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'The Situation with Tucker Carlson' for Oct. 21st

Read the transcript to the Friday show

Guests: Bill Press, Robert Wuhl, Kenny Kingston, Erica Enders, Max Kellerman

TUCKER CARLSON, HOST:  Thanks to you at home for sticking with THE SITUATION on a Friday night.  We appreciate it.  It will be worth it, we promise.

Tonight from Los Angeles, we‘ll bring you the very latest on the CIA leak investigation now enveloping the White House.  We‘ll discuss second-term presidential scandals with actor and comedian Robert Wuhl.  And we‘ll meet a woman who has taken the drag racing world by storm. 

But first, for the latest on the turmoil at the White House, we go to MSNBC‘s chief Washington correspondent Norah O‘Donnell—Norah?


CARLSON:  I‘m great.  What is—you know, from afar, it‘s hard to tell exactly how seriously the White House is taking all of this, the Fitzgerald investigation.  How seriously are they taking it?  What do they think?

O‘DONNELL:  Well, the president has said that he just think that there is a lot of background noise out there, but privately, inside the West Wing, people are very nervous, nervous that they may lose the two most powerful men in the White House besides the president and vice president, and that‘s Karl Rove and the vice president‘s chief of staff, Scooter Libby. 

What we learned today, of course, was that what special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald may be focusing on is a possible cover-up, that is that Rove and Libby both tried to conceal their actions and possibly misled prosecutors throughout this two-year investigation. 

This is noteworthy, because the key question in all of this has been, have Rove and Libby been truthful with prosecutors about their meetings and discussions with reporters about Valerie Plame, who, of course, is the outed CIA operative? 

And we know, of course, that Rove and both Libby contend that they heard about Plame‘s identity from reporters.  Some reporters have disputed that. 

CARLSON:  Norah, we have learned that the alleged crimes for which they may be indicted, these two and possibly others, took place after the investigation started, which is to say they‘re not directly related to the leak itself, or they‘re not leak itself.

Has the White House begun to go on the offensive at all?  It seems to me they have a little complaint here.  Are they voicing it to you, to anyone on background?  Are they starting to go after Fitzgerald, as the Clinton administration used to do against Ken Starr pretty effectively? 

O‘DONNELL:  That‘s an excellent question, and they have not gone after special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald...


O‘DONNELL:  ... who many people call—well, they call him apolitical.  But I think what we hear developing from some Republicans outside the White House is that they are beginning to develop a P.R.  strategy, if you will, in order to begin to rebut these charges, if anyone inside the White House or that served in the White House is indicted. 

So that strategy is developing.  Obviously, they have to keep it pretty quiet.  They‘re concerned about doing that so early, you know, even before any indictment is announced. 

And there‘s also some discussion about who would replace Rove and Libby, if, in fact, they have to leave the White House in order to defend themselves against these charges.  I think that P.R. strategy is going to become very clear next week, if and when Fitzgerald hands down these indictments. 

CARLSON:  Well, we‘ve got less than a week to go before this grand jury is dissolved, and so, if he‘s going to indict, he‘s likely to do it within the next six days. 

O‘DONNELL:  Right.

CARLSON:  So it seems a little late to be getting your P.R. out there.  Is it your sense that the White House is maybe a little paralyzed by the absence of Karl Rove, who I know hasn‘t been quite as involved as he normally is? 

O‘DONNELL:  It may be the case that the White House is paralyzed, and that‘s what some Republicans suggest have been showing up, why there was this sluggish response to Hurricane Katrina, why there has been this abysmal roll-out in the nomination of Harriet Miers for the Supreme Court, which has been roundly criticized as just being poor politics, if you will. 

So there is some suggestion about that.  But in terms of fighting back, it‘s just not the right time to do it with Fitzgerald, who many people call the toughest prosecutor in America. 

And you‘re right.  He‘s not going after what looks like the initial charge, which is, who disclosed the covert identity of Valerie Plame?  It looks like now there is a focus on a potential cover-up. 

Did members of White House lie about how they treated Wilson, their meetings with reporters, et cetera?  And were they out to get Wilson because he had raised questions about the president‘s rationale for the Iraq war? 

CARLSON:  Oh, it‘s really—it‘s hard to overstate how big this story could potentially become over the next week.  Norah O‘Donnell I know will be there covering it for us. 

O‘DONNELL:  Absolutely. 

CARLSON:  Thanks, Norah.  We‘ll talk to you again.

O‘DONNELL:  You‘re welcome.

CARLSON:  Well, as the Karl Rove indictment situation continues to develop, there‘s more bad news today for Harriet Miers.  Here to gleefully talk discuss both of these topics, the author of the new book, “How the Republicans Stole Christmas,” my old pal Bill Press. 

Welcome, Bill. 

BILL PRESS, AUTHOR, “HOW THE REPUBLICANS STOLE CHRISTMAS”:  Hey, Tucker, we got it backwards.  You‘re supposed to be on the East Coast, and I‘m supposed to be in California. 

CARLSON:  No, I think we‘ve got it just about right. 

PRESS:  I envy you.

CARLSON:  So, Bill...

PRESS:  Yes.

CARLSON:  ... I‘m happy to be here.  It‘s kind of hard to defend, it seems to me, the fact—I mean, there‘s a lot we don‘t know.  But here is what we do know, that Fitzgerald is likely to indict on charges that are not directly related to the alleged crime he was asked to investigate in the first place, right?

So, you know, perjury, obstruction of justice, conspiracy, these are potential crimes that took place after the investigation began. 

PRESS:  Tucker...

CARLSON:  Does that bother you at all? 

PRESS:  No, look, here‘s the—it‘s always that way.  Watergate, they didn‘t get them on the burglary, they got them on the cover-up.  Clinton, what he did with Monica was not a crime.  He lied about it under oath when he was giving the deposition. 

CARLSON:  Right.

PRESS:  So if these guys—first of all, Norah and I talked about this yesterday.  There‘s still the possible conspiracy charge, because we know that Rove and Libby were talking to each other before her identity became public. 

But if—and this is a big if—if they lied to the grand jury, if they tried to obstruct justice, if they tried to cover-up, that‘s a crime.  And these guys—Tucker, you and I have seen this so often.  The cover-up is always worse than the crime, and it could be in this case. 

