CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday: After the verdict.
JUDGE PETER CAHILL:
Guilty. Guilty. Guilty
CHUCK TODD:
The country exhales.
DEMONSTRATOR:
It feels like we just got a breath of fresh air. Like for the first time it feels like we can breathe.
DEMONSTRATOR:
I feel good. We got justice.
CHUCK TODD:
But does Derek Chauvin's guilty verdict indicate real change or was it an isolated high-profile event?
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK:
The jury did its job and hopefully we here in the Congress will do our job and pass criminal justice reform.
CHUCK TODD:
This morning, we'll hear what the verdict means to many African Americans --
GWEN CARR:
I was happy that the nation could see that there may be a change coming about.
CHUCK TODD:
-- and I'll talk to Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota. Baltimore Police Commissioner Michael Harrison and historian Keith Mayes from the University of Minnesota. Plus --
DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY:
We are no longer recommending a pause to the Johnson and Johnson vaccine.
CHUCK TODD:
-- the CDC recommends a warning label for the J&J vaccine about a rare blood-clotting disorder. With vaccination rates already falling --
GENE GUAY:
I am still not sure about that.
CHUCK TODD:
-- will the J&J episode contribute to increased vaccine hesitancy?
DR. FRANCIS COLLINS:
It is alarming that this is so widespread at a time where we're right on the edge of being able to get past this disease or not.
CHUCK TODD:
My guest this morning: Director of the National Institutes of Health, Dr. Francis Collins. And our new NBC News poll, where President Biden stands nearly 100 days into his administration, the early successes and the early warning signs. Joining me for insight and analysis are: Washington Post columnist Eugene Robinson, NBC News correspondent Morgan Radford, author Malcolm Gladwell and Wall Street Journal columnist Peggy Noonan. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
And a good Sunday morning. Millions of Americans felt a combination of grief and relief experiencing both the trial and verdict of Derek Chauvin last week. But even as much of America exhales, it does help to remember this: the initial statement from the Minneapolis Police Department. Here’s how it read: "Officers were able to get the suspect, George Floyd, into handcuffs and noted he appeared to be suffering medical distress. Officers called for an ambulance. He was transported to Hennepin County Medical Center by ambulance where he died a short time later." He appeared to be suffering medical distress.That’s all that was said. Did Derek Chauvin's trial and conviction change anything? It's hard to know. Right now there are calls for video to be released in the fatal police shooting last week of Andrew Brown in North Carolina.But most cases of alleged police brutality against African Americans do not have video that puts the lie to statements like the one the Minneapolis police put out. Most cases aren't televised, gavel to gavel. Most cases don't have the whole world watching. Yes, there are some hopeful signs that Democrats and Republicans can work out a compromise on police reform. But until the country feels the criminal justice system is fair when there's no benefit of video and no spectacle, we won't really know whether things have changed or if justice was served only in this one particular case. In the past few days we’ve been asking a number of African Americans what the trial and verdict means to them.
GWEN CARR:
When the verdict actually came in, I sat there steadfast looking at the TV. Just so many things was running through my mind. Will we get justice this time, or won’t we? Because so many times we thought that we would get justice, and there was no justice. Just like my son’s case.
PROTESTER
I can’t breathe! I can’t breathe!
RODNEY FLOYD:
This right here is for everyone that’s been in this situation, everybody. Everybody.
ALICIA GARZA:
When the verdict was announced, I got quiet, because I just wanted to sit with this moment.
MICHAEL STEELE:
Someone just took 1000 pounds off my shoulder. And with each successive verdict, there was just a little bit more weight lifted.
REP. JIM CLYBURN:
This to me, was an effort on behalf of twelve men and women to repair a fault in our system
PROTESTERS:
No peace! No justice, no peace!
GWEN CARR:
I was happy that the nation could see that there may be a change coming about.
NNEKA OGWUMIKE:
I guess a way to describe it could be that of relief, maybe hope for the future. But in reality, not real joy.
DEMONSTRATOR:
I can't believe it. It feels -- there's poetry and the fact that he couldn't breathe and it feels like we just got a breath of fresh air
DR. WAYNE A.I FREDERICK:
George Floyd was dehumanized by Derek Chauvin. The courts are now holding Derek Chauvin responsible. But our society has been dehumanizing Black bodies. And so as a country we must hold ourselves accountable.
JURY MEMBER:
We the jury find George Zimmerman not guilty.
ALICIA GARZA:
Seven years ago I thought there's no possible way that this man could walk free for killing a child for no reason. And it wasn't just Trayvon.
DR. WAYNE A.I FREDERICK:
I am the son of a police officer who died a month shy of my third birthday, and I am the stepson of a prisons officer. I think the majority of police officers get into the system because they want to protect and serve. And so we have to give them the tools to protect and serve. Tools that don’t include just firearms and tasers and things that bring force, but tools that bring the community together.
