CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday: Impeachment and the Republican Party split.
REP. JASON CROW:
They don't want to talk about it, and I understand why, but we are going to talk about it. We're going to hold folks accountable.
CHUCK TODD:
President Trump's second impeachment trial begins this week, with the GOP torn between party Republicans --
SEN. BEN SASSE:
Personality cults are not conservative. Conspiracy theories aren't conservative.
CHUCK TODD:
-- and Trump Republicans.
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
This is about -- I believe -- is a psychological obsession with a president. They can't just let it go.
CHUCK TODD:
This as QAnon-friendly Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene --
REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE:
The party is his. It doesn't belong to anybody else.
CHUCK TODD:
--- is stripped of committee assignments by Democrats, with almost all Republicans voting with her.
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY:
I think it would be helpful if you could hear exactly what she told all of us, denouncing QAnon. I don't know if I say it right. I don't even know what it is.
REP. STENY HOYER:
I urge my colleagues to look at that image and tell me what message you think it sends.
CHUCK TODD:
My guests this morning: Republican Sen. Bill Cassidy of Louisiana and Congressman Adam Schiff, the Democrats' lead manager from the last impeachment. Plus, Covid cases dropping.
DR. ANDREA BLOMKAMS:
Numbers have stabilized. We're holding our breath a little bit and hoping it stays that way.
CHUCK TODD:
The lowest totals in months. When can we open schools? And how much of a threat are those new variants?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
If they do become dominant we may need to upgrade the vaccine. That's exactly the direction we're going right now.
CHUCK TODD:
I'll talk to Dr. Anthony Fauci this morning. And Democrats decide to go at it alone on Covid relief.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I’m not cutting the size of the checks. They're going to be $1,400, period.
CHUCK TODD:
Joining me for insight and analysis are: Anna Palmer, founder of Punchbowl News, former RNC chairman Michael Steele, Maria Teresa Kumar, president of Voto Latino and David French, senior editor of The Dispatch. Welcome to Sunday. It’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, a good Sunday morning. There is a through-line connecting how the Republican Party is handling three cases that will help define what this party stands for in the near term: Liz Cheney, the third-ranking Republican in the House, the QAnon-friendly freshman Congresswoman from Georgia, Marjorie Taylor Greene and, of course, former President Trump, whose second impeachment trial begins on Tuesday. All three cases reveal to what degree the post-Trump GOP remains beholden to the 45th president. Look no further than this: House Republicans chose to vote on Cheney's position in leadership, because she voted to impeach Mr. Trump. They took a pass on Greene, even though she has supported calls for the execution of Democrats and questioned if school shootings really happened. In other words, Cheney's Republican career was threatened more for rejecting dangerous conspiracy theories than Greene's was for promoting them. The next litmus test will come at President Trump's impeachment trial this week. All 50 Senate Democrats are almost certain to take what is a politically safe vote for them to convict. What will Republicans do? House Republicans voted by a huge margin to keep Liz Cheney as the number three in her party, but that was a secret ballot. Senate Republicans won't have that luxury. What would they do if they did? And what will they do when their voters are watching?
REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE:The party is his. It doesn't belong to anybody else.
CHUCK TODD:
Republicans grappling with the party's identity face another test this week, as the Senate hears arguments in Donald Trump's second impeachment trial.
HOUSE SPEAKER PRO TEMPORE:
The resolution is adopted.
CHUCK TODD:
On Thursday, just 11 House Republicans voted to strip Georgia's Marjorie Taylor Greene of her committee assignments after she endorsed violence against top Democrats, called school shootings a "hoax" and 9/11 a conspiracy theory.
REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE: Q is a patriot. We know that for sure. It's odd there's never any evidence of a plane in the Pentagon.
CHUCK TODD:
Greene said she regrets those comments, but pointed fingers.
REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE:
Will we allow the media -- that is just as guilty as QAnon of presenting truth and lies -- to divide us?
CHUCK TODD:
House Republican leader Kevin McCarthy who condemned QAnon months ago --
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY:
There is no place for QAnon in the Republican Party.
CHUCK TODD:
-- claimed this week he does not know what it is.
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY:
Denouncing Q-on -- I don't know if I say it right. I don't even know what it is.
CHUCK TODD:
Meanwhile, 61 House Republicans voted in a secret ballot to strip Congresswoman Liz Cheney, who supported impeachment, of her leadership post. In the Senate, many Republicans have made it clear they support Cheney, and that Greene does not belong in Congress.
SEN. KEVIN CRAMER:
Is she a good face for the Republican Party? She is not.
CHUCK TODD:
Republican leader Mitch McConnell, quote: "Loony lies and conspiracy theories are cancer for the Republican Party and our country." North Carolina's Thom Tillis tweeted: "It's not conservative, it's insane." But Republican senators have to decide how willing they are to challenge the half of the party that calls themselves "Trump Republicans." The answer from some: not very.