CARLSON:  Well, it definitely sounds like it‘s the cover-up that, if people were indicted, will be the cause of those indictment.  But it does kind of raise the question, why was this special counsel given the power to investigate this in the first place, if the original charge was not worthy of prosecution? 

I think we‘ve lost track of how difficult it is to prosecute someone for leaking the name of Valerie Plame.  We don‘t know if she was covert, for one thing.  We still have no idea...

PRESS:  But, remember...

CARLSON:  ... if she met the definition of a covert agent.  We don‘t...

PRESS:  Again...

CARLSON:  ... know that Karl Rove or Scooter Libby or anyone else knew that she was covert.  In other words, they were never going to be indicted for that. 

PRESS:  No, not necessarily.  Again, remember how it started, Tucker.  It started because the CIA believed that a crime may have been committed in leaking her identity. 

They asked John Ashcroft, the Bush Justice Department, to appoint a special counsel.  Ashcroft recused himself.  He appointed a special counsel.  They thought there was enough evidence to look into it. 

And again, it‘s like Ken Starr.  He goes after Watergate and he ends up somewhere else, with Clinton lying about this, you know, sex act with Monica.  This may be the same thing.  He goes after espionage, doesn‘t find it, but then he finds out that these guys came in and lied to the grand jury.  That‘s a crime, you know?

CARLSON:  But as you point out—it‘s potentially a crime at this point. 

PRESS:  Right.

CARLSON:  But as you point out, this always—correctly, this always happens.  This always happens. 

PRESS:  Absolutely.

CARLSON:  Special prosecutors, special counsels always expand what they‘re looking at, and it‘s always bad.  Why did the White House give this guy the authority to do this?  Why didn‘t they just hang tough and say, “No, the Justice Department, a regular prosecutor, is going to look into this, and we‘re not going to give this guy all this autonomy”?  Why didn‘t they do that?

PRESS:  Because, Tucker, politicians, even smart politicians, as we

learned, always do stupid things.  If, in fact, Libby and Rove felt that

the way to get to Joe Wilson was to put his wife‘s name out there and talk

to reporters, or if they felt they could play games with the grand jury—

and again, you know, this is all—we don‘t know for a fact that they did

it was just downright dumb, stupid, arrogance of power.  And that‘s what always trips up the politicians of both parties, Tucker.  We‘ve seen it. 

CARLSON:  Well, if they‘re lying to the grand jury, Scooter Libby, who was a very well-known and very highly recorded lawyer in private practice before he came to the vice president‘s office...

PRESS:  Yes.

CARLSON:  ... if he intentionally lied to the grand jury—I doubt he did—that‘s insanity, I agree with you.  I don‘t believe he did. 

Now, Harriet Miers, given what we‘re learning today—I know, you‘re cackling, and I think fairly so—but we‘re learning today that Republicans on the Judiciary Committee, as well as it reports Democrats, are sending signals to the White House that she‘s going to get a really rough time. 

Does this mean she‘s not going to make it?  Does it make the White House is going to pull her nomination before she gets there?  What‘s going to happen? 

PRESS:  You know, Tucker, first of all, I got to say, I have never seen anything bungled as badly as this woman‘s nomination. 

CARLSON:  I agree. 

PRESS:  I think she should sue George Bush for malpractice, you know?  I mean, the way they‘ve handled this—and, you know, she sent the questionnaire up to Capitol Hill.  The Republicans sent it back to her, with basically—it was like a fourth-grade exam, right, “incomplete” stamped at the top of it. 

I‘m starting to feel sorry for her, because I think, when she gets in front of that committee—compare her to John Roberts, Tucker.  John Roberts was smooth.  He knew the law.  He‘d argued all those cases in front of the Supreme Court.  You were dazzled by his intellect and his legal skills. 

She doesn‘t have it, Tucker.  She doesn‘t have the background.  And I think they‘re going to chew her up. 

CARLSON:  I couldn‘t agree more.  And it‘s not only a disaster...

PRESS:  It‘s too bad.

CARLSON:  ... it‘s an ever-escalating disaster.  It‘s snowballing. 

It‘s getting worse every single day. 

Then you hear, in one of questionnaires, or in the questionnaire she sent back to Congress, apparently she got a constitutional law question wrong, a person who is up for the Supreme Court.  I think that this is—and I‘ve said since day one—a really bad idea nominating Harriet Miers. 

But do you think it makes political sense to pull her back now?  Put on your strategist‘s cap.  What would you do?

PRESS:  You know, it‘s awfully hard for this administration.  They‘ve never said it yet.  They‘ve never said, “We made a mistake.”  They‘ve never said something is wrong. 

I think what I would do is I would to talk to Harriet Miers and get her to withdraw her nomination.  That way, the president saves face and she can just say, you know, whatever, you know, “They‘re being too mean to me, I want to spend more”—hey, Tucker, she can give the spin.

You and I are masters at that, right?  She needs to spend more time with her family or whatever, but not to go through the process. 

You know what they‘re down to now?  They‘re asking the Republicans on the Hill on the Judiciary Committee to vote for her in order to save the Bush presidency.  Because everything else is going bad, they‘re saying George Bush can‘t afford to lose this one. 

That is so weak an argument, and it‘s certainly not an argument that‘s worth putting somebody on the Supreme Court for. 

CARLSON:  Right.  That‘s exactly right.  And a bad decision redeems nothing.  Make the right decisions and, in the end, history will judge you well.

Bill Press, a man whose history will judge well, I think, despite your politics.  Thanks.

PRESS:  Hey, Tucker, you‘re a good friend.  Good to be with you, man. 

CARLSON:  Thanks, Bill.

Still to come, second-term scandals, they always happen.  How does the Bush administration‘s crises compare to the Clinton years?  We‘ll ask actor, comedian and historian Robert Wuhl about that next.  He‘s got a new show in the works that teaches history with a twist.

Plus, sexism in sports.  If girls are allowed to play football, why shouldn‘t boys be allowed to play on the girls‘ field hockey?  I mean, despite the kills?  It‘s rough and tumble time on THE SITUATION, next.



