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'Scarborough Country' for Oct. 24th

Read the transcript to the Monday show

Guests: Jon Hart, Beth Holloway Twitty, Robi Ludwig, Anne Bremner, Harvey Levin, Mark Sudduth

JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST:  Tonight‘s top headline does have to do with new details into the CIA leak investigation.  A “New York Times” stunner brings the vice president and former CIA Director George Tenet into the middle of this case. 

Plus, a new investigation finally gets to the cops in Aruba.  Aruban authorities hear the tape suspect Deepak recorded for a TV talk show.  Could they hold evidence needed to rearrest the three?  We are going to be talking to Natalee‘s mom. 

Also, Wilma whales on Florida, winds gusting up to 125 miles an hour, power out to as many as six million residents.  But watch out.  Forecasters say the worst is yet to come.  A super storm may be forming.  We are going to have all the details. 

Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, no passport required, only common sense allowed. 

ANNOUNCER:  From the press room, to the courtroom, to the halls of Congress, Joe Scarborough has seen it all.  Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.

Hey, thanks for being with us tonight.  Greatly appreciate it. 

We are going to get to all those stories in just a minute.  Plus, we are going to have the very latest on the case of the alleged killer of Pam Vitale, the kid who just two short years ago went from a Boy Scout to unfortunately a Goth freak.  And we are going to break it down and talk about the charges and what also made him change so drastically. 

Plus, this businessman is accused of going to a New York strip club, and spending over, get this, $200,000 on a night on the town with his business associates.  He says it‘s not true.  But wait until you hear his side of the story. 

That and a lot more straight ahead, but, first, tomorrow morning‘s “New York Times” is running a story that puts Vice President Dick Cheney at the very center of the CIA leak investigation. 

With me now to talk about this shocking development are Lawrence O‘Donnell, Washington insider and executive producer of “The West Wing.”  We have got Tucker Carlson.  He‘s of “THE SITUATION WITH TUCKER CARLSON,” and Howard Fineman of “Newsweek.” 

Howard, this is a story that jumps right of the page when I read what “The New York Times” is writing tonight, that Scooter Libby got the information, again to his notes, from the vice president of the United States, who got the information from then CIA Director George J. Tenet.  It seemed like this investigation crossed the Rubicon to a full-blown D.C.  scandal. 

Talk about the developments in this case. 

HOWARD FINEMAN, NBC CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT:  Well, I think it‘s nothing short of sensational, Joe, because everybody has wondered about Dick Cheney‘s role was, if any. 

Now, at least according to the sources of “The New York Times,” it was Dick Cheney who put Valerie Plame‘s name in circulation and did so a month or more before Valerie Plame‘s name surfaced in Bob Novak‘s column, which is what set off this investigation.  People knew that Karl Rove had trafficked in Valerie Plame‘s identity, and she was an undercover CIA agent.  They knew that Scooter Libby had talked about Valerie Plame and maybe even somebody called Valerie Flame, who showed up in Judy Miller‘s notes in “The New York Times.” 

Now, if this story is correct, it looks as though it was Dick Cheney who sort of got the ball rolling here, and it puts Dick Cheney at the center, not only in the effort to sell the war initially, but at the center of the effort to try to punish or discredit anybody who got in the way of the administration‘s credibility on the Iraq war.  As I say, it‘s nothing short of sensational.  Dick Cheney has been kind of...


SCARBOROUGH:  And, Howard...


SCARBOROUGH:  And, Howard, on top of that, you have got Dick Cheney getting the information from another very controversial source in the buildup to this war.

And I have just got to say right here, as you know, Howard, this is a war that I supported.  It‘s a war I still support, but George Tenet, George Tenet is the guy that was waving his arms around in the Oval Office, according to Bob Woodward, calling the WMD issues a slam dunk.  Now, this is a guy, according to “The New York Times,” the CIA director, who is telling the vice president of the United States Valerie Plame‘s identity.  That is about as sensational as it gets, isn‘t it? 


FINEMAN:  Well, yes, but no.  It‘s sensational in the sense that it‘s a further portrait of George Tenet as the ultimate political suck-up, who was ignoring the skepticism of his own operational people and his own field people about going into Iraq, was telling George W. Bush that it was a slam dunk, and was serving Dick Cheney‘s political interests in feeding up one of his own undercover agents to Dick Cheney. 

Now, legally, apparently, there‘s nothing illegal about Dick Cheney and George Tenet discussing Valerie Plame.  That is all legal, because they both have top-secret security clearance.  They weren‘t passing the information on themselves to a third party, let alone the public. 

Where it becomes a question of law is whether it was Dick Cheney knowingly feeding that information down the line to other people who were going to publicly unmask and discredit her, or whether Scooter Libby, Dick Cheney‘s chief of staff, was lying to the grand jury to protect his boss, the vice president of the United States. 


FINEMAN:  That‘s where this thing is tonight.


