CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday, former Vice President Mike Pence responds to the federal indictment of Donald Trump.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I don’t know why some of my competitors in the Republican primary presume the president will be found guilty. Look, all we know is what – what the president has been accused of in the indictment.
CHUCK TODD:
If you were President Biden, would you pardon him right now?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I just think this whole matter is incredibly divisive for the country.
CHUCK TODD:
As he launches his own run for the White House, he explains where he differs with his former running mate.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
In 2016, Donald Trump promised to govern as a conservative. But he makes no such promise today.
CHUCK TODD:
His criticism on how Trump would lead on the world stage
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
My former running mate, seeing war raging in Eastern Europe, is signaling an ambiguous message. He is not even able to say who he would prefer to see win the war in Ukraine.
CHUCK TODD:
And how he thinks he can build support for his own campaign.
CHUCK TODD:
Who is a Pence supporter, and how does it differentiate right now from a Trump supporter?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I know the people in our movement.
CHUCK TODD:
My exclusive interview with Mike Pence making history as the first former Vice President to ever directly challenge his running mate in a primary. Joining me for insight and analysis are NBC News Senior Washington Correspondent Hallie Jackson, New York Times Chief White House correspondent Peter Baker, Kimberly Atkins Stohr, Senior Opinion Writer for The Boston Globe and Stephen Hayes, editor of The Dispatch. Welcome to Sunday. It’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning and Happy Father's Day to all the dads out there. As one former prosecutor put it pretty bluntly this week, two years from now Donald Trump could be in prison or he could be president. With Trump holding a commanding lead over the Republican field, this week his opponents faced the question that will dominate this race over the next six months: will they, can they and should they go after the former president over his federal indictment and Trump's legal issues to come. First let’s tackle the will they? Clearly it would be the best way for any Republican candidate not named Trump to get some attention. But so far the most direct criticism has come from single-digit candidates Chris Christie and Asa Hutchinson. Hutchinson called on Trump to drop out of the race after the indictment saying, “it’s simply wrong to be discussing a pardon.” And Christie said "the conduct in the indictment is awful." But as Trump appeared in a Florida courtroom even opponents who have criticized the charges as serious and Donald Trump’s behavior as reckless have diminished that very criticism of Trump with attacks against the Justice Department for bringing the charges against him in the first place. And before the case was even tried, they’ve been leaping to promise a pardon:
[START TAPE]
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
This is my commitment, on January 20, 2025, if I'm elected the next U.S. president to pardon Donald J. Trump.
FMR. GOV. NIKKI HALEY:
I think it would be terrible for the country to have a former president in prison for years because of a documents case so I would be inclined in favor of a pardon. But I think it's really premature at this point when he’s not even been convicted.
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
We're going to clean house at the FBI, Justice, we’re going to do a lot. But part of it is using your Article II powers to redress wrongs, including potentially pardons. If there was a different standard, we're going to be very inclined to grant clemency in those situations.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Let’s tackle part two of this question, can they go after them on this. In a Quinnipiac poll this week, Trump leads the Republican field by 30 percentage points garnering 53% of the vote, so over a majority. In a NPR/PBS/Marist poll, while just 43% of Americans overall want Trump to continue to run given his indictment, a whopping 83% of Republicans believe he should keep running. Only 13% of Republicans believe Trump has even done something illegal. Changing those voters' minds, in a conservative media ecosystem that at least for now plans to defend Trump, will be an uphill battle. Final part of this question, should they go after him? One candidate who has a pretty explicit take on the seriousness of protecting classified information regardless of someone's money or position was candidate Donald Trump in 2016.
[START TAPE]
DONALD TRUMP:
In my administration, I'm going to enforce all laws concerning the protection of classified information. No one will be above the law. We can't have someone in the Oval Office who doesn't understand the meaning of the word confidential or classified. One of the first things we must do is to enforce all classification rules and to enforce all rules relating to the handling of classified information.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Well perhaps that applies to thee and not to me in that case. That was 2016 when his opponent was Hillary Clinton. Now, as one Republican strategist put it, if you aren't willing to criticize Trump, ask yourself why you're running to defeat him. Bottom line, the question for all of Trump's opponents is what kind of party are running to lead. On Friday, I sat down in Huntsville, Alabama with Trump's one-time running mate, former Vice President Mike Pence. He’s now challenging him for the nomination and of course I began by asking about Trump's indictment this week.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think – do you think if these allegations are true he deserves to be convicted?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, first, moments like this, I think it's important for leaders in this country and those of us who aspire to leadership, to return to first principles. The first principle is no one's above the law. The second principle is that every American is entitled to a presumption of innocence. Now, I've – I’ve read the indictment in detail.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
And the allegations in the indictment are serious. And I can't defend what is alleged. But the former president deserves his day in court. He deserves the opportunity to make his defense in a court of law. And so I want to – I want to reserve judgment about this until he's had an opportunity to take his case into the courtroom and take his case to the American people.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I will never diminish the importance of protecting our nation's secrets, particularly those that bear upon our national security. I have a son in the Marine Corps. I have a son-in-law in the United States Navy. We've got to ensure that classified materials, especially those that have been alleged in this indictment, that bear upon our national security --
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
-- are protected and secured. But that being said, we’ve gone through years, Chuck --
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah. But during the 2016 campaign –
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
We’ve gone through years of –
CHUCK TODD:
– you said what Hillary Clinton did with the server and the mishandling of classified documents, in October of 2016, you said, it “disqualified her to be commander-in-chief.” Does this disqualify Donald Trump to be commander-in-chief again?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, I stand by that view. It's one more example of a two-tiered justice system that we've been living through for seven years. I mean, I have to tell you, after seeing Hillary Clinton given a pass --
CHUCK TODD:
By your Justice Department --
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
-- by the FBI --
CHUCK TODD:
It was by a Republican --
CHUCK TODD:
No, no, no. Wait.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
No.
