CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday: a crisis of confidence. Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas faces growing scrutiny for failing to disclose payments and gifts from a top Republican donor.
SEN. DICK DURBIN:
The reputation of the court is at stake.
CHUCK TODD:
And a new report reveals Thomas' wife received secret payments from an activist with business before the court.
SEN. THOM TILLIS:
I do think that there’s work that the Supreme Court should do to address those perception problems.
CHUCK TODD:
With public confidence in the Court at a record low, what can be done to restore Americans’ trust in the judicial branch? Plus, default danger. As the deadline nears for the government to pay its bills, President Biden faces off with House Republicans who want to negotiate spending cuts.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
We’re not a deadbeat nation. We pay our bills.
CHUCK TODD:
Does President Biden have a plan to get Republicans to work with him?
SPEAKER KEVIN MCCARTHY:
We’re the only ones to lift the debt limit to make sure this economy is not in jeopardy.
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:President Biden has produced a budget. House Republicans produced a ransom note.
CHUCK TODD:
I'll talk to House Democratic Leader Hakeem Jeffries. And guilty as charged. Four members of the far-right Proud Boys were found guilty of the high crime of seditious conspiracy. It’s the third time the Justice Department has secured convictions for the January 6th attack.
ATTORNEY GENERAL MERRICK GARLAND:
Our work will continue.
CHUCK TODD:
What do these convictions mean for a potential prosecution of Donald Trump for his role in trying to overturn the 2020 election? I'll talk to former Arkansas Governor Asa Hutchinson, who is challenging Trump for the Republican nomination. Joining me for insight and analysis are NBC News Senior Capitol Hill Correspondent Garrett Haake, María Teresa Kumar, president of Voto Latino, Mark Leibovich of The Atlantic and Republican strategist Sara Fagen. Welcome to Sunday, it's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning. Before we get to politics, it’s another shooting. At least eight people are dead, including children, after a gunman opened fire at a suburban outlet mall in Allen, Texas, not far from Dallas, before the gunman was shot and killed by a police officer who happened to be there. This is the second-deadliest mass shooting this calendar year. When we came on the air last week, by the way, we were following the manhunt for another Texas gunman, who had fatally shot five people after he was asked by a neighbor to simply stop firing his gun in his yard. This week, six people were killed in Henryetta, Oklahoma. In Atlanta, a gunman opened fire in a waiting room at a medical office building, killing one and injuring four others. And yet despite the uptick in mass shootings this year, there's been no change in the political response to this growing gun violence crisis. It’s yet another example of our broken political situation, where polarization has made governing and action – and any action impossible. The bases of both parties punish anybody that seeks any sort of common ground. We're seeing it and the response to the judicial branch, where there is clearly a growing cancer on the Supreme Court. A body that used to pride itself on judicial independence is now perceived as just another partisan branch of government in a polarized nation. In the eyes of the American public, the justices’ robes are not black anymore; they're red and blue. Last year, just one in four Americans said they had a great deal of confidence or quite a bit of confidence in the Supreme Court, according to Gallup, the lowest rating in 50 years. And that was after the leak of the draft Dobbsopinion on abortion and before what we're dealing with right now, which is a slew of ethics issues involving the justices. What started out as a story about Justice Clarence Thomas accepting luxury vacations from a billionaire donor has become a flood of headlines questioning the Court’s overall ethics and Thomas himself, with a private school tuition for Thomas's great-nephew being paid for, paying for Thomas's mother's home, paying for hundreds of thousands of dollars to a nonprofit that then paid a six-figure salary to Thomas's wife, Ginni. And there was another report this week of a conservative activist paying Ginni Thomas under the table while he had business before the Court. Thomas has not respond – responded to any of the most recent charges, and after the first story came out about the vacations, he issued a statement simply saying he didn't believe the trips with “close personal friends” were reportable. Now Democrats are demanding a formal ethics code for the Supreme Court, which right now has no binding code of ethical conduct, like the one that actually governs every other federal judge in America. But most Republicans right now, afraid of angering the base or looking like you're giving the left anything, are rallying around Thomas using what-about-ism and rejecting any tightening of ethics rules.