NNEKA OGWUMIKE:
I think we saw in the trial that law enforcement can join this movement because we all want to be better.
REP. JIM CLYBURN:
We’ve got to get better recruiting. The training is good. You just got to have good people to be trained.
DR. WAYNE A.I FREDERICK:
For young black men to fulfill their potential and have their humanity amplified. I want my 16-year-old to live in a country where he can feel that.
MICHAEL STEELE:
And even with my grown son who's in his 30s, I still remind him, don't forget. Be mindful when you get pulled over. Turn the lights on. Put your hands on the steering wheel. Don't make any sudden moves, because I need you to come home and tell me what happened. I don't need to go to a morgue to find out what happened.
REP. JIM CLYBURN:
Somebody referred to it as a Selma moment. And it could very well be that. I certainly hope it is.
NNEKA OGWUMIKE:
Now is not the time to sit and watch. Now is not the time to keep quiet. Now is not the time to enable, and we're stepping into a point in history in which you want to look back and know that you did what you could.
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now to discuss the Chauvin verdict and its implications for policing are Democratic Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota. She's also, of course, the former Hennepin County attorney, and she's also author of a new book, Anti-Trust, about taking on monopoly power. We also have with us the Baltimore Police Commissioner Michael Harrison. And historian Keith Mayes. He's also the associate professor of African American and African Studies at the University of Minnesota. I want to bring up, Senator Klobuchar, what George Floyd's brother said right after the verdict. Here's what he said.
[TAPE BEGINS]
PHILONISE FLOYD:
The video. You don't need nothin' but the video. You couldn't stop the video. You couldn't fast forward the video. Somebody was tortured to death.
[TAPE ENDS]
CHUCK TODD:
Senator, without the video, where would we be today?
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
I don't know, Chuck, but what I do know is this: The -- Keith Ellison and his team did an incredible job. You had the witnesses, the people that -- just regular people walking by who didn't walk away, that testified. And what I came through that trial thinking is the guilt that they were shouldering when they could do nothing about it. The young teenager saying every night she’d lay awake, apologizing to George Floyd, thinking, “What could I have done?” Well, I think you’ve got to flip that. It's what can we do? And, to me, you cannot have true justice when chokeholds and knees on the neck are still being considered legitimate in some places. You cannot have true justice when a young kid can get stopped for an expired tag and then end up getting shot. And you can't have true justice, in the words of Daunte Wright's mom at the funeral that we just had here this week, she can't have her son home for dinner. So to me, yes, everything worked in this trial because of the tremendous effort, but that you cannot confuse accountability for true justice. And that's why we must pass the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act to change this going forward. And that's on us.
CHUCK TODD:
To Mr. Harrison, you'd said Wednesday that you watched the Chauvin verdict through multiple lenses: as a father, as a Black man and as a police officer. So explain how -- those range of emotions that you felt through all those lenses.
MICHAEL HARRISON:
First of all, thank you Chuck for having me on, and good morning senator. I had to watch this through multiple lenses. I am a police chief now of two major American cities. But before becoming a police chief or a police officer, you know, I'm an African American man who grew up in an urban city. I am the father of two African American children, my son and my daughter. And so, I had to look at this through multiple lenses. I agreed with the verdict. It was the right verdict on all three counts. And as a chief, I had to anticipate what would happen and prepare my department for what could happen if that verdict did not come that way. But not only was it the right verdict, I'm very pleased as a police chief to see that verdict and I'm very pleased as a African American citizen in this country to see those three verdicts.
CHUCK TODD:
Professor Mayes, you and I have talked about this before, but this is not an isolated incident in the state of Minnesota, in the county of Hennepin, in the city of Minneapolis. There are names that are, are -- that everybody just knows now, and Daunte Wright’s been added to it. What does this verdict mean to you, and what do you think the impact will be in your home state?
KEITH MAYES:
I think the verdict was just. I think it was correct. It was right. But here's the thing, Chuck. Six Black people lost their lives at the hands of police after the verdict. So, what does that suggest? We now hear that Merrick Garland and the DOJ will come in to do another investigation, but they did one, in 2015, in January, and then tragically we lost a young man named Jamar Clark. And then the DOJ came in and did another study about police accountability and police misconduct. And then we had the murder of George Floyd in 2020. Now, the DOJ is coming back again. And so, the beat goes on, Chuck. I think we can celebrate the verdict in the Chauvin trial, but the question must be asked: will police behavior really change? And since that verdict, which was rendered on Tuesday, all the evidence says that nothing has changed. And so, we definitely have to pass the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act to begin to deal with this issue on a systematic level.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, I want to talk about the systemic issue. Commissioner Harrison, here is what Trevor Noah said and he was -- it was a different play on the bad apple metaphor, take a listen.