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
This is about -- I believe -- is a psychological obsession with a president. They can't just let it go.
CHUCK TODD:
Only five Senate Republicans voted against an effort to dismiss the trial. Among them: Nebraska's Ben Sasse - who is facing possible censure by his state party.
SEN. BEN SASSE:
You are welcome to censure me again, but let's be clear about why this is happening. It's because I still believe, as you used to, that politics isn't about the weird worship of one dude.
CHUCK TODD:
House impeachment managers will argue former President Trump "primed and prepared" his supporters for violence.
CHRIS WALLACE:
Can you give a direct answer, you will accept the election?
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I have to see.
REPORTER:
Will you commit to making sure there is a peaceful transferal of power after the election?
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Well, we're going to have to see what happens. Millions and millions of people voted for us tonight, and a very sad group of people is trying to disenfranchise that group of people, and we won't stand for it.
CHUCK TODD:
Then, they'll say he "whipped the crowd into a frenzy."
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore.
CHUCK TODD:
Mr. Trump's lawyers will argue that a trial to remove a former president is unconstitutional, and he was protected by the First Amendment to "express his belief that the election results were suspect."
DAVID SCHOEN:
There simply is no jurisdiction. This country needs to move on.
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is Senator Bill Cassidy of Louisiana. He's one of 10 Republican senators who was at the White House this week that offered a smaller, counter proposal on Covid relief to President Biden this week. Senator Cassidy, welcome back to Meet the Press. And I want to get to the Covid relief negotiations in a second. But let's start with what is going to be the dominant story in your life next week, and that is this impeachment trial. You have said you have an open mind, you're going to be listening with an open mind. You also voted with 44 of your colleagues that some people believe was, was an attempt to dismiss this trial on Constitutional grounds. How should -- how should the public interpret your vote, that vote? If you believe it's unconstitutional, how are you still open-minded on conviction?
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
I think it's important to understand the nature of that vote. It was called two hours before it. There was no debate and no explanation from either side. It was a vote in a moment of time. And so, based upon what senators knew at that point and felt at that point, they then voted. But we will now have, hopefully, presentations from both sides, and we will consider the evidence as impartial jurors.
CHUCK TODD:
You have, you called -- right after the insurrection, you called it sedition, on the part of the people that broke into the Capitol and did what they did. What do you view as the former president's role in it?
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
We'll find that out. If you will, you're begging me to come to a conclusion before the role, before the hearing. I will listen to both sides and be objective. So, Chuck, I'm sorry, but everybody wants you to commit to how you're going to vote --
CHUCK TODD:
No, I understand.
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
-- before you actually have the hearing. And so, I've been trying to studiously avoid doing so.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, let me ask it this way. Plenty of people interpreted that vote as saying, "Oh, there’s -- look, everybody knows what the outcome of this, of this process is going to be." Do you?
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
Do I what?
CHUCK TODD:
Know the outcome? Do you think the outcome is predetermined here?
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
Do I interpret --
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
Oh. You know, everybody -- no, I don't. I think it depends upon that which is presented. Let's face, let’s face it. The House did an incredibly poor job of building a case before their impeachment vote. The president wasn't there. He wasn't allowed counsel. They didn't amass evidence. In five hours, they kind of judged and boom, he's impeached. Now, I'm told that under the Watergate, under the Clinton impeachments, there were truckloads of information. Here, there was a video. There was no process. I mean, it's almost like, you know, if it happened in the Soviet Union, you would've called it a show trial. So, I’m hoping -- one, I'm sorry that that's the way the process went down because process is important when it comes to justice. And there was no defensible process there. But hopefully, they'll build a case and bring it to us. But again, process is important. And we have to see that process played out. And the president should have his counsel. That's just the way our system works.
CHUCK TODD:
I'm curious what you think is going on inside the Republican Party. Do you feel as if the state parties that have done some censuring of people like Liz Cheney, the governor of Arizona Doug Ducey, do you view these as sort of, they hang over the head of every one of you guys? And that if you somehow don't look pro-Trump enough, this could fall on you? What do you view these censure threats as?
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
There are censure threats, but they will not determine the outcome of the next election. Our party right now is, if you will, being tried by fire. We win if we have policies that speak to that family sitting around the table, who right now see their jobs on the Keystone XL pipeline being cancelled by the left -- not because it lowers global greenhouse gas emissions, those will go up, but because it's become symbolism and they’re cannon fodder on the war of climate change. If we speak to them in a way which addresses their concerns -- by the way, which also lowers global greenhouse gas emissions -- we win the next election. And that's where our focus should be, doing something good for the American people, and as a rule, good policy is good politics.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me move to Covid relief. You guys came in there with 10 Republicans, the bare number you need in order to avoid, you know, avoid a filibuster. If you're Joe Biden and you come in here, should, why should he meet you guys more than halfway? Is it incumbent on you to meet the Democrats more than halfway, in fairness, considering the Democrats control the Senate and they won the election?
