CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday: Mass shooting in Buffalo. Ten people dead, nine of them African American, in what appears to be a racially motivated shooting.
MAYOR BYRON BROWN:
People in a supermarket shopping and bullets raining down on them.
LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL:
This was pure evil - it was straight up racially motivated hate crime.
CHUCK TOOD:
We'll get the latest from the scene. And I'll talk to Buffalo Mayor Byron Brown, and to New York's governor, Kathy Hochul. Plus: The economy and the midterms.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Right now, America is fighting on two fronts: at home it's inflation and rising prices.
CHUCK TODD:
With costs going up, outpacing wage growth...
CUSTOMER:
Right now, I can go in the grocery store and spend $60 and I'm looking like: what did I purchase?
CHUCK TODD:
Our brand new NBC News poll shows flashing warning signs for Democrats, but Republican leaders worry some of their candidates are too out of the mainstream:
KATHY BARNETTE:
Two men sleeping together, two men holding hands, two men caressing, that is not normal.
CHUCK TODD:
My guest this morning, the Independent Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont. Also, abortion politics. Thousands march nationwide in favor of abortion rights...
PROTESTER:
I can't believe we’re going back to this. And it’s a tragedy.
CHUCK TODD:
… as many states move to restrict those rights in anticipation of a Supreme Court decision that overturns Roe. Joining me for insight and analysis are: Washington Post White House Bureau Chief Ashley Parker, the Reverend Al Sharpton, host of "Politics Nation" on MSNBC, Republican strategist Al Cardenas, Washington Bureau Chief for USA Today, Susan Page and Washington Post contributing columnist Matt Bai. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning. Well, it's happened again, a horror all too familiar in the United States. This time, the scene of what appears to have been an act of domestic terrorism was a supermarket in Buffalo, New York. A white teenager, a boy, really, only 18, wearing body armor and carrying an assault rifle, opened fire at a supermarket in an African American neighborhood. Ten people were killed, nine of them Black, and three others were wounded, two of them Black. Shortly after the gunman was captured, a racist manifesto, he apparently posted, emerged online, filled with racist and anti-Semitic views, including the theory that whites are being replaced by people of color. Authorities say the gunman, who drove some 200 miles to carry out the slaughter, also live streamed the massacre with a camera apparently on his helmet. It's the latest in recent mass shootings aimed at ethnic groups. Charleston, South Carolina, African Americans in church. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, Jewish victims in a synagogue. El Paso, Texas, Latino victims at a Walmart. And now, we add Buffalo, New York to the list. We've also, of course, seen a rise of hate crimes against Asian Americans as well. In a moment, I'm going to talk to Buffalo's mayor, Byron Brown, and to New York's governor, Kathy Hochul. But we're going to begin our coverage with our NBC News correspondent Emilie Ikeda, who is in Buffalo. And Emilie, where are we on the investigation? I know the gunman was arraigned. What's next?
EMILIE IKEDA:
Hey there, Chuck. Investigators are looking into this as a hate crime and racially motivated violent extremism. And there’s a number of signs pointing and explaining why. One, 13 people were shot between the parking lot behind me and the supermarket. Eleven of those were Black. Investigators are also looking into an apparent manifesto that claims that the suspect purposefully targeted this area of Buffalo because of the number of Black people here. The other thing I'll point out, take a look at these images of what sources tell us are the suspect's weapons. They are blurred. And that is because there are messages of hate on them, racial slurs. And the other thing I'll mention we're learning more about this morning are the victims. These are people who were partaking in one of the most typical, normal activities on a Saturday afternoon, shopping in the supermarket. The governor telling me one of the people was simply trying to buy cupcakes for a birthday party. Another person shot and killed was the security guard. He tried to stop the suspect. Here's more from officials on that.
[BEGIN TAPE]
COMMISSIONER JOSEPH GRAMAGLIA:
One of the individuals inside the store is the security guard, a beloved security guard who was a retired Buffalo police officer, a hero in our eyes. Engaged the suspect, fired multiple shots. Struck the suspect, but because he had heavily armored plating on, that bullet had no round. The suspect engaged our retired officer, and he was ultimately shot and deceased at the scene.
[END TAPE]
EMILIE IKEDA:
The suspect is being identified as 18-year-old Payton Gendron. He did appear in court last night. He's charged with first-degree-murder. If convicted, he could face up to life in prison. We'll see him appear in court later this week on Thursday. Still very much a developing situation, Chuck. But we expect later this morning to learn more information on both the victims and what led up and what happened in this just absolutely horrific tragedy. This community shaken to its core, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
And obviously, we want to learn more about his family situation as well. Emilie, thanks very
much.
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is the mayor of Buffalo, Byron Brown. Mr. Mayor, welcome to Meet the Press.
MAYOR BYRON BROWN:
Thank you very much, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, I know this is an excruciating time to be mayor and that the city's in a lot of pain here. What can you tell me about the latest on the investigation? You know, all of it is still under – apparently racially motivated. Certainly seems like we're getting close to dropping the "apparently."
