CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday: up in the air. U.S. fighter jets shoot down a Chinese spy balloon flying in U.S. airspace.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I told them to shoot it down.
CHUCK TODD:
The incident forced the Secretary of State to postpone a high-stakes trip to Beijing and exposed rising tensions and growing distrust between the two superpowers.
SEN. JOHN CORNYN:
We are not ready if China decides to invade Taiwan, and we need to get ready.
CHUCK TODD:
I'll speak with the Chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Republican Congressman Mike Turner of Ohio. Plus: a call to action.
ROWVAUGHN WELLS:
I really, truly believe my son was sent here on an assignment from God.
CHUCK TODD:
In the wake of the deadly police beating of Tyre Nichols, will Congress act on renewed calls for national police reform?
VICE PRES. KAMALA HARRIS:
We demand that Congress pass the George Floyd Justice and Policing Act.
CHUCK TODD:
I'll talk with Democratic Senator Cory Booker of New Jersey who has led past efforts to get bipartisan legislation. And: disconnect. President Biden cheers good economic news and the lowest unemployment rate in over 50 years.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
The Biden economic plan is working.
CHUCK TODD:
But can the president run in 2024 on his economic record if voters don't feel the same way? Transportation Secretary Pete Butigieg joins me this morning ahead of the President's State of the Union speech this week. Joining me for insight and analysis are: NBC News Chief Washington Correspondent Andrea Mitchell; Amy Walter, editor-in-chief of the Cook Political Report; Democratic pollster Cornell Belcher and Lanhee Chen, a fellow at the Hoover Institution. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning. A Chinese spy balloon has set off a diplomatic crisis, deepening mistrust between the United States and China, and triggering political finger-pointing here at home before being shot down on Saturday. The U.S. military first detected the balloon over Alaska's Aleutian Islands last Saturday. It was spotted by civilians on Wednesday over Billings, Montana. Montana, by the way, is also home to Malmstrom Air Force Base, which houses 150 intercontinental ballistic missile silos. There were sightings of this balloon over Missouri and Kansas on Friday, and of course over the Carolinas on Saturday. The FAA had to close airspace and pause flights at three airports, in order to allow the F-22 fighter jet to shoot down this balloon six miles off the Carolina coast with a single air-to-air missile. Their dramatic takedown at 2:39 p.m. Saturday was caught on camera. China's foreign ministry declared its “strong discontent and protest,” calling it an overreaction, saying it “retains the right to respond further.” China had claimed the balloon was simply a civilian airship that was being used mainly for weather observation. But the administration responded that the surveillance balloon was used by China to monitor sensitive military sites, and that it also contained surveillance equipment. On Friday, the Secretary of State, Antony Blinken, had to cancel his first official visit to China. He was set to arrive in Beijing last night.
[START TAPE]
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
The presence of this surveillance balloon over the United States, in our skies, is a clear violation of our sovereignty, a clear violation of international law and clearly unacceptable. I can only imagine what the reaction would be in China if they were on the other end.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Now, before the balloon was taken down Saturday, Republicans on Capitol Hill were lashing out at President Biden for not acting sooner.
[START TAPE]
REP. MIKE GALLAGHER:
I don't think the Chinese Communist Party would hesitate to shoot down an American asset that was in their airspace.
SEN. JERRY MORAN:
This administration is keeping us in the dark and then claiming that they're doing what they're supposed to do.
SEN. STEVE DAINES:
They could have shot that balloon down, and the biggest risk might have been hitting a cow, a prairie dog or an antelope.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
After the balloon was shot down, Republicans praised the military for taking it down, but criticized President Biden for waiting too long. The back-and-forth over the spy balloon is just the latest escalation of U.S.-China tensions, as China has been trying to rehabilitate its global image post-Covid. Just in the last two weeks, an American general sent a memo predicting the U.S. will be at war with China in two years over Taiwan, and the Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin was in the Philippines on Thursday to announce a new military buildup and new uses of bases there by our military. China has tried to play both sides of Russia's assault on Ukraine, saying it is opposed to the war, but has been shipping Russia some military technology despite sanctions and despite denials that they're doing it. Meanwhile, Biden has doubled down on the Trump administration's policy of having a more aggressive competition, economically, with China. All of this, an acknowledgment that the decades that multiple presidential administrations bet on, that economic engagement with China would somehow push the country into democratic reforms, has been a complete failure. The President addressed the takedown in the balloon on his way to Camp David Saturday.
[START TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
On Wednesday, when I was briefed on the balloon, I ordered the Pentagon to shoot it down on Wednesday as soon as possible. They decided -- without doing damage to anyone on the ground -- they decided that the best time to do that was when it got over water outside -- within our, within a 12 mile limit. They successfully took it down, and I want to compliment our aviators who did it.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Joining me now is the Republican Chair of the House Intel Committee, Mike Turner of Ohio. Chairman Turner, welcome back to Meet the Press.
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Good morning, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. Let me start with what you know here. So the decision to take this down – what more have you learned? And you're part of the so-called Gang of Eight. I don't think you guys have gotten a personal briefing, but I know staff has. What more can you tell us about the take-down operation?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Yeah. Well, clearly the president taking it down over the Atlantic is sort of like the quarterback—sort of like tackling the quarterback after the game is over. The satellite had completed its mission. This should never have been allowed to enter the United States, and it never should've been allowed to complete its mission. If you ask somebody to draw an X at every place where our sensitive missile defense sites, our nuclear weapons infrastructure, our nuclear weapon sites are, you would put them all along this path. Clearly, this was an attempt by China to gather information, to defeat our command and control of our sensitive missile defense and nuclear weapon sites. And that certainly is an urgency that this administration does not recognize.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think we should have a policy that just anything that enters our airspace that's a balloon from China gets shot down immediately?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Well, first off, you have to understand this administration didn't just fail here; they failed to prepare after the first time this happened during this administration. The administration has already admitted, which I've been briefed on, that China has done this before in the continental United States during this president's tenure –
CHUCK TODD:
When did that happen?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
I – you have to let them release it; I can't release classified information, but they can tell you.
