CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday: Reopening America.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Now I want it open and we're going to open.
CHUCK TODD:
As the number of new cases levels off --
BEACHGOER:
I feel great, I feel like it's almost back to normal. Bring it on.
CHUCK TODD:
-- and nearly 40 million now newly unemployed --
SALON OWNER
I'm trying to earn a living because I'm trying to work.
CHUCK TODD:
-- an eager America slowly welcomes some return to normalcy.
WOMAN:
I couldn't wait. I saw on the news that they were open and I said, “I'm gonna go”.
CHUCK TODD:
Even amid concerns over opening too fast.
BARBARA FERER:
We would ask everyone to hold off on any kind of parties or large gatherings.
CHUCK TODD:
Plus, new hope for a vaccine.
STEPHEN HOGE:
We hope, if everything goes to plan, that we could have a vaccine by early next year.
DAN BAROUCH:
Our studies show, theoretically, that there is a natural protective immunity to the virus.
CHUCK TODD:
At issue this morning: Can we open quickly and safely And how soon could a vaccine be available? I'll talk to Governor Mike DeWine of Ohio and vaccine specialists Dan Barouch of Harvard and Peter Hotez of Baylor. Plus, new protests in Hong Kong as China announces a further crackdown on the territory. Does Beijing hope the world won't notice amid the coronavirus pandemic? This morning, I'll talk to National Security Advisor Robert O'Brien. Also, the fallout from this Joe Biden comment.
JOE BIDEN:
If you have a problem figuring out whether you're for me or Trump, then you ain't black.
CHUCK TODD:
Joining me for insight and analysis are: NBC News chief foreign affairs correspondent Andrea Mitchell, former Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson and O. Kay Henderson, news director of the Radio Iowa Network. Welcome to Sunday, it's Meet the Press and our continuing coverage of the coronavirus pandemic.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning on what is one of the more unusual Memorial Day weekends we've ever had. This is traditionally the time we celebrate the unofficial start of summer but this year we're also marking the unofficial reopening of the country. The pent-up demand to get out of houses, apartments and suffocating routines sent Americans pouring onto beaches and boardwalks, pools and picnics, into their cars, even as our trust -- in everything from the CDC to the WHO to the president -- is sinking and in some cases sinking fast. And on a weekend when Americans traditionally show the flag to remember those who died defending it, it's being flown at half staff to remember those who have died from this virus. As of this morning there are more than 1.6 million confirmed cases of COVID-19 in the United States, with the confirmed death toll approaching 100,000. And this here is the astonishing front page of today's New York Times, naming 1,000 people, just one percent of the nearly 100,000 dead, on that front page. Our eagerness to return to normal is tempered by this question: Is it safe? A poll out this week showed that 54 percent of those questioned say they're concerned that lifting restrictions will lead to more infections compared with just 16 percent who said they're not concerned. At the same time, there's an unprecedented worldwide sprint to produce a vaccine in just a few months, an effort that would normally take years, and still might. Until then, we're going to have to learn to live with the virus as we balance our personal safety with a desire to return to some degree of normalcy.
ANGIE CARPENTER:
A whole different Memorial Day, a whole different world, really, that we're in.
CHUCK TODD:
On a weekend traditionally devoted to honoring the wartime dead, Americans are struggling to make sense of a death toll that's climbed to nearly 100,000 over just three months.
REPORTER:
What would you have done differently facing this crisis?
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Well, nothing.
CHUCK TODD:
All 50 states are experimenting with easing restrictions in some form, as the holiday weekend tests how committed Americans are to containing the virus.
GOV. ROY COOPER:
I want you to have a great time but continue using caution.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Go out, wear a mask, stay 6 feet away from anyone.
DR. DEBORAH BIRX:
You can be outside, you can play golf, you can play tennis with marked balls.
CHUCK TODD:
Two studies tracking cell phone data have warning signs. Researchers from Imperial College in London find the virus may still be spreading at epidemic rates in at least 24 states, particularly in the South and Midwest. Another model from the PolicyLab at Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia also identifies new hot spots in Houston and Dallas, Alabama, Tennessee, and south Florida, among others.
MAYOR STEVEN REED:
If you're from Montgomery and you need an ICU bed, you're in trouble.
CHUCK TODD:
But instead of focusing on mitigation and improving testing capacity in those states, President Trump spent much of the week on a series of distractions. On Monday, he announced he is taking the anti-malaria drug Hydroxychloroquine. A new study links the drug to increased risk of death and heart arrhythmia in Covid patients.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I happen to be taking it. I happen to be taking it.
REPORTER:
Hydroxychloroquine?
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I'm taking it.
CHUCK TODD:
On Tuesday, he retweeted criticism of Christopher Wray, the FBI director he appointed.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
The Russian thing was a made-up, fabricated story.
