CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday: A challenge to Putin. President Biden issues a warning to Russia –
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Don’t even think about going on one single inch of NATO territory.
CHUCK TODD:
– then says Vladimir Putin has to go.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
For God's sake this man cannot remain in power.
CHUCK TODD:
This as Ukraine successfully begins pushing Russia's forces back –
UKRANIAN WOMAN:
This is a war between light and darkness, between goodness and evil.
CHUCK TODD:
– gaining ground around Kyiv and Kherson and leading Russia to announce it's scaling back its military goals, even as the civilian death toll climbs.
UKRANIAN WOMAN:
The most dramatic question I had from my kid was why Russians try to kill us?
CHUCK TODD:I'll talk to Ukraine's ambassador to the United States, Oksana Markarova about the fight on the ground and Mr. Biden's fiery speech. Plus, Supreme Court theatrics. Nominee Ketanji Brown Jackson –
JUDGE KETANJI BROWN JACKSON:
I hope that you will see how much I love our country
CHUCK TODD:
– faces repeated Republican attacks –
SEN. TED CRUZ:
Why did you sentence him for half the amount?
SEN. MARSHA BLACKBURN:
Can you provide a definition for the word "woman"?
CHUCK TODD:
– and comes out with her confirmation still apparently assured.
CHUCK TODD:
My guests this morning: Democratic Senator Cory Booker of New Jersey and Republican Senator Rob Portman of Ohio. Also our new NBC News poll on what Americans think of the war in Ukraine, the economy at home and President Biden. Joining me for insight and analysis are: Yamiche Alcindor, moderator of Washington Week on PBS, former Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson, USA Today Washington Bureau Chief Susan Page and Stephen Hayes, Editor of The Dispatch. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning. The biggest news President Biden made yesterday was at the very end of an otherwise well-received speech. Just as he was wrapping things up in Warsaw, Mr. Biden made this startling statement about Vladimir Putin: "For God's sake, this man cannot remain in power." Perhaps he said out loud what we've all been thinking, but a White House official tried to clarify that presidential ad lib, saying, "The president's point was that Putin cannot be allowed to exercise power over his neighbors or the region. He was not discussing Putin's power in Russia or regime change." Perhaps, but let's see how he receives it. We do have a new NBC News poll on Ukraine, the economy here at home, and President Biden and a lot more. And let's start with Ukraine. By a fairly large, 71% to 28% margin, Americans say they do not have a lot of confidence in President Biden's ability to respond to this war. 57% say we are already at war with Russia, or will be within a year, a very pessimistic view. 34% disagree. What's more, 68% would prefer Mr. Biden make the economy his top priority, compared with just 29% who want him to focus on ending this war. Overall, President Biden's job approval stands at just 40%, with 55% disapproval. This is his worst showing yet in our poll since he became president. Meanwhile, Ukrainian forces have pushed back Russian troops, apparently forcing Russia at least publicly to claim that they're going to scale back their military goals and focus solely on the disputed territory in the east. Our chief foreign correspondent Richard Engel is actually in Eastern Ukraine now. And Richard, we know what the Russians say, right? But right after they say it, all of a sudden, missiles hit the west. What is really going on with the Russian military strategy?
RICHARD ENGEL:
Well, the Russian military strategy seems to be all over the place. And they've been having tremendous battlefield failures. And I think this claim by the Russian military command was a way to claim some success out of obvious failure, saying that their real focus is in the east. The east happens to be the only place where they've made some consolidated gains, particularly around the port city of Mariupol. So the one area that they are holding territory, they say that was their intention all along. But it is not clear at all that Vladimir Putin has given up on his overall war plan, which is to topple the government of Ukraine, to get rid of Zelenskyy. And I think that strike in Lviv showed that clearly. It may have also been a strike aimed at President Biden, a bit of an insult to say, "We're going to strike right near the Polish border while you're in Poland making some bold claims and making some insults at Vladimir Putin," calling him a butcher, among other things.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Richard, I'm curious. How did the presidential ad-lib that may go down in world history, how did that go over with President Zelenskyy?
RICHARD ENGEL:
Well, I don't think President Zelenskyy was overly impressed. President Zelenskyy spoke this morning and effectively accused western leaders, he didn't mention President Biden by name, of being all talk. And I'll read you just a translation of his comments from a short while ago. He was talking about Mariupol, a city which is surrounded. It has been under attack, yet it is still not collapsed. And he said, "I've spoken to the defenders of Mariupol. I'm in constant contact with them. Their determination, heroism, and firmness are astonishing." And then he went on to say, "If only those who have been thinking for 31 days on how to hand over dozens of jets and tanks had 1% of their courage." So he's saying that that meeting in NATO, which promised a lot of support, still isn't yielding the kind of results that Ukrainians want.
CHUCK TODD:
Richard Engel, who's in Eastern Ukraine right now. Richard, thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is Oksana Markarova. She's Ukraine's ambassador to the United States. Ambassador, welcome to Meet the Press.
AMB. OKSANA MARKAROVA:
Thank you for having me.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me start with the president's remarks yesterday. And I'm curious what you thought of the ad libbed remark when he said, "My gosh," you know, "Mr. Putin cannot remain in power." How did you receive that?