CHUCK TODD:
Were you also briefed on – there was apparently two or three incidents in the previous administration as well.
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Well, that's what they're saying now. But I think that the administration needs to come forward, because this is not an ability to say that this is a crisis that was handed to them. This is a crisis that has developed as a result of this president during his administration allowing China to do a similar act before, not responding and then clearly in this one, not seeing the urgency of what was unfolding. I mean, the president allowed this to go across our most sensitive sites, and wasn't even going to tell the American public. If you hadn't broken this story, the American public would not have even known. There was no attempt to notify Congress, no attempt to put together the Gang of Eight. I think this administration lacks urgency.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you – the Pentagon says that they were able to use some countermeasures that blocked or limited the ability of China to extract information from this balloon. Do you buy that?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
No. And certainly you don't either. Here's the thing that's interesting. The administration says there was nothing for them to gain here. This was quite a risk by China, quite a calculation that they would take a balloon, put it up in China, take it across the United States where it's clearly going to be discoverable by us. They clearly had some information that they were trying to garner, that they can't garner from space, so they did not have otherwise.
CHUCK TODD:
What could that be? Have you – I mean what – you're pretty familiar with this. What is it that they think they could have gotten from a balloon? Or what can be done with a balloon that can't be done with a satellite?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Well, the key obviously is not just the balloon. The key is the payload that was attached to it, which you've reported is, you know, the size of three buses. That's obviously huge. And it was being commanded and controlled by mainland China, and delivering data and information back to mainland China. Again, if you look at the path, and you put X's where all of our sensitive missile defense and nuclear weapons facilities are, I believe that they were trying to gain information on how to defeat the command and control of our nuclear weapon systems and our missile defense systems. That's a crisis. That certainly should've had an urgency to the president, and not just wait until this gets to the Atlantic to take it down.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you at all accept – I mean, it sounds like he did put the order in on Wednesday to shoot it down, and then it's the military that said, "Hey, it's not safe yet." Do you accept that?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Yeah, no. There's no excuses here. When this first occurred last time during this administration -- remember, this is the third year of this administration -- they should have been preparing for this. They knew what this was. They know what the balloon is, what its capabilities, maneuverability is, from having observed previous actions by China. They should have been prepared. They seemed not only to be unprepared, but to even be waiting. You know, where is the balloon going to go? What are they trying to do? That's not how you look at the actions of an adversary. China is a self-declared adversary. They are clearly expanding their military capabilities. They are tripling their nuclear weapons capabilities. They're fielding hypersonic weapons, they're expanding in space. In this instance, this president should've taken this as an urgency, and so should've our military. This should have been taken down before it entered the U.S. airspace, when it was over Alaska.
CHUCK TODD:
This, there's some sort of surveillance technology with this balloon. There's been some speculation that it might have the capability of launching its own drone – sort of miniature drones to do extra surveillance. Do you know anything about that, or has there been any reports to confirm any of that?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
No. I have not been briefed on that. But I can tell you — and we're supposed to be briefed this week as to what we know. But I think what we can believe is that this administration says, "We don't really know." And if we don't really know, how they keep telling the American public this is not a threat, that there was no need to act is just extraordinary to me. This administration does not understand the urgency of taking action to protect our national security –
CHUCK TODD:
What do you believe the actual threat is right now? What is it that they're trying to do? I mean, you see this as just a simple military exercise by the Chinese.
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Absolutely. I mean, they didn't go and look at the Grand Canyon; they went and looked at our nuclear weapon sites and the missile defense sites throughout the country. And whatever was in this humongous payload -- I mean, there wasn't a camera on this thing. I mean, I'm certain there were cameras, but at the same time, this was huge. The expanse that was there, and what they were trying to accomplish obviously was important enough to China to take the risk of something that was overt. This was not covert, this wasn't secret. They did it in such a grand scale. They knew that the United States would know, and they did it anyway.
CHUCK TODD:
So was it the right call for Secretary Blinken to postpone his trip?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Sure. But if you noticed – and I have a great deal of regard for Secretary Blinken – but if you notice, he didn't cancel it until it was already public, and there was public scrutiny of the fact that he was going.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, there’s some that argue that it shouldn't have been canceled, that this should be immediately they – we should be immediately confronting them. What do you make of that idea?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
What should've happened is the first time this happened during this administration, there should have been outrage. They should have addressed this with China. They should have prepared for when this balloon was coming. They should have understood that there was a great deal of risk at our national security. And they should have been prepared the moment this balloon was launched, because they knew what this was like, they knew what it was capable of, and they should have responded.
CHUCK TODD:
So what now should be the American response here? What would you like to see going forward in our, in response to this incursion?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Well I – first off, the president needs to shift and understand that he has urgent national security matters. You can't just act like nothing matters if it matters to our adversaries. If our adversaries think this is important, we need to thwart it and we need to respond. With respect to this balloon, obviously, you know, the administration's indicated they're going to try to collect whatever is left of having this strewn across the ocean to see what we can learn there. We're going to find what signals intelligence that the administration might have been able to capture, and from that, understand what this was doing. But they need to make clear to all our adversaries, “You're not going to get to come to the United States and take a tour of our most sensitive military sites and have a free shot.”
