CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday: A political earthquake.
BECCA PECK:
Relief, excitement, joy.
CHUCK TODD:
That stunning pro-abortion rights vote in red Kansas.
LESLIE BUTSCH:
We will not let the government overreach into our personal rights. We just won't.
CHRISTINA OSTMEYER:
I'm astounded at the turnout.
CHUCK TODD:
Beating back a move by conservatives to build on the overturning of Roe v. Wade.
DANIELLE UNDERWOOD:
We are in this because we believe very strongly in protecting both women and babies.
CHUCK TODD:
What does the vote in Kansas tell us about what might happen in November's midterm elections? My guests this morning: Republican Congresswoman Nancy Mace of South Carolina and Democratic candidate for governor of Georgia Stacey Abrams. Plus, Speaker Pelosi's visit to Taiwan.
SPEAKER NANCY PELOSI:
Our delegation came here to send an unequivocal message: America stands with Taiwan.
CHUCK TODD:
China reacts with provocative military exercises near Taiwan.
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
There is no justification for this extreme, disproportionate and escalatory military response.
CHUCK TODD:
I'll talk to Senator Chris Van Hollen of the Foreign Relations Committee about growing tensions with China. Also, the Senate’s all-night session, with Democrats looking to pass their climate, health and tax bill.
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
It will reduce inflation. It will lower prescription drug costs. It will fight climate change.
CHUCK TODD:
All against total Republican opposition.
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
This bill has nothing to do with what real people in the real world are worried about every day.
CHUCK TODD:
We'll have the latest. Joining me for insight and analysis are: Democratic pollster Cornell Belcher, Anna Palmer, co-founder of Punchbowl News, former North Carolina Governor Pat McCrory and USA Today Washington Bureau Chief, Susan Page. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
And a good Sunday morning. It is fair to say there are two conclusions we can draw from Tuesday's important voting. One is that the history of abortion being more of a motivator for Republicans than for Democrats may be just that: history. When Kansas voters defeated an anti-abortion measure by 18 points, they proved the Democrats' theory of the case -- that the Supreme Court's Roe v. Wade decision would energize their voters, particularly in the suburbs. Remember, this was Kansas. The issue sparked a massive turnout in a red state with a clear message: abortion opponents are overreaching. Nobody saw this kind of landslide result coming. The other lesson is that the GOP remains very much Donald Trump's party despite a more robust anti-Trump insurgency. Look no further than Arizona, where the four Trump-endorsed, election-denying candidates all won their Republican nominations for the top four statewide offices. The races may have been closer, but the Trump team won. Are they easier targets for November -- for Democrats to take down in November? Perhaps, yet it also sets up a potential sweep by some far-right candidates who could refuse to certify any victory by a Democrat in 2024 in that state. But we're going to start with that abortion vote earthquake. It was just the latest data point that tells us this: it is time to rethink everything we thought we knew about this November's midterms.
[BEGIN TAPE]
DAWN RATTAN:
I'm just -- I'm overjoyed.
CHUCK TODD:
After an 18-point defeat of the measure that would have stripped abortion rights from the state's constitution, Democrats are hoping to take the post-Roe backlash in conservative Kansas nationwide.
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
Kansas was just the start. If it's going to happen in Kansas, it's going to happen in a whole lot of states.
CHUCK TODD:
Turnout more than doubled recent midterm primaries in Kansas, approaching presidential levels, on an issue where Republicans have historically had the enthusiasm advantage.
CHRISTINA OSTMEYER:
I'm astounded at the turnout.
PETER NORTHCOTT:
Our movement has endured so much over 50 years. This setback is not going to stop us.
CHUCK TODD:
Kansas Republican Senator Roger Marshall called the results a "gut punch."
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL:
It tells us that there were a lot of people interested in the issue in Kansas, there’s no question about that.
CHUCK TODD:
Already this week, Democratic candidates are making it clear on the airwaves that they're all in.
WOMAN:
He supports a total ban --
WOMAN:
-- even if I'm raped.
BLAKE MASTERS:
You make it illegal and you punish the doctors.
WOMAN:
Blake Masters -- too dangerous for Arizona.
WOMAN:
When millions of women lost their right to choose, Kiggans celebrated because she wants to make abortion illegal.
CHUCK TODD:
Abortion will be directly on the ballot in a handful of states, including battleground Michigan, where a pending ballot measure would enshrine abortion rights with a constitutional amendment. And Democratic Governor Gretchen Whitmer is trying to make her race against Republican Tudor Dixon a referendum on abortion rights.
MAN:
Rape, incest, no exceptions except --
TUDOR DIXON:
Life of the mother.
MAN:
Is that -- you're solid there?
TUDOR DIXON:
That's where I am solid.
CHUCK TODD:
On Friday in Indiana, Governor Eric Holcomb signed a near-total ban on abortion --
CHANTS:
Safe and legal!
CHUCK TODD:
-- the first state post-Roe to pass sweeping restrictions. The law ends legal abortion completely in Indiana, which has been allowed at up to 22 weeks of pregnancy. But it does includes exceptions for the life of the mother, fatal fetal anomalies and some exceptions for rape and incest, which some Indiana House and Senate Republicans tried to remove completely.
STATE REP. RITA FLEMING:
Does this apply to a fifth grader who has been a victim of incest?
