CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday: A vaccine pause.
DR. JERRY ABRAHAM:
This is all the Johnson and Johnson that I can’t use.
CHUCK TODD:
Health officials temporarily stop the use of the Johnson and Johnson vaccine --
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
This, in fact, is a confirmation of how seriously we take safety.
CHUCK TODD:
-- after at least eight people suffer dangerous blood clots.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
You’re talking about tens and tens and tens of millions of people who have received the vaccine with no adverse effect, this is a really rare event.
CHUCK TODD:
The U.S. still has enough vaccines, but what about the world?
DR. KAVITA PATEL:
The world is probably going to have a setback. And that in the end sets back the United States.
CHUCK TODD:
My guests this morning: Dr. Anthony Fauci and Governor Gretchen Whitmer of Michigan, which has seen the biggest spike of Covid cases nationwide. Also, another week of gun violence --
CRAIG McCART:
There was no confrontation with anyone that was there. There was no disturbance. There was no argument. He just appeared to randomly start shooting.
CHUCK TODD:
-- and criticism of deadly policing.
POLICE OFFICER:
Taser, taser, taser. Holy s***, I just shot him.
CHUCK TODD:
-- with protests in cities across the country.
CHUCK TODD:
Plus, the former Speaker speaks --
JOHN BOEHNER:
There's nothing worse than a reckless jackass who thinks he's smarter than everybody else.
CHUCK TODD:
John Boehner goes after his former Republican colleagues for the party's sharp turn to the right. But what role did he play in making the party what it is today?
CHUCK TODD:
Now looking backwards, do you think you should have done more?
CHUCK TODD:
My interview this morning with John Boehner. Joining me for insight and analysis are: NBC News Chief White House correspondent Kristen Welker, Eddie Glaude, Jr., of Princeton University, Anna Palmer, founder of Punchbowl News and the Senior Editor of The Dispatch, David French. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning. There was no shortage of big stories this week, from criticism of police tactics to yet another mass shooting, this one in Indianapolis. Troop withdrawal from a warzone. President Biden's Friday flip, then flop, on immigration policy. But the news that garnered the biggest headlines came when federal health agencies temporarily halted injections of Johnson & Johnson's vaccine because a small number of people had suffered blood clots after receiving it. While it's not clear what connection -- if any -- there is between the J&J vaccine and the clotting, the halt is likely to have profound implications, however temporary it is. Will people ever feel confident about getting the J&J shot, no matter what the science ultimately says? Will vaccine skeptics use this to erode confidence in all the vaccines? Will developing countries feel the less attractive J&J vaccine is being dumped on them? And most of all, will this further damage trust in government? After the news hit, the federal vaccine advisory committee met and announced that it had nothing new to announce. For four years, and especially during the pandemic, there was little reason to trust what the White House was telling us. Now, after months of good news on vaccines, this J&J pause is the Biden administration's first real speed bump and how it handles it will go a long way towards determining trust in this new presidency.
PAM CHATMAN:
We had so many people committed to taking the J&J. And as soon as we informed them that they had taken it off the shelves, they panicked.
WOMAN:
When complications came behind it, I decided, mm-mm, no.
WOMAN:
My family had appointments today, they all cancelled.
CHUCK TODD:
This week, a pause on Johnson & Johnson's vaccine --
DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY:
I have always told you I'm going to tell you the truth, and I'm going to lead with science. CDC and FDA were alerted to six cases of rare types blood clots
CHUCK TODD:
7.8 million Americans have already received the J&J vaccine. The 8 people who have now been identified with a rare clotting disorder experienced it in the first two weeks. Roughly 3.8 million people were still within that "risk window" when the CDC made its announcement on Wednesday.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Tens and tens and tens of millions of people who've received vaccine with no adverse effect. This is a really rare event.
WOMAN:
I am not worried at all. I mean, that's a really minute percentage and I felt great after my shot.
CHUCK TODD:
The CDC Advisory Committee won't meet until Friday to decide whether or not to extend the pause. Public health officials worry it is already having a devastating effect on vaccine hesitancy. Even before the announcement, according to USA Today, the number of counties with unfilled vaccine appointments at Walmart, CVS and Rite Aid was already up by about 60 percent in a week.
GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:
It's going to be a little bit more of a messaging challenge. We've got to rebuild any lack of confidence as a result of this pause.
CHUCK TODD:
Hesitancy is particularly acute among conservatives. In polling conducted before the pause, more than 40 percent of Republicans said they do not plan to get any COVID vaccine.
DR. DAVID KESSLER:
Ideology, whatever your concerns, these are very safe and effective vaccines.
CHUCK TODD:
Country music star Brad Paisley is among those urging his fans to get vaccinated.
BRAD PAISLEY:
Empty seats can't cheer. So when it's your turn to get the vaccine, be a fan. Take the shot.
