Guests: Henry Lee, Vito Colucci, Gloria Allred, Al Deblanc, Art Wood, Joe Mammana, Paul Reynolds, Jo-Ellan Dimitrius, Erin Runnion, Scott Andreassi, Charlie Brennan, Delores Eliades, Chuck Zito, Damon Feldman, Lee Greenwood, Jonna Mendez, Tony Mendez
RITA COSBY, HOST: Good evening. No Elmo here, Keith, but thank you.
Good evening, everybody. Tonight, new developments in the Natalee Holloway case. Investigators in Aruba are about to restart searches. They‘ll tell us what they‘re looking for.
Also, the CEO accused of racking up a six-figure bill at a strip club could be in more hot water soon tonight. We‘ll look at what really goes on inside these gentlemen clubs.
And more trouble for fallen ice queen Tonya Harding, a wild fight and now a 911 call. Her former manager will join us LIVE AND DIRECT.
But first, some gruesome new information in the murder of Pamela Vitale, the wife of prominent attorney Daniel Horowitz. Sixteen-year-old Scott Dyleski has been charged as an adult for her murder. Now we‘re learning more about what happened during the brutal killing.
Joining us now live is Henry Lee with the “San Francisco Chronicle” . Henry, yes, we heard she had been bludgeoned. Now we‘re hearing she was stabbed?
HENRY LEE, “SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE”: That‘s right. She was stabbed allegedly in the stomach, left a four-inch wound and Dan Horowitz found his wife lying in a pool of blood.
COSBY: What else about wounds to her leg? What can you tell us about that?
LEE: There were numerous wounds on her leg. We don‘t know what it means, but suffice it to say, heck of a fight inside the house there.
COSBY: Now what about the killer wearing gloves? This is some new information.
LEE: Right, the crime lab of Contra Costa County determined that the suspect was not—no fingerprints, so therefore gloves were worn during this incident.
COSBY: No fingerprints at all in the home is what you‘re saying?
LEE: We can‘t say about the resident in the home, but certainly certain things that the suspect touched no fingerprints there.
COSBY: What about this—quote—“large sized blood shoeprint.”
LEE: That‘s right. We—the affidavit did not specifically say whether that shoeprint matches Scott, but suffice it to say, they found a bloody shoeprint that is evidence in the case, Rita.
COSBY: They‘re also looking for some other pieces of evidence. I want to put up a full screen if I could. These are just some of the other items that we know they‘re looking for.
They‘re looking for clearly shoes to match maybe I would assume that shoe print. Knives, gloves, two brands of cleaning products and also any type of murder weapon that could cause blunt-force trauma.
Cleaning products because the scene was so cleaned up, right, Henry?
LEE: That‘s right, would show that the person on the property used a special cleaner that does remove blood.
COSBY: And we have some new details about credit cards, a stolen credit card. A new report from a neighbor, right? Tell us about that.
LEE: That‘s right. Neighbor Doug Schneider said, hey, someone used my credit card to buy pot stuff. The pot stuff was apparently supposed to go to Pamela Vitale‘s house. I didn‘t order it and the supplier withheld shipment. And that‘s probably what led Scott to the home there.
COSBY: All right. Thank you very much. Good job, Henry. Thank you.
And so what does the new evidence tell investigators about the Vitale murder? Joining us now is former police detective and also private investigator Vito Colucci.
Vito, first of all, the fact that this kid, if it is this kid, wore gloves, but then on the other hand we‘re hearing that there was a bloody shoeprint. That doesn‘t fit.
VITO COLUCCI, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Well what you have here, Rita, you‘ve got a 16-year-old, not a career criminal here. OK. He wipes down the crime scene, but what does he do? He drinks out of a glass. He takes a shower. He does the gothic mark on her back after the killing. So this is an untrained kid, OK.
He tried to do the best he can. What‘s important to me is this whole glove bit, OK? The search warrant didn‘t reveal any gloves at the house, OK? These gloves that he was wearing that night it shows me a lot, OK? I thought up until tonight that this maybe was done with somebody else until I read the reports today with that stab wound because I said no way is he going to overpower this woman that‘s six or seven inches taller until he did the stab wound where in the stomach.
COLUCCI: That brought her down and the killing blows like we know were from the instrument.
COSBY: You know what‘s amazing, Vito, this is such a violent death. I mean we heard horrible details before, but it seemed like such a rage killing. And we always believed that he just sort of showed up to get this pot equipment that he was going to get and he showed up on her. It doesn‘t really fit again.
COLUCCI: But Rita, that‘s the whole key for this guy‘s life. The marijuana-growing equipment, he felt maybe that it was in the house. He has to get that. That‘s what this kid is living for, OK? We know that from his dealings with this other fellow, the stealing of these credit cards.
All of this work has gone into it what I think is going to happen here
I said a couple of days ago that I thought a neighbor was going to crack this case. That happened. Now I feel there‘s going to be good evidence on those computers that they‘ve taken and I think that‘s going to add a lot more to this.
COSBY: Seized from his home—this if from the 16-year-old kid—two laptops, a computer central processing unit, bedding, knives, duffel bag. Sounds like they did pretty thorough search. And again you don‘t believe someone else is involved, right Vito? What if that—what if the shoe doesn‘t fit?
COLUCCI: Well, then that‘s a whole different story if the shoe doesn‘t fit. Just from my background and experience, I believe right now that he did this on his own. But I‘ll tell you this much, the police are working 24 hours a day. They‘re talking to every Goth person and everybody that knows this guy, e-mail transmissions, everything. This is not a done deal yet by any means. They don‘t want to lose this, Rita.
COSBY: You‘re right. Vito, thank you very much.
And now we‘re joined by victim‘s rights attorney Gloria Allred and also criminal defense attorney Al Deblanc.
