CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday, the outsider. North Dakota’s Governor Doug Burgum is outspending all his Republican presidential rivals after entering the race just four weeks ago.
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
I believe that the president of the United States has got a defined set of things they’re supposed to work on and it’s not every culture war topic.
CHUCK TODD:
Can this little-known former software executive break through and win over Republican primary voters?
CHUCK TODD:
Would you ever do business with Donald Trump?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
I don’t think so.
CHUCK TODD:
Why?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
I just think that it’s important that you’re judged by the company you keep.
CHUCK TODD:
My exclusive interview from Fargo. Plus, Biden’s economy.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Bidenomics is just another way of saying restoring the American dream.
CHUCK TODD:
President Biden crafts his campaign economic message.
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
Bidenomics means you pay more for everything in life.
SEN. TIM SCOTT:
I can’t think of anything more unAmerican than what we’re seeing in Biden’s economy.
CHUCK TODD:
Does Biden even need an economic message to win in 2024 or will issues like abortion matter more? I’ll ask New Jersey’s Democratic Governor Phil Murphy. And, civilian risk. The U.S. plans to send cluster munitions to Ukraine despite concerns they could kill civilians. Why is a weapon banned by over 100 countries the best option now for Ukraine?
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
It was a very difficult decision on my part. The Ukrainians are running out of ammunition.
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me for insight and analysis are NBC News Senior Capitol Hill Correspondent Garrett Haake, Amna Nawaz, co-anchor of PBS NewsHour, Republican strategist Brendan Buck and former Democratic Senator Claire McCaskill. Welcome to Sunday. It’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
And a good Sunday morning to all of you out there. With the Iowa caucuses just six month – months away, mark your calendars for January 15th officially by the way, the two parties are debating what the coming campaign is going to be about: the intensifying culture wars or a referendum on the economy. President Biden is hoping to claim credit for what is an improving economy. He’s ramping up a messaging tour focused on the economic agenda that he is embracing and calling "Bidenomics." Inflation has dropped for 11 straight months, from a high of 9.1% in June of last year to 4% this May. Unemployment stands at 3.6%, that is near 50-year low. And 13 million jobs have been added since Biden took office. We’ve completely recovered from the pandemic drop. But the American public is not feeling it. Just 34% of Americans approve of Biden's handling of the economy in a recent AP poll that was released at the end of June. And only 20% of voters believe the nation is on the right track though voters have not felt good about the direction of the country for over a decade. And Biden is trying to persuade voters that the economy is better than they think it is.
[START TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Guess what? Bidenomics is working. I'm not here to declare victory on the economy. I'm here to say we have a plan that is turning things around quickly. It's about growing the economy from the middle out and the bottom up. Today's job shows – jobs report I think shows Bidenomics is working.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Now this is actually a familiar pivot for incumbent Democratic presidents in the last 30 years both Bill Clinton and Barack Obama had to make the case their economics – economic policies were working to a skeptical public as they were vying for a second term. And it's a necessary pivot for the Biden campaign but ultimately it may be culture war issues like abortion that Democrats end up rallying around especially as the Republican party continues to focus even more time on cultural issues.
[START TAPE]
FMR. GOV. NIKKI HALEY:
School bureaucrats do not know better than parents. We've got to go and defeat them from the ground up and let them know that we are not going to have this indoctrination in there.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
We are going to end men joining women's teams.
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
Identifying Donald Trump as really being a pioneer in injecting gender ideology into the mainstream where he was having men compete against women in his beauty pageants.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
And in fact Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, who’s trailing Donald Trump by 30 points in many national primary matchups, continued to try to run to the right of Trump on these social issues like abortion and LGBTQ rights. In fact this week, DeSantis's rapid response team reposted a video on Twitter, attacking Trump for formerly expressing support for the LGBTQ community. The video was criticized even by Republicans and it has been taken down. Now one Republican candidate, who is already outspending all of his rivals right now on advertising in Iowa and New Hampshire, is betting there is a lane for a Republican candidate that is solely focused on the economy and national security, rather than on what he calls "anti-wokeness." On Friday, I traveled to Fargo, North Dakota and I sat down with North Dakota Governor Doug Burgum. He’s a 66-year-old former software executive and two-term governor. And yes he is self funding much of his presidential campaign right now. In April, Burgum signed a law that did ban abortion at six weeks and he has signed eight bills into law that have been pushed by his conservative legislature that limits the rights of transgender North Dakotans. But at the same time, he is arguing that Republicans will do better in 2024 if they focus solely on pocket-book issues.
CHUCK TODD:
Governor Burgum, welcome to Meet the Press.
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Chuck, great to be here and special gratitude from all of us in North Dakota for you and your team traveling all the way to Fargo.
CHUCK TODD:
We – we love being here. So let me start. Every write up of your candidacy and the - and the focus that you put on your presidential – on the issues you want to focus on, and what you say is that what the silent majority cares about, every analyst seems to end their analysis of your campaign with, "Boy, this is a campaign that would make a lot more sense in the 1990s or in the Mitt Romney era of the Republican Party." What say you to that?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Well, first of all I would describe them not as silent but exhausted. There's a broad spectrum of Americans that are really frustrated with the discourse that's happening at the edge. And part of the reason they're frustrated is because there aren't candidates, there aren't choices on the ballot, to talk about the things that matter to them. And when the First Lady and I are in New Hampshire and Iowa or here in North Dakota where we've been leading the last six and a half years, the things that people are concerned about, price of food on the table, the price of gas at the pump. You know, and you wouldn't think that in North Dakota that national security would be front of mind, but whether it's Chinese spy balloons, whether it's the price of soybeans and tariffs, or whether it's China building spy bases. These three things, the economy, energy policy, and national security, are things that people really care about and they touch every American. And they don't just touch Republicans. They touch independents, they touch Democrats. If we can unleash the best of America, if we can get our economy sprinting instead of crawling, that lifts the boat for everybody. We know that. That's always been. And when – we are in a cold war in China, we just won't admit it. But the way you work your way through a cold war is you win it economically.
