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CHUCK TODD:

This Sunday, immigration fight. President Trump ups the stakes, saying he may release migrants to sanctuary cities…

PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

They're always saying they have open arms. Let's see if they have open arms.

CHUCK TODD:

…taunting states, like California, that oppose his immigration policies…

PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

We'll give them more people. We can give them a lot. We can give them an unlimited supply.

CHUCK TODD:

…and reportedly urging Homeland Security to close the border, even as he publicly said he wouldn't.

SPEAKER NANCY PELOSI:

It's just another notion that is unworthy of the presidency of the United States.

CHUCK TODD:

Plus, spy games. When Attorney General Bill Barr makes this claim without offering evidence…

SEN. JEANNE SHAHEEN:

You're not suggesting, though, that spying occurred.

ATTORNEY GENERAL BILL BARR:

Spying did occur. Yes, I think spying did occur.

CHUCK TODD:

…he pleases his new boss…

PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I think what he said was absolutely true. There was absolutely spying into my campaign.

CHUCK TODD:

…and infuriates some law enforcement professionals…

JAMES COMEY:

I really don't know what he's talking about, when he talks about spying on the campaign.

CHUCK TODD:

…and Democrats.

SEN. MAZIE HIRONO:

When Barr opened his mouth, Trump's words came tumbling out.

CHUCK TODD:

My guest this morning, White House counselor Kellyanne Conway. Also, the candidate confronting climate change.

GOV. JAY INSLEE:

This is our moment to put the greatest threat to our existence at the very top of the nation's agenda.

CHUCK TODD:

This morning, I'll interview Democratic presidential hopeful Governor Jay Inslee of Washington. Joining me for insight and analysis are NBC News Capitol Hill correspondent Kasie Hunt; Washington Post columnist Eugene Robinson; Danielle Pletka of the American Enterprise Institute; and New YorkTimes columnist David Brooks. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.

ANNOUNCER:

From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.

CHUCK TODD:

Good Sunday morning. When Donald Trump was elected, many people expected or hoped, perhaps, that the presidency would change him. It didn't. Instead, he's changing the presidency. Two examples this week of Mr. Trump flouting convention illustrate his paradigm-shifting first term. One, unhappy that his first attorney general, Jeff Sessions, did not protect him from the Mueller investigation, Mr. Trump fired him and replaced him with Bill Barr, who, on Wednesday, gave him what Sessions never would, legitimacy to his most-controversial talking point on the Russian-interference investigation, that his campaign had been, quote, "spied on." Two, unhappy that the Department of Homeland Security has often resisted his get-tough and sometimes-illegal border proposals, Mr. Trump sacked DHS's leadership, axing four top officials, then said he was considering sending migrants at the border into so-called sanctuary cities, where his immigration policies are most unpopular. What is clear is that Mr. Trump is trying to change the presidency or, at least, his presidency and reshape it in his own image. What is less clear is if he really wants to change the situation at the border or to leverage it for his own political gain.

PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

We're bringing out what's happening with our border.

CHUCK TODD:

For President Trump, an asylum crisis on the southern border has become a political opportunity.

PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I think they're going to pay a very big price in 2020, for all of the things, whether it's the fake witch hunt that they start up or whether it's a situation like this.

CHUCK TODD:

In a month dominated by the fight over how much of Robert Mueller's report will be released to the public, the president has leaned into the border crisis. On Friday, he tweeted, "We are indeed, as reported, giving strong considerations to placing illegal immigrants in sanctuary cities only.

PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

They want more people in their sanctuary cities, well, we'll give them more people. We can give them a lot. We can give them an unlimited supply. And let's see if they're so happy.

CHUCK TODD:

The President's threat came just hours after administration officials said the plan was rejected back in February, because it was, in the words of one former official, so illegal.

SPEAKER NANCY PELOSI:

It's just another notion that is unworthy of the presidency of the United States and disrespectful of the challenges that we face as a country, as a people, to address who we are, a nation of immigrants.

CHUCK TODD:

The number of apprehensions on the southern border hit a 12-year high in March, dominated by families, over 53,000 parents and children. Immigration courts now have a backlog of more than 800,000 cases. Each one takes an average of 700 days to process. But instead of addressing the problem…

PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

They have to get rid of the whole asylum system, because it doesn't work. And frankly, we should get rid of judges.

CHUCK TODD:

…this week, those attacks got a rare public rebuke from a federal judge.

CARLTON WAYNE REEVES:

When politicians attack the courts, it's dangerous, political, and guilty of egregious overreach. You can hear the Klan's lawyers assailing officers of the court across the south.

CHUCK TODD:

Last month, the State Department announced it would be ending foreign aid to the three Central American countries where most of these migrants come from. And this week, Mr. Trump fired his ICE director and Homeland Security Secretary.

PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Frankly, there's only one person that's running it. You know who that is? It's me.

CHUCK TODD:

The firings are just the latest departures from a government the president is molding in his own image.

SEN. RON JOHNSON:

I'm concerned. I'm concerned of a growing void of leadership within the Department of Homeland Security.

CHUCK TODD:

According to the New York Times, last week, Mr. Trump urged Kevin McAleenan, now acting secretary of Homeland Security, to close the border entirely.

PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

Our country's full. We're full.

CHUCK TODD:

And on Tuesday, Trump's national security advisors gathered at the White House to discuss whether the military could be used to build tent city detention camps for migrants.

PRES. DONALD TRUMP:

I'm going to have to call up more military. But our military, don't forget, can't act like a military would act. Because if they got a little rough, everybody would go crazy.

CHUCK TODD:

And joining me now is counselor to President Trump, Kellyanne Conway. Ms. Conway, welcome back to Meet the Press.

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

Thank you, Chuck.

CHUCK TODD:

I want to start with this crisis at the southern border, in this respect. Does the president see this as an immigration crisis or as a refugee crisis, where we -- basically, our asylum system is under-resourced, under stress -- overstressed, overtaxed, due to what is a Central American refugee crisis?