AMB. OKSANA MARKAROVA:
Well, you know, we heard President Biden loud and clear, that the U.S. will – is and will be with Ukraine in this fight. We clearly understand in Ukraine that anyone who's a war criminal, who attacks a neighboring country, who's doing all these atrocities together with all the Russians that are involved definitely cannot stay in power in a civilized world. Now, it's all up to all of us to stop Putin while it's still local in Ukraine because this war is not only about Ukraine. And this brutal aggression that is going on for 33 days now in every city of Ukraine, and especially in cities like Mariupol and the north of Kyiv and Kharkiv and others. It’s a brutal genocide, attempt to eliminate or exterminate the Ukrainian nation. But also, it's a, you know, attack on democracy, attack on anyone who wants to live peacefully in their own country.
CHUCK TODD:
President Zelenskyy seemed to say, "Hey, words are nice, but we need more than just words." What more, what more do you want the West to do? What are the asks? And not fulfilling these asks, what does this mean to Ukraine's ability to fight this war?
AMB. OKSANA MARKAROVA:
Look, let's look at the facts. For 33 days, Ukraine has defended itself and defended Europe from one of the largest countries, one of the brutalist – most brutal countries, and a nuclear power, an autocratic state. We have already surprised many with the fact that we will not surrender, that we are not only motivated to defend our homes, but we will stand our ground and we will defend every inch of our territory. We need tools and we need all kinds of weapons in order to be able to do so. So while we never ask our friends and partners for boots on the ground, I mean, we have the best boots on the ground, our armed forces --
CHUCK TODD:
You're not asking for American soldiers --
AMB. OKSANA MARKAROVA:
We are not --
CHUCK TODD:
– on the ground in Ukraine?
AMB. OKSANA MARKAROVA:
– asking for American soldiers. But we need all the support with all the weapons, including the anti-air, including the airplanes, everything, to stop this brutal destruction. I mean, if you look at everything that happens again, you know, use of bombs, use of missiles, use of prohibited by the Geneva Convention, weapons everywhere, leveling cities like Kharkiv, Mariupol and others – we need, you know, an unstoppable flow of supplies from everyone who's willing to give it to us in order to win.
CHUCK TODD:
Earlier this week, there was an accusation that Russia was using phosphorus bombs. Do you have any more evidence that you've used any chemicals or biological weapons against Ukrainians?
AMB. OKSANA MARKAROVA:
Well, we have the confirmed use of phosphorus. We have the confirmed use of cluster and everything else. We are winning everything, and there is no doubt in our minds that there are no red lines for Putin and his cronies. They are shooting at children, at maternity hospitals, at schools. They're destroying theaters. What would stop them?
CHUCK TODD:
What is the state of the negotiations with the Russians?
AMB. OKSANA MARKAROVA:
Well, you know, as we said from the beginning, we are ready to negotiate. We are ready to negotiate the humanitarian corridors, which we are trying to get to save people. We are also ready to negotiate always, but we are not ready to surrender. So any negotia --
CHUCK TODD:
What is on the table? I mean, obviously, the Russians don't want to walk away with nothing. At the same time, President Zelenskyy has said, you know, “The sovereignty of this country is – You know, we're not surrendering the sovereignty of this country." So what is negotiable in your view?
AMB. OKSANA MARKAROVA:
Well, it’s, the negotiations does not mean what Ukraine is ready to surrender. The negotiations mean that, you know, there should be a solution and push and diplomatic pressure to stop Russia. So no, we are not ready to give up our territories. We are not ready to give up our people. We are asking everyone who can put pressure on Putin or who can help us to bring him to the table to stop this war.
CHUCK TODD:
Can you imagine ever agreeing to recognize the Donbas region as an independent republic?
AMB. OKSANA MARKAROVA:
Well, there is no independent republics on the territory of Ukraine. Russia attacked us in 2014. Russia illegally occupied Crimea and part of Donetsk and Luhansk. Russia illegally waged a full-fledged war on the independent country now. And the question is bigger than that: can anyone – if there is a respectful sovereignty and territorial integrity, which is a firm basis for any U.N. charter or any international organization. So I think we shouldn't ask Ukraine what we are ready to give up in order for Russia to stop this aggression. All of us should be asking each, “What are we prepared to do to stop it" because if we lose this --
CHUCK TODD:
So --
AMB. OKSANA MARKAROVA:
– it's very important – if Ukraine loses it, it's not only Ukraine's loss. It means that brutality, oligarchy, and war criminals prevail on our planet.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me go back almost to the thing that we started our conversation with, which is can you live next door to somebody who tried to, tried to eliminate you? Is there, can you imagine this ending in some form of peace with Putin living next door?
AMB. OKSANA MARKAROVA:
Well, look, we have the experience in Europe with World War II. There was another Putin, or Putin is another Hitler, who tried to do this, attacked sovereign countries, closed the border, tried to eliminate. And the world post-World World II created a new security system which, apparently, is collapsing right now. So unless we together stop Putin and create new types of security guarantees, because we are not going to move from that place. And Russia is not.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you about our promise to take in 100,000 Ukrainian refugees. Is that enough? Should we be? Or are more – and can this, can this happen sooner rather than later?
