CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday, party boss. Donald Trump previews his vision for a second term – an agenda that proved divisive with swing voters in 2022.
KAITLAN COLLINS:
Would you sign a federal abortion ban into law?
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
What I will do is negotiate so that people are happy.
CHUCK TODD:
After a town hall peddling election lies, promising to pardon January 6th rioters and refusing to pick sides in the war in Ukraine - his 2024 rivals remain largely silent.
KAITLAN COLLINS:
Can you say if you want Ukraine or Russia to win this war?
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I want everybody to stop dying.
CHUCK TODD:
As the field of challengers grows, can any of his rivals take him on without alienating his supporters? I'll talk to former Republican Congressman Will Hurd of Texas who is considering his own bid for president in 2024. Plus, moral compass. After a jury found Trump liable for sexual abuse, his opponents – mostly silent.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I just don’t think it’s where the American people are focused.
CHUCK TODD:
Does character matter anymore for Republican primary voters? I'll ask Russell Moore, the Editor-in-Chief of Christianity Today. And, border crisis.
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
I want to be very clear. Our borders are not open.
CHUCK TODD:
As the Biden administration braces for a surge at the southern border, it’s Democrats that are divided.
SEN. JON TESTER:
I oppose the Biden administration plan to end Title 42.
CHUCK TODD:
Will the president listen to his base or those close to the political center? I'll talk to Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut. Joining me for insight and analysis are: New York Times White House Correspondent Peter Baker, Politico Playbook co-author Rachael Bade, Republican strategist Al Cárdenas and Kimberly Atkins Stohr, Senior Opinion Writer for The Boston Globe. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning and a Happy Mother's Day to all the moms out. What we saw this week is a Republican Party that is paralyzed by Donald Trump. Elected Republicans and Trump's 2024 rivals are eager to move on, but not sure how to take on Trump and they're terrified of alienating his supporters. It makes them desperate to follow the voters rather than trying to lead them and the paralysis is – in the party has been key to Donald Trump's strength. In Iowa Saturday, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, who's having to reboot his campaign before it's even gotten off the ground, invited a political columnist to Tallahassee last week, letting reporters know he does plan to announce really, really soon and yet he tiptoed around this criticism of Trump never mentioning him by name.
[START TAPE]
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
We must reject the culture of losing that has infected our party in recent years. The time for excuses is over. If we get distracted or if we focus the election on the past or on other side issues, then I think the Democrats are going to beat us again.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
DeSantis came to Iowa with all the presidential trappings. He even had a bus wrapped with the words join “Team DeSantis for President,” but it is an open question whether Trump supporters even accept the premise that DeSantis was arguing there, that Donald Trump has been losing. And this week after Trump was found liable for sexual abuse, his 2024 opponents barely blinked. Perhaps spooked by the Republican reaction to the Manhattan indictment. Even Mike Pence who rose to political prominence, arguing that a president of the United States should be held to the highest moral standards, defended him.
[START TAPE]
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
It's just one more story, focusing on my former running mate that I know is a great fascination to members of the national media but I just don't think it's where the American people are focused.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Well, whether it's the American people or Republican primary voters, in our recent NBC News poll, a whopping 68% of Republican primary voters believe the multiple investigations into Trump are politically motivated, and that Republicans need to defend him. Perhaps Pence is simply responding to those numbers, because there was just 26% who said the party needs to find a different nominee who won't be distracted. The Republican Party, which once impeached a president over an affair with an intern, no longer finds moral wrongdoings disqualifying. Trump's rivals also had very little say when he sketched out a second term vision, which is likely to turn off swing voters during the televised town wall this week. He called the January 6 insurrection a beautiful day, said he would pardon many of the January 6 rioters, embraced the possibility of a default if democrats don't agree to massive cuts. He even refused to answer whether he wants Russia or Ukraine to win the war in Ukraine right now or to even say whether Putin is committing war crimes or as a war criminal. Trump said he was so honored to be the one to terminate Roe v Wade and he also refused to commit to accepting the results of the 2024 elections. So right now, the only person Donald Trump appears to be helping is Joe Biden, who's polling problems would be magnified without the circus that surrounds Trump. To be sure, President Biden has plenty of challenges and this is likely to start a very difficult summer with both the border and debt ceiling testing him and the best case scenario for the White House is that the uncomfortable compromises that they're likely to have to make, simply do no further political damage. With Biden struggling in the polls, Democrats running in competitive Senate races, including Kyrsten Sinema, an independent who caucuses with them, are finding it easier to criticize him right now.
[START TAPE]
SEN. KYRSTEN SINEMA:
They made the decision to end title 42 today. They also made the decision to not prepare for the end of title 42.
SEN. JON TESTER:
I oppose the Biden administration plan to end title 42 this week without a real plan in place for the strain it will put on an already broken immigration system
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut. Senator Murphy, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Yeah, thanks for having me.
CHUCK TODD:
So let’s – this Title 42 issue. Look, this has the fingerprints of all of Congress on it. This has the fingerprints of two presidential administrations. So what could be done right now that would give you confidence that the administration can handle this?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
So, Title 42 is required to be lifted, by law, right? Title 42 allows you, during a pandemic, to stop individuals from presenting at the border and applying for asylum. And now that the pandemic is over, the president doesn't have discretion to keep Title 42 in place. So, for all of these Republicans who are complaining that the president acts outside of his authority, in this case, they seemingly want him to violate the law and turn people around at the border. The president has not been sitting on his hands, like Republicans would allege. The president has actively – has been actively engaged in trying to manage this crisis. He has negotiated important agreements with Mexico so that Mexico takes more of these migrants. He has surged thousands of troops and asylum officials, and border patrol to the border to handle this emergency. And he's put in place a really tough new rule that some frankly say goes beyond his authority to say to migrants, "If you don't apply for asylum before you get to the United States, we're going to turn you right back around.” Now, that doesn't mean that you aren't still going to have a lot of people showing up at the border because that's just the consequence of having two years in which males, single adults, couldn't apply for asylum. But it's just simply not true that the president hasn't done enough to try to be as ready as possible.
CHUCK TODD:
I understand what you're saying about the preparation for this moment. But politically, other than introducing a bill on day one, he never talked about it, he didn't lean his shoulder in. Build Back Better was the focus. Everything else was the focus. And, look, the Republicans have dirtier hands on immigration, I’ve already said it. But the Democrats don't have clean hands on this, either.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Well, Republicans have had multiple opportunities to come to the table and pass immigration reform that would fix the problem at the border. And my belief is that while you have a small group of Republicans who legitimately want to engage, the majority of that party delights at chaos at the border. You saw some of my colleagues on Tuesday. As soon as votes were done, rush down to the border to take smiling photographs with the border patrol, essentially celebrating the fact that there was chaos because they believe that there was political gain to be had. So I think Americans know that it's Republicans, not Democrats, that have been sitting on the outside when it comes to fixing our broken immigration system.
CHUCK TODD:
Are you supportive of reinstituting Title 42? There's a bill in the Senate that could do that. It's gotten a little more support from Democrats, particularly ones that are on the ballot in 2024, which actually you are, too, though not in as purple of a state as others. Would you be reluctantly supportive of that if you thought it was a tool they needed?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
I – I'm not because that just pushes the problem down the line. Like, that just gives you one or two more years of individuals being denied entry. Whenever Title 42 is lifted, you are going to have this temporary prob – problem of massive numbers of new people arriving at the border. And, by the way, Republicans have been castigating the president for not lifting COVID restrictions fast enough. The only COVID restriction Republicans seem to want to keep in place is the one that keeps people from – people that don't look like them from coming into the United States.
CHUCK TODD:
Why do think the economic argument hasn't worked to get Republicans to the table? Because you can – our inflation, our inflation problem, it’s – you can make one case on the free money issue with the Fed. You can make some case there. But the real issue is that we have a labor shortage. And it's, it’s, it’s, it’s having an issue on wages. That is our economic problem. Yet, it has no impact.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
So, despite my tough words for how Republicans approach this issue, I think there is still an opportunity, at least in the Senate, for bipartisan immigration reform. Maybe not the size of the bill in 2013, but I do think there are a group of Republicans in the Senate who recognize that we have this massive labor shortage. Everywhere in the country, you see, help wanted signs. And that there is an ability to help the American economy by letting more people into the country legally. So, I wouldn't be surprised if you see some discussions begin in the Senate in the wake of the House action last week to try to find some common ground on immigration reform.
CHUCK TODD:
You think that in a piecemeal direction – it's always going to be piecemeal, at this point; the word comprehensive, just throw it away?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Yeah. I think right now, you've got to do the pieces that are most urgent. And, to me, that's border security. That's asylum reform. And then, that's doing something about the Dreamers who are here and need some help.
CHUCK TODD:
Debt ceiling, it looks like the White House is now negotiating. Something you didn't want to see, spending caps are on the table. They're debating between two years, ten years. Are you comfortable with a deal like that or do you think if you're going to cut a deal on spending, that maybe ought to – tax hikes ought to be a part of this?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Well, if we want to get serious about deficit reduction, then you have to put tax increases for billionaires and corporations on the table. That's why I'm pretty skeptical that there's going to be an agreement in the next two weeks. And what worries me –
CHUCK TODD:
– Even a punted agreement for three months?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Well, what worries me is that Chuck Schumer, Joe Biden, even Mitch McConnell have said that, "If we can't get an agreement in the next few weeks, default is off the table." The only leader who says, "We are going to light the American economy on fire if we can't get an agreement in the next ten to 14 days," is Kevin McCarthy. And that is deeply worrying to me because there's an opportunity to talk about their really unpopular agenda of cuts, but the time to do that is when we're negotiating the budget.
CHUCK TODD:
Is – would you start invoking the 14th amendment and start paying the bills now if you were Joe Biden in order to essentially launch the legal discussion about the 14th amendment?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
You know, I don't want to give Joe Biden advice, but I think we should do our job. I think that's a precedent to just absolve Congress from being adults.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to talk about the issue of guns. And, look, this has been something that you've been working on for quite some time, trying to find small increases in gun regulations or big ones. We saw another court ruling that essentially invoked and said, "Hey there's just not much you can do because of the Second Amendment, this absolutist version and, and interpretation of the Second Amendment." Given that we have a court system that this is what it's going to be, how do you tackle gun regulation under this environment? Do you go for a new consti – a new constitutional amendment or do you just hope judges' philosophies change over the next generation?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Right now, the Supreme Court has made it clear, under Heller Decision, which still controls, they say there is a right to private gun ownership, but there is also an ability for Congress to regulate who owns weapons and what kind of weapons are owned. I think we have to continue to operate under that construct. And I’m – and I really see progress, right? We broke a 30-year log jam last year by passing the first major gun safety initiative. You have seen Republican states like Tennessee looking at red flag laws, Texas considering raising the age to buy assault weapons. I think our movement is in a position to win. Does it worry me, what some of these district courts are doing? Absolutely. But right now, I think our focus is about – has got to be about growing the movement and continuing to capitalize on the progress of last year.