[TAPE BEGINS]
TREVOR NOAH:
The system and policing is doing exactly what it's meant to do in America. I feel like you get to a place where you go, ‘Oh, we're not dealing with bad apples. We're dealing with a rotten tree. That happens to grow good apples.’”
[TAPE ENDS]
CHUCK TODD:
Commissioner Harrison, do you understand where Trevor Noah’s coming from?
MICHAEL HARRISON:
I didn't hear that, but hearing it now I do understand what that, what that means. And that's why Baltimore Police Department, like my former department in New Orleans, is under a federal consent decree, and we are essentially in a complete makeover of a department. And that's why I believe the Justice Department will, in its investigation, probably find patterns and practices of unconstitutional policing, and it's very likely Minneapolis will be in a consent decree, as well. Now, in our makeover, it is because the system was bad -- everything from recruitment to hiring to training to policies to practice and protocols, supervision technology, all of it. And here's what happens with good apples -- and I think Trevor was talking about where are the good apples -- we have to have peer interventions. We have a peer intervention program in Baltimore, as we did in New Orleans, where we teach officers how to step in front of their colleagues when a bad act is about to happen. And what we need is for more good officers to step up without being retaliated against and without having, without being punished for having stepped up to do the right thing to prevent those bad things from happening. And that's what we've been advocating for and that's what every department should be looking at. There is a wonderful program called Able Active Bystandership for Law Enforcement taught at Georgetown University where many, many departments are moving in that direction.
CHUCK TODD:
I guess the question, Senator Klobuchar, is going to be -- is can everybody get to yes on the George Floyd Police Reform Act? Here's Senator Tim Scott, offering a compromise on the issue of qualified immunity. I want to get your reaction to it on the other side.
[TAPE BEGINS]
SEN. TIM SCOTT:
There is a way to put more of the onus of the burden on the department or on the employer than on the employee. I think that is a logical step forward. It's something that the Democrats are quite receptive to.
[TAPE ENDS]
CHUCK TODD:
I'm curious. Answer the question actually, both in terms of, first of all, does that help compromise? But you are a former prosecutor, is that an effective change?
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
First off, we don't know what Senator Scott exactly is proposing. Those were just interviews, I want to see the language. Senator Booker is leading the negotiations on this bill. And I have so much faith in him to get to something meaningful. Every one of us on this panel, in our different ways, knows that we can't just say, "Oh, hey. Let's just have another study of this." We've had a lot of study of this. People are dying. What we need are changes. And that includes changes to standards and practices to look at reasonable and changing that standard to necessary force. That would make a huge difference. It is things like transparency. When you have good officers, but then you also have officers that have messed up a number of times and they're able to go to another department and you don't even know it. There should be data collected on that. You have to have more accountability. So, I'm not going to get ahead of the negotiations here, but the fact that we have senators on both sides that are seriously talking right now and moving forward on this is something we haven't seen forever. Because I don't want just one verdict, I want to see systemic change. What will be good for everyone, including the officers that testified against Chauvin, including the officers that protected us valiantly during the insurrection. We need to have a major change in policing in this country.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Keith Mayes, you heard Jim Clyburn say that maybe this will be a Selma moment. And in fact, folks have asked, “What would Selma have meant if it hadn't led to the passage of the Civil Rights Act?” Well, what happens if we don't act on police reform this year?
KEITH MAYES:
We'll be right back here again, Chuck. I don't think this is a Selma moment because I don't see lawmakers in Washington, D.C. really trying to move on this. The Democrats have put together a really comprehensive bill. You know, who can be against the removal and the elimination of chokeholds? Who could be against the limitation of qualified immunity? Who could be against reducing the criminal standard from intent to reckless? I mean, all these are great, great bills. And I think the Democrats need to push back on Tim Scott, to put this on police departments and say that we don't want individual police officers to be responsible. We want the money taken out of their pensions. Why overburden municipal budgets, who get a lot of their money from sales taxes? We have to pay this exorbitant amount of civil judgment from the taxpayers, from the people of the cities. And so, we don't want to shift the burden from individual officers to police departments, who we have to rely on the people to pay that out. So no, I disagree with Clyburn. This is not another Selma moment because we don't see a bipartisan effort in Congress to move this issue forward. The Democrats are holding this alone. And I think they really need to push back on Tim Scott's counterproposal.
CHUCK TODD:
The last question on policing I want to ask here is to you, Commissioner Harrison. The traffic stop seems to lead to a lot of problems. Is there --is it time to revisit the traffic stop?