AMB. OKSANA MARKAROVA:
We already see more than 3.6 million refugees in Europe everywhere. It's mostly women and children. And the majority of them want to go back. So the focus for us is sanctions, weapons so we can stop Putin, and start rebuilding Ukraine. But, of course, we are grateful for everyone. And I'm glad that the U.S. is joining also, you know, the group of countries that not only are helping us a lot with weapons and sanctions, but also opening the doors for Ukrainians. Now, whether it's going to be enough or not depends on how quickly we all act to stop the war. Let's focus on that. Let's stop the war so that there will not be more refugees.
CHUCK TODD:
It's a good way to end it. Ambassador, let's stop this war. Thanks for coming on and --
AMB. OKSANA MARKAROVA:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
– I appreciate it. And joining me now is Republican Senator Rob Portman of Ohio. He sits on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. He's traveled to the region numerous times just in the last few months. Senator, you and I have had lots of conversations about Ukraine. Welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. ROB PORTMAN:
Thanks, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me start with the president's remarks yesterday, an apparent ad lib, but it's a question I think I asked you on this. You know, can this end with Putin in power? And what did you make of the president's remarks?
SEN. ROB PORTMAN:
Well, first, I think all of us believe the world would be a better place without Vladimir Putin. But second, that's not the official U.S. policy. And by saying that, that regime changes our strategy eventually, it plays into the hands of the Russian propagandists and plays into the hands of Vladimir Putin. So it was a mistake. And the president recognized that and the White House has walked it back. By the way, they had to walk back three other comments he made as well. But look, we're in a crisis. We're in a war situation. And so clarity is incredibly important. And we need to be sure that we are also clear with our NATO allies because that's how we are stronger.
CHUCK TODD:
President Zelenskyy heard all of this week, and he just its – says for him, it's still talk. And I understand that he's in the middle of this war. He's watching innocent people get attacked and die. He wants some planes. He wants this ability to do a no-fly zone. Any movement in your head on this?
SEN. ROB PORTMAN:
Well, I think President Zelenskyy's correct. I thought the president's speech was very strong, despite the ad lib at the end – the gaffe at the end. But it was a powerful speech that does not match the action. So there was a mismatch between rhetoric and what we're actually doing. And that's the issue. And that's what President Zelenskyy was talking about because there are additional weapons that they're desperately needing that we are not yet providing, particularly any anti-air systems and more munitions for their own anti-air systems. But also, they're asking for anti-tank systems. They're asking for more anti-ship systems, which is really important right now because some of the missiles are coming from the Black Sea. They've asked for help across the board that is not yet there. And that's what President Zelenskyy's talking about. So we need to do more. We need to do it more quickly. We did send some Soviet-era anti-air craft systems, I'm told recently, at least based on public reporting, or at least it's on its way. But there are other systems that are more powerful, the S-300 in particular, that we have not sent. And we have that because we had acquired it at one point to be able to test it against the – our planes and so on. And we should send that. We should do everything we can do to facilitate these other countries that have these Warsaw Pact-era, you know, Soviet systems into Ukraine because that's what they desperately need, Chuck. And that's what the president's been asking for. We should also send some MiG-29s, to raise that issue again. It's been a few weeks now since the secretary of state gave that a green light, and somehow that hasn't happened. And the Ukrainians insist that they need it, they want it, it would be helpful. I think we need to trust them on that.
CHUCK TODD:
You heard the ambassador. Is – is – does phosphorus – the use of some phosphorus bombs to you cross that line on the use of chemical weapons to change NATO's calculus, or not?
SEN. ROB PORTMAN:
Well, if we can verify it, I think it is. I think the use of chemical weapons against innocent civilians is something where we have to draw a red line. We need to do it now. And we need to do it with our NATO allies. Recall we did this in Syria and did not honor the red line. This time, we've got to be darn sure that what we're doing is something that will be backed up by us, by our NATO allies. And I do think that's a red line. And I think chemical and biological weapons must be.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you believe – the response – I hear the words "proportionate." Define what “proportionate” in your mind would be?
SEN. ROB PORTMAN:
Well, the president said that we would respond in kind and later that was walked back because it sounded like he was saying, of course, we will respond with chemical weapons, which would not be appropriate. We've actually signed a treaty saying we would never do that, as has Russia, by the way. So, our response should be militarily, and I don't think we need to spell it out exactly, but there are a number of military responses that I could see. One would be to establish a humanitarian air defense zone in parts of western Ukraine, and that could be done from outside of the borders of Ukraine. That's an example where in the Lviv, where you have thousands of people who are there with the international relief organizations, lots of reporters, including from NBC, lots of refugees coming through – hundreds of thousands there. Yesterday, there was a bombing of Lviv, within a couple miles of the train station where there's so many refugees and so many of these westerners. So, we could through some means, since we have patriot missiles in Poland, in Romania, in Slovakia, protect some of that territory. That's an example of something that could be done militarily that would not be offensive, strictly defensive, no boots on the ground, but would enable us to say, “Use of chemical weapons or biological weapons has consequences, and we're going to do something about it.”
CHUCK TODD:
Let me turn to some domestic issues here – the Supreme Court. Have you made a decision on whether you're going to support Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson's elevation to the Supreme Court?