MAYOR BYRON BROWN:
We are getting close to dropping that. Law enforcement has been working together around the clock since this occurred at every level, federal, state, county, city and pieced together very quickly that this was a racially-motivated attack. The individual that committed this crime drove from several hours away. They were not from this community, and they drove here with the express purpose of taking Black lives.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Mr. Mayor, to, to sort of see this, we have this toxic stew of this, like, growing right-wing ideology, easy access to guns, and our permissive internet culture that sort of rewards sharing some of these violent ideas. Where do we go first? How do we -- how do we -- how do you make African Americans in Buffalo feel safe today? Let me start there.
MAYOR BYRON BROWN:
Well, the thing that this tragedy shows us is that this can occur anywhere. It's not just Buffalo. It's how to make people all across this country feel safe. It's not just African Americans, it's how to make people in urban America, suburban America and rural America feel safe. The only way to do it is to really get to the point of sensible gun control in this country, to end hate speech on the internet and social media, to stop the proliferation of hateful ideology. Those are the ways that we make Black people feel safe in Buffalo, that we make people feel safe all across this country.
CHUCK TODD:
Have you been able to spend any time with victims' families? What have they been telling you? What, what, what would they like you to do?
MAYOR BYRON BROWN:
Tremendous pain. Victims' families just thinking about their loved ones. The precious lives that were lost senselessly. The hurt that they feel. The pain that they feel. And wanting to go on because their loved ones would want them to go on. Buffalo's a loving community. We are known nationally and internationally as the city of good neighbors. So we will, as a community, wrap our arms around the families of those we lost. We will continue to lift them up. We will continue to lift this community up. And we won't let an act of a hateful madman bring this community down and keep our community from moving forward.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, there's only so much you can do as mayor. You're going to need some help from the federal level here. What would you like to see from the federal government to make your job easier to keep Buffalo safe?
MAYOR BYRON BROWN:
Well, we've seen many of these mass shootings around the country year in and year out, month in and month out. And it's always the same refrain. People send their thoughts and their prayers. Lawmakers in Washington say that there's something that must be done. And then there are some on one side of the aisle that block anything from being done. It seems like there are those that believe owning a gun is more precious than the sanctity of human life. So I think people all across this country have to rise up. They have to speak more loudly and more clearly that there must be gun control in this country. This is a uniquely American phenomenon. These mass shootings don't happen in other countries across the world. We have to ask ourselves, and more than ask ourselves, we have to take action to stop it, to stop it after this Buffalo, New York incident to make sure that other communities, that other families don't go through this again.
CHUCK TODD:
Sadly, Mr. Mayor, what you just said to me has been said to me by a lot of mayors in moments like this. And you just pointed it out. And it – and that’s the – wash, rinse, repeat cycle of Washington not listening to the mayors on this is very frustrating. You know, I know there's not a lot more that can be done, I guess, other than, than, than rhetoric here. But is there something else you'd like to see done?
MAYOR BYRON BROWN:
Well, I would like to see sensible gun control. I would like to see ending hate speech on the internet, on social media. It is not free speech. It is not the American way. We are not a nation of haters. We are not a nation of hate. We need to send the message that there is no place on the internet for hate speech, for hate indoctrination, for spreading hate manifestos. So I'd like to see real, deliberate action taken on gun control and ending hate speech on the internet. I will be a stronger voice for that. I've heard from mayors all over the country in the aftermath of this incident. I've heard from mayors, actually, all across the world. And I believe that what happened in Buffalo, New York yesterday is going to be a turning point. I think it's going to be different after this, in terms of the energy and the activity that we see.
CHUCK TODD:
Mr. Mayor, I hope you're right. I hope you're right. We keep wondering when is the incident going to be the one that finally shakes us out of this? Mayor Byron Brown of Buffalo, thank you so much, sir.
MAYOR BYRON BROWN:
Thank you, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is New York's governor Kathy Hochul, who is also a Buffalo native. Governor, welcome to Meet the Press. And what I know has been a pretty difficult 24 hours.
GOV. KATHY HOCHUL:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me just start. Look, this is your hometown. I imagine the pain is immense no matter what, but this is your hometown. Tell me about it.
GOV. KATHY HOCHUL:
It's gut-wrenching. Chuck, this is my hometown. I've lived here my entire life. I live in the city just, you know, a few minutes from here. I worked in local politics here with a guy named Tim Russert as a teenager. So these streets are my streets. And it is just shattering to the collective psyche of this wonderful tight-knit community to know that there is such hate out there that someone is willing to travel a distance to come and shatter the lives of so many just well-meaning people just out there grocery shopping. So no. It hurts. It hurts like hell.
CHUCK TODD:
This is a toxic stew of a rising right-wing extremism ideology that's out there: white supremacy, easy access to guns, and a permissive culture on the internet. And it all met together in this horrendous attack. Where do you begin when it comes to figuring out how we can tackle all of this?