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
First, let's say that we all made it clear that we are willing to negotiate. That wasn't our end point, it was where we felt that, if you put things together, added them up, it was a sum which met the American people's needs. And why could President Biden believe it? He could believe it because when there was a Republican president and Republicans controlled the Senate, we passed five different Covid relief packages on a bipartisan basis with overwhelming margins. We had shown that we would negotiate and come to answers. He should also do it because maybe it happens to be the right policy. Maybe his policy might be counterproductive. I'm a doctor. I can tell you, sometimes a cure is worse than a disease. And if you read Larry Summers' editorial in The Washington Post this past week, it may be that this $1.9 trillion will make things worse, and I think that has to be a concern.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you this. Do you think we went too small in '09 or too big in '09 with the stimulus?
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
I think we got it Goldilocks, just right. The Congressional Budget Office is saying that because of the $900 billion that was on a bipartisan basis negotiated, there'll be 3.8% GDP growth in 2021. Now, when you have 3.8% GDP growth, which is, like, more than we've had for quite some time, coming out of a pandemic, you've done something right. And so, I actually think that we got it pretty good.
CHUCK TODD:
Your proposal by the way -- you were one of the senators that has been fighting hard to get aid to state and local governments, one of the few Republicans that have joined some Democrats. This counter-proposal of yours did not include state aid, and you have said, look, it is hard for you to get -- my guess is you couldn't get 10 Republicans to join you, if you did. If that is the issue, how, how do you come to a bill where you know you have the Democrats on the side of state and local aid here?
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
You've got to look at facts. Now, the reason I said it would be difficult is that some states have done better in 2020 than they did in 2019. California has had record tax revenue. Now, my state's been hurt. Let's just say it. But New York, for all of their complaining, Governor Cuomo's complaining, has only had a 1.5% decrease in revenue. New Jersey, 0.5%. And nationwide, I think it's, like, 0.1% revenue decline, nationwide. Now, it's hard to build political consensus when there's only 0.1% revenue decline. If good policy is good politics, then maybe bad policy is bad politics. And if we're going to throw $350 billion at states when New York has had record increased revenue, some folks are going to scratch their head and say, "That's not justified. Let's think of a different way to do it."
CHUCK TODD:
Are you still willing to work with the Biden White House, if, if this deal ends up being on a party-line vote? Will this make it harder for you to work with them? Or, you know what, you'll be there for the next one?
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
You actually have two different questions in that. I am absolutely willing to work with anyone if it’s good for the American people. Because that's what we should all be about. We have conservative solutions. The more conservative values infuse public policy, I think, the better public policy is. On the other hand, the administration is showing very clearly they don't care if they have to work with us. They're willing to push things through even if someone like Larry Summers, a former Democratic treasury secretary, says it's boneheaded policy -- I'm paraphrasing. And even if we come in good faith with at least 10 and more that would have joined us, and they say they don't care. So, you got that -- it takes two to tango. Right now, I'm not sure we have the two to tango.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, I think that has been a challenge for this town for more than a decade, in fairness. Anyway, Senator Cassidy, Republican from Louisiana. Appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us, sir. Thank you.
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
Thank you, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is Congressman Adam Schiff of California. He's the chair of the House Intelligence Committee. And he, of course, was the lead manager for the Democrats for the last impeachment. Congressman Schiff, welcome back to Meet the Press. I don't think any of us thought that your experience a year ago would be so relevant. Here we are, a year later, and we're entering a second impeachment. Let me ask about the preparation for this one. Your -- the impeachment you led was a very document-driven, it was in some ways witness driven. You had to -- you were putting together a narrative that not everybody could see in real-time. This is one where the narrative, everybody sees in real time. On one hand, I assume that's an asset to these impeachment managers. But what do you think is their biggest challenge?
REP. ADAM SCHIFF:
Well, I think that the managers recognize what we did a year ago, which is we may think that all the senators and the American people know all the facts, but in fact, when you look at the whole chronology of what the president did in the weeks and months leading up to January 6th, his efforts to reject the outcome if he lost, his lies about the election before the election, during the election, after the election, his efforts to intervene with local elected officials, the secretary of state in Georgia, indeed the Justice Department to get him to help overturn the election results. Many Americans, and indeed many senators, may not be familiar with all of those facts that led up to that incitement of that mob. So you can't presume that either the Senate or the country are aware of all the facts. You really need to present that full picture. And I'm confident that they will.
