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Meet the Press - January 22, 2023

Sen. Joe Manchin (D-W.Va.), Rep. Nancy Mace (R-S.C.), Peter Baker, Brendan Buck, Kimberly Atkins Stohr and Kristen Welker

CHUCK TODD:

This Sunday, another document discovery. The FBI searched President Biden's Delaware home on Friday and found more classified materials. Six documents including some from his time as a senator were found. Biden insists he did nothing wrong.

PRES. JOE BIDEN:

I think you're gonna find there's nothing there. I have no regrets.

CHUCK TODD:

Plus warning signs. American politics teetering on the edge from the Court to Congress to Special Counsel probes and rising extremist threats. After losing an election and claiming it was rigged, a Republican candidate is arrested and charged in connection with shootings at the homes of four Democratic lawmakers.

NEW MEXICO DISTRICT ATTORNEY SAM BREGMAN:

An attack on elected officials is an attack on democracy.

CHUCK TODD:

New Mexico just the latest example of election denialism, sparking political violence. And post Roe: 50 years after the landmark Supreme Court decision granting a constitutional right to abortion. The debate over reproductive rights has shifted with the ruling now overturned.

REP. NANCY MACE:

We didn't learn anything after overturning of Roe v. Wade, We buried our head in the sand.

CHUCK TODD

But if you think either side is open to finding a middle ground, think again. My guest this morning Democratic Senator Joe Manchin of West Virginia and Republican congresswoman Nancy Mace of South Carolina

Plus, lasting impact.

PRES. BILL CLINTON:

I did not have sexual relations with that woman.

CHUCK TODD:

The Lewinsky scandal and its consequences still influencing American political life, 25 years later. Joining me for insight and analysis are NBC News Chief White House Correspondent Kristen Welker. Republican strategist Brendan Buck, New York Times Chief White House Correspondent Peter Baker and Kimberly Atkins Stohr, Senior Opinion Writer for The Boston Globe. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.

ANNOUNCER:

From NBC News in Washington, the longest running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.

CHUCK TODD:

Good Sunday morning. Boy, our democracy and our politics, they feel like we're at a breaking point. We have rising political violence fueled by election denialism, economic brinksmanship in Congress, a Supreme Court, relationships between the justices so strained after an unprecedented leak, they've yet to issue an opinion this term. And trust in the court from the public, never been lower. And this morning, we're waking up to reports of another mass shooting with at least 10 dead at a Lunar New Year event in Monterey Park, California. Details are still coming in. No need to jump to conclusions but let's be honest, these events do not exactly bring comfort to our current political system. We don't handle these well or solve these problems. And if all of this wasn't enough, adding to this instability, we have both the current and former presidents under investigation, and on Saturday night the White House revealed more classified information was found at Biden's Wilmington home after what was a remarkable 13-hour, FBI-led search on Friday of the home of a sitting president. Wasn’t a subpoena, it was a cooperative search. It was done with the president's legal team acknowledging it. They said they offered to provide prompt access to his home and that six more items with classified markings were indeed found including documents from Biden's time as a senator, as well as vice president. And this FBI search comes just days after Biden said he had no regrets about how he's handled these – issue of classified documents and how he's talked to the public about it. But it's likely to prompt more comparisons between the current and former presidents, though of course Mr. Trump and his advisers are also being investigated for obstructing their probe. Then we have the issue of election denialism. That's been fueled by Donald Trump. And sadly, it appears it's given some of his supporters a permission slip to commit political violence. The case in New Mexico this week is just the latest in a string of violent incidents rooted in election denialism – from the assault on Brazil's capital by supporters of the former president there, where Trump allies actually helped sow doubts about those election results. We had the attack on Paul Pelosi just days before the midterm elections as well. And then finally, we have this manufactured crisis here in Washington. This escalating rhetoric over the debt limit. It's a reminder of just how fractured right now the Republican Party is, because it's Republicans wanting to have this fight in an attempt to rebrand themselves as the party of fiscal discipline, if you will, after they oversaw an explosive rise in the national debt under President Donald Trump. So Republicans are trying to use this debate to try to unify them around an issue -- cutting spending. Democrats, of course, now see an opportunity to paint House Republicans as extremists. The reality is, of course, at the end of the day, this debt limit is going to get raised. We just don't know how it gets done. Even Republican Senate Leader Mitch McConnell concedes this point.

[BEGIN TAPE]

SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:

America must never default on its debt, it never has, it never will.

REPORTER:

Should we be concerned about a financial crisis?

SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:

No, I would not be concerned about a financial crisis.

[END TAPE]

CHUCK TODD:

And joining me now is Senator Joe Manchin of West Virginia. Senator Manchin, welcome back to Meet the Press.

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Chuck, it's always good to be with you.

CHUCK TODD:

Look, I want to get into the debt ceiling. I want to get into all this stuff. But I -- we got some developments overnight with those classified documents, an FBI search -- the White House said it was coordinated with the FBI. But we've now had an FBI search of former President Trump. Now we have an FBI search into President Biden's residence. What's your assessment of how the president has handled the situation?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Well, I mean, it's just hard to believe that in the United States of America, we have a former president and a current president that are basically in the same situation. How does this happen? You know, only thing I can tell you, Chuck, is when I go into the SCIF with the secure documents, they always ask, "Are you clean?" when you walk out. They want to make sure you're not carrying anything out. You know, and it might be a mistake. You might just put it in your other papers, but you double-check right there. To be held accountable and responsible is what we all are. And to put those in unsecured spaces is irresponsible.

CHUCK TODD:

Do you see similarities, or do you see more differences in how President Trump versus how President Biden --

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

I'm not going to make --

CHUCK TODD:

-- has handled this?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

-- that decision, but I think that Merrick Garland did the right thing by putting the special counsel.

CHUCK TODD:

You do?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

And I think that we should wait until the special counsel, rather than making this a political circus. Let them find out the facts. What -- was one more damaging? Are they both about the same, did not cause any problem, or is one more reckless and irresponsible than the other? I can't answer that question, but I think the special counsel will do a better job than the politicians and the political circus that is going to follow.