CHUCK TODD:
Your message makes a lot of sense to the middle of the electorate, but you're having to win a Republican nomination first. And you have firsthand experience. You have a legislature that is not focused on the issues you're focused on, but they're focused on all these cultural issues that the primary electorate seems to be focused on. So, how do you – how do you talk the Republican primary voters into your vision?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Well, I think we know a little bit about winning Republican primaries because we've won two here in North Dakota, in a state that is –
CHUCK TODD:
It's an open primary state.
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
You’ve had Independents. You can have – I mean, in most of these Republican primary contests, Independents, other than New Hampshire, Independents and Democrats don't get to participate.
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
And New Hampshire is a very important state. So it is an opportunity here, again, for this exhausted majority to say look, there's so many people in our country that don't want a rerun at the presidential race of what we had in 2020. It's not up to the pundits, it's up to the voters –
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you this. How do you explain Donald Trump's hold on the GOP?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Well, I would leave that, there's a whole industry that talks incessantly, nonstop about these kinds of questions. And our –
CHUCK TODD:
But you're running to lead this party. And in order for you to become the leader of this party you've got to understand why the current leader has this hold on – on constituents that you want to lead. What's your diagnosis?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Well, here in North Dakota people that voted for Donald Trump also voted for us. And so we know a lot about Donald Trump voters. But we also know that Republican primary voters, they want to win in 2024. And how we're going to win is we will present ourselves, when we get to next January and next February when the voting starts, is that we have the best chance of beating Joe Biden.
CHUCK TODD:
How much should character count when it comes to running for office?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
It should count enormously, particularly when you're talking about the jobs of being a governor or being a president. Because the executive branch, different from the other branches, but specifically legislative. If you're a legislator you put on your jersey, you fight for your side, you vote oftentimes along party lines. You – if you don't vote with the party, you vote at your peril. The president of the United States, as this balancing third branch, is the one that's supposed to unite people. It's supposed to bring people together. It's supposed to paint a vision about a powerful, positive future. And somehow we've gone astray on that, where the presidency has also become hyper-partisan, no matter which party is in office.
CHUCK TODD:
You ever lied in politics?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
No.
CHUCK TODD:
That you know of? You don't believe you've ever lied?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
No.
CHUCK TODD:
You'll be fact-checked on that I'm sure throughout the campaign –
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
And I'm sure we will. But I –
CHUCK TODD:
You feel like you've always told the truth, as you understood it.
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Absolutely. That's how I was raised and that's how I've gone forward.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think Donald Trump's elevation to the presidency is proof that character is counted?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Well, I grew up in a town of 300 people, Arthur, North Dakota. In a town like that, in the business that my grandparents started was the grain elevator business, and the grain elevator business, farmers bring you grain. Every truck they bring, you take a sample. And in that sample, the way you take that sample, you can have is it going to be 99% wheat and 1% chaff? Or is it going to be 95% wheat and 5% chaff?
CHUCK TODD:
Money in the pocket.
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Every – every transaction, you build trust on every transaction. And when I was about six years old, my dad walked me up in the driveway of the elevator and he said, "This is how we take the cleanest possible sample. This is how we get the highest amount of wheat and the least amount of chaff when we take that sample. Because if we don't, this family is going to haul their grain six miles down the road to the other community."
CHUCK TODD:
Would you ever do business with Donald Trump?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
I – I don't think so.
CHUCK TODD:
Why?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
I just think that it's important that you're judged by the company you keep, and I –
CHUCK TODD:
You just wouldn't do business with him.
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
No, I wouldn't.
CHUCK TODD:
I feel like you've signed a lot of bills that your legislature's put on your desk that you're not crazy about, but you've signed them anyway because you've made the argument, "They can override my veto." And on some things you do choose to stand up and veto. And I guess I'm trying to figure out, and we'll get into some details, what's your line of when you decide, "Well, I'm going to issue this veto. They're going to override me, but I want to make a statement." Versus, "I don't like this bill, they're going to override me, so I'm going to let it go."
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Well, every governor has got to deal with the legislature they're dealt with. In North Dakota we've got legislature that's 90-10, 90% Republican, 10% the other party. And some in the other party feel the same way the Republicans do. So it's a little bit like a uni-party in North Dakota.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you wish it were more politically diverse?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Well, I think that we want to make sure that all voices are heard. I think every state legislature is really slanted. You know, ours is like 80% men, 20% women. I think you might have different outcomes across all state legislatures –
CHUCK TODD:
Interesting.
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
– if you had more women involved, if we had more youth, the age. People say, "Hey, I'm young and I'm building a family. I can't do it." So the average age in North Dakota is 35. The average age in the legislature is older. North Dakota's 50-50 men and women, that's not our legislature. But that's the same across our whole country.