CHUCK TODD:
No, no, no. Jeff Sessions had another U.S. attorney look into everything with the Clinton Foundation --
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I got to --
CHUCK TODD:
-- and didn't bring charges.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
James Comey --
CHUCK TODD:
This was a Republican Justice Department.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
-- in the run-up to the election, you know, Chuck --
CHUCK TODD:
I understand that. But you guys --
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I'm not correcting you --
CHUCK TODD:
-- looked at it again.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
-- on history. Hillary Clinton was given a pass. And then we went two and a half years through a Russia investigation that we now know from the Durham Report should've never been begun.
CHUCK TODD:
Actually, there was an inspector general report that said there was no politics involved with this, that everything was a legitimate reason to investigate. Again, these are all Republican appointees that have done it --
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Okay. Chuck, the independent counsel found that the investigation into Russian collusion should never have been initiated. And yet, we lived through two and a half years of a constant barrage on your network, on the cable network associated with you, and many of the other mainstream media, suggesting that there was Russian collusion. We had public officials that said there was evidence of collusion. Never happened. And then, I thought it was disgraceful the way big media and big tech essentially colluded to suppress the story of the Hunter Biden laptop in the run-up to the 2020 campaign, when the FBI actually had the laptop and knew it was legitimate. And so, look, it's hard for me to believe that politics didn't play some role in the unprecedented decision to bring an indictment against a former president of the United States. But I want to be clear --
CHUCK TODD:
Let me flip it. I understand that you take it seriously.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
-- no one's above the law. And the --
CHUCK TODD:
But let me flip it on you --
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
-- allegations are serious.
CHUCK TODD:
You believe there's all this politics that influenced this decision. What was the Justice Department supposed to do? Should they not have charged him because he's an active candidate for president? Even in the face of all of these serious allegations, should they not have brought charges?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, as I said in the run-up to this indictment, I had hoped that the Department of Justice would see its way clear to resolve this issue, short of criminal charges.
CHUCK TODD:
Is that on the Justice Department or on the former president? I mean, he could have – he didn't respond to a subpoena. He didn't respond to requests. As Bill Barr said, he brought this on himself.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Chuck, I understand what's been reported in the news. We'll see what comes out in evidence in the court of law. But, look, I want to say to you that I had hoped for several reasons that the Department of Justice would've done otherwise, because, as we have seen in the last week, this has only served to further divide our divided politics. And I have to tell you, as someone that has represented the United States on the world stage, as someone who was on the International Relations Committee for ten years, we're the gold standard of justice in the world. And to see a former president of the United States be subject to an indictment by the administration of the current president, that he may well be facing again in the future, that sends a terrible message to the wider world, where you know there are many third world countries around –
CHUCK TODD:
Alright, but flip the script.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
– the world where that pattern is very –
CHUCK TODD:
Flip the script.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
– common.
CHUCK TODD:Imagine deciding that you have evidence that a former president commits a crime, and you don't charge.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Yeah, no.
CHUCK TODD:
That could be just as damaging to our gold standard rule of law example, could it not?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, I think the proper answer right now, because we have an indictment, and as I said, the allegations are serious, and the proper approach now is for equal treatment under the law. The Department of Justice, I would like to see, bring equal vigor to the investigation into allegations around Hunter Biden.
CHUCK TODD:
How do you know they're not?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
And we have investigations swirling around Hunter Biden about –
CHUCK TODD:
Can I ask you this, how do you know that they're not? How do you know that they're not doing that right now?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, I want to see them come forward –
CHUCK TODD:
There's a U.S. attorney in Delaware –
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
– with actions that would –
CHUCK TODD:
– that's been looking into this –
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
– reflect -–
CHUCK TODD:
– for quite some time.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
– their commitment to equal treatment under the law. And frankly, you know, the fact that President Biden was found to have had classified documents dating all the way back, not just to his years as vice president, but to his years in the United States Senate, I would like to see the Department of Justice moving forward vigorously with that investigation –
CHUCK TODD:
They have a special counsel. He appointed a special counsel.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
That's equal treatment under the law.