CHUCK TODD:

President Biden said he had no regrets in how he handled this. Do you have any advice for him on how he should handle this going forward?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Oh, I think he should have a lot of regrets. Yeah. I would --

CHUCK TODD:

What are those --

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

I would think that. I said, "Whoever's responsible." I mean, if I hold people accountable, and I use -- whether my chief of staff or, you know, my staff, who, that were doing this, that I'm looking at, then I'm going to hold someone accountable. But basically, the buck stops with me.

CHUCK TODD:

So you think he should be out there, "Look, I mess -- I messed up --"

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

That's all. Just say --

CHUCK TODD:

"Maybe I didn't do it." Just say it --

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

-- "I made a mistake."

CHUCK TODD:

Just fall on your sword here?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

We're all human.

CHUCK TODD:

Yeah.

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

We make mistakes. I can tell you I don't think anyone intended, he sure didn't intend for it to fall in wrong hands and use it against our country. I know they didn't intend that to happen. Could it have happened? I don't know. And yeah, you just might as well say, "Listen, it's irresponsible. It was something we should've had a better check and balance on.”

CHUCK TODD:

Now, former President Trump defied a subpoena. So in that sense, the, the way each has handled it is different.

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Yes.

CHUCK TODD:

Do you acknowledge that?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Absolutely. Much different than the other. One's saying, "Okay, I hope I didn't make any mistakes.

CHUCK TODD:

Right.

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

-- I hope no one's compromised. I hope we didn't hurt our country." And the other one says, "Ugh, no. I know it didn't. Believe me." Well, you know what? What they said, verify? You have to verify.

CHUCK TODD:

Trust but verify?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Trust but verify. Let's find out. And that's what the special counsel's --

CHUCK TODD:

And that's what you want here? Both special counsels to sort of resolve this?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

First of all, everyone of us, in our life, have to be held accountable and responsible for our actions because people want accountability. And they want basically when you're held accountable, are you responsible or not? If you are, would you -- can you fix that? Did you make a mistake? Fine. You're, you know --

CHUCK TODD:

And that's what you think – the president needs to get out there and just get in front of this?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Cicero, Cicero said, "To err is human." You're a human being. You're going to make mistakes. Did you intend to make it? Did you intend to harm somebody? Did you intend to basically do an irresponsible thing? I don’t think -- hopefully, neither one of them did.

CHUCK TODD:

Right.

SEN. JOE MANCHIIN:

But it sure turned out to be irresponsible.

CHUCK TODD:

Let's talk about the debt ceiling. You’re -- as always, you're trying to find a compromise, middle ground.

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Yeah.

CHUCK TODD:

I know your instinct here. But why should Republicans get the benefit of the doubt on the debt ceiling here, considering that it's a -- that they’re sort of manufacturing a crisis that's a bit unnecessary right now?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Well, first of all, if one side thinks that the other one's more responsible for the debt at $31.4 trillion, that’s, that is totally not accurate and it's deceptive. We're all responsible. We've got a $31.4 trillion debt. It's a runaway debt, and no one's holding themselves accountable. And basically, I think you said it, use the budget process. I've been here 12 years. We haven’t had a budget yet.

CHUCK TODD:

Yeah. I -- that's what I don't get here.

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

We haven't had a budget yet.

CHUCK TODD:

And that's what I question --

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Yeah, you should.

CHUCK TODD:

-- you want to do this special committee here.

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

I'm --

CHUCK TODD:

And I'm sitting here going, "Why add more "bureaucracy?" We have a budget committee. We have two budget committees. We have a Joint Committee on Taxation. We have all these different committees that have already been created to deal with this process. Why can't we use the congressional bureaucracy that exists?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

We have 12 appropriations committees --

CHUCK TODD:

They're --

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

They’re supposed to do their job. Why don't you basically put a time certain on --

CHUCK TODD:

Right.

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

-- what you can do and what you can't and when you do it? I can't speak for that. I was a former governor of the state of West Virginia.

CHUCK TODD:

Right.

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

I was responsible for a balanced budget amendment and basically staying within the realms of my Constitution. So, you know, I met every week. Every week like clockwork they walked in my office on a Tuesday or Wednesday and sit down and go over it. You're either going to be -- have to make some cuts now, make some adjustments now, so we end the year with a balanced budget or a surplus. There's nothing that holds us accountable. Nothing at all. We can say, "Oh, we're going to do it." As I've said before, 12 years, haven't had a budget. That's ridiculous.

CHUCK TODD:

So, let me -- you want to do this sort of, that you and Senator Romney, to have committee that deals with the trust fund issues. But right now, neither party wants to touch – I mean, in that sense, Donald Trump came out, and certainly Democrats, nobody wants to touch Social Security or Medicare.

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Well, first of all --

CHUCK TODD:

So how do you separate those two out and deal with our fiscal problems?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Why would you scare the bejesus out of people that are basically going to say -- in West Virginia, I've got 60% of my population that that's all they have is Medicare and Social Security. You think I'm going to go down that path and put them in jeopardy? No. But there are so much other things, the basically wasteful spending, that can be corralled in without scaring the bejesus, depending on what political side you're on.

CHUCK TODD:

Let me ask you about wasteful spending, because one of the three most hypocritical words I hear are "waste, fraud and abuse." Right. Everybody says, "Oh, waste, fraud, and abuse."

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

And it's all there. It's all there.

CHUCK TODD:

Okay, but waste, fraud, and abuse aren't going to balance the budget, ok? At the end of the day, there are going to have to be choices that have to be made. What is something that ought to be on, on, in the decision of, "You know, maybe we're spending too much"?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Well, we know we're spending too much because we're not balancing our budget and --

CHUCK TODD:

But on what?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

-- we have more debt. The bottom line is, it's in the eyes of the beholder. That's the problem that we have. Five-hundred-and-thirty-five people said, "Well, yeah. What you're doing is wasteful, Chuck. I think you ought to cut that." And you're going to say, "Okay, Joe. How about yours?"