CARLSON:  Welcome back.

President Bush is having a pretty tough year, Iraq, Katrina, the CIA leak investigation.  At the moment, it looks hopeless for the White House.  But maybe the rest of us could use a little historical perspective.

My next guest is working on an excellent new HBO pilot that debunks many of the myths of U.S. history.  Here to give us his own version of the past, actor, comedian, writer, and director, and historian, Robert Wuhl, recognized by many as the fast-talking sports agent on the HBO comedy “Arliss.”

Robert Wuhl, thanks. 

ROBERT WUHL, ACTOR/COMEDIAN/DIRECTOR:  I‘m not a historian by any stretch of the imagination. 

CARLSON:  Well, you are by my definition, anyway. 

You know a ton about history, and—you know, I‘m all for self-identification.  So I‘m now hereby crowning you a historian. 


CARLSON:  But first, just to some very sort of topical California news.  I can‘t resist asking you about this. 

Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger is turning a cold shoulder to President Bush today.  President Bush is in California—in Los Angeles, actually, right now, going up to the Reagan Library in Simi Valley later.  And the governor refuses to meet with him because he‘s got these referenda on the ballot and he doesn‘t want to be seen as a Republican. 

But he‘s a Republican.  Do you think California voters are going to somehow forget that he‘s a Republican, if he doesn‘t meet with Bush?

WUHL:  No, but do you think that any Republican is going to change their vote because he‘s not at that dinner? 

CARLSON:  Looking at it the other way, actually that‘s a very smart point. 


WUHL:  You know, so he‘s got that base.  OK, right now, it‘s not a good time to be with the guy for him, so he‘ll go somewhere else to get the coins.  “I‘m not losing any of those votes.” 

CARLSON:  Actor, comedian, historian, and now political strategist.  I think you‘re absolutely—that‘s good, though.  You‘re totally right. 

WUHL:  That‘s what people don‘t understand, is like when they go through this minutiae.  Do you really think anybody is changing their vote from the other side because of this?  No.

CARLSON:  Sort of like when the Bush administration makes its half-hearted attempts to appeal to liberals, it‘s—you think, what liberal is going to vote for Bush?

WUHL:  Absolutely.

CARLSON:  Not a one.

WUHL:  Absolutely.

CARLSON:  They‘d rather die. 

WUHL:  Right, but it makes the other side say, “Look, he appealed to them.  They rejected it.” 


WUHL:  It‘s like, no, well they‘re not going to lose their base.

CARLSON:  So, Harriet Miers, she‘s coming under a lot of fire, including from me, for what it‘s worth, as not qualified, frankly, to sit on the Supreme Court.  But give us some historical perspective.  I mean, is she the least qualified person ever put up for an appointed office in the federal government? 

WUHL:  Again, again, you know, it‘s funny because I—Bill Maher said a wonderful thing about this, doesn‘t he ever—he should go out and Bush should find more people to know, you know?  It‘s, like, he‘s got to know more people...

CARLSON:  Got to expand his personal circle a little bit? 

WUHL:  Yes, exactly.  I thought it was wonderful.  But I was looking up, just before we came here, that I think there‘s 97 associate justices and 16 chief justices. 

Do we really think, in all those people, that there wasn‘t some incompetent cronyism in all the time?  And we survived it, you know?  It‘s like—and people are, you know—under Washington, George Washington had three chief justices within, like, two years. 

John Rutledge was there for four months and resigns.  So he‘s under—you know, the Supreme Court justice is a political system, you know?  She probably isn‘t qualified, but that never stopped anybody from getting a job in government. 

CARLSON:  That‘s true.  And constitutionally you don‘t even have to be a lawyer to sit on the Supreme Court. 

WUHL:  No, no.  Except, when you do get a big job like that, if you‘re going to take a, you know, country into battle, you‘d like to have someone have some military experience. 

CARLSON:  Yes, it‘s kind of good to know sort of what you‘re talking about.  Is this all the scandals, or the appearance of scandal now adhering to the White House, it seems to me—I was thinking about this before even the election.

Every second term brings this on.  I mean, Nixon had Watergate famously, Reagan, Iran-Contra, Clinton, of course, you know, a whole bunch of things, including Monica Lewinsky.

WUHL:  Right.

CARLSON:  Can you think of a president who‘s had a successful second term unmarred by this or is it totally inevitable?  And if it‘s inevitable, how come?

WUHL:  Oh, that‘s a great question.  That‘s a great—well, Roosevelt‘s different because he had a second term, a third term and a fourth term, so... 

CARLSON:  That‘s true. 

WUHL:  You know, so...

CARLSON:  In fact, Teddy Roosevelt‘s second term, really his first full term, but really his second term. 

WUHL:  Right, it‘s hard—well, you‘ve got to figure, in eight years, you‘re going to dig something up that happened five years ago. 


WUHL:  You have to remember that, too.  And most of the time it happens—of something that happened probably during the first term that they dig up sometime in the middle of the second term. 

CARLSON:  Right.

WUHL:  So I mean, let‘s see.  Governor Schwarzenegger right now is in his first term.  And if he goes a second term, you know, that clock‘s ticking with some girl somewhere. 


You know, that clock‘s ticking somewhere, you know?  That story is waiting to be...

CARLSON:  I agree.  I mean, he made his point.  He was elected, you know, from Hollywood to be the governor, that‘s right.

WUHL:  He was amazing, the most amazing.  You get 14 women who come forward and say, “He fondled me, he touched me, he groped me.”  And he goes, “It is true.  Let‘s move on.” 

CARLSON:  And people did. 


CARLSON:  Actually, that was a great lesson in scandal management.  I was in the state the day the “L.A. Times” printed that story, and I just thought, “It‘s over for him.”  And he looked straight in the camera. 

WUHL:  No, no. 

CARLSON:  Yes, I know, well, you get caught up when you‘re in the news business.  You get caught up in the moment. 

OK, so based on all the life experience knowledge you have, and based on historical models, OK, going back a century or two, based on all of that data, compute it in your head and tell me, who is going to win the World Series this year? 