CHUCK TODD:
Respond to Senator Cassidy's critique there that he said it was rushed, this impeachment was rushed. And we're hearing this from quite a few, I think, Republican senators who I think are more open-minded about this than, than some folks think. But what would you -- how would you respond to his critique of the process?
REP. ADAM SCHIFF:
Well, a couple things. First of all, they said that the last impeachment, in which we had months of depositions and hearings, was also rushed. So they're going to make that process argument regardless. But here, there was a real sense of urgency because the president had just incited a mob that attacked the Capitol and killed, resulted in the deaths of five people. And we felt in the House, as well as ten of the Republicans, that every day he remained in office he was a danger to the country and we simply couldn’t -- you know, we couldn't, you know, sit still and wait for weeks or months while this man posed a danger to the country. So we did act with alacrity. But the president will have every opportunity to put on a defense during the trial. The impeachment is like an indictment. The president was already given the opportunity to testify in the trial and has rejected that. So they'll put on a full defense. And I'm glad to hear Senator Cassidy say that he has an open mind, which indeed, all of the senators should. And I think that's encouraging.
CHUCK TODD:
Did you think you had a chance at winning 17 Republicans over the last time? I think you needed more than that actually the last time because of what the Senate makeup was. Did you go into that impeachment trial, despite all the numbers, despite all the polling showed, right, the punditry class didn't think there was much of a chance. Did you think you had a chance at winning that, winning a conviction?
REP. ADAM SCHIFF:
We thought we had a chance. We recognized it was very uphill. We also recognized that it was our Constitutional duty to impeach a president who had so clearly violated the Constitution. And to make the case to the American people, even if we couldn't make the case successfully to these Republican senators. And one of the reasons why we thought we might, nonetheless, succeed is if we could get witnesses. If the country could hear from someone like John Bolton, who was in the room, that might lead to more witnesses. And that might lead to changed minds.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
REP. ADAM SCHIFF:
And, of course, that was precisely the fear that Mitch McConnell had and why he wouldn't allow it. So yes, we realized we had a chance, but it was very uphill.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
REP. ADAM SCHIFF:
But nonetheless, we needed to make the case to the American people.
CHUCK TODD:
What do you make of the idea of witnesses this time? I know some Democrats are talking about it but, you know, you have some Democratic senators who are just as anxious, including a former senator who's now president, just as anxious to see this impeachment trial go away. Do you think witnesses don't get called because of that?
REP. ADAM SCHIFF:
Well, I think, you know, and what we wanted in the last trial was let the House, let the Prosecution put on its own case. Let it decide whether to call witnesses, what witnesses to call. That's what should be allowed in this trial. It'll be up to Jamie Raskin, an extraordinarily capable, brilliant Constitutional scholar, to make those decisions with the team. But in a very real way, Chuck, we have the unusual circumstance where, on the very first day of the trial, when those managers walk on the floor of the Senate, there will already be over 100 witnesses present. And those will be the House and Senate members.
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
REP. ADAM SCHIFF:
Whether you need additional witnesses will be a strategic call for the House managers.
CHUCK TODD:
Before I let you go, I would like you to respond to Kevin McCarthy on the Marjorie Taylor Greene vote. Here's what he said on the floor of the House this week. Take a listen.
[BEGIN TAPE]
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY:
If people are held to what they have said prior to even being in this House, if majority party gets to decide who sits on what other committees, I hope you keep that standard because we have a long list you can work within your own.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
You worried about the precedent that has been set here? I had a former aide to a Republican speaker say to me, "Democrats are going to -- if they start this precedent, my side will show no mercy the next time they have power."
REP. ADAM SCHIFF:
No. Look, Kevin McCarthy stands for nothing except the perpetuation of his own position. He has no values. And in my view, cares about little except for hoping to be speaker one day, God forbid. But look, if members of either party are threatening violence against other members of the party, of the body and suggesting they be executed. If they are casting doubt on 9/11 or school shootings, if they're heckling victims of crime, like Marjorie Taylor Greene did with the victim of the Parkland shooting. If they're suggesting that a religious group is shooting laser beams to start forest fires, they should be expelled from their committees, whatever party they are in. They shouldn't, frankly, even be in the Congress.
CHUCK TODD:
You're not worried about the precedent?
REP. ADAM SCHIFF:
No. As long as we hold the same standard. You have members that are threatening to execute each other, they should be removed from --
CHUCK TODD:
That should --
REP. ADAM SCHIFF:
-- their committees.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah, that is a -- seems like a reasonable standard. Adam Schiff, Democrat from Southern California, chair of the Intelligence Committee. And you're rumored to potentially have a new job. We'll find out in the coming days whether that happens or not. Congressman, thanks very much.