CHUCK TODD:
So you approve of what Garland did by having a special counsel look into President Biden?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, we'll see what happens, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Wait, give me your definition of equal treatment. Equal treatment –
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
The American people have seen so far that the former president has been subject to an indictment –
CHUCK TODD:
But there's a difference between equal treatment and equal outcomes.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
There is a perception, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Are you looking for an equal outcome or equal treatment?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you get my point?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I get your point. And I think I'm being very clear on this. I think the American people would like to see evidence that we don't have a two-tiered system of justice. Seven years it appears as though Democrats get one level of treatment, and Republicans, especially those of us in the Trump-Pence administration --
CHUCK TODD:
You keep bringing up seven years --
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
– get another.
CHUCK TODD:
But Mr. Vice President --
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
The American people want to see --
CHUCK TODD:
– you keep bringing up seven years.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
– action by the Department of Justice that proves to them, or starts to prove to them, that that's not the case.
CHUCK TODD:
Did the Sessions/Barr Justice Department politicize things in favor of the Democrats? Is that your allegation, that in four of the seven years you're describing, that the Justice Department that was run by Republican – former Republican Senator Jeff Sessions, two-time Republican Attorney General Bill Barr, was politicizing the Justice Department in favor of Democrats?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE
What I'm saying to you is that we now know that the Russia collusion investigation should've never been begun. Two and a half years, put the country through this.
CHUCK TODD:
The inspector general never said that, for what it's worth.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
In the days following that, under the Biden administration now, we've literally seen the Justice Department targeting parents going to school board meetings. We've seen the Justice Department targeting pro-life activists. And – and I have to tell you, Chuck, I'm still waiting for the rash of prosecutions of people involved in the BLM riots from the summer of 2020. I mean, where – where is the equal treatment under the law as evidence of the fact that people are being brought into court, being held for having caused billions of dollars in damage in hundreds of riots throughout the summer of 2020? Look, clearly, the American people – or I will tell you, among Republicans, the vast majority of Republicans have lost confidence in the Department of Justice. And if I'm elected president of the United States, I've said on day one, we're going to clean house at the highest levels of the Department of Justice.
CHUCK TODD:
You've talked about firing Christopher Wray on day one –
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
And we're going to find men and women of integrity –
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you this.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
– who are respected on both sides of the aisle, who will restore confidence in the rule of law.
CHUCK TODD:
Christopher Wray is a Trump appointee. What makes him so – a person that runs a politicized FBI? I mean, this is where I understand the accusation, but the facts don't feel like they fit the accusation.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
All I'm telling you is the reality today, and look I appreciate the service of everybody serving on the top floor of the Department of Justice, but they've lost the confidence of the majority of the American people.
CHUCK TODD:
You have been asked a few times whether you would pardon the former president if he's convicted, and if you were the president. Would you?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, I just think the question is premature. I mean, honestly, Chuck, I've pardoned people who were found guilty of a crime when I was the governor of Indiana.
CHUCK TODD:
What is your bar? What was your bar for a pardon?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, let me say first and foremost, I don't know why some of my competitors in the Republican primary presume the president will be found guilty. Look, all we know is what – what the president has been accused of in the indictment. We don't know what his defense is. We don't know if this will even go to trial. It could be subject to a motion to dismiss. We don't know what the verdict will be of the jury. We don't know the result of an appeal. So I think, look, the president of the United States takes an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. And as I said in my announcement, I'll always choose the Constitution. But the oath the president takes also requires him to see that the laws are faithfully executed. That means respecting the Article III Courts in this country. I think we need to let the courts do their job and let this case work its way – work it’s way through our judicial system. And if I have the great privilege of being president of the United States, as I did when I was governor, we would evaluate any request for pardon for any American on the same foundation.
CHUCK TODD:
If you were President Biden, would you pardon him right now?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I just think this whole matter is incredibly divisive for the country. And look, I just think, at the end of the day, it is – it is – it is saddening to me that we are now in this moment, for two reasons. Number one is, look, President Trump was my friend.
CHUCK TODD:
You said it in past tense.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, we worked together very closely for four years. I'm incredibly proud of the record of the Trump-Pence administration. Some in this primary have taken to criticizing the record of our administration. And I'm proud of everything we accomplished for the American people. We left America stronger, more prosperous than ever before. Obviously, as you and I have talked in great detail, it did not end well. As I said in my announcement speech, the American people deserve to know that on that tragic day of January 6, President Trump asked me to choose him over the Constitution. And I chose the Constitution, and I always will. I had no right to overturn the election.
CHUCK TODD:
Isn't this your way of saying he's not qualified to be president because he did not – to put it in somebody else's words, I think it was Liz Cheney that says, "You have to choose between the Constitution and supporting him" you chose the Constitution. Is that what he's demanding?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, look, President Trump was wrong then. He's wrong now. He's continued to say that I had the right to overturn the election. I had no right to overturn the election. And Kamala Harris will have no right to overturn the election when we beat her in 2024. And, look, the role of the Congress and the role of the vice president on that day is to open and count electoral votes. No more, no less. I'll always believe, by God's grace, that I did my duty that day. But let me say, with regard to going forward, I'm running for president of the United States because I believe our party and our country need new leadership.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Panel is here. NBC News Senior Washington Correspondent, Hallie Jackson, anchor of Hallie Jackson NOW, Peter Baker, the Chief White House Correspondent for The New York Times, Stephen Hayes, CEO and Editor of The Dispatch, and Kimberly Atkins Stohr, Senior Opinion Writer for The Boston Globe. Will they, can they, should they? Hallie, the President's defenders were out. Here is how the defense of the indictment began this week.