CHUCK TODD:

But your, your spending that you think is mandatory, another person thinks is wasteful or abuse.

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Yeah. Just think, for every dollar, just get it down, break it down to the dollar. Is there any savings within that dollar you think that is wasteful or abuse that we could at least have a target to set? Is it a penny? Is it five pennies? Is it a nickel? Where is it?

CHUCK TODD:

But here's what gets lost here, is nobody will put anything on the table. Everybody says, "We've got to cut spending." Well, what? And nobody wants to articulate --

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Well, the process --

CHUCK TODD:

-- the what.

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Chuck, you hit it dead on the head. The process isn't working. How come we're not held accountable to have – to have the appropriation bills done at a certain time before the end of the fiscal year?

CHUCK TODD:

You tell me.

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Well, that's what I --

CHUCK TODD:

I mean –

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

You know –

CHUCK TODD:

– what does Chuck Schumer say? What does Mitch McConnell

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

You know what happens? It rolls over into an omnibus bill at the end and everything's thrown into it. "Okay. Here we got it, guys. That's it." It makes no sense.

CHUCK TODD:

So what should – it sounds like you actually think the debt ceiling is a moment we should use to focus on --

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Well, if you're going to use the debt ceiling for anything except for theatrics, okay, which is what probably might happen for a while, we're going to pass the debt ceiling. You are exactly correct.

CHUCK TODD:

Right.

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

It has to pass. You know, we have the currency of it, you know – the good faith of the United States dollar and the currency of the world. You just can't let it default and basically hold us in jeopardy from where we stand in the world, world order. With that being said, is how do you get to it? Do you use this moment? Do you come to a reason – responsibility? What are we paying for interest now? For ten years, it was zero. It was funny money. Were not – you know, it doesn't put any burden. We're just raising debt, but we're not basically harming how we have to meet that debt through our interest payments. Now we're talking real money on an interest basis. We're almost, up to what our defense budget is, paying in interest.

CHUCK TODD:

I guess I come back to, and I don't think you have the answer either, which is what is the moment to force this conversation?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

This is a moment if, if Kevin McCarthy coming in – coming in new says, "Okay, this is – it's serious," and he takes it from the standpoint. And he knows --

CHUCK TODD:

What does he need to do that you would take him seriously in this?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Well, you know, Chuck --

CHUCK TODD:

Do you know what I mean by that? Like, how do you know when he's being serious, and how do you when he's paying politics?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Well, the bottom line is he has a hell of a – heck of a political hand that's not, not very good right now. He's not holding a lot, if you will. And he has ten or 12 that’s pretty much out there. He has to make a decision how he wants to govern and how he ought to these next two years in this 118th Congress. You know – I just – it was amazing. I just saw that the Ohio legislature, I don't know if you paid any attention to that --

CHUCK TODD:

I did. Yeah.

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

The Ohio legislature, which is Republican-controlled –

CHUCK TODD:

Yeah.

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

– basically chose their new speaker, a Republican, with as many, if not more votes, from the Democrats because they wanted someone they can work with. That's a coalition. Why can't we put coalitions together here?

CHUCK TODD:

Well, that's --

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

The moderate, centrist Democrats coming over and working, whoever's the majority, and saying, "You don't have to bow and cow-tail to the extremes."

CHUCK TODD:

Yeah. You don't have to worry about primaries. A lot of your colleagues have to worry about primaries. Isn't that why this --

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Let me tell you --

CHUCK TODD:

– doesn't happen?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

– one more thing. I've got to be honest with you, Chuck. If it's all about the election, the next election, you know, that's the worst thing that could happen to us.

CHUCK TODD:

You just came from Davos.

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Yeah.

CHUCK TODD:

There's a moment, I don't know if you realized, that went viral between you and Senator Sinema. I want to show the moment here. I want to ask you about it. You guys are high-fiving. I think we'll show it again here. It was right after she was talking about the filibuster.

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Yeah.

CHUCK TODD:

Is that what you were high-fiving about?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Yeah, that was – I think, you know, after that. I saw her hand go up and I said, "Sure" because here, the two of us are committed to protecting the filibuster, which I think protects checks and balances on the executive branch. So if you have a Democrat, Democrat, Democrat – president, House and Senate – and you have a strong president, basically leader of the party, then you don't have a check and balance because I can guarantee you the House and Senate will roll wherever the president wants. I – and I've said this before. I appreciate the Republican senators and the leadership of the minority leader at that time, McConnell, majority leader at that time – with Donald Trump every day beating on him, "Get rid of the filibuster." You've got 53, 54 Republicans, and he would not. And I appreciate that. And I told Harry Reid we should not have done it when we did it in 2013. But to come back now, the checks and balances aren't there. It makes and forces them to work together. Think what we've accomplished in the 117th, the most divided Congress we've ever had, and we did more substantial bills, I think that’s going to be transformational.

CHUCK TODD:

You think those first two years of Biden and this Democratic Congress is going to be historic?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

I think it's going to be transformational and historical, yes, because here you had a bipartisan infrastructure bill we haven't done for years.

CHUCK TODD:

Yeah.

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

You had then on top of that the CHIPS Act, which will bring manufacturing back so we don't have supply chains that we're depending on that aren't loyal and trustworthy. And then we have the Inflation Reduction Act, which is going to give us – it's been misaligned because this administration basically said it's environmental, environmental, environmental. That bill is designed to be energy security, Chuck. And energy security is exactly what we need.

CHUCK TODD:

And you're frustrated that the White House won't say the phrase "energy security"?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

They will not use the word, and they haven't. I'm begging you all, please. Energy security. We have to have fossil. We do it better and cleaner than anywhere in the world. And we can be energy secured for ten years, and also be able to invest in technology of the future.

