KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday: new battle lines in Ukraine.
SERGEI LAVROV:
Another stage of this operation is beginning.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Ukrainian fighters holding out in Mariupol.
UKRAINIAN FIGHTER:
We’re still fighting. We destroyed one tank today, two armored fighting vehicles and one armored personnel carrier.
KRISTEN WELKER:
As Russian forces take control of dozens of small towns, President Biden announces another $800 million dollars in U.S. military aid.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
He will never succeed in dominating and occupying all of Ukraine.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And new evidence of Russian war crimes emerges.
WOMAN:
A cemetery of cars.
MAN:
It’s hard to imagine what happened with these people.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I’ll talk to a top advisor to Ukraine's president Zelenskyy, to Deputy National Security Advisor Jon Finer, and to Republican Senator Roy Blunt, who recently returned from the region. Plus, newly released tapes –
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
I’ve had it with this guy.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– show Congressman Kevin McCarthy did want President Trump to resign after January 6th.
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
What he did is unacceptable. Nobody can defend that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Will Mr. Trump still support McCarthy's bid to become speaker? And –
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
We really need to finish delivering on some big deal promises we made during the 2020 election.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I’ll talk to Democratic senator Elizabeth Warren about what she says Democrats need to do to avoid disaster in November. Joining me for insight and analysis are NBC News White House correspondent Carol Lee, former White House political director for President George W. Bush, Sara Fagen, New York Times Chief White House correspondent Peter Baker, and Errin Haines, editor-at-large of the 19th. Welcome to Sunday, it’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. I'm Kristen Welker, filling in for Chuck Todd. While Russia's grand military ambitions may have failed, Vladimir Putin's ability to cause massive destruction and suffering remains undiminished and apparently unsatisfied. Russia launched missile strikes yesterday in a residential area of the port city of Odessa, which until now had been largely spared. Satellite imagery has captured evidence of what appears to be a massive grave site outside of Mariupol, the latest sign of what could be Russian war crimes. Mariupol remains the scene of a desperate stand by Ukrainian fighters holding out against a siege Putin says not even a fly should be allowed to escape from. Russia hopes to capture the eastern Donbas region and, a Russian commander now saying, all of southern Ukraine into neighboring Moldova. President Zelenskyy says U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken and Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin are expected to arrive in Kyiv today for talks on U.S. military assistance. We're going to begin our reporting this morning with a top advisor to President Zelenskyy, Igor Zhovkva, who is in Kyiv this morning. Welcome to Meet The Press. Let's get right to it because we do have a lot to cover, as I just said. President Zelenskyy has said that he's expecting a visit by the secretaries of state and defense. What do they need to accomplish while they're on the ground so that their visit is more than just a photo-op?
IGOR ZHOVKVA:
Well, first and foremost is the delivery of weapons. We are thankful for the U.S. administration for having the deliveries, especially the last two announcements the U.S. president made. And not only for the amount, but also very important is the items which were declared. It is exactly those items, those pieces of weapons we need on fill. We really need armored vehicles. We really need artillery systems and MLRS. We need tanks in order to defend ourselves on the ground, in order to unblock such cities as Mariupol, in order to withstand the potential offensive of Russian armed forces in the Donbas. That's what we need immediately. That's what we need now. And that's what we need in bigger quantities. So, the main subject of the discussion with the two distinguished guests will be delivery of weapons.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Just to be very clear, do you need more of the weapons that you're getting or do you need different weapons?
IGOR ZHOVKVA:
No, the weapons that we get now from the U.S. is almost these kinds of weapons which we need. We definitely need some more weapons in terms of defending the sky over Ukraine because NATO countries refuse to close the skies over Ukraine. So, we also need anti-missile systems and anti-aircraft systems because daily and nightly Ukrainian cities are bombarded by the cruise missiles. You mentioned Odessa yesterday. Just eight victims, eight victims and more than 18 wounded, one family, a grandmother, a mother, and a child, a girl, three months. So, yesterday, the Russian missile hit the multi-story buildings. So, we badly also need the equipment to protect our sky.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's talk about what else is happening on the ground there. We know that Russia has said that it now controls Mariupol, a key port city. Ukrainian officials have pushed back against that. They say that's not the case. And in fact, there are still Ukrainian forces that are holed up in a steel plant there that was bombarded overnight. Can you give us the reality check though? Does Russia now have enough control of Mariupol that it controls it?
IGOR ZHOVKVA:
No, that's false. Russia does not control the whole city of Mariupol, though it controls some part of the city of Mariupol. Ukrainian armed forces are still in town. They are concentrated now mainly on the Azovstal steel plant. And they are concentrated there together with the civilians. And many of the Ukrainian soldiers are wounded. My president suggested several times to have humanitarian corridors in order to evacuate the civilians which are left on the Azovstal steel plant and the wounded soldiers. He proposed to exchange them for the Russian wounded soldiers which are in the possession of Ukraine. No reaction. Today, we again turned to Russian authorities to open the humanitarian corridors for civilians, including for civilians who are living in the city of Mariupol because more than 100,000 civilians are still left in the city. And the city is almost wiped out and people are living without elementary conditions, without food, without water supply, without electricity. So, that's what we badly need and that's where we need the attention of the international communities.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mr. Zhovkva, let me ask you about what we are hearing from a top Russian commander who warned on Friday that Russia's goal is to capture the east and the south and to create a land corridor that stretches all the way into Moldova. Is that what you're bracing for?