[START TAPE]
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
Is it a good picture to have boxes in a garage that opens up all the time? A bathroom door locks.
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
There are 33 bathrooms at Mar-a-Lago, so don't act like it's just in some random bathroom that the guests can go into.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
He is not a spy. He's overcharged. Did he do things wrong? Yes, he may have. He will be tried about that.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
So where are we?
HALLIE JACKSON:
Okay, will they, can they, should they? The people that you just saw of course are going to back Donald Trump. They're some of his most loyal allies. They’re members of Congress, et cetera. That fits a piece of where we are right now. Will they, can they, should they? Will they? I will tell you, not for a long while, and that's a quote that I heard in the last 18 hours from a member of a rival campaign. There is very little incentive for most of these people going up against Donald Trump in this election, based on my reporting, to try to take him on, to pull the knives out right now, for a number of reasons. They say that's just not where the voters are. That's not where the Republican primary electorate is. The numbers that you showed at the top of the segment, Chuck, show that, right? That is actually backed up by facts. Voters don't necessarily want to see that. You're going to have Chris Christie, you're going to have Asa Hutchinson come out and talk about this. You're going to have Nikki Haley try to walk this line where it's incredibly reckless on the one hand, but on the other hand she'd consider pardoning him, et cetera. Can they? They can. We're seeing what they choose to do. And should they? That's an assessment that each of these campaigns is going to have to come up with for themselves.
CHUCK TODD:
Peter Baker, the field is kind of split on the pardoning of Trump here. Here are those that are inclined to be for pardoning him: Nikki Haley, she even used the word "inclined" in favor of a pardon. Vivek Ramaswamy, he is making it a lead part of his campaign. He held up the paper as his commitment to pardon him. Governor DeSantis, very inclined to grant clemency, as he talks about it. But when you turn the page, Tim Scott’s not ready to discuss hypotheticals. Chris Christie implying that if it's a fair trial he wouldn't pardon him, and of course, it's wrong. Trump's blotting out the sun. So if you don't take him on on the indictments, you're not going to get any coverage.
PETER BAKER:
No, that's exactly right. He is the all-consuming part of the Republican primary right now. And to Hallie's point, I get the point. We're not having votes yet. So maybe if you're going to eventually take the knives, you want to wait till you get closer to when the votes begin rather than make yourself a target for him for the next three, or four, or five months. I think the real strategy, though, is they're just waiting for Trump to beat himself. Because right now, none of them can beat him. So they're waiting for him to self-destruct.
CHUCK TODD:
That worked really well in '15 and '16 —
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
I was just going to say.
PETER BAKER:
Well, they didn't have prosecutors in 2015 and 2016. Maybe this will be different. That's the theory. This is not the end of the criminal justice system's handling of Donald Trump. There may be a third and even a fourth indictment. At some point the calculation is, does that begin to weigh him down?
CHUCK TODD:
Are we seeing the Fifth Avenue moment come to life?
STEPHEN HAYES:
Yeah, this is it. This is the Fifth Avenue indictment. I think that's what we're looking at. Look, I take the point that these campaigns are making, that they don't want to go after him right now, that it might be too early. But come on. He's the front runner. If you don't make this argument, you're never going to convince voters that they should back away from Donald Trump, if you don't make this argument. I think there's this misperception among the Republican rank-and-file that nobody - that none of the Republicans in Washington, none of the candidates opposing him actually think this is serious, are concerned about this. When in reality, I mean, we're all having conversations with them. They're saying to us privately, "Wow, this is bad."
CHUCK TODD:
And they, look, right, "The indictment was worse than we thought."
STEPHEN HAYES:
This is bad. He's on tape basically admitting it. I mean, this is what you hear from Republicans privately. And then they say in public, "Well, I'm really concerned about Hillary Clinton and the Justice Department."
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
But how deep of a hole can they dig, though? Because, as you said, this is only going to get worse if there are indictments out of Georgia, you’ve already the indictment out of New York. These are things that they can't even pardon, so they can't even use that argument when talking about it. And as things get progressively and progressively worse, where can Republican House members go past, you know, "Well, once you put a lock on the bathroom door it's essentially a SCIF. It's the same thing?" I mean, they've reached such a low point. How much further can they dig? I think it will do long-term damage to the party.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me bring up, though, a concern that some Democrats are having, that the White House is being too quiet about this. We had some reporting over the weekend, Kimberly, one anonymous staffer, "It's malpractice to let them dominate," referring to Trump, to fill in the blanks here. "Biden's allies should be hitting him hard." A donor, "I don't think it's sustainable to say nothing." Another strategist, "In a lot of ways, we're almost allowing him to fight on his own turf." Look, we've heard this before. You know, he fills the vacuum. This happened with Mueller. Mueller didn't say a word, never defended his work, Jack Smith doesn't. It's because it would be inappropriate to do so, and Trump uses those norms to his advantage. But should Biden's folks, should Democrats be leaning in more?