Gloria, you know now you hear the heinousness of this crime. I would imagine prosecutors are going to really go for the ultimate punishment here.
GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIM‘S RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Well first of all, they gave their first signal when they decided to charge him, Rita, as an adult rather than as a juvenile. Because if he were charged as a juvenile, the maximum he could have received would have been to be kept incarcerated until he was 25 years old. But as an adult, if he were convicted, he could get life in prison, and so there‘s a big difference. I think they‘re coming down hard on this particular suspect.
COSBY: You know and Al, now that we‘re hearing about these gloves, we‘re hearing some of these other arrangements, sounds a lot more sort of premeditated, much more planned than we had heard before. That hurts him, doesn‘t it?
ALLRED: We don‘t know whether it was premeditated or not. And of course, he hasn‘t been arraigned, so we don‘t yet know formally what he‘ll be charged with. But—and that may happen on Thursday or it may not. But I think the point is that for premeditation, the law does not require a long period of time. There can even be a very short period of time for premeditation. So it may, in fact, be that he will be charged with premeditated murder. We‘ll have to wait and see.
COSBY: Now Al Deblanc, you know you look at gloves. You look at cleaning the scene. You look at taking a shower as we first reported. All of these deals, that‘s going to be a tough thing to defend, right, Al?
AL DEBLANC, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Rita, it will be. I mean it‘s really like riding the rapids. You‘d have to wait and see what comes at you, what turn you‘re going to have to make. One of the advantages and one of the requirements of the law for due process in the criminal case is that the defense be given all the discovery.
So at this point, what does the discovery tell you? There‘s actually at this point no physical evidence tying it to him. There‘s a lot of evidence that suggested he did it. That‘s called circumstantial evidence. The case is likely to be complex because I don‘t think anybody has talked about it, but the felony murder appears to apply here in my judgment because if he used a credit card and he‘s receiving stolen property at their location, it‘s basically grand theft.
You enter into a mobile home to commit a crime to recover the proceeds of the use of the credit card, that‘s the felony murder rule. That means that his intent doesn‘t matter. If there‘s a death as a result of entry into that house, that‘s life without possibility of parole. If he were an adult, he would face the death penalty, so there are a lot of issues.
If it doesn‘t come at you that way, then you‘ve got to look at the underlying intent. So his defense should be at this point based on the discovery that I‘m aware of through the media is that I didn‘t do this crime.
DEBLANC: Somebody very sophisticated is setting me up. It‘s not me because any other approach at this point will be devastating.
COSBY: You bring up some good points. Gloria, real quick, do you think they‘re going to go after insanity? We heard that you know divorce just happened in his family. He‘s going to say I just snapped. There doesn‘t seem to be a criminal history here.
ALLRED: You know I‘m sure that his defense will explore all possible options that would be available, but it isn‘t easy to have an insanity defense and of course he would have to admit that he did it. I doubt that that‘s going to happen here.
COSBY: All right, guys. Thank you both very much.
And there are some new developments tonight in the Natalee Holloway case. We have learned that forensic divers will be back in the waters off the island of Aruba starting tomorrow. Those divers are working off information coming from Aruban authorities.
Live on the phone tonight from Aruba is private investigator Art Wood. Art, why are divers focusing on the area by the fisherman‘s hut? That‘s an area that you and I were looking at when I was down in Aruba.
ART WOOD, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR (via phone): Rita, the reason they‘re focusing there is because over the past four months, the leads that have come in on this case continue to point to the area off shore of the fishermen‘s huts.
COSBY: Now, are these new areas or are these different areas or are there new tips going there, Art?
WOOD: There are new tips coming in all the time. Dave Holloway and I have met with Chief Dompig three times and he‘s very encouraged by the leads that are coming in. He‘s consistent with the fact that he wants to solve this case and quite frankly, the Aruban police need to do it. They need to solve it.
COSBY: You bet. Well Art, I know that you‘ve been working on this long and hard and please keep us posted on whatever you guys find there. Thank you.
And some strong words tonight from the man funding part of the search
for Natalee Holloway. During a speech tomorrow in Ohio with Natalee‘s mom
by his side, Joe Mammana, who has been helping this family a lot tells the
three suspects in Natalee‘s disappearance to watch out.” He says—quote
“these three pieces of trash, they can run, but they can‘t hide. I want them and the Aruban government to look at me and know that they are—quote—“out of their lead.”
Joe Mammana is LIVE AND DIRECT tonight from Columbus, Ohio. And Joe -
also with us is also Paul Reynolds. He‘s Natalee Holloway‘s uncle. Joe, did you deliver the speech already, I understand?
JOE MAMMANA, PHILADELPHIA PHILANTHROPIST: Yes, I did tonight.
COSBY: How was it received?
MAMMANA: It was received very well. We had about 70 to 100 people tonight at a special function with the mayor. Pretty much the people of Columbia, Ohio down here are ready to work behind me if I‘m looking for a boycott. I‘ve been in touch with the Teamsters Union. They‘re ready to work with me in certain areas and it was odd because one of the reporters tonight approached me and said do you realize with your harsh words, you could start an international incident.
And I said you‘ve got to be kidding me? This is an international incident. We have a missing American on foreign soil. It‘s already an incident and we need to bring it to closure. And I understand that this police chief, Dompig, seems to be the only one over there that is really working with the Twitty/Holloway family and I commend him for that.
But I highly suggest that the rest of the Aruban government gets off
their behinds and get rid of that lackadaisical, lethargic attitude that
they have and realize that when I do push for a boycott—which I will get
that I can‘t un-ring the bell and I don‘t want to hurt the Aruban people, but the Aruban people need to put pressure from within and bring this thing to a head very quickly.
COSBY: And I want to talk about a boycott (INAUDIBLE). I want to bring in Paul too. Paul, are you getting a sense that this is sort of the time to get tough?