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

Chuck, first, thanks for acknowledging that it is a crisis. Not so long ago, we had members of the mainstream media and the Democratic Party denying that that word should even be used. And no less a person than President Obama's Homeland Security director -- secretary excuse me, Jeh Johnson, has referred to it as a crisis several times. You can't look at the numbers and deny that we have a crisis. In our view, it's both a security crisis and a humanitarian crisis. We have 103,000 migrants either being apprehended or unable to come across the border just last month alone. And the flow is so different. For years, it was single males from Mexico who could be returned safely to their country of origin. Now, we have families, increasingly, family units from these three northern triangle countries, and unaccompanied children. Can you and I assure each other and everybody who's watching today that we know what happens to those minors once they are released into this country? Congress can fix this easily. All the time that they spend reacting to every single Donald Trump tweet or the president's statements, they can sit down and do three quick things. They can fix TVPRA, which, basically, is the Trafficking Victims Act, where it becomes a magnet for young children to be taken by the arm by an adult. And they know it's easier to come here. Number two, fix Flores. Flores is a judicial decision that's holding hostage our ability, as a nation, to just have a little bit more time to process these asylum claims. After 20 days, we must release children into the interior of this country. Number three, fix the asylum law, so that those who actually have a credible claim of asylum can have that processed faster. We just have too many people. And that's why the president is looking for more money, more resources, more technology, and help from some of these cities.

CHUCK TODD:

Everything you have said the president, I have not heard from the president, though. Like you have said he is not --

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

I'm here on his behalf.

CHUCK TODD:

I understand that. But he is saying he wants to get rid of asylum law. He wants to get rid of judges. Let me ask you this way --

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

Well, that's not completely fair --

CHUCK TODD:

Are you at all --

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

-- We just had new judges in our package, 75 new immigration judges. We need more.

CHUCK TODD:

He said, "Get rid of the judges."

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

No he saying --

CHUCK TODD:

What does that mean, then?

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

The president's saying, let's stop having one or two judges in this country make immigration law for an entire country. That's Congress' job --

CHUCK TODD:

No - no - no, wait --

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

At the retreat, did the Democrats even come up with an immigration plan?

CHUCK TODD:

Then -- then -- then --

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

What are they willing to do?

CHUCK TODD:

I'm not talking about the federal judges. I'm talking about immigration judges to deal with the asylum backlog. He wanted to get rid of the -- that is the implication. He was saying, "Get rid of those judges." Does he not want to have asylum judges, more of these judges to deal with this backlog?

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

We need more immigration judges. In fact, his 70-point immigration plan that he presented to Congress in October of 2017 includes more judges. And I believe even what Congress was willing to pass or did pass included 75 new immigration judges and all the support that would go with that, the support staff and the like, in addition to new technologies at the border. So those who vote for that, those who voted for H.R. 6, the largest one piece of legislation to combat our drug crisis in our nation's history, every Democrat running for president who's in the House or Senate voted for it, they've admitted we have a drug crisis at the border. That's where the meth and heroin, the cocaine, and the fentanyl are pouring over. So let's try to work together. But we have an un-serious Congress that is not, is not coming to the table. And the Republicans failed to do their job, when they were in charge, no doubt. And the Democrats, now, are failing to come together in the House. Let’s fix it.

CHUCK TODD:

But how is the president playing a constructive role here? Here's David French in the National Review, earlier this week. And this has to do with, sort of, the way, now, his critics respond to him. You talked about the tweets. "They're not alarmed by his bluster. They're amused. They mock him. His threats and tweets fuel the opposition and undermine his ability to make the deals he needs to make. He's testing the political utility of the opposite of Teddy Roosevelt's admonition, 'Speak softly and carry a big stick,' tweeting loudly and often carrying no real stick at all." Let's look at what the last four months have given us. He shut down the government, national emergency, "I'll shut the border," "I'm sending these migrants to sanctuary cities." What part of that is the same tone that you have had, which says, "We want to sit down. We want to have more judges. We want to try to solve this"? The president doesn't sound like somebody who wants to solve the crisis.

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

Well, for him, it's all of the above. It's everything you've just said. And he has asked for Congress, in his 70-point plan, to do everything from end the visa lottery system to chain migration. He was willing to do a deal on the Dreamers. It's false, when everybody says, "Oh, there was $25 million -- billion on the table by the Democrats, but the president walked away." That was what was allocated, not appropriated, and they know it. But in addition to that, the president has looked at many different options. Administratively, from the executive branch of the government, we've done a great deal of work. We need the legislature to step in. And we need the courts to do something like the Ninth Circuit did just on Friday, Chuck, which is at least give us some latitude on his Remain in Mexico policy. So many of the liberals want the, the illegal migrants to remain in America. Why not remain in Mexico, while your claims of asylum are being processed? This is something that our secretaries, our cabinet, and the president brokered with Mexico. It's safe passage for those, those families and unaccompanied minors to remain in Mexico, while their claims of asylum are being processed. But I think the, look --

CHUCK TODD:

But how is --

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

-- I think the rough rhetoric this week, you know, respectfully, came from the other side. You have this antisemitic congresswoman, who has been rebuked by members of her own party --

CHUCK TODD:

Woah, woah, woah, what’re you talking --

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

-- now saying something happened to someone.

CHUCK TODD:

This has nothing to do with immigration. You’re trying --

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

It does --

CHUCK TODD:

-- No, no, no, no.

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

It does.

CHUCK TODD:

I know what you're trying to do here. I’m going to go back here, why --

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

No it has to do with David French --

CHUCK TODD:

-- the president is trying to browbeat --

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

-- piece that you showed.

CHUCK TODD:

-- the Democrats. The president's trying to browbeat them to come over. That's no way to get a compromise. Even Mitch McConnell is saying, "Enough of this already." And the president keep --

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

But why don’t they come to the table. We'll meet them this afternoon, if they'd like to come to the White House --

CHUCK TODD:

Why don’t you invite them?

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

-- and talk about -- their invite -- the offer stands. The invitation is open. They were there several times, the leadership, as you know, during -- to avert a government shutdown and then during it, all on this issue.

CHUCK TODD:

But it's always his way or the highway. He never is sitting here saying --

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

I disagree.