MICHAEL HARRISON:
Absolutely. I think, you know, minor traffic violations and those small things officers observe, it's time to rethink that. You know, when we have information about violent crime or serious crimes that have taken place or information about the person driving the vehicle, whatever violation they may have committed, you know, those traffic stops -- we certainly want our officers focusing on the more important things, which are violent crimes. It's certainly time to revisit when and how we do those traffic stops.
CHUCK TODD:
Senator Klobuchar, we mentioned at the top that you have a new book out on anti-trust, it's called Anti-Trust. It's on monopoly power. And look, it’s about -- in many ways, it's sort of I think setting up what could be the breakup of big tech. There's going to be a big announcement by Facebook's oversight board having to do with the future of the former president, Donald Trump, and whether he can communicate on that platform. How much does that impact where you think Congress should go when it comes to dealing with big tech?
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
When you step back, you see that all this consolidation has been hurting us, hurting families, hurting workers. And yes, hurting our democracy, Chuck. And when you go back in time, and that's what I do with this book, I show the stories of people like Ida Tarbell, Ida Tarbell who took on Standard Oil. Or the woman that invented the monopoly board, who actually was against monopolies, to show that America has always stood up at some point. And right now with the tech companies, they are gatekeepers. They control so much information. It shouldn't be a surprise that we don't have an Instagram that developed bells and whistles that would've had more privacy rules or done something about misinformation, as you alluded to. Why? Because Facebook bought them out. Mark Zuckerberg, in an email that was now revealed, said, "Oh, they might be disruptive to us." Well, that's what tech is supposed to do. That's what competition's supposed to do, disrupt things. So, the book is really about the past and how we got to where we are today. It has over 100 cartoons. So it's fun to read. And then I have 25 solutions for the future.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, it is a well-researched book. You would think it's a tough subject. It's not. It's very readable. Thank you all for being on here, Commissioner Harrison, Professor Mayes. As always, sir, it's a pleasure to have your perspective on as well, and to you, Senator Klobuchar. When we come back, federal health officials end the pause on the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. But will the entire episode only add to growing vaccine hesitancy? The director of the NIH, Dr. Francis Collins joins me next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Federal health officials on Friday ended their pause on the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, while adding a warning label about a very rare but troubling blood-clotting disorder. While this is good news in the effort to vaccinate as many Americans as possible, there are still concerns that vaccine hesitancy could grow as a result of the J&J episode, creating another hurdle in our fight against the virus. So joining me now is the director of the National Institutes of Health. It's Dr. Francis Collins. Dr. Collins, welcome back to Meet the Press, sir.
DR. FRANCIS COLLINS:
Nice to be with you, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me start with the news about the J&J vaccine. You and I talked before this decision. It is out. The warning label seems to be more general than specific. And some doctors have wondered why it wasn't more specific. Here's Dr. Leana Wen in The Post. She says, "The default position should be against administering the Johnson & Johnson vaccine to women under 50.” Period. What do you say to her?
DR. FRANCIS COLLINS:
Well, I think she's in the minority compared to the decision that was put forward by the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices of CDC, which met for an entire day on Friday and went over all of the data, documenting a total of some 13 cases of this rare form of blood clotting out of some eight million doses of the J&J vaccine that had been administered. And the strong conclusion of that group was that the vaccine should go forward. It should be made available to everybody. But there should be a fact sheet that provides the information to everybody to understand what the nature is of this potential very rare side effect so that everyone is aware of the facts. And I think that was the right decision. I do think people will want to read the fact sheet. But when you consider the nature of this risk, this is truly a rare event. And when you measure that against the benefits of preventing somebody from dying of Covid, there's no comparison. We clearly have a situation where the benefits greatly outweigh the risks, even for younger women.
CHUCK TODD:
All these statistics I've read seems to reinforce that point you just said, about how rare it is for this to happen. Can you give us -- give viewers a layman's comparison here. What is a common drug that is out there that people take where it would be -- you would almost have -- be at higher risk of this than you would with this J&J vaccine?