PAUL REYNOLDS, NATALEE HOLLOWAYY‘S UNCLE: You know we‘re very happy right now. The investigation is continuing. What we‘re hearing from the police commissioner, Gerald Dompig, is very encouraging. He‘s taking this personal. You know we‘re seeing the dive team come in. I mean we‘re very excited that things are happening and you know we‘re amazed at the support that we‘re receiving from around the world and everyone that‘s come together to help us out.
COSBY: Do you feel, Paul that you‘re in reach of something? I do agree with you. I think that Chief Dompig is really trying to do a thorough investigation taking it very seriously. Do you get a sense that they maybe are close to at least resolving this in some shape or form?
REYNOLDS: You know we have to think so. The active role that‘s being taken now, the steps that are taken, the possible re-arrests of the individuals or at least questioning them is going to take us closer to solving this, so we‘re very excited about it.
COSBY: Let me show a comment. This is from Joe on the boycott issue. I know you made a couple of comments that are real strong. But you said you talked to the Philly City Council where you‘re based and you said when a resolution will be passed calling for a boycott of Aruba as a tourist destination, then we will have the undivided attention of Aruba and its government. Do you believe, Joe, that that‘s what it‘s going to take for them to say we‘ve got to solve this case?
MAMMANA: I honestly think yes at this time. As you know, a few weeks ago I made some comments on your show, Rita, and—that you know we were going to circle the wagons in every direction. As you know, over the weekend, Beth was able to meet with Condoleezza Rice. And as you know, the government now seems to be helping us in certain areas, which I really can‘t elaborate on right now.
But we‘re covering every angle and, yes, you need pressure on this thing. I think the Aruban government made a lot of mistakes. I think if this case was to happen today, it would be closed within a week or two. They never anticipated in a million years of Beth Twitty to be the kind of person she was, the endurance she has, the strength she has, and to get the support of people like myself and the rest of the United States behind her.
COSBY: I agree. And also real quick, Paul, I know that you and Beth Twitty are going down to Aruba. What are your plans real fast?
REYNOLDS: We plan to meet with the authorities there and know get a better handle on exactly what‘s happened and where they‘re headed. And you know we‘re certainly hoping for results. We‘re very excited that that will happen.
COSBY: Well we certainly hope so. Paul and Joe—I think with Joe at the helm and the support that he‘s given your family, I think that you guys are going to get some answers real soon. Both of you, thank you very much. We appreciate it.
And coming up on LIVE AND DIRECT, more trouble for Tonya Harding. We‘re going to explain why the infamous ice queen got into yet another fight.
And top country singer Lee Greenwood is going to join us live to tell us what he‘s doing for our American troops. And that‘s just the beginning of what‘s ahead for tonight‘s show.
Still ahead, a crime that shocked the nation. A young girl abducted in broad daylight behind a local car wash. Now the trial of Carlie Brucia‘s accused killer begins, but what can be done to make sure justice is served?
Also the CIA saga, an undercover agent‘s name leaked to the media in a scandal that could bring down top White House players. Now the CIA‘s masters of disguise show us firsthand the lengths they go to, to stay undercover.
And speaking of revealing, a top business executive faces a stiff penalty after a wild night you won‘t believe. Now this high roller is in even more trouble. We‘ll explain why LIVE AND DIRECT.
COSBY: This surveillance video captured the nation‘s attention, 11-year-old Carlie Brucia is seen in this video with the man police say abducted, raped and murdered her. Joseph P. Smith is about to stand trial for Carlie‘s abduction and murder. Jury selection for the trial is now underway. But given the intense media coverage of this case, can Joseph Smith get a fair trial?
Joining me now live is jury consultant Jo-Ellan Dimitrius who also helped pick the jury in the Samantha Runnion case, the little girl from California who was kidnapped and brutally murdered back in 2002. And also with us is Erin Runnion, Samantha‘s mother.
Jo-Ellan, let me start with you. Do you think this guy can get a fair trial?
JO-ELLAN DIMITRIUS, JURY CONSULTANT: I think it‘s going to be really hard for him to get a fair trial and I think from the defense perspective, what they‘re looking at is just basically saving his life. The defense has to make a decision, can they save his life ultimately in the guilt phase or in the penalty phase and based on I think this video and the fact that there‘s a verbal confession, it‘s going to be pretty tough to find people who are going to be open to considering some other alternative for this particular video.
COSBY: Yes, what kind of a person are you looking for on a case like this? You know it‘s interesting in the Michael Jackson case, I remember some of the folks who were working on that were saying they‘re looking for someone who is anti-government, not necessarily a woman or a man. Is there a type of person you‘re looking for in this case?
DIMITRIUS: Well I think first and foremost, you‘re looking for people that haven‘t preformed an opinion about the case based on what has been out there disseminated by the media. Secondly, we know in these types of cases and this is certainly true in Samantha‘s case as well that those individuals, the perspective jurors who have been themselves victims or their families have been victims in some of sort of sexual abuse are generally very badgers for the defense.
So generally what the defense is trying to do is to deselect from, you know, those types of individuals. I think it‘s really hard in these types of cases to say that there‘s a particular type of group that‘s going to be the best possible scenario for the defense.
COSBY: And it‘s such an emotional case. And Erin, boy, you know that all too well. What was it like for you sitting there you know looking at the face of this man who murdered your beautiful 5-year-old daughter?
ERIN RUNNION, SAMANTHA RUNNION‘S MOTHER: It—that‘s a very hard question to answer. It‘s pretty indescribable. You go through a whole gamut of emotions as you sit there. In the beginning, I was sick, literally nauseous almost every day. And I finally got to where I found a mental place where I could feel empowered and just—I just decided he had to face me. That that‘s really what this was about, was he should have to face me every day and think about what he did every day for the rest of his life.