CHUCK TODD:

Okay. I just -- what part of shutting down the government, "I'll do this," that's not how, that’s not how anybody would be coerced to saying, "Yeah, let's sit down and have a -- see if --

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

But the president’s --

CHUCK TODD:

-- we can come and reach, and reach common ground."

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

They are willing -- they are welcome to come. And I will tell you, the Problem Solvers Caucus did come. There's a great deal of frustration among some of the rank-and-file members who represent more-moderate districts and, frankly, who represent districts that Donald Trump won in 2016, for example. They're very frustrated. They've been to the White House. They talk to people like me, quietly, saying that they wish that the radical freshmen, who get all the magazine covers and all the ink and air time, I guess, they're very upset with the leadership today, though. Because overnight or yesterday, Congress -- Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib tweeted that she’s so tired of being -- they're so tired of being used to show that the party's diverse, and that they can't get a seat at the table, can't get their policy issues forward, something that was retweeted by Congresswoman Ilhan Omar.

CHUCK TODD:

You keep --

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

So I think there's trouble in Pelosi Paradise. But if she wants to fix immigration, she can come.

CHUCK TODD:

You keep trying to insert others --

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

Three quick things, the TVPRA, asylum --

CHUCK TODD:

You keep trying to do this thing. --

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

-- and --

CHUCK TODD:

I want to go back to, to how the president is, perhaps, making this situation worse.

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

-- Flores.

CHUCK TODD:

Here is the New York Times from Wednesday. "Perversely, the president's own anti-immigrant rhetoric has helped supercharge the pipeline from Honduras, Guatemala, and El Salvador. Smugglers, lately, have been buying radio ads in Central America, warning that Mr. Trump is about to shut down all immigration. 'If you ever wanted to go to the United States,' they say, 'go now.'" The president's words, these sort of cataclysmic words that he uses, "Shut down the border," and all this stuff, is actually being used to encourage more people to come.

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

By smugglers and coyotes, of course --

CHUCK TODD:

Yes, which is -- does the president have any --

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

-- who take these people's life savings and, sometimes, worse.

CHUCK TODD:

Well, will somebody tell the president he's doing this? Will somebody tell the president that his words are actually encouraging these coyotes to make money off of desperate people?

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

Well, the coyotes and smugglers do that anyway. You know that --

CHUCK TODD:

So why give them more material?

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

-- without anybody’s encouraging them -- no, no they’ve got plenty of material --

CHUCK TODD:

Why help them?

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

-- by lying to people. Chuck, you know that daughters the same age as ours, God forbid, are being pumped with birth control before they come here. We are forced to give them pregnancy tests, because we know how perilous that journey could be. My message to those, those mothers, and I'm one, of school-aged children, four of them, is don't come. It’s a treacherous, perilous journey with no guarantee --

CHUCK TODD:

Do you know what happens to them in Honduras?

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

There's no guarantee.

CHUCK TODD:

Do you know what happens to them in Honduras? Let me up this up here from -- In 2017, 41% of women and girls killed in Honduras showed signs of mutilation, disfigurement, and cruelty beyond what was needed to kill them, according to the Violence Observatory at the National Autonomous University of Honduras.” And in this story, there were some graphic descriptions that are 1,000 times worse that are not appropriate for Sunday morning. This is what they're escaping. This is why they're seeking asylum in the United States. How do you turn them away?

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

And when they present their -- and when they present their claims of asylum, as they did in past administrations, those claims are evaluated. And people do, they are granted asylum for credible asylum claims. What's happening, Chuck, is that you have those who are claiming asylum and should not be, back to my point. Fix Flores, fix TVPRA, and fix the asylum system, so that those credible claims can be processed expeditiously and fairly. But we need everybody's help. Congress cannot turn a blind eye to that. I know that they're, they’re still obsessed with the 2016 campaign and investigating it. They're obsessed with running for 2020 --

CHUCK TODD:

The president plays no role in sort of cutting back and actually presenting himself --

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

He’s made this a primary issue.

CHUCK TODD:

-- as somebody who wants to actually make a deal?

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

He's made this a top issue. I guarantee you.

CHUCK TODD:

For his 20 -- all he talks about it is through the prism of 2020. He talks about it all the time. He doesn't seem to talk about it by a guy who wants a solution.

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

No. Here we are, in 2019. He's willing to have them come to the table. But they need to be serious. Because the president in this country doesn't make the laws. He executes the laws. Congress has to come and give that fix to Flores, which was a court decision. They can, they can fix it. They can fix TVPRA. They can tweak it. They can fix the asylum laws. They need to get back to Washington, work as hard as the people who they represent work.

CHUCK TODD:

Let me ask it through a foreign-policy prism. Why is the president so concerned about the humanitarian crisis and the human rights in Venezuela but not in Honduras or Guatemala or El Salvador?

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

No, we are. And I'll tell you why --

CHUCK TODD:

But you cut off all this aid --

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

And I said to you almost a year ago here --

CHUCK TODD:

We're putting more -- we’re giving more money to try to help with humanitarian efforts in Venezuela. And you just cut off aid, almost completely, to the three -- to Honduras, Guatemala, and El Salvador. What's the difference?

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

Everybody sees what's happening in Venezuela and how quickly it's been fomenting. Maduro must go. We've made that very clear.

CHUCK TODD:

I just told you what was happening in Honduras.

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

Yes it’s pretty tragic.

CHUCK TODD:

It's pretty awful.

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

It's pretty awful, it is. And what's happening here, that these young girls are coming through, do we know, can we say, with confidence, we know what happens to them? We act like they're released into the interior of the U.S., and they definitely have a family member or a sponsor or a way of life and safety and save passage. Chuck, they don't. So many of them are trafficked. Some are murdered. Some are, some are treated -- mistreated wherever they go. We don't know what happens to them. Shouldn't we have a system where we know better who's here and where they are and what has come of it?

CHUCK TODD:

I think everybody seems to agree with --

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

The president --

CHUCK TODD:

-- something like that. But can there be --

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

Well, I don't know. We don't get that much help from the other side.