GOV. KATHY HOCHUL:
Well, you're right. There's three components of this. The white supremacist terrorism, the radicalization that's occurring of our young people, particularly who are vulnerable to these evil ideas. It's all induced by the internet. And the fact that platforms are willing to share this information, allow it to be posted, a manifesto that's been out there that describes in great detail how someone wants to have an execution of individuals in a community that's targeted because it's the highest Black population within a geographic area, that's all out there. And also the fact that this can be live-streamed. How long was it live-streamed before someone paid attention? These companies make a lot of money. They're very profitable. And in my judgment, they have the opportunity to be doing far more monitoring and shut things down before it gets to this situation. But also it's about access to guns. And in New York, we have the toughest gun laws in the nation. But right now, we have a case before the Supreme Court that could be decided in a matter of weeks that could allow people to have a gun that's concealed, to walk in the Tops behind me with a concealed weapon this time. So we've got to deal with that access to guns that's coming in from places like Pennsylvania, only a few minutes from where the accused lived. And he could have just gone right over to Pennsylvania and was able to enhance the gun he bought legally in New York, but also to have an increased capacity magazine, which is exactly what we think he did, as well as just the pervasiveness attitude that this replacement theory, that you're going to target Blacks and immigrants and Jews because they're going to replace the whites? So you're absolutely right. It is a trifecta. It is a storm here. And all of us have to be vigilant and work closely together to stop this now.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, let me ask on guns. A lot of people are going to scratch their heads and go, "Wow. An 18-year-old could legally buy most of these weapons?" And the answer is yes. Isn't it?
GOV. KATHY HOCHUL:
Well, in many states, legally, yes. In the state of New York, what he was able to buy was an AR-15, but he was able to enhance the magazine capacity. I mean, you can't have that many rounds purchased legally here in the state of New York. But you just go over to Pennsylvania. Go to a gun show. This is why when I became new governor just a few months ago, I started a nine state gun interjection task force because we know most of the illegal guns being used on the streets of New York City and now on the streets of Buffalo are coming from out of state. We need a national response.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
GOV. KATHY HOCHUL:
Since my time in Congress, we have been trying to get a national response. And so individual states will do the best they can. And I'm going to be proposing more gun laws on Tuesday at a pre-scheduled press conference, even before this event occurred. But we need other states to step up. We need the federal government on our side.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, let's talk about holding these internet companies responsible. Obviously, there's this law on the books that allows the internet to, sort of, escape liability on so many things that, frankly, we, as television broadcasters, cannot escape the same liability. Do you think they should be held responsible for the easy spread of this propaganda?
GOV. KATHY HOCHUL:
I hold them responsible for not monitoring and alerting law enforcement. That's exactly the issue here, is that it is fomenting. People are sharing these ideas. They're sharing videos of other attacks. And they're all copycat. They all want to be the next great white hope that's going to inspire the next attack. We can't let that continue. And we know where it's occurring. It's not happening in the basement of a KKK meeting anymore where you have a limited number of people who are succumbing to these evil influences. This is happening globally. They're looking at what happened in New Zealand and what happened in Pittsburgh and what happened in South-- they read this. They absorb this. This becomes part of their mentality. And they share it with others through the internet. And that's the responsibility of the internet and of the individuals who are responsible are the ones who own these companies. And I'm going to be talking to them directly.
CHUCK TODD:
We also have TV commentators and some political figures that, sort of, appease this right-wing extremism. Sort of, you know, anybody that pushes back, maybe they come after it on speech grounds, freedom of speech or things like this, that it certainly seems as if there is a growing virus on the far right here that is spreading dangerously.
GOV. KATHY HOCHUL:
And they need to be held accountable as well. And any government leader that does not condemn this and condemn it today is a coward, and they're also partially responsible. So let's just be real honest about the role of elected leaders. And what they need to be doing is calling this out and not coddling this behavior and saying that, "Well, that's just young people and they're sharing their ideas." Yeah, I'll protect the First Amendment any day of the week. But you don't protect hate speech. You don't protect incendiary speech. You're not allowed to scream "fire" in a crowded theater. There are limitations on speech. And right now, we have seen this run rampant. And as a result, I have ten dead neighbors in this community. And it hurts. And we're going to do something about it.
CHUCK TODD:
It really does hurt. Governor Kathy Hochul, I really appreciate you spending a few minutes with us. And just know we're all thinking of everybody there in Buffalo.
GOV. KATHY HOCHUL:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Panel is here. The Reverend Al Sharpton, host of Politics Nation on MSNBC; Washington bureau chief for U.S.A. Today, Susan Page; Washington Post contributing columnist Matt Bai; Republican strategist Al Cardenas; and Washington Post White House bureau chief Ashley Parker. Reverend Sharpton, we have a toxic stew here: white supremacy ideology that's spreading, easy access to guns, permissive internet culture that almost encourages sharing of this far-right ideology. Where do we start?