COSBY: You bet, and I know that you were very passionate and Cory, I want to show some comments that you made during the trial. Here are some remarks that you made.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUNNION: You don‘t deserve a place in my family‘s history and so I want you to live. I want to you disappear into the abyss of a lifetime in prison where no one will remember you, no one will pray for and no one will care when you die.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: You know Erin, unfortunately another family has to go through this. It‘s so tragic. What advice do you have for Carlie Brucia‘s family?
RUNNION: My advice really is to keep Carlie‘s—what‘s best for Carlie, for her memory, for the integrity of her memory, at the forefront of their minds, because this is a brutal process to sit through. And it tears you up that it has to be so objective and that they desensitize all of the evidence. They just pull away the impact to the victim and their family is mitigated as much as possible throughout the whole process and that‘s a very painful thing to sit through.
My advice really, what I did, all I can speak to is my own experience and what I did, I took notes. I wrote down everything so that I could vent on paper. So that I could just sit there and, you know, get all of my frustrations out on paper rather than screaming or making faces that the defense could then point to as possibly influencing something. Take—write it down. Write it down, because you‘ve got to be able to vent it and everybody in the family will process the whole experience very differently.
COSBY: I bet. You know and real quick, Jo-Ellan, how long do you think the jury selection at this stage is going to last for this case?
DIMITRIUS: My guess would be if the juror is given or excuse me, if the judge is giving the juror a questionnaire, by the time that‘s analyzed and voir dire takes place, I think we‘re probably looking at least two weeks.
COSBY: All right. Jo-Ellan, thank you very much, one of the best in the business on this. And Erin, thank you very much for being here and offering some prayers and some thoughts for this other family too. Thank you both very much.
DIMITRIUS: Thank you.
COSBY: Now a mother who was almost killed for her fetus is now testifying against the woman accused of attacking her. Valerie Oskin is now telling prosecutors what she remembers that shocking—about that shocking attack, which took place nearly two weeks ago. Remember we were talking about that a lot.
Joining us now live on the phone is Armstrong County, Pennsylvania District Attorney Scott Andreassi. Mr. Andreassi, what did Valerie Oskin tell you about this?
SCOTT ANDREASSI, D.A., ARMSTRONG COUNTY (via phone): Hi Rita. We interviewed—actually we took her deposition yesterday. It lasted approximately 40 minutes and what she told us was what she told the state police initially that she recalled being attacked in her trailer. She doesn‘t remember by whom because it was from back. She recalls waking up in her trailer the next morning. She walked out of her trailer and that‘s when she first came in contact with who we believe was her attacker, Peggy Jo Conner and her landlady Ms. Betty Feberman (ph).
COSBY: Does she remember the instrument? Was it a baseball bat?
Then I also heard something about a crowbar?
ANDREASSI: Well there were actually two different instruments. The baseball bat we believe was the instrument used to attack her in her own trailer. The crowbar we believe was used to attack her in the wooded area.
COSBY: Does she remember the young boy, that teenage boy who thank goodness just happened to stumble upon the scene?
ANDREASSI: Yes, she recalls seeing him come onto the scene. She recalls him saying something, but she can‘t remember what it was. She recalls his father offering her a blanket and then her memory fades at that point until she regains it again two days later in the hospital.
COSBY: And real quick, Peggy Jo Conner, this is the woman accused of it. She‘s changed her story—you know story so many times as to where she was (INAUDIBLE). Has she finally admitted to what happened?
ANDREASSI: She‘s made statements that clearly implicate herself and that will be part of our case.
COSBY: And real quick, how is Valerie doing?
ANDREASSI: She‘s doing wonderfully. It truly is a miracle and she‘s doing remarkably well as expected.
COSBY: Mr. Andreassi, thank you. I‘m glad to hear that. Thank you very much.
And still ahead right here on LIVE AND DIRECT, new troubles for ice queen Tonya Harding. The skater turns the (INAUDIBLE) latest fight, leads to a run-in with the law. Wait until you hear what she told police.
Plus, a strip club CEO, a top business executive, winds up in hot water after an alleged wild night out in a gentlemen‘s club and a price tag you will not believe and now he‘s in even more hot water. That‘s coming up next.
COSBY: Well, the CEO who spent almost $250,000 at a New York strip club has now been temporarily stripped of his own office. SAVVIS chairman Robert McCormick has been put on unpaid leave from his Missouri company after being sued for the money by American Express. The credit card company wants its money despite McCormick‘s refusal to pay the bill on his corporate card.
Joining me now from McCormick‘s hometown of St. Louis is Charlie Brennan from KMOX Radio. You know, Charlie, why the change of heart for SAVVIS?
CHARLIE BRENNAN, KMOX RADIO: Why the change of heart for SAVVIS?
COSBY: ... I mean look, now they put him on unpaid leave. I mean this case happened a bit ago.
BRENNAN: Yes. Well I think that even if it‘s $20,000, which the company says is the amount spent that night, it‘s probably against corporate policy. So forget the $241,000 for one moment. Twenty thousand dollars is probably beyond what SAVVIS, which hasn‘t made money any year except one, 1996 in the third quarter, lost $13 million. I don‘t think they want their employees spending that kind of money.
COSBY: Yes, but you know it seems a bit of a turn of heart, though, Charlie. Let me show a comment. At first it seemed that, you know, that they were standing by McCormick.
It says Mr. McCormick did not submit the charges in question to SAVVIS for reimbursement. SAVVIS has not made any payment to American Express related to the charges. SAVVIS is working with legal counsel to resolve the claim and protect the interests of SAVVIS, the shareholders, customers and partners. Does it seem that also maybe some of the media attention has put a little pressure on them?