CHUCK TODD:

Let me ask you it this way. Can you treat this, sort of, as a temporary, like, emergency? So for instance, the president is threatening to ship migrants --

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

Yes. The president has used the word emergency and crisis --

CHUCK TODD:

All right, but believe it or not, I grew up in Miami, I'm well aware of this, if he actually asked for help from cities and states, I bet you these cities would say, "Sure. If you need to temporarily relocate people here, while they wait for their day with an asylum judge, okay." What's wrong with doing it that way? Why is it a browbeat?

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

He just recommended that. It wasn't a browbeat. It was taken that way. It was a presumptive --

CHUCK TODD:

How did he present it?

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

Excuse me. If they want to help, they can. And some mayors have come forward and said, "We would like to help."

CHUCK TODD:

I would assume they would.

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

Isn't the point of a sanctuary city to, to, to offer sanctuary to illegal aliens while they are being processed?

CHUCK TODD:

So this is a real plan. He is going to asking for -- Are you asking for mayors to call up the White House today and say, "Yes, send us your tired"?

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

Sure or they’re welcome to visit. I recently addressed the Conference of Mayors. I know others from the administration have. This issue was raised in terms of, how can we all work together on many crises of the day. Immigration is one of them. Opioids is another. Criminal justice reform is something else we talked about, workforce development. So certainly, we want to work with the nation's mayors. But if you look at a city like Philadelphia, you have a mayor there who won't share information with ICE anymore, which means that we don't even know who's there, why they're there, how long they're there. And you can't protect --

CHUCK TODD:

By the way, there's a circular illogic about this. If the president believes we're full, why does he want to help, basically, create a permanent way for these folks to stay in America?

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

Because the people are coming here anyway, as you know.

CHUCK TODD:

Okay.

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

So what I'm saying is 103,000 came. These are unprecedented numbers. Three short months ago, when the president addressed the nation in the primar -- the only primetime oval of his presidency, you had a response from Leader Schumer and Speaker Pelosi, where they said, "It's a lie that it's a crisis. It's a manufactured word." Now, people like you, like Jeh Johnson, respected people, are admitting it is a crisis. We do have an emergency. So what are the solutions? I've laid out simple solutions Congress can work on. I think the person who's running for the nomination, the Democrat, who comes up with an immigration plan, rather than a government takeover healthcare, like Medicare for all or Green New Deal, that person is going to distinguish himself or herself. Because right now, the two frontrunners for the Democrats, according to plan, right on schedule, are the two old, white, male, career politicians. Somebody who comes out with a plan on immigration, wants to work with the president ahead of time and not kick it into 2020 will prevail.

CHUCK TODD:

Was the president informed, in advance, of what was going to happen to Julian Assange?

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

Not to my knowledge. I certainly wasn't --

CHUCK TODD:

So he did not know, in advance, what was going to happen. The federal --

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

Not to my knowledge.

CHUCK TODD:

-- whatever deal was made with the U.K. and any of that stuff was from the State Department?

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

I'm sorry. I don't know. Because that's the State Department, the Department of Justice.

CHUCK TODD:

But you don't believe the president was briefed in advance.

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

I don't know, and I don't think so. And I just want to say one more thing. Having discussed this with him, after the fact, several times, the president believes that those who publish classified information should not do that. In other words, that goes for major publications that has done it as well --

CHUCK TODD:

So he thinks he should criminalize it?

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

Well, no, I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is, and remember, Julian Assange is not being indicted, because he was a journalist. He's being indicted, because he hacked, same thing with Private Manning. And so anybody who's publishing classified information, in our view, should think thrice before they do that because you can imperil folks. It’s also why -- I think it's part of why some of the redactions will come out in the Mueller report. You're protecting sources and methods.. You're protecting grand jury information. You're protecting third parties who haven't been indicted and, certainly, won't be impeached. I know they want to embarrass and harass the president, where they couldn't impeach and indict him. But -- and we'll see what happens with that.

CHUCK TODD:

I'm going to have to leave it there.

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

Thank you for having me, Chuck.

CHUCK TODD:

Kellyanne Conway, it's nice to have you, nice through discussion of immigration.

KELLYANNE CONWAY:

I'll see the Democrats at the White House later today. I look forward to it.

CHUCK TODD:

When we come back --

[BEGIN TAPE]

SEN. JEANNE SHAHEEN:

You're not suggesting, though, that spying occurred.

ATTORNEY GENERAL BILL BARR:

I don’t, well, I guess you could, I think spying did occur. Yes, I think spying did occur.

[END TAPE]

CHUCK TODD:

So what exactly did the attorney general, Bill Barr, mean when he said, "Spying on the Trump campaign occurred"? There’s more to that story, and that’s coming up next with the panel.

CHUCK TODD:

Welcome back, panel is here, Washington Post columnist Eugene Robinson, Danielle Pletka, the American Enterprise Institute, NBC News Capitol Hill correspondent and host of Kasie DC on MSNBC, Kasie Hunt. And New York Times columnist David Brooks, author of the new think The Second Mountain. I think it's going to take a third, fourth or fifth mountain if we're ever going to figure out the immigration solution. You wrote about that this week, David, in a way of just, like, I guess it's a version of enough is enough. You know, your Samuel L. Jackson Snakes on a Plane moment, "Ah!" You know, can't we-- I'm just not sure what conversation I had. That was a very-- Kellyanne Conway represented an administration, it looks like, that wants to do something, wants to do a deal. But her boss doesn't sound like somebody that wants to do a deal.

DAVID BROOKS:

Yeah, there's a magical fantasy land where we have a president who cares about solving other people's problems. And if we had that president, then we would expand the detention centers. We'd vet the kids in their home countries so they don't have to take the walk.

CHUCK TODD:

We'd probably ask mayors to take in some of these folks, right?

DAVID BROOKS:

We'd fix the release system so they're released in coordination with humanitarian agencies. We'd do what any mayor and governor would do. There's a problem here, let's fix the problem. But unfortunately, President Trump sees every problem as a chance for his own performative narcissism, as a chance for him to show what a man he is. And so everything becomes not a solution. Everything just becomes a pose, show business. And the upshot is he's tried to deter immigration through cruelty. And that's been a miserable failure. And that's why we have this problem.