SEN. ROB PORTMAN:
Well, I've said all along I'm going to wait until the Judiciary Committee is done with its action. I think they're going to vote a week from Monday. They've still asked for additional documents, the Republicans on the committee. So I want to give them that ability. But as you know, Chuck, less than a year ago I voted against her for the Court of Appeals, and I did so because I'm concerned about her judicial philosophy. In particular for me, on the regulatory front, she had a case at the District Court level where, essentially, she legislated from the bench. It had to do with country of origin labeling for meat products. And she did what many of us think is wrong, which is say that, "The statute says one thing, but we're going to, as judges, decide what's best." And so that's my biggest concern. I talked to her about it. I've also talked to her about the Court packing issue, which does concern me. Her mentor, Justice Breyer, as well as Justice Ginsburg, both came out against packing the Court because of the interest in defending the institution of the Court, and yet she refuses to do that. I don't understand that because it's not an issue that will come before her in the Court, so she should, as a nominee, be able to talk about it. And I'm concerned that she's not been willing to do that.
CHUCK TODD:
I'm curious. I want to play a clip of some of the questioning she received from some of your Republican colleagues on the committee hearing. Here's the clip:
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEN. JOSH HAWLEY:
You say this does not signal a heinous or egregious child pornography offense. Help me understand that.
SENATOR TED CRUZ:
Do you agree with this book that is being taught with kids, that babies are racist?
JUDGE KETANJI BROWN JACKSON:
The ordinary crime was not committed by computer. So the --
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Would you now --
JUDGE KETANJI BROWN JACKSON:
– baseline --
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
--agree with me that computers are sort of the venue of choice for child pornographer people?
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Senator Mitt Romney thought some of the tone of the questioning and the topics were sort of off – off key there. I'm curious what you thought.
SEN. ROB PORTMAN:
Well, her record is fair game, Chuck. And this is not attacking her personally. By the way, I found her bright and personable when I met with her. She's obviously an historic choice for the Court. But I don't think it's wrong to go after her record. I mean, that's what we should be doing in these hearings. With Justice Kavanaugh, as you know, it became personal attacks. By the way, uncorroborated attacks. It was not about his record largely. This is about her record. And it's about her sentencing. It's not probably what I'm going to base my decision on because I think there are a lot of judges that have very lenient sentencing these days. I do think at a time of rising crime, particularly in our major cities, that's an issue. And she was below the recommendations based on the federal sentencing guidelines and also below, in some cases, what the probation officers recommend. So I think it's fair to ask about that. I think it should be done in a respectful way. And again, I'm glad that these were not personal attacks on her, which we have seen in previous nominations, including Judge Kavanaugh.
CHUCK TODD:
I’m curious if you believe Justice Thomas – these text messages that have come out from Ginni Thomas to the former White House chief of staff saying some bizarre conspiratorial things. It's not against the law to believe in conspiratorial things, but I'm curious, given the precedent that Loretta Lynch as attorney general, when she recused herself after a tarmac meeting with former President Clinton, that the Justice Department was looking into something involving Hillary Clinton, is that a precedent Justice Thomas should follow and recuse himself on January 6th cases?
SEN. ROB PORTMAN:
Well, I would respect his opinion on that. I don't know that he'll have the specific issue come before him about, you know, those records. That might be one where he would consider that. But, look, he's a jurist who has a lot of integrity. And I think he will make that decision. I don't think that what your spouse says should recuse you from, you know, whether it's in the legislative branch or in the judicial branch. That would be a new precedent. But I do think that if a case comes before him that's exactly on point, again as to probably records and whether they should be made available, that that might be an issue where he would think about it. But look, he's, he’s going to make that decision and he has the right to do it.
CHUCK TODD:
Senator Rob Portman, Republican from Ohio. Always appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us, sir. Thank you.
SENATOR ROB PORTMAN:
Thanks, Chuck. Thanks for having me.
CHUCK TODD:
You've got it. Coming up, I'm going to talk a little bit more about those Supreme Court hearings with Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson and the unusually aggressive questioning she faced. Senator Cory Booker will appear when we return.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Supreme Court confirmation hearings have become MRIs into the souls of our two political parties, and they're also apparently launching grounds for potential presidential campaigns. And as we mentioned, Republicans, still smarting over what they believe was the Democrats' unfair treatment of Brett Kavanaugh, tried to rattle Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson, especially with questions about her sentencing in a handful of child pornography cases. All of it prompted this response from Democrat Cory Booker.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Don't worry. God has got you. And how do I know that? Because you're here. And I know what it's taken for you to sit in that seat.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
And Senator Booker joins me now. Senator, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Thank you. Thanks for having me again.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, I want to talk about the confirmation hearings. But I want to ask you first about the president's remarks yesterday. There apparently were an ad lib remark that Vladimir Putin just can't remain in power. It's actually a question I've asked many people on this show over the last month, which is: how does this end with Putin in power? So the president, in many ways, may be speaking what we're all thinking. But those remarks, should he have said them?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Well, look, I think the administration has made it clear that the goal of the United States is not regime change in Russia. It's defending the extraordinary people of Ukraine and helping them in their, what I think is an existentially critical battle, not just for their country, but for free democracies around the world. So that's the focus right now. And I'm glad that not just the president and our government, but to see the American people rally to this cause, I think that that's what's important right now.