CHUCK TODD:

Is this an agenda you can run for reelection on in West Virginia?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Oh, most certainly because we're seeing right now, I've got a battery plant coming in. I've got basically hydrogen coming in that direction. We've got expansion. And we’re raising our coal with carbon capture sequestration. We've got basically methane capturing using gas. We have people that are fighting continuously. And you have to have the pipeline to move this product. And it's going to be needed. If not, you're going to end up like Europe. And that's where I didn't want to rub it into them, but Europe took an approach that they're going to say, "We're going to have cap-and-trade." And we're going to be basically charging you a carbon tax." I've said, "I'm not going to support that and vote for it because I think it doesn't work." So I took the approach, and basically we wrote this bill with incentives. And it was working. And that's why they were all upset. That's why the chancellor and that's why presidents of other countries were very upset on this bill and concerned about it.

CHUCK TODD:

If you run for office in 2024, are you going to run as a Democrat?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Chuck, I haven't made a decision what I'm going to do in 2024. I've got two years ahead of me now to do the best I can for the state and for my country.

CHUCK TODD:

What are – what’s on the table? Is reelection on the table?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Everything's on the table.

CHUCK TODD:

Is running for governor on the table or no?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

No. I've done that.

CHUCK TODD:

Okay, that you've ruled out?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

I've done that.

CHUCK TODD:

So everything on the table, there's basically only one other thing: the presidency. Is that something you would do outside the Democratic Party if you could?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

The only thing I can tell you is what I will do is whatever I can when I make my decision, what I think is the best that I can support and represent the people of West Virginia, but also be true to this country and the Constitution of this country.

CHUCK TODD:

That sounds like somebody that's looking for a way into national politics.

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Well, you know, every senator's on a national --

CHUCK TODD:

I understand that. But you know where I'm going here.

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

I know where you're going. And the bottom line is that I'm --

CHUCK TODD:

You're not telling me no?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

I'm telling you that I'm going to do everything I can to make sure that when I make my decision, I make it based on what's best, what I think I can do to support the best for my country and my state.

CHUCK TODD:

Do you want President Biden to seek re-election?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

He’ll have to make that decision. I think that's a personal decision, and --

CHUCK TODD:

And you haven't decided – if he does, you're not ready to support him?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

I haven't decided on anything I'm going to do until I see what the lay of the land is going to be at that time because this country needs to unite. We need to come back together. We're not coming together. And it needs to bring somebody that can bring this country together. I think he's done a good job in so many factions, in so many areas. I think there's a lot more to be done. I think he's been pulled to the left too far, and I think I've told him that. I've been upfront with that. That centrist center is what the country wants. That's what the people want in America. They want us to work out of the center. Hey, just because you're on one side or the other, Republican ideas aren't always bad. And the Democrats don't have all the answers, and vice versa. Work in that. But don't be pure to where, "Oh, I'm sorry. That's a Democrat idea and I'm a Republican. I can’t – no way I can agree with that." To me, that's foreign to me.

CHUCK TODD:

Senator Joe Manchin, there’s a bunch of other things I wanted to get to, but --

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

I'm sure we will.

CHUCK TODD:

– we will keep doing it.

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Okay, Chuck.

CHUCK TODD:

Fascinating conversation. So when would you make a decision about 2024?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Well, I'm not in a hurry, you know. As you know, I'm not --

CHUCK TODD:

Filing deadline’s early in 2024, so you've got to make this decision, what, in six months?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Well, not in West Virginia.

CHUCK TODD:

Yeah?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Not in West Virginia. I'm okay.

CHUCK TODD:

You've still got a little bit of time.

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

I've got time for that.

CHUCK TODD:

Senator --

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Thank you.

CHUCK TODD:

– thanks for coming.

SEN. JOE MANCHIN:

Thanks, Chuck.

CHUCK TODD:

Appreciate it. When we come back, she says her party has been tone deaf since Roe was overturned. Is there really any middle ground? Republican Congresswoman Nancy Mace of South Carolina joins me next.

CHUCK TODD:

Welcome back. For decades, opposition to Roe v. Wade was a litmus test in the Republican Party. Now on the 50th anniversary of that decision and the overturning of the constitutional right to an abortion, Republicans are in an uncomfortable position. Activists are pushing for tougher abortion restrictions, calling for a national abortion ban in some cases, while the swing voters Republicans need to win in swing districts or statewide in general elections increasingly favor keeping abortion legal. It's an issue that will continue to be pushed into the headlines for the next year or two by the coming Republican presidential primary and by state legislatures, every one of them convening this calendar year, which have already passed abortion bans into law and are expected to be very active this year, both in limiting abortion rights in red states and expanding them in blue states. Joining me now is Republican Congresswoman Nancy Mace of South Carolina. Congressman Mace, welcome back to Meet the Press.

REP. NANCY MACE:

Good morning. Thank you.

CHUCK TODD:

Look, you've made your position pretty clear on your – on your discomfort with how the national party's been handling this so far, those congressional bills, and in general where you think the party needs to go. But let's get some specifics here. When you look at the public's opinion about Roe, and in some ways, Roe has become more popular since it was overturned, is that the middle ground for the public? You know, maybe nobody loved it on the far left and far right, but was that actually the right middle ground for the American public?

REP. NANCY MACE:

Well, Roe, if you look at the details, would have allowed, you know, abortion up until birth of the baby, which is not something anyone, the vast majority of the Americans, support. But I will tell you, living in a swing district and representing a swing district, I polled the issue over and over and over again. I've done a number of town halls. In fact, I had my first town hall of this Congress last week. And it is a top issue for swing voters. It's the number two issue in my district, and the vast majority of people in my district don't like what happened after Roe was overturned. They support women's right to choose, generally. But I have spoken to Republican and Democrat women, and the folks in my district, swing voters, are willing to find some middle ground here. Everyone recognizes abortion up until birth is not something that they want. And at the same time, banning all abortions with zero exceptions isn't something people support. And so where is the middle ground? How do we get there? Democrats are at 24 weeks, for example, with gestational limits; Republicans, 12 to 15 on average. Can we find some middle ground around 20 weeks, for example, if we're talking specifics on some sort of gestational limitations when we're talking about legislation at the state or federal level? I don't know if we can get there because both sides are really, really entrenched. And I see that because I'm repeatedly attacked by pro-life groups. Even though I am pro-life, I'm at least willing to have some concessions, find that middle ground because the vast majority of people I represent, that's what they're asking for, not digging in on the far right or the far left on this issue.