REV. AL SHARPTON:
We start by changing the tone nationally. We cannot just keep going through, as you said to Mayor Brown, we've heard mayors say this before, and the government, the federal government doesn't do anything. Last night, when I started getting calls from our National Action Network chapter in Buffalo about what happened, and then I started getting calls from government officials, first thing I said is, "President Biden needs to call a summit meeting of Black, Jewish, Asian leaders and sit down and talk about the growing problem of hate crimes, and that this government will not stand by and allow this to happen." We need to have a tone where young guys like this understand the federal government will come down on them. They're monitoring what's going on, and they're not going to tolerate it. He should do this right away. I mean, we've gone from Tree of Life, from Charleston, to now we're in Buffalo, and we're just putting out regular press releases, rather than dealing with this with the urgency that it requires. And I reached out to ADL head Jonathan Greenblatt and others and said, "We ought to jointly go to the White House and deal with this” because it is not just Blacks. It is Jews. It is Asians. It is LGBTQ. It's hate everywhere.
CHUCK TODD:
Latinos in El Paso.
REV. AL SHARPTON:
Latinos, really Latinos. So it's hate everywhere. The president needs to preside and say, "This can't be tolerated."
CHUCK TODD:
Al, on the far-right, there’s this growing virus. It feels like not enough leaders on the right call it out. There's an appeasement of it, to be generous here.
AL CARDENAS:
Listen, there used to be political parties. There used to be serious politicians who would step up and speak out against these kinds of things. When David Duke ran for office, hey, I spoke out as party chairman. Others did. It was well known that he was an individual on his own, not part of a family. Now, it's to the contrary. People keep silent, and that silence is interpreted in ways that are not healthy. I'll tell you this. I'm frustrated in America that we're so incapable of doing things. When George Floyd was killed, there were massive demonstrations. I thought there was going to be a move for social justice. And very little has happened. You know, when in Florida, we had Parkland, and then we had the mass shooting in a gay dance hall, where a nephew of my wife was killed, there was some limited action. But when you look at this, the frustration in America has to do with the fact that horrific things are happening, government's not doing anything, and political leaders are not doing anything. And that's what the calamity is.
ASHLEY PARKER:
And the other component of this, of course, is guns. The reverend is right that tone matters incredibly. But then you look at how all of these hate crimes are committed, and they are all committed with guns. And this is an area where Congress has been able to do absolutely nothing. There will be – you saw people you were interviewing talking about sensible gun reform. But you look at Sandy Hook. You look at kindergarteners massacred. You look at Mother Emanuel, a shooting in a church. You look at what happened in Las Vegas at the country music concert. Guns have now touched every aspect of society, and Congress has been able to do absolutely nothing.
SUSAN PAGE:
So why do we feel so helpless on mornings like this, that we're just having the same conversation we've had before? Because there are, in fact, things that we could do. Law enforcement could do more to surveil these toxic sites. Social media companies could do more to bring them down. The news media could do more to cover them. Lawmakers could do more to find some kind of common ground on guns. And Americans could stand up and say, "These shootings, these hate shootings do not reflect America. This is a radical fringe." Americans need to stand up and say, "We won't stand for this anymore."
MATT BAI:
I mean, we've talked about this. I covered Columbine, you know, back when this was new. This is now a part of the culture. It's a recurring thing. And Ashley's right. Congress has done absolutely nothing. But, you know, to speak to what Reverend Al was saying earlier, you know, I don't think – and we may disagree about this. I'm certain, you know, I can have a disagreement with a lot of people – I don't think this is a more hateful, more racist country than it was 25 years ago, certainly not 50 years ago. I do think we have a segment of our political leadership that has emboldened and legitimized a very extreme and dangerous segment of our political dialogue. And they have to take responsibility for that. There's a culpability for that. And it is tied to the violence.
AL CARDENAS:
But Matt, racism has gone from being fringe to mainstream.
MATT BAI:
Yeah, for sure.
AL CARDENAS:
That's the problem.
MATT BAI:
That is the problem. That is the problem.
CHUCK TODD:
It's an organizing tool.
REV. AL SHARPTON:
Well, the problem is --
CHUCK TODD:
It feels like a political organizing tool, at times.
AL CARDENAS:
Yes.
REV. AL SHARPTON:
But the problem is it has been normalized.
MATT BAI:
That's right.
REV. AL SHARPTON:
You have to remember, this is an 18-year-old that is accused in Buffalo. When he was 15, Charlottesville happened. The President of the United States at that time said, "There are good people, or fine people, on both sides." So this gives them comfort. That's why Joe Biden, who I believe is a decent and good man, needs to set a different tone, and we need to deal with guns because a tone was set while this guy was a kid, being impressionable, that this is all right to be marching, saying, "Jews will not replace me." That's what he saw at 15 years old.
MATT BAI:
That's right.