BRENNAN: Yes, I bet so. After all, if you are a shareholder at Savvis, and your shares are now worth 60 cents a piece, you wouldn‘t want your CEO spending $20,000 of your money. I mean, this was on the corporate credit card.
And, you know, it‘s possible there was fraud here, but, even if there wasn‘t, he says that he spent $20,000. And a CEO for a company that‘s losing money just shouldn‘t be doing that.
COSBY: Good point. Now, what‘s the reaction in St. Louis, too, in the city?
BRENNAN: Well, you know, of course, people are astounded. One guy called me, though, and he said that he, in fact, did go to Scores and was charged—he said he spent $21,000. But they ran his credit card through twice and charged him $42,000.
So I think that that, along with some of the other allegations and the investigations with the New York district attorney‘s office, I think that there‘s some questions to be raised about this establishment.
COSBY: And that‘s interesting, and especially if it goes in. My other question is on McCormick. He‘s know that he‘s now on unpaid leave. Is there a chance that he‘s going to step aside, do something on his own?
BRENNAN: It‘s hard to say. You know, who knows? I think he‘s going to try and make the case right now that one guy with two others couldn‘t possibly spend $241,000 in one evening.
I mean, even if you had dancers at $4,000 an hour, you‘d have to have more than 50 of them. If you bought champagne—I mean, how many bottles of champagne can three guys drink? Maybe six. At $3,000 a bottle, that‘s $18,000.
COSBY: Well, we‘ll find out how many bottles of champagne some guys can drink in just a second, Charlie. Thank you. I‘ve got an interesting guest coming up.
Joining me now live from the world‘s largest strip club is the owner of Sapphire Gentlemen‘s Club, Delores Eliades. And also here with me in the studio is Chuck Zito. You probably remember him best from his hit HBO show, “Oz.” He also loves to visit Scores.
Delores, let me start with you. How many bottles of champagne can these guys have?
DELORES ELIADES, OWNER, SAPPHIRE GENTLEMEN‘S CLUB: Well, I don‘t think it‘s anywhere close to six. I mean, the average customer probably has a bottle or two of champagne.
COSBY: Never to the amount—have you ever had anybody has come close to the $241,000 tab?
ELIADES: I wish, but we never have had.
COSBY: What‘s the highest you‘ve had?
ELIADES: I think that the highest reasonably is $10,000 or $12,000 by a customer in an evening.
COSBY: And that‘s the highest? And you run sort of—this is the top sort of gentlemen‘s club. That‘s the highest, is a five-figure amount?
ELIADES: That‘s the highest.
COSBY: Let me bring in Chuck. Chuck, by the way, right before the break, you and I were talking about this case in Bangladesh. My executive producer, Angie Dorway (ph), she figured it out, $129,000. And this was the husband of a wife who was a diplomat. The wife was a diplomat at the U.N.
CHUCK ZITO, ACTOR AND SCORES PATRON: Right.
COSBY: Bangladesh, they spent $129,000 on this one. This was the husband.
ZITO: That‘s what I read, also.
COSBY: You remember. You and I were talking about this.
You have been to Scores quite a bit?
ZITO: Quite a bit.
COSBY: You go with a lot of actors, go with a lot of celebrities.
COSBY: What‘s the highest amount that anyone has paid when you‘ve been with them, that you‘ve heard of?
ZITO: You‘ve got to realize, when I go with actors, everything is comped to them.
COSBY: It‘s free?
ZITO: Just because of who they are, and they just—they go there just to have a good time. But I‘ve never seen anybody, of course, you know, throw that kind of money down.
COSBY: You know, it‘s amazing. We did sort of a—sort of what it would be if it was $241,000. You‘re going to laugh when you see this. And I‘m sure Delores is going to get a kick out of this.
Thirty bottles of champagne—say they cost—this is the ultra, ultra kind -- $3,200 each; 350 martinis at $22 each; 750 shots at $17.50 each; 850 bottles of water at $9 each; 2,536 lap dances at $20 each; and 65 private rooms at $1,000 each.
You know, Chuck, based on all of this, I mean, is that impossible in one night? This guy claims he was with three other people only.
ZITO: He was with three other people. That‘s what I heard. I only know what I‘ve read. I mean, I can‘t speak for him or Scores. I‘m not a representation of Scores.
But I do know that what I‘ve read, he said he was paying the girls, anywhere from $5,000 $10,000 each, tipping them. I wish I knew that. I would have gotten a wig and a dress, and I would have danced for this guy.
COSBY: You would have danced for him? You would have been one of the lap dances that night, huh?
COSBY: Delores, one of the things that we heard in this—it‘s a great line, Chuck—that one of the funny things that we were hearing, they do these checks. And they have to, obviously, to be responsible, if the amount goes over $10,000.
That they were claiming that what they do is, they do fingerprints, they do checks. They make you sort of sign a waiver saying you are aware that you‘re signing x amount of money. Do you do any checks to guarantee that there‘s not a dispute like this between $241,000 and $20,000, Delores?
ELIADES: Well, yes, so far, we do do checks. But we do them on lower amounts of money. We do them anything over $50. So you‘re constantly trying to make sure that that doesn‘t happen with the customer and that they‘re aware of what‘s going on.
COSBY: You know, Chuck, why do you like Scores so much? Why do folks go there?
ZITO: I do one thing, that they do do the checks. I think it‘s for every $10,000, they call in and make sure the card‘s legit. And not only that, I think other clubs—I frequent in Las Vegas all the time and...
COSBY: A different one? Do you go Delores‘ club?
ZITO: I think I went there once actually.
COSBY: Yes, how was Delores‘s club, pretty good?
ZITO: I went there. But I go to...
COSBY: A variety of different ones out there?
ZITO: ... a variety of different ones out there.