CHUCK TODD:

Look, I hear where you're trying to go and, I think, what you're trying to do. Unfortunately, you've got folks that just see it as a morality issue or as a personal freedom issue. And so compromising either your morals or your freedoms is very difficult to do. Do you think this is just we're not ready yet in our politics, that we need to go through a few more cycles? Do you think your party needs to lose more on this issue before more folks look at it the way you look at it?

REP. NANCY MACE:

Well, it's the reason we didn't get more of a majority. We should have had a dozen or two-dozen-seat majority this legislative session, but we don't because this is one of the issues that was top of mind for swing voters. And when you're looking ahead to '24, whether it's keeping the majority or trying to win the White House, going to the extremes and digging in there isn't going to work for most people. And so when I look at every issue, not just on Roe v. Wade, but every issue, we're so divided. It's refreshing to hear Senator Joe Manchin, whom I sometimes joke he’s the most popular Republican in the Senate right now, but to hear him talk about these issues in a very refreshing, balanced way is the way both sides of the aisle need to approach every issue, including abortion. And I'm here, waving my hand, being a very vocal person on this and saying, "I'm pro-life, but I'm willing to sit down and talk about how do we balance the rights of women and the right to life?” At some point, that infant has the right to life. And women's right are equally important, so let's have that conversation. Let's have it in the open. Let's find a way to move together because having a divided Congress means we're supposed to be working together, but both sides are afraid of their primaries. That's not the way we should be operating, but that’s the way the majority of people in Congress, they vote and legislate out of fear.

CHUCK TODD:

Do you think you may get primaried on the abortion issue?

REP. NANCY MACE:

Well, I mean, I got primaried last time and the time before that. I get – I expect a primary in the general election every time, being in a swing district. But I will tell you, even with the far right coming after me on this issue in the last primary, I won overwhelmingly by nine points. And then, when we had our general election, I flipped 40% of Democrat precincts and out-performed the former president in my district, as well, in the most conservative precincts. And so I found a way to try represent all the voices. I can't represent one side or the other.

CHUCK TODD:

You are on the oversight committee, maybe not a lot of people know that. We got news this morning of the FBI conducting the search, finding more classified documents with President Biden. I know that the head of this committee, James Comer, wants to spend more time looking at this, as well. Should – how do you think the oversight committee, what role should they play in this particular investigation? And can you separate the Biden classified document issue from the Trump classified document issue?

REP. NANCY MACE:

They're very similar. And yet, there are some differences. It's hard to say one or the other because we haven't actually seen the classified or top secret information they both may have been holding. They're similar in that they both wrongly took classified information away from the National Archives and away from, you know, where they should have been deposited in a classified space, like a SCIF that was mentioned earlier today. But the difference between the former president and the current president is that for five years, the current president and these documents were hidden, nobody knew about them. And so – and when it was discovered, they sat on it for two months, and it wasn't until a reporter leaked it out and wrote a story about did the rest of the country find out about these documents. I am grateful that the president is now being more transparent about it, but he did hide it for two months once it was discovered. And then nobody knew about it for five years. And so any investigation oversight does, part of that is, you know, getting to the other side of this. There's very little information. And so we know everything about the former president and we know that they knew about it for two years. The National Archives, the DOJ, the FBI, they knew where the documents were located. And I do want to see both the current and former president treated equally. I'm glad that the DOJ is investigating it. I want to see transparency and accountability. As was mentioned earlier, the American people are held to a certain standard. So, too, should the current and former president.

CHUCK TODD:

Well, let me ask you this: Should the oversight committee treat this – treat both presidents the same? Right now, it looks like the current chair only wants to investigate the Biden angle of this. What say you?

REP. NANCY MACE:

Well, I think that's because there's no – there’s very little information about Biden. I mean, these documents were hidden for five years. We have very little information, whereas with the former president, everybody knows that those documents existed. They knew where they were. They knew where they were located.

CHUCK TODD:

Well, they --

REP. NANCY MACE:

There was information that was presented to the public about --

CHUCK TODD:

Let me stop you there. We didn't know where they were located.

REP. NANCY MACE:

– the number of documents, for example.

CHUCK TODD:

They defied a subpoena, it took a search warrant.

REP. NANCY MACE:

Well, the FBI and the DOJ --

CHUCK TODD:

In fairness, they didn't know.

REP. NANCY MACE:

Well, in some media reports, it was stated that the FBI and the DOJ knew where they were located. Now, did that have access to it? Maybe, maybe not. It's hard to read from the media reports to actually know. But I do want to see, at the end of the day, the special counsel, the DOJ, treat both of them equally. And there was some discussion earlier in the program about intent. Well, the US could have lied. It's really not about intent; it's about knowledge of having these documents in your possession. And so we'll have to see where the investigation goes, but I do want to make that clarification. Intent is not – doesn't really matter in this case. It's the knowledge of do you know that you have these documents, and storing them and not giving them back to the appropriate sources, like the National Archives.

CHUCK TODD:

Let me move on to the debt ceiling. Do you believe it's a valid exercise to use the debt ceiling as leverage to try to negotiate spending cuts?

REP. NANCY MACE:

Well, there's no time like the present because we have the debt ceiling looming over us to talk about this. We haven't had a budget since Bill Clinton balanced the budget in 1998, a Democrat president doing that. Before that, it was Republican Richard Nixon in 1970. Clearly, something is wrong. And if you look at nationwide, 49 of 50 states, they balance their budgets every single fiscal year. And, you know, we need to get there, $31 trillion created by both Republicans and Democrats. This is both parties' faults. Now is the best time to have this conversation. And there are plans out there. For example, there's the Penny Plan. I filed that particular piece of legislation in the House. Senator Rand Paul has it in the Senate. That would balance the budget in five years and allow the federal government to raise spending by 10% every year thereafter. I'm not even asking for that. Can we do it over ten years? Let's have a negotiation and build some consensus.