WUHL:  Oh, well, you‘re talking to the wrong guy, because I went to school at the University of Houston.  I sold beer in the Astrodome.  So I‘m actually going down there.  And I have some great college friends and everything.  So I am definitely rooting—I don‘t know who‘s going to win, of course, but I‘m rooting for the Astros, big time. 

CARLSON:  But can you separate your heart from this story far enough to give us, sort of—I mean, I‘m saying this with a compulsive gambler who‘s watching right now.


WUHL:  OK, I can separate my heart so I can give you a prediction that I know nothing about. 


WUHL:  So, well, I mean, I think it‘s going to be a pretty good series.  No team is a strong enough offense to really blow the other team away.  I mean, starting pitcher and closer usually wins the playoffs.  Both teams have really good starting pitching.  The closer is probably better—the bullpen‘s probably better on Houston.  The offense is better, I would say, on Chicago.

Defense is both—they‘re both really good.  Something to consider is that the Chicago White Sox have been an excellent, excellent road team.  I mean, they, you know, went into Cleveland last three games of the year, swept all three.  Went into Boston for the playoffs, clinched there.  Took all three in Anaheim and had the best road record.

Now, to win the world championship, you must win on the road. 

CARLSON:  So you just said a minute ago, “I know nothing about this subject.”  So this is..



WUHL:  No, I know nothing about—I know something about the subject. 

My predication is totally—you don‘t want my prediction.

CARLSON:  I think the analysis you just gave screams Houston, and I totally agree with you. 

WUHL:  Your cousin is Lance Berkman? 

CARLSON:  No, he‘s married to my cousin. 

WUHL:  Oh, he‘s married to your cousin.

CARLSON:  Yes, and a good man.

WUHL:  Hey, he‘s a Houston guy. 

CARLSON:  Robert Wuhl, thank you. 

WUHL:  Thank you, Tucker.

CARLSON:  And the pilot for HBO, “Assume the Position”? 

WUHL:  Yes, “Assume the Position.” 

CARLSON:  With Mr. Wuhl.

WUHL:  Yes.

CARLSON:  Worth watching.  Thanks. 

WUHL:  Thank you very much. 

CARLSON:  Up next, a company‘s CEO gets quite a charge from the ladies at a New York City strip club, $241,000.  Was he scammed or just plain stupid, or both?  THE SITUATION mounts the stage and grabs the pole, next.


CARLSON:  Welcome back. 

When it comes to debate, one man stands head and shoulders about the rest, the Ali of argument, the Rocky of rhetoric, and sometimes the DiMaggio of disinformation.  Our own hall-of-famer, “The Outsider,” live from Vegas.  Put your hands together tonight for ESPN Radio and HBO boxing host Max Kellerman. 

MAX KELLERMAN, ESPN RADIO HOST:  The DiMaggio of disinformation?  Hey, when you say Rocky, are you talking about Marciano, Graziano or Balboa? 

CARLSON:  Balboa, of course.  Come on.

KELLERMAN:  OK, there you go.

CARLSON:  I‘m in Los Angeles, right?  The movie reference required. 

KELLERMAN:  Of course. 

CARLSON:  First up, speaking of sports, the battle of the sexes rages on the hockey field.  In this country, field hockey traditionally is played by girls, but boys are seeking to join several teams.  The predictable result, lawsuits.

Opponent of boys say they‘re bigger and stronger than girls, but their main concern is that boys would cut into girls‘ playing time. 

I just want to say from the outset, I don‘t think boys should be playing girl‘s field hockey.  I don‘t think girls ought to be playing boys‘ football.  Boys definitely shouldn‘t be wearing kilts in public, period, OK?

But here is what I object to about the attempt to keep boys from playing girls field hockey.  Here‘s a quote from the “Women‘s Law Project,” right, some feminist group. 


CARLSON:  In the name of, quote, “gender equity,” boys should be banned.  Gender equity, therefore they should be banned.  That‘s the most Orwellian thing I‘ve ever heard.  Feminists set up this idea that boys and girls are the same, each—you know, girls should have every opportunity to do what boys do, then they should live by their own silly logic and accept this as inevitable. 

KELLERMAN:  Well, if you go by the premise that feminists dictate, you know, school policy...


KELLERMAN:  ... and extracurricular policy, then absolutely, you‘re right.  But you know what?  Thankfully, they don‘t, at least not the extreme feminists.  I think...

CARLSON:  Actually, they kind of do, in my experience, but maybe it‘s changed. 

KELLERMAN:  I think most feminists actually consider themselves humanists, not just as strictly feminists. 

But boys and girls are physically different, obviously.  And it‘s like, what do you want?  You want the girls to come out and say—women to come out and say, “Yes, boys are bigger, stronger, and faster, so, yes, it‘s OK for a girl to try out for a boys‘ team, because she‘s striving for something,” and yet it‘s not OK for a boy to try out for a girls‘ team? 

Look, in the Olympics, you have women‘s track and field.  If you allowed men to compete in women‘s track and field, there would no longer be women‘s track and field.  It just wouldn‘t exist.

CARLSON:  Well, that‘s right.

KELLERMAN:  In golf, Michelle Wie or Annika Sorenstam, they can compete with men because they are better than the women.  And they‘re so good they can compete with men in a higher league.

But you couldn‘t have a man in the LPGA, in the women‘s golf tour, because then the women‘s golf tour would cease to exist.

CARLSON:  OK.  I agree with every single thing you said.  But you are saying that biology demands segregation of the sexes?


CARLSON:  OK, that‘s essentially what you‘re saying.  And I‘m saying, for the sake of fairness, if we‘re going to segregate sports by sex, and you‘re make a pretty good case for doing so, then we should segregate sports by sex.

And if boys can‘t play girls‘ field hockey—again, I‘m for preventing them from doing that, for the kilts, if no other reason—then you ought to prevent girls‘ from playing boys‘ football.

KELLERMAN:  Fundamentally, I agree with you.  However, again, if there was a sort that—for instance, basketball—it favors you to be taller in basketball because the hoop is, you know, high off the ground.

But if a short person can play, if Muggsy Bogues or Spud Webb can play, then—or Nate Robinson on the Knicks now, very excited about that new point guard—can play, then they get to compete with the taller guys, even though it‘s harder for them to do it. 