STATE REP. KAREN ENGELMAN:
It – it does.
CHUCK TODD:
In the end, Indiana Republicans splintered and they were unsuccessful. Looking to the fall, national Republicans are still counting on inflation and the economy to define the electoral map.
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
They don't have a plan to solve the inflation that they created.
CHUCK TODD:
But as Democrats work to turn individual races into referendums on abortion rights, some Republican candidates, worried about their party's move to the right, are softening their own positions.
MAN:
No exceptions for rape or incest?
SCOTT JENSEN:
Unless the mother's life is in danger.
CHUCK TODD:
But now --
SCOTT JENSEN:
If I've been unclear previously, I want to be clear now: rape and incest, along with endangering the mother's mental or physical health, are acceptable exceptions.
DOUG MASTRIANO:
I don’t give a way for exceptions either.
DOUG MASTRIANO:
The people of Pennsylvania, you decide what abortion looks like. You decide on exceptions.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is Republican Congresswoman Nancy Mace of South Carolina. Congresswoman, welcome back to Meet the Press.
REP. NANCY MACE:
Good morning.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to start to get your reaction to what happened in Kansas. When you look at Kansas and South Carolina, they in some ways, at least on their presidential vote, mirror each other. 56%, I think, for Trump in one, 55% in the other. And here you saw this resounding 59% of Kansans reject the idea of essentially getting rid of a constitutional amendment that could have led to rolling back rights to an abortion. Your reaction?
REP. NANCY MACE:
Well, I think we're seeing it on both sides of the aisle too, the extremities of both sides. On the far left you have folks that want abortion for any reason up until birth. And then on the far right we have states that are trying to ensure that no abortion for any reason including rape and incest victims in girls. And that's not okay with the electorate either. And I see it in my own district and my own state. The vast majority of people here are okay with some guardrails, but they don't want the extremities of either side. And they're seeing states push forward with legislation, like in my state of South Carolina – there's legislation that would ban the word abortion on a website or a website server. There are folks that want to ban women from traveling out of state. There are folks, like in my state, that want to ban abortion for women who are victims of rape and girls who are victims of incest. And that's just, you know, both sides have these extremities where the vast majority of people just are not there right now. And there has to be a place for the center on this very emotional issue.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you this, you know, everything you describe about sort of, of the fallout from this, there was a simple way to avoid this fallout and that was keeping Roe. In hindsight – I know you were somebody that thought you wanted to see Roe v. Wade overturned – was that a mistake?
REP. NANCY MACE:
Well, I am staunchly pro-life. But there were issues with Roe. Even Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg had issues constitutionally – the right to privacy versus the right to equal protection under the law. You saw Joe Biden 40 years ago trying to, you know, look at doing away with it as well. And so I think that there are issues with Roe in terms of the constitutionality of it. And the overturning of it now leaves it to the states, state legislatures in particular, but also Congress can have a role here. But the problem that we have today, Chuck, and I know that you see this every single day, are the political divisions. And because this is such an emotional issue, this is a place where we really should be working together. If you look across the pond, you look at European nations, if you're even allowed to have one, there are gestational limits. In most countries in Europe, you're looking at 12 to 15 weeks there. And there are other, you know, exceptions that we should be looking at. We should be ensuring that life of the mother in every instance is protected. We should ensure – which is one of the reasons I was one of eight Republicans just a few weeks ago to vote to ensure that women have access to contraceptives – there are some basic things we could be doing that all of us agree on, the vast majority of people agree on, and aren't fringy on either side of the aisle. But that's not what we're doing right now.
CHUCK TODD:
No, it's not. And I think, I guess I'm curious how do propose – because you bring up the issue that I think is maybe impossible to create – which is if you believe in this, if you view abortion through the eyes of morality, there's no such thing as moderation. So how do you, how do you legislate moderation here when neither side is comfortable with that compromise?
REP. NANCY MACE:
Well, I actually don't think it's that difficult when you're looking at it from that perspective too. If you look at it from Congress, from our role, I mean, there can be gestational, reasonable gestational limits for most people. 75% of Americans want some guardrails. They support guardrails on abortion, whether they're pro-choice or pro-life. Only 25% are really, you know, on the fringes of either side on this particular issue. So if you look at gestational limits, whether it's 15 weeks or 20 weeks, whether you ensure protection for fetal abnormalities, life of the mother in every instance or certainly rape and incest victims, there are things in there that we can all agree on as Americans, and particularly in a state, whether it's South Carolina or any other state, that's banning abortion all together or trying to, then women's access to contraceptives has got to be a guarantee. We have rural counties in South Carolina without a single OBGYN doctor. How is a woman supposed to get any kind of care — health care, medical care, prenatal care, care for her infant – when those resources don't exist? And so you've got to look at it, I think, from a very, I think, centrist perspective, which is where 75% of America is. Put in guardrails that they're comfortable with and let's move forward. And we can do this at the federal level and give some guidance to states or states can do it as well. But we're seeing the extremities, and we're going to continue to until Congress steps in, see extremities on both sides, which is not where the American people are.