DR. FRANCIS COLLINS:
For me as a scientist who's also a Christian, this is an answer to a lot of prayers.
CHUCK TODD:
Fueling concerns, hospitalizations continue to rise, up 9 percent over the last two weeks.
DR. JONEIGH KHALDUN:
Patients are again lining or hallways, like they were last spring, the situation is very serious.
GOV. JARED POLIS:
This is a race against the clock
CHUCK TODD:
Michigan is in a state of crisis: accounting for more than 10 percent of the country's daily cases.
GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER:
Our test positivity rate is hovering around 18 percent. Two dozen hospitals are at 90 percent capacity or higher.
JOHN ENGLISH:
They're really overrun, all the hospitals are.
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is Dr. Anthony Fauci. He's of course the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. Dr. Fauci, welcome back to Meet the Press. Let's start with obviously the concerns of a lot of folks, the state of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. Do you anticipate we will at least know something more definitive come Friday when the, when the advisory committee meets next?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Yeah, I'm fairly certain of that, Chuck. I think by Friday we'll know which way we're going on this. Hopefully we'll get back on track. But I don't think there's going to be anything that'll linger beyond that. I hope not. I don't think so.
CHUCK TODD:
In hindsight, given -- I'm sure you've seen the survey. Since the announcement of the pause, vaccine hesitancy is up. We've seen vaccine appointments go unfilled. I know you've made the case that, "Hey, you know, please. Look, the fact that we're telling you should give you more confidence, not less." But unfortunately, it appears that it is the reverse. Do you look at how this sort of spiraled out here and wonder if there should have been a different way you guys handled this?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well, you know, what we do, Chuck and that's why we keep saying we leave it to the science. We have the experienced FDA and CDC people who are looking at it and monitoring it. You know, there's one case, then two, three, four. And then when they got to six, they say, "We really need to pause.” You know, hopefully it'll be a quite temporary pause to do a couple of things. One, examine that hopefully there are not several more out there, to alert physicians, "Stay heads up for this." We're concerned. It's a very serious complication. Although it is extremely rare, as you well put. You know, you have six cases in close to seven million people. The other thing about it, Chuck, that's important is that you want to let the physicians out there know, who might see women or anybody with this condition, that the standard way you would think about treating clots is with the anticoagulant Heparin. That would be contraindicated in this case because Heparin could actually make things worse. So there's a twofold reason for doing it: one, to pause and take a look in more detail about it; and two, to make sure that the physicians treat people appropriately.
CHUCK TODD:
Did you have -- did you work with European regulators who went through this with the AstraZeneca vaccine? Because obviously it looks like these two vaccines, which are made with the similar technology, seem to be having a similar issue with blood clots in a certain, in a certain segment of the population. I guess the question is: Could you have made a designation that was a bit more narrow, and say that women -- Dr. Peter Hotez was saying it's possible that we'll end up saying women who are taking birth control shouldn't use the -- shouldn’t take the J&J vaccine. Why not make a specific group on the pause rather than the entire population?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Yeah. I don't think we have enough information to do that, Chuck, quite honestly. Because when you talk to our colleagues in Europe, particularly in the U.K., it isn't only women. There are men involved. And it isn't always associated with birth control by any means. So I think we have to be careful. We did not have enough information to make a narrow restriction off the bat. When we get more information and that's what we're talking about Friday, it may be by the time you get to Friday that they will say, "Okay, we've looked into it now. Here are some of the restrictions." But I think it would have been too early to have restrictions without looking more closely at it.
CHUCK TODD:
The third shots. Both the CEOs of Moderna and Pfizer have indicated it's likely we're going to need a third shot. There are some people that are going to hear, when pharmaceutical CEOs say it, they may raise an eyebrow. I assume this is going to be a federal government decision. What can you tell us about your -- where we are in the research about the need for a third shot?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well, absolutely. You're absolutely correct. It is going to be a public health decision. It's not going to be a decision that's going to be made by a pharmaceutical company. We're partners with them because they're supplying it. It'll be an FDA/CDC decision. The CDC will use their Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices the way they always do. And what we'll do, Chuck, is we'll look at the durability of the response, namely measure the antibodies. We'll get hopefully soon a good correlate of immunity. And if the correlate goes down, and you see it start to slope down, you could project when it's going to be so low that you might have a danger of having breakthrough infections. When that happens, clearly you're going to see a recommendation for a boost. The other thing is you might start seeing more breakthrough infections that go beyond the level of the efficacy of the vaccine. And then you might also make a decision to do it. But it will be a public health based decision, not a pharmaceutical company-based decision.