SCARBOROUGH:  Right.  And that‘s what we are going to have to separate out.  You can talk about the legal side of this story.  The legal side of the story only implicates Scooter Libby.  It looks like he is in big trouble.  Politically, it looks like everybody at the White House is in trouble.

But, Lawrence O‘Donnell, I want you to break it down for us. 

Lawrence, welcome back, buddy.  We have missed you. 


SCARBOROUGH:  I want you to break this down for us.  For somebody that just got home on the West Coast, or somebody that just got home from late shift in Iowa, what does this mean to them?  What does it mean about the White House?  Why am I talking about it?  Why are you talking about it?  Why is it important for people outside the beltway? 

LAWRENCE O‘DONNELL, MSNBC SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST:  Because the biggest question since this case first emerged was the question of who told who.

And the legal point of who told who is, what authorized person, what person who was legally empowered to know the identity of Valerie Plame told what person, that then started to move the information out of that chain...


SCARBOROUGH:  OK.  But why do they care, though, Lawrence?  Why should somebody in, let‘s say, Topeka, Kansas, care about who told what?  What‘s the breach here of trust? 

O‘DONNELL:  Because, at some point, there may be a crime in revealing that Joe Wilson‘s wife worked for the CIA, depending on who said it to whom. 

And it‘s a very difficult crime to make.  But the political significance of it, Joe, is that the word Cheney now will appear in headlines all over the country tomorrow right dead center in this story.  I think the legal significance of it is not very much.  First of all, it was perfectly reasonable and perfectly legal for George Tenet to very quickly explain in the White House this Wilson mission and explain his understanding of it, which included Wilson‘s wife being involved in the decision for Wilson to go. 

It was also perfectly legal and perfectly reasonable for Vice President Cheney to say that to Scooter Libby.  It‘s what happens from the Libby point forward, where you start to get into the area of possibly breaking laws.  And then legally, for Libby, the huge problem is, apparently, he told the FBI and under oath told the grand jury that he doesn‘t remember exactly who told him about Wilson‘s—Mrs. Wilson‘s identity, but it was probably a reporter.

In other words, this may be the heart of a perjury charge against the vice president‘s chief of staff. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Tucker Carlson, would you agree that really the implications legally from this story...


SCARBOROUGH:  ... don‘t touch on the vice president right now, don‘t touch on George Tenet right now? 

CARLSON:  I think Lawrence summed it up well. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Right, but they do touch on—it puts Libby in big legal trouble, but it puts the White House in trouble politically. 


CARLSON:  Here‘s the interesting thing. 

No, that‘s absolutely right.  The Identities Protection Act of 1982, I have yet to see any evidence that it was violated or that it can be proved that it was violated.  Here are two interesting things.  Why are we hearing about this right now?  Who leaked this?  Clearly, this came from Fitzgerald‘s office.  There‘s really no other lawyer in this who would have a motive to leak this information. 

Why is Fitzgerald‘s office leaking on the eve of the grand jury going out of business the vice president‘s name in this story?  There‘s something ominous about that, A. 

SCARBOROUGH:  But what‘s the answer?

CARLSON:  I don‘t know the answer, but I would be pretty concerned if I were in the vice president‘s office. 

What would be his motive for putting this out there?  B, Scooter Libby, the idea that he told the grand jury that he had gotten this information originally from a reporter, and then these notes apparently surfaced, according to the story, of a conversation in—on June 12, 2003, between Scooter Libby and the vice president, in which he learned the identity of Mrs. Plame from the vice president—why would Scooter Libby, who is widely known as one of the canniest lawyers, one of the most low-key people in all of Washington, represented Marc Rich, not because he had a big mouth, not because he was reckless, but because he was the opposite of those, why would he make a mistake like that?

Why would he lie like this to a grand jury, knowing that there are notes available by subpoena that are ultimately going to come to light?  That is insane.  That is crazy behavior.  Maybe he did it.  I have no knowledge one way or the other, but it‘s pretty weird. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Howard, let me ask you, you have been talking to people in Washington about this story for weeks, months now.  How about answering Tucker‘s questions?  First of all, why leak this now on the eve of possible indictments, and with the grand jury going out of business?

And, secondly, why would Scooter Libby do something just so stupid, knowing, heck, they learned from the Clinton White House, you never put anything down in writing that you don‘t want to see in a grand jury investigation? 

FINEMAN:  Joe, before I answer those questions, can I answer the one that you asked earlier of Lawrence O‘Donnell...


FINEMAN:  ... about why the guy in Iowa, the family in Iowa, or coming home in L.A., would care, should care? 


FINEMAN:  The reason is that, if this is true, and if the other allegations are true, and if Fitzgerald brings indictments, you are talking about the credibility of the Bush administration.  You are talking about the entire sales effort for what is now a very unpopular war. 