CHUCK TODD:
But let me ask you that other question. How does this end with Putin in power?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
I don't know. I mean, obviously, me and my colleagues have been hard at work at this and sitting with a lot of administration personnel. And I've heard it from the secretary of defense, to some of our top diplomatic leaders, that this is a very hard ending to see in any way for Putin to ultimately be, quote-unquote, "victorious" in this. This is either going to be a short conflict, but we're already seeing the other awful potential for the Ukrainian people, for this to drag on. But I don't see a real victory for him. His country is suffering extraordinarily. He is depleting critical resources from his own nation for this awful war. So I just don't see how this ends well for him.
CHUCK TODD:
President Zelenskyy continues to believe we're not providing enough assistance, when he says "we" meaning the West, the NATO alliance. He wants a no-fly zone. He wants some more planes. At what point does watching this targeting of civilians make you think it may be time for us to intervene?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
So I just want to start where you ended. I mean, what you're seeing within the Ukrainian people, first of all, awful, awful, horrific things going on as civilians are being targeted, schools and hospitals, places where people are sheltering. You're also seeing the incredible strength of the Ukrainian people, their resolve and heroism, especially obviously with their leader. And so the United States has got to continue its global leadership, what we're doing right now, which is uniting free democracies for this defense. And I think we need to continue to up the level of commitment we're giving, both in humanitarian assistance, which is critical, but as well as military assistance. And I think that one of the reasons why Russia is having such a difficult time is partly in part because of how well we have supported and equipped the Ukrainian Defense Forces.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me move to how you spent most of your week in the confirmation hearings for Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson. What did the American public learn this week?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
I think that they saw an extraordinarily magnificent judge who showed what her temperament is, her grit, obviously her endurance of mind and body and soul. But I think they really got a chance, especially under a lot of Democratic questioning and some Republicans, of her mastery of the law and how she is more than qualified for this position.
CHUCK TODD:
You seemed to leave out sort of the circus-like stuff that the hearings turned into a little bit. And I guess it does feel as if this process is broken. And every time we wonder, "Can these hearings get more partisan?" you know, they get more partisan. And I'll see the finger pointing. "This party started it. This party started it." Whatever it is, this system seems broken. What do we do?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Well, look, I'm not going to surrender to that conclusion in the sense of, having gone through Amy Coney Barrett's nomination as well as Gorsuch's, I think there was a lot of frustration among Democrats clearly for what happened with Merrick Garland. I think that we've seen sort of the legitimacy of the Court really suffer partly as a result of the tactics that we've seen going on in the Senate. But having gone through Amy Coney Barrett and Justice Gorsuch, I don't think that that's a simple conclusion. There were extraordinary realities in the Kavanaugh hearings that I think demanded for that to be as contentious as it was, and not just allowing it to go through without these extraordinary sort of realities coming to the fore and being investigated. So what we saw though this week was, to me, outrageous and beyond the pale, and very different than what I've witnessed in my short time in the Senate seeing three different confirmation hearings. And I think that what my, some of my colleagues did was just sad, frankly. But again, you had a jurist, a justice, excuse me there, you had a judge there, that dealt with it in an extraordinary way and showed America who she is, despite the outrageousness of the questioning.
CHUCK TODD:
Considering that she's gone through confirmation hearings before before that very committee, the only difference was the TV cameras. That's the only thing I can come up with.
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
I think you are, I think you make one of the best points that pointed to the absurdity of it for me, which was: she was already appointed to the D.C. Circuit Court, which many people call the second most powerful court in our land, and none of this came out. None of this behavior was evident. None of these questions, which I frankly believe, given the endorsements of law enforcement, victims' rights groups and others, really cast a shadow over the whole ridiculous line of questioning that many of my colleagues did. It's just outrageous that they didn't bring this up less than a year ago, when she was going through a confirmation hearing. She's a bipartisan-supported judge multiple times with the Senate. And I think people should keep that understanding clear.
CHUCK TODD:
The other issue involving the Supreme Court this week are these Ginni Thomas texts. There’s a lot of calls that say that Justice Thomas needs to recuse himself. We saw what happened when former President Bill Clinton met then Attorney General Loretta Lynch on a tarmac. We had, at the time, the Justice Department was looking in at something about Hillary Clinton. There was outrage on the right for recusal, and the attorney general recused herself. Is this a similar situation? Should Justice Thomas follow the Loretta Lynch precedent?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
I mean, let's go to the Kay Hagan [Elena Kagan] precedent. She got onto the Court in the year, I think it was 2010 to 2011. Out of 70-some cases, she recused herself over 20 times because – not necessarily because she was conflicted, but because she understood that even the appearance of impropriety would delegitimize the Court. And the Court needs that legitimacy in this nation. So clearly, Justice Thomas should have recused himself. That's not even at question here. And I think that we also – more of a thorough investigation to better understand exactly what has happened with the judge's wife.