CHUCK TODD:
By the way, going back to the Johnson & Johnson, what's more likely: that we will still use the Johnson & Johnson vaccine with some restrictions, or is it very possible we don't use it at all?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
You know, everything is on the table. Again, I'm telling you I don't know so that it doesn't come and bounce back at me--
CHUCK TODD:
I understand--
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
But I can give you my estimate. My estimate is that we will continue to use it in some form. I doubt very seriously if they just cancel it. I don't think that's going to happen. I do think that there will likely be some sort of warning or restriction or risk assessment. I don't think it's just going to go back and say, "Okay, everything's fine," go right back. I think it'll likely say, "Okay, we're going to use it. But be careful under these certain circumstances."
CHUCK TODD:
The idea of life back to normal after you've been vaccinated. Governor Ron DeSantis, Republican from Florida, he thinks that the messaging has been muddled. He says, you know, "You tell people on one hand, 'You've got to get vaccinated, but you've still got to do all these things. You've still got to social distance. You still--'" He's concerned and he's not alone here—that it almost defeats the incentive to get the vaccination. It shouldn't, but it can. Why does a vaccinated person have to wear a mask?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Okay. This is something that as we get more information it's going to be pulling back that you won't have to. But currently the reason is that when you get vaccinated, you are clearly diminishing dramatically your risk of getting infected. That's one of the things we've got to make sure everybody understands. You dramatically diminish it. However, what happens is that you might get infected and get absolutely no symptoms, not know you're infected and then inadvertently go into a situation with vulnerable people. And if you don't have a mask, you might inadvertently infect them. Now, there's a small risk of that, but it's there. The other thing is that there may be variants that are circulating. We know New York area has their own variant, 526. There's a South African variant. Fortunately for us, Chuck, the 117 variant that is dominant in Europe and in U.K. is also now dominant in the United States. Thank goodness the vaccine works very well against that variant.
CHUCK TODD:
The state of Michigan and some other governors are nervous that, that -- about certain outbreaks right now. They would like a surge in vaccines. Is that an effective way to beat back a hot spot?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
You know, when you're in the middle of a hot spot, the best thing to do is to try and contain it. And that's why the government is sending in people to help out with testing, help out with contact tracing, try to get the distribution of the vaccines that are already there more expeditiously distributed. So they're putting resources in there to help them. But the best way when you're in the middle of a real big outbreak and a big surge is really to shut down things much more so. If you take vaccines from other places and move it around, you make that place vulnerable to what's going on in Michigan. That's the reason why you're not seeing a lot of remobilization of vaccines from one state to another.
CHUCK TODD:
Dr. Anthony Fauci, as always, sir, really appreciate having you on, trying to explain this to a nervous public. As always, sir, thanks.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Thank you. Thanks for having me, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Of course, no state has been hit harder by the recent rise in Covid cases than Michigan. And Governor Gretchen Whitmer, a Democrat, has asked the federal government to do just what I asked Dr. Fauci about, send more vaccines to her state. And as you just heard, some health officials say more vaccines won't help right now. And their recommendation is that Michigan should consider shutting things down again, as it did last summer. Well, joining me now is Governor Whitmer. Governor, welcome back to Meet the Press. And before I get you to respond on any of that, just lay it out here. What are your public health officials telling you today? And there's been some hope that maybe we're plateauing in the northern tier. Are we?
GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER:
So, we're clearly watching the data. We're working with our local public health experts, talking with national experts as well. What we know is that our success at keeping Covid spread down for such a long period of time has left us with vast reservoirs of people who don't have antibodies. And that was a good thing until the variants came onstage. Until we are 15 months into this and people are tired and dropping the protocols. We still have very strong measures to keep people safe. Mask mandates, we've got capacity restrictions, we've got work from home. We're imploring people to take a two-week pause. Don't go to indoor dining. Maybe, you know, keep your kids at home for virtual learning after spring break. But we are starting to see, you know, the beginning of what could be a slowdown, which is welcome. But what also is welcome is we've gotten a lot of help from the Biden administration to surge some therapeutics here, get some boots on the ground, and I think all of these things are really going to be important to us stemming the tide of what we're seeing.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Governor, a lot of people think you're changing your tune slightly. And I want to play a couple of things you've said to me before about following the science. So take a listen.
[START TAPE]
GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER:
We've got to follow the science and the data. And we have to make decisions based on facts. I'm not going to be bullied into not following the science or not doing what I know to be the right thing.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
And then here's what you said this week in response to the idea of a lockdown. Take a listen.
[START TAPE]
GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER:
What might seem like a natural thing to do is much more complicated than what the CDC might suggest when you look at the reality here on the ground.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
So what's changed? Is it the fatigue? Is it the -- the blowback you've been getting? Is it all of it?
GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER:
A lot of things have changed. You know, 15 months ago, we didn't know that this virus could be contained by the simple act of wearing a mask. We did not have PPE at our fingertips. We certainly didn't have the testing or the vaccines. We're now in a much different position. On top of that, in the waning months I have been sued by my legislature, I have lost in a Republican-controlled Supreme Court, and I don't have all of the exact same tools. Despite those things, we still have some of the strongest mitigation measures in the country: mask mandates, capacity limitations, working from home. So we're still doing what we can. But what is really happening on the ground here is we're moving fast to get shots in arms. We got a million in two weeks, a million in just the last nine days. So we keep breaking our own records. We've got these continued mitigation practices. And I'm working with a smaller set of tools at my disposal. And that's why we really do need and appreciate the additional help that we're getting from the federal government.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. I mean, you said “smaller set of tools.” So the bottom line is if you thought you could do more, you would? Because we know your health -- a lot of the hospital systems in Michigan are, like, "You know, we really wish there were a more official pause in activities." It does sound like you're saying, "My hands are tied."
GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER:
Well, at the end of the day this is going to come down to whether or not everyone does their part. That's the most important thing. This variant, the B117 variant, is what is growing so quickly here in Michigan. We have the second most of it than I think right after Florida, at least that was the last data that I saw. Michigan and Florida are not next to each other. But this is the time in the year that snowbirds come home from Florida, where people are going on spring break, and all of these things can contribute to spread. And that's why we're imploring people to take this seriously, mask up, get tested. If you've been around someone who's positive, stay home. And if you do get Covid, use one of these monoclonal antibodies so that we can keep you out of the hospital and help you retain your health.
CHUCK TODD:
Are you still looking for extra vaccines? And I know that, I think, a neighboring governor colleague, Governor Tim Walz, was thinking about the same. Are the governors thinking about helping each other out here if the Biden administration's hesitant about doing this?
GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER:
Well, if more vaccines become available to Michigan, I can tell you we will quickly get those into the arms of people. We are going to see, I think, a moment where supply outweighs demand. And perhaps in parts of the country, that's already happening. And that's a concern. We've got to continue to urge the public to get these safe, effective vaccines, to understand that this is the key to saving your health and those you love around you. But also, to getting our economy back on track and getting that normalcy every single one of us craves. We are, I think, at a very serious moment. And that's precisely why we're going to keep following the science. We're going to keep imploring people to do the right things. We're going to keep our mitigations up and keep moving vaccines as quickly as we possibly can.
CHUCK TODD:
Michigan, and in particular the Detroit area, has always been very welcoming to refugees. If President Biden lifts this cap, as he's hinting that he may do in May, are you going to be a governor that says, "Send -- resettle refugees in Michigan"?
GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER:
We are proud to be a home to a very diverse population. This is something that has been a great strength for our state. It’s something that has -- the auto industry drew people in from all around the world because you could get a good-paying, union job and raise a family on it. So, this is a place where we always want to be welcoming to people that are looking for an opportunity and a better life. And so Michigan will continue to do that.
CHUCK TODD:
Governor Gretchen Whitmer, Democrat from Michigan, we're all hoping that we see this Michigan case count get lower. I know you are, too. Anyway, thanks for coming on here and sharing your perspective.
GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, the panel joins us on the national debate over policing and on guns after yet another mass shooting on Friday in Indianapolis. In fact, meet the eight victims of that shooting.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. The panel is with us: NBC News chief White House correspondent Kristen Welker; Eddie Glaude Jr. of Princeton University; Anna Palmer, founder of the new website Punchbowl News; and the senior editor of The Dispatch, David French. Eddie, this is, this is how The New York Times had this graph this morning, and it certainly, this weekend, and it jumped out at me. "Since testimony began on March 29th in the Derek Chauvin trial, at least 64 people have died at the hands of law enforcement nationwide, with Black and Latino people representing more than half of those dead. As of Saturday, the average was more than three killings a day." Eddie, where are we? And have we made any progress here at all at at least having a police reform conversation?
EDDIE GLAUDE JR.:
Well, it seems that we're in an interregnum, Chuck. We're between two worlds. And what do I mean by that? There's a form of policing that we are seeing and experiencing that has been shaped by a particular ideological frame, the war on drugs, being tough on crime. And that has resulted in the kind of massive incarceration of the American population, the militarization of the police. And it has an underlying kind of threat of violence as a way or policing particular communities in the country. That has resulted -- that has had tangible impacts and effects on particular communities. So we're seeing the effects of that policing. But we seem to be transitioning into a new way of thinking about safety and security. So we're in this kind of interregnum. The Chauvin trial represents this transition. And so we're “both and” in some ways, Chuck. There are residual traces of the age of Reagan as it's collapsing as we're reaching for a new way of being together.
CHUCK TODD:
David French, here's how the governor of Minnesota put it very bluntly on Thursday.