CHUCK TODD:
But it does sound like you've got to do it within the construct of, "Look. You're probably not going to be able to regulate much having to do with access to the gun by anybody over 18."
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Well, listen, if the Supreme Court eventually says that states or the Congress can't pass universal background checks or can't take these weapons off the streets, I think there's going to be a popular revolt over that policy. A court that's already pretty illegitimate is going to be in full crisis mode.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to put up something from our last poll. A majority thought that President Biden shouldn't seek a second term, and even Democrats, and they all pointed to the same thing: his age and his abilities to do the job. What gives you confidence that he's the best candidate that Democrats can put up in 2024?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
So, when we broke that 30-year log jam, 30 years of inaction on guns, there was a month in which we were negotiating that piece of legislation. Joe Biden was intimately involved in that process. I talk to Joe Biden probably every three or four days. He made a bold decision to go to the country and speak directly to them when many of his advisers told him not to. That bill would not have passed with Joe Biden's personal involvement. And so I have seen how effective this president is. And this narrative that Republicans are spinning is just their best argument against him because they can't argue on the merits, they can't argue on the policies that he's passed because he's had one of the most successful policy agendas of any president in their first two to three years.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think that will translate into defeating Donald Trump if Donald Trump is nominated?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
And, and what Joe Biden reminds us that elections are not a referendum, they are a choice. And as you pointed out, Donald Trump is advertising every single day what an irresponsible choice he is.
CHUCK TODD:
Chris Murphy, Democrat from Connecticut. Appreciate you coming on –
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
– sharing your perspective on this. Thank you, sir. When we come back, he wants his party to move on from Trump, but says no one is taking him on effectively. I'm going to talk to former Republican Congressman Will Hurd, who is considering his own race for president in 2024.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. As Donald Trump's 2024 Republican rivals struggle with how to challenge him, one potential candidate says no one in the current field is taking him on effectively. Will Hurd served as a CIA officer in the clandestine service for nearly a decade. He worked as a senior advisor to a cybersecurity firm. He represented Texas's 23rd district, which is on the border between the U.S. and Mexico, in the House of Representatives for three terms before choosing to leave in 2021. While in Congress, he famously drove 1,600 miles from San Antonio to D.C. with then-Democratic Congressman Beto O'Rourke, streaming their bipartisan road trip on Facebook Live after their flights were canceled because of a snowstorm. It was a reminder of the way politics used to work around here. After 19 children and two teachers were killed in the Uvalde mass shooting in his former district, Hurd again called for universal background checks and a federal red flag law. Now, Hurd is calling for a reboot of the Republican Party, and he is thinking about his own presidential run, and has already made stops in Iowa and New Hampshire. And the former Republican Congressman Will Hurd joins me now. Congressman Hurd, welcome back to Meet the Press.
FMR. REP. WILL HURD:
Thanks for having me. And Chuck, can I also join you in wishing all these moms Happy Mother's Day.
CHUCK TODD:
Absolutely.
FMR. REP. WILL HURD:
I was a mama's boy. And to all the moms that are watching your show, even if your kids don't tell you enough, you're awesome, so.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah. I have texted my mother already this morning. Right, Mom? Anyway, let me start with what we saw this week. You have -- one of your cases for running is that you don't think other people are making an effective case. Why do you think what happened to Donald Trump in that E. Jean Carroll trial just sort of went away, was almost dismissed out of hand as being irrelevant to the decision-making of whether he should be the nominee of the GOP?
FMR. REP. WILL HURD:
I can't give you a clear answer on why that didn't impact more people, but here's what I do know: Even people that like Donald Trump and were proud to vote for him think that Donald Trump has a lot of baggage that's going to hurt Republicans' chances in 2024. A lot of those voters believe that Donald Trump's mouth gets in the way, and prevents us from talking about issues that matter. You said at the top of your show, the GOP lost the House in 2018, we lost the Senate and the White House in 2020. The red wave that should have happened in 2022 didn't happen. And all of that is because of Donald Trump.
CHUCK TODD:
Isn't this the information ecosystem, though? His voters -- because this is where -- you heard Governor DeSantis make this case, "Hey, aren't you tired of losing?" But his voters don't believe he lost. Like, this is part of the issue, isn't it?
FMR. REP. WILL HURD:
It's part of the issue. But here's the reality, the election's not today, right? I think this -- the fact that in that CNN town hall, he was just looking backwards. He's not looking to the future. He's not looking about, "How do we tackle things like inflation?" What would he put forward to create -- solve the border crisis? How are we going to make sure that America stays the most important country in the world? If we're constantly looking backwards, that's a losing strategy. But the election is many months away.
CHUCK TODD:
You sound like a candidate in the before times, before there was Trump. I mean I, look, before Donald Trump came along I would've said, "Hey, the candidate that speaks more optimistically always wins." That is not what happened. He has totally inverted both the idea if you don’t talk about the – the candidates that don't talk about the future usually get punished. He doesn't. Why do you think this is?
FMR. REP. WILL HURD:
Well, Chuck, I know why you're jaded and why you're concerned, you know? But here's the reality that I've learned crisscrossing the country: People believe in the United States of America. People want to stand up and be proud of their country. When you talk to individual voters, they care about making – our role in the rest of the world. And so, so, it’s, don't be, don’t be discouraged. The reality is two-thirds of Americans want somebody other than Donald Trump and Joe Biden. That's, like, the rematch from Hell and nobody wants – sorry, moms. I don't mean, I don’t mean to say that. But nobody wants that. Nobody wants that as a, as a, as their choice. And so there's better options out there, right? And that's why we need to get more people voting in primaries. Only about 23% of the country actually votes in primaries. If we had more people voting in primaries, we'll see better choices in November, choices that we would actually like and be excited to vote for.
CHUCK TODD:
So you – in some ways, your political resume would've been the – exactly the type of resume the Republican Party would've been looking for. You were in a swing district, you’ve had to appeal to a 50/50 district. But the incentive structures don't seem to reward anybody that gets to the center. In fact, the four most centrist senators – alright, if you look at the four most centrist senators, Sinema, Manchin, Murkowski, and Romney, all of them are more unpopular in their own party than they are in, in the other party. So it is really hard to be a centrist and be popular in your party. How do you change that structure?
FMR. REP. WILL HURD:
Well, that wasn't the case and the realities for me when I was in Congress, right? Let's start with nobody thought a Black Republican could win in a 72% Latino district, right? And then nobody thought, including you, Chuck, thought that I was going to be able to win reelection, but I did. And how did I do that? I went to places that didn't identify necessarily with, with my party, and, and I showed up. And here's what I've learned, whether you're in ruby red towns or deep blue cities, people care about putting food on the table, a roof over their head, and making sure the people they love are healthy, happy and safe. Folks know that we are living in complicated times and that we need some common sense solutions to, to solve our problems. And guess what? Most Americans know that we're better together. And so, so the reality is, yes, this is you know, history has said these things are true. But my experiences are different. And, and it's, it’s a playbook on how to solve these problems and appeal to Independents and Democrats who are as frustrated with the direction on – of the Democratic Party. That's our opportunity in 2024.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, let's talk about the border here. You know, when you poll the idea of increased border security, a pathway to citizenship with background checks, you get 75% support across the board –
FMR. REP. WILL HURD:
And add DACA into there and –
CHUCK TODD:
– and including Republicans. And yet there's this belief that if you compromise at all on immigration, and really, immigration's not the only issue, but if you compromise a little bit, you get 70% of what you want, but you don't get it all, you're going to get primaried for it. And then you can’t – and then there's no incentive to solve the problem. How do you do that, with imm – with immigration being a perfect example of that?
FMR. REP. WILL HURD:
Well, unfortunately there's too many elected officials that are actually scared of their constituents, and they're afraid to go and take a message and explain things to people, because ultimately they're lazy. And, and the reality is, show up and talk about these issues. You're right, the, the solutions to these problems are there. It just requires political leadership, right?
CHUCK TODD:
Political will.
FMR. REP. WILL HURD:
Political will in order, in order to bring this forward. You know, I've spent time when I was in Congress trying to work on this issue. What's happening at the border is an absolute crisis. There's ways to solve the problem, there's ways to actually improve and streamline legal immigration, have more people coming in, impact our, our –
CHUCK TODD:
They're all sitting on a shelf. This is like – there aren’t no – I mean this is one of those, "It's intractable," but the solutions are obvious. And, and nobody will hold hands and jump off the cliff.
FMR. REP. WILL HURD:
Yeah, it’s because we need people that are willing to go out there and sell some of these ideas. It's hard to explain how you solve immigration and the, and the border crisis in 280 characters, but it requires people to go out and make that case, and explain these common sense solutions to these complicated problems.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to get your reaction to something President Biden said at his commencement at Howard University yesterday. Take a listen.
[START TAPE]
PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN:
The most dangerous terrorist threat to our homeland is white supremacy.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Your experience dealing with counterterrorism in the CIA and in the intelligence community – is he right about this?
FMR. REP. WILL HURD:
White supremacy is a problem, of course. And it's something that we shouldn't allow and be supportive, and it doesn’t exist anywhere – it shouldn't be in our institutions, and it shouldn't be in our country. And, and it's another name to say “racism,” right? And, and so yes. And I would, I would, I would extrapolate this a little bit further. When you look at most of our senior military advisors, when they have come to Congress and explained what the biggest threat is, they always talk about the threat from within. Oftentimes, it's this – the chaos in our political process, it's inability for people to work together and, and get big things done. And so yes, look, racism doesn't exist, the fact that the Tree of Life, you know, we're having that, um, hearing, I think it's a civil trial – it’s a civil trial later this week, we shouldn't see a growth of that.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, I look at this guy who leaked all of these secrets, and his – we're learning more about him and what motivated him. And he clearly had some violent tendencies. And there were some – what does the military need to do to improve it’s vetting process? Because there were plenty of yellow flags about this young man. It is pretty clear to me that, that a cursory investigation of him, a cursory background check would have kept him away from these sensitive files. How – that seems highly concerning.