CHUCK TODD:
Is there anything Congress can do, or is that a separation of powers issue?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
I think that we have a lot of problems with separation of power issues. And I have a lot of frustrations with the Supreme Court as a whole, that they have not taken better measures to police themselves. There are ethics rules that they hold lower courts responsible for, that they don't put upon themselves. And I think most of America doesn't understand that I could be a justice and I could give a paid speech in front of a group that has either a direct matter in front of the Supreme Court, or has amicus briefs in front of the Supreme Court. There are a lot of ethics rules that they do not, have not put upon themselves that are just common sense and ultimately lead to a delegitimized court. And I think that they need to use this Thomas affair as an opportunity to change their ethics rules.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. Senator Cory Booker, Democrat from New Jersey. I think a lot of us would like to make sure everybody's wearing black robes, not red or blue robes. Anyway, Senator, thanks for coming on and sharing your perspective.
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Amen.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, we've got a lot to discuss: Ukraine, Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson, those text messages from the wife of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas. Panel is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back, panelists here: Yamiche Alcindor, moderator of Washington Week on PBS and, of course, an NBC News Washington correspondent; former Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson; Stephen Hayes, editor of The Dispatch; and USA Today Washington bureau chief, Susan Page. Susan, the comment, the ad lib heard round the world, literally. Walking it back? Saying it, everybody seems to agree, was not the right thing to say at the moment. But everybody was thinking it.
SUSAN PAGE:
Well, true, though, a Washington gaffe, as we were saying, where you accidentally say what everyone already agrees is true, but distracting. What are we talking about today? Not the impassioned sense of democracy that the president delivered, but his final nine words where he seemed to be calling for regime change; distracting, undisciplined. And we'll find out whether it is dangerous, whether it is damaging, whether it causes some kind of reaction from Moscow that would not have been coming just as a result of calling Putin a butcher and a war criminal.
CHUCK TODD:
Quite the walkback?
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
It's quite the walkback. And you have the White House really making it very clear that he was not advocating regime change. You had Secretary Blinken come out in Israel also saying that. But there's also a sense that this was a window into what President Biden really thinks and feels. This is after he was holding refugee children. This is after he has met with all these people. And this is after he called President Putin a butcher and a dictator. So, in some ways, the logical conclusion, apart from, of course, official U.S. policy would be the average thinking of course he should not be in power. That said, it is distracting as Susan said, because now the White House and Republicans, and you see Rob Portman, calling it a mistake, and others jumping on the idea that he made a gaffe.
JEH JOHNSON:
I'm going to dissent. I'm not sure I would've walked it back. He's a war criminal. He's slaughtering innocent men, women and children. He illegally invaded Ukraine. And he has got command and control of nuclear weapons. Such a person should not remain in power.
CHUCK TODD:
So he's lost his legitimacy in your mind?
JEH JOHNSON:
More than lost his legitimacy. And at most, I would've modified the statement by saying it's not a statement of our policy; it's just simply a statement of fact. I'd like to see us, at some point, get to a place where we're not constantly disclaiming the line over which we will not cross. And he said it. You know, presidents every once in a while do say things that ad lib. Reagan was famous --
CHUCK TODD:
Evil empire, right, which that got --
JEH JOHNSON:
Evil empire.
CHUCK TODD:
– rattled their cages, right?
JEH JOHNSON:
The bombing starts in five minutes. Remember that?
CHUCK TODD:
Right, yeah.
JEH JOHNSON:
So it was a statement of fact. Virtually everyone agrees. Everyone in the Western world agrees.
STEPHEN HAYES:
Yeah, I think everything the secretary says about Vladimir Putin is correct. I mean, clearly, he shouldn't be in power. It's one thing to say something true; it's another thing to wonder whether it was wise to say it. And this does, as Senator Portman points out, play right into Russian propaganda about the U.S., about the West, about NATO. They have long made the argument that NATO is an offensive alliance that represents a threat to Vladimir Putin, represents a threat to Russian sovereignty, and the U.S. has said, no, no, that's not what we're about. This seems to, I think, feed that. And that's a concern. It also has a domestic effect. If you look at the number of times that President Biden has had to walk back things on this trip, three significant statements on this trip alone, and then you go back further and talk about his comment about a minor incursion, he has said things repeatedly that show I think the lack of discipline that some people had about – concerns about President Biden, or Joe Biden as a candidate.
SUSAN PAGE:
And, you know, that may be one reason you had that incredible 71% in your new poll that Americans did not have confidence in President Biden --
CHUCK TODD:
I was surprised --
SUSAN PAGE:
– to handle the situation --
CHUCK TODD:
– by the size of that number.
SUSAN PAGE:
That includes some of his supporters. That includes a fair number of Democrats. And the idea that White House officials, first anonymously and then the Secretary of State, have to come back and clean something up I think reinforces the idea of “does the president-- can we trust him to respond in a competent way to this war?”
JEH JOHNSON:
And of course, never happened during the Trump administration.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
Well, it's particularly concerning when you think about the fact --
CHUCK TODD:
I think we're numb to it, by the way, as a public these days. But anyway, go ahead.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
Well, it's particularly concerning when you look at that 71% number and think that this was the president who ran on the idea that he was going to come with the A-team. He was going to come with all this experience. And now, Americans are saying we're not confident in your policies. I think it was also interesting that, in this poll, you saw the domestic politics at play when it comes to thinking of who do people blame for the inflation and prices. They're not blaming Russia. They're blaming Biden; President Biden's policies. That also is something that is, in some ways, concerning to White House officials.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, I looked up the 1942 midterms didn't go well for FDR and the Democrats, for what it's worth. We are sometimes always about our pocketbook, Jeh.