CHUCK TODD:
On Wednesday, he threatened to withhold funds from states if they expanded access to voting by mail.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I think just common sense would tell you that it's -- massive manipulation can take place. Massive.
CHUCK TODD:
In fact, fraud via mail-in ballots is rare. President Trump voted by mail in the Florida primary in March. On Thursday, he defied the Michigan governor’s executive order by taking off his mask while touring a Ford plant which requires them.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I wore one in this back area, but I didn’t want to give the press the pleasure of seeing it.
CHUCK TODD:
On Friday, after a Fox News poll showed him trailing Joe Biden by 8 points, he tweeted "Fox News should fire their fake pollster." And through it all, he is pointing fingers and placing blame.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
It came in from China, and it should have been stopped in China. When I came here and you people knew it better than anybody, our military was depleted, just like the shelves were empty from medical equipment. We didn’t have ventilators, we didn’t have testing, we didn’t have anything.
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now are two experts to talk about this quest for a vaccine. From Houston we have Dr. Peter Hotez. He's the director of the Texas Children's Hospital Center for Vaccine Development. And from Boston we have Dr. Dan Barouch, director of the Center for Virology and Vaccine Research at the Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center. Gentlemen, welcome to both of you. Dr. Barouch, I just wanted to get you to react to something this morning. The FDA had -- Dr. Stephen Hahn at 6:30 this morning tweeted the following, "With the country starting to open up this holiday weekend I, again, remind everyone that the Coronavirus is not yet contained. It is up to every individual to protect themselves and their community. Social distancing, hand-washing and wearing masks protect us all." It's just interesting, Dr. Barouch, to see one of the administration’s scientists, health experts feeling the need to continue to remind the public of this. Do you think the public is as informed about this risk this weekend as they should be?
DR. DAN BAROUCH:
I think the public is very well-informed and there is a tension between the need to contain the virus and people's desire to get out of their houses. So the hope is that through public health measures as well as eventually the development of a vaccine that we will be able to contain this virus.
CHUCK TODD:
Let's talk about this race for a vaccine. Dr. Barouch, I want to start with you on this. We keep hearing this timeline of 12 to 18 months. Is that the heart or the head speaking?
DR. DAN BAROUCH:
The development of a vaccine, traditionally, is a very long process. Often it takes many years, even decades, for a new pathogen for which the human race has not seen before. So the attempt to develop a vaccine in 12 to 18 months or potentially even less than that is truly unprecedented. And to be successful, multiple parameters will have to be successful all at the same time. So I believe that it is theoretically possible. However, it is certainly not guaranteed. And if that were to be the case, then many, many things would have to go perfectly the first time.
CHUCK TODD:
Dr. Peter Hotez, you've been on the forefront of researching a vaccine for SARS. And let me ask you this, on one hand, that research may help expedite this vaccine. On the other hand, we still don't have one for SARS. What should that tell us?
DR. PETER HOTEZ:
Well, thanks for having me. You know, we spent a decade researching, developing vaccines for SARS, as you point out. And the quick answer was that if you can elicit high levels of a certain type of antibody known as neutralizing antibody, which blocks the virus from attaching to its receptor, you can make a vaccine. And we've been able to achieve that in the laboratory in experimental animals. And what I love this week was Dan Barouch wrote this absolutely beautiful paper in Science Magazine more or less coming to the same conclusion about SARS-2, the cause of COVID-19. So that tells me that the technical challenge of developing a COVID-19 vaccine is not that daunting. It's kind of a straightforward question that involves some old-school virology, very established attempts at making a vaccine. So I'm confident we're going to have a vaccine or as Dr. Fauci often says, cautiously optimistic. The problem is this, it does take time to accumulate enough safety and data to show that it actually works. And that's going to be the hard part. It's not a manufacturing problem. It's going to take us time to actually show that this will be both safe and effective. And I doubt we'll have that within a few months.
CHUCK TODD:
And I'm curious, Dr. Hotez, what's the likelihood that it's going to be 100% effective, the first vaccine? Is it more likely that we're going to have an experience like we have with the flu shot, which, you know, in some years, at best, it's a 50% protector for that year's flu virus.
DR. PETER HOTEZ:
Yes, quite possible. You know, what we're seeing from some vaccines is that they're partially protective, meaning they don't protect 100% but they may reduce hospitalization and death which is still very important. The point is the first vaccines released out of the starting gate I'd say a year from now or a year and a half from now may not be the ones we wind up with. History tells us that they get replaced with new and improved vaccines. So this is a gradual process. It’s not like there's going to be a magic bullet a year from now. It'll take time. We'll see new and improved vaccines. But things will get better.