FMR. REP. WILL HURD:
Unfortunately, when you look at throughout the entire federal government, the way we do background checks is like we're still in 1982. I'm going to learn more from somebody's digital profile than going to their neighbor ten years ago and knocking on their door, right? And so, so this lesson – we should be able to go through and say, "Hey, how did this person get in, and how do we stop someone like that from getting in in the first place? Oh, and by the way, why did someone like this have access to all this information?" They weren't going to be deployed, they weren't currently being deployed. There's some questions about the access to that info.
CHUCK TODD:
Before I let you go, when do you plan on making a decision?
FMR. REP. WILL HURD:
Look, a decision has to be made about my future sometime very soon. And like I said, I always – I never leave – I always leave open –
CHUCK TODD:
Before or after Memorial Day? Before or after Memorial Day at this point?
FMR. REP. WILL HURD:
I think a decision on anybody on what their future in politics has to be done before Memorial Day.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. Will Hurd, former congressman from Texas. Thanks for coming in and sharing your perspective.
FMR. REP. WILL HURD:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
Stay safe on the trail. When we come back, he's the Trump alternative who may announce his presidential run any day now. But does Ron DeSantis need to reboot his campaign before it starts? Panel is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back, panel is here. Rachael Bade, co-author of Politico “Playbook”; Peter Baker, the Chief White House correspondent for The New York Times; Republican strategist Al Cárdenas; and Kimberly Atkins Storh, senior opinion writer for the Boston Globe. Look, a lot has happened this week. I feel like the presidential race on the Republican side is obviously where there was a lot of noise thanks to the town hall. And we've got Ron DeSantis. He got Iowa to himself yesterday thanks to a weather issue with Donald Trump. Let me play another excerpt from his remarks yesterday.
[START TAPE]
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
Governing is not about entertaining. Governing is not about building a brand or talking on social media and virtue signaling. It's ultimately about winning and about producing results.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Al, I'm going to start with you. What he said is a message that appeals to a lot of donors, but is that a message that appeals to primary voters right now?
AL CÀRDENAS:
No. No. I mean, look, the whole thing was, "Hey, Ron DeSantis is perfect. He's Donald Trump without the baggage." Well, that fell flat. It doesn't work. He has two choices. He either doesn't run and saves himself for '28 or, if he's going to run, he's got to get muddy and dirty, follow Donald Trump wherever he goes, and hits him, because no one is going to take away Donald Trump's votes unless they feel — the voters, that is — that this person is even stronger than Donald Trump.
CHUCK TODD:
That's interesting. There does not seem to be a Republican in the field that's ready to take that advice.
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
No. I mean, it's still early yet, with that caveat. But what we're seeing, it's almost like —
CHUCK TODD:
It's getting late early, though.
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
It's getting late, but, you know —
CHUCK TODD:
As Yogi might say.
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
— when you watch a race and you have a front-runner, you see the other runners that are deciding what to do. Do they just kind of stay right behind? Do they try to challenge him early? Do they try to wait and try to come from the outside? And you're seeing all of these candidates trying to work that out, right? Ron DeSantis tried one thing. That didn't seem to be going very well. Now, he's sort of trying to switch strategies. There's only been one primary before involving Donald Trump, and that took everyone by surprise. No other candidate knew how to handle him, and I don't think they know yet how to handle him now.
RACHAEL BADE:
Yeah, I mean, can you – you can't blame them if you look at these polls. I mean, look, there was a poll out a few days ago that showed that only 7% of Republican primary voters actually want to see a candidate that goes and attacks Donald Trump. I mean, they don't want to hear it —
CHUCK TODD:
They don't want it.
RACHAEL BADE:
It's a message that they don't want. And so, that puts these candidates — specifically Ron DeSantis — in a really delicate position here, you know? He can't attack him head-on, but he's still got to make the argument that he's the better candidate.
AL CÀRDENAS:
Right.
RACHAEL BADE:
The DeSantis campaign is clearly trying to do this, like, delicate two-step dance where, you know, his outside super PAC is playing, you know, the bad guy and going after Trump but then he's saying, "Look, I'm only going to talk policy here." Will that work? I don't know.
CHUCK TODD:
Peter, I don't know. To me, it looks like they're announcing about on the timeline that they always wanted to have, but this looks like a team that is reacting.
PETER BAKER:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
Constantly reacting. And now, the campaign looks like it's, "Oh, are they moving the announcement up? And now, they're doing this." And it – boy, it's not a way to start.
PETER BAKER:
They've lost control of the narrative, right? I mean, they had a pretty strong narrative going in, and they don't have it right now. But, look, let's also step back for a minute. We've seen this before. I mean, there's always a swoon over the new candidate. "Oh, my gosh, he or she's really great." And then, we kind of get tired of them and say, "Well, they're not so great after all." And sometimes they come back, and sometimes they don't. So, we don't know, "Is this, you know, a Bill Clinton, or is this a Rick Perry?" You know what I mean? Like, is he going to fall flat and that's it? His strategy seems to be not so much doing what Al said, which is to frontally attack Trump but let Trump defeat himself, wait and see what happens. We've got three possible indictments still coming against Donald Trump. It's not a bad gamble, maybe, for Ron DeSantis to say, "Let's wait and see if Trump falls short, and then I'm there to pick up the pieces."
CHUCK TODD:
Al, what's shocking to me, though, is how many donors are comfortable saying, after meeting with Ron DeSantis, "I'm still shopping." That's alarming for him —
AL CÀRDENAS:
Yeah. That's alarming for him.
CHUCK TODD:
Steve Schwarzman doesn't beat around the bush.
AL CÀRDENAS:
No. The clue is, "How do you get to be notorious enough to be competitive?" I like what Asa Hutchinson's doing. I mean, he's frontal. He's critical. And, at the same time, he seems rational. Now, can someone like that, you know, gain any traction in our party's primary? We'll see.
CHUCK TODD:
All of this, right now, I want to put up some of the criticism that Biden's been getting on Title 42, mostly coming from senators who are up for reelection in 2024. Sherrod Brown, "Both parties have failed on this." John Tester, you know, "It means standing up to anyone, including President Biden." Joe Manchin, "The administration failed properly to secure our southern border." The irony to this, Kimberly, is you get the sense that the Republicans, they're almost distracted from focusing on Biden because Donald Trump is a constant distraction.
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
Yeah, but they also have their talking points down on anything related to immigration, you know? With all respect to Congressman Hurd, it's the Democrats who have to deal with the complexities of actually explaining how immigration reform works and coalesce around that, and that's really difficult. Whereas, over the years, Republicans have just boiled it down not to just 280 words but to three: "build the wall." Or, "stop amnesty." And so, they have that messaging locked. That leaves Democrats actually having to explain how the real work is done. And, politically, that's a lot harder.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah. Rachael, this just feels like, no matter what happens over the next couple of months, the White House is going to have a difficult political experience.
RACHAEL BADE:
Yeah. I mean, not to sound cynical, but, you know, they could send, like, everyone down to the border to sort of stop everyone from coming over, and they're still going to face problems from voters. I mean, if you look at the polling, you see that this is an issue that really helps Republicans and hurts Biden. I mean, a majority of Americans believe that Biden is totally ignoring the border and that he's certainly not doing enough. And so, even though they're trying to take steps right now, I mean, is that going to resonate with folks? Clearly not. I don’t see it.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think Title 42 comes back? Do you think this Senate bill —
RACHAEL BADE:
If it does, it's going to take —
CHUCK TODD:
— gets momentum?
RACHAEL BADE:
— it’s going to take a lot of terrible images on television of chaos down there. Right now, they don't have the votes to do that in the Senate. But it is really telling that you have someone like Sherrod Brown, who is a progressive always in lockstep with the White House, saying, "Look, they're not doing enough, and we need to extend Title 42 for two more years."
CHUCK TODD:
Peter, this is a party that is sticking by Joe Biden —
PETER BAKER:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
— because of what they see on the other side.
PETER BAKER:
Right.
CHUCK TODD:
In three months, if his numbers are not improving and he's, you know, agreed to budget caps, and we know that the budget talks are going to get — I mean, do you think this unity holds?
PETER BAKER:
You know, there's not a lot of avenue for somebody else to come in and challenge him for the nomination. That doesn't seem to be happening or even really, theoretically, possible for a major candidate at this point. But you're right that there is some uncertainty in the party, because these polls pretty consistently show that, at the very least, Biden is within a margin of error lead and, in some cases, even behind Trump. This is running against a candidate who's been impeached twice, has been indicted for felonies, who's just been found liable for sexual abuse, who instigated an insurrection, who caters to racists. And yet, Biden is within the margin of error of this guy, of course Democrats are going to be nervous about that.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah. Kimberly, I mean, what if the nominee isn't Trump? Now, I'm skeptical, but what if the nominee isn't Trump?
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
Yeah. I think it's still really unknown. I mean, there's some polling that's out — it's still pretty early — that shows that Biden's best shot is with Trump. And Democrats really have to be prepared to make that case. But I think, in that case, they actually have to make a case. I think the reaction by President Biden to Trump's CNN appearance, which is just like, "Who wants that, you know? Stick with what you got," is not going to be anywhere near enough. They have to make the case about what they've done, what they can do, and how they are better. And that's harder. It's actually harder to run for reelection and govern at the same time. But, at the same time, you also have that ability. You have something to show, actual work to put on the table. And I don't think that Biden has done a good enough job at that.
CHUCK TODD:
At this point, without – if Trump's over there, do you think that's still Biden's best asset?
AL CÀRDENAS:
Yes.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
AL CÀRDENAS:
Yes, I do. You know, he would score well with Trump. Look, 50% of our country right now considers itself Independent. More Republicans, you know, don't want Trump to win that want him to win. More Democrats, unfortunately for him, don't want Biden to win. So we're going to have another binary choice unless a third party comes in. And this group, No Labels, is trying hard to provide a third option.
CHUCK TODD:
You think they can get traction, or not?
AL CÀRDENAS:
It depends on who No Labels comes up with, but they're doing all the hard work in terms of qualifying in a number of states, and I think they'll end up doing that. The question is, "Will they come up with candidates that are attractive enough?" After all, elections are about the people running for the office. And if they come up with a third option, it's got to be someone that people say, "My gosh," you know? It better be someone outstanding.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah, I don't see Joe Manchin fitting that role, Peter Baker.