REV. AL SHARPTON:
And he saw it from the White House.
ASHLEY PARKER:
And there's something particularly devastating about the fact that Joe Biden said he was impelled to run for president because of Charlottesville.
REV. AL SHARPTON:
Exactly.
ASHLEY PARKER:
And he seemed to mean that sincerely. And now, you look at what's happening, and it feels like nothing has changed. The culture is the exact same.
CHUCK TODD:
It does seem, Matt and Susan, that every time there is an attempt to sort of deal with, particularly deal with domestic terrorism, this white supremacy issue, all of a sudden there are a whole bunch of Republicans in Congress that start screaming, "Speech."
SUSAN PAGE:
Well, free speech is important. Free speech is not a license to endorse things like replacement theory, this terrible, terrible theory that there's an elite, many of them Jews, trying to replace America with a Black and Brown nation to dilute the power of white people. That is un-American. What elected official --
CHUCK TODD:
It's inhumane. It’s more than un-American. It’s inhumane.
MATT BAI:
Chuck, I'm as close to a free speech absolutist as you're probably going to find. And I really believe that free speech is threatened in a lot of corners in society. But free speech demands leadership. When you have a society that is free, you also have to have a society with leaders who stand up for morality and for the right instincts in the culture so that you don't take things that are on the margins of the society, as you say, and bring them into the mainstream and legitimize them. We have failed on that count. And we continue to fail. And these are the consequences.
AL CARDENAS:
Every day. It's every day. You know, immigration's a big deal to me. For immigrant children, babies, to be blamed for formula shortage, I mean, come on. I mean, we're trying to find hate everywhere we can.
CHUCK TODD:
You're absolutely right. And there are people on the right that are intentionally trying to create that divide on that issue too. All right. When we come back, I'm going to talk to Senator Bernie Sanders. We're going to talk a little bit about the midterm elections. We have a new NBC News poll that shows Democrats are headed for some big trouble in November, so I talk about that with the senator, an interview we taped before the events of yesterday. Stay with us.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. We’re going to turn now to politics. It's a truism that voters' views about the economy begin to harden in an election year around May. If that theory holds, the Democrats are in some serious trouble right now, because in our new NBC News poll, just 16% say the country is headed in the right direction, while a whopping 75% say we're on the wrong track. In fact, that wrong track number has been 70-plus for seven months, which in the past has signaled big losses for the governing party. President Biden's numbers have hit a new low: Only 39% approve of his job performance, against 56% who disapprove. In fact, the president has now become as unpopular as Donald Trump in this poll. Here's another warning sign for Democrats: Voters are split over who they want controlling Congress, 46- 46. That sounds close, but for what it's worth in 2010 Republicans had just a two-point lead on this question nationally, and they wound up gaining six Senate seats and 63 House seats. If there is anything approaching a silver lining for Democrats, it's the issue of abortion, given the leaked Supreme Court draft decision. Sixty percent say abortion should be legal all or most of the time -- the highest we’ve ever recorded in our poll -- versus just 37% who say abortion should illegal all or most of the time. And abortion has now become the top issue for people who will decide how to vote based on a single issue. Yesterday, I spoke to Bernie Sanders, the independent senator from Vermont about what he thinks Democrats can do to avoid a shellacking in November.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me start with what you know probably instinctively these days, but our polling has found. 75% of the country thinks we're headed in the wrong direction. In fact, just 28% of Democrats right now think the country is headed in the right direction. Where do you stand? Do you think we're headed in the wrong direction?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
I sure do. Look, what we're looking at is a nation today where the billionaire class, the people on top, are doing phenomenally well, Chuck. The middle class continues to decline. We're seeing increased concentration of ownership in America, which has huge impacts for ordinary people. You got three Wall Street firms – Vanguard, BlackRock and State Street – that have assets of over $20 trillion, controlling hundreds of corporations. You're seeing millions of people unable to afford the cost of prescription drugs, unable to afford health care, unable to put gas in the tank. So, how could anyone think that what's going on right now is good? And obviously, what I and other progressives are trying to do is put together a movement which tells the billionaire class in this country – whose profits are soaring, who are getting richer and richer – you know what, you can't have it all. We need an economy that works for the middle class, the working class, the elderly, the children, not just the few on top.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, it's interesting when you talk about the movement. Because there’s definitely – we see it in our own polling – there are more people that agree with sort of your mindset, your framing. “We need big structural change.” But what do we do now before the elections? You know, at the end of the day, you have the Senate that you have, not the one that you want. What can get done now that could actually mitigate what looks like it's going to be a tough year for Democrats?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Look, we passed early on in the Biden administration one of the most significant pieces of legislation in the modern history of this country and that was the American Rescue Plan, which, Chuck, in my view, did a whole lot to help people deal with the economic turmoil that we saw as a result of Covid and massive unemployment. What we have got to do right now – it's not hard. You know what you do? You listen to the American people and not wealthy campaign contributors. What does that mean? It means that, right now, you lower the outrageous cost of prescription drugs in this country. You have the guts to take on the pharmaceutical industry that, right now, has 1,500 paid lobbyists in Washington, D.C. You expand Medicare. I happen to believe, as candidates that I support believe, that healthcare is a human right, not a function of making huge profits for the insurance companies and the people who own them. You've got to move toward expanding healthcare. You've got to raise the minimum wage to a living wage. You've got to create millions of jobs by dealing with the existential threat of climate. And by the way, you've got to do what the American people want and understand that it is women who have the right to control their own bodies, not the government.