COSBY: Why do you go to these clubs? What is the intrigue, especially to be CEOs and high-rollers?
ZITO: What you‘ve got to realize, I don‘t even drink. I never drank in my life. I don‘t smoke. I never took a drug in my life. But I go there and just—I go with other actors.
And we just pass the time, especially if you‘re in Vegas. Where else are you going to go except if you‘re a big high-roller? You stay at the hotels and you gamble. But we go to, you know, different places out there, so...
COSBY: Delores, how is the image for these clubs? You know, with this new—sometimes when stories happen like this, whether they‘re scandals or not, do you think you‘re going to see more customers at your place?
ELIADES: Well, you know, hopefully it translates into more customers, but, you know, they say any publicity is good publicity. But it‘s very sad when this happens to people, because I think people go in expecting to have a good time. And they go in expecting that they‘re going to spend a little bit of money and they don‘t want to be surprised at the end of the night that they feel they‘ve been taken for a ride.
ZITO: But I‘ve also seen, like—the Crazy Horse, too, is the one I go to a lot out there. And I see them doing the same thing, fingerprinting people, making sure the card is theirs. They ask for a photo I.D.
And they also do that at Scores. I‘ve seen that, where customers come in and—like I said, every $10,000, they check, they call and make sure the card is OK, and they approve the card. So...
COSBY: But if you‘re with Chuck Zito, it‘s free. Is that...
ZITO: Well, I bring a lot of the actors there. So a lot of the actors do get comped. But, like, people like Howard Stern, he gives (INAUDIBLE) worth of publicity. I mean, so he gets...
COSBY: Right, exactly. They get a lot in return.
ZITO: He gets comped. And anybody I‘ve brought, Pamela Anderson, and Charlie Sheen, and Sean Penn, and people like that who come with me, of course, everything‘s, you know, on me. And I get comped, so...
COSBY: Well, it sounds like you‘re a fun party guy, Chuck.
ZITO: I try to have a good time.
COSBY: Thank you so much for being with us.
And, Delores, thank you very much, too. We appreciate both of you being here tonight.
And onto another crazy scandal. Former figure skater Tonya Harding is at it again.
Did you know about this, Chuck?
COSBY: This time, a man she described as her boyfriend has been charged with assaulting her inside her own home. Christopher Nolan told police that Harding threw him down and bit his finger while they were fighting on Sunday.
And joining me now live is her former boxing promoter, Damon Feldman.
Damon, before—have you met Tonya at all, Chuck?
COSBY: You have? I had a feeling you did. Where did you meet her?
ZITO: Actually, I met her—we were doing a show this weekend, actually. I think she‘s supposed to be there, at in the Chiller Theater in New Jersey right here at the Meadowlands.
COSBY: We‘ll have to catch up with her.
ZITO: I think she‘s there. She‘s one of the guests.
COSBY: Oh, is she?
Well, Damon, now you hear that she‘s one of the guests.
DAMON FELDMAN, HARDING‘S FORMER BOXING PROMOTER: That‘s something, Rita.
COSBY: That if she‘s out of this whole issue. How is she with you?
FELDMAN: Oh, she‘s a crazy—but I want to tell you something really fast. It‘s really cool to see Chuck Zito, because I was always trying to get in touch with him to maybe do a celebrity boxing match. It‘s really great to see him.
ZITO: Thank you.
FELDMAN: Any way—definitely, Chuck. I know you‘re a good guy.
Prince Marketing, anyway...
COSBY: Are you trying to hook up Tonya Harding and Chuck.
FELDMAN: No, Chuck‘s a good guy. I want to get him involved.
ZITO: With who, Tonya Harding?
COSBY: He wants to know, is it with Tonya Harding or not?
FELDMAN: Well, I‘ll get somebody else for you, Chuck. But I love your background. We‘ll get in touch with Prince about you guys.
Anyway, Tonya Harding was, Rita—I‘ll tell you what. When I dealt with her—I had her in Philadelphia. We drew 1,000 people in a snowstorm. I promoted several fights, from Bernard Hopkins, to Tonya Harding, to different, other personalities.
And having her drew a big crowd in Philadelphia. I took her to Miami. She took on the drag queen of Miami. And it was a big deal out there. It was spring break for every kids in college.
COSBY: What is she like, Damon? I mean, what is she like? I mean, is she violent? I mean, she always seems to be getting in all of these fights.
FELDMAN: It‘s crazy, because I just—I‘ve got to tell you something a little later in the segment. She‘s just what you think of her with Kerrigan. Even though I was trying to make her and Kerrigan recently, but it just never materialized after me and her had the falling out in Miami.
She‘s a very, very rude person. And she‘ll give you that fake, “Hi, how are you?” nice stuff, but when she comes down to it, she is just what she did with the Kerrigan, a real piece of garbage. And I‘m being flat out about it.
COSBY: Well, I love this quote that you said, Damon. You told one of our producers before the show, quote, “I don‘t hit women or Tonya Harding.”
FELDMAN: Yes, I wouldn‘t...
COSBY: So I think that sort of expresses your feelings about her.
ZITO: Did she bring a tire iron into the ring?
FELDMAN: Hey, Chuck, it‘s funny you say that, because I‘m going to tell you something. When she—I got to tell you what happened in Florida. A thousand tickets sold the day before—the state commission, we had the press conference, a million people. Everybody was out there hyped up about this.
The state commission cancelled the event because Harding was a professional and the drag queen wasn‘t. So I said, “Tonya, could you at least save the show? There‘s 1,000 tickets. So we do a wrestling match.” She storms up at me. She says, “If you ever say something like that again, I‘m no side show. I‘ll punch you in the mouth.”
I said, “If you‘re going to punch me, I‘ll throw you over the railing.” And that‘s when the state—all the security came up and broke it up. And it was a mess.
