CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday: Risky Business.
GOV. BILL LEE:
Social distancing must continue, our economic shutdown cannot.
CHUCK TODD:
Some states reopening their economies.
GOV BRIAN KEMP:
We're probably going to continue to see our cases go up, but we're a lot better prepared for that now than we were a month ago.
CHUCK TODD:
This as millions more file for unemployment --
BUDDIE BLACKWELL:
We can't hide in fear the rest of our life.
CHUCK TODD:
-- and as the U-S death toll passes 50-thousand.
NURSE:
If you want to live you stay home. My god, don't open up this country.
CHUCK TODD:
Plus, the president versus the scientists. On a coronavirus surge in the fall --
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
It's also possible it doesn't come back at all.
ROBERT REDFIELD:
Next fall and winter, we're going to have two viruses circulating.
CHUCK TODD:
-- on testing --
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
We are not in a situation where we say we're exactly where we want to be with regard to testing.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
If he said that I don't agree with that.
CHUCK TODD:
-- and on injecting disinfectants --
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?
CHUCK TODD:
-- or using UV rays inside the body.
DR. DEBORAH BIRX:
Not as a treatment.
CHUCK TODD:
My guests this morning: Dr. Deborah Birx, head of the coronavirus task force, Governor Phil Murphy of New Jersey, infectious disease specialist Michael Osterholm, and former Georgia gubernatorial candidate Stacey Abrams. Also, the pandemic and the election. How the coronavirus will be a huge factor come November. Joining me for insight and analysis are: NBC News Chief Foreign Affairs Correspondent Andrea Mitchell, pulmonologist Dr. Vin Gupta of the University of Washington, and NBC News Senior Business Correspondent Stephanie Ruhle. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press and our continuing coverage of the coronavirus pandemic.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning. To give you some perspective on how devastating the coronavirus has been, consider this. There have now been 900,000 confirmed cases of COVID-19 in the U-S with 53,000 deaths. Look at that number of deaths for a moment. Sometime this week. we're likely to pass the 58,000 lives we lost in Vietnam. That death tolls took us more than a decade, this has taken us about 12 weeks. In the past seven days, at least 17 states and Washington D.C. have registered their highest-ever one-day total of coronavirus cases. The national curve may be flattening, but it's flattening at a very high level. What's now clear is that we as a country particularly at the government level have failed to meet the moment. There's not enough testing to understand the challenge we're confronting. 26 million people so far have filed for unemployment, wiping out the gains made since the 2008 financial crisis. Money is not getting to the small businesses that need it to survive. And the President of the United States is floating ideas like injecting disinfectants into sick patients. It's against this backdrop that some of the nation's governors are taking the risky step of opening their states for business. Behind that decision is a brutal calculation, that the unemployment, the hunger, the depression and the social dislocations of a stalled economy are worse than the certainty of an even more -- larger death toll from COVID-19 as businesses reopen. Health care experts acknowledge the necessity of getting people back to work, but warn that moving too early could invite a second wave, with disastrous consequences. Meanwhile, President Trump, eyeing the election in November, is grasping at any idea to stop the virus and get the economy back on track quickly.
REPORTER:
Do you take any responsibility for these 50,000 deaths that have happened in this country?
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
No. I think we’ve done a great job.
CHUCK TODD:
As the U.S. death toll continues to climb, on Friday the administration scrambled to contain the fallout from the president's suggestion that injecting household disinfectants might cure the coronavirus.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning. Top administration officials tell NBC News that members of the coronavirus task force were shocked by those comments.
STEPHEN HAHN:
No, I certainly wouldn't recommend the internal injection of a disinfectant.
CHUCK TODD:
Surgeon General Jerome Adams warned: Please always talk to your health provider first before administering any treatment, medication to yourself or a loved one. The EPA implored: Never apply the product to yourself or others. The CDC tweeted: Household cleaners and disinfectants can cause health problems when not used properly. And Mr. Trump's former FDA commissioner, who advises the task force:
SCOTT GOTTLIEB:
There's no circumstance under which you should take a disinfectant or inject a disinfectant for the treatment of anything.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I was asking a sarcastic, a very sarcastic question to the reporters in the room about disinfectant on the inside. But it does kill it, and it would kill it on the hands, and that would make things much better.
CHUCK TODD:
It's just the latest example of the president's desperate attempts to peddle treatments for a pandemic that is killing thousands each day. For weeks, the president touted the use of a malaria drug to treat the virus.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Hydroxychloroquine. Hydroxychloroquine. Hydroxychloroquine. It's worked unbelievably.