You are talking about a portrait of people in the White House and around the vice president‘s office especially who apparently would stop at nothing to sell the war and to discredit anybody who got in the way after the war started.  That is the big picture.  The big picture of this is that it‘s all about the war in Iraq, whether it was justified and the sales efforts that were used to sell and protect it.  That‘s number one. 

Now, as far as why Scooter Libby would say what he said or who might have leaked this, I think Tucker is probably right, but I am not entirely convinced, because my first take on it, in reading “The New York Times” story, was that Scooter Libby now and the people around Scooter Libby are, in essence, giving up the vice president.  They are basically saying, look, we were laying down.  We were trying to protect the vice president of the United States here. 

That is another possible interpretation of it.  I am not entirely convinced that it‘s Fitzgerald who leaked it. 

O‘DONNELL:  Joe, I don‘t think there‘s any Fitzgerald leak at all.


FINEMAN:  And why Libby would make such a mistake is that Libby knew that it‘s curtains for the vice president, potentially, or politically, very damaging for the administration, if he told the truth right off the bat.  This is an ultimate good soldier, a tough guy, who is ultimately loyal to the vice president and the people around him, and I think was willing until now, until his lawyer decided otherwise, perhaps, to fall on his sword for Dick Cheney. 

CARLSON:  I must say. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Lawrence...




O‘DONNELL:  I don‘t think there‘s any leak from Fitzgerald.  I don‘t think the special prosecutor has leaked one word. 

I think that the Libby side of the case would have an incentive to leak this for the following reason, Joe. 

FINEMAN:  Right. 

O‘DONNELL:  They know through their communication with the prosecutor that this is going to come out in an indictment later this week, all of this information, and if it lands in an indictment, it would be much more explosive than softening the ground this way through this leak at this time. 


CARLSON:  Boy, I don‘t see that at all. 

The suggestion that Scooter Libby would be turning on the vice president I think...


O‘DONNELL:  He is not turning on the vice president at all.  I think he‘s very protective of the vice president.

CARLSON:  Or selling out the vice president or trying to protect himself. 

O‘DONNELL:  I don‘t think he is.  I don‘t think he is. 

CARLSON:  Right.  I think—I mean, anybody...


O‘DONNELL:  The vice president‘s role in this leak is not damaging to the vice president. 


CARLSON:  I couldn‘t agree more.  I absolutely agree.


O‘DONNELL:  ... nothing wrong in this story.


CARLSON:  Look, what happened—let us remember that this conversation between Scooter Libby and the vice president took place before Joe Wilson wrote his famous op-ed in “The New York Times,” saying, my trip to Niger showed me how silly the administration was. 

This was in response to another “New York Times” column by Nicholas Kristof that named Joe Wilson, but not by name.  And, apparently, Cheney takes a look at this and says, “Who is this guy?” and learns from the director of the CIA his identity.  Not a big deal.  But I just don‘t see any motive at all for Scooter Libby‘s lawyer to be leaking this. 

I mean, it makes him look bad.  It makes the vice president look bad.  It seems to me the obvious—the obvious answer is, this comes from the special prosecutor. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Howard Fineman, I—final question to you, Howard. 

You know, I always, when I talked to my staff members on Capitol Hill, when I was in Congress, I said, you guys have got to stop worrying about the lead and just start thinking about headlines.  And that‘s something Lawrence O‘Donnell obviously understands.  The fact that Cheney is going to be in headlines across America tomorrow, that‘s going to make them all sweat at the White House.  It‘s got to be terrible news for the Bush administration tonight. 

FINEMAN:  I don‘t think there‘s any question about it. 

You have already got the focus on two key people, not just Scooter Libby, but Karl Rove, who I think of as the R2-D2 to George Bush‘s Luke Skywalker. 


FINEMAN:  And that R2-D2 thing is in trouble back there in the back seat of the airplane.  And now you have got Dick Cheney, the guy who is a sort of father figure to George W. Bush, a sort of foreign policy conscience and administrative adviser and guy in the background, the gray eminence there.  I think it‘s incredibly damaging and disruptive to George Bush, who must feel right now in the White House tonight like a very isolated man. 

SCARBOROUGH:  No doubt about it. 

Howard Fineman, this one is to be continued.  Thanks for being with us. 

Tucker Carlson, greatly appreciate it. 

Lawrence O‘Donnell, great to have you back on again. 

This is a story, friends, that is going to continue.  I just got to quickly tell you, why do you care if you are outside of the Washington Beltway?  You care for this reason, because, if you are a Republican, if James Carville had leaked the identity of an undercover CIA operative, Republicans would be screaming at the top of their lungs. 

We will be right back in a second.


SCARBOROUGH:  Hurricane Wilma crashes on shore in Florida, but the big news tonight, the monster storm that is moving up the East Coast.  We will have that and a lot more when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns. 



AL ROKER, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  The truck operator, Tom Baer (ph), said, don‘t you wish you had your weight back?  Right about now, I do.  Oh.

Right about now, I do.  Oh. 