CHUCK TODD:
It seems like, it seem like you think Congress has to step in here. You brought up the OBGYN issue. 15 states right now want to criminalize the doctor, okay – want to make the – basically, if there's a crime committed here, it's not the woman, it would be the doctor. As you know, you already talked about the problem of getting OBGYN into practicing in rural South Carolina. A lot of these OBGYNs don't want to practice in states with these restrictive laws because they don't know – you know, they have to sit here and wait to declare an emergency to intervene medically. And so they figure, "You know what? I'm going to practice medicine in a state that makes the abortion laws safe." How do you do this? How do you fix this federally?
REP. NANCY MACE:
It is going to be, it is going to be an issue. I do think that Congress, because Roe v. Wade was overturned, that we do have an opportunity here to work together to ensure that those things don't take place. And you can do that at the federal level with legislation. But on this particular issue, it's going to take Republicans and Democrats working together to get it in a place where you can do it in a bicameral fashion and a bipartisan fashion and pass legislation. And I think you can look at gestational limits that are reasonable for most Americans. But also, you’ve got – and one of my concerns is you've got states that are going to try to ban women from traveling, that don’t – that if you're raped, that you've got to report it to the police. Well, I was raped when I was 16, and it took me a week to tell my mother. By that time, any evidence would've been gone. And the violation of a woman's privacy – I can't tell you how traumatic that event was in my life. In my own home state, they want women to be required and mandated to report when they are raped. And I just can't even imagine a world where you’re a girl, a teenage girl who's been raped, to have to report those things. And, you know, “Handmaid's Tale” was not supposed to be a road map, right? This is a place where we can be, we can be in the center. We can protect life and we can protect where people are on both sides of the aisle. And so it's important to take that perspective. And that's the perspective that Congress should have on everything that we do. But as you know, we're just so divided.
CHUCK TODD:
Bottom line, do you think it is bad if the Republican Party becomes the party of abortion bans?
REP. NANCY MACE:
Well, I am staunchly pro-life. I have a 100% pro-life voting record. I do think that it will be an issue in November if we're not moderating ourselves, that we are including exceptions for women who've been raped, for girls who are victims of incest, and certainly in every instance where the life of the mother is at stake. And that is a position that I have staked out that's really important to me personally. But that's where the vast majority of women are in my state. And I'm going to continue to fight for those things. But we can't go to the far corners of the right or the far corners of the left because the left wants abortion for any reason up until the birth of the child, which is insane to me and insane to most of America. So somewhere in the middle is where we've got to meet. And I do believe that Congress has a role. And I want to play a part in that role in shaping policy for the future for every American in our country.
CHUCK TODD:
Congresswoman Nancy Mace, Republican from South Carolina. Her district basically represents a large part of Charleston, South Carolina. Congresswoman, thanks for coming on and sharing your perspective.
REP. NANCY MACE:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is Stacey Abrams, who is the Democratic nominee for governor of Georgia. She's in a rematch with Brian Kemp, who defeated her four years ago very narrowly. Ms. Abrams, welcome back to Meet the Press.
STACEY ABRAMS:
It's my pleasure to be here, thanks for having me.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, let's start – this lead conversation is about the impact of what we saw in Kansas and obviously post-Dobbs. How front and center do you believe the abortion debate should be for Democrats all around the country, let alone your campaign?
STACEY ABRAMS:
It is an essential conversation. It is about the freedom of women to direct their lives. It is about health care freedom. And it is cutting across demographics. It's cutting across ideology. It is cutting across the questions that so often dominate elections at this moment because for women this is a health care conversation. It is an economic conversation. It is also just a conversation about whether our citizenship is equal to men in this country, depending on which state you live in.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, it's interesting. You even seem to be arguing it’s like, look, the ups and downs of the economy, you know that may motivate you on one hand, but, hey, these laws are longer term. I mean, do you even think abortion – in your mind the abortion issue is almost bigger than the economy long term?
STACEY ABRAMS:
I would say that the economic vicissitudes are going to continue. And I would never underplay how important it is for us to think about putting money in people's pockets and putting a roof over their heads. But we know that for women, these abortion rights fights are about their ability to control their lives, to have the ability to participate in the economy, to have the ability to determine whether forced pregnancy is in their future. And so, yes, I would urge every voter to think about the economy's going to go up and down, but these laws when they become solidified change the future for every woman that you know.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to get some clarity on your position specifically, because you've said this. I want to put up what you said very recently on your abortion position. You said this: "My intention is going to be to pass legislation that says a woman has the right to an abortion, and that right continues until a physician determines the fetus is viable outside of the body, except in the case of protecting the woman's life or health." How do you put legislation around that?
STACEY ABRAMS:
You put legislation around that by returning to what we know is the structural framework of Roe v. Wade. You do it by not setting arbitrary, gestational limits, because we know that those rarely actually reflect medical decision making. This is a medical decision. And when we give it back to doctors, when we tell women and their doctors to make these choices, what we are saying is we respect the responsibility that women have and the obligation that doctors have. That politicians are not scientists. And that we should not be setting into law these moving targets that do not reflect the reality that women face when they're sitting in that doctor's office.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, the person on the right who wants to see some restrictions on abortion is going to argue that even though you're not saying you're for abortion all the way up to the end of – that essentially that law would allow abortion all the way up to the end of a pregnancy. Would you want to have legislation to put guard rails on that?