CHUCK TODD:
How aggressive should we be about these balloons that are in the Western Hemisphere, not over our airspace, but we know there’s reports that there's one of these balloons in Latin America right now?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Right. Well, I think all of these – if the administration had, when they became aware that China was deploying this capability, if they had been aggressive to determine how to capture them, how to exploit the technology, how to thwart the technology, we would be in a different place today. And I think, you know, the same is true for the other balloons that you're seeing.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, I’m going to – we're running out of time – but before I let you go, you and others in the Gang of Eight have asked for a briefing on all of the classified documents that have been discovered from President Trump, President Biden, and Vice President Pence. Where are we on that?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
You know, what's striking about this, Chuck, is that the Biden administration told the American public that they raided Donald Trump's home because it was a national security risk. But what we found in the intelligence community and in the intelligence committee is that the Biden administration had not engaged at all anyone who was in national security on the issue of threats from these documents. It took Congress to step in and say, "We want a security threat." And then they tried to deny giving the briefing to us from that threat. What's interesting is that the moment this balloon became public, I got a notice not from the administration that I'm going to get a briefing on this balloon, but they have to rush to Congress now to talk to us about Donald Trump's documents. You can see they want to change the news.
CHUCK TODD:
So you're going to get a briefing on Trump's documents, but –
REP. MIKE TURNER:
There's nothing scheduled on the balloon, but they're scheduling Donald Trump.
CHUCK TODD:
Anything on Biden or Pence?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
It's included, yes.
CHUCK TODD:
That will all be included. When is that, this week?
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Yes, it's supposed to be this week. We'll see whether or not the balloon happens first. It certainly should. Again, urgency. This administration needs to understand we do have national security urgent matters.
CHUCK TODD:
Mike Turner, Chair of the House Intel Committee, Republican from Ohio.
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
Thanks for coming in, sharing your perspective with us --
REP. MIKE TURNER:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
Appreciate it. And joining me now from the other side of the aisle, Democratic Senator Cory Booker of New Jersey. He's also a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Senator Booker, welcome back to Meet the Press. Obviously, there's another topic I would like to discuss with you in more detail. But I want to ask you about the reaction – your reaction to President Biden's decision on the balloon. How has he handled this? And should he have acted sooner?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Well, clearly there's a lot of information that still has to come out. But the president and the United States Military did what they did, that is, in my opinion, very just and very defensible. They saw that to blow that thing up or to take that thing down over land would cause challenges.
And we know from the debris field over the ocean that it was miles long. I think I heard seven miles long. And so the president himself said, "I ordered it to be taken down." The military made a thoughtful decision, and I trust the United States Military.
CHUCK TODD:
Would you have canceled that trip to Beijing like Secretary Blinken did? Was that the right call?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Well, I want to make one more point about this. I think what is – it's problematic for a Democrat or Republican to have one standard for one president, another standard for another president. We should remember that this is now known to have happened under the Trump administration multiple times. And so to create another standard for Biden when Trump, it seems, allowed this to go over the United States is just a bit hypocritical. We are in a position where we have a global contest going on. Chinese espionage, not just against potentially our country as a whole, but also companies, Chinese activities right now with Taiwan. This is a time we need to unite on both sides of the aisle, not engage in partisanship, but do some of the good works we have done in the last Congress, like the CHIPS Act, which is a national security bill that helped us to make sure that, should there be incursions against Taiwan, we're ready as a country. This is a time for us to unite and find strategies to counter Chinese espionage and their other ill activities around the globe.
CHUCK TODD:
How concerned are you about a retaliation from China? They seem to leave it out there in their statement.
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Again, we should be concerned about China as a whole. And the difference between us and China is that we are a democracy. And we have great alliances. And not just NATO, not just Canada and Mexico, but there are free countries all around this world that understand that China is a threat. They're not playing by the rules of the world order. America is the strongest nation on the planet Earth. But when it comes to us uniting with our allies to counter Chinese aggression, it is a power that is multiplied. It is really important to understand. I remember when President Trump put sanctions on China, he also used a national security waiver to put the same sanctions – to put similar sanctions on Canada. We don't need to be pushing our neighbors away. We need to be uniting in a front of democracies to create a more rational world order that has a lot more power in controlling Chinese aggression.