CHUCK TODD:
So let's take abortion, the six week ban. A voter wants to know what your position is on abortion. I understand the law doesn't sound like this is the law you would've designed, but it's the law you signed. So, what is your position on abortion?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Well, my position is that I support the Dobbs decision, and this is the decision that should be left to the states. And what's going to pass in North Dakota is not ever going to pass in California and New York, and wouldn't even pass in the state of Minnesota. I – that's why I'm on the record saying that I would not sign a federal abortion ban.
CHUCK TODD:
You would not sign any federal legislation at all, whether it set the line at 24 weeks or six weeks?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
No, I wouldn't, because it should be left to the states. Now, I think people can say Republicans are extreme, I personally think that having a late term abortion, having an abortion one day before a child is born, that's abhorrent to me. Some states allow that. I think that's extreme. But states get to decide where they want to fit on that spectrum. The states –
CHUCK TODD:
Where are you on that?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
The states created the federal government, not the other way around.
CHUCK TODD:
I understand. Where are you on that?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Where I'm at is I believe in states' rights, and I believe that the president of the United States has got a defined set of things they're supposed to work on, and it's not every culture war topic. These are things that are left to the state. As president, things that you're supposed to focus on, things like the economy, like energy policy, which is completely tied to national security, and part of national security is the border. And these are things that the president right now, President Biden, has completely abdicated his responsibility on. Every state’s become a border state, 110,000 overdose deaths in this country last year, again. That’s – and that's a statistic, but that's 330 a day.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you this. You're a limited government guy.
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Uh-huh.
CHUCK TODD:
But you're legislating science in this case. Are you comfortable with that? You're legislating when a doctor can get involved and when somebody can get a medical intervention on their own – on their own decision. Are you comfortable with the government setting those limits?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Well, I'm comfortable with those battles happening at the state level because if people don't like them they've got an opportunity to get engaged and try to change that. At the federal level it's not anything I'm going to be pushing because I believe in freedom and liberty. And I believe that if we believe that as a party then we have to think long and hard about if we believe in freedom and liberty, then why are we trying to restrict certain things as a party? We should be the freedom and liberty party and we should believe in the states' rights party. And you have to have some consistency around that.
CHUCK TODD:
So you're not going to sign any abortion bills, you're not going to sign any transgender bills, you’re just not getting – you're just going to stay out of every cultural issue if you get elected president?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Any time that – when I was in private sector and I had the chance to start from the tiniest startup, less than ten people, build that into a 2,000 person company, I then had an opportunity to work at large, global companies. Anytime you're the CEO, if you're spending time on something that can be done, you know, in a sales office out on the front lines dealing with customers, you're not doing your job. You've got to be looking to the future. We need a president that's focused on the challenges that we're being faced as a nation, not – not a president that's going to decide whether a book is in the right section or not in a library in a small town somewhere in America. That is a – and that's part of what is going wrong now. The reason why we've got issues with our economy, with our energy policy, with national security that are just raff, it is because we are somehow, through culturally, media, whatever, trapping the presidency or expecting them to weigh in on every single thing. It's not – it’s not the place that a CEO should be spending their time. It's definitely not the place where the president should be spending their time.
CHUCK TODD:
How would you select the Supreme Court nominee? Would you have any litmus tests?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
I have had an incredible opportunity as governor to appoint judges, somehow through the fate of Baby Boomers retiring. I'm the 33rd governor of North Dakota. I just yesterday was working through the decision process for my 18th judge appointment. Two of those have been North Dakota Supreme Court, the others, district judges. And we don't have litmus tests. We try to find the people that are most qualified to do the job, and I think that, again, if there is any kind of litmus test, it's are they going to follow the Constitution and follow the law, and not legislate from the bench?
CHUCK TODD:
Do you care what the Federalist Society thinks of a nominee? Are you going to – Donald Trump outsourced all of his Supreme Court nominees to the Federalist Society. If they didn't have their stamp of approval, was that important to you?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Like I said, I have interviewed thousands and thousands of people in my life for jobs. I think that the process of selecting people for a job also depends on the team as well as the individual. And this is the – you, know, who wins the Super Bowl? People that win the Super Bowl are people that have a – the right team on the field. And if that opportunity comes forward, that's one of the biggest responsibilities of the president. But I think my track record of picking people of high character, high integrity. Every company I've ever been involved with, I've been surrounded by people of exceptional talent, exceptional commitment, exceptional character. I don't think that's going to change. And whether it's in the administration, whether it's Cabinet leaders, or whether it's appointing federal judges at any level, that's not going to change.
CHUCK TODD:
Is there one thing President Biden has done that you think's been a good thing?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Well, I'm struggling there because, again, as a governor, what I've seen in terms of the overreach of the federal government is – and my heart goes out, I mean we –
CHUCK TODD:
I thought you might say the infrastructure bill.
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:Well –
CHUCK TODD:
Since there was support in your own state for it.
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Well, I mean, and I can – Okay –
CHUCK TODD:
But I don't know whether you ascribe that to him. It doesn't sound like you do --
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
No, but initially, I'm like, "Hey, as a person that's spent time in software, and we had a tremendous dependence on foreign manufacturers for chips, the CHIPS Act started out like a great idea.” And as Governor, I'd say, "Hey, I never comment on a bill until it's on my desk in its final form." And people said, "Wow, we're going to try to get onshoring for critical aspects of what we need, for communications, for transportation, for military equipment." That made a bunch of sense. Well, then you pile a bunch of ideology on top of that and say, "Yeah, you can get these dollars to help onshore here. But you've got to use union. You've got to do this. You've got to do that." And you pile your ideology on.