CHUCK TODD:
On Friday, the FDA issued a formal warning against use of the drug, citing "heart rhythm problems." And the president has broken with the scientists who advise him on the most fundamental questions of the federal response. On testing.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
We absolutely need to significantly ramp up not only the number of tests, but the capacity to actually perform them
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
No, I don't agree with him on that. No, I think we're doing a great job on testing.
CHUCK TODD:
And on the virus's timeline.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
It may not come back at all.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
We will have coronavirus in the fall.
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is the response coordinator for the White House Coronavirus Task Force, Dr. Deborah Birx. Dr. Birx, welcome back to Meet the Press. And let me start with the --
DR. DEBORAH BIRX:
Good morning.
CHUCK TODD:
-- issue of reopening. And that is the four states right now that are doing some phase of it, none of these four states are meeting the guidelines that you laid out about ten days ago of what these phased reopenings would look like, what metrics each state should be looking for before they begin this. This wasn't a mandate. They were guidelines, I grant you that. How concerned are you that we are up to four states not following these federal guidelines?
DR. DEBORAH BIRX:
We put out the gating criteria to be very clear about what epidemiologic pieces we thought were critical, what health care delivery pieces we thought were critical, and what surveillance and monitoring pieces were critical. And we still believe strongly that those are the best public health recommendations to every state and every governor to follow.
CHUCK TODD:
Would you advise any one of these states that have reopened right now, Georgia, South Carolina, Alaska, Oklahoma to be reopening right now?
DR. DEBORAH BIRX:
Well, each state is different. And the reason we made the guidelines and gating criteria very specific was also -- and I'm sure a lot of people have missed the asterisk that said to look not only statewide, but also county by county. And I have been very struck by how different the outbreaks are from the metro regions, to the rural regions, to the county regions. And that's why we look at things in a very granular way and governors should be doing the same because there are areas of every state that are much more stable and much more spared this epidemic than other areas of states.
CHUCK TODD:
Are you concerned though that if you have already four states not following the guidelines that you laid out, more states appear to be ready to possibly do that as well, that we end up losing all the ground that we’ve gained over the last six weeks?
DR. DEBORAH BIRX:
I've had really very good conversations with a series of governors. And they have really been very insightful of how they are looking at this. They understand the risk. And they talk about this not as turning on a light switch, but slowly turning up the dimmer. Very slowly. And each, each -- that is why these are in phases. And each phase carries a very specific piece. And to all the American people, please read those phases because it was very clear that if you have preexisting conditions or you're the elderly with preexisting conditions and have risk factors, we strongly recommended that you continue to shelter in place and continue to be protected and continue to follow all the guidelines. And anybody that you interact with, ensure that they're also following the guidelines very carefully.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, now that actually gets me to my next topic with you, and that is the issue of testing. I’d actually, instead of me liking the question, I would like to get you to respond to Bill Gates. Here is what he said to a colleague of mine yesterday on the testing issue.
(START TAPE)
BILL GATES:
Of all the things I am most surprised about the federal government response, the unwillingness to get involved in test prioritization is the most amazing. We have 330 million people and our testing capacity is under 200,000 a day.
(END TAPE)
CHUCK TODD:
Dr. Birx, I know you have had your own -- you’ve worked with the Gates Foundation in the past, so I should set that aside there a second. How would you respond to him?
DR. DEBORAH BIRX:
I think he is very clearly -- there is a piece of us that have worked together to do two things. And I think what is really important is for the American public to understand how we are doing these tests right now. Uniquely, we are using nucleic acid testing. What does that mean? You are actually sampling for the live virus in people's noses or in people's throats. And then you have to expand that doing what we call nucleic acid testing. So this is not like a flu test or a strep test. So when we talked to the commercial companies almost seven weeks ago, eight weeks ago, we asked every single corporation and every single diagnostic company that had nucleic acid testing capacity on their platforms, which is primarily HIV and HPV, and make tests for those platforms. And in less than two to three weeks, every single one of these platforms are up and running. Now, what we did with the states, and I think what Mr. Gates points out very clearly, is what did we do with the states to ensure that we have identified all those platforms? And, you know, over a week ago, we sent out to states every single platform where it was located, over 5,000 platforms across the state. And showing geographically and by zip code where they're located. That is allowing us to work closely with the states to unlock that full potential. And to prioritize first states that have had outbreaks, but also states that need to do active surveillance. What we talked about asymptomatic surveillance, to really find cases before people have symptoms. And that is what we are doing right now with every single state.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, the debate about testing, and I know the president gets defensive and claims that testing has been a success story. It does feel as if there is a hesitance to use the Defense Production Act in order, whether it is swabs, whether it is getting these reagents, whether it is forcing these labs to process things faster, guaranteeing some funding for it. Why the hesitance inside that task force?