CHUCK TODD:
Okay, everything you said there was being addressed in Build Back Better. Okay? It wasn't as big as you wanted it. It was too big for some. But why do we have nothing, right? That is the head-scratcher here. Understand you don't have it all. Why is it zero? Why is there nothing?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
It’s – well, it should not be a head-scratcher. You've got two members of the senate, Senator Manchin and Senator Sinema, who have sabotaged what the president has been fighting for --
CHUCK TODD:
That's a strong word, “sabotage” --
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
– who have sabotaged -- well, you help me out with a better word here. You've got 48 members of the Senate who wanted to go forward with an agenda that helped working families, that was prepared to take on the wealthy and the powerful. You had a president who wanted to do that. You had two people who prevented us from doing it. You have a better word than sabotage? That's fine. But I think that is the right word. And I think pressure has got to be put on the part of people in West Virginia, in Arizona, to say, “You know what, why don't you stand up for ordinary Americans and not just your wealthy campaign contributors? Why don't you have the guts to take on the drug companies and the insurance companies and the fossil fuel industry?”
CHUCK TODD:
So let me ask you, though. I’ve – look, I've talked to Pennsylvania Democrats and they also blame Senators Manchin and Sinema. They don't blame the Republicans. Is that healthy for the party, that all of this concentration on -- should you have found something to do that isolates the Republicans rather than you guys ended up dividing the party against itself?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
No, I don't see it that way, Chuck. I mean, I think on all of these issues we had zero Republican support for the proposals in Medicare, in Build Back Better that were enormously popular. So it's certainly not just Manchin and Sinema. They are two out of the 50 Democrats who went in the wrong direction. But every Republican did. So if your point is it's not just Manchin and Sinema, you're right. It is every Republican. Now, the problem, I think, is we have not done a good job in making that clear to the American people.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you about the vote to codify Roe this week. This is one of those votes that had 49 Democrats, not 50. Should it have been a – should you – should the leadership have put a bill on the floor that could have gotten 52 votes, including Collins and Murkowski, to isolate the 48 Republican nos?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
No. I mean, I think – we'll see what happens. But to answer your question, I think nobody should think that this process is dead. We should bring those bills up again, and again, and again. I can’t – I was just at a rally earlier, you know, on Saturday in Montpelier, Vermont, my state capitol. I mean, people cannot believe that you have a Supreme Court and Republicans who are prepared to overturn 50 years of precedent. So I think what we should do is, on this bill, end the filibuster, do everything that we can to get 50 votes on the strongest possible bill to protect a woman's right to control her own body.
CHUCK TODD:
Before we had this leak opinion about Roe being overturned, you didn't, you didn’t use the abortion issue as a reason not to support people. You would have – you've supported pro-life progressives, if they were progressive on economic issues.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Well --
CHUCK TOOD:
I recall a mayor of Omaha. I recall a race like that. Has your mind changed?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
There you go. A mayor of Omaha –
CHUCK TODD:
No, I understand that. But has your, has your philosophy changed? Is that a litmus test for you now for progressives?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
No. Well, I do find it interesting that in this particular moment, when literally a woman's right to choose is, is right at stake, that we have too many Democrats who are prepared to support a candidate in Texas who's one of the few anti-pro-choice members of Congress. I’m supporting –
CHUCK TODD:
You're speaking of Henry Cuellar. You think that's a mistake?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Yeah, I do. And I think – I'm supporting Jessica Cisneros down there. I hope she wins. I'm supporting Summer Lee in Pennsylvania. I hope she wins as well.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think at this point, being pro-life, you can't be in the Democratic Party or in the Democratic coalition? Are you, are you ready to go that far?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Well, I mean that’s a – that’s a – you know, we will see. All that I can say is I think you have the overwhelming majority of people who consider themselves to be Democrats to be pro-choice. I have been pro-choice my entire life. And the candidates that I am supporting now are all pro-choice. Look, a woman's right to control her own body is really on the line, and we’ve got to do everything we can to defend that right.
CHUCK TODD:
Last question. Are you, are you definitely going to rule out ever being a presidential candidate again, or if there's an open race in 2024, could you run?
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Why did I think, why did I think you might ask that question?
CHUCK TODD:
Well, Faiz Shakir wrote it in his memo.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
You don’t – look, no politician I know rules out, you know, all options. You know, everything is on the table. But, you know, right now my focus is to do everything that I can to elect candidates to Congress who are going to stand up and fight for working families in this coming midterm election.