IGOR ZHOVKVA:
Their first aim was to capture, if not all Ukraine, but the major parts of Ukraine, including the capital city of Kyiv, the city of Kharkiv, city of Odessa and so--
KRISTEN WELKER:
But do you think they're moving into Moldova, Mr. Zhovkva? Are they moving into Moldova?
IGOR ZHOVKVA:
Well, I mean, they can move anywhere they want, but we will not let them do this because, I mean, capturing the whole Donbas is their dream starting from 2014. I have to remind you that the war started not in 2022. The actual war of Russia started in 2014 by capturing the Crimea and part of Donbas. So, yes, now they want to capture the whole Donbas. Yes, they want to have the connection between Donbas and the Crimea. As far as Moldova is concerned, yes, we heard those announcements of Russian officials. Who knows? You never know with Russia. But yes, that would be a high possibility.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It was reported on Friday that the U.N. secretary general will meet with President Putin this coming week to try to negotiate a peace deal. Does the U.N. secretary general, is he authorized to speak on behalf of the Ukrainian government?
IGOR ZHOVKVA:
Not really. Not really. And this is not a good idea to travel to Moscow. We do not understand his intention to travel to Moscow and to talk to President Putin.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So, are there any hopes for these peace talks? Are there any hopes for these peace talks? What's the purpose then?
IGOR ZHOVKVA:
Well, I cannot tell you. I mean, any peace talks are good if they end with a result. I really doubt if those peace talks organized by the secretary general of the U.N. would end up with any result. The U.N. should do more, not only in terms of political things, but in terms of humanitarian needs. The U.N. is lagging behind in Ukraine in terms of humanitarian support to my country. So, it would be good if the U.N. secretary general would concentrate on these things as well.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. Mr. Zhovkva, top advisor to President Zelenskyy, thank you so much for joining us this morning on Meet The Press.
IGOR ZHOVKVA:
Many thanks.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And joining me now is Deputy National Security Advisor Jon Finer. Jon, good to see you. Welcome to Meet the Press.
JON FINER:
Thanks for having me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thanks for being here. So let's start with President Zelenskyy saying that he is expecting a visit by the secretaries of state and defense. And he was very clear. He says, quote, "They should not come here with empty hands, not just presents and cakes, but with specific weapons." What will they be offering, specifically, on this trip?
JON FINER:
Well, Kristen, I'd say a few things. One is that we are in very close contact, many of us, with our Ukrainian counterparts, including those two secretaries, including the president and President Zelenskyy at all times. We've also been quite clear that if we were going to take some sort of high-level visit to Ukraine, we would not be announcing that in advance. So I suspect that'll be a bit of an unsatisfying answer, but nothing to say further about that. In terms of empty hands, I would point to the last two weeks and, really, the last ten days, when the United States has announced $1.6 billion in additional security assistance that is having a significant effect on the ground in terms of enabling Ukraine to continue to hold off and push back Russian forces.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Jon, we've been talking about the possibility of a high-level trip for quite some time. If such a trip were to occur at some point, would there need to be deliverables in order for it to be effective?
JON FINER:
We have been announcing deliverables, which is a fancy word for things that we are providing to the Ukrainians to enable their fight, just about every day, and if not every day, every week. And we will have more to say about that in the week ahead.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You just heard Mr. Zhovkva say that Russia does not have complete control of Mariupol. Is that the U.S. assessment as well?
JON FINER:
I would defer to the Ukrainians, who have a much closer kind of ground-level view of what's happening in Mariupol. Our understanding is that Russian forces and Ukrainian forces are continuing to fight in that city. And we are continuing to try to get the Ukrainians as much assistance as possible to enable them in that fight.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I want to ask you about this Russian official saying that the goal now is to try to build a land bridge into Moldova. Is it your assessment that that's a real threat? How concerned is the Biden administration about that possibility?
JON FINER:
Well, I think it's important to take a step back, as my Ukrainian counterpart did, and point to the shifting Russian war aims over time. We know very well that Russia's initial intention was to take over if not all of Ukraine, the vast majority of it, to topple the government. Because of the resistance that they've met on the ground, again, enabled by U.S. assistance and the very brave fighting by the Ukrainian forces, they've had to adjust. So they are now focused on the south and the east. That's quite clear.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And are they going into Moldova as well, do you believe?
JON FINER:
I think where they go from here remains to be seen. But they are a long way from cities like Odessa and certainly from Moldova, to your earlier question. They have a lot of fighting still to do. And we think the Ukrainians are going to be very effective in fending them off.
KRISTEN WELKER:
If they did move into Moldova or made moves in that direction, would that change the United States's strategy, at this point, toward Ukraine?