CHUCK TODD:
Do we need to have a posture in our military preparedness and in the Armed Services Committee? Are you going to be supporting whatever it takes to prepare for war with China over Taiwan? Do we need to do more to prepare for that potential, even if we are going to work our way – do everything we can to prevent that outcome?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
You know, again, I'm very aware that the United States Military prepares for a lot of eventualities. I'm also a believer that strong diplomacy can work to counter Chinese aggression. And so, again, this rush or a drumbeat to war is really problematic to me when there are a whole bunch of other options. And this is where I give a lot of confidence and strength to the Biden administration. You asked me the question about Blinken's trip. This is an administration, from its very beginning, has been reaching out across the aisle and finding good ways to counter and check China's aggressions, China's espionage, but also to look ways – to look at ways to strengthen ties with China that enable us to better keep them at the table. So, again, a balanced approach is necessary. But so is working in contingencies. I've traveled around the world, from India to Germany, and having really substantive conversations about how we strengthen our democratic alliances to counter aggression from dictators or totalitarian regimes from Russia, to North Korea, and indeed, also China.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me pivot to police reform. And I want to sort of get a realistic check from you about what's possible. Presidential campaigns start pretty quickly. Senator Tim Scott is somebody who may run for president. He has said the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act is a non-starter. So what's realistic this calendar year of what could get done, given national politics and where we are in America?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
You know, I think that there are a lot of folks across the aisle that understand that this is a moral moment. America is seeing more and more because of body cameras and other technology. We are seeing the horror of unarmed people, handcuffed people in the case of the tragic murder of Tyre Nichols. We're seeing things that do not comport with our national standards and expectations. And we are a nation right now that should set the global standard for professionalism policing, and we are falling short of that to the horror of more and more Americans. And so I know that this might not be a divided Congress. I'm very sobered about the reality to get a large comprehensive bill done. But I have been in conversations all week with people on both sides of the Capitol and both sides of the aisle, with police leaders, national police leaders, national police union leaders, as well as civil rights activists that all want to get something done that could advance the cause of not just police reform but raising standards, creating more transparency and more accountability. So I'm not giving up in this work. And I'm having constructive conversations with people on the other side of the aisle.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, you know, sometimes we let the perfect become the enemy of the good. You guys were close. You, Tim Scott, Karen Bass. There was an agreement on banning chokeholds except in life-threatening situations. There was an agreement to set federal standards for no-knock warrants. And there was an agreement to limit the transfer of some military equipment to local departments. Can we just pass that and then go back and try to see what's next? I mean, can we – are we in that situation where we can do this? You know, there were nine civil rights acts, right? You know, can we do this in iterations?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Yeah, it's exactly the way we approached the gun safety legislation on our side, led by Chris Murphy, and I was happy to be a part of that. And get substantive things into that bill like community violence intervention. It was not everything we wanted, like universal background checks or assault weapons ban. But it was a significant step forward. We are looking at this bill, or the potential to get legislation through, but it has to meet those standards of raising professional standards, transparency, more accountability. And again, we are working on things. I'm sobered about the belief that we can get a big comprehensive bill done. But can we get something done? I believe we can. I'm putting all my effort into that right now.
CHUCK TODD:
I mean, look, I take it the idea of dealing with qualified immunity is probably not something that happens with this round of police reform?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
You know, look, when you hear encouraging things, I've met with Lindsey Graham last week.
CHUCK TODD:
True.SEN. CORY BOOKER:
When you hear encouraging things from people like him, it gives me the sense that we could do something possibly in the Senate. But remember, passing a bill in the Senate, as we found out with immigration reform about 10 years ago, doesn't mean it will pass in the House. I want to get something to the president's desk that will make Americans safer, that will give more confidence in American policing and more transparency and accountability when things go wrong, or to stop things from going wrong. And that's the goal here. And we've got the Senate negotiations, and this is why I'm working in such strong partnership with the Congressional Black Caucus and other people in the House of Representatives to try to make sure we can get something all the way to the president's desk.
CHUCK TODD:
Senator Cory Booker, Democrat from New Jersey, really appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us. Thank you, sir.
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Thank you. Thank you very much.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, President Biden is feeling pretty confident about the economic recovery and says his critics are wrong. As he prepares to address the nation Tuesday night, can he convince a wary public about his economic program? Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg joins me next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. When President Biden addresses the nation on Tuesday night, he will be speaking to a skeptical public. Despite the low unemployment rate, a stronger than expected midterm performance for his political party, and a string of legislative accomplishments, the president's job rating sits at just 45%. His poll numbers are even lower on his handling of the economy, foreign policy and specifically the war in Ukraine. Two-thirds of voters have reservations or are very uncomfortable with the idea of Biden running for a second term. That's the backdrop for the State of The Union. Joining me now is the Secretary of Transportation, Pete Buttigieg. He is here representing the White House to preview the State of the Union address. Secretary Buttigieg, welcome back to Meet The Press.
SEC. PETE BUTTIGIEG:
Good to be with you.
CHUCK TODD:
But before I get to the State of The Union, your day job as Secretary of Transportation includes the FAA. You had to ground — the FAA had to ground flights in three airports in the Carolinas to assist this national security operation. What more have you learned about this operation? And did we recover everything?
SEC. PETE BUTTIGIEG:
So I'll let others speak to the military and intelligence side. But what I'll say is you saw a great example of the coordination and cooperation between a lot of different players in our government to make sure everything happened safely. The president gave the order on Wednesday that he wanted this thing brought down, but brought down safely. And that's a complicated thing --
CHUCK TODD:
But that order… He gave that order to the military on Wednesday: Shoot it down. However, but under what conditions?
SEC. PETE BUTTIGIEG:
Well, that's just the thing. It sounds simple --
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
SEC. PETE BUTTIGIEG: I suppose, if you don't think about it for more than a second. But this thing was above American airspace in terms of where most of the aircraft fly. And we have the most complicated national airspace in the world. This thing is larger – the metal equipment there is larger than a bus. When they did shoot it down, the debris field was about seven miles. And so the concern of course, is how do you do it in a way that absolutely minimizes the danger to American lives on the ground and any kind of aviation operations. That's exactly what happened. FFA worked closely with the Pentagon. This thing was brought down in a safe manner, and flights are back to normal in the U.S.
CHUCK TODD:
How disruptive was this to air travel throughout the week? Or was it?
SEC. PETE BUTTIGIEG:
Well, it's certainly something that we were tracking and monitoring. And while this particular situation was obviously unusual, it's not unusual for there to be things – not just the weather that we all know can affect flights, but everything from a space launch to a military operation – that can complicate the national airspace. That's why I so appreciate the work that FAA, the Pentagon and other players do together to keep things moving.