STACEY ABRAMS:
The guard rails are holding the physician accountable. And that's the place where I think we've gotten a bit far afield. There is no woman who at eight months has not cherished the notion of this pregnancy. If you have conversations with women, you know that that is one of the most difficult moments. And the reality is that to put an arbitrary date in a law devalues the pain and the tragedy of that moment. A doctor is not going to take an action that is not medically required. And what we are saying is that this is a medical decision. I understand that there are those who would feel better if we plucked a date out of the air. But we know that that is not scientifically supportable. But we also know that the tragedy of exceptions, you cannot write every exception into the law. And that is where we find ourselves today in Georgia. Brian Kemp does not permit these exceptions to be real. And in a state where we have 82 counties without an OB/GYN, 64 counties without a surgeon, 18 counties without a family doctor, and nine without a doctor at all, setting arbitrary limits that are not grounded in the reality of what women face is deeply problematic and ultimately cruel.
CHUCK TODD:
So this is where, I mean, you're having a science conversation, a medical conversation, which is the conversation most women are having. There's also the political reality. You get elected governor, you're going to have probably a Republican legislature. So in order to — you may have to compromise in order to get a better law that won't be what you want. Are you willing to do that? Are you willing to essentially go from what it is now to 15 weeks, if that's what you're able to do as governor because you sort of write your laws with the legislature that you have, not the one that you want?
STACEY ABRAMS:
Where we stood in Georgia prior to Brian Kemp was a 20-week ban, that I also found deeply objectionable. But what Brian Kemp has done is go so far afield that 72% of women — 72% of Georgians disagree with what we have right now, which is almost a total ban. When you say six-week ban, it's about 54%. But when you understand that it is roughly a total ban on abortion, we know that, regardless of your political posture, you disagree with where we are. As someone who served in the legislature for 11 years and was lauded by both parties for my ability to navigate, I will certainly get the best law we can. But we begin making decisions based on what it should be. And then yes, of course, you work towards what you can get. But we have to start with a governor who actually believes that a woman should have the right to control her body and to control her economic freedom.
CHUCK TODD:
What I'm just trying to get at here is you're not going to be rigid to the point of, if you don't get it your way, you're not going to change the law.
STACEY ABRAMS:
That's not how politics has ever worked, unless, of course, you're Brian Kemp, who believes that your extreme agenda should trump everyone else's decision making and everyone else's needs.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you quickly about your race. There is a pattern developing. If you just look at the polling, Raphael Warnock seems to have a steady lead on Herschel Walker. Brian Kemp in all those same polls seems to have a narrow lead on you. It does appear as if he's got a little bit of — acquired some Teflon by taking on Trump. Is that making it a little bit harder to defeat him this year, is that it's harder to make him a Trump ally?
STACEY ABRAMS:
Brian Kemp is doing an excellent job of showing that he is an extremist who has a hard right agenda that is not in the best interest of Georgia. We just lost Music Midtown, $50 million coming out of our economy because Brian Kemp weakened gun laws in Georgia at a time where guns are the number one killer of our children and gun violence – we are the number nine state for gun violence. What he has benefited from is having, yes, a primary that was fairly lackluster in the end. But what people are realizing and why he remains below 50% is that Georgians realize we do not have to make a choice between a strong economy and an extremist agenda. I'm the only candidate who is proposing a comprehensive plan for how we build our economy and protect our freedoms. Brian Kemp refuses to do so. And so I believe that this election, as we move into Labor Day, that people are going to continue to pay attention to his extreme position on abortion, his extreme position on guns, his extreme position on refusing to take action to help the people of Georgia when we are suffering from a health care crisis and a housing crisis. And that the more they pay attention, the more they will realize that his high watermark was on that primary day.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, Stacey Abrams, in a race that we will all be watching very closely from here. Thanks for coming on, stay safe on the trail.
STACEY ABRAMS:
Thank you so much, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
And we should let folks know we invited Governor Kemp on. We did not receive a response. Coming up, Speaker Pelosi's visit to Taiwan sparks growing tensions between the United States and China. When we come back, I'm going to talk to Senator Chris Van Hollen of Maryland about that and the all-nighter that they pulled in the Senate. Stay with us.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. China is choosing to react with fury over Speaker Nancy Pelosi's visit to Taiwan. The Chinese military has been carrying out some days of threatening exercises on all sides of Taiwan, which China of course considers part of its territory. In addition, China has cut off talks with the United States on all sorts of issues, including illegal immigration, drug trafficking, climate, and even our mid-level military back and forth, and the government sanctioned Pelosi and her family. So joining me now to dive into this a little bit is Senator Chris Van Hollen of Maryland. He's on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Senator Van Hollen, welcome back to Meet the Press. I'll be honest. It looks like you guys have had an all-nighter.
SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN:
Chuck, we've been here all night and we're still going on the Inflation Reduction Act. Republicans are offering amendment after amendment to try to sabotage the bill, but I'm confident we'll get it over the finish line.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, let me ask you, let me ask you a couple questions about the bill. The biggest thing that happened was right before the bill went to a vote. And that was the parliamentarian’s decision on the prescription drug benefit. Here's the bottom line: the good news for Medicare patients is that this bill should lower prescription drug costs if you're on Medicare. But now that there is no longer a part of this bill that will effectively protect those not on Medicare, should folks who aren't on Medicare expect to see the prescription drug companies decide, "Well, we can't make money over here, so we're going to raise prices over there?” It certainly, it certainly seems like that's more likely to happen than not.
SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN:
Well, Chuck, first of all as you've said, the centerpiece of this bill was finally giving Medicare the power to negotiate drug prices and that will reduce drug prices for seniors in addition to the fact that we have a cap of $2,000 in out-of-pocket costs. Look, I wish we'd gotten this other provision in. If we had 10 Republicans, we could get it done. We're going to have to come back to that. And we will be watching the pharmaceutical industry like a hawk. And hopefully, if they made that kind of move, we would have enough votes to respond. But I just want to stress the fact that since I've been here in the Congress, including my time in the House, we've been trying to get Medicare the power to negotiate drug prices. It looks like we're finally there.
CHUCK TODD:
But getting them there, it doesn’t impact — what can be done? I mean, do you think you're going to have to pass a law to do this, or are you just hoping the pharmaceutical industry, out of the goodness of their heart, doesn't raise prices for the rest of us?
SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN:
Well, let me first say we may have a vote later this morning on a $30 monthly cap on insulin. And so Republicans will have a chance to join us in that. According to the parliamentarian, we're going to need their votes to get that done. So that will be some test. But look, we're going to keep at this. We want to make sure that we lower drug prices for every American. And it is an important start to get this in place for the Medicare program and tens of millions of seniors around the country, including a million in Maryland who get Medicare.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, I invited you on because I wanted to talk some of what happened in Taiwan and what's happening right now to Taiwan. Let me just state this: Speaker Pelosi's trip – again, the Chinese chose to be outraged. This is on them, not on her. But was her trip worth it, given all the fallout?
SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN:
I think it was, Chuck, because we need to be very clear that China doesn't get to dictate which U.S. officials go to Taiwan and when they go to Taiwan. As you know, we send congressional delegations frequently. A former speaker of the House has been to Taiwan in the past. And what President Xi decided to do was manufacture a crisis over Pelosi's visit. He's got, as you know, this fall, the Communist Party Congress is coming up. He's seeking an unprecedented third term as leader of China. And this is saber-rattling and, you know, chest-bumping by President Xi.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, it does look like that's what it is. And so I understand in the moment, we're trying to deescalate. But what do you want to see the United States, what do you want to see the Biden Administration do, in the next, say, three to six months to reassure the Vietnams, the Japans, the Philippines, who are nervous about what China's doing here, they're nervous about if we're going to have Taiwan's back, do we have to send a message again that we're going to have their back?
SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN:
Well, I think we've been very clear, and the Biden Administration has been clear, that we are adhering to U.S. policy, which is that we recognize our One China Policy, but we've also been firm and straight from the very start that we will oppose any effort to reunify Taiwan by force, by violence. And we've reassured our Japanese partners and others of that. In fact, Chuck, I think this Chinese action of putting missiles into Japan's economic zone, exclusive economic zone, is going to backfire. I think it's going to cause Japan to increase its defense spending and seek even closer military engagement and cooperation with the United States, which is already good. So I think this is going to backfire on China. Yes, we have to deescalate. We also have to be firm in making our policy clear.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think it's inevitable that China's going to make a run at Taiwan in the next five years?
SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN:
I don't think it's inevitable. We need to help Taiwan make that as difficult as possible for China. And we've been doing that by supplying China, excuse me, supplying Taiwan with military assistance. We need to continue to do that to make Taiwan into the porcupine so that when, you know, China looks at Taiwan, it realizes that this is going to be a hell of a fight and not a winnable fight. And I do think when they look to what Putin tried to do in Ukraine they will see how a determined people can thwart someone like a dictator like Putin, who of course thought he was going to walk into Kyiv in a matter of weeks. And that was not possible.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, for a long time, no U.S. official wanted to describe our relationship with China in strictly adversarial terms, but how do we not look at the cutting off of military ties, climate ties, immigration, to all these things, and not say we're in a cold war with China?
SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN:
Well, I don't think we're in a cold war with China yet. A lot of that depends on what China does next. And there's no doubt that President Xi has escalated, you know, China's actions against Taiwan, even before the Pelosi visit, and has been more aggressive throughout the region.
At the same time, we have been trying to cooperate with them on these other measures, as you say. I believe they'll be back at the table on those measures. It is important that we have that military-to-military dialogue. But it is important that we also confront and check China, where it's tried to export its model of authoritarianism around the world in Africa, and the Middle East and other places.
CHUCK TODD:
Senator Chris Van Hollen, it's been a long night. You were very flexible for us, I know, with the back and forth. You've got to get back to voting. I appreciate you spending a few minutes with us and our viewers here to get the latest on this. Thank you.
SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN:
Thank you. Good to be with you.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, that abortion vote in Kansas. Just one reason why everything we thought we knew about the November midterms may not be true after all. Panel is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Panel is here: Anna Palmer, co-founder of Punchbowl News; Democratic pollster Cornell Belcher; the former governor of North Carolina Pat McCrory and the bureau chief here in Washington for USA Today, Susan Page. Susan, you're a Kansas native.
SUSAN PAGE:
I am.