CARLSON:  OK, so in other words—right, so in other words, people who aren‘t good enough can play, but people who are too good can‘t play?  I think you‘re penalizing excellence.  But whatever... 

KELLERMAN:  In boxing, there are weight divisions.  Weight divisions have to do with weight maximums, not minimums.  So, in other words, heavy weight, there‘s no maximum.  But technically, if you‘re 150 pounds, you can compete at the heavy weight, so long as you can compete.  But a heavy weight cannot compete as a middle weight. 

CARLSON:  That‘s actually not...

KELLERMAN:  He‘s not allowed to, because of...


CARLSON:  That‘s not a bad point.  I‘m not going to concede.  But I will on that point.  You beat me on that one point.

KELLERMAN:  You‘re on my turf, Tucker.  You‘re on boxing.

CARLSON:  I know.



KELLERMAN:  I steered it to boxing somehow.

CARLSON:  All right.  Now, we‘re also on your turf, a strip club story.


A CEO from St. Louis paying a heavy price for a night in a topless bar.  Robert McCormick, who heads a computer networking company called Savvis Communications, spent a night at the fabled Scores strip club in New York getting lap dances. 

He said he ran up a $20,000 bill.  Scores says it was a $241,000 bill.  Now, American Express is suing McCormick for failing to pay his credit card bill.  And I hope they win. 

This character spent the evening—there he is.  That‘s the “New York Daily News,” a picture of Mr. McCormick looking a little surprised.  He spent the evening in what Scores calls the “Super-Elite President‘s Club Suite,” OK? 

He was asked by Scores to call AmEx and verify that he was charging a whole lot of money on his credit card.  This is a long way of saying, this guy knew exactly what he was getting into.  He made a series of bad choices, but he made those choices.  You‘ve got to pay your bills and live with the consequences of what you do, Mr. McCormack.

Tough luck.  No sympathy for you, pal. 

KELLERMAN:  First of all, I‘m shocked, shocked to learn that there are exotic dance clubs.  Secondly...

CARLSON:  He says, from Las Vegas. 

KELLERMAN:  ... why does he need to go to the VIP special super executive suite?  Out there on the floor is fine.  There are plenty—oh, sorry.

Really, this what it comes down to, Tucker.  If you have someone walking through the desert, and you charge them a quarter of a million dollars for a canteen of water, and they have it on them or they‘re able to get a line of credit, they‘re going to do it. 


And it‘s a similar situation to have a guy like this in a club like that.  Whatever you ask of him...

CARLSON:  That is too good.

KELLERMAN:  ... whatever he is in his power to do, he should not be held responsible.

CARLSON:  He‘s a rat hitting the cocaine bar over and over until he dies. 

KELLERMAN:  What do you want from this guy?  Not only that, how can it be that a business can possibly charge someone a quarter of a million dollars a night? 

CARLSON:  I agree.  I agree.  I know.  It‘s embarrassing.  And our friends at Scores ought to be embarrassed for doing that.  But this guy still ought to pay up and stop whining.  And if he has a problem with it, take it up with Scores, not AmEx.  Don‘t cheat them. 

Max Kellerman...

KELLERMAN:  It‘s in dispute, by the way.  It‘s in dispute.  I have to stand up for patrons of strip clubs. 

CARLSON:  ... I just want to say to you, as you leave us and go out into the Las Vegas night tonight, be careful and stay out of the super-elite VIP lounges? 

KELLERMAN:  I will see you on Monday. 

CARLSON:  See you on Monday, Max Kellerman.

Stay tuned.  Still plenty more ahead on THE SITUATION.


ANNOUNCER:  Still to come, celebrity psychic Kenny Kingston tells us what‘s in the stars for Katie and Tom.

KATIE HOLMES, ACTRESS:  We‘re so excited.

ANNOUNCER:  And from Korea, the new exercise craze everyone is buzzing about. 

Plus, what has got one viewer simply mad about Tom‘s mug. 


ANNOUNCER:  Also, this week‘s lucky recipients of the human and nonhuman dubious achievement award.  It‘s all ahead on tonight‘s West Coast edition of THE SITUATION. 

HOLMES:  He‘s amazing.  I am so happy.



CARLSON:  Welcome back.  Erica Enders is the hottest thing in the National Hotrod Association right now.  At 22, she is already one of the most accomplished female drivers in the history of drag racing.  She‘s just finished with a qualifying race in Las Vegas, and she joins us now, fresh off the track.  Erica, thanks a lot for coming on. 

ERICA ENDERS, DRAG CAR RACER:  Thanks for having me. 

CARLSON:  So you are a 22-year-old female drag racer.  That‘s amazing on so many levels.  I was stunned to learn that you began drag racing at 8, is that right?  Can that be right?  Or was it a big wheel?  What is that?  How did you start? 

ENDERS:  Big wheel?  No, I was a junior dragster, actually.  NHRA came out with a junior drag racing week back in 1992, and I was actually in the garage with my dad working on his race car, kind of sitting here hanging out, reading through the “National Dragster,” and there is this big ad in the paper saying that kids are going to be able to race from age 8 to 17.  And I crawled under the race car and said, daddy, look, I don‘t have to wait until I‘m 16, can I do it?  And you know, he was cool enough to let me.  So he sold his race cars, and that was 14 years ago.  I‘m still going at it.

CARLSON:  I know about Danica Patrick; I don‘t know about a lot of other women in auto racing.  Are there a lot? 

ENDERS:  Yes, there is a few.  I mean, there‘s a few out here in drag racing.  There‘s a couple in pro stock, one is a top field dragster right now, and then I‘m in pro stock, I‘m the only girl here in pro stock.  I know Erin Crocker is coming up through NASCAR pretty soon.  You‘re starting to see a little bit more females in motor sports, which is awesome. 

CARLSON:  How do the men treat you? 

ENDERS:  They are pretty cool.  I mean, you know, some of the guys are a little older and stuck in the old times, I guess you could say, and maybe a little chauvinistic, but you know, for the most part, everybody has just been very accepting and offered a lot of advice.  The guys here in pro stock have been really cool to me, and I appreciate that a lot. 

CARLSON:  How do you—tell me about—I‘ve always been interested.  Tell me about your day.  How do you train for drag racing?  What do you do when you get up? 