CHUCK TODD:

You know, Kasie, it seems as if-- and you always wonder, "Oh boy, when are the Senate Republicans, going to get upset? Are they going to get nervous?" But the sacking of basically, the entire echelon of the Homeland Security Department-- and by the way, look at this. I'm going to put the listing of actings that we have going in this administration right now. And how many of them are actually connected to some form of border security or the border issue, especially what's happening at DHS. Do you get a sense, you know, with Senate Republicans, like when even Mitch McConnell says, "Ugh, we've got to have an adult conversation," something's afoot?

KASIE HUNT:

Mitch McConnell was, I think measured himself, kind of saying, "Okay, I'm open to this." I think, if anything, that also puts a little bit more heat on Democrats to try to come to the table, or it's designed to. I do think there's an increased amount of nervousness. Clearly, the White House wants to be able to do whatever the president wants to do, regardless of kind of some of the guardrails that Congress has put in place around these questions. I mean, it seems like that's a big part of the reason why the Homeland Security secretary in particular was sacked. But, you know, I think the absolute root of the problem here is that this president, every time he goes to Congress and says, "I want to solve X problem by doing Y thing," whatever Y is changes five or six times during the course of the negotiation. You know, Republicans have learned this lesson several times. You know, Democrats then had to learn it again, even though Republicans tried to tell them, "Hey, like, watch out. Like, this guy's not really a reliable negotiator." So how do you solve this problem if that's the case?

CHUCK TODD:

Would you accept any of the deal parameters that Kellyanne Conway laid out today?

EUGENE ROBINSON:

Look, you could have that conversation. And you could make a deal. But not with Donald Trump. You couldn't with a president who says, "Let's get rid of judges," you know? As David said, it is performative. It is showing what a tough guy he is. It is not finding solutions to problems. We're a country of 330 million people. The, you know, richest, most powerful country on earth. Yes, we can deal with 50,000, you know, people on the border. It's not that big a deal for us to handle that if we choose to handle that and handle it properly. We have laws that provide for asylum. Let's follow the law. You know, let's build the facilities and put the people in place and let's get it done.

DANIELLE PLETKA:

I'm not sure I agree with you about the fact that we can handle this. I do think this is a genuine crisis. And that's all the more reason why we need to adapt our laws, why we need to update, why we need to move ahead with some of the changes that Kellyanne Conway laid out very normally, I thought. But I want to talk about the president for a second because I think we reached a turning point in the last week in which, you know, feral marketing, reality TV guy Donald Trump actually widened the chasm between himself and proper governance in which where --

DAVID BROOKS:

Who knew that was possible?

DANIELLE PLETKA:

I really was surprised. But, you know, when we see this, we see an administration struggling, running to keep up with him to execute the increasingly random things that he's saying. That is also a crisis, in my opinion, because if this gets worse, we are looking at another year and a half of mismanagement, of lack of governance, and of genuine democratic crisis.

CHUCK TODD:

Well, here's the other part of it. Why take away the money from the Central American countries? And, of course, I was trying to get it, like, we have no consistency in our foreign policy. What we're doing in Venezuela, now, there are some political ramifications for Venezuela. It's called Florida's electoral votes.

KASIE HUNT:

Indeed. I mean, Chuck, the root of the question, I think, is, is this about policy or is it about politics? I mean, do they really want to solve this crisis because, I mean, I do think, you know, our system has, for many years, functioned that way. We have solved big problems in the past. We don't have the greatest immediate track record. But that doesn't mean that we couldn't do that. But trust has broken down because the sense is, the best point is why are you to take that money away when we know that it helps stem the root of the problem, if you're the president? It just indicates to others this is a political thing for him.

DAVID BROOKS:

Can we not let the Democrats off the hook here on this one?

CHUCK TODD:

Right, they --

DAVID BROOKS:

A lot of them are still saying there's no crisis. And then they're strangely mute on what to do. And I think the core problem is they don't know where their base is on immigration.

CHUCK TODD:

That's right.

DAVID BROOKS:

Are we an open borders party? Where are we? And they don't want to get on the wrong side of the Twitter mobs. And so it's just lay low, lay low, lay low or just be abstract.

CHUCK TODD:

Eugene?

EUGENE ROBINSON:

I don't think it is an open borders position to question the use of the word "crisis." Maybe you can use that word, you can not use that word. It's a lot of people who are coming in. But we are able to handle it. It's not hordes and hordes invading in the way that president describes the caravan. In fact, there is a process. And people get to apply for asylum. We can look at the asylum laws if you want to look at that. But we have laws. And we ought to follow --

DAVID BROOKS:

There are 700,000 people coming --

DANIELLE PLETKA:

Right, but --

DAVID BROOKS:

-- this year. And they wait till 2021 till they get a hearing.

DANIELLE PLETKA:

Right, this is a crisis in every sense of the word. You're right, we shouldn't get into semantics about this, but the president gets -- this is a sanctuary city play. He gets that the Democrats are in a very, very invidious position here.

CHUCK TODD:

All right, I hate to do this. Very fast to you, Kasie. You talked about it. The level of distrust between Congressional Democrats and Bill Barr, now. And what does that mean for Mueller this week? Are we going to debate more of what's redacted or more of what we see?

KASIE HUNT:

The trust that Democrats have in Bill Barr is basically absolutely nill. And Brian Schatz said in that hearing, you know, "What you just told us is going to cause everybody to freak out." And that's not what's going on.

CHUCK TODD:

He wasn't wrong. And it did. Everybody freaked out.

KASIE HUNT:

And, look, I do think there is still a chance that what Bill Barr presents to us will feel as though it is a complete or semi, mostly complete accounting. And he could get some forgiveness from, you know, Moderate Democrats. Chris Coons, for example, on the Senate Judiciary Committee. But if it looks like a bunch of, you know, classified material covered in black ink, forget it.

EUGENE ROBINSON:

If they redact all the grand jury material, that would be a huge chunk of the report, probably. And that would be a problem.

CHUCK TODD:

All right, thanks very much. When we come back, the presidential candidate who is making climate change the issue of his campaign, it's Governor Jay Inslee of Washington state. But I am going to ask him about whether sanctuary cities in his state would and should welcome migrants sent to them. Stay with us.