JON FINER:
I think we've shown an ability to be nimble, to adjust our assistance and our approach as the Russian war aims have evolved. And we will continue to do that over time, depending on how things evolve on the battlefield.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Is the U.S. policy objective right now for Ukraine to defeat Russia? Can you say that definitively?
JON FINER:
So I can say our objective is to continue to enable the types of activity that allowed Ukrainians to win a victory in the battle for Kyiv. Russia intended to take over the capital of Ukraine, to topple the Ukrainian government. The Ukrainians won that battle. We think that exact approach is going to be the way we follow through in the battles ahead, now focused on the south and the east.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, so then, by that logic, is the broader policy goal to see Ukraine defeat Russia writ large?
JON FINER:
In our view, Russia has already lost, has already lost many of its initial war aims. They have intended to divide the West. They have resulted in a West and a NATO alliance that is much more united than it's ever been. They thought that they would unsettle, and undermine, and maybe even overthrow the Ukrainian government. President Zelenskyy is firmly entrenched in power and the Ukrainian democracy continues. Russia is more isolated in the world. Its economy is weaker. They are failing at virtually every one of their initial objectives. And our objective is going to be to continue that trend.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And you just heard Mr. Zhovkva express real skepticism about the UN secretary general holding talks with Putin. How is the administration viewing those talks? Are you skeptical or do you think that there could be some progress that comes out of those talks?
JON FINER:
Well, I think a very important principle for any negotiations and any discussions, diplomatically, on the conflict of Ukraine is that Ukrainians should be the touchstone. There should be nothing that goes on about the conflict in Ukraine without close consultation and involvement of the Ukrainian government.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You just heard Mr. Zhovkva say that the UN secretary general is not authorized to speak on behalf of Ukraine. So is there any point to these talks?
JON FINER:
Again, I defer to the Ukrainians on what their conversations have been with the United Nations. We're in very close consultation with the Ukrainians and our other partners and allies. And we'll be proceeding along those lines.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about these new satellite images which appear to show evidence of one, potentially two mass graves outside of Mariupol. Has the U.S. assessed that we are, in fact, looking at mass graves? Are these evidence of more war crimes, here, Jon?
JON FINER:
So we've been quite clear that we have seen significant evidence of atrocities, of war crimes. You've heard very strong language come out of our administration about a number of the tactics the Russians are using, deliberately targeting civilians in places like Mariupol and elsewhere. That would be wholly consistent with how Russia has been prosecuting this war from the beginning.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Have you confirmed that that's new evidence of new mass graves?
JON FINER:
Yeah, I've got nothing to announce on that specific allegation --
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay.
JON FINER:
– but it is wholly consistent with everything that we've seen Russia doing, and it should stop.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And as you well know, President Zelenskyy has asked the Biden administration to declare Russia a state sponsor of terrorism. What is the latest update? Is the administration prepared to do that at this point?
JON FINER:
So I think we've been clear that we're looking at that, as we're looking at a whole range of other, additional steps that we could take to hold Russia accountable for the crimes that it's perpetrating on the ground in Ukraine. But I would also say that we are not waiting for those determinations to be made in order to start imposing costs on Russia. Costs that, at this point, outside analysts have said is going to lead to a 15% or more reduction in Russia's GDP over the course of the year and that Russia's own officials are saying the impacts are going to continue to intensify in the weeks and months ahead.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Jon Finer, good to see you. Thank you so much for joining Meet the Press. Really appreciate it.
JON FINER:
Thanks very much.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And as we mentioned, the U.S. is providing another $800 million in military aid to Ukraine. We just talked about that with Jon Finer. President Biden announced the aid package on Thursday.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
The battle of Kyiv was a historic victory for the Ukrainians. It was a victory for freedom, won by the Ukrainian people, with unprecedented assistance by the United States and our allies and our partners. Now – now we have to accelerate that assistance package to help prepare Ukraine for Russia's offensive that's going to be more limited in terms of geography, but not in terms of brutality, not in terms of brutality.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And joining me now is Republican Senator Roy Blunt of Missouri, who recently returned from the region. Senator Blunt, welcome back to Meet the Press. Good to see you.
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
Well, Kristen, great to be with you. You know, the three big surprises, I think, of what's happened in the last two months is the incredible resistance of the Ukrainians, the almost rebirth of NATO, and the lack of performance of the Russian military. I'm sure Putin's surprised by that, and frankly, I think we are, too. I've been on intel for about ten years and we didn't have any suggestion that any of those three things would happen in the level that they have.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, and you did just return from the region. And now, of course, President Zelenskyy has said he's anticipating a visit from the secretaries of state and defense. The Biden administration not confirming that visit, but assuming that it does, in fact, happen, what needs to happen in order for that visit to be effective, to bear fruit?
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
Well, I think you always want to have some deliverable when you have a visit like that, but in this case --
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you expect they will? Do you expect they will?