SCARBOROUGH:  I‘ll tell you what.  If they can knock down Al Roker, baby.  That was NBC‘s Al Roker falling victim to some of Hurricane Wilma‘s high winds this morning on “The Today Show.”  I bet he would have liked to have some of that weight back. 

Wilma tore through South Florida with winds up to 125 miles per hour today, and Al wasn‘t the only person covering the storm to get knocked around.  Wilma left six people, tragically, dead and six million without power in the South Florida region, before it headed out to sea. 

Let‘s go live now to Palm Beach and NBC‘s Ron Mott, who is right in the middle of the action. 

Ron, what is the latest there tonight? 


You mentioned part of those six million people live here in the Palm Beach County area to our south in Broward and Dade County.  It‘s going to be a dark night here, but, fortunately, very cool night.  Usually, after hurricanes, they are fed by such warm air.  Here, we have got a cold front that is dominating the air tonight.  It‘s actually very, very pleasant here, probably in the low 60s, so it will be a nice night for people to sleep, to get the winds open, although there is no power.  They have given us these light sticks here at the hotel, so at least we can see around our rooms to take showers in the morning, or whatever the case may be. 

I want to show you the heaviest damage that we were able to see this afternoon.  This is just to our south in Lake Worth, Florida.  There is a church that we happened upon that was completely destroyed.  We were actually there when some of the parishioners were getting word apparently that the church was heavily damaged.  They drove up to find that the church that they had Sunday services in for years and years and years, weddings and baptismals and things of that sort, that church completely gone, built there in 1960. 

And it is now gone here in 2005, thanks to Hurricane Wilma—the pastor of that church, just appointed three months ago, and says that they are going to have to rebuild.  He knew that he was going to try to have to take this congregation into the future, but didn‘t expect it to be quite this way. 

The damage otherwise in the West Palm Beach area is fairly minor, superficial, if you will, lots of trees that are down, lots of palm trees toppled over.  Power lines are down, so it could be a while before folks in this area see power reestablished here.

I want to show you some video, if you guys have that ready of us, right after the eye of the storm.  We were right in the middle of the eye of the storm, and we thought, traditionally, the western side of the hurricane usually the weaker side, but once those winds started whipping up, coming out of the north and to the northwest, we were all taken by surprise.  Want to show you a little bit of that video right now. 


MOTT:  We sort of joked that that tree might find its way back upright.  It has done that and then some.  It‘s now putting back to the east. 

So, this wind really is beginning to pick up now.  This might be a gust of about 90 miles an hour, maybe 100.  So, things are quite extensive right here.  And now we are beginning to get the rain here.  So, folks, if you are able to watch us here in South Florida, stay where you are.  Again, a lot of the TV stations, we understand, have lost power.  The NBC affiliate in West Palm Beach, the NBC affiliate down in Miami are without power and unable to transmit, so hopefully folks will have their battery-powered storm radio. 


MOTT:  All right, Joe, well, I am still picking the sand out of my eyes from that live shot earlier in the day.  It was quite a surprise to all of us here, the winds certainly triple-digit—back to you, Joe. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right, thanks so much.  Great report, NBC‘s Ron Mott.  That‘s some dangerous duty down there.  Greatly appreciate it. 

I will tell you, actually, that‘s where I was about a year ago during Hurricane Jeanne, also west Palm Beach, blew me around, also, I think, broke my back, put me in the hospital for three months. 

Now, every time a hurricane hits, well, a certain breed comes out of the woodwork.  They are the ones that head for the danger.  This is some of the video of Wilma that was shot by my next guest.  He is a storm chaser. 

Mark Sudduth, editor of, joins me from Naples, Florida. 

Thanks so much for being with me, Mark. 

Talk about this storm.  Take our viewers in Middle America into the middle of it. 

MARK SUDDUTH, EDITOR, WWW.HURRICANETRACK.COM:  Sure, Joe.  Thanks for having me. 

Let me tell you, this truck behind me here to my right was in the thick of this hurricane today.  And my job is to get information and then share that with others in the off-season, but, today, it was all about being in the middle of this hurricane, as safely as possible, and gathering the data. 

The winds came up on the southeast side, as it approached.  And then we went into the eye, and we had that little drizzle thing that goes on in the eye, very heavy drizzle, and then the backside came around and was the most surprising part of this hurricane for me and my crew, that backside came around with northwest winds, and really pounded the coast here.  We were in Marco Island, running basically ground reconnaissance up and down the main road there, working with the Collier County emergency management officials, sending information to them.

But we are seeing buildings peeling apart, garbage flying up in the air, and these huge waves sloshing around in these little harbors and these boat slips, just an incredible display of nature.  And the wind would just pound and pound and pound on things, until it couldn‘t take it anymore.  Then it would just snap and splinter out in many different directions.  And the video that you showed is only a tiny portion of what went on in a good deal of South Florida today. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You know, Mark, every storm, every hurricane is different.  And they all have their own penalties.  Some storms, like Hurricane Ivan, will come into an area like my hometown of Pensacola, and the storm surge will cause the greatest damage.