CHUCK TODD:
How often are some of these incidents simply classified as UFOs right now, because we don't want to talk about the military aspect of it, when maybe pilots accidentally run into these things or see these things?
SEC. PETE BUTTIGIEG:
Well, look. I mean, there are obviously things you can talk about and things that you can't. But what we work to make sure of on our side is that any time there's any situation that requires civilian aircraft to get out of the way, that that message gets through, and that operations are safe. And there's a phenomenal track record of doing just that.
CHUCK TODD:
Are we now in a cold war posture with China? How else would you describe it, if we're not?
SEC. PETE BUTTIGIEG:
Well, I don't know that you can do a one-to-one comparison with the last Cold War. But certainly you see this kind of great power competition. And we're seeing it a lot. While this week the headlines have been dominated by this particular situation, so much of it is playing out in the economic space. And that's part of why we're making the kind of investments that we are, whether we're talking about infrastructure, noting that you can't lead the world, especially in a highly competitive environment, unless you have world-leading infrastructure. It's one of the things that motivated this administration to work, this president to lead, in a bipartisan way, to do the biggest investment in infrastructure since the Eisenhower years. Also, on the manufacturing side, the CHIPS and Science Act was another example of a bipartisan accomplishment under President Biden that is really going to give the U.S. an edge in this kind of economic competition with China. And I'm particularly energized and concerned about making sure that we stay ahead when it comes to EVs, getting these supply chains onto American soil, creating American jobs, so that it's a made-in-America electric vehicle revolution.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, what's interesting about how the Biden administration has conducted its manufacturing policy and foreign policy with China, how the Trump administration did – and in that sense there hasn't been a lot of disconnect between the two administrations. Is this, is this an admission that the 30 or 40 year Western consensus that said, "Hey, if we bring China into the economic system, it's going to de-fang them." It had the exact opposite effect, didn't it?
SEC. PETE BUTTIGIEG:
Well, you know, whether it's Western engagement with China or whether it's Europe's engagement with Russia, there have clearly been a lot of lessons in recent years that engagement alone does not yield comfortable partnership and easy acceptance of a rules-based international order. And each of those struggles obviously is different. But I think some of those patterns do overlap.
CHUCK TODD:
Let's go to the President's State of the Union. Look, he's got a lot of things to tell. Why do you think that it has not penetrated the American public?
SEC. PETE BUTTIGIEG:
Well, look. These things don't sell themselves. And it's one of the reasons I'm really looking forward to that State of the Union address. I will say that there have been so many accomplishments under this administration. It can be difficult to list them in a distilled way. Recently the president hosted a send-off for Ron Klain, the departing chief of staff. And he put it in a way that I thought was especially moving. When you think back in historic terms to what it means to inherit one of the toughest situations faced by any president since FDR, pass the most significant legislation on our economy in many ways since FDR, while facing the largest land war in Europe since Truman, achieving the second-most-important health care bill since LBJ, and the most important infrastructure bill since Eisenhower. As Ron put it, "and that was just the beginning of the list of accomplishments." But one of the things that we found is that this is happening simultaneously with some of the toughest circumstances ever. We recognize that. And there continue to be a lot of issues that Americans are facing every day, even as we see extraordinary economic news: up 500,000 jobs just created in the last month.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, that's the thing. Nothing seems to accrue to his benefit.
SEC. PETE BUTTIGIEG:
Well, people say that.
CHUCK TODD:
Politically.
SEC. PETE BUTTIGIEG:
But then this president has exceeded expectations again and again, politically and functionally in terms of what we're getting done.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think the handling of the classified documents situation has contributed to this middling poll situation?
SEC. PETE BUTTIGIEG:
If you go week by week through the polls, you'll drive yourself crazy. The president and the administration remain focused on getting things done. Think about how rare it is to have unemployment this low and inflation coming down at the same time. That's not something that just happens on its own.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think, though, if he had been more transparent about this classified documents situation earlier that he might be in a better place?
SEC. PETE BUTTIGIEG:
Coulda, woulda, shoulda is not the strategic direction or focus of this administration. There's too much on the line. There's too much to do. Remember, while we're very proud of the extraordinary accomplishments, the 12 million jobs, the record-setting job creation, the comeback of the American manufacturing sector, inflation coming down, none of these things are guaranteed to go on, especially when you see some of the saber-rattling going on among House Republicans. If this kind of MAGAnomics takes hold, and you --
CHUCK TODD:
MAGAnomics. Is that a new phrase you're creating today?
SEC. PETE BUTTIGIEG:
Well, I'm trying to think of some way to explain what they seem to proposing. These threats around the debt ceiling, proposals to cut Social Security and Medicare, doubling down on preserving tax cuts for billionaires is the kind of central economic vision. If things were to go that way, this economic recovery would not be guaranteed to continue. We've got to keep pushing.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. Secretary Buttigieg, we'll be watching the State of The Union with you on Tuesday. Thanks for coming in and sharing your perspective.
SEC. PETE BUTTIGIEG:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
The death of Tyre Nichols has fueled a new push for police reform. But similar pleas have been met with little action for decades. In what came to be known as the "Long, hot summer of 1967," tensions over racial inequality erupted into violence in cities across the country, often triggered by a dispute between Black citizens and the police.
In Newark, 26 people died in five days of riots that began after two white police officers beat a Black cab driver during a traffic stop. NAACP leader Roy Wilkins appeared on Meet The Press that Sunday and called for better policing in America.