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
Well, I think they'll probably be able to announce some things about equipment, about speeding up our efforts there. In this case, it's just a deliverable to go. And you know, I think it's a good thing if they go, and when they go. I think we ought to be thinking about reopening our embassy there. And if the Ukrainian people can stay, I think our diplomats are willing to be there. I met with a number of them just last week. I think they're a little bit frustrated that they're barely outside the country, but they're outside the country and trying to manage all of the efforts of American volunteers. There's several hundred American volunteer groups trying to help people get food and shelter and clothing. And those Americans are there and I think our – the people that represent our country officially can safely be there now as well.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, let me ask you about something you said earlier this week. The White House downplayed Russia test-firing an ICBM, an intercontinental ballistic missile. But you said this week of Vladimir Putin, quote, "He doesn't want to start a nuclear war." What gives you that confidence?
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
Well, one, I think he's seen what happens in the war he started that he thought he would win in a week. He's not prepared for that. They don't have an – they don’t have an economy that will support that. They've got more than they can deal with right now. And you know, this --
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you have hard evidence to believe that? Or is that your gut?
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
This is just my – my instinct. He also said this week, when Finland talked about – and Sweden talked about joining NATO, "Well, if that happens, we won’t be – Scandinavia will no longer be a nuclear-free area." It's just ridiculous, you know. They’ve got – at Kaliningrad, they've got nuclear capacity there. He's a bully. He's a bully and he keeps coming up with some new threat. Frankly, I think, Kristen, it's time Putin began to worry about what we would do rather than us worrying as much about what he would do. And we need to stop saying what we won't do. Even if we know we don’t – won't do it, there's no reason to ever tell your adversary in a situation like that where your – where your red lines are.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, let me ask you about the big story this week impacting your party. This is this new audio tape that we heard from the top Republican in the House, Leader Kevin McCarthy. It began with these revelations in the new book, “This Will Not Pass.” The authors released audio in which we hear McCarthy, days after January 6th, saying this about then-president Trump. Take a listen. I'll get your reaction on the other side.
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
Okay.
[BEGIN TAPE]
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY:
We know it'll pass the House. I think there's a chance it'll pass the Senate, even when he's gone. The only discussion I would have with him is that I think this will pass, and it would be my recommendation you should resign.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
For context, I think it's important to point out that, before the audio was released, McCarthy said that the words were totally false. He's now said that the tape was taken out of context. We understand that he's spoken to former President Trump. They've mended fences. But you just heard the audio, Senator Blunt. Given the disconnect, how can Americans believe what the top Republican in the House says?
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
Well, a lot of people were saying a lot of things in that two weeks. I haven't talked to the majority leader – the minority leader in the House about this, but he's been close Trump. Frankly, when I first heard this, I thought anybody who's been as close to President Trump as Kevin McCarthy was would know that the last thing that Donald Trump was going to do was either resign or quit. It was a – it was a pathway. With ten days to the end of this term, there was no way that was going to happen. And I was, frankly, sort of surprised that Kevin would even suggest it might be a realistic suggestion to make to President Trump.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Is it a credibility problem, though, that he came out and denied it and now there's tape that the world has heard that disproves his denial?
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
Well, you'll have to ask him that. My guess is you don't remember every conversation you're in exactly the way it occurred. And maybe you remember it the way you want it to occur. But you know, I've been in – you know, I’m only one of two people in the history of the country who've been elected leaders in both the House and Senate. I've never been in a leadership meeting where you felt like you couldn't think out loud. And apparently they have a leadership where you can't think out loud.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Could it – could it doom his chances, though, to become the next Speaker of the House, should Republicans win back the House?
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
I think it depends on the margin in the House.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So, it could?
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
Anything could impact that. You know, when you want to be speaker, you don't just get a majority of your members. You have to get almost all of your members. And that's challenging. But I will tell you this, I think a lot of things will happen between now and November. I think one thing that's likely to happen is Republicans will be in the majority. And if that happens, nobody will have worked harder to make that happen than Congressman McCarthy has.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about the Senate and Leader McConnell. Apparently, according to the same book, “This Will Not Pass,” said to two long-time advisors at the time, the days after January 6th, quote, "The Democrats are going to take care of the SOB for us." He said Donald Trump's behavior, quote, "If this isn't impeachable, I don't know what is." You are close to Leader McConnell. Is that consistent with what he was saying to you at the time?
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
You know, I never heard him say anything like that. He's a fairly closely held guy. At the end of the day, he didn't vote for impeachment. And you know, the Democrats were trying to impeach somebody who was already out of office. And I think my view has been if President Trump did anything that was illegal, there's a process for that, but you don't remove people from office who are already out of office.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, but was it your gut reaction, senator, and again, you were involved in the broader conversations within your chamber --
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
Uh-huh (Affirm).
KRISTEN WELKER:
– that his actions were potentially worthy of conviction. Apparently McConnell said he was considering that. Did you consider that for a moment?
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
No. Not --
KRISTEN WELKER:
You never considered convicting former President Trump?
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
Well, one, it's not my job. And two, what I've said about that, whether it was President Trump or the people who inappropriately attacked the Capitol, anybody who committed a crime there, either planned a crime or committed a crime, there is a process for that. And I'm not suggesting that President Trump did either of those things, but there's a process for that and it's not a political process; it's a judicial and legal process. I've been fully supportive of the Justice Department effort to prosecute people who were in the Capitol, and I've also added to that people who somehow were illegally planning activities on that day.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Did you ever hear Leader McConnell say he believed there may be enough votes for conviction?