PETER BAKER:
No. No, I don't either. Who's his coalition there? I mean, the problem is he draws from already existing pools of voters. And there isn't a dynamic, magnetic personality out there you can say, "Ah, if that person runs as a third party —"
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah, Arnold Schwarzenegger's the only guy out there, and he's not —
PETER BAKER:
He's not qualified. He's not allowed to —
CHUCK TODD:
— we don't think he's eligible, although, you know, you still don't have standing unless you actually get elected. But he'd be the only person. There is no other outsider like that —
PETER BAKER:
No.
CHUCK TODD:
— that feels like would fill that vacuum right now, Rachael.
RACHAEL BADE:
Well, not only that, but, you know, that 50% of Independent voters, they're all very different. I mean, are they socially conservative and, you know, fiscally more liberal? Or is it flipped? So, they all want something different, and it's hard to find one —
PETER BAKER:
And they're not really independent.
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
And the system with 270 electoral votes makes it all but impossible, I mean, it would have to be an extraordinary candidate who would be able to get over that.
AL CÀRDENAS:
Right, but the interesting thing —
CHUCK TODD:
Right, but that’s the missing thing —
AL CÀRDENAS:
— but that, winning right off the bat with 270 votes is hard. Not impossible, but hard. But keeping other candidates from getting 270 votes —
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
Right.
AL CÀRDENAS:
— is certainly feasible.
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
Right.
AL CÀRDENAS:
And, and who knows who's going to win the majority in the House when it comes to 2024 —
CHUCK TODD:
All right, well, if you really want a unity ticket, that's one way to potentially end up with a unity ticket.
AL CÀRDENAS:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
Where the Democrats may control one chamber, Republicans control another, and it all goes there. Maybe that's the outcome we deserve, even if it's not one that we think the country can handle. With that, let me pause it there. By the way, Happy Mother's Day. Happy first Mother's Day.
RACHAEL BADE:
Thank you very much.
CHUCK TODD:
Up next, Americans are worried about the economy even as it continues to improve. That uncertainty is setting the tone for 2024.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Data Download time. As always, the economy will be a big topic heading into 2024. And like so many issues these days, how well it is doing depends on who you ask and whether they have a “D” or an “R” next to their name. So, what is the current state of the U.S. economy? Well, the data presents a complicated picture. It seems to be more about where people think the economy is going rather than where it is. Because if you just look at where it is, it's doing quite well. GDP growth, look, it started gangbusters when Biden first came into office. This is the post-COVID surge that certainly quickly expanded economic growth. Then we had the inflation dip there. Now, we're sitting at just over 1% growth. And it's really being slowed down, our economic growth, by the Federal Reserve, to tame inflation. Let's take a look at the unemployment rate. This is on – has been on steady decline since Biden took office. It's down to 3.4%. We still have a labor shortage in this country; part of that has to do with our lack of compromise on immigration. By the way, this is being felt across the board on unemployment. African American unemployment is also at an all-time low at 4.7%, and that gap between overall unemployment and Black unemployment among the lowest of all time. Now, inflation. This is what has dogged this economy. And this is what led – has led many people to believe this isn’t a great time in this economy. Obviously, we had an inflation rate that peaked in the summer of last year at 9.1%. It is still at 4.9%, much higher than when Biden took office. But it has been on a steady decline. And some people think it'll be down to – close to that 2% mark perhaps by the end of this calendar year. So, why do people feel bad about the economy? It has to do with overall confidence about where they think the economy is going. So, consumer confidence, down a bit from March to April. But here's why. Consumer confidence went up from March to April sort of in the moment. People said, "Yeah, the economy is good right now, in fact better this month than it was last month." But then you ask them, "What's it going to look like in six months?" and they still believe we are headed to recession. Now, people have believed this now for over a year, and a recession hasn't come. So, pessimism in many ways is, is what's making people think this is a bad economy. Before we go to break, this week on Meet the Press Reports, our deep dive is on AI, artificial intelligence, its promises and its dangers. My colleague, Jacob Ward, has been covering the emergence of AI for years. Here’s his excerpt from his story.
[START TAPE]
JACOB WARD:
Meredith Whittaker was an early AI researcher at Google. She left after leading walkouts over military contacts and Google's handling of executive misconduct. Google made several changes to its products and policies after the outcry. But Whittaker says it's the issues around AI that worry her most.
MEREDITH WHITTAKER:
So, the idea that this is going, going to sort of magically become a source of social good or that this is a, you know, kind of a natural substance that all of us have the ability to use equally and, "Hey, teachers will be using it, and students will be using it, and nonprofits will be using it," is simply not true. That's a fantasy used to market these programs.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
You can watch the full episode on the power of AI. It's on Peacock or YouTube, or it's after this broadcast on NBC News Now, the bottom line. It's available right now. When we come back, the party that once demanded morality in their politicians is now led by someone that's been found liable for sexual assault and charged with 34 felony counts in a hush money scheme to pay off a porn star. So, does character matter anymore for a Republican primary voter? I'll talk to evangelical leader Russell Moore.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Republicans once demanded morality in their politicians. Now, it appears not so much. Just listen to what Lindsey Graham said on this program as House Republicans weighed whether to impeach Democratic President Bill Clinton 25 years ago for obstruction of justice and perjury.
[START TAPE]
REP. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
It's one thing to go and commit a crime. It's another thing to, to flaunt it in front of the American people and never admit to your wrongdoing. If the president would have the character to come forward and admit to the wrongdoing that I think is obviously there, then maybe I would treat him differently. What I'm looking for is a president that has the character trait to lead the American people, that will put his interests secondary to the American people. I'm looking for somebody who's repentant, somebody understands they made not just a mistake but violated the law. The law allows people to be treated differently if they have come before the court and said, "I'm sorry, and I'm guilty." But somebody that plays the games to the bitter end, tries to have it both ways, dances on the head of the pin, in my opinion, has forfeited their right to lead this country.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
So, does character matter in the Republican party? Russell Moore has been one of the highest-profile conservative, evangelical voices speaking out against Donald Trump. From 2013 until his resignation in 2021, he was the president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention. Now, he's the editor-in-chief of Christianity Today. Dr. Moore, welcome back to Meet the Press.
RUSSELL MOORE:
Thanks for having me, Chuck. Good to be here.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to, I want to repeat the last sentence there from Senator Graham. Again, 25 years ago, this was Lindsey Graham. "Somebody that plays the games to the bitter end, tries to have it both ways, dances on the head of a pin, in my opinion, has forfeited their right to lead this country." I want to get your reaction to that. That was 1998, where are we today?
RUSSELL MOORE:
Well, it was right in 1998, and it's right now. And that's what’s part of what's so confusing to many of us who were taught in the 1990s that character matters and are now told by often the very same people that it doesn't. Evangelical Christianity emphasizes that the internal affects the external and the fact that a person, a person’s character in private, has everything to do with his or her character in public. That has always been the case, and that's always been the issue here is: does character matter, or does it not?
CHUCK TODD:
You know, even former Vice President Pence was kind of dismissive of the defamation verdict against – with E. Jean Carroll against the former president, you know, saying, "Well, I, I think this is something that the media cares more about." It was shocking – that was a shocking reaction for me coming from the former vice president. Was it to you?
RUSSELL MOORE:
I'm not sure what's going on in Vice President Pence's mind at this point. I know it was, it was a shocking moment for me even after everything that we've seen. And what's primarily shocking is the fact that here we are in a week where a former president of the United States is found liable for sexual abuse and sexual assault and defamation of, of a woman who survived such abuse and assault and the country just yawns for the most part. That tells me that something has really, really badly gone awry in this country. And you, you add to it the demeanor and the content of President Trump's deposition to, to simply shrug off and defend the Access Hollywood comments. In 2015, I said that President Trump had the – or Donald Trump at the time, had the attitude toward women of a Bronze Age warlord. In that deposition, he said, "Yes, as a matter of fact," predated it back to millions of years ago, and said, "Unfortunately or fortunately, that's the way that it is." Well, think about the teenage girl in a church somewhere who's being abused by her youth pastor wondering whether to come forward. And she hears not only that, but when the victim is ridiculed by a, a presidential candidate in front of a crowd, the response is laughter. That has devastating implications.
CHUCK TODD:
Four – eight years ago when Donald Trump first ran, there was a divide inside the evangelical community and there was a lot of hand-wringing. And many came down on the side of, "Well, if the choice is between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump will appoint the judges that I like." You seemed to indicate after Donald Trump announced his reelection plans, after the November 2022 midterms, that you didn't sense a divide anymore in the evangelical community, that politically they're all in. Is – do you still sense that?
RUSSELL MOORE:
Well, I think that's probably true with the politically activated, politically, politically energized base. I don't think that's true of everyone. And that's one of the reasons why we see churches divided. We see families divided. I mean, one of the, the most dismaying aspects of the Trump years is the fact that Donald Trump is at the center of everything. Almost every congregation that I know is either divided or tense about these sorts of political, political controversies coming out of the Trump years. Almost every family that I know has people who don't speak to each other anymore about this personality and this figure. And I think there are a lot of people, including conservative evangelicals like me, who are looking at this and saying, "Are we really going to do this again? Haven't we seen this already? Do we really want to repeat it?" And I suppose that will be the question for the rest of the year.
CHUCK TODD:
What would you like to see from other candidates? I mean, it seems that they very much don't want to make a character case against the former president.
RUSSELL MOORE:
Well, I, I think someone needs to step forward and talk about the importance of character and talk about the importance of having someone who can be trusted to have the nuclear codes. I mean it – we really need someone to step forward and say, "Let's remember what's at stake here." We're, we’re not just choosing what kind of entertainment we're going to have for the next six years. We're talking about the direction of the country and we're talking about what our children are seeing and, and potentially will replicate. If you have an entire generation who only grow up seeing this, what's going to happen? We need somebody who will make that case and say it. And right now, among candidates, among elected officials, sometimes even among church officials, there's fear. No one wants to speak to this because they're afraid of what will happen to them. The stakes are too high.
CHUCK TODD:
Last question. Is there any circumstance you could imagine supporting Donald Trump?
RUSSELL MOORE:
Well, I can't speak for all evangelicals. I can only speak for myself. And Jesus said, "Let your yes be yes and your no be no." I'll let my never, be never.
CHUCK TODD:
Dr. Russell Moore, the editor-in-chief of Christianity Today, appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us. Thank you, sir.
RUSSELL MOORE:
Thanks, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
And that's all we have for today. Thank you for watching. Happy Mother's Day. If you've forgotten, hurry up. The clock is ticking. We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.
CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday, party boss. Donald Trump previews his vision for a second term – an agenda that proved divisive with swing voters in 2022.
KAITLAN COLLINS:
Would you sign a federal abortion ban into law?
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
What I will do is negotiate so that people are happy.
CHUCK TODD:
After a town hall peddling election lies, promising to pardon January 6th rioters and refusing to pick sides in the war in Ukraine - his 2024 rivals remain largely silent.
KAITLAN COLLINS:
Can you say if you want Ukraine or Russia to win this war?
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I want everybody to stop dying.
CHUCK TODD:
As the field of challengers grows, can any of his rivals take him on without alienating his supporters? I'll talk to former Republican Congressman Will Hurd of Texas who is considering his own bid for president in 2024. Plus, moral compass. After a jury found Trump liable for sexual abuse, his opponents – mostly silent.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I just don’t think it’s where the American people are focused.
CHUCK TODD:
Does character matter anymore for Republican primary voters? I'll ask Russell Moore, the Editor-in-Chief of Christianity Today. And, border crisis.
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
I want to be very clear. Our borders are not open.
CHUCK TODD:
As the Biden administration braces for a surge at the southern border, it’s Democrats that are divided.
SEN. JON TESTER:
I oppose the Biden administration plan to end Title 42.
CHUCK TODD:
Will the president listen to his base or those close to the political center? I'll talk to Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut. Joining me for insight and analysis are: New York Times White House Correspondent Peter Baker, Politico Playbook co-author Rachael Bade, Republican strategist Al Cárdenas and Kimberly Atkins Stohr, Senior Opinion Writer for The Boston Globe. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning and a Happy Mother's Day to all the moms out. What we saw this week is a Republican Party that is paralyzed by Donald Trump. Elected Republicans and Trump's 2024 rivals are eager to move on, but not sure how to take on Trump and they're terrified of alienating his supporters. It makes them desperate to follow the voters rather than trying to lead them and the paralysis is – in the party has been key to Donald Trump's strength. In Iowa Saturday, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, who's having to reboot his campaign before it's even gotten off the ground, invited a political columnist to Tallahassee last week, letting reporters know he does plan to announce really, really soon and yet he tiptoed around this criticism of Trump never mentioning him by name.
[START TAPE]
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
We must reject the culture of losing that has infected our party in recent years. The time for excuses is over. If we get distracted or if we focus the election on the past or on other side issues, then I think the Democrats are going to beat us again.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
DeSantis came to Iowa with all the presidential trappings. He even had a bus wrapped with the words join “Team DeSantis for President,” but it is an open question whether Trump supporters even accept the premise that DeSantis was arguing there, that Donald Trump has been losing. And this week after Trump was found liable for sexual abuse, his 2024 opponents barely blinked. Perhaps spooked by the Republican reaction to the Manhattan indictment. Even Mike Pence who rose to political prominence, arguing that a president of the United States should be held to the highest moral standards, defended him.
[START TAPE]
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
It's just one more story, focusing on my former running mate that I know is a great fascination to members of the national media but I just don't think it's where the American people are focused.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Well, whether it's the American people or Republican primary voters, in our recent NBC News poll, a whopping 68% of Republican primary voters believe the multiple investigations into Trump are politically motivated, and that Republicans need to defend him. Perhaps Pence is simply responding to those numbers, because there was just 26% who said the party needs to find a different nominee who won't be distracted. The Republican Party, which once impeached a president over an affair with an intern, no longer finds moral wrongdoings disqualifying. Trump's rivals also had very little say when he sketched out a second term vision, which is likely to turn off swing voters during the televised town wall this week. He called the January 6 insurrection a beautiful day, said he would pardon many of the January 6 rioters, embraced the possibility of a default if democrats don't agree to massive cuts. He even refused to answer whether he wants Russia or Ukraine to win the war in Ukraine right now or to even say whether Putin is committing war crimes or as a war criminal. Trump said he was so honored to be the one to terminate Roe v Wade and he also refused to commit to accepting the results of the 2024 elections. So right now, the only person Donald Trump appears to be helping is Joe Biden, who's polling problems would be magnified without the circus that surrounds Trump. To be sure, President Biden has plenty of challenges and this is likely to start a very difficult summer with both the border and debt ceiling testing him and the best case scenario for the White House is that the uncomfortable compromises that they're likely to have to make, simply do no further political damage. With Biden struggling in the polls, Democrats running in competitive Senate races, including Kyrsten Sinema, an independent who caucuses with them, are finding it easier to criticize him right now.
[START TAPE]
SEN. KYRSTEN SINEMA:
They made the decision to end title 42 today. They also made the decision to not prepare for the end of title 42.
SEN. JON TESTER:
I oppose the Biden administration plan to end title 42 this week without a real plan in place for the strain it will put on an already broken immigration system
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut. Senator Murphy, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Yeah, thanks for having me.
CHUCK TODD:
So let’s – this Title 42 issue. Look, this has the fingerprints of all of Congress on it. This has the fingerprints of two presidential administrations. So what could be done right now that would give you confidence that the administration can handle this?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
So, Title 42 is required to be lifted, by law, right? Title 42 allows you, during a pandemic, to stop individuals from presenting at the border and applying for asylum. And now that the pandemic is over, the president doesn't have discretion to keep Title 42 in place. So, for all of these Republicans who are complaining that the president acts outside of his authority, in this case, they seemingly want him to violate the law and turn people around at the border. The president has not been sitting on his hands, like Republicans would allege. The president has actively – has been actively engaged in trying to manage this crisis. He has negotiated important agreements with Mexico so that Mexico takes more of these migrants. He has surged thousands of troops and asylum officials, and border patrol to the border to handle this emergency. And he's put in place a really tough new rule that some frankly say goes beyond his authority to say to migrants, "If you don't apply for asylum before you get to the United States, we're going to turn you right back around.” Now, that doesn't mean that you aren't still going to have a lot of people showing up at the border because that's just the consequence of having two years in which males, single adults, couldn't apply for asylum. But it's just simply not true that the president hasn't done enough to try to be as ready as possible.
CHUCK TODD:
I understand what you're saying about the preparation for this moment. But politically, other than introducing a bill on day one, he never talked about it, he didn't lean his shoulder in. Build Back Better was the focus. Everything else was the focus. And, look, the Republicans have dirtier hands on immigration, I’ve already said it. But the Democrats don't have clean hands on this, either.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Well, Republicans have had multiple opportunities to come to the table and pass immigration reform that would fix the problem at the border. And my belief is that while you have a small group of Republicans who legitimately want to engage, the majority of that party delights at chaos at the border. You saw some of my colleagues on Tuesday. As soon as votes were done, rush down to the border to take smiling photographs with the border patrol, essentially celebrating the fact that there was chaos because they believe that there was political gain to be had. So I think Americans know that it's Republicans, not Democrats, that have been sitting on the outside when it comes to fixing our broken immigration system.
CHUCK TODD:
Are you supportive of reinstituting Title 42? There's a bill in the Senate that could do that. It's gotten a little more support from Democrats, particularly ones that are on the ballot in 2024, which actually you are, too, though not in as purple of a state as others. Would you be reluctantly supportive of that if you thought it was a tool they needed?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
I – I'm not because that just pushes the problem down the line. Like, that just gives you one or two more years of individuals being denied entry. Whenever Title 42 is lifted, you are going to have this temporary prob – problem of massive numbers of new people arriving at the border. And, by the way, Republicans have been castigating the president for not lifting COVID restrictions fast enough. The only COVID restriction Republicans seem to want to keep in place is the one that keeps people from – people that don't look like them from coming into the United States.
CHUCK TODD:
Why do think the economic argument hasn't worked to get Republicans to the table? Because you can – our inflation, our inflation problem, it’s – you can make one case on the free money issue with the Fed. You can make some case there. But the real issue is that we have a labor shortage. And it's, it’s, it’s, it’s having an issue on wages. That is our economic problem. Yet, it has no impact.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
So, despite my tough words for how Republicans approach this issue, I think there is still an opportunity, at least in the Senate, for bipartisan immigration reform. Maybe not the size of the bill in 2013, but I do think there are a group of Republicans in the Senate who recognize that we have this massive labor shortage. Everywhere in the country, you see, help wanted signs. And that there is an ability to help the American economy by letting more people into the country legally. So, I wouldn't be surprised if you see some discussions begin in the Senate in the wake of the House action last week to try to find some common ground on immigration reform.
CHUCK TODD:
You think that in a piecemeal direction – it's always going to be piecemeal, at this point; the word comprehensive, just throw it away?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Yeah. I think right now, you've got to do the pieces that are most urgent. And, to me, that's border security. That's asylum reform. And then, that's doing something about the Dreamers who are here and need some help.
CHUCK TODD:
Debt ceiling, it looks like the White House is now negotiating. Something you didn't want to see, spending caps are on the table. They're debating between two years, ten years. Are you comfortable with a deal like that or do you think if you're going to cut a deal on spending, that maybe ought to – tax hikes ought to be a part of this?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Well, if we want to get serious about deficit reduction, then you have to put tax increases for billionaires and corporations on the table. That's why I'm pretty skeptical that there's going to be an agreement in the next two weeks. And what worries me –
CHUCK TODD:
– Even a punted agreement for three months?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Well, what worries me is that Chuck Schumer, Joe Biden, even Mitch McConnell have said that, "If we can't get an agreement in the next few weeks, default is off the table." The only leader who says, "We are going to light the American economy on fire if we can't get an agreement in the next ten to 14 days," is Kevin McCarthy. And that is deeply worrying to me because there's an opportunity to talk about their really unpopular agenda of cuts, but the time to do that is when we're negotiating the budget.
CHUCK TODD:
Is – would you start invoking the 14th amendment and start paying the bills now if you were Joe Biden in order to essentially launch the legal discussion about the 14th amendment?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
You know, I don't want to give Joe Biden advice, but I think we should do our job. I think that's a precedent to just absolve Congress from being adults.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to talk about the issue of guns. And, look, this has been something that you've been working on for quite some time, trying to find small increases in gun regulations or big ones. We saw another court ruling that essentially invoked and said, "Hey there's just not much you can do because of the Second Amendment, this absolutist version and, and interpretation of the Second Amendment." Given that we have a court system that this is what it's going to be, how do you tackle gun regulation under this environment? Do you go for a new consti – a new constitutional amendment or do you just hope judges' philosophies change over the next generation?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Right now, the Supreme Court has made it clear, under Heller Decision, which still controls, they say there is a right to private gun ownership, but there is also an ability for Congress to regulate who owns weapons and what kind of weapons are owned. I think we have to continue to operate under that construct. And I’m – and I really see progress, right? We broke a 30-year log jam last year by passing the first major gun safety initiative. You have seen Republican states like Tennessee looking at red flag laws, Texas considering raising the age to buy assault weapons. I think our movement is in a position to win. Does it worry me, what some of these district courts are doing? Absolutely. But right now, I think our focus is about – has got to be about growing the movement and continuing to capitalize on the progress of last year.