DR. DEBORAH BIRX:
I think all of those pieces are discussed with -- inside the task force. From generation of swabs, to generation of tubes and the media. I think what people do not see behind the scenes is how FDA have worked with corporations to really change the number of swabs that can be utilized. If you remember, we-- just four weeks ago, we were recommending these nasopharyngeal swabs and we have moved to multiple different swabs, multiple different extraction media. The intent is to continue to scale, with the support of states and working with states, to continue to scale testing. But at the same time, we have to realize that we have to have a breakthrough innovation in testing. We have to be able to detect antigens, rather than constantly trying to detect the actual live virus or the viral particles itself. And to really move into antigen testing. And I know corporations and diagnostics are working on that now. We have to have a breakthrough. This RNA testing will carry us certainly through the spring and summer. But we need to have a huge technology breakthrough. And we are working on that at the same time.
CHUCK TODD:
So essentially what you’re saying is we don’t have -- you don’t think we have the capacity to ramp up the testing you would like because we need this -- we basically need a breakthrough for easier testing?
DR. DEBORAH BIRX:
No, I think we have other technology that we think can come online within the next two to three weeks. That will be a breakthrough in the RNA type testing. But I think also just for ease of use, finding out how we can do antigen type testing like they do with flu. It can be used as a screening test. And then you could do the actual RNA testing for a confirmatory test. Just allows you to screen large numbers of individuals quickly.
CHUCK TODD:
The vice president on Friday said that by Memorial Day, in fact, I want to read the quote exactly here, that, by Memorial Day the epidemic, “I think honestly, if you look at the trends today, that I think by Memorial Day Weekend will largely have this coronavirus epidemic behind us." This Memorial Day, 2020? Is that realistic that it is behind us? Can you explain what he means by that?
DR. DEBORAH BIRX:
I think he means that in the models and in tracking our actual data because previously, we were using models based on data from around the world. And now, we are very much tracking every single outbreak in the United States separately. And if you look at those outbreaks over time and you look at places like Louisiana, if you look at Houston, if you look at Detroit, and you look at how they have reached their peak and come down. And what those cases look like as they come down, it gives us great hope when you project out Boston and Chicago and certainly, the New York Metro which we are all very still focused on. I mean, they still have 45% or so of the entire cases in the United States. And the majority, about 40 to 50% of the mortalities. So we continue to watch this very closely. But that is where the projections take us. And it is very much based on Detroit, Louisiana and other groups. And then looking at Seattle, that never really reached a peak and has never really had a large outbreak. And trying to understand what we can do as a people to ensure -- social distancing will be with us through the summer to really ensure that we protect one another as we move through these phases.
CHUCK TODD:
Dr. Birx, help me understand what happened with the suggestion that the president made that the task force study disinfectant injections. You said he was digesting information at the time when that came out of his mouth. Do you have any more information and are you concerned that people might take bleach because of what the president said?
DR. DEBORAH BIRX:
I think I made it very clear in how I interpreted that. I also made it very clear, and so has Dr. Fauci and everyone associated with the task force, in their clarity around this is not a treatment. What was missed, and really I am hoping the American people understand, the reason why that study was important that Department of Homeland Security did, was when we came and saw what MIT talk about as viral particles moving through the air, was really important to figure out in the outside conditions is there anything that decreases the half-life of that virus. And I think I was reassured personally to see what impact sunlight has on the virus and the viral half-life. That should be encouraging to all of us. We should still social distance. We should still wear those masks to protect others as we work through this epidemic. But I think it is really important to see that sunlight, direct sunlight, may actually be able to kill the virus.
CHUCK TODD:
Are you concerned the credibility of the scientists on the task force get undermined when the president, now with bleach? Obviously, you can’t do that. And hydroxychloroquine, where the FDA had to put out a statement? I mean, is this undermining the credibility of you and Dr. Fauci and other scientists?
DR. DEBORAH BIRX:
I think all of us are very clear and very clear in our discussions with the American people how we are looking and utilizing data to drive decision making within the task force. Everyday, about 2:30 in the morning, I get every single piece of data coming in from every county, where we triangulate where is the virus moving, how are people responding to the virus, are we considering absolutely everything to protect American people? And triangulating that data to come up with that day's work. Where should PPE go? Where should we be really talking with governors about a recent outbreak? How do we protect individuals that are in essential services? This is the discussion of the task force. And the physicians and the individuals involved in the task force are every day focused on what’s the most recent scientific evidence. And I think what really the American people should understand is in the guidelines that NIH originally published, really helpful, were put up this week to really talk about how to clinically approach this. But we have really critical data that has come to the forefront over the last few days about how this virus is interacting with people in the United States. And I think that's really critical. We need to constantly be focusing on what we are learning to save more lives and to make our treatment more effective.