JEH JOHNSON:
Yes. And as my friend, the late Andy Kohut, used to say, when it comes to polls, with all due respect to NBC, it depends on how you ask the questions. If you ask Americans the binary choice between the economy i.e. my wallet versus something else, they're almost always going to say the economy is more important.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah. And yet, the president's focus actually has to be on the war Steve.
STEPHEN HAYES:
It does. I mean, it has to be on the war. And I think part of the reason that he's struggling on the economy is, one, we're not seeing any improvement; and two, he's not willing to do the kinds of things, I think both with respect to the war and the economy, that might actually help. I mean, if you talk about an all-in energy policy that would address some of the things that we're seeing come out of Russia and potentially forestall some of the inflation, he could make the case. But I don't think his base will let him.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, I want to bring up that – you brought up the poll numbers of President Biden. On the “who do you blame on inflation,”I just want to put it out here. Because, you know, the most generous way you could look at it, Susan, is, well, only 38% blame President Biden and a majority blame something else. But that's about all you could do. What's interesting is that only 6% blame the Russian invasion of Ukraine. And that was a specific thing the president said.
SUSAN PAGE:
Well, and, of course, inflation was becoming a problem before Russia invaded Ukraine. Although, it's clearly jacked up gas prices and had some other effects. But this is a great concern to the White House. You know, three of the last four presidents have lost control of the House of Representatives in their first midterm election. And is there anybody in Washington who doesn't think that's going to happen in November?
CHUCK TODD:
Well, it's funny. And, Yamiche, I'm going to put up our generic ballot test here. The public's going to look at it. You'll see 46/44; Republicans up by two. That's a coin flip. This is the first time we've had Republicans leading on the generic ballot in our poll since September of 2014; eight years ago. There's always a little bit of a Democratic – because Democrats are more packed in some districts here. This is a huge red flag.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
It's a huge red flag. And it is coupled with the idea that people are blaming President Biden's policies for inflation. It's coupled with the idea that Americans are still very, very concerned about how much they're paying for so many other things; not just gas. And that also is, I think, part of the reason why when you ask people right now, they're essentially saying that Republicans are the ones who they trust with the economy. That's going to be a hard thing for Democrats to overcome and to message about.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah. Well, and this tax gas issue; a regressive tax. It impacts people harder farther down the socioeconomic ladder. As we go to break, we want to remember Madeleine Albright, who died on Wednesday. As a young girl, Albright and her family fled then Czechoslovakia twice; once on the brink of World War II, and then again when the communists overthrew the Czech government in 1948. She grew up to become the U.S. representative to the United Nations and the first-ever woman Secretary of State. She was raised a Catholic and did not learn until late in life that her family was actually Jewish, but had to keep that heritage a secret because of the Second World War. Albright appeared on Meet the Press 23 times, including this moment from 1997.
[BEGIN TAPE]
MADELEINE ALBRIGHT:
People have asked me if I ever thought this was possible. Did I ever think that I, Madeleine Korbel, at that stage, 11 years old, coming to the United States, could ever be Secretary of State? I would've said absolutely not. So, I have achieved my highest ambitions, except for one, and that is to do the very best job that it's possible to do.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Madeleine Albright was 84.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Public schools have become a new front in the country's culture wars. Parents frustrated with how schools handled masking and closings during the height of Covid began attending school board meetings and launched a drive to remove books, change the curriculum and have a lot more say in their child's education. Republican Glenn Youngkin rode that anger to win the governor's race in Virginia. And the GOP is looking to duplicate Youngkin's success in this year's midterm elections all over the country. In a new report for our news magazine show, Meet the Press Reports, our senior national correspondent, Kate Snow, traveled to Brevard County, Florida, to see how one community is dealing with this new front in the culture wars.
[BEGIN TAPE]
KATE SNOW:
On this night, public comments centered on removing books deemed inappropriate from school libraries.
MALE VOICE:
Just because it's a description of sex doesn't necessarily make it pornographic.
KATE SNOW:
Chairwoman Misty Belford opens every meeting asking people to behave.
MISTY BELFORD:
You may be escorted, detained or arrested, depending on the conduct.
KATE SNOW:
Belford has served on the board for eight years. I heard you, at the start of the meeting, lay out the rules and say, "If we have to, we will arrest people."
MISTY BELFORD:
Uh-huh (AFFIRM).
KATE SNOW:
It's a pretty dramatic thing to say at a school board meeting.
MISTY BELFORD:
It is. And it's disheartening that we have to say that. But we had, for a while there, some pretty raucous meetings.
KATE SNOW:
You had a meeting in October where you had to literally kick everybody out.
MISTY BELFORD (RECORDED):
We are going to clear the room.
MISTY BELFORD:
We did. The audience started to get very loud and it was reaching the point of being unsafe.
KATE SNOW:
Belford is worried about the impact on teachers and administrators.
MISTY BELFORD:
I am blessed to be serving a group of 9,000 people that wake up every single day and pour their heart and soul -- sorry.
KATE SNOW:
What upsets you?