ROY WILKINS (ARCHIVAL):
I think these things that we talk about as a tradition: Jobs, and better housing, and better schools, and better treatment, and especially we tend to overlook that area that's so important, police-community relations, not the directives that the police commissioner issues on top, because they're nearly always perfect.
And not the directives of the second-in-command, but the man-to-man relationship between the policeman and the people in the community that he deals with. And I think if we made an in-depth study, we'd find that a good many things stem from that relationship.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back, panel is here: NBC News chief foreign affairs correspondent Andrea Mitchell; Democratic pollster Cornell Belcher; Lanhee Chen, a fellow at the Stanford University's Hoover Institute, who hasn't been here for a while because he was an active candidate for office in 2022. Sorry you lost, but we're glad to have you back. And Amy Walter, editor-in-chief of the Cook Political Report. All right, Andrea, I know you have a ton of reporting to share. But I want to take a step back. The lack of benefit of the doubt that Republicans are giving this administration, on one hand due to our current politics that shouldn't be surprising, but even on this, right?
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Well, partly there is bipartisan – a bipartisan majority on the Hill against China. This is reminiscent of the Cold War, the "Evil Empire." There is so much antipathy to China, so that's feeding this. I mean, they know that they've hit a hot button. And you could argue, politics aside, you could argue that the administration did not get out in front of it. And even Democratic --
CHUCK TODD:
Well, they let the media dictate the --
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Exactly, we --
CHUCK TODD:
– release strategy, if you will.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Our colleague, Courtney Kube, was breaking it. And so they hurried up and briefed the Hill, they hurried up – staff, at the staff level because none of the members were still in town and could go into a secure facility. And at that point, you know, they quickly came out at the Pentagon briefing. But that's not the same as sending out someone with a lot of metal on his chest like a Colin Powell, Desert Storm, you've got the maps, try to explain there --
CHUCK TODD:
It was a general nobody had known. I mean, no offense to that general. But it was – it wasn't the chairman of the joint chiefs.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
And he's not military.
CHUCK TODD:
It wasn't the secretary of defense.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
He's now a press spokesperson, so he's a public affairs official. And the fact that you didn't have a commander come out and try to credibly claim, "We can disable it. We can exploit data from it." We can – you know, obviously they can use lasers. They can do things against that big payload that Congressman Turner was talking about. They can disrupt the comms. There was some value in letting it go across. But, as Jeremy Bash said last night on Nightly News, we have to develop technology to take something out like this without worrying about debris falling. We have to be better prepared. And yes, they do have better – they have satellites, obviously. Somebody said to me last night from the administration, "This was a Dukes of Hazzard operation." Yes, but they still were able to penetrate our airspace.
CHUCK TODD:
They tested our – they tested our, essentially, our electric fence.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Right.
CHUCK TODD:
The politics of this, Cornell, not surprising to anybody here. I mean, my goodness, should Congress take a harder line on China? Should, I mean, you know, we have it. It's across the board. It's nearly universal. Three in four voters believe this. And it’s, you know, 70% of Democrats, 70% of Independents, 82% of Republicans. There is no downside to being tough on China.
CORNELL BELCHER:
No. And that's the problem, right?
CHUCK TODD:
That's the problem.
CORNELL BELCHER:
That's the problem because our politics get in the way. And this shows it, right? We have a balloon. By the way, this is not the first time they've used balloons. And we use balloons. In fact, we're increasing our budget for balloons, right? And they have these things called satellites. They're up there all the time. But this was a visual. This is Top Gun. This is Maverick. So the politics of it get involved in it in a way, and it gets over-hyped. And why is this the problem? Because, Chuck, I'm a Gen Xer. I remember in elementary school hiding under a desk, you know, during those drills. And are we headed for another cold war? And is it necessary? Are we diving head first into another cold war with China and where we have military spending? And guess what Japan's doing? Japan is increasing its military budget. This is heading in the wrong – the politics of this will get us sideways.
CHUCK TODD:
It sounds like we're already in a cold war.
LANHEE CHEN:
Well, the problem is that the politics interfere with our ability to actually solve the problem we have, which is that we are in a strategic competition with China. Do we really have the political environment now to actually do something about it? Let's not forget, by the way, one in four Americans use TikTok. TikTok is effectively a surveillance tool. So why are we talking about a balloon when we're not talking about all these things that are on our phones, right?
CHUCK TODD:
Well, some of us have not put TikTok on our phones.
LANHEE CHEN:
Well, I haven't, right? But maybe your kids have, right?
CHUCK TODD:
Oh, they have.
LANHEE CHEN:
This is the problem is that we need to be serious about the competition and figure out what the policy alternatives are to actually deal with this.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, and that's the thing, Amy. I think that the Chinese are learning a little something about our reaction, and some --
AMY WALTER:
Absolutely.
CHUCK TODD:
-- may say overreaction to this.
AMY WALTER:
Well, and our division, which only helps to make this much more difficult. And the question, I think, we have a couple of things that haven't been answered yet, why now? Why do something as obvious as this, right? We have TikTok. Why do a balloon? What was going on here?
CHUCK TODD:
By the way, good luck, TikTok, of thinking you're going to get some little side deal now. Geez, yeah. I'd say that balloon's popped.
LANHEE CHEN:
Timing's not good.
CORNELL BELCHER:
Well-played.
CHUCK TODD:
Thank you very much.