[BEGIN TAPE]
GOV. TIM WALZ:
I don't think it's much of a debate. You're less safe to be Black in Minnesota than you are to be white right now on these things. And they're asking, "Are there some changes that we can make both legislatively and culturally that will start to reduce that?"
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
David, can we?
DAVID FRENCH:
Yeah. There are absolutely changes legislatively. There are changes judicially that can be made. One of the things that Eddie just said that's very important is we have a lot of doctrines that apply to police that enable the use of force as a result of the war on drugs, also as a result, as a result of overestimating risk to police in various circumstances. But at the same time, what we also have to do is we have to reform police at the same time we're recognizing that we have a violent crime spike in this country. And so one of the things that we have to do is we have to professionalize police. And we have to end any of this, this argument that somehow diminished, defunding the police, that dismantling the police is any kind of talking point in American politics. So you have to reform police at the same time that you address a violent crime surge. And we have to talk about both of these at the same time.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, what you just presented, David, is actually you feel like you see this debate in the Democratic party, Anna Palmer, and it's in Congress. Let me play, here is Jim Clyburn, number three among House Democrats. Take a listen.
[BEGIN TAPE]
REP. JIM CLYBURN:
This is not about policing. This is not about training. This is about recruiting. Who are we recruiting to be police officers? That, to me, is where the focus has got to go. We've got to have police officers.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
And it's that line there, Rashida Tlaib tweeting, "No more policing, incarceration and militarization. It can't be reformed." Anna Palmer, is there a real divide in the Democratic Party? Or are there more on the Jim Clyburn side of we need reform, but you need policing?
ANNA PALMER:
I think Congresswoman Tlaib is really out there on her own right now. And you've seen this pullback of Democrats after she made that tweet, among them Jim Clyburn. Even progressives like Bernie Sanders, they do not want to have the rallying cry for the base to be, "Defund the police." They think it is going to only hurt them going into the midterms. And sorry to bring it back to politics, but that's what this is for a lot of members of Congress. And if Democrats believe if they are not in power in Congress, then none of these kind of other issues could move forward. So I think you're going to see Democrats writ large move away from "Defund the police," try to find other measures that they can agree on.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Kristen Welker, the Biden campaign made promises on police reform. They made promises on the gun issue, too. And, of course, we just got just a sledgehammer over our heads collectively as an American community again here. I want to show this map. These are the mass shootings in 2021. Look at all these red dots. 592 people wounded, 181 killed. And our definition of a mass shooting, four or more people shot. Not necessarily killed, four or more people shot, not including the initial gunman. Kristen, where does the White House think they can make progress, on police reform or on gun regulation?
KRISTEN WELKER:
So taking both of those issues, Chuck, first on police reform, the White House is pushing for the George Floyd Bill, which passed the House, to pass the Senate. That is a bill that would make it easier to prosecute police misconduct. It would pour resources into training police. There is a bipartisan effort to try to move that forward. No progress though. Same thing as it relates to guns. They're urging Congress to act on two bills that would expand background checks that passed the House. They now want the Senate to act. The reality though, Chuck, while those two things have stalled, the White House is focused on infrastructure. It's a big push.
CHUCK TODD:
David, the gun debate. It does feel as if the debate has shifted, at least on, on the right side of the aisle, so far to the right. I mean, look at your home state right now of Tennessee. You know, there was a time getting a permit to get a handgun wasn't a controversial thing.
DAVID FRENCH:
Look, true. I mean, but look, a lot of our gun control argument and conversation after a mass shooting, a mass shooting occurs and then gun control measures are suggested that don't really have anything to do with the mass shootings. So what I think is necessary and states should be exploring right now are things called red flag laws that a number of states --
CHUCK TODD:
We had one here, David --
DAVID FRENCH:
They're not foolproof. Nothing is foolproof. But one thing that red flag laws do is they're targeted at problematic and dangerous individual behavior, rather than passing laws that don't really have anything to do with exactly how mass shooters obtain their guns. So that’s, when you're talking about reform, I think when you target reform at the problematic behavior, you're going to have a better chance to save lives than gestures that aren't actually targeted at the behavior itself.
CHUCK TODD:
Eddie, care to respond?
EDDIE GLAUDE JR.:
Sure. I think we need to address the outsized influence of gun manufacturers in our, in our public policy debate. But let's be clear: people are dying. And so we can be nuanced in this way that David is trying to suggest, but eight people are dead in, at FedEx. 147 mass shootings since January. That's four months. Four months. And so it makes little sense to me that we think about or we dance around the Second Amendment in this way while we're constantly burying folks. And let's be very clear here really quickly, Chuck, is that there is a mass mental health crisis in this country. But it's happening in a place where we're awash in guns. So we need to prepare ourselves for the kind of convergence of those two things in very, very horrific ways, it seems to me.