CHUCK TODD:
Two more policy questions. Xi. We talked about China a little bit. Is he a dictator?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Absolutely.
CHUCK TODD:
So you agree with President Biden on that one? He called him a dictator, and China got offended by this. How would you have handled that moment?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Well, I'd call him a brutal dictator. I mean look at the rights record that they have. So that’s a –
CHUCK TODD:
And where do you put Vladimir Putin?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
I think he's running a large criminal organization. And I think we're seeing the tip of that with the Wagner Group. I mean, it's like we can't think of Russia today under Putin like a country.
CHUCK TODD:
You see it almost more as like a mob, in the way --
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Oh, absolutely.
CHUCK TODD:
– a criminal syndicate works?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
The Wagner Group was operating 65 shell companies all over the world. They controlled gold mines in Central African Republic. When they were down helping out in Syria, there's contracts where they took over 25% of the oil production in Syria. That's – that's a large criminal organization.
CHUCK TODD:
Right. So in a President Burgum administration, does Ukraine support change?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Well, we have to win the war in Ukraine.
CHUCK TODD:
Period?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Period. We have to do that. And it's unfortunate that we're even in this spot. I’ve said many times, before I even announced, we wouldn’t be in this spot if we hadn’t allowed our allies, and think about all the Americans. We talked earlier. We've both been to Normandy. Think about all the Americans that died fighting in World War II, and then we adopted a policy where we're trying to shut down the U.S. energy policy, shut down the U.S. energy industry so that all of Western Europe could be dependent on Russia for their oil and gas. That’s what allowed, that’s what gave him the –
CHUCK TODD:
That's quite the dotted line. You think our shutting down our energy industry pushed Europe towards Russia –
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Absolutely. Absolutely. They were completely --
CHUCK TODD:
– and put us in this situation?
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
– dependent on Russian oil and gas. I mean, German manufacturing is off 25% now.
CHUCK TODD:
They made a choice to be dependent on Russia. I mean, the idea that they had no choice – they made a choice, Germany did.
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Right. But we had, up until just recently, we had an oil export ban. We've still got the Jones Act. We have a bunch of red tape and regulation that's completely outdated. If you care about the environment, you should want every drop of energy produced in the United States. We produce it cleaner, safer than anyone else.
CHUCK TODD:
Governor Burgum, I have more questions, but I don't have more time. Thanks for your time.
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
Chuck, thank you for being here.
CHUCK TODD:
As you might expect, there is a lot more to that interview. You can see the entire unedited version of that interview with Governor Doug Burgum right now at MeetthePress.com. You can either see it or listen to it. When we come back, President Biden makes his sales pitch on the economy. Is Bidenomics a winning message and strategy? I'll ask New Jersey's Democratic Governor Phil Murphy next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. President Biden, saddled by questions about his age and his ability to do the job for another four years, has been sharpening his economic message, and he's arguing that the economy is improving; voters just don't realize it. As inflation remains high and voters disapprove of the president's performance on the economy, the Biden campaign hopes that this strong employment picture and focus on the middle class could break through this voter pessimism about the direction of the country. So joining me now is Democratic Governor Phil Murphy of New Jersey. He was, for what it's worth, once considered a potential presidential candidate himself had Biden decided not to seek a second term. Murphy, of course, is now a member of the Biden-Harris campaign national advisory board, so there's no more talk of that. Governor Murphy, welcome back to Meet the Press.
GOV. PHIL MURPHY:
Greetings from the Jersey Shore, Chuck. Great to be with you.
CHUCK TODD:
Appreciate that. Let me start with this idea of Bidenomics. As you know, the public doesn't believe that this administration is doing well on the economy. Obviously, you believe differently. Why do you think voters don't buy into Bidenomics yet?
GOV. PHIL MURPHY:
Yeah, I think there's a lead/lag factor here, Chuck. First of all, the facts speak for themselves: thirteen million jobs created, I think unemployment below 4% for the longest stretch in 50 years. It's a middle class, middle out, bottom up approach. I look back at 40 years ago this summer, even the Great Communicator himself, Ronald Reagan, was struggling to get the message through that the economy had already begun its recovery in the previous year. Ultimately, he went on to a landslide victory the next year. I'm not sure it's going to it's a landslide, but the facts are on the side of the president and his administration. And I think eventually that seeps into the general sense of how the economy is.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think this pessimism, though, is driven by the fact that the most likely voters, the people that are paying the most attention – you know, nearly 20% of our electorate are retirees, right? And so the cost of living increases impact them more than those that are currently working. Not to say this doesn't impact everybody, but in some ways, a retiree is more sensitive to inflation – inflationary issues than somebody in the working world. And, as you know, they're the most likely voter. How do you bridge that divide?
GOV. PHIL MURPHY:
Yeah that’s – I think your premise is exactly right. In fact, we just signed a budget with a massive property tax relief explicitly for seniors. Tomorrow, I'm going to sign a bunch of bills capping prescription drug prices for seniors again. But the facts – the facts I think, in the Biden administration also speak to the reality that inflation is here, there's no question. But the United States over the past year is the leading deflationary country in the developed world. So I would say help is on the way, and there's an enormous focus, I know by the president and his team, on seniors and affordability, as there is here in Jersey.