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
No.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. Let me ask you because former President Trump was out on the campaign trail last night.
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
Uh-huh (Affirm).
KRISTEN WELKER:
He's endorsed more than 140 candidates. Just last night, he repeated some of those mistruths about the election. Do you think – if he is the Republican nominee, would you vote for him?
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
Well, it’s – we're a long time to that. And of course, I'll be out of politics by then. I'm not sure how active I'm going to be in politics in the future, but I've always voted for the Republican nominee in the past, and we'll see what happens.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You've always voted for the Republican nominee in the past. Will you do so again, no matter who the nominee is?
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
Well, there's going to be another nominee, and that will be the Democrat nominee. And that's the choice you have to make. So, I would expect I'd be supporting the Republican nominee.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Will you commit to supporting the Republican nominee even if it's Donald Trump?
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
Well, you know, it's a long time between now and then. Overnight's a long time in politics and so, I can't imagine that I won't, you know. But Donald Trump got elected because he satisfied people's need to send a message about their frustration with government. If he's the nominee again, that'll be because people are still frustrated with government and there aren't other Republicans who meet that – that need. We'll just have to see what happens between now and then.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator Roy Blunt, so good to see you. Thank you for being here --
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
Great to see you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– and for your insights this morning. Appreciate it. When we come back, the outlook for Democrats in November's midterm election is bleak right now. Senator Elizabeth Warren says she has a plan to fix that. I'll talk to the Massachusetts Democrat. That's next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. Senator Elizabeth Warren ran her 2020 presidential campaign promoting the idea of big structural change. And she hasn't given up on that idea. In the New York Times this past week, the Massachusetts Democrat wrote, quote, "Democrats cannot bow to the wisdom of out of touch consultants who recommended we simply tout our accomplishments. Instead, Democrats need to deliver more of the president's agenda, or else we will not be in the majority much longer." Among Warren's progressive goals, higher taxes for big corporations, an end to corporate price gouging, some student debt cancellation and lowering prescription drug prices. And Elizabeth Warren joins me now. Senator, welcome back to Meet the Press. Good to see you.
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
Thank you. Good to see you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You write in your op-ed, Senator Warren, "Republican senators and broken institutions," you blame them for blocking the progress Democrats had promised. But Democrats control the House, the Senate and the White House. So why aren't Democrats responsible for breaking their own promises to voters, Senator?
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
Look, my point is not to look in the rear view mirror. My point is to say we've got nearly 200 days left between now and the election. And there are families who are trying to make the decision at the check out line which groceries to send back because they can't afford them. There are millions of people across this country who are saying they are not ready for student loan payments to be turned back on. They simply can't afford them. There are millions of people across this country who say that prices at the pump, prices to try to buy a pound of hamburger, have all gone up, and they need help. Democrats ran and always run on trying to make government work for working people. We've got nearly 200 days left. That's what we need to put our energy on.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, I'm going to ask you --
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
If we don't, then we haven't been there. So that's what we need to do.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, I'm going to delve into inflation, what you just mentioned, in a moment. But I want to just get down to brass tax, what a deal might actually look like. Senator Manchin, of course, whose support you would need for any deal, has said he's open to supporting legislation that addresses just three things: climate change, prescription drug costs and lowering the deficit. Could you support a narrower version of a package that leaves out some of your priorities like universal pre-K and expanded child tax credits?
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
Look, some of the things we want to do are attack inflation head on. And one of the ways that we attack inflation head on is we bring down costs for families. So for example, putting money into childcare so that millions of women can go back to work expands our capacity, expands the number of people in the workforce. And that actually helps drive down inflation.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, I understand those are, those are your priorities–
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
So that's one of the things we want to talk about.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Those are your priorities. And yet, negotiations have been stalled since December. Senator Manchin, to some extent, Senator Sinema have said they're not going to support one of the things that you just mentioned because they are concerned it would add to the deficit. It would make inflation worse. Would you commit to a narrower package, that package that I just laid out – can you just tell me, would you be able to vote for a bill that only included those three things, climate change, prescription drugs, and lowering the deficit?
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
So the point I'm trying to make is that we need to do more. Yes, we need to do climate change. Yes, we need to do prescription drugs. And we need to make sure that we're paying for it by making sure that giant corporations that make billions of dollars in profits and pay nothing in taxes are actually paying a minimum tax – and yes, Amazon, I'm looking at you in that one – and other corporations. Look, we need to also authorize the FTC so they can go after companies that are price gouging. And we need to remember that it's not only what Congress can do. It's also what the administration can do. Millions of people need their student loan debt cancelled. Mr. President, today would be a great day to cancel $50,000 in student loan debt for tens of millions of people across this country. My point is that we have nearly 200 days. And not just one negotiation going on. We should have multiple negotiations going on. There is a lot we can deliver for American families. And we need to make that happen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about student loan cancellation, which you have been talking about for quite some time. You want the president to do it unilaterally. Two Obama-era economists, Senator Warren, Jason Furman and Larry Summers have warned against the president's extension of the student loan moratoriums during this kind of inflation, saying, quote, it's “regressive” and “adding fuel to the fire” of inflation. You are calling for more, though. Why does this spending make sense at this time when Americans are desperate for prices to come down?