CHUCK TODD:
And you even said you didn't leave the state until you went to college.
SUSAN PAGE:
It was a shock.
CHUCK TODD:
So you know this. Speaking of shocks, Kansas native Susan Page, how shocked are you?
SUSAN PAGE:
I was shocked. I was surprised. Maybe not necessarily that the amendment would go down, but the margin of the victory was, I thought, quite stunning. And it was a sign. You know, Kansas is a conservative state for sure. It's a state that is very reliably Republican when you look at the presidential race. But it's also a state with a populist history and an independent streak. Just consider this: of the last ten elected governors in Kansas, five of them have been Democrats, including the current one.
CHUCK TODD:
That's an amazing stat. You shared it earlier. That is one of those that people are going to go, "Oh, maybe I didn't understand Kansas the way I should have."
SUSAN PAGE:
Yeah. It's a pragmatic state. It is a conservative state. I'll tell you: this was a shock to people I talked to in my home state on both sides of this issue.
CHUCK TODD:
Eisenhower, Bob Dole. There is a similarity there. Pat, your reaction. How shocked were you?
PAT McCRORY:
Maybe this proves that the Supreme Court was right in returning the decision back to —
CHUCK TODD:
Really?
PAT McCRORY:
— the states and clarifying exactly – I'm a constitutional conservative who believed in overturning Roe vs. Wade and letting the states make the decisions. Kansas made a decision, and it probably represents what the majority of Kansas people believe. And that's what the Supreme Court majority said should happen. Now, the dilemma is this, and this is part of the game, every Republican and Democrat who just got through a primary had filled out surveys either by Planned Parenthood or by a pro-life group which they put their absolute answers on, because I have had to fill out these surveys where, "Are you for or against in absolute measures?" And every person who's running for office has filled out one of those surveys. Now, all of a sudden, you even see Stacey Abrams kind of clarifying her remarks. And I guarantee you there's a survey somewhere out there where she did absolute in order to win a primary to begin with. And this is the dilemma for all the politicians on the right and the left. The people are not on the absolute side. And you heard that from the congresswoman from South Carolina, too. The people are in favor of some restrictions, but reasonable restrictions. And that's going to be the interesting debate at the state and possibly federal level. The Republicans on my side are a little hypocritical right now because they said, "Return it to the states." Then a day later, they said, "Let's have federal legislation." I think they're going to be backing off.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah. I wonder if Mitch McConnell regrets that remark. I don't know, Anna.
ANNA PALMER:
Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of senators don't want this issue, but they feel like they're getting pressure now to have these kind of rules that are, and kind of bills that are going to be mandates. If you're Democrats, this is the gift that keeps on giving. The culture wars have shifted on abortion in a way that – I mean, I remember getting into reporting almost 20 years ago and George W. Bush trying to have constitutional amendments and different state amendments so that they could try to turn out and gin up voters. Democrats are going to use it this time all the way to the election.
CORNELL BELCHER:
You think?
CHUCK TODD:
I mean, Cornell, you're the party of the – I mean, the party of the cultural –
PAT McCRORY:
Oh my gosh. Wearing the white suit.
CHUCK TODD:
– the party of the cultural issues now. So, I mean, if Stacy Abrams wins, she's going to win on guns and abortion.
CORNELL BELCHER:
Well, so here's the thing. I love that the governor's arguing process because he knows if you're arguing process in politics, it's a problem. Look, Chuck, you and I have talked about this conversation. I've been on this show and I've said the moment that suburban moms – you know, they're voting on abortion on the right. But the moment that suburban moms think that their right to choose is going to go away, it's going to become a voting issue and this could change the dynamics of the – change the dynamics. And that's what you're seeing. It's not only the turnout you saw in Kansas. Right now, we're getting poll after poll that shows motivation up. Look, six months ago, I thought there were a lot of signs along the road here that looked like 2010. For someone who sat in 2010, a part of the Obama team, it looked like 2010 going in. It doesn't look like that now. If you look at the enthusiasm for younger voters, you look at the enthusiasm for women voters. Look, in July of 2010, African Americans – 29% of African Americans said that election was more important than the past. As of last week, 60% of African Americans say that this election is more important than past elections. You have, they have given us a – they have awoken a sleeping giant with this issue.
PAT McCRORY:
You may have peaked too early. I think we're going to go back to the economy and immigration.
CHUCK TODD:
Look. I – it is interesting. Corry Bliss, who I really respect a lot on the right side as a Republican strategist, he's convinced of your theory, that, "No, no, no, no no. This will revert to the norm." This feels different, Susan.
SUSAN PAGE:
You know why it's not going to fade away and go back to the economy? Economy will be important; no question about that. But people are going to be reminded every day about this issue because states are taking action —
CHUCK TODD:
Look at Indiana.
SUSAN PAGE:
— including what was in Indiana this weekend. And also, these stories that we see about the repercussions of the Supreme Court decision are going to be on the front pages of newspapers. Who does not know the story of the ten-year-old girl raped in Ohio, forced to go to Indiana to get an abortion? That is, that is going to keep this issue front and center.