ENDERS:  When I get up, like on a race weekend, I get up, I have a breakfast and a cup of coffee, would come out to the track, come into the pit.  The guys are getting the car ready, like this morning we threw a new motor and transmission and stuff in the car.  That took a little bit of time.  We go to the scale, because we have a driver/car weight combination that we have to meet -- 2,350 pounds—so we come to the scales.  We‘ve got to make sure we are right on the dot, because if you are under, you get disqualified. 

Then we come back to the pit, warm up, and by that time it‘s time to get suited up and head to the staging lanes for the first pass. 

CARLSON:  Does it take physical endures?  How physically stressful is it, to drive one of these cars?

ENDERS:  It‘s very challenging.  By far the most challenging thing I have ever driven.  And you know, I have been driving a long time, and I have been blessed enough to be able to drive quite a few different cars.  I drove (INAUDIBLE) car for a little bit, and came over here to the pro stock.  And it‘s been—it‘s very demanding on my body.  You know, I work out during the week when I go home, and you know, if it‘s not too late, when we get back to the hotel, which it usually is, to be honest, but I try to get on the treadmill and what not, and keep in shape for that much.  And you know, I will go home on Mondays and I‘ll have to go get a massage, because I‘m a little sore in my shoulders from my HANS device and my seatbelts and stuff.  But I mean, other than that, you know, we are just as capable, I guess. 

CARLSON:  Are you worried about crashing? 

ENDERS:  Well, I have already been there and done that, and I don‘t want to do it again.  But you know, it‘s kind of something that you try to clear out of the back of your mind.  And after I crashed, it did take a little bit of time to get comfortable in the car again.  You know, but that is something—I worked with a sports psychologist on that, just to get out of, you know, just to get it out of my head, so I‘m not thinking about that, so I can focus on doing my job. 

I mean, all drivers know the risks they are taking when you buckle in the car.  I mean, you don‘t know what‘s going to happen, but you know, you just got to have that faith in your crew that they set the car up right and your track (ph) ability,  that it will stay together if you do have an accident, God forbid.  And just roll on with it.

CARLSON:  I bet you are a hero to women in Saudi Arabia.  And around the world, but particular there, where they can‘t even drive at all, to see a woman driving hotrods.  Do you get a lot of mail?  And have you gotten any from Saudis? 

ENDERS:  From Saudis?  I don‘t know.  I know we‘ve gotten a lot from Mexico.  I just received one from France the other day, which was pretty cool, that, like, people are actually watching, you know, outside of the United States.  It kind of is baffling and a little surreal. 

CARLSON:  I‘m impressed.  Erica Enders, thanks a lot for joining us. 

ENDERS:  Thank you very much. 

CARLSON:  Well, you can check out Erica Enders at the NHRA national championship this weekend.  Tune into ESPN 2 on Saturday night at 11:00 p.m. 

Still ahead on THE SITUATION, you might think you‘ve lost your chance to talk to Elvis or Marilyn Monroe when they died decades ago.  Not so, says our next guest.  Legendary psychic Kenny Kingston fills us in on his recent chats with dead celebrities. 


CARLSON:  Welcome back.  A visit to Las Angeles would not be complete without a conversation with the man who has been talking to the dead and famous since before there was a Lindsay Lohan, a man who personally read Marilyn Monroe‘s tea leaves and says he talks to her still.  Please welcome, one of Hollywood‘s living legends, the original psychic to the stars, Kenny Kingston. 

KENNY KINGSTON, PSYCHIC:  How kind you are.  Thank you.

CARLSON:  Thank you for joining us.

KINGSTON:  I better share something with you.  I went to the opening the other afternoon, it was the first time they had an opening in the afternoon of a play called “Romance” at the Mark Taper. 


KINGSTON:  And it is a wonderful play, incidentally.  And I went out for coffee during intermission, and a woman walked up to me and she said, oh, you are copying Tucker.  And I say, copying Tucker, why?  And I just got the call from you that day to do your show.  Am I?  And she says, yes, you are wearing a bow tie just like he does. 

CARLSON:  Well, good for you. 


CARLSON:  Someone has the bravery to do it.  I appreciate that.

Now, one of my producers was telling me that backstage, you had told her that you felt Flip Wilson‘s presence. 

KINGSTON:  Oh, we came in the wrong gate, the driver came in the wrong gate, and we circled around.  Flip is definitely going to visit you again tonight.  But he is with Jay quite often, Jay Leno, quite often.  But he is here. 

CARLSON:  Also taped in this building. 


CARLSON:  Now, what would Flip Wilson, who died I think...

KINGSTON:  Nobody died.  Excuse me, they only have a new birthday. 

That‘s when life begins. 


KINGSTON:  You don‘t think we just live this one life? 

CARLSON:  No, but he‘s a lot more invisible than he used to be, in any case.  What would he be doing here?

KINGSTON:  Visiting.  Finding out if everything is all right.  Because he likes you.  I don‘t know why, but he likes you.  I haven‘t gotten to know you, but I‘m sure, you know, he likes you, and he likes various stars and he visits them, like Jay. 

You know, it took him three appearances, three—three stayings backstage before he ever got on Johnny Carson, and then finally he made it after three tries.  And then of course he became the star of the show later. 

CARLSON:  Yes.  Now, when you are visited by the departed or the reborn or in any case, very difficult to see celebrities and world famous figures.


CARLSON:  Do they tell you things? 

KINGSTON:  Of course.  I want you to come to my home and do a taping sometime. 


KINGSTON:  We will sit around the table—I live in Studio City—got sheets of glass so the stars all can come in, and we have got a table that Marilyn Monroe gave me when she was still Mrs. DiMaggio.  And that‘s where I do all my private readings.  They give me information, like Harry Truman knew I was going to do your show.

CARLSON:  Yes, Harry Truman does.

KINGSTON:  Yes, and I was Harry Truman‘s psychic on three occasions, if you read my book.  And Harry Truman is ticked off.  He is very, very angry at President Bush.  Furious, because President Bush and his people—

President Bush and his people are trying to change the Constitution so we might have three terms for a president. 

CARLSON:  Really? 