DR. FRANCIS COLLINS:
Well, think about aspirin. All of us have been taking aspirin for headaches and muscle aches for the last many decades. The risk of aspirin inducing a significant intestinal bleed is much higher than what we're talking about here, something in the neighborhood of one in 500, one in 1,000 for people who regularly take aspirin. We're talking about something here that's about 1,000 times less likely to happen. But we Americans, we're not that good at this kind of risk calculation. Something sounds scary. Somebody has pointed out you are less likely as a woman taking J&J to have this blood-clotting problem than to get struck by lightning next year. So it's a really low risk. And we do figure out how to do that. We wear our seat belts, right? What are you doing there? You're trying to prevent a bad outcome if you're in a car crash. Back when seat belts were first being introduced, people were, like, "Well, you know, suppose my car goes into a lake and I can't get unbuckled quickly enough and I drown?" Well, okay, I guess that's in there, too. But balancing the benefits and the risks, which is what we're trying to do here, you come out pretty clearly on the side of roll up your sleeves.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, let's talk about the issue of vaccine hesitancy. You and I, again, were talking about this earlier. You've been doing your best to reach out to communities of faith in particular. But as you noted to me, and as our poll will show you, I'm going to put the numbers up here, we have a political divide. Among Democrats, 75 percent of all Democrats call themselves already vaccinated, and only 4 percent of Democrats say they will not get vaccinated. The numbers among Republicans: 40 percent are already vaccinated. One quarter of Republicans saying they will not get vaccinated. Look, this is not easy for a Democratic administration -- led administration, to try to convince these Republicans to do this. What are some of the efforts you guys are thinking about that might sort of depoliticize this?
DR. FRANCIS COLLINS:
Well, it is a really important issue because we're all in this together. And clearly, if we're going to be able to put Covid-19 behind us, we need to have all Americans take part in getting us to that point. I think maybe one of the things we can do is to change the conversation a little bit. I think maybe there's been too much finger wagging. I've done some of that. I'm going to try to stop and listen, in fact, to what people's specific questions are. And also, Chuck, try to emphasize the positives that people experience who go through vaccination, as I have and as my wife has.
We were able to invite another couple to come to our house for dinner and take off our masks because they were immunized as well. And have a normal conversation and hug each other at the end of the evening. That was so liberating. If you're not vaccinated, you're missing out on that chance to lift that sort of blanket of fear that's been there. Even if you don't think Covid-19 is that big a deal, tell me whether you haven't at some points worried about whether that's going to hit you and your family. This is the way to put that fear behind us and to get back to normal life. That's an incredible gift and you just have to unwrap that gift.
CHUCK TODD:
I know all of you public health officials are resisting all of our questions when we say, "What is -- when do we get to herd immunity," right? I understand it's a moving target. It's a bit subjective due to variants and things like this. But how risky -- how much risk do we have of not hitting herd immunity if we continue to have these vaccine hesitancy rates?
DR. FRANCIS COLLINS:
Well, we have a serious risk. And the reason nobody will give you an answer, Chuck, is because we don't really quite know with this particular virus, with the variants that are happening, exactly what that number is. But it's up there around 70, 85 percent. And we're not there yet. You can see some places in the country that are getting close to that with the combination of having had a lot of cases of Covid, which also provides you with some immunity, plus the vaccines. But there are other places that are way behind. And those are the places we all worry about as the next hotspot. You can see Michigan has gone through a terrible time in the last month. They are now getting past that, which is really encouraging. But what's the next one? You can look at the map and say, "Where are vaccines lagging?" Those are the places to worry about. And we could change that if we can really inspire everybody to get engaged. And we're doing everything we can to make it easy to get vaccinations. Ninety percent of the country now lives within five miles of a site where you can get a vaccination done. It's out there in the pharmacies, doctors are getting more engaged. It's not that difficult as it was at the beginning to get yourself an appointment and to get into this immunized group, which is where I think most people really want to be.
CHUCK TODD:
We saw some announcements this week of a couple of university systems that are going to mandate the vaccine in order to come on campus, in order to teach things like this. And we know that there are other entities that would like that vaccine mandate. But you can't have a mandate under emergency use authorization for these vaccines. What is the timetable, at least particularly with Moderna and Pfizer here, generally when we should expect this to go from emergency use to formal approval?
DR. FRANCIS COLLINS:
That is not a timetable that's been precisely defined just yet. Again, to get the permanent approval, you need a certain number of months of follow up to look at any possible late safety signals. There have not been any for Pfizer and Moderna. But FDA is not quite there yet. I think that's a question for FDA about when will they say this is enough. They need some other data also. It's kind of nitty-gritty technical stuff about manufacturing. That information has to be provided. But we're not there. We will get there in the next few months. Meantime, I think if private organizations decide they want to put forward a mandate, I'm not going to disagree with their approach. After all, vaccines are good for you. I'm certainly encouraging everybody who works for me at the National Institutes of Health to get vaccinated. But I'm not mandating it. Think about it though in the future though, particularly for people who are in health care, have interactions with vulnerable patients. We have been able to go in the direction of saying, "You should get your flu shot." I suspect the same will need to be the case for Covid once we're at the point where we no longer have this block about it being emergency use. So people who are involved in health care, I expect that's where we're going.
CHUCK TODD:
Dr. Francis Collins, always appreciate having you on and your expertise, the director of the NIH. And for those that are wondering, technically, Dr. Fauci's boss. Anyway, Dr. Collins, thanks for coming on and sharing your views with us.