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
Well, here Biden's in a weird position, right, because he's in two roles. One, he’s the President of the United States, and in that role, he's absolutely right that the President does not have any power, and should not have any power to influence the Justice Department. He is also the presumptive nominee for the Democratic Party in the presidential, and Donald Trump is his opponent. And is this an electability issue? You bet it is. And so he has to find a way to be able to talk about the rule of law, and explain why it's so important, and somebody who absolutely flouts it is unfit for office, while at the same time keeping his hands off the Justice Department, as the Commander in Chief.
CHUCK TODD:
What if he could do both?
STEPHEN HAYES:
No, I think they'd like to run against Donald Trump, so they don't want to do this right now. And it’s important to, there are some real concerns the Republicans raise that are more than just whataboutism, about the way that the Department of Justice and the FBI has conducted itself, particularly during the Trump administration. There are legitimate concerns raised by the Department of Justice Inspector General that Republicans can point to. I think there are legitimate beefs that Republicans make about Hillary Clinton and non-prosecution of Hillary Clinton. Those are fair points. If Democrats were to pile on now in a public way – Joe Biden especially – and go after Trump on this indictment, they would just be validating all of those concerns from Republicans.
CHUCK TODD:
Jill Biden kind of, it’s smart, she goes, "I can't believe Republicans are sticking --”
HALLIE JACKSON:
“I'm a little bit surprised,” she said, "That Republicans would have this response.”
CHUCK TODD:
Right. Yeah, that was, their, like, the tiptoe.
HALLIE JACKSON:
It was, like, the float, if you will. I think this conversation, though, is bringing us back to where we started this discussion, which is: half of Republicans don't believe that the Department of Justice is a fair institution. Half of Republicans, roughly, when you look at polling over the last eight to 12 months, just don't think that the DOJ or the FBI is worthy of their favorability, if you will. That is a huge, I think, bigger macro issue playing out over the course of the next multiple years for a party that, as you know, has long been built on this idea of law and order. And the shift away from that is really interesting here --
CHUCK TODD:
You know, it does beg the question, what's worse: bringing this charge and not getting a conviction, or bringing this charge, getting the conviction, and living with the fallout of that. It feels like these are just nothing but bad options.
PETER BAKER:
Yeah, not a lot of good options. But you asked the question, right? What if you have this set of facts and you don't bring charges? What does that say about our justice system? Is there, in fact, a get out of jail free card for former presidents? You can do anything you want, and nobody ever holds you accountable? That's a problem.
CHUCK TODD:
Especially if you just sort of hang over the illusion that, "I could start violence." Anyway, when we come back, more of my interview with the former Vice President, Mike Pence, on why he's challenging his former running mate.
[START TAPE]
MIKE PENCE”
In 2016, Donald Trump promised to govern as a conservative. But he makes no such promise today.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Former Vice President Mike Pence, who loyally served Trump for four years, is now making the case for against him. In our sitdown, I asked Pence, "Why challenge his former boss now?" Would you be running against Donald Trump if he did not ask you to violate your oath? Had he accepted the results of the election, and now he's running again without that, would you still be challenging him?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I would leave that to historians to speculate on, Chuck. I would tell you, at the end of the day, he did. You know, and I always hoped he'd come around on this. As I said recently –
CHUCK TODD:
Sounds like, had he come around, you might not be running.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
No, let me explain to you. I always hoped he'd come around on this issue –
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
– because I believe no one who puts himself over the Constitution should ever be president of the United States. And I had hoped that President Trump would eventually see that he'd been misled by the so-called legal experts that had advised him wrongly about the role that he thought I had, and still thinks I had that day. But also, I would honestly tell you, Chuck, we have – we have other differences other than that day. I spoke about it in my announcement speech. It's not just looking at the past, but it's the direction of the country, the direction of the Republican party in the future. I mean, I'm pro-life. I don't apologize for it. And – but after leading the most pro-life administration in American history, and now my former running mate has taken to calling some pro-life bills at the state level “too harsh.”
CHUCK TODD:
He called the six-week bill in Florida too harsh. You disagree with him?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I do. But he also blamed electoral losses in 2022 on overturning Roe v. Wade. Look, I think that the cause of life has been the animating force of the conservative movement and the Republican party for 50 years.
CHUCK TODD:
What do you think 2022 was about? Was it more about Donald Trump or was it more about abortion?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Chuck, look, candidates that focused on the future, candidates that focused on the challenges facing the American people in 2022 did very well. Candidates that were focused on the past, were focused on re-litigating the past, did not do well even where we should've. But that's not the only difference, on the right to life. Two other issues that I spoke about in my announcement. And I remember you saying a few weeks back that you always pay attention to announcement speeches –
CHUCK TODD:
I do.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
– because you know that the candidate probably wrote every word.
CHUCK TODD:
I know it's the one case --
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
And I did on this one.
CHUCK TODD:
That's right. I believe it.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Two other issues that I think bear upon the life of the nation of great consequence where the president and I have parted ways. Because, look, in 2016, Donald Trump promised to govern as a conservative. And I'm proud to say that we did for four years under the Trump-Pence administration. But he makes no such promise today. Not only has he been walking away from a clear commitment to the right to life, but, look, we have a national debt the size of our nation's economy. Joe Biden's policy is insolvency. He won't even talk about the 70% of the federal budget that represents entitlements, that's driving that debt.