CHUCK TODD:
Dr. Birx, I have to leave it there. I appreciate you coming on and sharing the administration's view. Stay safe and healthy yourself.
DR. DEBORAH BIRX:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, I'll talk to the governor of the second hardest hit state in the country as well as to an infectious disease expert who says we haven't fully grasped how profound a crisis we're facing. And as I go to break this Sunday morning, images of a pandemic, beginning with the new look for members of the House of Representatives.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back, next to New York the hardest hit state in the country has been New Jersey. There have been over 105,000 cases in New Jersey, a stay at home order has been in effect since March 21st and Governor Phil Murphy says the state is probably weeks away from jump-starting its economy. And Governor Murphy joins me now. And Governor, you've made note of these at your briefings, sadly we just did the math and I believe your death toll now surpass, surpasses the combined death toll of New Jersians who died fighting in Vietnam, Korea and World War I. So I do think the scope of this continues to set in. But let me start with where you believe the state of New Jersey is right now and how far away you think you are from phase one, incremental reopening of the economy.
GOV. PHIL MURPHY:
Chuck, good to be with you. You're absolutely right. And we have suffered an extraordinary toll of loss of life. I think best -- best understanding of the data right now is that we are still a number of weeks away. The fatalities continue to be significant each and every day. Our positive test curve has flattened and that's a good thing. More importantly, hospitalizations have started to come down. ICU and ventilator use down a little bit. Those are good signs. But we're not out of the woods yet. I think we're several weeks away. And the big mantra, and our state's done a really good job of this, I have to say, I give a shout-out to our residents, the mandate to stay at home and stay away from each other is still very much in effect until we can break the back of this curve.
CHUCK TODD:
Have you decided if you're going to have a one -- have a statewide order that will essentially govern everybody the same? Or do you think you're going to cordon off, you've got South Jersey, you're going to have the Jersey Shore may have one set of, of timelines and reopening and, of course, Northern New Jersey with another? What, what path do you imagine taking on, on a reopening?
GOV. PHIL MURPHY:
Yeah, you're absolutely right. The Metro New York counties up in our northeast part of the state have been crushed. But it's important to note that we've got positive test results in each of our 21 counties. And sadly, we have fatalities in each of our 21 counties. So while we haven't made that decision, we have as a health care matter, this is a month or six weeks ago, separated the state into regions. North, central and south. That has proven to be effective. We just opened up, with the Army Corps, a field medical station in Atlantic City in the south last week. So I suspect, Chuck, while we haven't made a decision on that, we're going to move as one state, recognizing you've got density issues in the north that you just don't have in the south.
CHUCK TODD:
You're going to be needing some money from the federal government. You know -- it looks like it's going to be probably a little bit of a back and forth inside of Congress. If you don't get a federal bailout or federal reimbursement money, what are the first services do you think you'd have to start cutting back on if the federal government either limited or didn't give you some money to deal with this pandemic?
GOV. PHIL MURPHY:
Let me say with this, we've had constructive conversations and exchanges. And we're on with the White House morning, noon and night on health care, on testing, on financial matters. I have to reiterate what Senator McConnell said about letting states go bankrupt was both irresponsible and not factual. And to your question, we won't go bankrupt but we'll gut the living daylights out of things like educators, first responders, the very folks we desperately need. This is the health care crisis of all time in our country's history. We need states to be fully funded at the point of attack, being there for our residents. And so we need a big slug. Not just New Jersey. There's a bill Senator Menendez and Senator Cassidy, I might add bipartisan, have sponsored for $500 billion. That's exactly what the doctor ordered.
CHUCK TODD:
Governor, one of the challenges that I feel like is going to be unique to both you and Governor Cuomo is this issue of when Manhattan can open up. And when -- as somebody pointed out to me, you might be able to create office space that is socially distanced. You can phase people in. But how do you get on the New Jersey trains with social distancing and run enough trains to make it work? How do you get on the subway and still have social distancing? This mass transportation issue in the age of social distancing, do you have a, do you have an idea yet of how you're going to tackle this?