REP. ADAM SCHIFF:
Thanks, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, there's good news on the Covid front. But how long will it last? Dr. Anthony Fauci joins me next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Finally, there's some good news on the COVID front. Even though new cases are still at an appallingly high level, in the past seven days, new cases were reported at their lowest rate since early November. The fear, of course, is that the new, more transmissible Covid variants could well cause yet another spike in cases in just a few weeks. And there are very real questions about when schools should and can open. So try to dive into all of these. Joining me now is a man who every viewer knows very well at this point, Dr. Anthony Fauci. He's the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. Dr. Fauci, welcome back to Meet the Press. Vaccines --
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
-- and schools. Let me start with vaccines. What is the biggest roadblock in the manufacturing process here of these vaccines, in getting vaccines quicker? The distribution problems we are having, I have a feeling, would seem small if we had more supply. What holds us up in having more supply?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well, it's just that. The demand clearly outstrips the supply right now. If you look at the escalation of availability of doses purely on the ability and the capability of manufacturing that, it's going to escalate and will continue to escalate as we go from February, to March, to April and beyond. So even though there's a clear, clear discrepancy between the demand and the supply, that will get better as we get through February and into March. But that is the limiting factor, Chuck. It's the supply, demand issue.
CHUCK TODD:
Is this because -- is there any way this moment could've been prevented? Six months ago, should we have expanded manufacturing capacity and we didn't? Is that why we're here, or was this inevitable?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
You know, in some respects, Chuck, with all due respect and fairness, it's a bit inevitable. We certainly, I guess could've contracted a little bit more aggressively with the companies to get more doses. But right now, this is what we have. These are the contractual arrangements. They're coming off the line as quickly as we can. And, as I mentioned, not only will there be more Moderna and Pfizer doses as we get through March and April, but then we're going to be getting J&J or Janssen online. You heard last week about the favorable results. And that's a single dose vaccine.
CHUCK TODD:
Right --
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
So things will continue to get better.
CHUCK TODD:
Over the next couple of weeks, a lot of folks who have gotten first doses are scheduled to get their second dose. I know you're aware of Dr. Michael Osterholm, who was on last week, and he's an advocate of at least studying this issue of delaying the second dose. We're in a race with these variants, and getting more people obviously with this vaccination is something a lot of people think would be helpful. Where are you on this? And are we in the middle of studying whether this is a viable option?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well, you know, one of the things -- I mean, I understand. I mean, Michael and I have spoken about this a fair amount, as recently as yesterday. One of the problems, Chuck, is that if you want to really study it to see that, the amount of time that it will take, the amount of people you would have to put into the study, by that time, we will already be in the arena of having enough vaccines to go around anyway. So from a theoretical standpoint, it would be nice to know, if you just give one dose, how long the durability lasts and what is the level of effect. But what we have right now, and what we must go with, is the scientific data that we've accumulated. And it's really very solid. We know that, with each of these, it's either 21 days or 28 days. You can do both. You can get as many people in their first dose at the same time as adhering within reason to the timetable of the second dose. So it would be great to have the study. But I don't think we could do it in time, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
And there's not enough data that's out there now with maybe folks that haven't gotten a second dose, but basically, we've created a trial group by accident? There's not enough -- not enough -- data out there?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
No, Chuck, it doesn't work that way. The N of people, the number of people that have essentially missed that second dose to determine if they are as protected as we showed in the trial, which was 94-95% --
CHUCK TODD:
Right --
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI
-- protection when you get it after the second dose, there're not enough people and there's not enough time. It's a reasonable idea.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI
I'm not putting the idea down. But it's very impractical to do. It really is.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, Fairfax County Public Schools calls you up today and says, tell us, you know, "Can we open up?" What would you say? And if not, how would you tell them to open up?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well, that's a simple question, but with a complicated answer because it really depends on the level of infection in the community. The one principle we stand by, and President Biden has said that, we want to get the schools K-8 open within the next 100 days, all of them. You want to be the first to open, the last to close. What they need is they're going to need some help. And that's why we want the American Rescue Plan -- the American Rescue Act, to get through, so that the schools can have the capability with masks, with the ability to get better ventilation. All the things you want to do. Of course, vaccination helps, Chuck. It would be great to get all the teachers vaccinated as quickly as you possibly can. That's the reason why they're in the group that is the necessary components of society, namely essential workers.
CHUCK TODD:
You set K-8 as the line here. There’s been -- is there more confidence on the elementary school level of the safety, versus middle and high school, and that's why we sort of draw a line at eighth grade here?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well, yeah. It's data -- you know, it isn't overwhelming, but it's strongly suggestive. There have been a number of studies to show that, when you have children that are a certain age, namely above eight -- eighth grade and higher, that they transmit as easily as adults transmit. Whereas younger children, even though they have virus in their nasopharynx when they get infected, they do not transmit as readily. So for that reason, you want to focus on that group, the K-8 group. But there are some data that suggest that.