CHUCK TODD:
Neither does President Trump want to talk about it.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Donald Trump's position on the national debt is identical to Joe Biden's. And to me, the Republican party has to be the party of growth, and fiscal responsibility, and reform. I think we owe it to those – those kids of mine and yours, to my granddaughters, to square our shoulders and – and be straight with the American people about the magnitude of this national debt. It is driving –
CHUCK TODD:
I admire you on this issue, but you realize it's an unpopular issue. The reason – I mean, Donald Trump takes –
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I understand.
CHUCK TODD:
– entitlements off the table because it attracted more voters in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Iowa.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Look, I get it. I get it. But I think the fact that Joe Biden came into office, spent $2 trillion in completely unnecessary spending, and ignited the worst inflation in 40 years, the American people are onto it. That, as the government racks up debt, the cost of living is going up in this country. It's affecting their family budgets. And I think they're ready for a serious conversation that says, "Look, we can preserve and protect Social Security and Medicare for people that are in retirement and who will retire in the next 25 years." But for younger Americans, to turn us away from that debt crisis that they're facing, we've got to bring forward common sense and compassion reforms.
CHUCK TODD:
You'd raise the retirement age, for people in 25 years –
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I think all these issues for younger Americans are on the table, including allowing younger Americans to invest a portion of their payroll tax in a personal savings account. I call – I say, take a new deal program, make it a better deal. Give them a better rate of return than they have in the government program.
CHUCK TODD:
You realize the politics of this has never worked. Everytime someone’s proposed, whether it was George W. Bush –
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, Chuck, again –
CHUCK TODD:
So why do you think the public's ready this time to listen on this?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, again, I think it's because they know the country's in a lot of trouble. We have a debt the size of our nation's economy for the first time since World War II. And inflation's gone up 16% in the last two-and-a-half years. It's crushing the family budgets of millions of Americans, two thirds of which are living paycheck to paycheck. They're starting, in my judgment, to understand that, as government wraps up debt, inflation is happening, and it's crushing the purchasing power of Americans.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, we're actually seeing inflation has been going down over the last year.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
So you've got to reform it. Last issue, though, where there's a difference, Chuck, if I may.
CHUCK TODD:
Go ahead, yes. Yes, sir.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
And that's about America's place in the world. Look, I think America's the leader of the free world. We're the arsenal of democracy. Under our administration, we made the largest increase in investment on national defense in 40 years. And then we unleashed the American military to take down the ISIS caliphate, take down the world's most dangerous terrorists. We even confronted the Russians in Syria, took out 100 Russian soldiers without one American casualty. And Russia never even attempted to redraw international lines by force during our administration. We did peace through strength. Now, my former running mate, seeing war raging in Eastern Europe, is signaling an ambiguous message. I'm not even able to say who he would prefer to see win the war in Ukraine. Well, I think the United States needs to stand by the courageous fighters in Ukraine, give them the resources more quickly than Joe Biden has, to take the fight to the Russians, and repel this invasion.
CHUCK TODD:
What do you tell your former colleagues in the House Republican Conference who don't share this view?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, look, I respectfully disagree. Ronald Reagan in 1985 coined what came to be known as the Reagan Doctrine. That was, if you're willing to fight the communists in your country, we'll give you the tools to fight them there so we don't have to fight them here. I mean, Joe Biden has done such a terrible job explaining the importance of repelling the Russian invasion and supporting the military in Ukraine. And he's – and he’s been delivering the equipment slowly. He promised 33 Abrams tanks in January. They're still not there yet. They're continuing to drag their feet on aircraft. But look, our national interest there –
CHUCK TODD:
You realize it's half your party that doesn't want – that doesn’t even want what he's been sending them.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Yeah, well, it’s – number one, it's not half. And number two --
CHUCK TODD:
The House Republicans, it is.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE
I just think – I think the skepticism about support for the military in Ukraine is more a reflection of a lack of confidence in Joe Biden as commander-in-chief than it is any other issue. What this is going to take --
CHUCK TODD:
You don't think it's Donald Trump out there also fueling – fueling skepticism?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
What this is going to take is leadership, having a president that says to the American people, "Look, it is in our national interest to see the Russian military repelled from Ukraine." Not for -- Joe Biden talks about glossy goals of democracy. No.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I mean, look, if Russia overruns Ukraine, I predict to you it would not be too long before the Russian army crossed the border, where our men and women in uniform would have to go and fight –
CHUCK TODD:
Poland.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
-- by crossing into a NATO ally. Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania. Chuck, and I also believe that by giving Ukraine the ability to repel the Russian invasion, we will send a deafening message to China that the wider world will not tolerate them using force to redraw international lines in Taiwan or anywhere in the Asia-Pacific.
CHUCK TODD:
For the sake of the campaign, do Americans deserve a verdict in Trump's case before the polls, before the election?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, I, I expect they'll get it.