But, Chuck, what I was saying—and, Rita, when you said tire iron, that‘s all I was thinking about, because I was hoping she wasn‘t going to crack my teeth with it and chip my teeth. Then I might have killed her, so...
COSBY: Sounds like a rough character. Well, if I‘m ever around her, I‘m going to hire both of you guys to protect me, all right?
Damon, thank you very much.
FELDMAN: I had a good time. Thanks a lot.
Chuck Zito, you‘re terrific.
ZITO: Thank you very much. Pleasure, pleasure.
COSBY: Been great to have both of you guys here. Thank you very much.
And still ahead, everybody, the CIA leak, it all centers around the undercovering of agent‘s identity. Now the CIA‘s masters of disguise leak their own secrets. You‘re not going to believe the lengths that they go to, to stay undercover in some of the world‘s most dangerous missions.
Plus, a very special tribute to the fallen troops in Iraq on a night that marks a sad milestone in the war. Country superstar Lee Greenwood is going to be coming up soon. He‘s going to be with us in the studio. You‘ve got to stick around for this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are documents that directly contradict the public statement of the vice president of the United States.
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Reports. The vice president, like the president, is a straight-forward, plain-spoken person.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Well, as we wait for any possible indictments on the CIA leak investigation, all eyes are now on the vice president. The “New York Times” is reporting that Dick Cheney may have told his chief of staff, Scooter Libby, about the identity of Valerie Plame.
The undercover agent is the wife of former Ambassador and Bush administration critic Joe Wilson. The issue now, whether or not someone intentionally outed Plame.
Joining us tonight are the authors of the book “Spy Dust.” Tony and Jonna Mendez are both former chiefs of disguise for the CIA.
And, Tony, I want to start with you, because I think it‘s really amazing. I want to show a picture. This is sort of you as who you are and you in disguise. You look like a homeless guy. This is amazing. How much work does it take, Tony, to get to that point?
TONY MENDEZ, FORMER CIA CHIEF OF DISGUISE: Actually, it takes about 40 years to learn what not to do and, you know, about 15 minutes to get it done. So it all has to be engineered so that it‘s very quick.
COSBY: You know, you talk about sort of that fine dance. I would imagine it‘s not just, you know, the appearance, it‘s also just carrying the mannerisms. That takes a long time to get down, right?
T. MENDEZ: Absolutely. It‘s actually—the facial oval is about 10 percent of it. The whole package, and the demeanor, and the way you walk, and so forth, are very important.
COSBY: Why is it critical to keep that disguise, Tony?
T. MENDEZ: Well, in order to do anything like spying, or trafficking or, you know, other illicit activity, you‘ve got to be able to move in and out of the area that you‘re going to do the operations. You‘ve got to do that clandestinely. You‘ve got to do that without being noticed.
And, you know, and Jonna, yours is really incredible. I want to show the picture of you, you know, as you are, and this is as you were a couple of years ago, and here you are on the other side of the screen dressed as a guy. How long did that take?
JONNA MENDEZ, FORMER CIA CHIEF OF DISGUISE: That disguise was nothing really more than a baseball hat, a moustache that I‘d been wearing on my wrist all day. It was really about that cigar.
When I put the cigar in my mouth and actually lit it, everyone around me just assumed I was a man and they all walked away. We were actually being followed by the FBI in an exercise when this disguise was used. And the FBI lost me.
COSBY: Did anyone recognize you, even people who love you and people close to you?
J. MENDEZ: Absolutely not.
COSBY: Nobody did?
J. MENDEZ: No. It‘s a little bit of acting skills. It‘s a lot of suggesting to the viewer that you are a man. And if you suggest it in several different ways, they‘ll assume it.
COSBY: Jonna, did you ever worry about being outed in the field? Did you ever worry about someone saying, you know, “Hey, look, you‘re not a guy?”
J. MENDEZ: There were a lot of times in my career where I was in areas that I would not have wanted to have my identity known, but it never happened. It doesn‘t happen that frequently. This thing with Valerie Plame, I think, is an aberration.
COSBY: You know, Jonna and Tony, did either of you ever meet Valerie or her husband, Joe Wilson?
T. MENDEZ: Well, we met Joe Wilson the day the story broke.
J. MENDEZ: We were in the green room.
T. MENDEZ: We were actually preceding him on air, talking about the gravity of the situation. But we have not met Valerie. I haven‘t, any way.
COSBY: Yes. And, Tony, how grave do you think it is, the outing of an agent?
T. MENDEZ: Well, you know, it‘s hard to get the genie back in the bottle once it‘s let out. And you put a lot of time and effort in building a cover and living it. And the reason for it is to keep your sources alive, and well, and in place, and making sure that they‘re not compromised. It‘s a life-and-death kind of activity. And there‘s no life lines.
COSBY: Absolutely. And, before I go, Jonna and Tony, is this what you really look like, or are you under disguise right now?
T. MENDEZ: Actually, she is me.
J. MENDEZ: Yes, we tell people that we‘re switched a lot.
COSBY: Very impressive, both of you. Thank you very much. And we really appreciate you sharing your story with us.
T. MENDEZ: Thank you, Rita.
J. MENDEZ: Thanks, Rita.
COSBY: And still ahead on LIVE & DIRECT, a special tribute to fallen troops in Iraq. It‘s a day that marks a sad milestone in the war. But joining us live is country singer and big American patriot Lee Greenwood. He‘s going to be with us next to tell us what he‘s doing to help our men and women fighting for freedom.
COSBY: Well, today, as we hear that beautiful patriotic song, unfortunately it marks a very, very sad milestone; 2,000 U.S. soldiers now dead in Iraq, that milestone coming today.