In other storms, you will have flooding that will cause the greatest damage or tornadoes.  Is it safe to say that for—for Hurricane Wilma, it all came down to the heavy winds that probably ended up causing the biggest damages where you were? 

SUDDUTH:  That‘s right, the wind was a major impact from this particular hurricane.  It had a very large eye. 

I think, though, that if the hurricane had made landfall a little bit farther north, maybe towards Fort Myers, that perhaps Naples and Marco Island and Everglades City would have had a much higher storm surge. 

I am not a meteorologist.  I am more of a public information and educator/reporter kind of role, but I think meteorology would suggest that if the track was farther north, we could have seen a more substantial storm surge added to the wind and the rain and tornadoes that we had, and so it could have been a lot worse, could have been a lot worse. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, boy, I will tell you what, thank goodness for everybody in South and Central Florida that it wasn‘t.  Greatly appreciate you being with us, Mark Sudduth and appreciate the video that you brought in to take Americans into the middle of Hurricane Wilma. 

Now, friends, Wilma may have passed by Florida, but, tonight, forecasters are tracking a possible super storm heading up the East Coast that could bring everything from flooding to snowstorms. 

With us now to get us up to date on the very latest from NBC Weather Plus is Bill Karins. 

Bill, talk about the next storm to come. 

BILL KARINS, NBC METEOROLOGIST:  Yes, this one is going to be different, Joe. 

This is going to be a nor‘easter.  First, Wilma, the track going to go clearly of the coast, not into New England.  If it was to go towards New England, yes, we would have one of those scenarios, something very similar to what happened in that October with the perfect storm. 

You can see Wilma here, still a large circulation, still a Category 3. 

But we have a new storm developing just off the coast of North Carolina.  This is going to be a classic nor‘easter.  The winds are really going to kick up, and people in New England are going to be feeling like they are hit by a tropical storm as you go throughout your Tuesday. 

We are expecting 20-foot-high waves out towards Long Island and out towards Cape Cod, a storm surge of around three to four feet, heavy flooding rains.  And to top it all off, in the interior, Joe, we are going to see the first snow of the year at the higher elevations, Pennsylvania, Upstate New York, and New Hampshire, as much as six inches of snow. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  Thanks so much.

I will tell you what.  It‘s been a busy year for you. 

KARINS:  Yes. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And I am afraid it‘s not going to stop for some time. 

Thanks for being with us. 

Inside the mind of an accused killer—coming up next in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, what may have turned a clean-cut kid into a murderer?  Alleged murderer, of course.  We are going to be talking to one of his classmates.  Plus, new details from the crime scene. 

And a series of massive explosions in Baghdad, the latest on today‘s deadly attack on a hotel full of Western journalists. 

Stay with us.  That‘s coming up.


SCARBOROUGH:  Breaking news tonight in the Natalee Holloway investigation.  And I am going to show you part of my interview with her mother.  Beth Holloway Twitty went inside their home and got the latest on their plans, as Beth Holloway Twitty heads back to Aruba. 

But, first, here‘s the latest news you and your family need to know. 


SCARBOROUGH:  We all know strip clubs can rake in big bucks, but can you believe one man in New York spent a quarter-of-a-million dollars in one night?  Now he is saying he got ripped off.  The club says he spent every penny.  How did he do it and why did he do it?  He says it‘s all business.  We will tell you about it.  Welcome back to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY—that terrible story in just minutes.

But, first, police documents have been released today that say Pamela Vitale, wife of attorney David Horowitz, was found—quote—“lying in a pool of blood with a four-inch-deep stab wound to her abdomen, multiple wounds to her legs and traumatic head injury.”

The question is, did 16-year-old Scott Dyleski go from Boy Scout to Gothic disciple to killer in just a few short years? 

Let‘s bring in our panel to talk about it tonight.  We have got Harvey Levin.  He‘s managing editor of  We have Dr. Robi Ludwig, a psychotherapist.  And, also, we have Anne Bremner.  She‘s a defense attorney and friend of Daniel Horowitz. 

Harvey, let‘s start with you.  You know this case.  What happened? 

HARVEY LEVIN, EDITOR, TMZ.COM:  Well, you know, right after this kid got arrested, I spoke with the mother of his half-sister, who was killed in a car accident. 

Her first reaction was, this kid seemed really normal to her, until the funeral, and he just fell apart.  And, you know, from all reports, it seems that he went on a downhill spiral from there.  I am not convicting him, but simply saying that this kid became extremely deeply troubled right after... 


SCARBOROUGH:  So, Harvey, the death of his sister was a triggering event, then? 

LEVIN:  Well, you know, the death of his sister, Joe, was the triggering event, so cops say, but what is more puzzling is this kid, allegedly, was involved in some kind of a credit card scam. 