CHUCK TODD:
Dr. Barouch, we saw -- how concerned should we in the public be that some pharmaceutical companies, let's look at Moderna, for instance. They announced what looked like a breakthrough. Their stock price surges. People on the company seem to get rich off of it. They looked to even raise more money after that. And I understand the way the pharmaceutical business works in some cases and maybe this was necessary to get the money for the research. But does that impact the public's credibility into this vaccine research?
DR. DAN BAROUCH:
There actually has been quite a number of pieces of good news on the vaccine front this week. Moderna's announcement of safety and at least early immunogenicity data in their study as well as safety and immunogenicity of another vaccine that was reported from China as well as our studies in the animal models all are pointing towards increasing optimism that a vaccine is likely going to be possible. However, there are many steps that remain.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, but to follow up on that question. I hear you -- the good news. Are you worried though that when accompanying stories are about how, and this has made them a whole bunch of money, and it looks like in some cases they want to use that hype to raise more money, that it looks like someone researching a vaccine is more interested in a profit margin?
DR. DAN BAROUCH:
Well, I think it's always better to have data available to the scientific community at the time of an announcement. And so we hope that the data from the Moderna studies will be available soon. And I hear that they are preparing for that.
CHUCK TODD:
Dr. Hotez, you've been concerned about the phrase, "Operation Warp Speed." Dr. Fauci also has. Explain to our viewers why that phrase in particular concerns you?
DR. PETER HOTEZ:
Well, what I'm concerned about, Chuck is, you know, we've got a very aggressive anti-vaccine movement out there. And their central tenants are one, that vaccines cause autism. And I've spent a lot of my life refuting that. I wrote a -- because I'm a vaccine scientist, the parent of an adult daughter with autism and wrote this book “Vaccines Did Not Cause Rachel's Autism” which has made me public enemy number one with the anti-vaccine movement. But the other things that they allege is that one, vaccines are not adequately tested for safety, that we rush vaccines and that there's this cozy relationship between the pharma companies and the U.S. government. And so everything that's been happening with some of the things Moderna's been doing and others, you know, plays right into all of the assertions made by the anti-vaccine lobby to the point. And the White House “Operation Warp Speed” phraseology which is just awful. So I worry, and the numbers now support this, Reuters just published a study of this last week saying that 25% of Americans probably won't take COVID-19 vaccines even if they're made available. And to the point where I'm worried we won't have sufficient herd immunity to achieve all of our desired effects. So that creates a lot of concerns.
CHUCK TODD:
Dr. Barouch, you brought up the good news that we heard out of China. Let me ask you this, are you concerned if China gets the vaccine first and they're, sort of, the, quote, unquote, winner here and they're sharing it with the world, will that -- are you concerned the public might be leery of taking a vaccine from China?
DR. DAN BAROUCH:
Well, Chuck, what we need is not one vaccine. The world actually needs multiple vaccines because there are seven billion people in the world. And we hope that the number of people who take the vaccine is greater than the 75% that Dr. Hotez mentioned. But still, we're talking about billions of people in the world that will need to be vaccinated. So this is not a race to be first. This is a global cooperation in which multiple regions of the world and multiple companies need to work together to develop vaccines for a very, very large number of people.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. Dan Barouch from Boston and Harvard, and Peter Hotez from Baylor with us from Houston, thank you both for sharing your expertise with our viewers. Much appreciated. Have a safe Memorial Day weekend. And joining me now is the Republican governor of Ohio, Mike DeWine. Governor DeWine, welcome back to Meet the Press.
GOV. MIKE DEWINE:
Morning, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to start with, look, this Memorial Day weekend, one of the top places to go normally in your state would be Cedar Point. Cedar Point, an amusement park, not yet open. When do you think that's going to happen? And is that, to you, the real start that, okay, you're at a next level of reopening in the state of Ohio?
GOV. MIKE DEWINE:
Well, that would be a next level of reopening. Chuck, I have no idea when Cedar Point will be able to open. Our kids and grandkids love to go there. We would love to go there. But we're certainly not there yet. If you look at our data, our replication rate is one to one. We are now reopening. We've got to see how this reopening is going. The reports I get back, it's going pretty well. Our restaurants are doing what they need to do, keeping the space. Retail is doing the same thing. But we're not there yet as far as, you know, mass gatherings of people.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you have a -- what is -- do you have a metric where you'll pull the emergency brake in your mind? And is that a metric you're willing to share with the public? I mean, I'm thinking about the next three weeks. We're going to find out how Memorial Day weekend went probably around Father's Day weekend.
GOV. MIKE DEWINE:
Well, Chuck, the thing I keep talking to the people of the state of Ohio is, and by the way, they did a great job for two months keeping the distance. Now we're at a different phase as we open up. And so not only do we have to wash our hands, keep a distance, but now we're asking everyone who's out in public to wear a mask. I mean there was a recent review done by Stanford of, I think, 17 different studies that had been done in regard to masks. And they are very effective in stopping these droplets that we put out when we talk and when we sneeze and do other things. And so it really is going to depend, I think, on how well all of us do. I have great confidence in Ohioans. And so we're really promoting wearing the masks and keeping that distance as we open up the economy. We think we can do two things at once.