CHUCK TODD:

Welcome back. Up next is another candidate from Washington, Washington state, that is, not Washington D.C. There are now 15 major candidates who have either announced or filed paperwork for the Democratic nomination. And by the way, our little list of boxes up there does not include Joe Biden. Separating yourself from that large a field is a challenge. Washington Governor Jay Inslee is trying to meet by focusing on one major issue, confronting climate change. He's also the governor of a state that has many sanctuary cities. Here's the map of it. Just the kind of places to which President Trump is suggesting sending migrants crossing the U.S.-Mexican border. And Governor Jay Inslee joins me now. Governor, welcome to Meet the Press.

GOVERNOR JAY INSLEE:

Yeah, good morning. Thank you.

CHUCK TODD:

So let me start -- before I get to some other topics, let me start with what the president is suggesting. I know the Seattle mayor wrote an op-ed for The Washington Post that basically condemned the president's weaponization of the idea, but then essentially said, "All right, fine. You send them, we'll take them." Is that your attitude too? And, should this -- regardless of the president's tone, should actually this be part of the temporary solution?

GOVERNOR JAY INSLEE:

Well, this is yet another act of bombastic chaos that simply is not going to work for this ineffective president for several reasons. Number one, look, you can't threaten somebody with something they're not afraid of. And we are not afraid of diversity in the state of Washington. We relish it. It is the basis of our economic and cultural success. We're built as a state of immigrants. We've welcomed refugees, as we did the Vietnamese refugees, with a Republican governor back in the day. And we continue to welcome. That's why I was the first governor to say that our state was willing to take Syrian refugees. That's why I was the first governor to come out against the Muslim ban. That's why we've sued Donald Trump and won 18 times in a row. So this is simply not going to work for him because we are happy to take refugees. I'm proud of Mayor Durkan for what she has said. But it's also simply based on a matter of these are humans. These are people. Somehow, Trump thinks--

CHUCK TODD:

Tell me what you would do right now. Like, look, if you're elected president, there might be a Republican Senate, Democratic House. So a quick legislative fix is not there. Tell me what you do right now.

GOVERNOR JAY INSLEE:

Well, number one, I would attack climate change because a lot of these people who are coming north are climate refugees. Not all of them, but a lot of them. And the fact that Donald Trump has waved the white wave flag of surrender to climate change is wrong. In the immediate problem.

CHUCK TODD:

But that isn't going to deal with the migrants right now.

GOVERNOR JAY INSLEE:

In the immediate problem, it is pretty clear what we need to do. We have to be solution-based, rather than sort of trolling on the internet based. And if you are solution based, we've got to make the asylum process work. And that means we have to have more channels, more hearing officers to simply be able to process these cases. Look, you don't change the law just because you've got more cases in the federal court system, or get rid of judges, as he has suggested. We need more processing facilities to help these folks. And yes, while they're waiting for their asylum hearings, we're welcoming them to the state of Washington because we have found these folks frequently become pillars of our community.

CHUCK TODD:

You're going to hear -- you’re going to hear many Republicans say Democrats are for open borders. If somebody accuses you of being for open borders, what would you say?

GOVERNOR JAY INSLEE:

I would say that is inaccurate, as happens very frequently in this business. We -- what I do believe though is we need to change our policies. Number one, we have to respond to the American character of a nation based on immigration. I believe that the spirit of the Statue of Liberty is alive, not only in America, but in Elliott Bay in Washington state. We should increase the number of refugees we are taking. This is cruel that we have reduced the number of refugees America takes at the same time the world is aflame in climate change refugees and civil war. And that's why I came out as one of the first to say we would take Syrian refugees. That's one of the things I would do.

CHUCK TODD:

Do you think our immigration law though should be more restrictive or less restrictive as it stands right now? Do you think our laws, just our basic laws of how to become a citizen, how to become a resident, should it be less restrictive or more restrictive?

GOVERNOR JAY INSLEE:

Well, we should, number one, give the 11 million plus that are our neighbors, that are working, some of the hardest working people in the country, we need to give them a path to citizenship. We need comprehensive immigration reform. Number two, we need to protect our “Dreamers.” The fact that Donald Trump is holding the “Dreamers” as extortion bait, if you will, is just criminal. These people are in our universities. They're going to be engineers. They're going to be businesspeople. We've got to find a solution to the “Dreamers,” as I've done. I actually got college education for our “Dreamers.” Three, we've got to have an asylum process that works, which means we've got to have more processing facilities. And four, as I've indicated, we've got to have an American style of acceptance of refugees because we're a humane nation. We've got to have a humane policy.

CHUCK TODD:

You want to make, and you have said this very clearly, that the centerpiece of your candidacy is combating climate change, and everything is a derivative of that. It is a good way to get people to pay attention to you on day one of your candidacy. But as you know, health care's the number one issue among many Democratic primary voters. So, for instance, where do you stand on health care? Is it for something Medicare for all, a la Bernie Sanders, or is it Obamacare plus?

GOVERNOR JAY INSLEE:

I think we should follow what we're doing in Washington state. We hopefully, will be the first state in the country to offer a public option. We've been very -- one of the most successful in actually implementing Obamacare. And when you govern, you don't just give speeches, you actually make things to work. And we've had one of the more successful efforts. We are integrating physical and mental health, so it can be more effective and cost effective. Then on the federal level, we've got to have more access to Medicare on the road to universal access. And I believe that we need to reduce the age. I think we need to allow people to opt into Medicare when they want it. And this is the way to what we need and have to have, which is universal health care in the country.

CHUCK TODD:

You said the word "access." So it sounds like you think use the Obamacare framework and build upon it, versus scrapping the whole thing and starting over?

GOVERNOR JAY INSLEE:

No, yeah. I think that we can build by increasing accessibility to Medicare. And I believe that will lead to universal health care. I believe that's where we need to go. And I think we also have to find a way to reduce these drug prices by allowing bargaining for drug prices.

CHUCK TODD:

Let me go to some specifics on climate change. One of the bigger issues is pricing carbon. And we've seen the yellow vest movement in France. And you seem to be saying, “Well” -- you've tried to get tax and carbon passed as a referendum and you seem to be, like, "All right, I've got to listen to the voters. The voters have spoken, the people are speaking. And that maybe taxing, pricing carbon isn't the answer." What is the answer if you can't do it that way?