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
Actually, what I'm calling for is to cancel a big chunk of student loan debt.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But they say it'll --
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
And the reason we need to cancel --
KRISTEN WELKER:
– add to inflation. They say that'll add to inflation, Senator.
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
No, actually not paying student loan debts has already been baked in. But what matters is how we're going to be out there helping millions of American people. You know, keep in mind, 40% of the folks who have student loan debt do not have a college diploma. These are people who tried, but life happened – you know, pregnancies and working three jobs and mom got sick and they had to move to another city – all those things. But now, they earn what a high school grad earns and they are trying to manage college level debt. In addition to that, we know that there's huge racial inequality here. African Americans borrow more money to go to school, borrow more money while they're in school, have a harder time paying it off when they get out. It is the job of Democrats, it is the job of the party in power to help make people's lives better. We --
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator --
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
– can do that. And the president can do that one all by himself.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator Warren, we learned this week in a leaked memo that Bernie Sanders is not ruling out a run in 2024 if President Biden decides he's not running. We want to be very clear, President Biden has said he's absolutely running. Here you are out with this op-ed. Are you ruling out a run in 2024, should President Biden decide he's not going to make another go?
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
I'm not running for president in 2024. I'm running for Senate. President Biden is running for re-election in 2024 --
KRISTEN WELKER:
So would you rule it out, Senator?
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
– and I'm supporting him.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Would you rule it out?
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
You can ask it any way you want, but I'm going to say the same thing. President Biden is running in 2024 and I'm supporting him.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay.
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
Cheerfully.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You heard my conversation with Senator Blunt about House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy. It was notable in your op-ed, you yourself had sharp words about the Democratic Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi for her previous opposition to legislation that would ban members of Congress from owning and trading stocks. Now, of course, she says she now supports that legislation. But it does raise the question, do you have confidence in House Speaker Nancy Pelosi?
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
Yes, but let's be clear. One of the things that we should be doing as Democrats is restoring some confidence in Congress. And the way we can do that is to ban all individual stock ownership, stock trading, buying, selling of any kind. And that's true for every member of Congress and true for their spouses. It's a step we can take right now to help restore some confidence that when people in Congress act, they're not acting to try to line their own pockets. They're acting on behalf of the American people.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Does --
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
That would be a good thing for us to deliver.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Let me ask you about something that everyone, really, has been talking about all week. That is masks. As you know, this Florida court ruled that the mask mandate was unlawful. There was a lot of confusion that followed that. Now, of course, the Biden administration is appealing that decision because the CDC has said that it's necessary from a health perspective. Are you satisfied that the Biden administration provided enough clarity on this issue when people really need it?
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
You know, I want to be clear about what's happening in the court case. And that is, I believe it's important that it is the CDC and our health professionals, who are well-trained, who have all the data, who spend their lives in this area, are making the decision about what we need to do to protect public health. And not a single judge off in Florida. And I think that's what the appeal is about. I don't think it's about getting masks back on people's faces right this minute. It's about making sure that over the long haul, when we don't know what comes next in Covid – or heck, we don't even know what comes after Covid – we want to make sure that health care decisions and public health decisions are being made by public health officials, not a single judge sitting off by herself somewhere in Florida.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator Elizabeth Warren, we covered a lot of ground today. Thank you so much for joining Meet the Press. Really appreciate it.
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
Thank you for having me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And when we come back, the Kevin McCarthy tapes heard around the world, or at least around the world of Washington and Mar-a-lago. The panel is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is here. NBC News White House Correspondent Carol Lee, Errin Haines, editor at large of The 19th, Former White House Political Director for President George W. Bush Sara Fagen, New York Times Chief White House correspondent Peter Baker. Thanks to all of you for being here. Great to see you. I want to start off talking about Leader McCarthy. We've now all heard the audio where he talked about the possibility of calling former President Trump and asking him to resign. He's out and basically saying this tape was taken out of context. Here's what he had to say.
[BEGIN TAPE]
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY:
No. I've never asked the president to resign. I never thought he should resign. What I was asked on a phone call was about the process, the 25th amendment, whether someone would impeach, we walked through ifs, ands, or buts. It was never in the process to ask President Trump to resign.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Carol, as you know, Leader McCarthy wants to become speaker of the House if Republicans win back the House. Does this doom his prospects?