CHUCK TODD:
But it does sound like you've got to do it within the construct of, "Look. You're probably not going to be able to regulate much having to do with access to the gun by anybody over 18."
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Well, listen, if the Supreme Court eventually says that states or the Congress can't pass universal background checks or can't take these weapons off the streets, I think there's going to be a popular revolt over that policy. A court that's already pretty illegitimate is going to be in full crisis mode.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to put up something from our last poll. A majority thought that President Biden shouldn't seek a second term, and even Democrats, and they all pointed to the same thing: his age and his abilities to do the job. What gives you confidence that he's the best candidate that Democrats can put up in 2024?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
So, when we broke that 30-year log jam, 30 years of inaction on guns, there was a month in which we were negotiating that piece of legislation. Joe Biden was intimately involved in that process. I talk to Joe Biden probably every three or four days. He made a bold decision to go to the country and speak directly to them when many of his advisers told him not to. That bill would not have passed with Joe Biden's personal involvement. And so I have seen how effective this president is. And this narrative that Republicans are spinning is just their best argument against him because they can't argue on the merits, they can't argue on the policies that he's passed because he's had one of the most successful policy agendas of any president in their first two to three years.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think that will translate into defeating Donald Trump if Donald Trump is nominated?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
And, and what Joe Biden reminds us that elections are not a referendum, they are a choice. And as you pointed out, Donald Trump is advertising every single day what an irresponsible choice he is.
CHUCK TODD:
Chris Murphy, Democrat from Connecticut. Appreciate you coming on –
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
– sharing your perspective on this. Thank you, sir. When we come back, he wants his party to move on from Trump, but says no one is taking him on effectively. I'm going to talk to former Republican Congressman Will Hurd, who is considering his own race for president in 2024.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. As Donald Trump's 2024 Republican rivals struggle with how to challenge him, one potential candidate says no one in the current field is taking him on effectively. Will Hurd served as a CIA officer in the clandestine service for nearly a decade. He worked as a senior advisor to a cybersecurity firm. He represented Texas's 23rd district, which is on the border between the U.S. and Mexico, in the House of Representatives for three terms before choosing to leave in 2021. While in Congress, he famously drove 1,600 miles from San Antonio to D.C. with then-Democratic Congressman Beto O'Rourke, streaming their bipartisan road trip on Facebook Live after their flights were canceled because of a snowstorm. It was a reminder of the way politics used to work around here. After 19 children and two teachers were killed in the Uvalde mass shooting in his former district, Hurd again called for universal background checks and a federal red flag law. Now, Hurd is calling for a reboot of the Republican Party, and he is thinking about his own presidential run, and has already made stops in Iowa and New Hampshire. And the former Republican Congressman Will Hurd joins me now. Congressman Hurd, welcome back to Meet the Press.
FMR. REP. WILL HURD:
Thanks for having me. And Chuck, can I also join you in wishing all these moms Happy Mother's Day.
CHUCK TODD:
Absolutely.
FMR. REP. WILL HURD:
I was a mama's boy. And to all the moms that are watching your show, even if your kids don't tell you enough, you're awesome, so.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah. I have texted my mother already this morning. Right, Mom? Anyway, let me start with what we saw this week. You have -- one of your cases for running is that you don't think other people are making an effective case. Why do you think what happened to Donald Trump in that E. Jean Carroll trial just sort of went away, was almost dismissed out of hand as being irrelevant to the decision-making of whether he should be the nominee of the GOP?
FMR. REP. WILL HURD:
I can't give you a clear answer on why that didn't impact more people, but here's what I do know: Even people that like Donald Trump and were proud to vote for him think that Donald Trump has a lot of baggage that's going to hurt Republicans' chances in 2024. A lot of those voters believe that Donald Trump's mouth gets in the way, and prevents us from talking about issues that matter. You said at the top of your show, the GOP lost the House in 2018, we lost the Senate and the White House in 2020. The red wave that should have happened in 2022 didn't happen. And all of that is because of Donald Trump.
CHUCK TODD:
Isn't this the information ecosystem, though? His voters -- because this is where -- you heard Governor DeSantis make this case, "Hey, aren't you tired of losing?" But his voters don't believe he lost. Like, this is part of the issue, isn't it?
FMR. REP. WILL HURD:
It's part of the issue. But here's the reality, the election's not today, right? I think this -- the fact that in that CNN town hall, he was just looking backwards. He's not looking to the future. He's not looking about, "How do we tackle things like inflation?" What would he put forward to create -- solve the border crisis? How are we going to make sure that America stays the most important country in the world? If we're constantly looking backwards, that's a losing strategy. But the election is many months away.
CHUCK TODD:
You sound like a candidate in the before times, before there was Trump. I mean I, look, before Donald Trump came along I would've said, "Hey, the candidate that speaks more optimistically always wins." That is not what happened. He has totally inverted both the idea if you don’t talk about the – the candidates that don't talk about the future usually get punished. He doesn't. Why do you think this is?
FMR. REP. WILL HURD:
Well, Chuck, I know why you're jaded and why you're concerned, you know? But here's the reality that I've learned crisscrossing the country: People believe in the United States of America. People want to stand up and be proud of their country. When you talk to individual voters, they care about making – our role in the rest of the world. And so, so, it’s, don't be, don’t be discouraged. The reality is two-thirds of Americans want somebody other than Donald Trump and Joe Biden. That's, like, the rematch from Hell and nobody wants – sorry, moms. I don't mean, I don’t mean to say that. But nobody wants that. Nobody wants that as a, as a, as their choice. And so there's better options out there, right? And that's why we need to get more people voting in primaries. Only about 23% of the country actually votes in primaries. If we had more people voting in primaries, we'll see better choices in November, choices that we would actually like and be excited to vote for.
CHUCK TODD:
So you – in some ways, your political resume would've been the – exactly the type of resume the Republican Party would've been looking for. You were in a swing district, you’ve had to appeal to a 50/50 district. But the incentive structures don't seem to reward anybody that gets to the center. In fact, the four most centrist senators – alright, if you look at the four most centrist senators, Sinema, Manchin, Murkowski, and Romney, all of them are more unpopular in their own party than they are in, in the other party. So it is really hard to be a centrist and be popular in your party. How do you change that structure?
FMR. REP. WILL HURD:
Well, that wasn't the case and the realities for me when I was in Congress, right? Let's start with nobody thought a Black Republican could win in a 72% Latino district, right? And then nobody thought, including you, Chuck, thought that I was going to be able to win reelection, but I did. And how did I do that? I went to places that didn't identify necessarily with, with my party, and, and I showed up. And here's what I've learned, whether you're in ruby red towns or deep blue cities, people care about putting food on the table, a roof over their head, and making sure the people they love are healthy, happy and safe. Folks know that we are living in complicated times and that we need some common sense solutions to, to solve our problems. And guess what? Most Americans know that we're better together. And so, so the reality is, yes, this is you know, history has said these things are true. But my experiences are different. And, and it's, it’s a playbook on how to solve these problems and appeal to Independents and Democrats who are as frustrated with the direction on – of the Democratic Party. That's our opportunity in 2024.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, let's talk about the border here. You know, when you poll the idea of increased border security, a pathway to citizenship with background checks, you get 75% support across the board –
FMR. REP. WILL HURD:
And add DACA into there and –
CHUCK TODD:
– and including Republicans. And yet there's this belief that if you compromise at all on immigration, and really, immigration's not the only issue, but if you compromise a little bit, you get 70% of what you want, but you don't get it all, you're going to get primaried for it. And then you can’t – and then there's no incentive to solve the problem. How do you do that, with imm – with immigration being a perfect example of that?
FMR. REP. WILL HURD:
Well, unfortunately there's too many elected officials that are actually scared of their constituents, and they're afraid to go and take a message and explain things to people, because ultimately they're lazy. And, and the reality is, show up and talk about these issues. You're right, the, the solutions to these problems are there. It just requires political leadership, right?
CHUCK TODD:
Political will.
FMR. REP. WILL HURD:
Political will in order, in order to bring this forward. You know, I've spent time when I was in Congress trying to work on this issue. What's happening at the border is an absolute crisis. There's ways to solve the problem, there's ways to actually improve and streamline legal immigration, have more people coming in, impact our, our –
CHUCK TODD:
They're all sitting on a shelf. This is like – there aren’t no – I mean this is one of those, "It's intractable," but the solutions are obvious. And, and nobody will hold hands and jump off the cliff.
FMR. REP. WILL HURD:
Yeah, it’s because we need people that are willing to go out there and sell some of these ideas. It's hard to explain how you solve immigration and the, and the border crisis in 280 characters, but it requires people to go out and make that case, and explain these common sense solutions to these complicated problems.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to get your reaction to something President Biden said at his commencement at Howard University yesterday. Take a listen.
[START TAPE]
PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN:
The most dangerous terrorist threat to our homeland is white supremacy.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Your experience dealing with counterterrorism in the CIA and in the intelligence community – is he right about this?
FMR. REP. WILL HURD:
White supremacy is a problem, of course. And it's something that we shouldn't allow and be supportive, and it doesn’t exist anywhere – it shouldn't be in our institutions, and it shouldn't be in our country. And, and it's another name to say “racism,” right? And, and so yes. And I would, I would, I would extrapolate this a little bit further. When you look at most of our senior military advisors, when they have come to Congress and explained what the biggest threat is, they always talk about the threat from within. Oftentimes, it's this – the chaos in our political process, it's inability for people to work together and, and get big things done. And so yes, look, racism doesn't exist, the fact that the Tree of Life, you know, we're having that, um, hearing, I think it's a civil trial – it’s a civil trial later this week, we shouldn't see a growth of that.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, I look at this guy who leaked all of these secrets, and his – we're learning more about him and what motivated him. And he clearly had some violent tendencies. And there were some – what does the military need to do to improve it’s vetting process? Because there were plenty of yellow flags about this young man. It is pretty clear to me that, that a cursory investigation of him, a cursory background check would have kept him away from these sensitive files. How – that seems highly concerning.