It‘s a milestone in the two-and-a-half-year-long war. And now, country singer Lee Greenwood is stepping up to the plate to help out American families, as he always has, this time those of fallen soldiers. And he joins me right here in our studio in his first primetime interview about his project.
Lee, it‘s great to have you here. You were always, I think, just such a true-blue American patriot, as your song, you know, says. But you are through and through. I‘ve had the pleasure of getting to know you over the years.
LEE GREENWOOD, SINGER-SONGWRITER: Thank you.
COSBY: And I know, you and I were talking before the show, when you heard about 2,000 dead, it hits a chord.
GREENWOOD: Well, it‘s a benchmark. And it‘s a very sad benchmark. You know, when we go to our USO tours—and last year it was our 16th tour to the Middle East, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, and points over there—everybody is carrying a gun. It‘s a war zone.
And it really makes you sad when you hear somebody‘s fell, you know? I do 140 shows probably on the road this year. And every show, I‘ll guarantee you, I‘ll see a Gold Star mother. They‘ll introduce me to the daughter-in-law, who may have one, two, three, four children, and no way to take care of them. And it‘s just such a—it kills you, just breaks your heart.
COSBY: Well, I know one of the things you‘re planning on doing to make difference are these coins. We can show a close-up of these coins, which I think is so great.
Tell us about the background. These are from—these are Saddam‘s regime.
GREENWOOD: These are decommissioned, uncirculated coins from Saddam Hussein‘s regime, which, 10 years later, of course, they were discovered after we went into—coalition forces went into Basra, along with some of the other cities.
And it was a British mission to actually take the cash. And they took it out of the banks and actually put it into a safe place, to shoot it back into the Iraqi economy, because it was pretty sagging. And they didn‘t know what to necessarily do with the coins.
But there were two British soldiers who really made an impact. And this one corporal, you know, said to this captain—Corporal Brannigan (ph) was his name—“Captain McGuinness (ph),” he said, “we can actually sell these coins and do something good here in Basra. And that would be to build an orphanage for these poor kids.” There‘s like 150-200 5-year-olds and less, you know, that are orphaned. And also, there was a commonwealth grave yard there that had been there since World War I and World War II.
COSBY: And in fact, we‘re looking at a bag. These are all the coins.
I mean, it‘s incredible.
GREENWOOD: That‘s the (INAUDIBLE) carrier.
COSBY: I mean, this is amazing.
GREENWOOD: There‘s 70,000 coins. And you know what they did? You know what a bucket brigade is? When they—well, in order to get them out of the banks and into these iso-carriers, they actually hand-carry them on a bucket brigade and got them into these iso-carriers.
But then, in order to get them to sign them in London, they had the British government to sign off. The commonwealth graveyard was the catalyst for that.
They got them to Kuwait, which took almost a year, because the Kuwaiti government was very concerned about getting their share. But then, if you melted them all down, you probably wouldn‘t get $5,000.
So they said, “Well, OK. We‘ll finally let them go.” And the London company, the metals company, took charge of those. They presented a check to a sheik in Basra and they built the orphanage. Now, that‘s closed the door on that.
They put the coins on the open market, in order to be sold in Hong Kong at a coin show. A Chattanooga company, oddly enough, halfway around the world—it‘s how the Internet is so strong—they buy the whole lot of them.
And as they‘re being shipped to the United States, two great Americans in Charlotte, North Carolina, get wind of this. They know about this fund that serves fallen soldiers. And so, they said, “You know, let‘s go look at the coins. Maybe we can serve a higher calling here.”
They buy the lot. They buy 6,000 first and put a hold on the rest.
They finally decide to buy the lot. They put them in these shadow boxes.
There‘s a one-coin, a two-coin, and a four-coin set.
COSBY: And 25 percent of the proceeds go directly to the families, right?
GREENWOOD: It‘s right off the top.
COSBY: Which is amazing.
GREENWOOD: It‘s right off the top. You know, there‘s no—I can‘t tell you how much money they spent to get them to this point, but that‘s not the issue for them. They want to help these families that have lost somebody.
COSBY: Real quickly, we‘ve got a little bit of time left, you travel. You‘ve been all over the Middle East. You tell me you hope to maybe go to Iraq in a few months. What touches you when you hear these stories from these soldiers, and why is it so critical to help these families?
GREENWOOD: Well, you know, I just, interesting enough, before we came on stage, the guys are tracking the sales of these. And they‘re already doing very well. And there‘s already been checks—if you go to the web site, productsforgood.com...
COSBY: And we‘re looking at the number, too, and make sure you call that number, too, on the screen there.
GREENWOOD: You can actually get a report of some of the things that are going down and how the money is already been into the hands of the Operation Family Fund, who, by the way, the CEO, Mike Cash, has two sons, one in Iraq, one just come back from Iraq.
Dr. Laura is involved in this, has money in herself. She has a son in boot camp. So, you know, I see these soldiers‘ faces and I see the mothers. We need to do this. Responsible citizens have to have these.
COSBY: God bless you. And I‘m proud to be an American every time I see you, Lee Greenwood.
GREENWOOD: Thanks, Rita.
COSBY: Keep up the great work.
And, everybody, you saw the number on the screen, 877-444-4051. Please be sure to help these families. Do whatever you can. We‘ll be right back.
COSBY: And that‘s it for LIVE & DIRECT tonight. I‘m Rita Cosby.
“SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY” starts right now—Joe?
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
Copy: Content and programming copyright 2005 NBC. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Transcription Copyright 2005 Voxant, Inc. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. No license is granted to the user of this material other than for research. User may not reproduce or redistribute the material except for user‘s personal or internal use and, in such case, only one copy may be printed, nor shall user use any material for commercial purposes or in any fashion that may infringe upon NBC and Voxant, Inc.‘s copyright or other proprietary rights or interests in the material. This is not a legal transcript for purposes of litigation.