CHUCK TODD:
You brought up the mask debate. I was going to wait until later in this interview to bring up a fellow governor in North Dakota. I want to play for you what he said about the mask debate on Friday. Take a listen, Governor.
[BEGIN TAPE]
GOV. DOUG BURGUM:
If someone is wearing a mask, they're not doing it to represent what political party they're in or what candidates they support. They might be doing it because they've got a five-year-old child who's been going through cancer treatments. They might have vulnerable adults in their life who currently have COVID and are fighting.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
For those of us that have covered American politics for so long, it was hard not to be moved by that governor's message just now, Governor DeWine, because it was like,“How did masks become this political dividing line?” You yourself wanted to make it mandatory and you decided to back off. Do you wish the president would help you out here a little bit more?
GOV. MIKE DEWINE:
Well, the governor is right. The governor's spot on. I've watched that clip a couple of times. And this is not about politics, this is not about whether you're liberal or conservative, left or right, Republican, Democrat. We wear the mask, and it's been very clear what the studies have shown, you wear the mask not to protect yourself so much as to protect others. And this is one time when we truly are all in this together. What we do directly impacts others. And we're not saying -- if you're in a car and you're driving by yourself, you don't have to wear a mask. You don't have to wear a mask if you're out, you know, away from people hiking or doing all kinds of different things or in your own house. But when you go out and interact directly with people, we're asking Ohioans to do this. And so it doesn’t -- it's not about politics, it's not about conservative or liberal. It's about helping other people.
CHUCK TODD:
Is there a point that you're going to reissue your executive order? Or do you feel as if the pushback you got and you're like, "Okay, I'll just publicly keep telling you that I think you should do it."
GOV. MIKE DEWINE:
Well, our order does say that every employee in every business, unless there is some reason that they can't wear that mask, every employee's wearing a mask today. So that's a fundamental change in Ohio. As we go out, a lot of stores you'll see 90% of the people who do, the customers are wearing masks. But we want to continue to up that throughout the state because it is really what we need as we open up the economy. Look, Chuck, this is a risk. But it's also a risk if we don't open up the economy. All the downsides of not opening up the economy. We can do both these things.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you quickly about Congress and the lack of debate right now about the next round of funding, of aid, rescue money, whatever you want to call it, in this case if it's still rescue or stimulus. What does the state of Ohio, what do you need in your budget from the federal government?
GOV. MIKE DEWINE:
Well, we need, you know, from the government, federal government, an extension of our ability to use the National Guard. That's very, very helpful. We have National Guard next week going out into our nursing homes. They've done a phenomenal job. More flexibility is important. Look, Chuck, they're processing the money now. I think Congress will come up with something. And again, the flexibility for the cities and our towns, our villages, our counties as well as for the state. We have, because of the economy down and the tax revenue down, you know, we're very concerned about our ability, frankly, to fund our schools. So these are basic things that we need that flexibility for.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think it's good policy to let a government go bankrupt if they don't have the funding right now? Or is that something you think the government should plug a hole in until we're through this crisis?
GOV. MIKE DEWINE:
I'm not going to get into that. Look, we, we're focused on getting the job done. We don't intend to go bankrupt in Ohio. We have to balance our budget every single year. And we just made $760 million worth of cuts. And we did what we have to do and it's the same way with local government in Ohio. They're going to do what they have to do.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, Governor DeWine, Republican from Ohio. Thank you for coming on and sharing your views. And I hope you have a safe Memorial Day weekend.
GOV. MIKE DEWINE:
Thanks, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
You got it. When we come back, China, the coronavirus and the crack down on Hong Kong. I'll talk to the president's national security advisor, Robert O'Brien next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. A new round of demonstrations broke out in Hong Kong earlier today. The crowds are protesting the Chinese government's announcement of new security laws that would sharply curtail freedom in the territory and bring Hong Kong even further under Beijing's control. Many fear the move will end what has been known as “one country, two systems” form of government that has existed since the United Kingdom surrendered control of Hong Kong back in 1997. So joining me now is the president's National Security Adviser, Ambassador Robert O'Brien. Ambassador O'Brien, welcome back to Meet the Press, sir.
ROBERT O'BRIEN:
Thanks, Chuck. Great to be with you as always.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me start with the Hong Kong issue. What is the United States government prepared to do if Beijing goes through with basically this crackdown on Hong Kong and moves Hong Kong away from an open marketplace and an open democracy?