CHUCK TODD:

So you want to use the debt ceiling for this moment? You think it's a proper way to use – to force this. Why not the budget process? That's the part of this I don't quite comprehend.

REP. NANCY MACE:

Well, it does – clearly the budget process isn't working because we haven't had a budget in decades. And there is a lot of hysteria around shutting down the government. But, you know, this happened under the previous administration. The government was shut down for 35 days. There was a stalemate. But people still got paid. Accounts still got filled up. And the sky didn't fall. I would like to see the president – and so far, he has said he's unwilling to negotiate with Republicans. That is not how to unify our country. We are very divided right now. We have $31 trillion of debt. The responsible thing to do would be to get to the table with Republicans and negotiate a way. How do we prioritize spending? How do we balance the budget? We're not even asking to do it one year like Bill Clinton did it. Can we do it over ten years, which would be, you know, consensus and be compromised? That's a reasonable conversation to have. It’s not –

CHUCK TODD:

Let me ask you this: Do you have one thing you're ready to put on the table as a spending cut that you think both parties can accept?

REP. NANCY MACE:

Well I think – Well, obviously no cuts to Medicare or Medicaid or Social Security. That's a nonstarter for either side. But otherwise, it's up to – I would lean on the agency heads. Whether it's one penny or five pennies, the Penny Plan does it with $0.05 on the dollar in five years. But we can find some way to negotiate. And I believe we should go to the agency heads and say, "Where can you find cuts? Where can we do this?" and do it over the next decade. That's a very responsible measure that we should all be discussing.

CHUCK TODD:

Congresswoman Nancy Mace, always a lot more to get to, but I'm always limited by the amount of time I have here. Thank you for coming on and sharing your perspective with us. I always appreciate it.

REP. NANCY MACE:

Any time.

CHUCK TODD:

Up next, the classified document story. They were found six days before the midterm elections, but it would be 68 days before the public found out. Our panel is here with the thoughts on the Biden White House strategy of staying silent.

CHUCK TODD:

Welcome back. Panel is here: NBC News Chief White House Correspondent Kristen Welker, also co-anchor of Weekend Today; Peter Baker, the Chief White House Correspondent for The New York Times; Brendan Buck, former advisor for Speakers Ryan and Boehner; and Kimberly Atkins Stohr, the senior opinion writer for The Boston Globe. Well, let me set the scene here a little bit. Kristen, I know you have some good, new reporting on this whole document business. We have the president. He’s passed his two-year mark. He postponed his re-election announcement until after the State of the Union. Clearly, it has to do with the classified document probe. And he tried to address it again on Thursday.

[BEGIN TAPE]

PRES. JOE BIDEN:

Fully cooperating and looking forward to getting this resolved quickly. I think you're going to find there's nothing there. I have no regrets. I'm following what the lawyers have told me they want me to do. It's exactly what we're doing. There's no there there.

[END TAPE]

CHUCK TODD:

No regrets and no there there. We already heard Senator Manchin saying there should've been some regrets. This timing issue – there are a lot of elected Democrats who are a bit frustrated with this White House right now.

KRISTEN WELKER:

To say the least, Chuck. And I am told that there was this drip, drip, drip, and then that additional set of documents that was found last weekend. And so the calculation inside the Biden world was that, "Look, we need to stem the bleeding here. We need to stop this. We need to make sure that there are no additional disclosures." And that's why they invited the Justice Department to do this search inside the president's Delaware home. But you heard his comments there, "There's no there there." I can tell you, in talking to folks inside and outside of the administration, they were concerned about that language before we learned about the search last night. And then I was getting all sorts of messages saying, "This is exactly why statements like that do not age well." They do think that he should be more apologetic and say, "Look, we're going to wait for this play out." Politically speaking, this has been incredibly challenging for this administration, and from a messaging perspective as well.

CHUCK TODD:

Peter, does the "But Trump" paragraph work here for Biden?

PETER BAKER:

Only so far. I mean, it clearly, is very different than Trump. I mean, you outlined it very well already. I mean, Trump was trying to defy a subpoena. He knew what he was doing. He seems defiant even to this day that he owns the documents in effect, and could do whatever he wanted. Biden is saying, "Look, this is an innocent mistake. Certainly didn't mean to have these there." But it only goes so far. And it is the transparency issue. It is the notion that they went for 68 days without telling the public. Yes, they told the Archives. That's what they should do. But they hid it from us before the midterm elections. Their argument is, "Look, as a matter of strategy, it was more important for us to show that we are cooperating with the FBI, not litigate this in public," but they're paying a cost for it, and the cost is that Democrats themselves are frustrated and think that the White House has caused an own goal here.

CHUCK TODD:

Brendan, has this been a boon to Donald Trump? Like, does it actually give him traction again, when I think there were a lot of Republicans hoping this classified document thing would sink him? And they wouldn't say it out loud, but I – they thought this thing was going to sink him, and now they think, "Oh, nope."

BRENDAN BUCK:

Yeah. If there's some action taken against Donald Trump and not against the president, that plays right into everything the president has always said, that there’s two sets of standards. And you can say until you're blue in the face that these situations are different, but voters are going to see that there was consequences for one president and not the other. And clearly, they are different .But look, Donald Trump is not the standard. You can't set the standard by how Donald Trump handled things.

CHUCK TODD:

That's Biden's biggest problem, isn't it?

BRENDAN BUCK:

That is. And Joe Biden himself was attacking Donald Trump for the underlying infraction, not just how whether he didn't give them back, the underlying infraction. Either that matters, or it doesn't.

CHUCK TODD:

Kimberly?

KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:

But this is a missed opportunity here because at a time when the public trust in institutions is at a very, very low point, this was an opportunity for the Biden administration to say, "Look, this is how it's done." As soon as they got the information about these documents, invite the FBI in then. Search everything. Take a look. This was inadvertent. And then you can show how this is very different from saying, you know, "I can unclassify it with my mind," or defying federal authorities and saying, "No, I have a right to keep these things. They're mine." That's very different from how they're handling it, and it was an opportunity to show that to the American public, and they missed it.