How do you go from a credit card scam to this cold-blooded, Manson-esque murder on a dime, and that‘s what authorities are saying happened.  There‘s something really bizarre in this case that I think we don‘t yet know about. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Anne, talk about the bizarre aspects of this case. 

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY:  Well, Manson-esque is the word. 

Remember, in the Tate-LaBianca case, that Manson and his followers, they carved war in the chest of Mr. LaBianca and then put helter-skelter and blood in pig on the wall.  When you think about this kind of carving in the case, it was in the back of Pamela that—some have described it as a Goth-like symbol. 

There‘s one quote I read in some of this Goth literature, which is, I love to see the coming destruction of beauty.  It‘s like the last dance before the walls come crumbling down.  This dark type of culture, you don‘t go from becoming from a Boy Scout to coming in and hitting someone 39 times in a senseless and brutal crime. 

Something is very, very wrong here, Joe, and something disastrous has occurred to a good friend of mine, a good friend of a lot of us, Dan Horowitz, and something that has yet to be explained, but I think it‘s really inexplicable. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Doctor, try to explain it to us.  I want to—show the picture of Scott, I think, in 2003, the youngest picture we have.  I want our audience to see this young boy. 

Well, that‘s ‘04.  There was a picture of him even younger, the year before.  How does it happen?  How do you go from a Boy Scout to a—there, look on the left.  How do you go from Boy Scout to possible Goth killer three years later? 


ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST:  Clearly, this kid had a lot of problems, and a lot of the troubles were missed somehow. 

You certainly can have a child who loses a sibling.  It creates a lot of chaos in the family.  And, somehow, his needs were not addressed.  And we don‘t want to blame the parents, because perhaps the parents were also dealing with their own intense feelings of grief.  One wonders if this child turned to drugs as a way to self-medicate himself, and that created that downward spiral.  We know sometimes with kids who are attracted to the Goth or pseudo-Goth movement, it is...


SCARBOROUGH:  Well, Doctor, let me ask you this question, because there are a lot of parents—I‘m sorry to interrupt you.

LUDWIG:  Yes. 

SCARBOROUGH:  But there are a lot of parents out there obviously very concerned:  Gee, could my kid turn from a Boy Scout to a possible killer in two short years?  I mean, did the kid need to be...


LUDWIG:  Probably not. 

SCARBOROUGH:  OK.  Go ahead. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Probably not, because it is—this is more unusual than usual, thank goodness.

But I think what all parents need to know is that adolescent, especially adolescent boys, are more vulnerable to not handling their aggression properly, if parents are not in tune with their kids.  And the best thing that parents can do with their children is to have an ongoing supportive relationship with them that starts early on, so that when kids enter adolescence, there‘s more of a relationship and foundation, so if there are signs that they are going of track, they can address it with their children and with supportive people in the community. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Harvey, reports out there that—from kids that went to high school, that he would go to lunch and read the Satanic Bible.  Talk about that element of this story. 

LEVIN:  Well, you know, this kid was into something very, very dark, no doubt about it.  I think, you know, I think you got to be careful not to say, just because a kid acts up like that, gets into this Goth culture, even reads the book of Satan, that doesn‘t necessarily mean that he is headed for becoming a killer. 

I mean, there are a lot of kids who act out, who want to express individuality in weird ways.  What I find just so enigmatic about this case is not that, that he was into that, but this kid was acting out by basically trying to scam people out of their credit cards.  What I still don‘t understand in this case is, how do you go from that to this incredible kind of rage killing, with no evidence of this kind of violent behavior as far as we know yet in this kid‘s past? 

Something happened here.  And I don‘t think it was necessarily predictable.  I don‘t think it was because he was into Goth.  There‘s something more, I believe, that happened here that triggered this incredible brutality. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And that‘s something, Harvey, we are going to be finding out more about in the future. 

Harvey Levin, Dr. Ludwig, and Anne Bremner, thank you so much for being with us tonight.  We really appreciate it. 

Right now, let‘s go to Tucker Carlson—actually, we are going to go to Tucker next.  Yes.  That‘s sort of a tease for you to stick around for Tucker.

But, up next, we are going to be talking about justice for Natalee and new information coming out of Aruba tonight. 

Plus, more of my one-on-one visit with Beth Holloway Twitty at her home.

And it must have been a heck of a night.  A businessman runs up a bill of $241,000 at a strip club.  And he says he is not paying.  We will tell you why. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Possible break in the Natalee Holloway investigation.

Gerald Dompig, the new lead investigator in the case, said today that Deepak Kalpoe‘s taped confession that all three suspects had sex with Natalee Holloway could lead to a break in this investigation in Aruba, some heat finally being turned up by the investigators in that island that really has been engaged, in my opinion, in a Caribbean cover-up. 

You know, I went to Birmingham, Alabama, and I sat down with Natalee‘s mom, Beth Twitty, and asked her just how close they think they are to getting some answers now that a new investigator has finally taken over this case. 


BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY:  Now, we have a lead investigator, Gerald Dompig, who is coming up—coming out and saying that these three young men are the perpetrators. 

Initially, van der Straaten was placed on as lead investigator as early as May 31, June 1, 2, 3, 4.  And around the 5, van der Straaten was removed from Natalee‘s case by the prime minister.  And Dompig was placed as lead investigator, and we were—we welcomed that.  We welcomed that, because of the connection that Paul van der Sloot and van der Straaten had.  They had a—they‘re very good friends, very, very close. 

Even—van der Straaten is even Joran van der Sloot‘s godfather.  So, when Gerald Dompig was placed on as lead investigator, we were just—we were relieved.  And he actually—you know, he was actually beginning to see just what had happened.  And I felt—we felt he was getting close to the answer.

And then, suddenly, within a few days, he was off.  And van der Straaten was back on board. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Wait.  Are you telling me they kicked him off the case? 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  Yes.  Yes.  they removed him. 


SCARBOROUGH:  And put—and put the van der Sloot‘s—one of their closest friends, back on the case again?

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  Yes, put van der Straaten back on.

SCARBOROUGH:  Is there any way to get justice in this system? 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  I don‘t know.  I don‘t know.  I don‘t know.  I don‘t know if it will work, but I think that Aruba sees that they have to.  I think that the pressure that stays on them makes them realize they have to solve this case. 

SCARBOROUGH:  But what is the pressure point?  Do you put the pressure on the Dutch authorities? 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  Well, and I met with Prime Minister Oduber.

I don‘t care who you put the pressure on, where it comes from, but I want—you need to figure it out.  You need to figure out who needs to apply the pressure and where it needs to be applied, because you have to solve this crime.  I said, you do not want to turn me loose from this island without an answer. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Do you think it‘s the three, or do you think this is all about Joran? 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  Well, I think it‘s the three. 

I think that the reason why they—you know, when I say the three, it‘s because they never wanted to implicate any of them, because now we have got to look at it.  If they were going to impact Deepak and Satish Kalpoe all alone, they would have flipped on Joran van der Sloot. 


HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  So, I think that they had to keep all three as tightly woven together. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You talk about the flipping.  Didn‘t Joran point at the other two brothers and then they got angry and there may have been some threats going back and forth? 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  You know, Joran van der Sloot and Deepak and Satish Kalpoe were not denying.  They were not denying a crime.  They were implicating each other.  They were fingering each other over and over again.

And that was the day that the FBI came in, Doug Shipley (ph) came in and said that the way the interrogations are unfolding, there‘s a strong possibility that Natalee may not be alive.  That was huge.  That was the day that—I think, Joe, everyone buried Natalee that day, on June 10. 

And then it just—from there, the night went on.  There were body sightings, countless.  They were knocking on my door.  They thought they found her.  Oh, no, they didn‘t.  It went on from 2:00 a.m. to 3:00 a.m. to 4:00 a.m.  It was horrific.

So, whatever was happening that day, on June 10, we were getting the answer.  Then, the next day, June 11, is when Prime Minister Oduber comes on international media and announces to the world that there‘s blood; there‘s blood in Deepak and Satish Kalpoe‘s car.  I mean, all that was happening for a reason. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And while these three suspects are hiding in plain view, are you going to do everything you can, in the words of Deepak Kalpoe, ruin their lives, make sure their lives are over, until the truth comes out?  Will you stay on this case for the rest of your life? 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  Oh, absolutely.  And I have told Prime Minister Oduber that I will do this, I will be the voice of Natalee for the next 40 years.  And I hope I have that long, because I will do it as long as I can. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You will never rest?

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  Oh, no, no.  They need to be—they need to be behind bars. 

SCARBOROUGH:  We are here in your home, in Natalee‘s home.  Is it getting any easier for you to be here? 


SCARBOROUGH:  In her home?  It‘s just the pain every time you walk through here? 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  It just makes me mad.  It just makes me angry. 



SCARBOROUGH:  Talk about all the different stages of grief. 


SCARBOROUGH:  You going to stay on anger for a while? 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  I am going to stay on anger for a long time, yes.  I just—I‘m—yes.  Yes.  And it‘s because of the...


SCARBOROUGH:  Does it help keep your focus on your mission? 


And I think that the reason why the anger is there is because—a friend of mine has said it beautifully.  It‘s because the suspects are hiding in plain view.  And until they are not hiding in plain view, yes, I will be angry every day. 


SCARBOROUGH:  A tough, tough woman, a steel magnolia, as we call them in the South. 

Coming up next, dramatic video and a horrific attack in Baghdad. 

Suicide bombers target a hotel full of journalists. 

We will have the very latest on how one night in a strip club cost nearly a quarter-of-a-million dollars. 

All that and more coming up when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns.


SCARBOROUGH:  What would you do if you had $240,000 to spend in one night? 

Well, if the allegations are true, a CEO dropped it all at a New York strip club. 