ROBERT O'BRIEN:
Well, as you know, Chuck, the Communist Party of China promised Great Britain back in 1984 with the sign of British declaration that Hong Kong would have a degree of autonomy and would maintain their way of life through 2047. So now 27 years before that deadline, it looks like with this national security law, they're going to basically take over Hong Kong. And if they do under the 1992 Hong Kong Policy Act and the Hong Kong Human Rights and Democracy Act of 2019, Secretary Pompeo would likely be unable to certify that Hong Kong maintains a high degree of autonomy. And if that happens, there will be sanctions that will be imposed on Hong Kong and China. It's hard to see how Hong Kong could remain the Asian financial center that it's become if China takes over.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you want that to be the response? If China does this, do you hope that the financial services community, that global corporations pull out of Hong Kong immediately?
ROBERT O'BRIEN:
I just don't see how they can stay. One reason that they came to Hong Kong is because there was the rule of law there, there was a free enterprise system, there was a capitalist system. There was democracy and local legislative elections. If all those things go away, I'm not sure how the financial community can stay there. And I think you're also going to have a terrible brain train. I think Hong Kong citizens, many of whom can travel under certain circumstances, can travel to the United Kingdom or seek refuge other places, they're not going to stay in Hong Kong to be dominated by the People's Republic of China and the Communist Party. So, I think if China goes through and imposes this law, which I think it’d be a big mistake, I think it's going to be very difficult for the people of Hong Kong.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you really think China is going to be nervous about sanctions and that's going to stop them at this point? It seems as if he's so nervous about the demonstrations. Is a threat of sanctions enough to get China to pull back?
ROBERT O'BRIEN:
Well, I think what we can all be proud of are the people of Hong Kong who have taken to the streets to show all of us who enjoy democracy and the rule of law in our countries how precious that is. And they're out in the streets this weekend demonstrating that they want be free people, that they want to elect their own leaders and have the right to worship as they see fit and earn a living the way they see fit. So look, China's dependent on capital from the rest of the world to build their economy and grow their middle class. They're dependent on liquidity and financial markets. If they lose access to that through Hong Kong, that's a real blow to Xi Jinping and the Chinese Communist Party. So I hope they'll take that into account as they contemplate their next step.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, over the last six months when these demonstrations began, the president was in negotiations on a big trade agreement with Xi and China. And during that time, he himself never really got tough, never really stood up and supported the demonstrators. Others in the administration did. But he was careful and a lot of reporting said he didn't want to upset the trade deal. Did that turn out to be a mistake?
ROBERT O'BRIEN:
No, I don't think it was a mistake. We want good relations with China and with the Chinese people, but unfortunately we're seeing just action after action by the Chinese communist party that makes it difficult. And with respect to the trade deal, we'll see if they live up to it. But we're dealing in a new world now with corona. They unleashed a virus on the world that's destroyed trillions of dollars in American economic wealth that we're having to spend to keep our economy alive, to keep Americans afloat during this virus. So we're in a, we’re in a very different world. The cover-up that they did of the virus is going to go down in history, along with Chernobyl. We'll see an HBO special about it ten or 15 years from now. And so we're in a different place with China as we speak today, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
I understand that. But it's interesting you bring that up because I want to put together -- you know, for the first three months of this year when this virus first, first poked its head up, the president was pretty soft when it came to pinning the blame on China. Take a listen, ambassador.
[BEGIN TAPE]
JOE KERNEN:
Do you trust that we're going to know everything we need to know from China?
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I do. I do. I have a great relationship with President Xi. President Xi loves the people of China. He loves his country. And he's doing a very good job with a very, very tough situation. Our relationship with China is very good. Maybe it's closer because of what's happened here. It came out of China. And it's one of those things that happened. Nobody's fault.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Now, that last quote was from March 14th. And the president's rhetoric has changed since then. There's no doubt. But are you concerned that that sort of soft relationship with Xi, publicly praising him all the time, gave Xi comfort that he could do these things in Hong Kong without a lot of other than rhetorical retribution?
ROBERT O'BRIEN:
No, I don't think so. And I think the thing we have to focus on with the virus and what the president did is for the first time in the Oval Office briefing on the 28th of January when I raised with the president that this was a significant national security threat, he immediately, against the advice of many of his other advisers, he immediately imposed a travel ban on China on the 30th, two days later. It was a profile in courage. And it was something that he was criticized for by his political opponents and by many in the media. That saved countless lives. I think that's the thing that we have to focus on with China. Now we were hoping that China would allow CDC doctors into China. We were hoping that China would give us more information on the virus and give us some of the genetic information we needed. Unfortunately, China did none of that. And so, look, we're in a very different place with China right now, and the president's made that clear. But, you know, the Chinese didn't do what they said. We've also learned that at the time, that they cracked down internally and refused to allow people from Hubei and Wuhan to travel throughout China, they allowed those folks to travel to Europe. And a large part of the infection that came to America didn't come from China, it was when we closed off China and I asked my fellow NSAs in European countries to cut off travel, they didn't. And the virus spread to Europe and then back to the U.S. China should have cut off all the travel out of Hubei and Wuhan like they did internally in China. So we've learned a lot of things. And it's disconcerting. But we'll move forward. We'll defeat this thing going forward and America will come out stronger.