CAROL LEE:
Look, it's too soon to know exactly what this does to his ambitions to be speaker of the House. Republicans obviously first have to win the House in November. But President Trump has a huge say in how this goes. And a lot can happen between now and that vote. If it happens in January, the Republicans that I have talked to who are close to the president in the last few days said that McCarthy is on the edge, but he hasn't gone over the edge yet. But they leave open that possibility that the former president could eventually get there. And also I'd say that, you know, the president is surprisingly, to them, not angry, but sees this as, everybody was saying this sort of stuff at the time. As long as those who came around very early and sided with him, then he's okay with that. But one interesting thing that I found, the president came out in an interview with the Wall Street Journal and said that he didn't like what McCarthy had to say, but it was said. But he was asked, "Will you still support him for speaker?" And he said, "Well, you know, I don't know. Is anyone else running?" And it was just this shade. And when I asked somebody close to the president about that, they said, "Look, he always holds something in his pocket. And you don't know what else is out there. And he likes to dangle something over people who need him." And that's what he's doing here.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Peter, Carol hits at something that I think was a theme of the Trump administration when we all covered him, which is that he may say something on day one but it may evolve.
PETER BAKER:
Yes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What he's saying right now might not be how he feels in another month or so.
PETER BAKER:
Yeah. Evolve is a nice word for it. Yes. Absolutely. If you were Kevin McCarthy's, you know, campaign manager, you wouldn't count on anything at this point. Look, we saw Kevin McCarthy do this in real time. We saw him get up on the floor of the House during the impeachment after January 6 and said the president bears responsibility for this. He voted against impeachment, but he made very clear that he was angry at the president at the time. And then a week later, he goes to Mar-a-Lago and poses for a picture, and suddenly all is happiness and light again. So we have seen him flip flop, in effect, on his view of former President Trump. But tape brings it home in sharp relief, right? And the thing I was struck by as much as anything else was it said a lot about this era right now that it was better for Kevin McCarthy to be caught out in a lie, denying something he actually said, than to be caught out saying something negative about President Trump. Because he was more worried about that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Sara Fagen, go ahead --
ERRIN HAINES
I was going to say, as soon as those receipts came out, you see, you know, Kevin McCarthy apologizing to President Trump, then trying to kind of smooth over that relationship. I mean, this week really kind of brings into sharp relief where the Republican Party is, right? From Kevin McCarthy having to apologize to then Trump at this rally in Ohio with a very fervent base still, and speaking to, you know, people who may have disagreed or said that he was wrong or bears some responsibility. But quickly kind of coming around to his point of view because they understand that he still wields power over this party.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's hear his sound. In fact, he was out stumping for JD Vance, one of the candidates in Ohio. And he made that point, I think, really so clearly. He just said it. Let's take a listen, and Sara, get your reaction.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
You know what? He's the guy that said some bad s*** about me. He did. He did. But you know what? Every one of the others did, also. In fact, if I went by that standard, I don't think I would have ever endorsed anybody in the country, if you want to know. They all said bad, but they all came back.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And the "he" he's talking about there is JD Vance, Sara. But what does this say about Trump's grip on the Republican Party right now?
SARA FAGEN:
Well, there's no doubt that he is still the dominant figure in the party. And that is going to continue until the next presidential campaign. And he may be a candidate for that, and he may continue to be the dominant Republican. But somebody else might also emerge. I mean, it's just not in the interest of these candidates to pick a fight with Trump. It hasn't ended well for anybody in office to go at President Trump directly. And so what you see playing out here by these candidates, by hopeful Speaker McCarthy is that in their political interests, there's no point in it. And so they quickly try to move on. And that's the smart political thing for them to do.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And what's interesting is this moment, he almost seems to be emboldened by it, saying, "I can win them over."
SARA FAGEN:
Well, Trump has always been quick to anger and quick to forgiveness. You know, what Trump measures is do you like him. And do you like him in the moment. And he seems to sort of feed on the fight. And he enjoys the fight. And he enjoys winning. And ultimately, what happens here is that he gets members who are at odds with him, sometimes over very legitimate things, to kind of placate and come back around. And in some ways, you can become more esteemed in President Trump's eyes by doing that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Looming over all of this are these culture wars. We saw this play out this week in Florida where they essentially voted to remove this special status of Disney World for disagreeing with this law that bans discussion of gender and sexuality in schools through the third grade. What critics call the, “Don't Say Gay Bill”. Carol, how much, as we talk about the midterms, are culture wars going to factor in?
CAROL LEE:
Look, there are Republicans who think that the culture wars are a winner for them, particularly on the transgender issues when it comes to parents. I spoke with one Republican strategist over the weekend who said if it's culture wars and immigration, it's over. We win. There are Republicans, though, who are concerned about the short-term benefits of that, don't play out in the long term. But Democrats are struggling to come up with a response to all of this.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And Errin, why are Democrats still struggling? Because we saw this particularly in the Virginia governor's race, for example. Culture wars were front and center. And yet, Terry McAuliffe, the Democratic candidate for governor, really struggled to find his footing on how to address it.