DR. FRANCIS COLLINS:
Thanks, Chuck. It's always a pleasure.
CHUCK TODD:
You got it.
DR. FRANCIS COLLINS:
Good morning to everybody.
CHUCK TODD:
You've got it. Later in the broadcast, we have our new NBC News poll on President Biden's first 100 days in office. But up next, what the Derek Chauvin verdict means and doesn't mean. The future of policing, and then some. The panel is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. The panel is with us. Washington Post columnist Eugene Robinson, NBC News correspondent Morgan Radford, Wall Street Journal columnist Peggy Noonan and Malcolm Gladwell, author of a new book, The Bomber Mafia. It's the story behind the advent of U.S. precision bombing in World War II. Welcome to all of you. Eugene Robinson, you heard Jim Clyburn say this could be a Selma moment and Keith Mayes say very emphatically he doesn't see it. What say you?
EUGENE ROBINSON:
It's too soon to tell, too soon to tell. I mean, this is, and frankly, if this isn't a Selma moment, what's going to be one? You know, this is, this is a murder that was, that was videotaped for nine and a half excruciating, painful to watch moments. There was testimony, not only from experts, but from the police, from the chief of the -- of the department involved, the Minneapolis Police Chief, saying that what Derek Chauvin did was completely beyond the pale. You, you had everything, yet, you know, the, there was this enormous feeling, at least on my part, of, of relief. I could breathe when we finally got the verdict because so many of these verdicts have gone the other way. And so, we'll, we’ll see if we actually get some systemic change at this time. I think we've got a better shot than we've had in the past, but we'll see.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Morgan, it, it seems on one hand, you look at it and it seems obvious that some change is going to happen. Too much has happened. Too much is available for all of us to see. But you know what? We thought that about guns, too.
MORGAN RADFORD:
That's right. I mean, we've seen this, Chuck, time and time again. And I think, for a lot of voters we spoke to, this was sort of a full-circle moment, many hoping that this time is different, because you know, we heard a lot of the analysis this week describe joy, a relief, but it's also about something bigger, Chuck, and that's acknowledgment. Because the people we spoke to last summer after Floyd was killed, said they were protesting, for example, to defund the police, something they said that was not about abolishing police, but rather about making sure that safety was not segregated. They said, "We want police. We just want to make sure we have the same type of policing that is available in the suburbs." And so, then fast-forward to this spring, when you hear Governor Walz say, "This is sort of the very basic, minimum floor that we can expect of justice." You understand that a lot of those voters are saying they are expecting Democrats to turn this passion into policy.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Peggy, though, that's the thing here that I wonder about. I think Tim Scott, Karen Bass, and Cory Booker, I think they want to get to yes, but politics can get in the way. In the Wall Street Journal on Wednesday, Karl Rove wrote this: "A perception that's long haunted Democrats, that they're anti police and weak on law and order, hurt them in 2020 and is likely to inflict even more damage on their electoral prospects in 2022." And when I read this, the alarm bells went off in my head. Boy, you could see the political strategists could get in the way here and say, "Hey, we want the issue. We don't want a solution."
PEGGY NOONAN:
Yeah. He was looking at the whole problem, the policing problem, through a political lens. But I think that there has come to be a gelling of the idea that we have a societal problem going on here. We have a policing problem. And you think from there, A, the police are so important. They're crucial to domestic tranquility in the most stressed places in, in America, in the most -- communities where life is hardest. We say communities, we mean neighborhoods. Cops go there and they protect people, and they represent the law, which is an important thing and a certain amount of order. It seems to me the great possibility here is to acknowledge there's a problem with our policing, but not be punishing or punitive in that towards them, if you will, in general, but to say they need our help. They need, as Jim Clyburn said, "They need help in recruiting." They need help, in my view, in deepening and lengthening their training. They are important, and I don't think they need less, defunding or diverting of funds. They need more. And I feel like we could do it now. And I hope the political consultants don't get in the way and Tim Scott, Cory Booker and the others, can go forward.
CHUCK TODD:
Malcolm Gladwell, in many ways, you're our modern day Alexis de Tocqueville. You're not an American, yet you seem to see things sometimes clearer than most of us here. And as we've been debating the gun -- excuse me, the police issue and police reform and the use of force and why are guns drawn so quickly, the counterargument is, yeah in this country half of the country is armed, and you don't know who that is. How much more difficult is police reform because -- in this country, because of how prevalent guns are?