CHUCK TODD:
Everybody agrees, we don't want the mentally ill to have access to these firearms. We just can't figure out how to stop it. Very respectful debate. Thank you all for that. Before we go to break, I want to remind you of our new streaming show, Meet the Press Reports. It's on NBC News Now and Peacock. This week, we're covering cybersecurity, how our adversaries target our technology. My colleague Jo Ling Kent spoke to Microsoft President Brad Smith.
[START TAPE]
JO LING KENT:
Do you believe that we're at war on the internet right now?
BRAD SMITH:
I think most of the time, people would say this is not an act of war. But it also doesn't feel like a time of peace, especially when we see not only this technology, these attacks used for, say, something like espionage, but sometimes to, to, to damage people's computers, to disrupt the operations of, say, a hospital or a school, to put at risk the electrical grid. These are dangerous steps.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
From cyber stick-ups, to nation state espionage. You can see this episode anytime on Peacock. New episodes debut Thursdays on NBC News Now at 8:00 Eastern. Up next, my interview with Former Speaker John Boehner. He hates what the Republican Party has become, but does he bear some responsibility?
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Former Speaker of the House John Boehner had a front-row seat as his Republican Party changed from a small government, low taxes party to what it is today. At various points in his new book, On the House: A Washington Memoir, Boehner torches his “knucklehead caucus,” “a kook,” “a lunatic” and an “a-hole.” And those were descriptions of members of his own party. But his critics suggest Boehner spent some of the time not just in the front seat, but in the driver's seat of what he calls the “Republican clown car” and that he deserves some of the criticism he doles out to others for the extremism of his own party. Well, John Boehner joins me now. Mr. Speaker, welcome back to Meet The Press.
JOHN BOEHNER:
Chuck, it's good to be with you.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, let me start with sort of that general criticism, and you've heard it already, which says you did a good job of identifying all the ways in the last ten years that you saw the party lurch to the right for various reasons, right, whether it was on talk radio, in the fundraising circuit, on the House floor. What responsibility do you have and do you hold yourself for in this change in the party?
JOHN BOEHNER:
Well, Chuck, every day that I saw this, beginning in 2011, I pushed back on it. I did everything I could to bring all these members into the Republican Party, into our team, but some of them just didn't want to come. Most of those so-called Tea Party types, frankly, became very good Republicans. And on any given day, I had 210, 215 solid Republican votes, but on any given day I had two or three dozen of what I call “knuckleheads” who wanted chaos. Who wanted it 100 percent their way or no way. But every single day, in the five years that I was speaker, I tried to work to bring them into the party. Some just wouldn't come.
CHUCK TODD:
Is that the mistake, though? I mean, that goes -- I get what you're saying. And that is the chief line of criticism is that you sort of, you guys liked the energy that they brought. You liked the fact that, hey, they attracted, you know, and helped with some donations. It seemed to fire up some voters that hadn't been fired up in a while. And you just sort of ignored the downside until it was too late. Now, looking backwards, do you think you should have done more?
JOHN BOEHNER:
No, Chuck, I don't think I could have done more, given the time that we had. You know, hindsight's 20/20. It's easy to look back now, ten years, six years ago and wonder. But I can tell you that I did everything every day I could to bring them into the party, make them part of the party, but some of them just frankly didn't want to come.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask something about the white supremacist -- this stuff that just keeps trying to get into the mainstream, into the conservative movement. I feel like the Republican Party that you grew up in did a pretty good job of trying to eradicate this. And it creeped back in. Whether it creeped in via libertarian movements or whatever, it creeped back in, and you see it. You've gone from one problem in Steve King and it's metastasized. Now they're trying to start a caucus that's sort of based on these -- on these racist ideas. How did this happen? How did this get mainstreamed a bit in your party?
JOHN BOEHNER:
Well, Chuck, I have no idea how this even showed up. I wouldn't call it mainstreamed in our party, but I can tell you that this so-called America First Caucus is one of the nuttiest things I've ever seen. Listen, America is a land of immigration. We've been the world's giant melting pot for 250 years. And we ought to celebrate the fact that we are this giant melting pot. And to see some members of Congress go off and start this America First Caucus is -- it's the silliest thing I've ever seen. And Republicans need to denounce it.
CHUCK TODD:
By their definition, by the way, of immigration, they would basically say there shouldn't be Asian Americans -- citizenship in this country, the way that's described. I don't think people realize how cruel their -- that, that some of that stuff was said there, right Mr. Speaker?
JOHN BOEHNER:
I think it's awfully cruel, and frankly it has no place in the Republican Party. You know, my second-biggest regret during my time as speaker is not being able to come to an agreement with President Obama on an immigration reform bill. Our immigration system is a mess. It's broken from top to bottom. And it needs to be fixed so that it's fairer for Americans who are here and fairer for those who are trying to come here.