CORNELL BELCHER:
Unintended consequences are going to keep trickling, trickling out. This will not go away. The economy's a top issue every election cycle. Every election cycle. But freedom is on the ballot now, and it's becoming not a referendum –
PAT McCRORY:
For the Republicans, too, in statehouses. The senate and houses – both the senate and house seats in state legislatures are gerrymandered, unlike the U.S. Senate. And therefore, they're worried about the primaries. But now that the primaries are over, I do not think you'll see a lot of movement.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Anna, I get a sense that in this issue too many Republican elected officials thought that their pro-life constituents were more mainstream than they actually were. Because Roger Marshall's reaction to this, the Kansas senator, he's like, "I can't believe this." It's like, "Wow, you didn't believe your own polling?" Like, if you had polled this, you would have known where Kansas voters were.
ANNA PALMER:
Right. I mean, I think you have these politicians that have these kind of more extreme positions and have really staked out those claims. Plus, you have these outside groups for 50 years who have been pushing this issue. Finally got what they wanted, Roe vs. Wade, and now they're moving the whole ball into a whole other game.
CORNELL BELCHER:
Can I just--
CHUCK TODD:
What is pro-life now? Define what a pro-life –and I say this, like if you – I heard Nancy Mace say, "I'm pro-life." Well, some pro-lifers say, "If you want the exceptions she wants, you're not pro-life." What is the definition anymore?
PAT McCRORY:
I think, I think both sides are – “What is pro-choice?” is going to be another question. Stacey Abrams was giving you a transition from pro-choice. I think what you're going to see is some reasonable guidelines of what abortion is. But be careful, Democrats, on this issue. Don't overplay your cards. Because on surveys, people are still more conservative on the abortion issue, but they aren't willing to go to the extreme.
CORNELL BELCHER:
Can I get one quick thing —
CHUCK TODD:
Last thing.
CORNELL BELCHER:
One quick thing. When you win with 60% in Kansas, it's not just Democrats. And what you see in polling is that some Republican women, they may not be pro-choice but they don't like the idea of the government taking away their choices.
CHUCK TODD:
Do they become single-issue voters though?
CORNELL BELCHER:
I think they do.
PAT McCRORY:
That’s, that’s the question.
CHUCK TODD:
Okay. Right. And that's what we're going to find out. I think that will tell us a lot in November.
CORNELL BELCHER:
Or stay home.
CHUCK TODD:
Thank you. Before we go to break, we want to, we want to let you know about something you need to be subscribing to right now: it's our excellent newsletter, our daily political newsletter for Meet the Press called First Read and the NBC News Political Unit. Every morning, we bring you the newest polling data, the freshest reporting from the campaign trail, and of course, the best analysis on the top political stories of the day. Sign up. Scan the QR code on your screen now or go to NBCNews.com/FirstRead. Okay, my promotion's over. Coming up, the good news President Biden just got at the end of perhaps his best week yet in the White House. And it was all while in Covid quarantine. He's out of that, too. We'll be right back.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back, Data Download time. And what else are we going to be doing but Kansas? Some people like to think of that state as ruby red, rural. But in terms of racial diversity and education it's actually a state that looks a lot more like the rest of the country than one might think. And the results of this abortion amendment this week could give us some clues about November. Look, overall, the “no” vote over-performed Joe Biden's totals in Kansas across the board, 59%. And you can see, I'll show you here, it was across the board no matter what kind of county. Big blue county, Johnson County, Kansas, that's right outside of Kansas City, this was a county that Joe Biden carried with 53%. Look what the “no” vote did here, 69%, an overperformance of 17 points from the Biden vote. But that actually was duplicated across the state. In fact, in some rural counties even better than that. Here's Russell County, Kansas, home of Bob Dole, Mr. Republican. Joe Bide of course only got 17% in Bob Dole's home county. But look what the “no” vote got here: 45%. All over rural Kansas the “no” vote performed somewhere in the thirties or higher. It is one of the explanations for why this won so big. The other thing we saw here was a spike in voter turnout and new voters showing up. Look at this. New voter registrations since the Dobbs decision in Kansas spiked here. You see that? Over 8,000 new voter registrations, 68% of them women. In Colorado and Michigan, two other states that we expect to see abortion referendum on the ballot, we're seeing a similar spike in new registrations favoring women, but not like Kansas. Could this shift even more? This is something to watch, trust me. When we come back Dick Cheney takes on Donald Trump.
[BEGIN TAPE]
FMR. VICE PRES. DICK CHENEY:
He's a coward. A real man wouldn't lie to his supporters.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
That's from a new campaign ad the former vice president just made for his daughter Liz. And he had a lot more than that to say about Mr. Trump. Stay with us.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Well, President Biden got some good news just this morning. He's tested negative for Covid, and he's out of isolation and on his way to Rehoboth Beach, Delaware. This comes at the end of what may have been Joe Biden's best week as president: the killing of Al-Qaeda's leader, Ayman al-Zawahiri, the abortion vote in Kansas, a huge jobs report on Friday, falling gas prices, and the all-night vote on the Democrats' climate, energy, and health care bill looks like it's going to go through. Pretty good for a guy with approval ratings in the thirties. Cornell, look, I do think that this midterm has separated out presidential approval from where we are. I think Donald Trump's had a hand in that. But if Joe Biden can't see his approval ratings rise after a week like this well – you've got to ask yourself, is this something he can ever pull out of?