CHUCK TODD:
Can, should the public be reassured or concerned about this relationship with China when it comes to the vaccine? So for instance, if China has a vaccine first and our relations are as heated as they appear to be right now, is it possible we don’t see, the world doesn't see that vaccine, we don't see that vaccine? Or would you trust a vaccine out of China?
ROBERT O'BRIEN:
Well, we're going to get to the vaccine first. We're doing tremendous work on therapies and vaccines. And once we get them, we'll share them not only with America but we'll share them with the world. One of the things it won't do though is it won't bring back the 90 plus thousand Americans, grandparents, parents, frontline healthcare workers, first responders who have died as a result of this virus. And we mourn with their families. Our heart goes out to them. The president mourns with them and grieves with them. And we're thinking of them. So we'll get this virus under control. We'll have vaccines. We'll have therapeutics. We're moving rapidly using American innovation. We're going to stop the Chinese from hacking into our universities to steal that information. And we're going to get the vaccine and we're going to get it out to the whole world. And I think America is going to come out on top on this one, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Very quickly on the mask debate, it seems that the president is the one debating. I know one of your deputies is a big proponent of wearing a mask. Are you concerned that an example isn't being set by the president?
ROBERT O’BRIEN:
Chuck, Chuck, this is my mask that I wear at the office every day. I'm not wearing it here because the cameraman's six feet away from me and you're in the studio. So we're safe. I'll put it on when we leave. But we wear the mask in the White House. And the president’s wore mask where necessary. He did so at the Ford plant. But when the president's out speaking to the American people or when he's speaking and if we meet with him in the Oval Office, our seats are always moved six feet or so away from the Resolute Desk. Then there are times when you don't need to wear the mask. But I think Governor DeWine was spot on when he talked about office workers wearing the mask. And mask usage is going to help us get this economy reopened. And we do need to get the country reopened because we can't get left behind by China or others with respect to our economy. But look I'm a proponent of masks. Matt Pottinger, who you referenced before, is a proponent of mask. And many, many people in the White House are wearing them and the West Wing are wearing them. And we hope that's an example for other folks that when they go back to work that they'll wear masks at their offices as well.
CHUCK TODD:
Ambassador O'Brien, I appreciate you coming on, sharing the administration's views. And I hope you have a safe Memorial Day Weekend.
ROBERT O'BRIEN:
You too, my friend. Thank you, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
You got it. When we come back, 50 states are reopened. Only one has met the government's gating criteria. Are we doing this right? Panel is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back, the panel is with us from remote locations. NBC News chief foreign affairs correspondent Andrea Mitchell, former Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson, and O. Kay Henderson, News Director of Radio Iowa. And Kay, I'm going to start with you because believe it or not, of the four of us, and I include myself, I believe you are the only one residing in a place without many restrictions, versus we're still living a lockdown life in D.C. and New York while the rest of the country opens up. Iowa's open. Does it look open, Kay?
O. KAY HENDERSON:
It depends where you go. There are still restrictions on restaurants, which were able to open in phases. First phase was in the 77 Iowa counties where virus activity was deemed “not substantial,” at the beginning of the month. And then in the middle of the month hair cutting businesses opened. And at the end of this month, last Friday, the governor said that if you run a museum, a movie theater you can open those facilities up. The one thing that is still not open in Iowa, bars, she said she'll make that decision next week. The other significant thing that's happened this week in Iowa is that on Thursday, Governor Kim Reynolds said that if you want a test, you can get a test. Previously to that, the standards for being tested for COVID-19, the diagnostic test, were you either had to have symptoms, you had to have someone in your household who was diagnosed with COVID or you were an essential worker. It's unclear how soon everybody who wants a test can get a test because the state is still trying to ramp up to 5,000 tests a day. And as some of your viewers may know, Iowa is one of three states that signed a $26 million deal with a group of businesses in Utah to provide half a million test kits.
CHUCK TODD:
Andrea Mitchell, one of the things that I think is already a theme from just this show this morning is how very gently -- whether it's Republican Governor Mike DeWine, the national security advisor -- they want to make the point that “let's not politicize the mask debate.”
ANDREA MITCHELL:
But the president has politicized the mask debate. The president is the one who is fighting his own medical guidelines from the CDC and others, sidelining the medical advisors. We haven't seen very much of them, with the one exception of Dr. Birx the other night, briefly, and she was in a very ambiguous situation at that last briefing. So the president is fighting his own government. And his rebellion tweets, I mean he's the one who has made this red state/blue state. And it is really horrifying in a pandemic to be making it a political issue. It should be a medical issue, a health issue, not a political issue.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah. And Jeh Johnson, I mean when the governor of North Dakota was in tears over this, I sort of got it. It was very moving because you're just like, "My gosh, we're politicizing everything right now."