GOV. PHIL MURPHY:
I don't have a crisp one-word answer. But the new -- the next normal is going to be a new normal and a different normal than we have had in the past without question. And Chuck, it is part of the reason why we have formed a regional council with six other states. And most importantly our neighbors in particular New York, in this case. We have got to figure this stuff out together. Governor Cuomo and I and others of our neighbors worked very closely together as we shut things down. We have got to do the exact same thing as we reopen. And mass transit, commuting generally, what does a workplace look like? What are the new norms going to be? Clearly testing, as you discussed, with Dr. Birx. These are all elements that we need to deal with, not just within our state. But we have to deal with our regional partners. And none more important for us than New York City and New York State.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, look, that's just one of many things that are going to be a challenge I think in the next months and perhaps years. Governor Murphy, thanks for spending a few minutes with us, Democratic governor from New Jersey, and sharing your views, I appreciate it.
GOV. PHIL MURPHY:
Thanks for having me, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is Dr. Michael Osterholm. He is the director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota. And I want to begin, Dr. Osterholm, with you to respond to something Dr. Birx said earlier on the show. She essentially seemed to imply that we can’t ramp up testing as we know it. And that the only way we are going to solve our testing problem is with, essentially, a breakthrough. Is she right? Is that throwing in the towel on testing too early?
DR. MICHAEL OSTERHOLM:
Well, she is partially right. But let’s just be really clear. There are three major problems with testing right now. One, we do not have the reagents. Our government is not working with private sector companies, as all the other governments of the world are now seeking testing to understand how to best ramp up these reagents that we do need. Number two is we have the wild, wild west for testing right now. The FDA has all but given up its oversight responsibility for the tests we have on the market. Many of them are nothing short of a disaster. And we got into that place because of the fact -- once CDC had a problem, the FDA just opened the gate. And we have a lot of bad tests on the market right now. The third thing is these tests just do not perform well in low prevalent populations. Meaning that right now, if you were to test for antibody in most places in the United States, over half of the tests would be false positives. So what we need is a major, new initiative on testing that gets away from every day just saying how many people got tested. We're missing the mark in a big way right now.
CHUCK TODD:
Is this -- given what we have now, I mean, it sounds like -- does the federal government, does the president need to use this Defense Production Act in order to force these private companies to make these reagents?
DR. MICHAEL OSTERHOLM:
Well, that’s part of the answer. But remember, the whole world wants these reagents right now, it is just not the United States. And so we are competing against the world. What we have not done is really have just been clear with the public or with, in many cases, the people who are making these tests, what we want. You know, there is just far too much happy talk. There is not enough what do we need, what is it going to take to get us there, and how are we going to do it. And so even today, it is all about excuses, about what we are doing for testing or not. Where is our strategic plan that lays out why we are going to use the test, how we are going to use the test, when will it be available? And we do not have that.
CHUCK TODD:
Lay out the next 12 months. You have been basically a reality check for a lot of us over the last couple of weeks on, as you just called it, happy talk. So Vice President Pence said, "This is going to be behind us largely by Memorial Day." My initial instinct was, "Memorial Day 2021 or 2020?" What is your instinct?
DR. MICHAEL OSTERHOLM:
Well, first of all, let's just take the numbers. At most, 5-15% of the United States has been infected to date. With all the experience we have had so far, this virus is going to keep transmitting. It's going to keep trying to find humans to do what it does until we get at least 60% or 70% of the people infected. That is what it will take to get herd immunity. You know, Chuck, we are in the very earliest days of this situation right now. You know, if I could just briefly say one story here. Right after 9/11, I spent a number of days up at your studios doing filing around the issue of what was happening. The predecessor here, the late Tim Russert, used to say to me all the time, "Hi, Doc. How're you doing? Is the big one here yet?" And I would always say, "No, Tim, it is not." If he asked me today, "Is the big one here? Is it coming?" I would say, "Tim, this is the big one." And it is going to be here for the next 16 to 18 months. And people do not get that yet. We are just on the very first stages. When I hear New York talking about the fact they are down the backside of the mountain, I know they have been through hell. And that is an important statement. But they have to understand that’s not the mountain. That is the foothills. They have mountains to go yet. We have a lot of people to get infected before this is over.
CHUCK TODD:
Vaccine or herd immunity, what's more likely?
DR. MICHAEL OSTERHOLM:
Well, herd immunity is clearly going to happen if we do not have a vaccine. I do think that we have a better chance of a vaccine than some. The statement that came out yesterday from the World Health Organization suggesting there may not be immunity was misinterpreted to mean that we do not have evidence today that you are protected from humans. But we have actually animal model data, monkeys that have been infected intentionally and then rechallenged, that were protected. We have a new study on Friday that said vaccine protected them. So I think we are going to have it. I just do not think it is going to be soon. And we are on virus time right now, not human time. And so what we can get done in the next 16 to 18 months, that is great. But if we do not, we will not have a vaccine in time to protect most of the people in the world.