CHUCK TODD:
Was it him or was it conservative media? I mean, you know, you wrote this about Roger Ailes. You said, "I just didn't believe the entire federal government was so terrified of Roger Ailes that they'd break about a dozen laws to bring him down. I thought I could get him to control the crazies and instead I found myself talking to the president of the club." Here was the head of Fox News. You were trying to -- you met with him to say, "Hey, can we cool this rhetoric down?" So, you put the blame on President Obama. Isn't it Roger Ailes and the radicalization of what happened on sort of right wing at night that torpedoed immigration?
JOHN BOEHNER:
No, no. Believe me, Chuck, I wanted to get immigration reform done. President Obama wanted to get it done. But again, every time we'd get ready to move, the president would go out and give some speech or he'd loosen up some, some immigration regulation and just kind of set everybody on fire. And that's not a prescription for getting things accomplished in the Congress.
CHUCK TODD:
You have made it clear you voted for President Trump for re-election. You made that decision, in fairness, before January 6th. After watching what you saw happen on January 6th, you still comfortable with that vote?
JOHN BOEHNER:
Well, listen, I cast the vote. It was over and it was done with. I was disappointed in what happened after the election, the president continuing to make claims about the election being stolen. And I kept looking for evidence, like most Americans did. Where's the evidence? How can you keep saying something that -- without providing any proof? And there wasn't any. And clearly on January 6th, it was one of the saddest days in my life, watching the place I have worked -- watching a place where I and my team did everything we could for that institution -- being trashed by a mob.
CHUCK TODD:
Don't you think his actions make it where he forfeited his ability to lead the American democracy?
JOHN BOEHNER:
Listen, Chuck, I'm not in office any more. What he does or doesn't do really is of no interest to me. I'm trying to make sure that Republicans understand, as a Republican Party, we need to go back to the principles of what it means to be a Republican. Things like fiscal responsibility, things like a strong national defense, things that hold Republicans and the Republican Party together and has for the last 150 years. Let's go back to being Republicans.
CHUCK TODD:
Would you ever run for office again?
JOHN BOEHNER:
I'd rather set myself on fire than to run for office again.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, the only reason I asked that question is because I expected an answer just like that. Anyway, former --
JOHN BOEHNER:
You're a s***. You're a s***.
CHUCK TODD:
I assume I'm getting that as a compliment. I'll take that as a backhanded compliment. Former House Speaker John Boehner, it's a pleasure, sir. Thanks for coming on. Good luck with the book and thanks for sharing your perspective with us.
JOHN BOEHNER:
Good to be with you.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, how Republicans are losing their most reliable voters and Democrats are gaining them. Stick with us.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back, Data Download time. We've talked a lot here about how the two political parties are changing, and now, there are new warning signs for the Republicans in that realignment.
In the first quarter of this year, Gallup found that Democrats have a nine-point edge in party identification. It’s the largest gap Gallup’s recorded in a decade. And now, we've seen this before, and it hasn't always stuck. That said, data from the Pew Research Center shows that the shift of college-educated voters from red to blue could indeed have long-term consequences. And here’s why. At the beginning of this century, Republicans held an 11-point edge among this group of voters. By the time Barack Obama was president the figures had flipped, and it became a four-point edge for the Democrats. Then along came President Trump and as he was winding down, Democrats had a whopping 13-point lead among this group of voters. Now here is why this matters. Because Republicans have long counted on the high turnout rates of college-educated suburban voters, especially during midterm and special elections. And yet in 2018, 64 percent of people with a bachelor's degree went to the polls. And watch this. That compares to 52 percent of those with just some college or an associates degree, it’s 39 percent among those high school or less, and it is only 20 percent for those without a high school diploma. All of this could spell trouble for Republicans if they're losing the most reliable voters to the Democrats. We actually may have seen that already in Georgia and in a statewide election in Wisconsin. When we come back: A caucus of Republicans based on Anglo-Saxon -- in other words -- white traditions? Believe it or not, it's being planned.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. You heard Former Speaker Boehner and I get into this topic. Anna Palmer, it was Punchbowl News, your outfit, that reported about this Anglo-Saxon, sort of white nationalist, white supremacist, however you want to describe it. Here's some of the outline of what this Caucus would look like in Congress. A common respect for uniquely Anglo-Saxon political traditions, infrastructure that befits the progeny of European architecture, and post-1965 immigrants decrease the capital to labor ratio. And as I was pointing out, the profound effect that would have on Asian Americans here. Anna Palmer, you put this out and, boy, all of a sudden sunshine does seem to bring out at least some response to this. How are Republicans handling this idea?