CHUCK TODD:

I know this is a classic case of lawyers being lawyers and not wanting to get into the PR game, but it really looks like that keeping a close circle here was damaging.

KRISTEN WELKER:

It has been damaging optically and again from a messaging standpoint. It's important to point out, and Kimberly, you kind of touched on this, that in terms of this search that happened at President Biden's Delaware home, the thinking is it's going to be short term pain with long term gain because they are being transparent in this moment. But Chuck, I've been sitting in the briefings --

CHUCK TODD:

Water torture.

KRISTEN WELKER:

– day after day after day --

CHUCK TODD:

Yeah, speaking of short term gain – drip.

KRISTEN WELKER:

And yes. There's been a drip, drip, drip, and not a whole lot that the press secretary can say, in large part because the White House Counsel's Office wants to be very careful about the investigation. Now, they did start to shift their strategy, the White House Counsel's Office providing a little bit more information. But there are key questions that still remain unanswered, including why it took two months for the world to learn about this.

CHUCK TODD:

Alright, I want to talk about another investigation and another issue of transparency. It's the Supreme Court investigation. I want to put up there their first when they announced that basically an investigation was done. "The leak was no mere misguided attempt at protest. It was a grave assault on the judicial process. And following up on all available leads, the Marshal’s team performed additional forensic analysis and conducted multiple follow-up interviews of certain employees. But the team has to date been unable to identify a person responsible by a preponderance of the evidence." Kimberly, "preponderance of the evidence" was a phrase of doing a lot of work in there. And to me, including it seemed to be a yellow flag.

KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:

Well, listen. I don't know. It's a very legal term that we would use to judge a lot of other things. I think the big takeaway from this is that the Supreme Court as an institution has been this insular, insulated institution for so many years and that even the Marshal tasked to try to carry out this investigation worked against that fact. There were no real rules about how to handle decisions before they were publicly released. Eighty-two people had a hold of this draft opinion. And you had it – it was even unclear in the initial report whether they even spoke to the justices because they are –

CHUCK TODD:

Well --

KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:

– you cover that.

CHUCK TODD:

– that firestorm left and right, and they put out a new statement saying, "Oh no, we talked to them too."

KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:

But in that institution, they are almost deified in a way that it seemed like doing so, or even admitting that you might have done so, might have seemed like doing something wrong. It just shows all the ways that -- talk about a lack of transparency – there’s few places less transparent than the Supreme Court.

CHUCK TODD:

Brendan, there was nothing illegal about the act, so there was only so much the Marshal can do. That was another problem here.

BRENDAN BUCK:

I look at all this and it just feels like the Supreme Court is starting to be like all the rest of our politics.

CHUCK TODD:

Welcome to the club, guys.

BRENDAN BUCK:

Yeah. Stuff leaks. I mean, it used to be that the Supreme Court, you know, was read. It wasn't heard. It certainly wasn't seen. But now you can go to your average progressive, and they probably have a bobble head doll of Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Like, it's just so political in every way now, it's just starting to feel like it's no longer this thing that you can hold aside as, you know, the high integrity institution.

CHUCK TODD:

The black robes – they don't wear black robes anymore, Peter Baker. They're red robes and blue robes.

PETER BAKER:

Yeah. No, that’s right because we do refer to them now as – in fact, for the first time really in the last few years, you see Republican-appointed justices being consistently conservative and Democratic-appointed justices being consistently liberal. In the old days, it was much more of a mix, right? Some Republicans would be more liberal and some Democrats would be more conservative. Now it feels like, you know, you're looking at it as R this and D that. And it's just a very different way of looking at the Supreme Court.

KRISTEN WELKER:

I do think that one of the key takeaways is that, because this was an internal investigation, it was not subject to the rigors of an FBI investigation. Could they have made the argument that a government document was seized? And so --

CHUCK TODD:

Well, maybe Congress will say that –

KRISTEN WELKER:

– that's the frustration. I think.

CHUCK TODD:

– that draft Supreme Court rulings are classified until they’re presented to the public –

KRISTEN WELKER:

Well--

CHUCK TODD:

Because then the FBI would've been involved.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Exactly. But I do think the takeaway, and we were kind of getting to this, is that what needs to change? There needs to be more security around this. Fewer people may need to be read in. Listen, these people admitted to telling their spouses about the draft document. That's problematic.

CHUCK TODD:

Actually though, they all have one thing in common. We don't think they're transparent.

KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:

Right.

CHUCK TODD:

The Court, the presidency, the Congress, you name it, and guess what and guess what? Zero trust.

KRISTEN WELKER:

That's the trust deficit.

CHUCK TODD:

You've got to earn trust back. When we come back, who is running America's largest city? One party is now noticeably absent from the big cities.

CHUCK TODD:

We are back. Data Download time. The U.S. Conference of Mayors was here in Washington this week for their annual meeting, and one group was noticeably absent among the biggest players: Republicans. Let me show you. These are the ten most populated cities in America. Nine of the ten have elected Democrats as mayors, and the tenth—San Antonio—doesn't elect mayors by party, but I can tell you that mayor is decidedly progressive. So essentially nobody right of center is a mayor of a top ten city. That's actually quite a change from 2000. At the turn of the century, four of the top ten—New York, Phoenix, San Diego, L.A.—all had Republican mayors. A huge change. And overall in the 25 most populous cities, right now just three have Republican mayors: Oklahoma City, Jacksonville, and Fort Worth, Texas. That is it. In 2000, of course, that number out of 25 was just seven. So less than half of what it was in 2000. Look, these 25 major cities, they total 38 million citizens in those cities. That accounts for 12% of the overall U.S. population. And in fact, there are more people in these 25 cities than there are in 21 states. So when you talk about political power, yes, governors have power, but the mayors also are political juggernauts themselves, particularly on the Democratic side of the aisle. Meanwhile, this week marks 25 years since news broke that President Bill Clinton had an extramarital affair with a young White House intern. It's a scandal that forever transformed Washington's politics, the media, and the American public. Monica Lewinsky's lawyer joined this program to discuss the president's future just after the story broke.