CHUCK TODD:
Fair enough. Senator Bernie Sanders from Vermont. Always a pleasure, sir. Thanks for coming on, sharing your perspective.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Thank you very much.
CHUCK TODD:
You got it.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. In our final episode of this season's Meet the Press Reports, we put together a remarkable war game simulation of how the U.S. might react if China invaded Taiwan. The national security think tank, Center for a New American Security, or CANS, convened two teams, the blue team representing the United States and the red team, representing China. Which side would prevail? Would China attack the U.S. mainland? Could nuclear war break out? The conflict takes place in 2027. There are three rounds of strategy. And I spoke to the game master after each round to see where the conflict stood. Here's a look.
CHRIS DOUGHERTY:
As you can see here on the map is a very large concentration of Chinese People's Liberation Army forces at potential ports of debarkation for an invasion.
MICHÈLE FLOURNOY:
We want to focus on a last-ditch effort to deter. This is a time to be sending the strongest possible message to Beijing, both privately and publicly, that there will be very severe costs if they actually go through with this.
ALICE HUNT FRIEND:
China has sort of seen our reaction to Ukraine, and we want to make sure that we are surprising them with how we react here.
RICHARD FONTAINE:
Hit the Americans as hard as we possibly can in the Western Pacific. Keep them out of the fight while we move on Taiwan.
JOEL WUTHNOW:
I would support an early, knock-out punch against Guam.
BONNY LIN:
The priority for the first 24 hours is to try to go as fast as possible against Taipei, right? I think it matters to deter United States, Japan, Australia and other countries from intervening.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, Stacie, high level here. What just happened with move one?
DR. STACIE PETTYJOHN:
China's invaded Taiwan. It began by attacking Taiwan's outlying islands near the mainland. Then, it followed it with a large air and missile strike on Taiwan and on U.S. bases in Japan, and on U.S. bases in Guam and the Northern Marianas. In response to that, the United States followed up with bomber attacks on U.S. – Chinese ships in port. And there was an air battle over Taiwan, where American aircraft flying from the Philippines came in and engaged in combat with Chinese aircrafts that were trying to bomb Taiwan.
CHUCK TODD:
So after move one, can you assess which team is winning? If you want to find out what the winning move was, and I'm sure you do, check out Meet the Press Reports wherever you get NBC News Now. Coming up, Republicans seem poised for huge gains in November. But could the abortion issue help generate some Democratic enthusiasm? Stay with us.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Before the events of 24 hours ago, we were going to do a pretty big lead-in to the midterms. There's still a big primary day on Tuesday. You know, Reverend Sharpton, our poll, it's interesting, and you heard the interview with Senator Sanders. How do you fire up the left in an environment like this for the Democratic party?
REV. AL SHARPTON:
You've got to turn people on to turn them out. And I think the issues of the left that the African American or Black community, Latinos and all, are concerned about are not really the issues that they can say that we've had deliverables on. George Floyd Justice in Policing Act, John Lewis Voting Bill. I think the president needs to do some executive orders. I think that we need to start seeing some progressive fighting in the trenches on a lot of these issues. All of this trying to be moderate in tone and style as you are in politics is not going to work. People came out --
CHUCK TODD:
Should Buffalo galvanize this even more?
REV. AL SHARPTON:
Buffalo and women's right to choose put in the right context, because what people need to understand is that if the Supreme Court in fact sends this back to Mississippi, this decision, they are saying Roe versus Wade no longer protects you. We're going back to states' rights. Well, if you start talking about states' rights, that means something else to me as a Black. Wait a minute. We're going back to states' rights? Wait a minute. Or LGBTQ. We're going back to states' rights? This decision by the Supreme Court could galvanize everyone if it's, if it’s put in the right context that this is a states' rights decision. If you say that states can decide women's right to choose, they can decide LGBTQ rights, they can decide voting rights, Blacks – they can galvanize, if the Democrats come forward and galvanize.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Al, in our poll, look, it is still advantage Republicans. You can see it in the polling. But wow, has the abortion decision suddenly given life to the Democratic coalition. You can see that, if it indeed happens, it might level or get close to leveling the playing field.
AL CARDENAS:
Yeah. I think, you know, a question I ask myself, is that gender equal? You know, the abortion issue. Is it age driven? Is it a top issue for some people, especially those over 50? Having said all of that, there's so much passion out there, particularly on the left, that it should count for something, especially turnout. You know, may I add, you know, maybe out of the box, but how shocked I am about the primaries in Ohio and Pennsylvania. As a national observer, I mean, these are two Midwestern states seeking to replace Rob Portman and Pat Toomey, two center-right --
CHUCK TODD:
Very conventional Republicans --
AL CARDENAS:
Conventional, yeah. And, you know, here I am watching these two primaries that are about to develop. I'm saying, "How did Ohio and Pennsylvania kind of change so radically in, like, four years?"