GOVERNOR JAY INSLEE:

Well, there are many answers. What we've learned is the most important renewable fuel in this battle against climate change is the fuel of perseverance. And that means we've got to look at multiple ways of moving forward. So we're moving forward in my state. We built a $6 billion wind turbine industry. We are electrifying our transportation system. We've got one of the highest uses of electric cars in the country and electric buses. We hope to build an electric ferry boat. We just passed a 100% clean electrical grid where we will not have fossil fuels on the grid. Just passed through one of my chambers the other day. So we need multiple--

CHUCK TODD:

But that means nukes. You're for nuclear energy. Not everybody in the -- on the environmental movement's for nuclear energy. You're open to nuclear energy, correct?

GOVERNOR JAY INSLEE:

I'm open to doing research and development to find out whether nuclear energy could become cost effective, could be safe and could deal with the waste stream. Those are things that would have to be resolved before it would become part of the mix. But I don't think we should shut off research into those options, given the urgency. Look, we've got one chance here. The next presidency, we've got one chance. And I am the candidate who is saying categorically it's got to be job one or it won't be done.

CHUCK TODD:

Is -- are you running for president to prove a point, to force the Democratic party to take this as number one? Or do you believe this truly is the best path to the Democratic nomination for you?

GOVERNOR JAY INSLEE:

I believe it is the best path because people are coming to realize the urgency of this. It's actually tied with health care as the number one priority of voters in Iowa and for good reason. I was just in Hamburg, Iowa, a little town that's been there since 1858 -- never been flooded before. Now it's been underwater. I was in Seminole Springs and saw a community burned down in California. I was in Miami Beach when I saw the roads have to be built up. People are now getting this. What used to be a graph on a chart is now reality. It's ash on the hood of your car. And so people are ready for this. And they also understand the economic potential of this, as I have for a long time. The things I've predicted in 2007 in my book, it’s happening.

CHUCK TODD:

Running from the West Coast. We know that the, whatever it is, there's an East Coast bias in this country, even a central time zone bias to this country. Is it -- how high is that hurdle sometimes, just simply the time zone?

GOVERNOR JAY INSLEE:

Well, I think it's a benefit because I think the West Coast is on the cutting edge of ideas frequently. In my state, we've legalized marijuana. I've offered pardons to thousands of people with marijuana convictions. I've done the best family paid leave in America. I've done the best, or led an effort, to get the best minimum wage in America. I did the first net neutrality bill in America and the best gender pay equity. This is where good ideas come from. I like being from the West.

CHUCK TODD:

So you have no -- I would -- so the time issue isn't becoming a problematic --

GOVERNOR JAY INSLEE:

Here I am--

CHUCK TODD:

--part of the--

GOVERNOR JAY INSLEE:

--I can get up a little earlier than usual.

CHUCK TODD:

Fair enough. Governor Jay Inslee, Democrat from Washington state. Stay safe on the trail.

GOVERNOR JAY INSLEE:

Thank you. Thanks for doing your climate change piece too.

CHUCK TODD:

Much appreciate that as well. When we come back, where the real left-right split lies in America.

CHUCK TODD:

Welcome back. Data Download time. Not surprisingly, whites and minority groups in the United States often see the world through very different lenses. And a new Pew Research survey looks at different attitudes about racial equality in America. On the surface, you can see what appears to be predictable splits along racial lines. 78% of African Americans say the country has not gone far enough on the issue of making sure blacks had equal rights with whites. Only 37% of whites say the same thing. On the legacy of slavery, 84% of blacks say slavery had a great deal or a fair amount of impact on the position of African Americans in society today. Lower numbers but majorities of Asians, Hispanics, and whites agree. And as great as the differences among the races are on these questions, the real story is the differences between whites, when you look at this through the prism of political parties. Among white democrats, 64% say the country has not gone far enough in giving African Americans equal rights. Among white Republicans, only 15% hold that view. On the legacy of slavery, 80% of white Democrats say it's had a big impact, compared to 40% of white Republicans. In other words, white Democrats look a lot like African American respondents than they look like white Republicans. And we see the same kind of differences, when you look at how people view racial equality in real-life circumstances. A majority of African Americans surveyed say they believe they are treated less fairly than whites in dealing with police, in the workplace, when voting in elections, and when applying for mortgages. Except on the issue of policing, a majority of white respondents did not agree. But those numbers shift, when we look at these questions through a red-blue filter. White Democrats, again, track more closely with how African American respondents felt on these questions, while white Republicans feel differently. Bottom line, there's relative unity among minority groups on these questions of racial equality. The bigger split seems to be among whites, along political lines. And that's what makes these issues so complicated to deal with here in Washington. When we come back, End Game. A lot of people have been called the Democratic frontrunner. Is anyone really the frontrunner right now?

CHUCK TODD:

Back now with End Game. If it's a weekend, somebody's announcing for president. And--and one today, and we had one yesterday. Here's Cory Booker, from yesterday.

[BEGIN TAPE]

SEN. CORY BOOKER:

We will end the system of mass incarceration in America. We won't wait to legalize marijuana at the federal level. We will pass universal background checks. We will ban assault weapons. I will fight for Medicare for all.

[END TAPE]

CHUCK TODD:

It's interesting that the former mayor of Newark, Eugene, is--announced yesterday, and the hottest candidate that's not named Biden or Bernie in this race is a current mayor of a smaller city called South Bend, Pete Buttigieg, who officially throws in today. The Cory Booker announcement yesterday was a reminder of, I think we all thought Cory Booker would feel like a bigger presence in this campaign than he's been yet. Why?

EUGENE ROBINSON:

Well, you know, because he's been running for a while. I mean, he announced --

CHUCK TODD:

It feels like it, yeah.

EUGENE ROBINSON:

You know, he just announced. But he's, but he’s actually been running. It's been clear he was running. It-it, it doesn’t seem to -- he just hasn't caught fire. He hasn't caught fire with either the donor base or the voters, thus far. And he’s not -- I mean, you can't say he's a top-tier candidate right now. He's a sitting senator, you know, impressive guy.