JEH JOHNSON:
Chuck, you're correct. It's disheartening to watch the president, whether it's the issue of the mask or things he says in his daily briefings, it is sending the message explicitly or implicitly that he doesn't believe his scientists. He doesn't always believe Dr. Fauci. And that we need to get back to business. We need to reopen our economy. The president's the most visible person in America. He sets the example. He sets the standards. And a lot of people, particularly in his base, look to him for guidance on this. And so he has the power to influence the debate.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Kay, I'm curious in Iowa, because if you watch this debate on social media and you watch this debate on cable news, it looks like the country's divided 50/50 on this. The polling indicates there's not that divide. And frankly, the results of people moving around the country shows that there's a lot more caution out there than maybe we're portraying politically. Is that what you see in Iowa?
O. KAY HENDERSON:
Well, one of the interesting things is at the beginning of this month, the governor encouraged churches to resume worship. And you're just now seeing the state’s Catholic bishops tell their parishioners that we're going to sort of phase this in and this is how it's going to look and we're going to practice social distancing. The vice president visited Iowa in the middle of the month to talk with a group of faith leaders about how to safely resume worship in person. The other thing that has happened here in Iowa is that the executive branch has a Republican in control in Kim Reynolds and the legislative branch in Iowa is also controlled by Republicans. So there hasn't been that sort of conflict that you see in some other states. The other thing is that we had a group of conservative lawmakers in late April who said, "It's time to reopen the state." And they made an argument that churches should be able to resume worshiping in person. So those debates really haven't raged here among Republicans.
CHUCK TODD:
Jeh Johnson, I know you wanted to chime in.
JEH JOHNSON:
Yeah. Chuck, as you probably know, the governor of New Jersey has asked me to think about this issue for our state here and for the region. Clearly there's no one-size-fits-all solution to when to reopen. And we have to reopen in stages. So it's not a surprise that a majority, almost all the states, are now beginning the process of reopening. But you've got to do it carefully, you've got to do it in phases, and testing and contact tracing are critical to this effort.
CHUCK TODD:
Hey, Andrea Mitchell, very quickly on the issue of Hong Kong. And I'm curious if you heard what I heard from Ambassador O'Brien in that, look, if they go through with this we're going to probably organize, we're going to sanction them, we're going to do some things. But there's some things we won't do. And is China going to get the message that they're probably going to get away with this?
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Probably because they see this as a national security issue. But that signal to investors that investors should leave if they go through with these two laws, that's a really, very important signal. I was there for the handover. And I was there in '97 and watched all of that as we covered it. And this, to watch Martin Lee, their lead democracy advocate, being arrested earlier this month -- this is really serious. I don't think that Xi is going to back down.
CHUCK TODD:
It looks like Hong Kong may never, ever be the same from what it once was. Anyway, I'm going to pause the conversation here. When we come back, some very familiar names that have already declared bankruptcy because of this virus. And as we go to break, as we do every Memorial Day weekend here at Meet the Press, we want to remember the American service members who've died in the line of duty protecting this country since last Memorial Day, including two who died of the coronavirus.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Data Download time. Just this weekend Hertz, a car rental giant for over 90 years announced it filed for Chapter 11. And it's far from alone. In just the first few weeks of this month we saw household brand names like Gold's Gym, J. Crew, Neiman Marcus and J.C. Penney all file for some form of bankruptcy. Companies that employed thousands across this country, most with hundreds of locations from coast to coast. Now many of these companies will ultimately survive in some form. But even before this month there were signs of trouble for pretty much every brick and mortar retailer in the world. From January to March we saw these familiar names file for bankruptcy. Companies that also employed thousands of people and have lots of locations around the country. In other words, even before the COVID-19 pandemic hit, 2020 was shaping up as actually another tough year for anything brick and mortar related, particularly retailers. 2018 and 2019 saw more than 15,000 retail stores shutter. And that was in a booming economy, folks. So the biggest economic impact so far from COVID-19 may be simply that it is pushing the economy into the future, farther and faster than before. And that means it's striking hard at businesses that already were suffering under these underlying tech-driven conditions. When we come back, we'll turn to politics and why a lot of Democrats think Joe Biden might do well to stay in that basement.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. The presidential campaign poked its head up this week and suddenly almost rivalry -- rivaling at least for an hour or two the headlines on the virus. And it was all thanks to this exchange that Joe Biden had with The Breakfast Club. Take a listen.
[BEGIN TAPE]
CHARLAMAGNE THA GOD:
It's a long way until November. We've got more questions.