CHUCK TODD:
You'd like to see this trial take place before the election, that the American public should know before the election whether these allegations are true in a court of law?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, look, I think the president should have the right to bring his defense in a court of law –
CHUCK TODD:
And it should be speedy?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
– and if he's found to be guilty, have every right, as every American does, to pursue an appeal and resolve the issue. But I also believe --
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think it's a mistake to delay this trial after the election?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I also believe the American people would be greatly heartened, given the controversy, the evidence that's come out publicly, the Hunter Biden laptop, all the allegations, even – even news that broke in the last few weeks, the American people would be heartened to see the Department of Justice move against Hunter Biden, move against the accusations against the Biden family, and continue to pursue just as aggressively an investigation in, into President Biden's mishandling of classified documents. We've got to restore confidence in the rule of law.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to talk a little bit more about your campaign, which I'm sure you'll be pleased about, and a little less about Donald Trump's legal issues. Who is a Pence supporter, and how does it differentiate right now from a Trump supporter? If you are the Republican nominee it means you're going to win over Trump supporters at some point, but right now they're not for you. How do you convince them? Because they’re – because he's angry at you, they're angry at you.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, look, I, I think that the people around the country, as I've traveled the last two years, have have, have, in the main, very humbling views about me and my family. I've been stopped in airports and grocery stores and gas stations by Americans of every political persuasion who thank me for my service to the country.
CHUCK TODD:
How many of them were wearing MAGA hats when they --
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
And particularly thanked me for the stand that I took on that tragic day.
CHUCK TODD:
But are people that wear MAGA hats doing that to you?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Look, look, I, I know the people in our movement, and I can honestly tell you that they're some of the best people in this country. They love America, and they love our Constitution. And I have every confidence, as we carry our campaign forward and we articulate not only the way we kept faith with the Constitution on one day, but our determination to lead our party on that broad, conservative agenda that's delivered not just great victories for the Republican Party, but for the American people over the last 50 years. I have every confidence that this party will, will come together after a good and vigorous primary and will deliver a great victory in 2024.
CHUCK TODD:
Are you confident that if Donald Trump does not have the most delegates that he will concede the Republican nomination?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I – I am confident the Republican primary voters are going to sort all this out in the months ahead.
CHUCK TODD:
And he’ll – will he accept defeat?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I, look –
CHUCK TODD:
You saw him once not accept defeat. Do you believe he will accept defeat in this primary if he does not have the most delegates –
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I understand – I understand your preoccupation with my former running mate, and what he will do or won't do –
CHUCK TODD:
He's the front runner. It's not a preoccupation, I have no choice –
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
– may do. Chuck, Chuck, look, Republican primary voters know the stakes in this election. They know that we've not just got to win, but we've got to steer our country back to the things that have made America strong and prosperous and free. I'm confident they're going to choose a standard bearer that will hold up those conservative values. And I believe in all of my heart that I'll be that nominee and will lead our party, and more importantly our country, to a great victory in 2024.
CHUCK TODD:
You can see my full interview with former Vice President Mike Pence at MeetThePress.com. For transparency purposes, you'll see it completely untouched. As the country celebrates Juneteenth, this week on Meet the Press Reports, we take a look at the fight over reparations, starting in the state of California: whether America should pay its Black citizens for hundreds of years of slavery, Jim Crow segregation, and other forms of institutional racism.
This isn't theoretical. This could start happening in California soon. Watch our latest episode of Meet the Press Reports on Peacock or YouTube, or right after this broadcast on NBC News Now. When we come back, it is not uncommon for former leaders to be jailed or prosecuted after leaving office, at least around the world. We'll show you why it's not exactly unprecedented for a democracy. Data Download is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Data Download time. Donald Trump's arraignment this week was a watershed event for this country. But according to our friends at Axios, since 1980 about half of the nations in the world have seen former leaders jailed or prosecuted, including in quite a few democracies. In fact, among leaders who have left office after 2000, there are 76 countries where we have seen leaders jailed or prosecuted. Let's look at a few of these cases, and we're going to start with Central and South America. In Guatemala—we're going to start there—former President Molina and his vice president, Roxana Baldetti, both found guilty of corruption last year. Alfonso Portillo pled guilty to attempting to launder $2.5 million through U.S. banks.In Panama, former Presidents Martinelli and Varella have been called to stand trial in a massive money laundering probe. And, of course, that international corruption scandal in Brazil took down President Lula, but he was able to run for office again and win the presidency after his case was annulled.Let's go to Europe. In France, former President Nicolas Sarkozy must wear an ankle bracelet for a year after he lost his appeal of a corruption conviction. And that follows the convictions of former President Chirac and Prime Minister Fillon. Let's go to Israel, where Bibi Netanyahu is currently on trial for corruption charges, even as he currently serves as prime minister. His predecessor, Ehud Olmert, served 16 months in prison for accepting bribes and obstructing justice. In South Korea, former President Park Geun-hye served five years in prison for corruption charges. And just this past week, former Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi passed away at the age of 86. Well, he too had some brushes with the law. He was investigated a lot. He ended up with one conviction for tax fraud in 2013. And guess what? Donald Trump wasn't even the only former government leader to be arrested this week. Meet Nicola Sturgeon, the former first minister of Scotland. She was arrested for financial misconduct, though she was later released without being charged pending further investigation. So what happened to Trump this week may have been unprecedented in the United States, but for many other democracies and countries, it's not exactly a groundbreaking development. When we come back, why some Republicans are looking to run further to the right from Donald Trump. Will it work?