CHUCK TODD:
And finally, let me come back to vaccines and less about the manufacturing and more about the distribution process itself. I'm going to read for you a quote from Anne Applebaum in The Atlantic. "The people who are getting the vaccine first are the ones in the right health care or hospital groups, the ones who can spend the day clicking links, the ones who are really fast at filling out forms. Anyone without a computer or an internet connection is in big trouble. The result is no more fair or logical than an old-fashioned, Moscow queue for cabbage." And Dr. Fauci, my own mother goes to Publix every day to try to figure out how to get into a line, and she can't seem to get one in her state of Florida. It is this weird survival of the fittest. It feels a little Darwinistic.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well, that's a little bit more dramatically said than I would say it, but there is a kernel of truth, more than just a kernel to that. And there are ways to get around that, Chuck. First of all, the president's plan, the strategic plan, calls for a following. The development and the -- they're lining up and putting into effect community vaccine centers, number one. Getting vaccine to the pharmacies, number two. Getting mobile units to get out into the community to get it to people who, as Anne Applebaum said, have trouble negotiating a computer or getting things online.
That's really very important. The other thing that's important is that we now have an equity -- equity -- task force that is looking specifically at what I think you're referring to. Namely, people who, because of a variety of reasons, economic status, where they live, who they are, which have difficulty getting accessibility to vaccines. We are aware of that. And that's the reason why the task force is working hard to eliminate that inequity.
CHUCK TODD:
When should our patience run out? In a month, two months, do you know what I mean? When should we come back to you and say, "Hey, you know, when are we going to get this fixed"?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well, Chuck, I can't give you a date. You could always come back to me and put my feet to the fire. I'm not afraid of that. But I can tell you that things are going to get better as we get from February into March, into April because the number of vaccine doses that will be available will increase substantially, in addition to other candidates like the J&J which will be coming online pretty soon, I believe.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. Dr. Anthony Fauci, a man who these days does -- needs no introduction, that's for sure. Appreciate you coming on and sharing your expertise with our viewers. Thank you.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Thank you very much, Chuck. Thanks for having me.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, is the post-Trump Republican Party really post-Trump, or is it still his party? Panel is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back, the panel is with us. Anna Palmer, founder of the new Punchbowl News; former RNC chairman Michael Steele; Maria Teresa Kumar, president of Voto Latino; and David French, a senior editor of The Dispatch. Alright, I'm going to let you guys decide these buckets of Republicans and where you would put them in the party, but let me do the 211, we have all 211 House Republicans on screen here, and I want people to be able to visualize the different buckets of Republicans. These are the 139 that voted to overturn the election. The next group here is the 18 Republicans who voted either to impeach President Trump or remove Greene from committees. And then, finally, our third group here is the 56 Republicans who did not vote for impeachment or remove Greene, but also opposed overturning the election. So, Anna Palmer, there's your groups. The 139, the 56 and the 18. What do you make of this divide in the Republican party, and how should we best understand it?
ANNA PALMER:
I think the most important thing to understand is Donald Trump still controls the vast majority of House Republicans. Many of them were elected on his coattails. While there are a few that chose not to -- or to support impeachment, a few that supported to remove Marjorie Taylor Greene, the vast majority, the leadership, Kevin McCarthy, are still Donald Trump Republicans, and that informs the entire thinking of where the Republican conference is going to go from here forward.
CHUCK TODD:
David French, you work at a news organization that basically was created in the wake of, of trying to separate Trump from the conservative movement. How much work do you have to do?
DAVID FRENCH:
A lot of work, but I'm optimistic that it's not as much work as people might think. I mean, look, here's the bottom line, I think there's another bucket here, and the bucket is the people who, in a secret ballot, voted to keep Liz Cheney number three in the House. I think that's a very important number, and it's a number that's the large majority of the House GOP. What we have going on right now is a very interesting dynamic where there is a layer of activists in the GOP. You see them in some of the state GOPs that have put out some of these crazy and wild statements that are just divorced from reality. And when they-- what they demand from legislators isn't legislating, it's trolling. It's punching. It's fighting. But the bottom line is, right now Trump is silent. This is an -- this has been an underappreciated aspect of the recent story. For almost a month, he's been silent. He can't keep his hold on the Republican Party through silence. He skulked off to Mar-a-Lago, and now he's sort of coasting on that old momentum. That can't last forever.
CHUCK TODD:
Michael Steele, you know, he brought up the state parties. You know, you were chair in 2010. The 168 at the RNC, I don't, I don’t know how many of the folks that helped elect you chair of the party are still even there. How much does, do we all underestimate the control Trump has from that ground level?