CHUCK TODD:

I wonder if he wishes he could be running as the Newark mayor, not as the former-Newark mayor.

DAVID BROOKS:

I think this is a good time to buy Booker stock.

CHUCK TODD:

Do you? It’s a --

DAVID BROOKS:

I'm looking at the emotional primary here. There are lovers and fighters. And the lovers are Beto, Buttigieg, and Cory. And the fighters are Bernie, Kamala. Those are more pugilistic. And I think a lot of Democrats are finally going to say, "Let's put an end to all that, what we've been through with Trump."

KASIE HUNT:

I completely disagree.

DAVID BROOKS:

That’s why we’re here.

CHUCK TODD:

By the way, Kasie, let me throw something up here. This is why you disagree. Look at these frontrunners. Everybody's been a frontrunner. And everybody gets to be a frontrunner. Vanity Fair, "Kamala Harris is the new 2020 frontrunner." Wall Street Journal, "Beto O'Rourke starts as the frontrunner." "Bernie Sanders is the Democratic frontrunner." The point is, everybody's a frontrunner.

KASIE HUNT:

There's no single frontrunner, I don't think, right now. But there is -- there are tiers. And you know, I think Bernie Sanders has now been, rightfully, placed in that top tier. He was kind of ignored, initially. I do think there is a question as to why Cory Booker is not currently in the top tier. I do think, though, that there is something to be said for peaking at the right time. I mean, how many of us, you know, I certainly didn't peak in high school. And you know, here we are, on the set of Meet the Press, right? Same goes for an election, you know? I mean, it’s a long--we've got a long way to go till Iowa and --

DAVID BROOKS:

Does that mean this is the peak for you?

CHUCK TODD:

Well, by the way, in fact, to prove this point and to hammer it home, we had both an Iowa and a New Hampshire poll this week that had, by the way, identical order of candidates in the Iowa and New Hampshire polls. It had Biden, one, followed closely by Bernie. And it was Buttigieg was the surprise third place, Warren dropping to four, all of this. But I went back into our way-back machine. Here was a mid-May poll in Iowa in 2015. Hillary Clinton was winning by 40 points. And remember, Iowa ended up being decided by, basically, a margin of error between candidates.

KASIE HUNT:

Yeah, I mean but if you talk to Bernie people, they'll say they won Iowa.

CHUCK TODD:

The point is -- is that these polls are meaningless.

DANIELLE PLETKA:

I'm going to use another baseball analogy, because I know how happy it makes you. 2012 and 2016 for the Republicans, right, basically, you were just waiting to get to the top of the batting order. It was literally just this nonstop, you know, go from the bottom to the top, bottom to top. The one lesson that I think is pretty sad here, for all of us, is that what big mistake did Cory Booker make? He ran for Senate. The Senate is like the sucking sound for everybody's political career. It's true.

CHUCK TODD:

Well, as Pete Buttigieg said, last week, he goes, "I haven't been corrupted by Washington. I don't have the taint or the stain of Washington."

DANIELLE PLETKA:

But he’s -- but he's right.

EUGENE ROBINSON:

So let me--let me challenge conventional wisdom for a second. And you know, the conventional wisdom is that, if you're a Democrat, you're running for president, you've got to present your positive agenda. You can't be just anti-Trump. I'm waiting for somebody to come out and say, "You know what? I'm the anti-Trump candidate. I'm running to beat Donald Trump." And we’ll fit --

CHUCK TODD:

Isn't that Terry McAuliffe? Isn't that why he sent out the alligator picture?

EUGENE ROBINSON:

Maybe it's Terry.

KASIE HUNT:

Bernie Sanders is actually making that point. And it's unusual, because it's different from what he did last time around.

EUGENE ROBINSON:

I think there's some traction there. I mean, "This is a national emergency. We have to beat Donald Trump. I'm going to do it. You know, let's figure out how."

CHUCK TODD:

By the way, David, having you here, I've found the Pete Buttigieg-Mike Pence back and forth, essentially, almost a debate over who gets to define Christianity, a little bit, in politics. Take a listen.

[BEGIN TAPE]

MAYOR PETE BUTTIGIEG:

That's the thing I wish the Mike Pences of the world would understand. That if you've got a problem with who I am, your problem is not with me. Your quarrel, sir, is with my Creator.

VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE:

He's said some things that are critical of my Christian faith and about me, personally. And he knows better.

MAYOR PETE BUTTIGIEG:

I'm not critical of his faith. I'm critical of bad policies.

VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE:

All of us have our own religious convictions. Pete has his convictions. I have mine.

[END TAPE]

CHUCK TODD:

David, there are so many Jimmy Carter, to me, comparisons to Buttigieg right now, between the '75-'76 era and today, for so many reasons. And this trying to have a conversation about Christianity in the Democratic Party is part of it.

DAVID BROOKS:

Yeah. Well, taking in the stranger, as I understand it, is a reasonably large part of Christianity. And that's what we're talking about, with immigrants and all that. There's a natural play for the religious left, somebody who can talk honestly in the language of the gospel. I sort of think it was a mistake to go after Pence. Because the great thing about Buttigieg, he gives you left-wing policies without left-wing culture war. And I'd hate to think -- to see him go into the culture-war territory.

CHUCK TODD:

He seemed to want to pull back slightly a bit from that, didn't he?

DAVID BROOKS:

Right, I think so.

KASIE HUNT:

Yeah, I mean, I think it's risky to, to see it -- for anyone of-of faith to go after somebody else's personal--like, that's the line in the sand that he didn't seem to want to draw. But I do think Mike Pence is so far on one side of the culture war that, you know, he can, to a certain extent, kind of set up that contrast. I mean, Chuck, you know that Democrats are constantly debating. "Well, even if we impeach Trump, we'd end up with Mike Pence. Is that better or worse," you know? And I think some people see his policies as more, you know, far right than even the president's.

DANIELLE PLETKA:

But I think he really set up the strawman argument. I mean, there wasn't actually a fight between Pence and, and Pete Buttigieg. I said it right, I know. And that's really risky, I think.

CHUCK TODD:

Well, I think that will be a fascinating debate, going forward. That's all we have for today. Thank you very much for watching. I really appreciate it. We’ll be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.