CHUCK TODD:
But as you know, it looks like the stubborn inflation numbers mean we're going to have more interest rate hikes. And before you were in public service, you were in the finance world. You know what this means. A rise in interest rates is going to mean it's harder to get a car loan, harder to get a – that is not how you create the conditions to convince people the economy is humming.
GOV. PHIL MURPHY:
Yeah, although I have to say, I'm not sure that the Federal Reserve has much choice. There's no question, you raise interest rates another 25 or 50 basis points, there's short-term pain. You're absolutely right. But that pain is very small as compared to if inflation is allowed to reemerge and stay with us for many years. Sadly, that's tough medicine. But you know, we're coming out of a pandemic, all of the extraordinary, unique realities associated with that. At a certain point in that respect, you may have no choice.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you about where we're coming in the general election. If this is a referendum, do you think you can – the Democrats can avoid this being a referendum on Joe Biden's presidency, or do you think that's a good thing if it's a referendum on Joe Biden's presidency?
GOV. PHIL MURPHY:
Well, I certainly think it's a good thing if it's based on the track record, which is outstanding. We've talked about the economy. I think that story only gets better. His foreign policy, particularly leading the coalition against this brutal war of aggression by Russia, has been a master class. Sadly, I think folks vote more – they vote less on that front, but it's a reality. Those are two very powerful engines. And I think when the facts are on your side, I'd rather be playing that hand than a hand that doesn't have the facts on their side and is making a lot of noise.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you believe that Donald Trump presents the best contrast for Joe Biden's reelection or are there other candidates that you think would be easier for Joe Biden to face?
GOV. PHIL MURPHY:
I don’t know that – I think this, Chuck. I believe a strong economy and a powerful foreign policy hand, and the president has exhibited both, I think that's a winning hand no matter who they're up against. I'm not suggesting it's a runaway election like it was in 1984, but if you've got those two engines on your side, that to me is a winning hand no matter who you're up against.
CHUCK TODD:
A couple of quick political stories. On the Supreme Court, do you think it's time for Democrats to embrace this idea of changing how the court works, adding justices, term limits? Or do you try to – try to deal with the system that you have rather than change the system?
GOV. PHIL MURPHY:
Yeah, as painful as this radical court has been, taking away rights and freedoms, I'm in the camp that you – you play within the rules. And I have to say, that's a tough conclusion given the extremity of whether it's LGBTQ decisions, abortion, student loans, affirmative action – one gut punch after another. I think you still play within the rules.
CHUCK TODD:
The largest ever transportation grant from the federal government is coming to the Tri-State area: $7 billion for this second tunnel, the most trafficked area in the country. This was a new tunnel for trains that was on the books to start being built in 2009. The project began. Chris Christie, your predecessor, killed it, decided to say no to this. Is this – does this decision reaffirm Governor Christie's decision at the time, or is this going to now cost New Jersey taxpayers more?
GOV. PHIL MURPHY:
So listen, the biggest policy mistake of the past 50 years in New Jersey was his decision to cancel the predecessor to this project. This is a game changer, and this is overwhelmingly supported by federal money. The tunnels that exist were built in 1910. They've been damaged severely over the years. This is two new rail tunnels under the Hudson River. It's a game-changer for New Jersey commuters. But tragically, the project that was canceled by my predecessor would've been opened five years ago. So we're going to get it, but it's sadly later than it should've been.
CHUCK TODD:
And does it cost more money now?
GOV. PHIL MURPHY:
Oh, it definitely costs more money. But we have no choice. This is the most congested, this is – 20% of the American economy rides on these rails, and thousands of commuters from New Jersey go into New York every day. We have no choice.
CHUCK TODD:
Governor Phil Murphy, Democrat of New Jersey. Appreciate you coming on and spending your Sunday morning with us. Thank you, sir.
GOV. PHIL MURPHY:
Thank you, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
The Supreme Court ruling banning affirmative action in college admissions late last month reversed a precedent that had shaped academia for decades. In my very first sit-down with Donald Trump back in 2015, I asked Mr. Trump for his take on his policy. His answer might surprise you. Take a listen.
[START TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Affirmative action. Should we keep it? Yes or no?
DONALD TRUMP:
I'm fine with affirmative action.
CHUCK TODD:
Should it be expanded or should it be limited?
DONALD TRUMP:
Well, you know, you have to also go free market, you have to go capability, you have to do a lot of things. But I'm fine with affirmative action. We've lived with it for a long time, and I've lived with it for a long time. And I've had great relationships with lots of people, so I'm fine with it.
CHUCK TODD:
Should private companies be able to fire people because they're gay?
DONALD TRUMP:
Well, it's a big discussion, and I guess it's getting a lot of negative rulings right now, that whole thing. And I'm willing to with what the courts are saying.
CHUCK TODD:
And that is you don't think private companies should be able to do that?
DONALD TRUMP:
I don't think it should be a reason, no. I don't think it should be a reason.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
That's nearly eight years ago. When we come back, why Republicans are embracing the culture wars over the economy on the campaign trail. Panel is next.
[START TAPE]
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
I believe in states' rights, and I believe that the president of the United States has got a defined set of things they're supposed to work on, and it's not every culture war topic.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Panel is here: Amna Nawaz, co-anchor of PBS NewsHour; our NBC News Senior Capitol Hill correspondent, Garrett Haake; Brendan Buck, a former adviser to House Speakers Paul Ryan and John Boehner; and former Democratic Senator Claire McCaskill, who is here before two-a-days begin for Pat Mahomes.