Here‘s NBC‘s Alison Stewart with this incredibly stupid story. 


ALISON STEWART, NBC CORRESPONDENT (voice-over):  Twenty-two years ago, Rob McCormick was a St. Louis senior headed to college.  Today, he is the latest poster boy for CEOs gone wild.  New York tabloids report, the  Savvis Communications chairman was charged $241,000 by the Manhattan strip club Scores.  And the tab went on the company credit card. 

JIM WILSON, OWNER, CITY SCAPE - NEW YORK:  I do have a VIP champagne room, which goes for $1,000 an hour, just for the club. 

STEWART:  Jim Wilson, owner of gentleman‘s club City Scape - New York, says many white-collar types have traded golf clubs for strip clubs when it comes time to do business. 

WILSON:  I do know of people that I know personally that have spent $20,000, $30,000 in one night in the clubs in Manhattan. 

STEWART (on camera):  Twenty grand is what Robert McCormick admits to dropping at this club, not $241,000.  Now, the courts will settle that dispute.  But a group of executives at a high-end club raking up a six-figure bill is quite possible, according to one former dancer. 

LILY BURANA, AUTHOR, “STRIP CITY”:  It really is an environment created to cater to this sense of white-collar entitlement, and they deliver in spades.  So...

STEWART:  Lily Burana is a stripper-turned-journalist. 

(on camera):  What was the biggest tip that you ever got in a night? 

BURANA:  For me, the biggest tip I ever got in a night from a single customer was $2,500, but I do have peers in the strip club industry for whom that would make them laugh. 

STEWART (voice-over):  Robert McCormick was not available for comment, but his company stands behind him and is contesting the charge, telling NBC News: “Savvis is working with legal counsel to resolve the claim and protect the interests of Savvis, its shareholders, customers and partners.  The case does impact our ability to deliver superior products and services.”

Business deals and high heels, an open secret. 

BURANA:  Is corporate networking in the environment of an upscale strip club good business?  Absolutely.  Is it good taste?  That‘s debatable. 

STEWART:  Alison Stewart, NBC News, New York.


SCARBOROUGH:  I love the part there, a stripper-turned-journalist. 

Boy, if I had a dime for every time I heard that line. 

Let me bring in right now Jon Hart, who writes for the men‘s magazine “Maxim” and for “Time Out New York.” 

OK, I got to admit, Jon, I don‘t get it.  You got this businessman. 

He drops a quarter of a million dollars in one strip club in one night. 

How do you do that? 

JON HART, “MAXIM”:  Well, it‘s more common than you think of. 

From the minute you walk into Scores, you are in a fantasy land.  The lights are dimmed.  There are no clocks.  The women smell nice.  They wear these nice dresses.  You lose track of time. 

SCARBOROUGH:  We are talking about a quarter-of-a-million dollars. 

How do you lose track of a quarter-of-a-million dollars? 

HART:  Hey, I wasn‘t there.  I am just saying, money goes quickly. 


HART:  But he did go into the elite president‘s room.  If I am going to blow a quarter-of-a-million, I would like to actually meet the president. 



SCARBOROUGH:  Let‘s take a look at what $241,000 could get you during a night out at Scores, 30 bottles of champagne at $3,200 a bottle.  You got 350 martinis, each costing $22, 750 shots at $17.50 per shot, 65 private rooms at $1,000 a room, 850 bottles of water for only $9 per water.  Well, that‘s a deal—and 2,576 lap dances. 

Talk about a busy night, Jon.  So, I want—let‘s expand this out and talk about what you said.  And I have heard this time and time again, that more and more businesses, more and more businessmen, more and more executives are going to these places to conduct business. 

HART:  Well, sure. 

Mr. McCormick obviously wanted to feel like the star quarterback, the all-American, and he wanted the cheerleaders as well.  Perhaps he became very free-spending that evening to impress his business associates.  Was he going to, say, stop?  Maybe he was closing a deal.  Who knows.  Loosen everybody up.  Make everyone feel good.  Perhaps it‘s better than going to a ball game. 


HART:  It‘s not how I do business.



SCARBOROUGH:  I was going to say, I think I will stick with a ball game. 

Jon Hart, thanks so much for being with us.  We really appreciate it. 

But I got to tell you, friends, I just don‘t get it.  I really just don‘t understand it, but I guess that‘s just part of our culture these days. 

We will be right back in a second.


SCARBOROUGH:  A massive storm is headed for the Northeast.  For the latest, stay tuned with MSNBC,, and NBC Weather Plus. 

We will be right back.


SCARBOROUGH:  It was on December 1, 1955, that a white man in Montgomery, Alabama, demanded that an African-American give up her seat.  Rosa Parks said no.  And America was never the same. 

We remember Rosa Parks tonight and salute her in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY. 

That‘s all the time we have for tonight. 


Tucker, what‘s the situation tonight? 

CARLSON:  Thanks, Joe. 


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