous court declarations that Carlo was threatening to kill her. 


ALLRED:  This was during the custody battle.

COSBY:  Are they sort of maybe charging him with this? 

ALLRED:  Well, they were supposed to begin a preliminary hearing, the first hearing after seven years, to determine whether or not he is guilty of what they call voluntary murder, first-degree murder.  But instead, it was put over until November 7th, at which time the hearing is supposed to take place.  And I‘ll be going back to Rome to make sure that there is justice in this case. 

COSBY:  Does it look like it‘s moving forward? 

ALLRED:  It looks as though it‘s moving forward finally.  But, of course, we need to be sure he‘s accountable. 

COSBY:  And, Betty, real quick, where is the little girl now? 

B. DYKSTRA:  Well, she isn‘t living with us.  We lost the custody of her.  And she‘s in Las Vegas with the brother of her father. 

ALLRED:  But the good news is that Carlo, who fought the custody battle, does not have custody of his little girl.  Now he‘s facing a murder charge. 

COSBY:  Keep us posted.  An interesting case.  Gloria, thank you. 

It‘s nice to see you in person. 

ALLRED:  Thank you.  You, too, Rita.  Thank you.


COSBY:  And both of you, the Dykstras, good luck to you.  And we‘ll stay posted on this.  Thank you very much. 

And still ahead, everybody, right now, police in Virginia are on the scene of a gruesome discovery, a body found just a few hours ago just miles from where a college student vanished.   Are the two connected?  Stay tuned.


COSBY:  And breaking details tonight.  Police in Virginia searching for a missing college student have just found a body just about an hour‘s drive from where Taylor Behl vanished. 

Police say that they do not know if the body is that of Taylor Behl, but people close to the case tell us it is presumed to be the missing 17-year-old woman, because Taylor had been known to visit the site.  We will keep you posted on any breaking developments on this case, especially as they warrant, and especially if the confirmation, if indeed that happens, comes in.

And that does it for me here on LIVE & DIRECT.  I‘m Rita Cosby. 

Coming up right now, my pal Joe Scarborough live in Pensacola—Joe?

JOE SCARBOROUGH, MSNBC HOST:  Hey, thanks so much, Rita.  Such a sad story.  All parents, like myself, just shutter when you hear that type of sad, sad breaking news. 


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