KINGSTON:  Secretly, that‘s what they are doing. 

CARLSON:  They are going to try to change the Constitution secretly?

KINGSTON:  Again, again, yes, remember because...

CARLSON:  Well, Truman of course was the one who lost out, you know.  It was while Truman was president that that amendment got there in the first place, no wonder he is mad. 

Is it only famous people that visit you?  Do you ever get former cab drivers or supermarket checkout girls?

KINGSTON:  Everybody.  Of course, of course I do.  I get many, many, many people.  It‘s just that I got the title for doing so many talk shows for so many years, says they want to hear about what Elvis Presley is doing, for example? 

CARLSON:  Yes, what is Elvis doing? 

KINGSTON:  Elvis is studying right now holistic medicine. 

CARLSON:  He‘s not in Canada.  We can lay that to rest.

KINGSTON:  Lay it right to rest.  He‘s studying holistic medicine.  I told this to Priscilla not too long ago...

CARLSON:  Isn‘t it a little too late now?  No offense or anything.

KINGSTON:  No, you know why?  Because when he comes back, he is going to be a holistic doctor, because he abused his body.

CARLSON:  Yes, he did.

KINGSTON:  Yeah.  So that‘s what he is doing, sure. 

And now, about this marriage of, you know, Demi Moore, this is very interesting, about this marriage of Demi Moore and Ashton.  They were soulmates.  Now, they are soulmates now.  But in a past life, Bruce Willis and Demi were soulmates.  So that‘s why he isn‘t angry at the marriage. 

CARLSON:  Oh.  Sort of a cosmic threesome. 

KINGSTON:  Exactly.  And she...

CARLSON:  Boy, that‘s even sicker than I thought. 

KINGSTON:  No, it‘s not, come on.  And she is going to end her days with Bruce—in this life.  

CARLSON:  Wow.  Now, what about Tom and Katie?  Tom Cruise, of course, and his new young—not bride I guess, but the woman who is pregnant with the child he says is his.  Whatever that is.

KINGSTON:  Oh, I see, you practically hit it, but I‘m not going to elucidate on that.  You practically hit it.

CARLSON:  Are they soulmates or what? 

KINGSTON:  Oh, no, no, no.  They perhaps—they perhaps—if they are fortunate, will have the child, will have the child, but they have no life together. 

CARLSON:  Really?

KINGSTON:  No, no life together. 


KINGSTON:  They just don‘t.  You know, some people just think they love each other, but they really don‘t. 

CARLSON:  Because it is not written in the stars or it‘s not...

KINGSTON:  Exactly.  It is not—it‘s not—like, let‘s say right now, in the press right now, coming out two mornings ago was Camilla Parker-Bowles, who I predicted 15 years ago was going to marry Charles.


KINGSTON:  I‘ve got all the data.  You know that.  And she‘s not...

CARLSON:  And you also predicted Michael Jackson would not be convicted, which I thought was impressive.

KINGSTON:  Of course.  And I also said that Mr. Spector, Phil Specter, he absolutely, absolutely, totally and completely, if he took a polygraph would pass it.  Because...

CARLSON:  And Robert Blake, you also predicted—you know, if I ever get in trouble, Kenny Kingston, I‘m going to call you. 

KINGSTON:  Do it. 

CARLSON:  Thank you. 


CARLSON:  For joining us.  I appreciate it.

KINGSTON:  My pleasure, my pleasure.  Anything. 

CARLSON:  When we are back, we will see you again. 

KINGSTON:  Please do. 

CARLSON:  Thanks.

Coming up, Tom DeLay mugs for the police cameras and looks great doing it.  Who does his hair and his makeup?  One caller wants to know that.  We will check THE SITUATION‘s voicemail when we come back. 


CARLSON:  Welcome back.  Time again for our voicemail segment.  You‘ve got our number, and you called.  First up.


PAM:  Hi, Tucker.  This is Pam from Massachusetts, and I have a question concerning Tom DeLay, his recent mugshot.  First of all, I noticed it is a very snappy photo.  He looks very good.  And I‘m wondering did he have hair and makeup done just before his photo shoot?  Is this a new service they‘re offering?  My mugshot didn‘t look that good, and I think I‘m a little better to look at than Tom DeLay, I hope so.  Thanks very much.  Bye.


CARLSON:  Pam, you‘re leaving out the one piece of information our viewers want to know, what were you arrested for?  Call back and tell us.

Yes, I‘m sure he did have hair and makeup.  This was—Tom DeLay has never looked so good than when he was under arrest.  I think he is being railroaded for political reasons, as I‘m sure you have heard me say. 

This is very smart of Tom DeLay, though.  I mean, it looks like, you know, when in doubt, kind of declare victory and seem like you are winning.  It works, to some extent, anyway.

Next up. 


SOPHIE:  Hi, Tucker.  Sophie Roberts (ph) from Dubois, Pennsylvania.  Max convinced me too about the intelligence of a pig.  Actually, Tucker, a big saved my Uncle Charlie‘s life when my uncle suffered a stroke.  The question is, what intelligent animal wouldn‘t cringe and shake if forced to kiss a law professor? 


CARLSON:  Well, I absolutely agree with that.  And I said that last night, that I think it is cruel to force any animal or person to kiss a law professor.  It is just wrong on principle.  But I think it‘s instructive for law professors.  It does them some good to kiss pigs.  So while, you know, it‘s mean, we need to do it.

Next up. 


JACOB:  Hello.  This is Jacob Reeses (ph) from Lynnwood, New Jersey.  I just saw the short little segment you had on the dog wedding.  That was the single most enjoyable segment I have ever watched on your show.  Thank you so much for bringing that moment into my life. 


CARLSON:  Hard news, Jacob, that‘s what it‘s all about.  Looking for a show to bring you the latest in dog weddings or sausage-eating competitions or sumo wrestlers or female drag racers, THE SITUATION on MSNBC.  That‘s us. 

Thanks for watching. 

Let me know what you‘re thinking.  1-877-TCARLSON.  That‘s 1-877-822-7576.  You can also send your questions via our Web site.  E-mail me any time.  The address:  I will respond every day to anything you can come up with, nothing too weird for us.  You can log on to for our responses.