CHUCK TODD:
Dr. Osterholm, thank you for coming on and giving us your expertise and frankly, a bit of a timeline --
DR. MICHAEL OSTERHOLM:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
-- reality check. When we come back, President Trump says the U.S. response to the coronavirus pandemic is the envy of the world. Is it? Panel is next. And as we go to break, if there is a good thing about this economic crisis, it is in the clean air and views we have not seen for a long time. Take a look.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. The panel is with us from their remote locations: NBC News chief foreign affairs correspondent Andrea Mitchell, pulmonologist Dr. Vin Gupta of the University of Washington, and NBC News senior business correspondent Stephanie Ruhle. And as you can see here, guys, I want to just basically hit three big things here on the government's response on the economics, on health, and on politics. As of this morning, more than 53,000 Americans have died, less than 2% of the population has been tested, and even the trillions Congress has approved isn't nearly enough and often isn't getting to the people who need it. Andrea Mitchell, I want to start with the political response collectively. There's the president, and then there's everyone else. And I don't know how much of it you believe -- the president is sort of coloring the atmosphere which is why it looks like Congress is slow off the mark here, or we've just got to be prepared for a polarized Congress going forward?
ANDREA MITCHELL:
I think the president is going his own way with misinformation with those daily briefings, which we now are told he is suspending. He's finally backing off. I'll believe it when I see it after this weekend as to whether he resumes. Because he so needs to fill his own demand, his need for self-congratulation really and for -- to show what he believes is leadership. That we've seen dangerous, toxic advice coming from the White House. And unfortunately, I think that the credibility of the scientists really now is on the line, that they have to decide whether to stay inside and be valuable or whether or not they have to see another alternative, like Jim Mattis, and quit. Because when Dr. Birx said to you today that sunlight does kill the virus, she is perpetuating an unscientific, untested single study presented by a non-scientist from the Department of Homeland Security which led to the president, as she put it, not fully digesting the data. She needed to be very clear on disavowing it. And to this point, she still has not been even this morning.
CHUCK TODD:
Dr. Gupta, are you worried that Dr. Birx is letting her credibility get sort of sucked into the Trump vortex?
DR. VIN GUPTA:
I really admire Dr. Birx. And, yeah, I have to say that whether it was not pushing back strongly enough on Georgia's willingness to liberalize social distancing. And especially when it came to tattoo parlors, I can understand if we want to liberalize the notion of how we think about what is essential and non-essential, to what's safe and not safe. But to not push back on tattoo parlors and that policy by the Georgia governor to me was the start of a pattern. And so I do think as somebody that admires her and her history in public health and our armed forces, it does appear that there's some degree of filter on what she says. And she is minding her words, instead of, as Andrea says, coming out and saying the truth and just being direct about it.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to stay with you here a second, Dr. Gupta, and ask you about the testing comments that she made. That really struck me as one of the headlines out of the interview, when she basically acknowledged-- "acknowledge" may be the wrong word because there may be disputes about this. But essentially saying, "We're not going to be able to ramp up testing under the current situation." Do you concur with her on that? Or do you think they're just trying to come up with an explanation to follow the policy the president wants?
DR. VIN GUPTA:
I think she's right actually. We need outside-the-box thinking. And so she's spot on. Under the current situation, Dr. Osterholm beautifully laid it out. That right now, every new technology that the FDA's putting out there largely is constrained by the same supply chain bottleneck that, Chuck, you and I have talked endlessly about: swabs, reagents. He just said it. He just laid it out. That's why we need more of a focus on interesting, new, creative, outside-the-box thinking, innovations like the Rutgers scientists on saliva. By definition, circumnavigating these supply chain bottlenecks. You spit in a tube. Potentially you can mail it to a lab if you do it at home. That's not that far off. So right now under the way we're thinking about it, the inside-the-box, constrained thinking, yes, I think she's correct.
CHUCK TODD:
Stephanie Ruhle, I want to move to the economy here. And we saw sort of what some said, you know, was an additional amount of money. And, look, half a trillion dollars is not chump change. But considering where we are, do you think it's sustainable for Congress to look at this sector by sector when they come up with bailouts? Or this idea that a few members of Congress have of covering all payrolls for a while, is that going to end up being the path we have to go down?
STEPHANIE RUHLE:
We're getting closer and closer to that idea, Chuck, because if this is a natural disaster, an act of God and Congress wants to say, "Let's put a bear hug around the economy because we've asked the country to basically shut down," then they're going to have to find a different mechanism to support all businesses. Because right now, as you mentioned it, yes, the CARES Act is adding an additional over $500 billion. But you know it's not reaching every business. The head of the Small Business Association says every hour another small business is closing. And even though there may be pent-up demand and everybody wants to get back out there and get to work, it's not going to work that way. We're a consumer-based economy. People aren't rushing back to the store.