MISTY BELFORD:
Our people are getting beat up. And there is no more noble job. And you won't find a group more committed to our kids. And they are fallout in all of this, unfortunately.
KATE SNOW:
You pulled your son out of the Brevard public county, out of the Brevard schools?
TINA DESCOVICH:
Yeah. Well, I was on the school board. We voted to mandate masks and other Covid policies that I didn't agree with for children.
KATE SNOW:
A few weeks later, conservative school board member, Tina Descovich, was ousted. She formed Moms for Liberty in December, 2020. Did you sort of see an opening? Like, a need?
TINA DESCOVICH:
Absolutely. Parental rights constantly get stepped on. Stepped on. But the bigger problem was parental neglect. Parents were not involved, not checked in.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Tina Descovich's group, Moms for Liberty, now has chapters in 34 states and wants to make a huge impact on the midterms. You can see our entire Meet the Press Reports episode, and all of our previous shows, anytime on Peacock. Binge it now. When we come back, the QAnon conspiracy, did it really make its way into a Supreme Court confirmation hearing? Just might have. Stay tuned.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. While the president was overseas dealing with the war in Ukraine, here in Washington, we were consumed by the confirmation hearings for Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson. I want to put up a little analysis we did of key terms that were mentioned in the hearings just by the questioners, not by the respondents.
CHUCK TODD:
We compared Judge Jackson with Justice Kagan. On abortion – instances of key terms, abortion or Roe, about two to one: 72 mentions versus Kagan, 36. You see on guns there were more for Kagan, 69, than for Jackson. Now, I'm going to put up the other terms that we got. Child pornography: 94 instances here for Judge Jackson, none for Elena Kagan. What did we observe this week?
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
What we saw this week, if you talk to critics of the Republicans, is really Republicans leaning in on QAnon conspiracy theories and using the thing that they thought would land, both for their own political futures but also for sort of the cameras in the room and try to attack Judge Jackson on her sentencing. If you look, there have been a number of fact checks that say she is in the mainstream of sentencing here. We also saw, I should say if we back up, 233 years, a Black woman sitting being a nominee for Supreme Court and being poised and answering questions that were not really related to her work as a judge but more the partisan politics.
CHUCK TODD:
What did you observe?
JEH JOHNSON:
Chuck, I believe Supreme Court nomination hearings have become a national embarrassment. I watched these, and I'm embarrassed for our country. I'm embarrassed for the nominee. You take a sitting federal judge who's a very serious, intelligent person, and you throw that person in the middle of a circus. I can just see that – and I'm referring to both Ketanji Brown Jackson and Amy Coney Barrett. You could just see the looks on their face. They're thinking to themselves, "I can't wait to get across the street with the adults. I'll never do this again." It's become a national embarrassment.
CHUCK TODD:
Steve?
STEPHEN HAYES:
Yes. I mean, I think – I don't know if Josh Hawley was pushing child pornography questions because he's appealing to QAnon, but it's very clear that Republicans have a problem with conspiracy theories in the party right now.
CHUCK TODD:
25 percent of Republicans identify with these QAnon beliefs that essentially says all of us here at this table are part of some child pedophile ring.
STEPHEN HAYES:
I think a majority of Republicans reject QAnon. I think they reject a lot of these election conspiracies. But it's clear that the base of the Republican Party, there's a strain that believes in this stuff. And if you go to Josh Hawley's website right now, he's hawking a mug that has a picture of him raising his fist on January 6th to the protestors before the riot that day. If you look at what he said January 4th when he was asked about, you know, whether President Trump was going to be remaining president, he said, "Well, we'll have to see what happens on January 6th." That's clearly playing to a conspiracy mindset. And if you look at things like Kevin McCarthy not throwing out, not going after Marjorie Taylor Greene – leader of the House Republicans not going after Marjorie Taylor Greene, not going after Paul Gosar who went to a conference led by an open racist, but training their fire on Liz Cheney, who is fighting the people who are amplifying these conspiracy theories, I do think it tells you a lot about the problems with the Republican Party.
CHUCK TODD:
Susan?
SUSAN PAGE:
Hey, the John Birch Society was extremist. QAnon is something entirely different. QAnon believes that there is a Satan-worshiping cult of child pedophiles running the country. That is beyond crazy. And the idea that one out of four Republicans say they endorse or believe some of that theory is shocking to me.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
And the idea that you saw 2024 hopefuls leaning into that though is shocking but also not surprising because they were – in some ways you could see the political commercials almost being made in real time.
CHUCK TODD:
I got to quickly – we don't have a lot of time. Justice Thomas, do we think he'll recuse himself to January 6th cases?
JEH JOHNSON:
Supreme Court justices are very isolated. They make their own choices on these issues. You know, we're approaching the Ginni Thomas issue like an appearance issue: the appearance of somehow a taint. More significant as a lawyer is the possibility that some of her texts – and I don't know this to be true – some of those texts could have been in that pile from the National Archives that Justice Thomas had to rule on, in which case his spouse has a direct interest in the case.
CHUCK TODD:
It is the appearance though that also is a problem. We need black robes, folks, not red and blue. Anyway, that's all we have for today. Thank you for watching. This network is rooting for the Peacocks. This moderator's rooting for the ‘Canes. We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.