CLAIRE McCASKILL:
There you go.
CHUCK TODD:
It's good to see you. Let me start with you, Brendan Buck, because you heard what Governor Burgum said. Now, let me play this exchange between Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis.
[START TAPE]
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
DeSanctus, as I call him, the abbreviation, is a globalist sellout and Paul Ryan and Karl Rove acolyte who's in the pocket of Wall Street donors at the Club for No Growth.
GOV. RON DESANTIS:
Donald Trump has spent over $20 million attacking me. That's more than he spent supporting Republican candidates in last year's midterm elections.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
So, Doug Burgum's message just feels like, is that a “fish out of water” messaging compared to what DeSantis and Trump have decided to do?
BRENDAN BUCK:
Well, I've got to say, DeSantis' answer there was a bit of the most Washington answer I've ever heard, talking about fundraising and attacks. But in the bigger picture, yes, Trump and DeSantis are fighting the culture war, and I think that's what Republican voters want right now. I talk to a lot of Republicans who are like, "How do we break out of this cycle? What do we do? We need to put out a ten-point plan to remind people what we're for." And that's really answering a question that nobody's asking. Republican voters don't care about your policy right now. They want to know that you're a fighter. They want to know you're fighting for them. They want to know that you see that the world – the threat that they see coming from Washington, and you're going to stand there with them.
CHUCK TODD:
Garrett, you know, your first job for us here at NBC was to cover Mitt Romney.
GARRETT HAAKE:
That's right.
CHUCK TODD:
And I felt like I was talking to his younger brother --
GARRETT HAAKE:
Uh-huh.
CHUCK TODD:
– there a little bit. He even has a little of the salt and pepper feel to him.
GARRETT HAAKE:
He could be a sixth Romney son.
CHUCK TODD:
Exactly. And I don't say that as a criticism –
GARRETT HAAKE:
No.
CHUCK TODD:
– you know? But even Mitt Romney realized a business-only approach wasn't going to work, and he awkwardly tried to embrace some social issues. It didn't work.
GARRETT HAAKE:
Yeah, he got to it too late, and that was a big debate within his campaign of how much he should just be the economic Mr. Fix-it and how much he should engage on these other issues. Look, I think Brendan kind of touched on what, to me, is the key issue here. It's not about culture wars. The operative word here is "wars," right? It's the fight. And this has been Donald Trump's superpower all along, I think, in this primary, is that he has cultivated the right enemies. He can fight the Biden DOJ. He can fight the Left. He can kind of pick the enemy of the moment and make it all about how they are going after him. DeSantis tries to do that, even in that clip you played, the idea that Trump is the enemy. That's not going to work. Trump has spent the last eight years in the public eye cultivating all the correct enemies to Republican primary voters, and I think that's a big reason he's got the lead that he has.
CHUCK TODD:
Claire, how nervous would you be if somebody like Doug Burgum suddenly ended up with the Republican nomination, if Republican primary voters said, "Whoa, hey, let's go with somebody who's going to do that?"
CLAIRE McCASKILL:
Well, you know, would he be a stronger candidate than Trump? Candidly, he probably would, because what Trump and DeSantis having figured out is they have to win a general. Neither one of those people are growing the number of voters they need to win.
CHUCK TODD:
Feels like just the opposite.
CLAIRE McCASKILL:
It's just the opposite. Their sliver is shrinking. And the culture wars? I've got to tell you, this time around, bring it, because I think that Democrats want to talk about abortion, and they want to talk about guns.
CHUCK TODD:
I was just going to say, Amna, yes, they did the messaging with – but this felt like – I'm with Claire here. I don't think they're going to run on Bidenomics. You know –
AMNA NAWAZ:
Well, l --
CHUCK TODD:
– I think they're going to say it. I think they're going to do it to appease Bernie Sanders, who says, "You should run on the economy."
AMNA NAWAZ:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
But I think they're going to run on abortion and guns.
AMNA NAWAZ:
That was a good Bernie Sanders, by the way.
CHUCK TODD:
Thank you.
AMNA NAWAZ:
I think the economy is a huge part of their message. They need something that tries to capture all the many things that they've done, including the Infrastructure Act, and the Inflation Reduction Act, and the CHIPS Act. All of those things, they are trying to get it all under one big umbrella. And, look, White House officials will tell you it's not that it has to be all the way fixed by the time people are voting. They just want it to be trending better. They think that is definitely a strong message that voters will be voting on. But, absolutely, you're going to see Vice President Harris out much more talking about issues like abortion rights, talking about voting rights, talking about those issues that we know they've been messaging on, more cultural, social things. That's going to be just as big a message for them.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah. How would you be handling the economic messaging here? Because voters don't believe it.
CLAIRE McCASKILL:
Well --
CHUCK TODD:
So, what would you be telling people in Missouri?
CLAIRE McCASKILL:
I think that, fundamentally, voters do understand that we have very, very low unemployment. They see it in their families, that everybody has jobs, everybody can get jobs, their jobs are paying slightly better. If I were them, I would not try to sell the whole economic picture. I would just talk about what politicians always talk about: jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs --
CHUCK TODD:
Stick to that, yeah.