FORMER VICE PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN:
You've got more questions. Well, I’ll tell -- if you have a problem figuring out whether you're for me or Trump then you ain’t black.
CHARLAMAGNE THA GOD:
It doesn't have anything to do with Trump. It has to do with the fact I want something for my community. I would love to see --
FORMER VICE PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN:
Take a look at my record, man. I extended the Voting Rights Act 25 years. I have a record that is second to none.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Well, the comment of “you ain’t black” went viral in the wrong kind of way for Joe Biden. And before the end of the day he was out with an apology of sorts. Take a listen to how he walked back those comments, Jeh Johnson.
[BEGIN TAPE]
JOE BIDEN:
I shouldn't have been such a wise guy. I shouldn't have been so cavalier in responding to what I thought was a -- anyway, It was -- I don't take it for granted at all. And no one should have to vote for any party based on their race, their religion, their background.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Jeh Johnson, I don't know if this is one of those I guess you view, some might view through the prism of just being generationally out of touch, the sound of a 20th century politician. What did you hear, Jeh?
JEH JOHNSON:
Well, to his credit, Joe Biden recognized within minutes that he had gotten carried away. And I've watched politicians stumble with this for years now. Chuck, ten years ago this month, when I was general council of DOD, I got summoned to the secretary of defense's office, Bob Gates. And he had a proud look on his face. He had been invited to give the commencement address at Morehouse College, the only all-male HBCU in the country, where I went to school. I said, "Boss, the bar for good rhetoric at Morehouse is hot. This is where MLK learned how to preach." And he basically said, "Don't worry. I've got this." And to his credit, he gave basically the exact same address he would have given at Duke or William and Mary. And the students there recognized the authenticity and appreciated that rather than talk to them as 300 black men, Bob Gates spoke to them as 300 intelligent Americans. And the feedback I got from that was enormous. It was a good event.
CHUCK TODD:
And so the lesson for Joe Biden on that is what? Don't try to talk a culture you don't belong to?
JEH JOHNSON:
Be yourself. Just simply be yourself. Whether you're Joe Biden, whether you're Bill Clinton, whether you're Barack Obama or Jeh Johnson, just be yourself. And most people will appreciate that. Most people will appreciate that you have the confidence in yourself and your listening audience to hear what you have to say about being yourself.
CHUCK TODD:
Andrea Mitchell, I want to put up on screen the Trump campaign is already spending $1 million in digital ads, trying to take advantage of this. They're selling t-shirts with a hashtag on it. I don't know whether that is showing a Trump campaign that is nimble or a Trump campaign that is searching for anything to chip away at Joe Biden.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
They're searching for anything negative. And they are nimble. And far more nimble than Biden. The Biden campaign was taking credit for having responded around 3:30 Friday afternoon. But that interview, it was taped the night before. They really wasted way too much time. And the African American Biden supporters whom I had on my program at noon just lashed out about it, that no white person, no white politician should tell any black person what it is to be black. The fact though is that the Biden people I think correctly point out that Donald Trump's record on race relations is, is so awful compared to Joe Biden's. But Joe Biden shouldn't be reaching back to the crime bill where he is vulnerable or the voting rights act.
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
He should be talking now to African Americans. And particularly to millennial black people about what he can do for them now. And talk about his record on the pandemic when African Americans are among the most vulnerable on the frontline.
CHUCK TODD:
Kay Henderson, there's a debate about whether Biden needs to get out and campaign or is he better off staying in the basement? What do Iowa Democrats want?
O. KAY HENDERSON:
Well, Iowa Democrats are right now focused on a primary election that's happening on June 3rd. They are referring to it, even Republicans, as vote at home absentee. Iowa's secretary of state, who's a Republican, sent out absentee request forms. 475,000 people have asked for them. It will set an all-time record for turnout. Democrats looked to Iowa’s most populist county where there's been an eight-fold increase in absentee activity. In regards to Iowa being a swing state in the fall, we don't yet know what the margin will be. Just remember that Hillary Clinton lost the state by 9.5%. Trump won it --
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
O. KAY HENDERSON:
-- by 51%. In 2018, Kim Reynolds won the state by 50%.
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
O. KAY HENDERSON:
But she only won by a 3% margin.
CHUCK TODD:
Right. No, we'll see if it is truly a swing state or not. You're right, we'll find out in the fall. Jeh Johnson, Memorial Day takes on special meaning for folks who have family members who served or have served. I know you have someone who's serving.
JEH JOHNSON:
Yes, thanks, Chuck. Memorial Day Weekend, we also acknowledge those who are serving today. I'd like to give a shout out to all those in uniform of our nation today, including my son in his unit deployed overseas. Son, your mother and I look forward to you coming home soon. Thanks, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
We look forward to you having that reunion. That's all we have for today. Thanks for watching. Thanks for trusting us. We'll be back next week. Because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.