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. I want to pick up one part of the conversation we didn't finish, and that is this idea, Hallie, on Biden. Should Biden pardon Trump? Mark Thiessen and Danielle Pletka, who's a familiar face around the panel every now and then, I thought made a pretty compelling argument as to why maybe President Biden ought to consider a pardon of Trump. Now, he's not going to do that. There'd be a lot of political consequences here. But it does get at the fact that nobody believes Trump should sit in prison, do they?
HALLIE JACKSON:
Part of the reason for that, Chuck, is because of what we've seen in the days after the indictment with some of these if not overt suggestions of violence, at least allusions to it. You know, comments like "war phase we're entering," "eye for an eye," et cetera. There is after January 6th a very real threat that violence could occur because of something that Donald Trump may push and I think that's where a lot of the concern comes in.
CHUCK TODD:
Kimberly, where are you on this –
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
Yeah. I think –
CHUCK TODD:
– issue of a pardon?
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
I used to think that it was a good idea that Nixon was pardoned in order to keep the country together. I now think that it was one of the biggest mistakes that was made in the history of our government.
CHUCK TODD:
I may share that view because I wonder: Would we be thinking about this differently today had we had the premise, "Hey, no one's above the law"?
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
Right. I think we very well may be in a totally different place today if we did not have that and if it was clear that there would be consequences, including criminal ones, for flouting the rule of law. I think that's one of the reasons I think that would be a terrible idea. And, I have trust. Look, I think after what happened on January 6th with the prosecutions of the people who were there, I think that's one reason why we haven't seen the violence when he was indicted, why we haven't seen violence everywhere.
CHUCK TODD:
There's consequences.
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
– in the Justice Department. When there are consequences for them, there also should be consequences for the president.
PETER BAKER:
The difference on Nixon and Ford though is that Nixon had accepted a measure of accountability by resigning, right? He was disgraced. And what Ford was saying is, "We don't need to disgrace him further to agree that Watergate was bad and that Nixon did bad things." That's not the case here. There's no measure of accountability if he gives him a pardon at this point, and that's a different historical judgment.
CHUCK TODD:
Hey, Steve Hayes, I want to pivot to something. I'm not going to play this clip because we're low on time, but Ron DeSantis was on the Christian Broadcasting Network and he's trying to hit Donald Trump for being soft on abortion. In theory, maybe there is room to Trump's right to beat him there on the issue, at least in the state of Iowa. But is that something that'll work?
STEPHEN HAYES:
Yeah, I think Iowa in particular and in the Republican primary more generally you're going to find Republican voters who are pro-life and probably will respond to that kind of an argument. The question is whether the Republican Party's really even an ideological place anymore. It was so interesting listening to the Mike Pence discussion that you had. He's trying to say, "We ought to have a big debate about the size and scope of government" –
CHUCK TODD:
He wants to have a debate about what the Republican Party should be.
STEPHEN HAYES:
Yeah, what the Republican Party should be –
CHUCK TODD:
It's very refreshing.
STEPHEN HAYES:
And is the Republican Party still a limited government party? We haven't heard that debate really for eight years in the Republican Party. I think with Ron DeSantis on the abortion question, given what he's done in Florida it's sort of surprising to me that he hasn't run on it to this point. Remember, he was sort of shy about it. Now, he's running –
CHUCK TODD:
But they are nervous. It makes them less electable –
HALLIE JACKSON:
Well –
CHUCK TODD:
– in the general.
HALLIE JACKSON:
– it's also part of the strategy in the primary, which they have to win in order to even get to a general, right? And it's not just going to be the issue of reproductive rights. The strategy from those that I talk to who are in the DeSantis orbit is to run to the right of Donald Trump on all of these so-called culture war issues, which is where some of the ideology of the party is. On education, right? On LGBTQ+ rights. On issues like abortion. And to show that Ron DeSantis can win on those issues and that Donald Trump cannot, to point to what he's done –
CHUCK TODD:
I've heard this argued.
HALLIE JACKSON:
Right, yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
I've heard the argument. Ted Cruz tried this.
PETER BAKER:
Yeah. Well, it was a different environment. I mean, look. We can try to go back to 2016 over and over again, and we do see a fragmented field in which Donald Trump profits like then. But I think the context is different, and you're hearing DeSantis say not only on this issues but even immigration, "He didn't build the wall," which was of course his main argument in 2016.
CHUCK TODD:
Before we go, one year after the landmark Supreme Court decision overturning Roe v. Wade, we here at Meet the Press will be examining its impact, what it means for the future of this country and your politics. You can watch our Meet the Press special on abortion this Thursday evening at 10:30 Eastern Time on NBC News Now and after that on demand on YouTube and Peacock. That is all we have for today. Thank you for watching. We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday it's Meet the Press. Enjoy Father's Day.