Still ahead on THE SITUATION, remember the old days when you were just happy to see a guy with a beard of bees?  Well, the stakes have been raised, my friends.  We will show you a full body workout in a full body suit of bees.  No, we are not making it up and we‘ll prove it on “The Cutting Room Floor.” 


CARLSON:  Welcome back.  It‘s that time you‘ve been waiting for all day, “The Cutting Room Floor.”  Willie Geist, separated by a continent, holding down the fort at world HQ.  Willie, what have you got?

WILLIE GEIST, THE SITUATION:  Tucker, how are you?  You and Kenny Kingston, two peas in a pod, my friend.  you guys got along smartly.  And as a producer, I like to take viewers, it‘s Friday, let‘s go behind the scenes a little bit. 

When we went to commercial break, here was the scene between Tucker and Kenny Kingston.  Take a look.  Can you shed some light on exactly what he was saying to you there, Tucker?  Did he give you a reading? 

CARLSON:  I was a having a kind of tender, private, very personal moment with Kenny Kingston, and you and your invasive cameras caught it, and I‘m a little embarrassed there.  And no, I‘m not going to tell you a word of what Kenny Kingston told me. 

GEIST:  What is in the stars for Tucker Carlson? 

CARLSON:  Let‘s just say it‘s going to be a good year. 

GEIST:  Well, you know, you did embarrass us a little bit when you said you thought Flip Wilson was dead.  That‘s just foolish.

CARLSON:  I know.

GEIST:  He‘s starting his new birthday.  You are better than that. 

I got some good stuff for you.  Go ahead, I actually put it in the prompter for you there. 

CARLSON:  Thanks, Willie.  That was quite thoughtful.

Well, a lot of guys are happy to just wear a suit of bees, but not this South Korean beekeeper.  He exercises in his suit.  The 43-year-old got decked out in 260,000 bees yesterday, and then broke into a full workout routine that included pushups and a bike ride.  The man whose career as a beekeeper has made him immune to stings recently bungee-jumped while covered in bees. 

GEIST:  Wow, Tucker, I got to say, this guy is an inspiration.  I can‘t drag myself to the gym on a good day, but if he can do it with a quarter of a million bees on him, I better get there on Monday or something.  This guy is incredible. 

CARLSON:  You know, Willie, sometimes I really worry about Asia.  And never more so than because of this following story. 

GEIST:  Exactly.  Read on, my friend. 

CARLSON:  It‘s really disturbing.

If you are looking to make your wedding day that much more special, why not have Hello Kitty join you at the altar?  In a very disturbing new trend taking hold in Tokyo now, couples are inviting the popular cartoon character to participate in their weddings.  Hello Kitty and her boyfriend Daniel serve as maid of honor and best man at the ceremonies.  They hold the rings and even party with you at the reception.  All this for a mere $10,000.  Willie, remember we used to worry about the Japanese overtaking us? 

GEIST:  Yes. 

CARLSON:  I‘m not worried anymore. 

GEIST:  No, this puts my mind at ease.  And this is a very sad thing.  Let me ask you think, how do you think your brother or your best friend feels going into the wedding when you tell him that the best man is Hello Kitty‘s puppet boyfriend Daniel instead of you?  That has got to be a blow to the ego. 

CARLSON:  That‘s a pretty strong statement. 



GEIST:  Very sad.  It should stop soon. 

CARLSON:  Well, we talked earlier this week about the controversial new dress code that the NBA is imposing on its players this season.  Some players have cried racism because they risk fines if they wear retro jerseys, diamond chains or skullcaps.  But fear not, a Canadian bookie is here to smooth things over.  Calvin Aires (ph) runs a popular gaming Web site, and he has announced he will pay the dress code fines incurred by NBA players this season.

GEIST:  You know what, Tucker, this dress code thing was actually getting pretty ugly, so I‘m glad the guy with the online gambling site finally stepped in to bring a little levity to this whole situation.  This makes me feel much, much better.

There may be a conflict of interest, though.  He actually has a proposition bet on his Web site that predicts, that wants you to predict who will be the first to be fined for the dress code violation.  So I think there is a conflict of interest.  I don‘t know if that matters in online gambling. 

CARLSON:  I can‘t think of a domestic crisis that couldn‘t be improved at least with the intervention of a Canadian bookie. 

GEIST:  Totally.  Check him out. 

CARLSON:  Well, it‘s Friday, so that means it‘s time to meet our human and nonhuman of the week.

First, the nonhuman.  This is Buster, the German shepherd, the search dog who was fired from the South Yorkshire, England Police Department because of his complete lack of commitment to his job.  Constable David Stevenson (ph) said quote, “Buster just showed no interest in doing his job.  He had no fire in his belly.  He has got a very low drive for finding people.” 

GEIST:  This dog is a disgrace to the force.  He ought to turn in his gun and his badge immediately.  Don‘t let the door hit you on the way out, Buster.  Gone.

CARLSON:  He‘d make a great pet, though.  He‘s welcome at my house. 

GEIST:  You can have him.

CARLSON:  And now for the human of the week.  This is a good one.  The award goes to the Rumanian prison inmate who is suing God.  The man says his baptism was a contract with God, and that God let him down by not keeping him away from the devil.  He‘s the almighty for quote, “cheating, concealment and taking bribes.”  The man is now serving a 20-year sentence for murder. 

GEIST:  Tucker, God is sitting up there licking his chops, saying, bring it on.  Can you imagine the dream team he is going to assemble for this case?  Clarence Darrow, William Jennings Bryan, Johnnie Cochran.  I mean, bring it on.

CARLSON:  Socrates.  He ought to be suing his original lawyers for not getting him off on the insanity plea he so richly deserves and qualifies for.

GEIST:  I don‘t like his odds against God, but maybe—I‘m not a lawyer.

CARLSON:  Not going to work.  Willie Geist!

GEIST:  Come on home, Tucker.

CARLSON:  From headquarters.  I‘ll be there.

GEIST:  All right.

CARLSON:  That‘s “THE SITUATION” from Los Angeles tonight.  Thanks a lot for watching.  Up next, “COUNTDOWN WITH KEITH OLBERMANN.”  Have a good weekend.


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