CHUCK TODD:
And, Stephanie, the issue of sector by sector, I've been thinking about the politics of bailing out oil companies, or the politics of bailing out casinos, or the politics of those things, of bailing out athletics, for instance. And it can look bad politically, but there's a whole bunch of jobs that are connected to that. How do you avoid that, sort of, political winners and losers unless you go this cover everybody's payroll the same way?
STEPHANIE RUHLE:
Unfortunately, you don't. And those who are the have-nots are going to be the ones who are furious that they're left out. We know from Bill Gates and a number of others this is disproportionately hurting the poorest, or those who don't have big lobbying efforts. So, yes, you can see big oil demanding, saying, "We need to call this an act of God. You need to protect us." Or the cruise industry. But I promise you, small restaurants and barber shops don't have that. So even if we're saying, "Well, the small business effort is to help those small businesses," there are 30 million small businesses in this country. And the first round of small business help only got 1.7 million loans out there. It certainly didn't reach everyone.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Andrea, it is pretty clear that the campaign is going to turn into: Who do you trust to handle the pandemic recovery here? But we may not be through the health crisis at the same time. It's really going to complicate our politics.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Absolutely. And it is already, "Who do you trust?" We see it in the polling that people -- most people in our poll and other polls don't want to reopen as rapidly as the president and some supporters, what could be a new emerging tea party movement, are pressing. But I think that the American people are going to be very afraid. This economy, according to Kevin Hassett, who's come back into the administration as the top economist, people are going to see that it's not going to flip back on. It is going to be slow and in phases. And I'm very concerned, also, that the president, what he did with West Point for instance, showing that he needs to go to West Point, blindsiding West Point, just because he saw Mike Pence going to the Air Force Academy. West Point isn't prepared to announce that they're bringing all those cadets back. That's the kind of thing we have to be really worried about.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah. The president's worried about the president first anyway. Thank you, all three of you. When we come back, we're going to take a close look at how some counties that may determine the 2020 presidential election are faring during the pandemic. But first, going around the country to say "I do" through a face mask.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Data Download time and a good time to check in on the five battleground state counties we're watching in our County to County project to see how they're faring during the coronavirus pandemic. First, Maricopa County, Arizona, home to Phoenix. As of Friday, there were over 3,100 confirmed cases of COVID-19 and 120 people had died. That may sound like a lot, but on a per capita basis, the county is doing pretty well, much better than the national average. Now, that could be because it's a sprawling jurisdiction where social distancing is easier to achieve. Compare that with Kent County, Michigan, home to Grand Rapids, one we are watching for how establishment Republicans may feel about the 2020 match-up. With over 900 cases and 29 deaths, it's a bit closer to the national per capita average. Perhaps most striking in Kent is the unemployment rate. It has jumped from 2.4% to 16% already in just two months. And the rate of cases per capita goes up a bit more when we look at Beaver County, Pennsylvania near Pittsburgh: 337 cases and 47 deaths. A jump in cases there came from nursing homes, which we've seen in other aging blue collar communities. Milwaukee County with its large urban African American population has been particularly hard hit. As of Friday, there have been roughly 2,400 confirmed cases and 154 deaths, very close to the national average for rate of infection. Finally, there's Miami-Dade County in Florida, the hardest hit of our five counties that we're watching. It has the largest number of cases and deaths of our group. And it has the highest rate of infection, well over the national average. This election may well hinge on President Trump's response to the COVID-19 crisis, and how these counties respond themselves may tell us a lot about which way they tilt in November. When we come back, I'll talk to Stacey Abrams about her goal to become Joe Biden's running mate.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Stacey Abrams became a national figure when she lost the Georgia governor's race to Brian Kemp in 2018 by just over a percentage point, though she never conceded amid charges of Republican-led voter suppression. Abrams is high on a list of women Joe Biden is considering as his running mate, and she has been unusually candid in openly promoting herself for the role. She's also created the organization Fair Fight to combat voter suppression around the country. And Stacey Abrams joins me now from Atlanta. Stacey Abrams, welcome back to Meet the Press. And let me just start with the situation in Georgia right now. It's very possible you could be governor right now making these decisions about when to reopen. Do you believe any businesses right now are ready to reopen in the state of Georgia?