AMY WALTER:
Right, but the timing right before the secretary of state is supposed to go to China. Why do that now? What was that supposed to do? And is this derailing our new outreach to China, diplomatic outreach? Or is it just delaying it? And if it's delaying, which it probably is, what does it look like come next?
CHUCK TODD:
We’re not outreaching – this diplomatic outreach, we are doing everything we can to slow their economic growth. I mean, if you're in China's shoes, this is – we are, we have decided, "Look, we were wrong." The 40-year consensus about China we've now decided was wrong.
AMY WALTER:
Well, corporations aren't pulling back.
CHUCK TODD:
Not yet.
AMY WALTER:
We're not changing the way that we are --
CHUCK TODD:
We're trying to incentivize corporations.
AMY WALTER:
We are trying to incentivize them, but it's not happening.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Take a look at --
CHUCK TODD:
No wonder China wants to come at us.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
No, exactly. Now, yes, President Xi and President Biden agreed on this in November in Bali. And they wanted this meeting that was going to take place this weekend, this very day. That said, look at it from President Xi's perspective. He wants a reset in the entire relationship. We just did export controls, the CHIPS bill.
CHUCK TODD:
Oh, we've reset the relationship, Andrea. Just not on his terms.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Right. And the Philippines, that was a real trigger, as well as a new marine base in Guam. So there are things from their perspective to blow this up. Someone said to me, "Well, did the military undercut Xi?" Well, I talked to a top military official, a former official, who said, "Xi knows everything. There's no question about Xi knowing everything." So wanted to – they knew that we were not going to be able to hold this meeting. The question now is what comes next.
CHUCK TODD:
What comes next? All right, let's pause here. When we come back, we saw Florida Governor Ron DeSantis win a battle this week over an African American history course. We're going to look at how Americans are losing faith in their public schools, whether it's secondary or higher ed.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back, Data Download time. This week, the College Board announced it was revising the curriculum of its new AP African American Studies course, removing elements around Black writers associated with critical race theory, content related to LGBTQ issues and feminism and an entire section about Black Lives Matter. The changes were seen as a victory for Republicans like Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, who had announced plans to ban the old version of the course in his state last month. But this news was just the latest flare-up in what has become a deeply polarizing and partisan divide in how Americans view public education, both in our public schools and in our universities. Look at this confidence in public schools. Look, Democrats have more confidence than Republicans. But look at this falloff since the start of this century. Republicans and Democrats were – are pretty close. And then basically the pandemic, and you can see the nose dive here – down to just 14% of Republicans have confidence in public schools. If you think about all the rhetoric by Republican officials, it's no wonder. Then check this out: Is college the best way to get ahead? Among Democrats, basically nearly three in four Democrats believe this. Look at this divide. Among Republicans, less than 40% believe this. And you sort of see it, right? Again, the idea of attacking liberal indoctrination. And where do you get that? Liberal propaganda. Do colleges do this? Democrats, only 17% believe this happens there; 83% of Republicans believe that. And of course, in our high schools, the numbers are basically the same. Only 16% of Democrats believe that you're being taught liberal propaganda, but 85% of Republicans now believe this. Talk about a divide. This is a massive one and it's taking place at every local public school in the country. Up next, she says it's time for a new generation. And someone that can win a general election. Nikky Haley believes she's ready to defeat Donald Trump.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. So Nikky Haley became – well, she will officially get in in a couple weeks. Lanhee Chen, she made the case that it's time for a new generation. She's making that, "Let's turn the page." You see in some polling that, yeah, if you can, if you can make the "turn the page" from both Biden and Trump, there is a constituency there. But does that constituency exist in the Republican primary? You, you were technically – no person got more Republican votes than you did. You were the leading vote getter for a Republican in the state of California and it happened to make you the leading Republican vote getter. Is there a constituency for Nikki Haley out there?
LANHEE CHEN:
I think there is. I think there is. I think by her getting in, it breaks the seal in some ways. It opens the floodgates. I think that what has been a race that's been frozen in time, it's felt to me like it was frozen in time. If I think back to the 2012 cycle when I was working with Mitt Romney, things were in full gear by the time we reached February. It feels like this cycle – this feels very different. And I think with Nikki Haley coming out and making this declaration, first of all, kudos to her. It takes some guts, I think, to jump into a race like this. But it gives other candidates who are thinking about this, who are forming infrastructure, the permission to be a little more public. Now, what happens to her, what happens to her candidacy? We'll see. But I do think what she's talking about, the value of having a Republican that's forward-looking, that's younger, that's more dynamic, that has experience at the state level as well, I think that's a message that will resonate with Republican voters. I think they're looking for an alternative.
AMY WALTER:
And they're looking for somebody who can win. And that's the other thing she says.
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
AMY WALTER:
She says, "I'm a generational change and I can win. We haven't won the popular vote as Republicans seven out of the last eight elections.”
CHUCK TODD:
It's quite a remarkable stat.
AMY WALTER:
Which is pretty remarkable. And President Trump never tried to win the popular vote. At any point during the 2020 campaign it was, "How do I win enough Electoral College votes?" So that's a different piece on that.
CORNELL BELCHER:
Well, his policies won't allow him --
AMY WALTER:
That's right.
CORNELL BELCHER:
-- won’t allow him to win the popular vote. I mean, you've got to actually be four things that the majority of Americans actually want. I like the ideal of Nikki, Governor Haley, or Ambassador Haley, I guess, jumping in this race. But if I look at the Republican Party over the last decade or so, I don't think she has a lane, right? I don't think that Kasich, Jeb Bush lane that once upon a time was there is there right now. How is she going to compete with DeSantis and Donald Trump in these culture wars, in this – for me, sort of the Southern strategy 2.0 rebirth that we're seeing in this country right now? How does she compete with those guys?