CLAIRE McCASKILL:
And with the infrastructure bill, they can do the same thing: jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs. So, jobs, guns and abortion.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. I want to pivot back to the Republican race, because we have – this is, like, the umpteenth week in a row, Brendan, where we're saying, "Is Ron DeSantis losing?" The Wall Street Journal called it "stalling." Well, Ron DeSantis is acknowledging that he's struggling. But listen – you talked about a Washington answer before. Listen to this answer on rationalizing what's going on with his campaign.
[START TAPE]
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
Well, I think if you look at the people like the corporate media, who are they going after? Who do they not want to be the nominee? They're going after me. Who's the president of Mexico attacking because he knows we'll be strong on the border and hold him accountable and the cartels? He's going after me. So, I think if you look at all these people that are responsible for a lot of the ills in our society, they're targeting me as the person they don't want to see as the candidate.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
This feels like an attempt to do what Donald Trump does a lot better than he does: is be the martyr.
BRENDAN BUCK:
Yeah, I've always agreed with what Garrett said about making enemies. And Ron DeSantis has made a lot of enemies, and he's very good at getting people on the Left to dislike him.
CHUCK TODD:
He should be the best person around to pick a fight.
BRENDAN BUCK:
Absolutely.
CHUCK TODD:
He knew how to pick a fight.
BRENDAN BUCK:
It works for him. But, at some point, when you're running for president, you need more than that, and you need to be able to connect with people. And I think this is what's missing with Ron DeSantis. And I think we've seen it in years past. You know, a lot of comparisons to Scott Walker and Jeb Bush. And I think one of the biggest problems with them was they were a little dull. And I think what we're seeing is Ron DeSantis gets out here, and people are seeing him more and more. He doesn't make people feel anything. Whatever you care about Donald Trump, he makes you feel something. Ron DeSantis seems to lack that.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Garrett, I saw that Glenn Youngkin made sure that he has checked the box and sent National Guard troops to the border. I think it's sort of a perfunctory thing. You don't want to be the Republican governor that didn't.
GARRETT HAAKE:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
There's a reason the Brian Kemp and Glenn Youngkin rumors don't go away. It's due to DeSantis' performance, is it not?
GARRETT HAAKE:
Right. I mean, there's a significant element of the Republican electorate and the Republican donor class who desperately want there to be someone to give a credible challenge to Donald Trump. And the theory was that that was always going to be Ron DeSantis, and if not him, who? Is it somebody who's already in this field, or does the field expand yet again? Now, it's getting awfully late in the year for something like that to happen, but every – you know, every bad DeSantis poll story, every awkward DeSantis clip on television opens that door a little bit wider for someone else in this theoretical field to say, "Why not me?"
CHUCK TODD:
And very quickly, Amna, you heard Phil Murphy's answer about the Supreme Court. As much as he wishes things were differently, he doesn't want to change – go through Supreme Court reform. I don't think Biden does either, but is the party going to pressure him to?
AMNA NAWAZ:
He may get some pressure from that, sure, from the left wing. But that conversation is not going to go – never going to go away, right? The economy is their big message right now. As Claire said, they have a good message to deliver, right? Unemployment is low. Inflation is coming down. It's still uncomfortably high. The risk for them, though, is that things get worse. This has to be something that continues to get better for the next year.
CHUCK TODD:
And the Fed's going to keep tightening, and we still don't have enough workers and both contributes to inflation. Up next, the Supreme Court's rulings on affirmative action and student debt may change who gets a college degree. And there are still some serious divides when it comes to higher education. Data Download is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Data Download time. The Supreme Court's decision to strike down affirmative action has paved the way for a potentially dramatic change in who gets into college and where they go. This is important, because the sharp racial and ethnic divides remain around who has a bachelor's degree in the United States today. And those differences have very real impact on a person's employment and earnings for the rest of their lives. Over the last 40-plus years, the number of Americans who get a bachelor's degree has grown across the board, but the differences across racial and ethnic groups is staggering. Let me show you. We're going to start with Asian Americans here. From -- in 1980, 32%, nearly 33% of Asian Americans had a bachelor's degree or higher. That number is close to 56% today. Among the white population, 1980, it was under 20%. Today, it's just under 40% -- nearly a doubling, little more of a doubling, if you will. Then, you look at Black Americans. It was below 10% in 1980. It is now near 25% in 2021. Hispanic Americans, again, just below Black Americans in 1980. And here, just under 20%. So, you can see these disparities exist quite a bit. Now, take a look at it when it comes to earning potential. For folks that have a bachelor's degree, among folks ages 25 to 34, here's your average salary: $65,000. And for every bit of education you don't get, is every bit of salary you don't get, as you can see. An associate's degree, less, high school diploma, less, and so forth. And then, you look at it when it comes to employment. Look at the unemployment rate over the last -- over this summer. If you have a bachelor's degree, you're at 2% of those with a bachelor's degree are unemployed. You look at those folks with some college, it's 3%. If you have less than a high school diploma, you're at 6% unemployed. So, it has a huge impact on your ability to get a job. And then, there's the college debt issue. Take a look at who has college debt in America. Those holding the most among those under the age of 35: Black women, at over $11,000. Then, it's white women, then Black men, then white men, and Hispanic men and Hispanic women. The point is both of these rulings could have a huge impact on the lack of diversity in colleges and universities over the next generation. And in the next ten years, it's going to be fascinating to see how these numbers have changed. When we come back, they are weapons banned by over a hundred countries. So, why did President Biden decide to send them to Ukraine, even if it means an increased risk to civilians?