ERRIN HAINES:
Yeah. And that's exactly, Republicans know that Democrats don't have a response to the culture wars, right? And so they are continuing to do this. You're seeing this, whether it's Governor Abbott out of Texas or Governor DeSantis out of Florida. They know that talking about these things that really galvanize their voters is something that has been played to effect. It is a feature, not a bug of the Republican playbook going into November.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. And we do have much more to discuss. Coming up, the battle over mask mandates. Who gets to make the rules? That's when we come back.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. We want to note the passing yesterday of former Senator Orrin Hatch. The Utah Republican was first elected in 1976 and served seven terms along with seven presidents. A child of the Depression who grew up in abject poverty, Hatch became a leading conservative voice as the country moved to the right during his long Senate career. He was a regular on Meet the Press, appearing 32 times in his career. Hatch was the longest-serving Republican in Senate history and left on his own terms.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SENATOR ORRIN HATCH:
We must restore the culture of comity, compromise, and mutual respect that used to exist here—and still does in some respects. Both in our personal and public conduct, we must be the very change we want to see in the country. We must not be enemies but friends.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Powerful words there. Orrin Hatch was 88.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. We do want to note that in France today a struggling President Emmanuel Macron is up for reelection. His opponent is the far right Marine Le Pen, who was once a fringe figure but now has a legitimate shot at winning the presidency. Le Pen is critical of NATO, an admirer of Vladimir Putin, and could seriously complicate the West's support of Ukraine. And, Peter Baker, the White House is watching this very closely, this election.
PETER BAKER:
Yes. Yes, they are. And, look, you know, we don't have any exit polls yet from the election. President Macron went in with a lead of around 13 points. He's likely to win this round. But the fact that she could get 42, 45 percent of the vote says a lot. It says a lot about where France is and says a lot about where Europe is right now in this confrontation with Russia. There's a lot of sentiment out there that is not in keeping with the unified tone of NATO against Russia, and that's a worry for President Biden and the West generally.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And add it to the list of crises and complications that the Biden administration is dealing with right now. And, Sara Fagen, I spoke with Senator Warren about the mask issue this week, the fact that there was so much confusion over what to do in the wake of this Florida decision that the Biden administration has now appealed.
SARA FAGEN:
Well, I mean, we're at a point in this pandemic, you know, two-plus years in, where the public is exhausted. And confusion has been a theme throughout this entire pandemic, where we've seen the CDC and government—both administrations—put out pretty conflicting advice. And so the public gets on an airplane and says, "Half the plane has their mask off because they're eating or drinking but somehow we have to keep the masks on? It just doesn't make sense." And with the era of vaccines and boosters, people need to be able to make their own decisions and these health bureaucrats should not be making these decisions. And to allow this to continue, just the public is exhausted from it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Errin.
ERRIN HAINES:
People may be done with Covid, but Covid is not done with us. I think that that is something that is clear. What is not clear though is guidance from our government. At the federal, state, local level, you've got a lot of conflicting messages, right? This is particularly concerning for parents and for other people who are vulnerable who really are looking for a consistent message on what they are supposed to do, and this is taking us back to an era where there was a lot of confusion and people were really kind of having to navigate this on their own.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You were in Philly, where there was real whiplash.
ERRIN HAINES:
Literally. Just a matter of days, it felt like hours, that the City of Philadelphia had gone from restoring the mask mandate, becoming like the first big city to do that, to then suddenly saying, "Oh, no, no, no, no. Never mind. Cases are down suddenly. We're going to go ahead and take that mandate down."
KRISTEN WELKER:
Carol?
CAROL LEE:
For the Biden administration, just politically and practically, they put themselves in a box by saying that they were going to follow the science and let the CDC take the lead. They constantly put things in the CDC's lap. This is another one of them. Even the Justice Department did that.
They waited for the CDC to say, "Yes, we want you to appeal this on the grounds that we want to have this authority going forward." When you talk to White House officials, there is this sort of frustration with the fact that they did put themselves in this box and now they're stuck with trying to manage it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
They seemed flat footed this week –
CAROL LEE :
Oh, they were.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– when the decision came in.
CAROL LEE:
Yes, they were caught off guard by this decision to begin with.
SARA FAGEN:
But the situation in Philadelphia, I think, is really what this is about. It’s, you have governments going in and imposing mandates—or keeping mandates—and the people are upset. This is politicians reacting to voters. This is what this is. We saw it in D.C. You know, all of a sudden, masks came off schools, and it happened very quickly. And even as the cases are spreading, which they have been here, they're not going back.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Peter, final to you. How does this loom and weigh in over the midterms? Because this is an issue that is not going away.
PETER BAKER:
Well, it's not going away. To Errin's point, Covid is not done with us. I think we're done with mandates. The Biden administration is just as happy to have the mandates go away because they know that politically it's just a mess. But they don't want to give up the authority legally, so they're going to appeal to do that. But it hangs over everything. If Covid is on the way back, especially if these cases are spreading – I think almost everybody in my wife's family has it right now. My son has it. It means that there is a continued damper on the public mood and spirit, where they want to be past this. And that has an impact on people in power. That doesn't help in an election if the public is sour about the way things are going in the country, even though you have a lot of good things you can talk about.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Fantastic panel. Thank you all for being here. I really appreciate it. That is all for today. Thank you for watching. We do want to say a very big happy birthday to Chuck Todd, and Chuck will be back next week, because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.