FMR. REP. WILL HURD:
Unfortunately, when you look at throughout the entire federal government, the way we do background checks is like we're still in 1982. I'm going to learn more from somebody's digital profile than going to their neighbor ten years ago and knocking on their door, right? And so, so this lesson – we should be able to go through and say, "Hey, how did this person get in, and how do we stop someone like that from getting in in the first place? Oh, and by the way, why did someone like this have access to all this information?" They weren't going to be deployed, they weren't currently being deployed. There's some questions about the access to that info.
CHUCK TODD:
Before I let you go, when do you plan on making a decision?
FMR. REP. WILL HURD:
Look, a decision has to be made about my future sometime very soon. And like I said, I always – I never leave – I always leave open –
CHUCK TODD:
Before or after Memorial Day? Before or after Memorial Day at this point?
FMR. REP. WILL HURD:
I think a decision on anybody on what their future in politics has to be done before Memorial Day.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. Will Hurd, former congressman from Texas. Thanks for coming in and sharing your perspective.
FMR. REP. WILL HURD:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
Stay safe on the trail. When we come back, he's the Trump alternative who may announce his presidential run any day now. But does Ron DeSantis need to reboot his campaign before it starts? Panel is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back, panel is here. Rachael Bade, co-author of Politico “Playbook”; Peter Baker, the Chief White House correspondent for The New York Times; Republican strategist Al Cárdenas; and Kimberly Atkins Storh, senior opinion writer for the Boston Globe. Look, a lot has happened this week. I feel like the presidential race on the Republican side is obviously where there was a lot of noise thanks to the town hall. And we've got Ron DeSantis. He got Iowa to himself yesterday thanks to a weather issue with Donald Trump. Let me play another excerpt from his remarks yesterday.
[START TAPE]
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
Governing is not about entertaining. Governing is not about building a brand or talking on social media and virtue signaling. It's ultimately about winning and about producing results.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Al, I'm going to start with you. What he said is a message that appeals to a lot of donors, but is that a message that appeals to primary voters right now?
AL CÀRDENAS:
No. No. I mean, look, the whole thing was, "Hey, Ron DeSantis is perfect. He's Donald Trump without the baggage." Well, that fell flat. It doesn't work. He has two choices. He either doesn't run and saves himself for '28 or, if he's going to run, he's got to get muddy and dirty, follow Donald Trump wherever he goes, and hits him, because no one is going to take away Donald Trump's votes unless they feel — the voters, that is — that this person is even stronger than Donald Trump.
CHUCK TODD:
That's interesting. There does not seem to be a Republican in the field that's ready to take that advice.
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
No. I mean, it's still early yet, with that caveat. But what we're seeing, it's almost like —
CHUCK TODD:
It's getting late early, though.
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
It's getting late, but, you know —
CHUCK TODD:
As Yogi might say.
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
— when you watch a race and you have a front-runner, you see the other runners that are deciding what to do. Do they just kind of stay right behind? Do they try to challenge him early? Do they try to wait and try to come from the outside? And you're seeing all of these candidates trying to work that out, right? Ron DeSantis tried one thing. That didn't seem to be going very well. Now, he's sort of trying to switch strategies. There's only been one primary before involving Donald Trump, and that took everyone by surprise. No other candidate knew how to handle him, and I don't think they know yet how to handle him now.
RACHAEL BADE:
Yeah, I mean, can you – you can't blame them if you look at these polls. I mean, look, there was a poll out a few days ago that showed that only 7% of Republican primary voters actually want to see a candidate that goes and attacks Donald Trump. I mean, they don't want to hear it —
CHUCK TODD:
They don't want it.
RACHAEL BADE:
It's a message that they don't want. And so, that puts these candidates — specifically Ron DeSantis — in a really delicate position here, you know? He can't attack him head-on, but he's still got to make the argument that he's the better candidate.
AL CÀRDENAS:
Right.
RACHAEL BADE:
The DeSantis campaign is clearly trying to do this, like, delicate two-step dance where, you know, his outside super PAC is playing, you know, the bad guy and going after Trump but then he's saying, "Look, I'm only going to talk policy here." Will that work? I don't know.
CHUCK TODD:
Peter, I don't know. To me, it looks like they're announcing about on the timeline that they always wanted to have, but this looks like a team that is reacting.
PETER BAKER:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
Constantly reacting. And now, the campaign looks like it's, "Oh, are they moving the announcement up? And now, they're doing this." And it – boy, it's not a way to start.
PETER BAKER:
They've lost control of the narrative, right? I mean, they had a pretty strong narrative going in, and they don't have it right now. But, look, let's also step back for a minute. We've seen this before. I mean, there's always a swoon over the new candidate. "Oh, my gosh, he or she's really great." And then, we kind of get tired of them and say, "Well, they're not so great after all." And sometimes they come back, and sometimes they don't. So, we don't know, "Is this, you know, a Bill Clinton, or is this a Rick Perry?" You know what I mean? Like, is he going to fall flat and that's it? His strategy seems to be not so much doing what Al said, which is to frontally attack Trump but let Trump defeat himself, wait and see what happens. We've got three possible indictments still coming against Donald Trump. It's not a bad gamble, maybe, for Ron DeSantis to say, "Let's wait and see if Trump falls short, and then I'm there to pick up the pieces."
CHUCK TODD:
Al, what's shocking to me, though, is how many donors are comfortable saying, after meeting with Ron DeSantis, "I'm still shopping." That's alarming for him —
AL CÀRDENAS:
Yeah. That's alarming for him.
CHUCK TODD:
Steve Schwarzman doesn't beat around the bush.
AL CÀRDENAS:
No. The clue is, "How do you get to be notorious enough to be competitive?" I like what Asa Hutchinson's doing. I mean, he's frontal. He's critical. And, at the same time, he seems rational. Now, can someone like that, you know, gain any traction in our party's primary? We'll see.
CHUCK TODD:
All of this, right now, I want to put up some of the criticism that Biden's been getting on Title 42, mostly coming from senators who are up for reelection in 2024. Sherrod Brown, "Both parties have failed on this." John Tester, you know, "It means standing up to anyone, including President Biden." Joe Manchin, "The administration failed properly to secure our southern border." The irony to this, Kimberly, is you get the sense that the Republicans, they're almost distracted from focusing on Biden because Donald Trump is a constant distraction.
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
Yeah, but they also have their talking points down on anything related to immigration, you know? With all respect to Congressman Hurd, it's the Democrats who have to deal with the complexities of actually explaining how immigration reform works and coalesce around that, and that's really difficult. Whereas, over the years, Republicans have just boiled it down not to just 280 words but to three: "build the wall." Or, "stop amnesty." And so, they have that messaging locked. That leaves Democrats actually having to explain how the real work is done. And, politically, that's a lot harder.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah. Rachael, this just feels like, no matter what happens over the next couple of months, the White House is going to have a difficult political experience.
RACHAEL BADE:
Yeah. I mean, not to sound cynical, but, you know, they could send, like, everyone down to the border to sort of stop everyone from coming over, and they're still going to face problems from voters. I mean, if you look at the polling, you see that this is an issue that really helps Republicans and hurts Biden. I mean, a majority of Americans believe that Biden is totally ignoring the border and that he's certainly not doing enough. And so, even though they're trying to take steps right now, I mean, is that going to resonate with folks? Clearly not. I don’t see it.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think Title 42 comes back? Do you think this Senate bill —
RACHAEL BADE:
If it does, it's going to take —
CHUCK TODD:
— gets momentum?
RACHAEL BADE:
— it’s going to take a lot of terrible images on television of chaos down there. Right now, they don't have the votes to do that in the Senate. But it is really telling that you have someone like Sherrod Brown, who is a progressive always in lockstep with the White House, saying, "Look, they're not doing enough, and we need to extend Title 42 for two more years."
CHUCK TODD:
Peter, this is a party that is sticking by Joe Biden —
PETER BAKER:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
— because of what they see on the other side.
PETER BAKER:
Right.
CHUCK TODD:
In three months, if his numbers are not improving and he's, you know, agreed to budget caps, and we know that the budget talks are going to get — I mean, do you think this unity holds?
PETER BAKER:
You know, there's not a lot of avenue for somebody else to come in and challenge him for the nomination. That doesn't seem to be happening or even really, theoretically, possible for a major candidate at this point. But you're right that there is some uncertainty in the party, because these polls pretty consistently show that, at the very least, Biden is within a margin of error lead and, in some cases, even behind Trump. This is running against a candidate who's been impeached twice, has been indicted for felonies, who's just been found liable for sexual abuse, who instigated an insurrection, who caters to racists. And yet, Biden is within the margin of error of this guy, of course Democrats are going to be nervous about that.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah. Kimberly, I mean, what if the nominee isn't Trump? Now, I'm skeptical, but what if the nominee isn't Trump?
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
Yeah. I think it's still really unknown. I mean, there's some polling that's out — it's still pretty early — that shows that Biden's best shot is with Trump. And Democrats really have to be prepared to make that case. But I think, in that case, they actually have to make a case. I think the reaction by President Biden to Trump's CNN appearance, which is just like, "Who wants that, you know? Stick with what you got," is not going to be anywhere near enough. They have to make the case about what they've done, what they can do, and how they are better. And that's harder. It's actually harder to run for reelection and govern at the same time. But, at the same time, you also have that ability. You have something to show, actual work to put on the table. And I don't think that Biden has done a good enough job at that.
CHUCK TODD:
At this point, without – if Trump's over there, do you think that's still Biden's best asset?
AL CÀRDENAS:
Yes.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
AL CÀRDENAS:
Yes, I do. You know, he would score well with Trump. Look, 50% of our country right now considers itself Independent. More Republicans, you know, don't want Trump to win that want him to win. More Democrats, unfortunately for him, don't want Biden to win. So we're going to have another binary choice unless a third party comes in. And this group, No Labels, is trying hard to provide a third option.
CHUCK TODD:
You think they can get traction, or not?
AL CÀRDENAS:
It depends on who No Labels comes up with, but they're doing all the hard work in terms of qualifying in a number of states, and I think they'll end up doing that. The question is, "Will they come up with candidates that are attractive enough?" After all, elections are about the people running for the office. And if they come up with a third option, it's got to be someone that people say, "My gosh," you know? It better be someone outstanding.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah, I don't see Joe Manchin fitting that role, Peter Baker.