MATT BAI:
Not only that, but we remember when Pat Toomey was not a conventional Republican. He was --
AL CARDENAS:
Right, right, yeah.
MATT BAI:
– dubbed a far right renegade.
AL CARDENAS:
And the Democrats on the other hand, you know, really showed a steady hand. Tim Ryan and, and what's coming up in the primary. But the Republicans have made a total turnaround.
CHUCK TODD:
So here's what's fascinating, Ashley and Susan, it's that Donald– you know, we're all trying to figure out, does Donald Trump's endorsement matter? Well, we'll see. Trumpism is dominating these primaries, and it's actually hurting Dr. Oz. I think, I think the former president picked the wrong Trump candidate.
ASHLEY PARKER:
Well, there is also a world where, you're right, MAGA has become, in certain ways, bigger than former President Trump. And, you know, I think that's what you're seeing with the late surge from Kathy Barnette in Pennsylvania. And it's fascinating. Even if you watched him as a president, there were moments when Trump as president felt pulled between being the promise of the dealmaker that people hoped, and his far right base, what folks were saying on Fox News. And in all of those moments, he always retreated to the far right base, because there's a part of him that, that lives a little bit in fear of them. He absolutely leads them, but he also worries about them.
SUSAN PAGE:
Trump wins anyway in this Pennsylvania primary, whether his endorsed candidate wins or one of the other two candidates. They're all bunched together. We don't know who's --
CHUCK TODD:
They all want --
SUSAN PAGE:
– going to win.
CHUCK TODD:
– to beat Trump. They have not --
SUSAN PAGE:
And in fact --
CHUCK TODD:
– run away from him, not like a – Pat McCrory, who's actually running against Trumpism in North Carolina. You're not seeing that here --
SUSAN PAGE:
He's still --
CHUCK TODD:
– in Pennsylvania.
SUSAN PAGE:
– the face of the party. Fifty-five percent of Republicans told you in your poll that they want him to be the face of the Republican Party, this after all that's happened, his loss in the last election. But in fact, his statement against the candidate who's on the surge in Pennsylvania said, "She can't win in the general, but by the way, if she does, I'm all for her."
MATT BAI:
I mean, to go back to something we were talking about earlier in the last segment, the ideology pre-existed Trump. Trump didn't invent MAGA or MAGA-ism, whatever you want to call it that's dominating the party. He unleashed it and legitimized it and its worth. But to an extent, I think on some of these primaries, we focus too much on ideology. To the extent that we even know what's going on in the electorate, a lot of it's this era of personality, right? It's persona. When you look at a Kathy Barnette, when you look at John Fetterman on the left --
CHUCK TODD:
Well, you brought up John Fetterman.
MATT BAI:
– I mean --
CHUCK TODD:
I was just going to say, Kathy Barnette and John Fetterman, they're not your cookie cutter politicians.
MATT BAI:
No. And story and persona and the celebrity you build matters a lot. Dr. Oz may not win that primary, but he's only there, as legitimate as he is, because he's a TV star. This is the era, as much as the ideology that Trump unleashed, it is this, this, this cult of personality in our politics over party, over ideology, over any other affiliation that he represents, and that will long outlive him.
SUSAN PAGE:
Here's the problem. Big personalities win elections. Big personalities have trouble governing once they win office.
REV. AL SHARPTON:
Well, Donald Trump. I mean, governing. I mean, you wouldn't put "governing" and "Donald Trump" in the same sentence. But the fact is that he not only is a big personality, he became a big personality for feelings that were already there. He tapped into what was there. And he became the crass representation of that. So a lot of people that felt that way, and act as uncouth as he acts, now felt like, "Hey, I've got a shot because not only does he speak to what I want, he is who I am: a very crass, uncouth kind of person."
CHUCK TODD:
Ashley, ultra-MAGA. This was a – this ultra-MAGA messaging by the team Biden, this was focus grouped?
ASHLEY PARKER:
Yes. It was the result of, believe it or not, about six months of research by liberal groups. Biden has decided to try to re-appropriate MAGA. He added on "ultra" with his own flair. And what you're seeing, of course, is that Republicans and Trump are --
(OVERTALK)
ASHLEY PARKER:
– re-appropriating it. They're proud to be MAGA. They are proud to be ultra-MAGA.
CHUCK TODD:
That's what they did with fake news.
MATT BAI:
That's going to change --
CHUCK TODD:
Like what they did --
MATT BAI:
– the outcome of --
CHUCK TODD:
– with fake news, anyway.
MATT BAI:
– of all the elections.
CHUCK TODD:
Thank you all for doing this. This was a tough show. These are tough issues once again, we're all dealing with, but we need to deal with them. That's all we have for today. Thank you for watching. Keep our friends in Buffalo in your thoughts today. By the way, I'll see the GW Class of 2022 in a little bit. Congratulations. And remember, if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.