STACEY ABRAMS:
I think that reopening business until we have increased our testing and decreased our infection rate is wrongheaded. There is no logic to it. It defies the science that we know. And it ignores the fact that Georgia has the 14th highest infection rate and the seventh slowest testing rate. Those businesses that are being promoted for opening are the businesses that require contact: nail salons, hair dressing, tattoos. These are not places that need to be opened. We need to be focusing on our front-line workers who are in essential businesses, making sure we're testing those who need the help and then move to reopen when we're ready.
CHUCK TODD:
You've called this decision by Governor Kemp a political decision. I'm just curious how you think this benefits him politically. He's taking grief from the president. You and the president are on the same side on this one when it comes to the speed of reopening Georgia. So it doesn't look like it's benefiting him politically. But what, what's your take on it?
STACEY ABRAMS:
Well, I give Donald Trump zero credit for backing away from this because he incited it with his “liberation of the states” narrative. I think Brian Kemp was responding to that call and decided to wrongheadedly move forward. And unfortunately as a result, he found himself cross-waves with the president, with Mike Pence nodding pathetically at the same time about ingesting Clorox as the president gave more false information to the public. But I think all three of these men have mis-served Georgia and mis-served the country.
CHUCK TODD:
How would you launch a national testing strategy if you were running the federal government right now?
STACEY ABRAMS:
I think what Congress has put in place, the investment in testing equipment and funding for our front-line workers, especially for our hospitals, is critical. But I would also be encouraging states like Georgia and the other southern states and Midwestern states that have refused to expand Medicaid to do so immediately. Part of testing is making sure people trust that they can go and be tested. And right now, there is an inadequate equipment, an inadequate strategy. We should increase production. We should make certain it's not simply the testing that's available but the mechanics, the swabs, the vials. And that we are funding people on the front-lines to do this work, to put themselves in harm's way, to make sure we can test, trace and track.
CHUCK TODD:
I'm going to ask you the VP question. I've been, I’ve been interested in watching -- your answer on this question has evolved over the last year. You started with giving the very, sort of, careful answers. Number one, "I don't believe in you run for second place." And then you said, a few months later, "I'd be honored to be considered." And then earlier this week, you made the case that you'd be an excellent running mate. Do you believe you'd be the best running mate Joe Biden could find?
STACEY ABRAMS:
Joe Biden is going to be the president of the United States. And he and his team are going to decide who should be his running mate. He's been very clear that he wants someone that he is compatible with, someone with the skills and the capacity to help him lead and help us recover from four years of incompetence and chaos. And I think a President Joe Biden will know the kind of team he needs. I'm the daughter of two ministers. I was raised to tell the truth. And so when I'm asked a question, I answer it as directly and honestly as I can. And as a young black girl growing up in Mississippi, I learned that if I didn't speak up for myself, no one else would. So I am not -- my mission is to say out loud if I'm asked the question, “yes, I would be willing to serve.” But I know that there's a process that will be played out, that Joe Biden is going to put together the best team possible. And I believe that he will pick the person he needs.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you worry that no matter how qualified you are on paper that the perception you've not run a large organization as an executive office holder or have not won statewide is a knock against you?
STACEY ABRAMS:
For the last year and a half, I have run three national organizations including Fair Fight 2020, which is in 18 states protecting the right to vote. I've been traveling the country promoting a census that is accurate and that helps us prepare for the next pandemic and for redistricting. And I've been working to make certain that poor families, especially those in the South, but around the country, have the services they need. I believe in doing the work. I've been doing it since the day I did not become governor and I will continue to do so. And I do so at a national level because I understand that while I may be grounded in Georgia and a daughter of the South, my responsibility is to do the work to make sure all of our communities are healthy and safe and able to participate in our democracy.
CHUCK TODD:
Would it be a mistake if Joe Biden didn't pick a woman of color to be his running mate?
STACEY ABRAMS:
I think President, a President Biden will do what he has always done, which is respect and value communities of color. I think he understands that black communities and people of color are vital to the success of the Democratic Party. And I think he's going to pick the right person. I, of course, think that a woman of color can bring certain attributes. We have to lift up marginalized communities, communities that do not trust that they will be served because they’ve been the hardest hit by this pandemic. In the state of Georgia alone, while we're only 32% of the population, African Americans comprise 54% of the deaths. And so, yes, having a woman of color on the ticket will help promote not only diversity, but trust. But I trust Joe Biden to pick the person he thinks is the right running mate for him.
CHUCK TODD:
Stacey Abrams, Democrat from Georgia, practicing your version of, of staying healthy, social distancing from your house, from my house to your house. Anyway, thank you for coming on and sharing your views, much appreciated.
STACEY ABRAMS:
Thank you. Take care.
CHUCK TODD:
That's all for today. Thank you for watching. And as always, stay safe. And we'll be back next week, because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.