[BEGIN TAPE]

TIM RUSSERT:

Do you believe the president can survive this crisis?

WILLIAM GINSBURG:

I don't know. I don't want to call myself a country lawyer, but I certainly am not a Beltway lawyer and I'm not a political pundit.

TIM RUSSERT:

Does it influence you, affect you in any way to know that the fate of the country, the fate of Bill Clinton, is in effect in your hands and in Monica Lewinsky's hands?

WILLIAM GINSBURG:

In addition to the fact that I don't believe that the government of the United States is in Monica Lewinsky's hands or in my hands, short of that, you bet you it scares me. It scares me that my country could be in this kind of a crisis. I'm not political, but I am a citizen of this country and I do respect the presidency.

[END TAPE]

CHUCK TODD:

When we come back, just how much did the Lewinsky scandal change the course of our political history? Trust me; we are still living with the consequences today. Our panel is next to discuss.

CHUCK TODD:

Welcome back. This week marks the 25th anniversary of an event that arguably launched our current moment in our politics, when Matt Drudge on the internet broke the news that Newsweek was sitting on a story about former President Bill Clinton having an affair with a young White House intern named Monica Lewinsky. So, here's what happened next: a presidential lie, an investigation, disappointing Republican midterm, impeachment, Senate acquittal, round-the-clock media coverage and speculation, and the takeoff of a more partisan cable TV news environment. It remains one of the more significant forks in the road in modern political history, and it turns out we're perhaps still living in that moment. Peter Baker, you and I were both, sort of, younger, very much reporters in this moment. And I think at the time we were all blown away. I guess looking back last week, it just sort of hit me, "My god, we're still stuck in this loop."

PETER BAKER:

Yeah. We are stuck in this loop. That's exactly right, I was just remembering. I remember walking home at night, at 2:00 in the morning after we published the first story on this in the Washington Post at the time, thinking, "Oh my god. What have we done? What have we unleashed here?” This is an extraordinary story. The president of the United States, sex in the White House, investigation of lying under oath. But to your point, I think it changed our politics. It wasn't just a one-off sex scandal, which we've had a number in our history. It was a moment when we made our politics more tribal, in which we decided we were going to make any investigation, any scandal about us versus them. And that's what we've seen time and time again ever since. We saw it with Trump. We've seen it with other presidents. And I think that we redefined our ideologies to suit which side are we on.

CHUCK TODD:

You know, before 1998 we had had one impeachment in this country. Since that time, Brendan Buck, we've had three. I mean you just can’t– we live in this moment constantly and the way Democrats rallied around Bill Clinton, we saw Republicans rally around Donald Trump. And you can't help but ask yourself: "Without Clinton, does Trump ever happen?"

BRENDAN BUCK:

Yeah. I think the tribalism is the right point. It's, "While I don't like what you did, you're my guy and I would never give the other side a win." And I think that's how everything is viewed. It's much less, "What my team is for," as being against what the other team is. It turned politics into a soap opera. And that's what we still have today. Most – I won't say "most" – a lot of politicians now are much more entertainers in their own minds than they are public servants. And it corrodes our politics, and there are so many outlets for it. Of course, the media, there are so many more platforms for them to play the role and to entertain, and it leads us to where we are now.

CHUCK TODD:

No, you definitely saw the partisanship of cable exploded. The idea that cable news is a prime time destination didn't exist until Monica. But, Kimberly, we also know the fact that this was an incredibly misogynist thing that happened. This was a– you know, when we talk about Me Too-- and I've had younger staff. They say when they learn the history of it, they don't understand why there was no discussion of the power dynamic. And it's like, that's how immature our debate was back then.

KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:

Yeah. Two decades before Me Too. You know, over the years, I've had discussions with people who have said their viewpoint about Monica Lewinsky then has changed so profoundly than it is now. That someone– this 22-year-old intern, you think about the kids that you see walking around--

CHUCK TODD:

Twenty-two-year-old intern. We all have 22-year-olds walking around--

KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:

Right.

CHUCK TODD:

--our offices.

KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:

And the attacks that were done. I mean, just, I couldn't imagine being a part of that. She seems to have come out of that with a lot of grace and respect now in retrospect, but it really shows the difference in how up until then—aside from Clarence Thomas—there wasn't a sex scandal that was this public. Now, we treat things very differently.

CHUCK TODD:

Do we though?

KRISTEN WELKER:

Well, and--

KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:

No. Not differently enough. But at least there is that change.

KRISTEN WELKER:

I do think that that is one of the biggest impacts, this cultural shift. And Monica Lewinsky herself describes herself as patient zero for internet shaming. And she has talked about being bullied and what that experience was like. And the way that she was treated by this country, by the world has not aged well. And in many ways, it is the seeds of the Me Too movement. And I think it's been fascinating to watch her reclaim her story. And as you say, Kimberly, so many people have changed their perspectives about how they view that moment, how they viewed her and how they treated her.

CHUCK TODD:

Peter, the question I wonder: It's going to take some outside event to shift us to another fork in the road and get out of this doom loop we're in, but I don't know what that looks like.

PETER BAKER:

I don't know what that looks like. I mean, we had 9/11, and we kind of changed--

CHUCK TODD:

Temporary respite.

PETER BAKER:

--our politics for about a year or so, right? And that didn't make a permanent difference. And I don't know what will happen now that will be the equivalent of that. I mean, we have these big crises. We have these big issues. We have the debt ceiling issue. We have a crisis of our democracy. We have the crisis of the war in Ukraine. So many crises, and we can't come together on things.

CHUCK TODD:

Everything is worse since 1998 in this moment. That's the bottom line, sadly. Before we go, sign up for our free daily newsletter, First Read. You'll get the best analysis, polling, and political news every morning: wisdom before it becomes conventional. Scan the QR code on screen or go to NBCNews.com/FirstRead. That's all we have for today. Thanks for watching. We'll be back next week; because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.