MICHAEL STEELE:
See, that's the critical piece. We tend to look at these things from a typical federal perspective, meaning nationally. We tend to look nationally. One of the things I emphasized as national chairman, because I was a county chairman as well as a state chairman, was that the action is on the ground. And you have to appreciate that while, yes, Trump is silent, and the fact that, you know, you have, you know, these bifurcated, trifurcated votes in the House, on the ground, state parties are censuring members. On the ground, state parties are more and more controlled by Trump and Trumpism. So, that's where the battle lines are going to be drawn. You know, you know, say what you want about Marjorie Taylor Greene and the craziness that comes out of her mouth. She did speak a very profound truth. This is the Trump party. This is his.
CHUCK:
Yeah.
MICHAEL STEELE: And it is his for as long as, yeah, he can hold it, but also for as long as those folks are behind him. And right now, there’s -- tell me where the break is. You show us all on the board all these different votes by members, but at the end of the day, where do you see a release by Trump on the hold of the party, and where do you see the party moving away from him? That has not happened, and that's a critical piece of this because that's on the ground.
CHUCK TODD:
Maria Teresa, the more the party, the elected Republicans publicly side with the Trump wing of the party, does that all give Democrats, in your mind, a pass from not working across the aisle with those members?
MARIA TERESA KUMAR:
Well, I think it's not only does, it’s not that it gives it a pass, I think that, you know, you had Senator Cassidy on earlier and he was talking about how the Republicans were going to talk about bread and butter issues and about policy, and that's how he was going to sway more of these people back into the Republican camp. And quite frankly, the Republican Party right now is actually in the midst of a cultural war. And if we can’t-- if they can't agree on what basic facts are, and they're peddling conspiracy theories within their own party, that is where their challenge is. And that's where it gives an opportunity for the Democrats to actually talk about saying, “We can not only just run through the map, but we can actually maybe get back some of these Congressional seats. Not everywhere, but of the 139 individuals that you said voted for -- against impeachment, excuse me, against the election, of those, 36 of them come from swing purple states. They come from Georgia, they come from Arizona, they come from Texas, they come from North Carolina. All those four states alone have an increasing, vast, different demographic that's rising. So, that fever is going to have to figure how to break. Is it going to be through the Republican party, or is it going to be through demographics?
CHUCK TODD:
Anna Palmer, I don’t know if you -- I'm sure you caught what Adam Schiff said about Kevin McCarthy, and it struck a bunch of us, like, it was just startling, right? I'm, I was numb to the personal insults these days that take place, but describe the level of toxicity on Capitol Hill right now, or are we, or are you out of adjectives like I am?
ANNA PALMER:
I really think there is a pre-January 6th and a post-January 6th. And what Congressman Schiff was articulating is the frustration and just distrust of Republicans by Democrats right now. And it's, it’s member against member. It's party against party. It's members against members of the police force. And there is -- you just can't underscore how that is really being a determinative factor when it comes to how people are leading it. I think that Democrats are very frustrated with what Kevin McCarthy did with Marjorie Taylor Greene and defending her when they felt like this was a real true vote of conscience.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, especially when you had the Steve King standard just two years earlier. I think that that is something that I feel like has gotten a bit forgotten and why they didn't have that same standard, anyway. I'm going to pause the conversation here. When we come back, voters vote with their feet, even after elections, and many of them are now walking out of the Republican Party. Wait ‘til you see this. That's next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Data Download time. In the weeks since the January insurrection at the Capitol, there has been a raft of stories about voters across the country leaving the Republican Party and that's led to questions about whether the party itself is shrinking nationally. Look, we don't know that for sure, but we do have a sense in a few battleground states. Let's just take a look. Just in January, close to 8,000 Republicans in North Carolina left the party. In Arizona, 9,000 left the party. And check this out, more than 12,000 Republicans in Pennsylvania, all in only a month, have left the party. But it's more than just January 6th. This trend has been a long time in the making and it is part of a bigger political realignment that we've been talking about right here on Data Download for quite some time. We took some data from our NBC News poll from 2010 and 2020 to look at the profiles of the two major parties over that decade time period. And we found some big shifts in education and gender. And it's not going to surprise you, but let's start with education. Since 2010, you'll see this not being a surprise, the percentage of self-identified Democrats without a college degree has declined by seven points, while the percentage of those with a college degree has grown by six points. On the other side of the aisle, it's essentially a story in reverse. The percentage without education beyond high school has climbed by seven points despite the fact that there are fewer of those actual voters in total now than there were in 2010. And the percentage with at least a college degree among Republicans has declined by five points. And we see changes in the gender gap as well. Democrats have long been a party where women outnumber men. But the difference has grown. Check this out. In the last decade, self-identified Democrats have gone from 58% female, 42% male in 2010 -- double-digit difference -- to look at this, 61% of the party is now female and only 39% is male in 2020. And self-identified Republicans, which were once evenly split between the two genders in 2010, they've become decidedly more male. In fact, in 2020, the self-identified Republicans were 46% female versus 54% male. And remember, there are more women than men overall. So, together, all these shifts mean Republicans are facing a challenge. The more the party becomes the party of Trump, the more it draws from a shrinking population of people without a college degree and men instead of women. In other words, it's grabbing a larger share of a smaller pie. When we come back, when can we get kids back to school? And are we going to see teachers unions and Democrats start to clash? That's next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Maria Teresa, Joe Biden, is he going it alone? Was it a choice essentially between going big or going bipartisan? Is that why Democrats are so-called going it alone? Is that the fairest way to look at this? Oh.