MALCOLM GLADWELL:
I mean, I think it's substantially more difficult. You know, this is -- there is no country in the world that has a problem with these kinds of acts and policing on the scale of the United States. We're a massive outlier, and we need to ask the question, why is the experience of Canada and Germany and Japan and all these other, excuse me, countries so different? And that, that means that we have to extend the conversation, as Peggy said, beyond the police, to all of us. You know, why, one of the -- I read a paper recently that looked at the levels of funding for different police departments around the United States. There are massive variations.There are places that are flush with cash and places where police officers are making as much as people who work at Walmart. That's nuts, right? And that's not a problem that the police want or asked for. That's a problem we presented to police departments. We have this crazy funding system. So I’d like, you know, I'd like those of us who want to reform the system to start the conversation with what those of us outside the police community can do.
CHUCK TODD:
Eugene Robinson?
EUGENE ROBINSON:
Yeah, you know, Malcolm makes great points about, about the funding, but what also matters is what, what are those funds being spent on? If they're being spent on, you know, on surplus military equipment, for example, to turn, you know, ordinary squad cars into SWAT vehicles, I think that's not the best use of that money. And the whole, you know, “defund” was never, was never a good word for what maybe needs to happen, but should police officers, fully armed, you know, with revolvers and tasers and everything else, be the ones to respond to a lot of kinds of ordinary situations like a routine traffic stop, like other situations that you might encounter? Or should there be other kinds of first-responders?
CHUCK TODD:
Morgan?
MORGAN RADFORD:
Yes, I mean, that's exactly what a lot of the voters we've spoken to have said, that, that defunding was really muddled messaging, right? This is really about reimagination and reinvestment. And a lot of those voters looked, for example, to Camden, New Jersey, right. This is a police force that was overhauled in 2013 and then saw their violent crimes drop by 40%. So, you know, to Peggy's point, when they're saying police need more, a lot of the voters are saying, "Yeah, but what are you going to do once we give you more?" So, instead of calling 911 and just having an officer, they're saying, let's actually have a more comprehensive system that involves a mental health care worker, a social worker, someone who is able to deescalate those situations in those very communities where people need it most, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Malcolm, quickly, before I go to break.
MALCOLM GLADWELL:
Yeah, I just wanted to follow up. I totally agree with what the last two speakers have said, and that is that, you know, we have systematically underfunded mental health services in this country. We have systematically ignored the homelessness problem. And we have let the police, we have forced the police to be the last line of, kind of social support for those troubled populations. And that is nuts. Like, you know, you can't do that and expect to have an optimal law enforcement outcome.
CHUCK TODD:
Excellent conversation. Obviously, I'd love to keep more of it going, but I want to move here a little bit. Got to get in another break. When we come back, as part of our climate challenge week here at NBC News, we're going to look at how Americans' attitudes towards global warming have changed. And as we go to break, we also want to remember Walter Mondale, a senator, a vice president, a Democratic presidential nominee, and also a powerful civil rights advocate, who died last week. Mondale may be best remembered for how he transformed the vice presidency from a job that was a political backwater to one that became of real significance. And it started under President Jimmy Carter. Here is Walter Mondale talking about that on Meet The Press in 1977.
(BEGIN TAPE)
WALTER MONDALE:
I think the role that the President has permitted me to play is unprecedented in American history. I am privy to all of the classified and secret information. I serve on the National Security Council and all of its subcommittees. I serve on all the crucial policy committees. And I have virtually unlimited access to the president.
(END TAPE)
CHUCK TODD:
Walter Mondale was 93.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Data Download time. It's been more than 50 years since the words Earth Day entered our environmental lexicon and we now have polling data that shows that, over just the last few years, there's been an increasing understanding that it is humans, us, that do in fact play a large role in Earth's changing environment. But this answer still depends on where you live. Check this out. Survey data from the Yale program on climate communication shows that, in 2014, nationally, just under half of adults, 48%, felt that global warming was mostly caused by human activity. And in fact, it was only over a majority in just 17 states who thought that way. Last year though, the numbers have gone up, it's now 57% nationally who feel that way and there's now majorities in almost all of the states, except four. And you may be surprised to learn we're over 50% regardless of one's politics. This is not one of those polarizing issues here.
Now, on average, in states President Biden won, 59% of people believe humans cause global warming. The number's not that much lower in states that former president Trump won. So, as you can see, not as polarizing. However, even if a majority of Americans are now in agreement about the cause, they're very much not in agreement about how it impacts them personally.