ANNA PALMER:
Well, a couple of ways. I think you've seen a lot of the members were potentially going to join it distance themselves from it. You certainly see members like Senate Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy not name this group in particular, but put out tweets trying to say that this is not representative of the Republican Party. But to me, what is important here and stunning is the fact that this used to be just a few outliers in the Republican Party. But now, the fact that they were trying to form a caucus and trying to form a group of members that were going to back this, some even backing it after it became public, said, "Yes, I'm going to join it," that that is becoming more of the mainstream of where the Republican Party is. And it's not where John Boehner, who you just spoke to, you know, is anymore. And that's going to be something they're going to have to deal with going forward.
CHUCK TODD:
Kristen Welker, I know you've been reporting on this. I mean, it's quite the contrast, when you think about an op-ed from Former President George W. Bush today with the headline in The Washington Post, "Immigration is a Defining Asset of the United States." What a contrast in the party.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You're absolutely right. And I spoke to a number of Republicans overnight, Chuck, who were just outraged. They echoed the anger that you heard from the Former House Speaker John Boehner and said, "This is just not representative of the Republican Party." And, of course, this comes against the backdrop of the party looking to rebuild itself, looking to take back the House and the Senate in 2022. And so the deep concern is that even a few people associating themselves with a group like this harms the entire party. And I think the focus is going to be on leadership. I want to go back to something that Anna was just talking about. We did hear from Kevin McCarthy this week, who decried nativist thinking. But I think there's going to be pressure on him, on Leader McConnell who has not commented at all, to come out more forcefully and denounce not just this language, but anyone who would associate themselves with this type of a group, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
David French, look, you heard John Boehner said he didn't want to say it was mainstreamed in the party. But that's the problem here. It looks like the party's more welcoming to this fringe than it ever has been before.
DAVID FRENCH:
Look, I'm going to tell you grim truth here. At the grassroots of part of the party, the grassroots of part of the party is often defined by rage and hatred right now. Conspiracy theories, rage, and hatred. Now, no functioning political party should have a tent big enough to include those people. But I tell you what, if mainstream Republicans repudiate them, the wrath from the grassroots in many of these states, we've seen this. We've seen censures of politicians who condemned January 6th or condemned Trump's role in the insurrection. This is a huge problem in the party. It is one that the party has to deal with decisively. Or it's just flat out not a party worth respecting.
CHUCK TODD:
Eddie, why did it appear and maybe you might reject the premise I asked of Speaker Boehner. But it appeared to me the Republican Party of the '90s and the aughts at least publicly tried to eradicate this wing from the party, whether it was denouncing your David Dukes of the world or trying to get rid of your Steve Kings. Obviously, in hindsight, it didn't work.
EDDIE GLAUDE JR.:
Well, you know, I think it's always been a component of the Republican Party. You think about how did they deal with George Wallace? What is the southern strategy?
CHUCK TODD:
Well, don't forget, Wallace started as a Democrat there.
EDDIE GLAUDE JR.:
Exactly. But I'm just saying, you know, what has been the role of racial dog whistles, right? How do we think about tough on crime, welfare reform? All of these are just ways in which you appeal to grievance and resentment and hatred. So in some ways, that element of the Republican Party has metastasized and overwhelmed the party. But, you know, I'm thinking of Faulkner here, Chuck. Faulkner says, you know, "The past is never past. It's not even dead." And so Anglo-Saxonism has always been a part in the bloodstream of American politics. Just think about late 19th century foreign policy. Think about late 19th century domestic policy. Anglo-Saxonism was everywhere. So we have to finally root it out. We can't dance with it. We can't try to reconcile ourselves to it. We have to banish it from the public once and for all.
CHUCK TODD:
Anna Palmer, are you confident? You know, it wasn't that long ago that a majority of the Republican party was willing to essentially kick Steve King out of the House Republican Conference. We're not there anymore. I mean, do you really think the leadership can successfully eradicate this fringe?
ANNA PALMER:
I think it's going to be extremely difficult because it was just the lone member when it was Steve King. You now have a group of members that also have a very big megaphone here. They aren't just the kind of outliers here. How Kevin McCarthy deals with this is going to be key. He wants to be Speaker in two years. And the fact is, he's going to have to make some really public statements and stake out a claim here. Where is the House Republican Party when it comes to language like this?
CHUCK TODD:
Kristen Welker, very quickly, the Biden White House on Friday, and I have a quick graphic to show it, basically flip-flopped on refugee caps in, like, a five hour span, as you can see here. Lunch time, to before happy hour. What did we learn about Biden's fear of the left?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, we learned that the pressure from progressives is very real. Administration officials acknowledge that they botched the rollout of this. They reject the idea that they have reversed the president's campaign promise to increase the refugee cap. They say that's still going to happen starting May 15th. Bottom line, look for more pressure and also more pressure for immigration reform, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. Terrific panel segment. That's all we have for you today. Thank you for watching. We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.