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. President Biden did something that has a lot of antiwar activists upset, frankly has a lot of folks around the world upset: the decision to send over cluster munitions, Amna, to the Ukrainians. First, let me play President Biden's rationale for why he went ahead and agreed to do something that a hundred countries had banned the use of, ammunition a hundred countries had banned the use of. Take a listen to his explanation.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN:
This is a war relating to munitions, and they're running out of that ammunition. And we're low on it. And so what I finally did, took the recommendation of the Defense Department.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Amna, he's actually giving voice to something that's been a running issue inside the Pentagon for about, about the last three months, which is the stockpiles are running down --
AMNA NAWAZ:
They are.
CHUCK TODD:
-- around the entire West.
AMNA NAWAZ:
They are. And it's dangerous because they are burning through that ammunition faster than the U.S. and the alliance can resupply it. It's a real problem in what they have called a must-win war. Let's be clear about what these cluster munitions are though, right? They basically spread a series of so-called bomblets over a huge area. Many of them do not detonate upon impact and then pose a severe, potentially fatal risk --
CHUCK TODD:
Almost like abandoned landmines, potentially --
AMNA NAWAZ:
Exactly. And we know this has happened. There's been thousands of civilian deaths across the world, or maimings across the world, as a result of these. The U.S. themselves stopped using them back in 2003 by and large, by the way. So this speaks to both the desperation that we're facing on the front in Ukraine, also this particular moment in time where the counter-offensive is not going as well as they would like it to. Military folks I talk to say, "This could change the direction of the war, and they're already using these. So, why not give Ukraine everything they want? And they did request these." But even some former military folks I've talked to said, "Look, there's going to be a long and dangerous cleanup after this war. We will deal with this after the fact."
CHUCK TODD:
Garrett any -- a few Democrats spoke out, you know, sent out releases uncomfortable with this. Is this somehow going to impact support for the war?
GARRETT HAAKE:
I doubt it. I mean, the coalition of people in Congress and nationally, at least if you believe the polling, is still strongly in favor of giving the Ukrainians what they need here. I think to the degree this becomes a political issue, it becomes another example of the Biden White House having to be kind of dragged towards giving the Ukrainians what they said they needed. Whether it was tanks, or jets, or HIMARS, you know, there's been this sort of element of like, "We will give you what you want only after you really, really beg us for it." That could have a political impact. But I don't think the progressive opposition to giving Ukrainians dangerous weapons they're going to use on their own land, you know, to defend their own territory is going to, you know, broadly change the direction of the political debate here.
CHUCK TODD:
Claire, I'm convinced in the next 15 years there'll be more books written about Biden and NATO than Biden and anything in the domestic policy, just because we judge our presidencies by their foreign policy. Yet, it's unlikely that success in the war accrues to his benefit. But any mistake could become a problem for him, right?
CLAIRE McCASKILL:
Well, I -- yeah. And he has shown tremendous strength in terms of unifying NATO. And he will go over to NATO, and he will talk to all of them, and he will use his foreign policy chops and his diplomacy skills, which are really impressive. And he will smooth this over about these weapons. And I think one thing we have to remember about these weapons: First, the Democratic Armed Services Committee embraced this. So this is not going to be a huge schism in the party. And, second, they're asking to use them in their own country. They're not going to use them in another country. So this is not going to punish innocent civilians you're at war against. This is Ukraine deciding, "It is worth the risk to hold on to our country to use these munitions to save our country."
CHUCK TODD:
And, Brendan, Republicans would have -- on the House, at least the more hawkish ones, had they not sent it, would have said, "Oh, wokeness is somehow hitting the military decisions in a war."
BRENDAN BUCK:
Yeah. And I think the other important dynamic we have to keep in mind is it's not clear that there's going to be support from Congress to continue funding this war forever. And obviously Ukraine's success in here relies in large part on the United States footing a lot of the bill. And we've already started seeing a lot of Republicans questioning whether -- I think there will be more money to come, but it's not forever. And I think Joe Biden is looking at this and realizing, "We need to win this war quickly before we run out of support back home."
CHUCK TODD:
Before I close, Maureen Dowd, Garrett, had a pretty tough piece on Joe Biden. It was about sort of -- the Biden family isn't acknowledging all of Hunter Biden's children. "It’s seven grandkids, Mr. President. Not six." I think we all understand the personal challenge and concern in all of these things that the, that the, that the president has here. But his political foes are -- see this, and they're trying to exploit -- I mean, there is no doubt every day DeSantis or Trump try to use Hunter to beat up Biden. How's that world handling it?
GARRETT HAAKE:
Look, I don't think anybody envies the position that the president and his family are in on this issue because his family and Hunter specifically have become his primary political liability in a lot of ways. I mean, look at the cocaine story from the last week and how many Republicans have tried to seize on that issue --
CHUCK TODD:
It’s cheapness. It's really kind of ugly, the way it's been done.
GARRETT HAAKE:
It's certainly kind of a tacky play here. But, I mean, look. This is as complex as it gets, to have to -- you know, I think all of us here are parents, right? The idea of trying to balance your family's needs versus your political imperative is, is just ugly and unpleasant in politics as we're going to get. And we're going to get way down in it --
CHUCK TODD:
I was just going to say --
GARRETT HAAKE:
-- before this is over.
CHUCK TODD:
–- this is only the beginning. All right. I've got to run. That's all we have for today. Thank you for watching. We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.