There are only two states, California and Hawaii, where a majority of residents feel that they are going to be personally impacted by global warming. In most of the other 48 states, people are concerned about the issue, but they have yet to see it as something that's going to personally impact them. It's worth noting because we all know about our own backyard politics. Well, the climate change debate is shifting to what's to be done. And the answer will require billions of dollars in federal, state, and local funds. It may be tough to get people to spend money like that if they don't think this problem impacts them personally. And by the way, speaking of climate change, right now on our streaming show, Meet The Press Reports, we look at how climate change, from droughts to deep freezes, has endangered our water supply and, yes, our water security. Among my guests, Erin Brockovich. You can find Meet The Press Reports Thursdays on NBC News Now and any time you want on Peacock, so binge away. When we come back, our brand new NBC News poll on what Americans think of President Biden as he approaches his 100th day in office.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. I'm going to start things off with our new NBC News poll that we're debuting this morning as we approach President Biden's 100th day in office. The president's approval rating among everyone is -- sits at 53 percent, against 39 percent who disapprove. When you narrow it down to just those who are registered voters, it narrows slightly. 51 percent approve of his job; 43 percent disapprove; six point net difference. That 43 percent looks familiar, though, if you’ve followed the polls last year. Still, either approval rating, by the way, is higher than Donald Trump had at any time during his presidency. He never touched 51s. President Biden gets high marks for handling of the coronavirus, the economy and uniting the country, but there are warning signs here on guns and immigration in particular. So let's bring back the panel. Peggy Noonan, you know, it's interesting -- I hope you saw our word clouds. We asked people, sort of, why do they approve or why do they disapprove. And you sort of saw it in stark differences, right? It was, "Not Trump," jumps out among the approvers. And it's a little less obvious on the other side. Cognitive issues and border jump out, and that sort of screams prime time cable on the right. Your take on 100 days?
PEGGY NOONAN:
You know, I think there's a lot of cautious optimism out there. I think the poll looked to me like a cautious optimism poll. I think it has to do, first of all, with a general return to normalcy. Washington isn't on fire every day. Crazy dramas aren't happening. Vaccines are online and everybody's getting vaccines. America's opening up. So, there's a certain optimism. I would say cautions for President Biden and his administration include what you say, guns and immigration. But watch this sense of high taxes, taxes, taxes, high spending, spending. In places like the suburbs that have been going Democratic, I don't think they're going to love a sense of fiscal --
CHUCK TODD:
Exuberance?
PEGGY NOONAN:
-- Too much going on. So, exuberance is one word. Overdoing it is another. So, so, I think that might be a concern there, so I'd throw that one in.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, actually, we did taxes. He's just barely underwater on taxes, not as much as we saw on immigration, but it is, I'd say, a yellow flag there.
PEGGY NOONAN:
Yes.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Malcolm Gladwell, the one thing --
PEGGY NOONAN:
Yes, but the taxes haven't started yet. Sorry.
CHUCK TODD:
Malcolm Gladwell, the one thing Americans do agree on, no matter whether they're Republican, a Democrat, or an independent in our poll: that we're divided. 82 percent. So I guess the good news is, we're self-aware in that we all agree we're divided. Other than that, we don't agree on much else.
MALCOLM GLADWELL:
Well, I suspect that that's probably been true, with the exception of a little period in the middle of the 20th century, I suspect that you could have made that same observation through large swashes of the 19th century and even back in the 18th century. So, I mean, at a certain point we, we muddle along. We do okay.
CHUCK TODD:
When is it debilitating though? When is it debilitating, our polarization?
MALCOLM GLADWELL:
I don’t, you know -- I'm also a little bit of a skeptic that the observation in the poll that people will say we're divided actually means we're divided. Are there -- it struck me in our response to coronavirus, we, we were pretty united. Like, we managed to do a pretty good job of dealing with this pandemic, better than a lot of other countries in some respects, certainly in our, in our vaccine response. So I don't know. I think we sometimes get carried away with these, these kind of anecdotal observations about how we are as a people.
CHUCK TODD:
Morgan, you're on the ground all the time. Is Malcolm right?
MORGAN RADFORD:
Malcolm is right. I think you will see division, you know, if you look at it historically, but I think what's new now is what people are divided on. If you look, for example, at the Reuters poll that came out just earlier this month, it also showed that six out of ten Republicans still believe the false claim that the election was stolen. And so, if you believe that or if you, for example, are a QAnon believer and believe that there's a cabal of people harming children running our government, it's really hard, right, to find somewhere in the middle. And so, I think the question is now: what are the systems in place that are allowing these extreme kind of views to control the levers of power?
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Gene, President Biden's got his big speech this week. I think he's focused on the big issues early, which has gotten him this approval rating. How does he need to go about the next hundred days?
EUGENE ROBINSON:
Well, you saw the biggest thing in his positive word cloud was, "Not Trump." So, he will continue to be not Trump. He will continue to be normal, empathetic Joe Biden laying out his agenda and, and coming across as honest and leveling with the American people and leveling with Congress. He's having more success with the American people than he is with Republicans in Congress right now.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, that is an understatement, for sure. That's all we have for today. Really appreciate you all watching this week. Thank you for being here. We'll be back next week because, if it's Sunday, it's Meet The Press.