CORNELL BELCHER:
Well, yes. I mean, we've seen it before. But look, the arc – the narrative arc of a presidency is different from the narrative arc of someone running for Congress, right? They have a four-year arc here. Look, you know, in 2010 Obama's numbers weren't great either, right? But he had a story to tell. And, I think going in after the midterms I think Biden's going to have a really good story to tell about sort of tackling inflation, strong economy, major investments in clean energy, something our base really wanted, you know, supporting women's choice. I think he's going to have a pretty strong record to stand on after the midterms. I think the arc of his narrative is going to start going up.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Anna, his legislative record is looking pretty good. Who gets the credit for it? Is this a Schumer/Pelosi show? Or is this, you know, Biden's White House deserves more credit than they're getting?
ANNA PALMER:
I mean, all of the things you've just mentioned the common denominator is Joe Biden wasn't involved or leading the charge on any of them publicly. I mean he – on the Hill I think Democrats want to be as far away from Joe Biden right now as they can be. This is going to go all to Chuck Schumer, the fact that he's kind of been an untested leader and he has gotten a lot of things done here. Everybody would have thought that this was going to be a much smaller package when it came to this reconciliation bill. They come together with this kind of sneak attack, outwits McConnell. And they get this much larger package through, giving Democrats something to run on. I mean, Democrats have been kind of dead man walking on Capitol Hill looking towards the midterm election. And now I think they feel like there is some momentum there.
SUSAN PAGE:
You know, the weirdness is that presidential approval ratings traditional matter a lot in midterms, especially if they're as low as they are for Joe Biden. But you have this unprecedented situation where you've got two presidents who are big factors in this midterm. You've got Joe Biden and you've got Donald Trump. And maybe Donald Trump is more of a negative for Republicans, more of a positive for Democrats than Joe Biden is for either one.
CORNELL BELCHER:
That’s smart.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah, I've heard that –
PAT McCRORY:
Oh.
CHUCK TODD:
I've heard this, Pat, that basically hating Trump is better for the Democrat base than hating Biden is for the Republican base --
PAT McCRORY:
Well, consultants like Cornell are going to want Biden to go back in the basement. That's how he became president. And he had his best week. You're right, Nancy Pelosi overshadowed him without his permission. Chuck Schumer did the agreement with Joe Manchin without him. Actually the best thing was – for the Democrats, I hate to say it, was Jon Stewart. Jon Stewart put us Republicans regarding veterans on the defensive. And one lesson to both the woke Democrats and the conservative Republicans is don't pick a fight with a comedian like Jon Stewart or Bill Maher or David Chappelle. They will win. They are quicker than us politicians. And I think right now the only guy on the offensive was the governor of Florida, DeSantis. And yet Trump will not let him share any spotlight.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, speaking of Trump, I can't let the show go without – I mean, this ad I think is going to be remarkable regardless of what happens to Liz Cheney and that is this Dick Cheney direct-to-camera rebuke of Donald Trump. Take a look.
[BEGIN TAPE]
FMR. VICE PRES. DICK CHENEY:
In our nation's 246-year-history there has never been an individual who is a greater threat to our republic than Donald Trump. He tried to steal the last election using lies and violence to keep himself in power after the voters had rejected him. He's a coward. A real man wouldn't lie to his supporters.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Susan, this feels like a declaration more than it feels like some sort of ad campaign for a House race. This feels like a declaration. Team Cheney is coming after Trump wherever he is regardless of what happens --
SUSAN PAGE:
Pretty personal –
CHUCK TODD:
– in Wyoming.
SUSAN PAGE:
But remember when Dick Cheney was the GOP? You know, Dick Cheney, it's been 14 years since he left the White House. It is no longer the George Bush, George W. Bush/Dick Cheney GOP. It is –
CHUCK TODD:
Not even close –
SUSAN PAGE:
– Donald Trump's Republican Party. And we see that in the primaries. We're going to see that I suspect in the Wyoming primary next week.
CORNELL BELCHER:
Was it a Cheney ad? I thought it was the first Biden reelection ad.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, it is, been – you know, one thing Anna, the anti-Trump forces in the Republican Party got closer. You know, it was one of these things, like you look at Arizona, you look at these places: Trump won, but it was harder but he's still winning. And sort of what I – and I don't know what the anti-Trump forces do.
ANNA PALMER:
Yeah, I agree with you. When you look at it he's not as strong, right? The tail is not in the same place that it was two, four years ago. But to your point, those are the people that are still on the ballot in the midterms. And he's not going anywhere. Look at CPAC, right? That is Trump's Republican Party, and it is on display.
CHUCK TODD:
You think you'll ever be invited to CPAC again, what CPAC is today?
PAT McCRORY:
Who me?
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
PAT McCRORY:
No, I never was. I do think the big question for the Senate candidates out there is do you accept a Trump invitation?
CHUCK TODD:
That's a fascinating decision.
PAT McCRORY:
And by the way, the Democrats have certainly decided they don't want Biden anywhere around.
CORNELL BELCHER:
I think that depends.
CHUCK TODD:
Alright. We shall see.
PAT McCRORY:
I do too.
CHUCK TODD:
Alright. That's all we have for today. Thank you for watching. I'm sorry to see Juan Soto go. I know I was hoping he'd stay last week. Go Padres? We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.