PETER BAKER:
No. No, I don't either. Who's his coalition there? I mean, the problem is he draws from already existing pools of voters. And there isn't a dynamic, magnetic personality out there you can say, "Ah, if that person runs as a third party —"
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah, Arnold Schwarzenegger's the only guy out there, and he's not —
PETER BAKER:
He's not qualified. He's not allowed to —
CHUCK TODD:
— we don't think he's eligible, although, you know, you still don't have standing unless you actually get elected. But he'd be the only person. There is no other outsider like that —
PETER BAKER:
No.
CHUCK TODD:
— that feels like would fill that vacuum right now, Rachael.
RACHAEL BADE:
Well, not only that, but, you know, that 50% of Independent voters, they're all very different. I mean, are they socially conservative and, you know, fiscally more liberal? Or is it flipped? So, they all want something different, and it's hard to find one —
PETER BAKER:
And they're not really independent.
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
And the system with 270 electoral votes makes it all but impossible, I mean, it would have to be an extraordinary candidate who would be able to get over that.
AL CÀRDENAS:
Right, but the interesting thing —
CHUCK TODD:Right, but that’s the missing thing —
AL CÀRDENAS:
— but that, winning right off the bat with 270 votes is hard. Not impossible, but hard. But keeping other candidates from getting 270 votes —
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
Right.
AL CÀRDENAS:
— is certainly feasible.
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
Right.
AL CÀRDENAS:
And, and who knows who's going to win the majority in the House when it comes to 2024 —
CHUCK TODD:
All right, well, if you really want a unity ticket, that's one way to potentially end up with a unity ticket.
AL CÀRDENAS:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
Where the Democrats may control one chamber, Republicans control another, and it all goes there. Maybe that's the outcome we deserve, even if it's not one that we think the country can handle. With that, let me pause it there. By the way, Happy Mother's Day. Happy first Mother's Day.
RACHAEL BADE:
Thank you very much.
CHUCK TODD:
Up next, Americans are worried about the economy even as it continues to improve. That uncertainty is setting the tone for 2024.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Data Download time. As always, the economy will be a big topic heading into 2024. And like so many issues these days, how well it is doing depends on who you ask and whether they have a “D” or an “R” next to their name. So, what is the current state of the U.S. economy? Well, the data presents a complicated picture. It seems to be more about where people think the economy is going rather than where it is. Because if you just look at where it is, it's doing quite well. GDP growth, look, it started gangbusters when Biden first came into office. This is the post-COVID surge that certainly quickly expanded economic growth. Then we had the inflation dip there. Now, we're sitting at just over 1% growth. And it's really being slowed down, our economic growth, by the Federal Reserve, to tame inflation. Let's take a look at the unemployment rate. This is on – has been on steady decline since Biden took office. It's down to 3.4%. We still have a labor shortage in this country; part of that has to do with our lack of compromise on immigration. By the way, this is being felt across the board on unemployment. African American unemployment is also at an all-time low at 4.7%, and that gap between overall unemployment and Black unemployment among the lowest of all time. Now, inflation. This is what has dogged this economy. And this is what led – has led many people to believe this isn’t a great time in this economy. Obviously, we had an inflation rate that peaked in the summer of last year at 9.1%. It is still at 4.9%, much higher than when Biden took office. But it has been on a steady decline. And some people think it'll be down to – close to that 2% mark perhaps by the end of this calendar year. So, why do people feel bad about the economy? It has to do with overall confidence about where they think the economy is going. So, consumer confidence, down a bit from March to April. But here's why. Consumer confidence went up from March to April sort of in the moment. People said, "Yeah, the economy is good right now, in fact better this month than it was last month." But then you ask them, "What's it going to look like in six months?" and they still believe we are headed to recession. Now, people have believed this now for over a year, and a recession hasn't come. So, pessimism in many ways is, is what's making people think this is a bad economy. Before we go to break, this week on Meet the Press Reports, our deep dive is on AI, artificial intelligence, its promises and its dangers. My colleague, Jacob Ward, has been covering the emergence of AI for years. Here’s his excerpt from his story.
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JACOB WARD:
Meredith Whittaker was an early AI researcher at Google. She left after leading walkouts over military contacts and Google's handling of executive misconduct. Google made several changes to its products and policies after the outcry. But Whittaker says it's the issues around AI that worry her most.
MEREDITH WHITTAKER:
So, the idea that this is going, going to sort of magically become a source of social good or that this is a, you know, kind of a natural substance that all of us have the ability to use equally and, "Hey, teachers will be using it, and students will be using it, and nonprofits will be using it," is simply not true. That's a fantasy used to market these programs.
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CHUCK TODD:
You can watch the full episode on the power of AI. It's on Peacock or YouTube, or it's after this broadcast on NBC News Now, the bottom line. It's available right now. When we come back, the party that once demanded morality in their politicians is now led by someone that's been found liable for sexual assault and charged with 34 felony counts in a hush money scheme to pay off a porn star. So, does character matter anymore for a Republican primary voter? I'll talk to evangelical leader Russell Moore.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Republicans once demanded morality in their politicians. Now, it appears not so much. Just listen to what Lindsey Graham said on this program as House Republicans weighed whether to impeach Democratic President Bill Clinton 25 years ago for obstruction of justice and perjury.
[START TAPE]
REP. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
It's one thing to go and commit a crime. It's another thing to, to flaunt it in front of the American people and never admit to your wrongdoing. If the president would have the character to come forward and admit to the wrongdoing that I think is obviously there, then maybe I would treat him differently. What I'm looking for is a president that has the character trait to lead the American people, that will put his interests secondary to the American people. I'm looking for somebody who's repentant, somebody understands they made not just a mistake but violated the law. The law allows people to be treated differently if they have come before the court and said, "I'm sorry, and I'm guilty." But somebody that plays the games to the bitter end, tries to have it both ways, dances on the head of the pin, in my opinion, has forfeited their right to lead this country.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
So, does character matter in the Republican party? Russell Moore has been one of the highest-profile conservative, evangelical voices speaking out against Donald Trump. From 2013 until his resignation in 2021, he was the president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention. Now, he's the editor-in-chief of Christianity Today. Dr. Moore, welcome back to Meet the Press.
RUSSELL MOORE:
Thanks for having me, Chuck. Good to be here.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to, I want to repeat the last sentence there from Senator Graham. Again, 25 years ago, this was Lindsey Graham. "Somebody that plays the games to the bitter end, tries to have it both ways, dances on the head of a pin, in my opinion, has forfeited their right to lead this country." I want to get your reaction to that. That was 1998, where are we today?
RUSSELL MOORE:
Well, it was right in 1998, and it's right now. And that's what’s part of what's so confusing to many of us who were taught in the 1990s that character matters and are now told by often the very same people that it doesn't. Evangelical Christianity emphasizes that the internal affects the external and the fact that a person, a person’s character in private, has everything to do with his or her character in public. That has always been the case, and that's always been the issue here is: does character matter, or does it not?
CHUCK TODD:
You know, even former Vice President Pence was kind of dismissive of the defamation verdict against – with E. Jean Carroll against the former president, you know, saying, "Well, I, I think this is something that the media cares more about." It was shocking – that was a shocking reaction for me coming from the former vice president. Was it to you?
RUSSELL MOORE:
I'm not sure what's going on in Vice President Pence's mind at this point. I know it was, it was a shocking moment for me even after everything that we've seen. And what's primarily shocking is the fact that here we are in a week where a former president of the United States is found liable for sexual abuse and sexual assault and defamation of, of a woman who survived such abuse and assault and the country just yawns for the most part. That tells me that something has really, really badly gone awry in this country. And you, you add to it the demeanor and the content of President Trump's deposition to, to simply shrug off and defend the Access Hollywood comments. In 2015, I said that President Trump had the – or Donald Trump at the time, had the attitude toward women of a Bronze Age warlord. In that deposition, he said, "Yes, as a matter of fact," predated it back to millions of years ago, and said, "Unfortunately or fortunately, that's the way that it is." Well, think about the teenage girl in a church somewhere who's being abused by her youth pastor wondering whether to come forward. And she hears not only that, but when the victim is ridiculed by a, a presidential candidate in front of a crowd, the response is laughter. That has devastating implications.
CHUCK TODD:
Four – eight years ago when Donald Trump first ran, there was a divide inside the evangelical community and there was a lot of hand-wringing. And many came down on the side of, "Well, if the choice is between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump will appoint the judges that I like." You seemed to indicate after Donald Trump announced his reelection plans, after the November 2022 midterms, that you didn't sense a divide anymore in the evangelical community, that politically they're all in. Is – do you still sense that?
RUSSELL MOORE:
Well, I think that's probably true with the politically activated, politically, politically energized base. I don't think that's true of everyone. And that's one of the reasons why we see churches divided. We see families divided. I mean, one of the, the most dismaying aspects of the Trump years is the fact that Donald Trump is at the center of everything. Almost every congregation that I know is either divided or tense about these sorts of political, political controversies coming out of the Trump years. Almost every family that I know has people who don't speak to each other anymore about this personality and this figure. And I think there are a lot of people, including conservative evangelicals like me, who are looking at this and saying, "Are we really going to do this again? Haven't we seen this already? Do we really want to repeat it?" And I suppose that will be the question for the rest of the year.
CHUCK TODD:
What would you like to see from other candidates? I mean, it seems that they very much don't want to make a character case against the former president.
RUSSELL MOORE:
Well, I, I think someone needs to step forward and talk about the importance of character and talk about the importance of having someone who can be trusted to have the nuclear codes. I mean it – we really need someone to step forward and say, "Let's remember what's at stake here." We're, we’re not just choosing what kind of entertainment we're going to have for the next six years. We're talking about the direction of the country and we're talking about what our children are seeing and, and potentially will replicate. If you have an entire generation who only grow up seeing this, what's going to happen? We need somebody who will make that case and say it. And right now, among candidates, among elected officials, sometimes even among church officials, there's fear. No one wants to speak to this because they're afraid of what will happen to them. The stakes are too high.
CHUCK TODD:
Last question. Is there any circumstance you could imagine supporting Donald Trump?
RUSSELL MOORE:
Well, I can't speak for all evangelicals. I can only speak for myself. And Jesus said, "Let your yes be yes and your no be no." I'll let my never, be never.
CHUCK TODD:
Dr. Russell Moore, the editor-in-chief of Christianity Today, appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us. Thank you, sir.
RUSSELL MOORE:
Thanks, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
And that's all we have for today. Thank you for watching. Happy Mother's Day. If you've forgotten, hurry up. The clock is ticking. We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.