MARIA TERESA KUMAR:
One thing --
CHUCK TODD:
It’s ok.
MARIA TERESA KUMAR:
After so many Zoom calls, you'd realize I'd figure out the mute button, Chuck. So, one of the things that I believe that Joe Biden has figured out and he's absolutely clear-eyed is that he has a limited time to put points on the board. He has to get the economy back on track. He has to fix Covid. And he's going to have to figure out how to provide a pathway where people see hope in the future through policy. He also recognizes that by doing so he probably has to make sure that he has at least the 50 votes from the senators. And that's one of the reasons why you saw in this, in this recovery bill that the minimum wage is not included --
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
MARIA TERESA KUMAR:
-- because he recognizes he needs at least 50. The Republicans are going to say that this package is way too big, but I need to remind the American people, and I think we could all agree, this is not the 2008 stimulus package. This is a disaster relief bill. And by looking at it through that lens, you have to figure out not only how do you recover immediately, but how do you actually make sure that we're putting things in place so that the American people could go back to work and get the economy running right away. It's very different.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Michael Steele, bipartisanship works when there is a benefit for the people making the bipartisan deal. It's hard to find political benefit for either party working that much with the other side.
MICHAEL STEELE:
Well, yes. And to Maria's last point, because of the nature of what's required right now, you would think that that would take the blinders off for the political operatives on both sides and they would see that the nation's needs right now have to be met. But it really speaks to something that David and others have been writing and talking about over the last few months and certainly what Anna put her finger on in terms of the level of poison in the system right now. Chuck, we can't get past our own obstacles that we placed to heal people, to help them. So, that, I think, is going to be the challenge of a Biden administration. You know, the conversation around unity has a specific purpose to it. It is to help us try to get over some of those hurdles. But when you have Republicans in the House or Senate and Democrats in the House or Senate sort of taking these hardened corners and edges, the American people continue to suffer under that particular weight. And that's going to be the challenge for this administration, certainly not just the first 100 days, but I think for the first 18 months.
CHUCK TODD:
David French, I actually want to shift gears here, but actually stay on the topic of bipartisanship. I want to play for you a mash of Democrats essentially calling for schools to open, taking some direct shots at teachers unions. Take a listen.
[BEGIN TAPE]
GOV. RALPH NORTHAM:
Children learn better in classrooms. And that's where they need to be.
MAYOR LORI LIGHTFOOT:
After over 80 sessions with the Chicago Teachers Union, I think it is critically important that we not lose sight of a few important points. First is that our schools are safe.
GOV. ROY COOPER:
It's time to get our children back into the classroom.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
You know, David, I wonder if there's more to be, to look bipartisan if Democrats sort of take that issue on than whether they find ten Republicans in the Senate. What are your thoughts on that?
DAVID FRENCH:
Not only is it more important, is there more bipartisan room on reopening schools, I think it's more important as a matter of public policy to reopen schools. It's more important in a matter of impacting real people's lives to reopen schools. You know, teachers unions represent teachers. Their interest is teachers. But politicians are representing the public. They're looking at schools, they're looking at parents, they're looking at public health. And the Democratic Party cannot be beholden, even as important as a political constituency as teachers unions are, I think there is an enormous bipartisan surge for, in desire to reopen schools, rightly so. Kids are falling behind. Kids are suffering. And the best available data that we have right now says it can be done safely. So, if you want a bipartisan, blue ocean here, sail towards reopening schools.
CHUCK TODD:
Anna Palmer, are you seeing Democrats -- I mean, Democrats have been hesitant to be that critical of teachers unions. Are you about to see a sea change?
ANNA PALMER:
I think what you're starting to see is it on the ground, right? You just had mayors, governors, which are really, kind of, will be the engine to start this momentum, but I think there certainly is concern among Democrats and Republicans frankly about what's happening with schools, some of the suicide rates, families that need it in terms of social services. So, the pressure is just going to increase.
CHUCK TODD:
A terrific panel. You guys are a great quartet, one we will see again real soon. That's all for today though. Thank you for watching. Enjoy the game with your immediate family. Please don't make this a super spreader event. We'll be back next week though because, if it's Sunday, it's Meet The Press.