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Well, she certainly can compete against Mike Pompeo because she was in that cabinet circle. She was a strong figure in that cabinet circle.
CHUCK TODD:
You take – I mean I don't really take the Pompeo candidacy all that seriously. This is a guy that's –
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Well, boy, he's organizing.
CHUCK TODD:
– never won statewide, let alone, let alone run anything else.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
He is going governor to governor. He is wrapping up party officials. He has the diet, I'm just going to say, you know –
CHUCK TODD:
Oh, no doubt he has the personal ambition.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
– cosmetically.
CHUCK TODD:
I just don't see – I just don’t see it.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
He's doing a lot of groundwork.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
That's what I'm tracking. And he's a real knife-wielding player. He was on that Benghazi committee. He went after Hillary Clinton. He really understands national politics a lot better.
CHUCK TODD:
But his book was so gossipy. It felt very personal. It just seems like he made nothing but enemies.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
But Nikky Haley, I would say, as a woman of color – a person of color, as a woman, Southern, was so strong after Mother Emanuel, the monument. All of that.
CORNELL BELCHER:
If she's running in a Democratic primary, I like her.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Well, it depends on how many people are in this primary.
LANHEE CHEN:
She's got to shift the terms of the debate.
CORNELL BELCHER:
Yes.
LANHEE CHEN:
She's not going to be able to win a debate with, in my view, with Ron DeSantis on woke politics.
CORNELL BELCHER:
That's right.
LANHEE CHEN:
She's got to completely reframe the conversation.
AMY WALTER:
And that’s –
CHUCK TODD:
It can't be about that. She has to – she’s almost got to push DeSantis in, "Hey, he's playing the old playbook. We've gotta move on from that."
CORNELL BELCHER:
I was about to – with DeSantis and Trump.
CHUCK TODD:
Now, I don't know if it works. I'm not going to say it's going to work.
CORNELL BELCHER:
I agree with you.
CHUCK TODD:
But I agree with you that --
CORNELL BELCHER:
But good luck.
CHUCK TODD:
– she can't pretend to be something she isn't.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
But can she preempt some of the other 17 potentially of getting in? Can she keep a Larry Hogan out? Can she keep Asa Hutchinson out?
AMY WALTER:
But is that who she's competing with? I mean, listen, the environment says voters want a change, right? That – on both sides, right? They also – so –
CHUCK TODD:
A majority of Democrats are not satisfied with Biden.
AMY WALTER:
I agree. So we know what the environment looks like. The hardest thing in politics is to understand the environment. You can be a great candidate, but if you're not understanding what voters want, it doesn't matter. So who can capture that lightning in a bottle? Who can understand, "All right, voters right now, what Republicans seem to be saying is, 'We want someone kind of like Trump who's pugilistic, but we want somebody who can win.'" Who is able to best make that case?
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Could that be Nikky Haley? I wouldn't discount it.
AMY WALTER:
I'm just saying we have to wait.
CHUCK TODD:
Cornell, what is, what is – is this State of the Union, can it have any impact for President Biden? How should he use it? Should he use it more as a campaign speech? Or should he use it as a way to throw down a legislative gauntlet to the House Republicans?
CORNELL BELCHER:
You're like a lawyer today, asking me questions you already know the answer to. Historically, you know, Chuck, the president, whether he's Democrat or Republican, the president gets a little bump out of the State of the Union. Everyone's watching.
CHUCK TODD:
Because he's talking to his people, right?
CORNELL BELCHER:
Rah, rah, rah. It's a rah-rah session. But historically, we know it flattens out. But I do think it is an opportunity for him to talk about the good things that have happened under his administration. When he talks about the economy, talks about inflation coming down, talks about a job market the way we haven't seen, talks about manufacturing jobs. By the way, one of the reasons why China's sort of ticked off, manufacturing jobs are coming back to the United States of America. So I think he has a good story to lay out. And I think this is the beginning of his --
CHUCK TODD:
Why is – is it classified documents that's prevented him from getting a bump post-election?
CORNELL BELCHER:
There's so many variables, Chuck. I wish there were one variable because it would be easy to solve, but there's so many variables.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
And he's not getting credit for the economy, and should be.
CORNELL BELCHER:
Yes.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
You know, I think the danger of recession is receding. It's not altogether gone. We see a big jobs market. It's a problem for Jay Powell because now they do have to keep tightening. But, you know, wage growth is moderating.
CHUCK TODD:
I tell you, people don't --
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Layoffs are only in a few sectors.
CHUCK TODD:
I know.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
They're not universal.
CHUCK TODD:
There's no doubt --
AMY WALTER:
Manufacturing is building.
CHUCK TODD:
-- but people still feel like this economy's just not --
ANDREA MITCHELL:
That's right, because inflation’s stable.
CHUCK TODD:
It still feels wobbly.
CORNELL BELCHER:
Mid-summer, mid-summer – let's, let’s check in on that.
CHUCK TODD:
That's fair. All right, before we go, in April, on our news magazine show Meet the Press Reports, we staged a full-scale war game with U.S. lawmakers, former Pentagon officials and China experts to see what would happen if a conflict broke out over the issue of Taiwan, and how a potential war with China would unfold. If you want to see the full episode, go to NBCNews.com/MTPReports. It is chilling to watch. That's all we have for today. Thanks for watching. We'll be back next week, because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.