[START TAPE]
SEN. JOHN CORNYN:
He's obviously been targeted because he is a conservative Black man, and, and he's on the Supreme Court in an effort to undercut the legitimacy of the court.
SEN. THOM TILLIS:
Many people, some in the media, many in Congress, want to make this about Justice Thomas, but you can't make this issue about Justice Thomas unless you want to make it about any number of other justices who had very similar situations that they're dealing with.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Now the same broken, partisan politics that are eroding the Supreme Court's reputation are making it impossible for members of Congress to move forward and make deals and legislate. Whether it's on addressing mass shootings, on immigration – Title 42 is set to expire – or on the debt limit with the risk of default coming as soon as the end of this month. So as leaders from both parties prepare to meet at the White House on Tuesday, President Biden, who claims he's not negotiating right now on the debt ceiling, is clearly preparing to negotiate on the debt ceiling. But he clearly hopes that he can drive a wedge between Republicans as he does it.
[START TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
There’s a Republican Party and there’s the MAGA Republicans. And the MAGA Republicans really have put him in a position where, in order to stay speaker, he has to agree – he’s agreed to things that maybe he believes but are just extreme.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is the House Democratic Leader, Hakeem Jeffries of New York. Congressman Jeffries, welcome back to Meet the Press.
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
Good morning. Great to be on.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, let's start with this meeting you're going to have with the group of four congressional leaders and the president. It'll include Speaker McCarthy, Senator Majority Leader Schumer, and the Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell and yourself. I guess we should call these talks, not negotiations? Is anything on the table, or is this a negotiation?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
Well, it's a very important discussion. I'm thankful that President Biden has called us together. We need to do two things: One, we have to make sure that America pays its bills to avoid a dangerous default on our debt, in a manner that will blow up the United States economy, likely trigger a job-killing recession, cost us millions of good-paying jobs, crash the stock market, which of course will adversely impact the retirement security of millions of Americans. And it will dramatically raise costs for almost everyone. That has to be avoided. And the one way to do that is to make sure that we raise the debt ceiling, in a manner consistent with what has been done more than 100 times under Democratic presidents and Republican presidents. At the same time, Chuck, President Biden has continued to make clear that we can have a discussion about the right balance of spending, investments, and revenues to make life better for everyday Americans, to impact in a favorable way the health, the safety, and the economic well-being of the American people.
CHUCK TODD:
So, do you accept the premise that you're not going to get a clean debt ceiling hike?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
I do not, because we have a constitutional responsibility to make sure that we protect the full faith and credit of the United States of America. Everyday Americans understand this principle: If you have a bill, you need to pay it. If you fail to pay it, it's going to adversely impact your credit rating. Your credit score will drop. If your credit score drops, your costs are going to go up. And if America defaults on our bills, that's exactly what is going to happen, and everyone is going to pay the price. And so I accept the premise that the only responsible thing to do is to do what Democrats did in the previous administration, where we helped President Trump raise the debt ceiling and avoid a default three different times. Notwithstanding the fact that in our 247-year history, 25% of America's debt was acquired during the Trump administration. And yet, we avoided the default without gamesmanship, without showmanship, without partisanship. That's what the extreme MAGA Republicans should do this time around.
CHUCK TODD:
I understand what you want them to do. But as you know, the Republicans don't accept that premise. You have almost every Senate Republican - 43 of them - saying that they're not going to raise the debt ceiling without some sort of quid pro quo on cuts, or something like that. You've got independent groups, including the Chamber of Commerce, including the Committee for Responsible Federal Budget, which is normally a pretty nonpartisan group. They have said, "Hey, look, Republicans have done their job. You may not like the bill the House passed, but they did do something.” Shouldn't Democrats respond with a counter-proposal?"
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
Well, President Biden has consistently made clear, and in fact, he introduced his budget two months ago. And it is a budget that will invest and protect in social security. It's going to try to strengthen the economy in a way that builds an economy that works for everyday Americans, an economy from the middle out and the ground up, not the top down. And President Biden's budget will also cut the deficit by $3 trillion. We've been waiting for months for the Republicans to articulate their position. They didn't produce a budget. What they did was produce a ransom note. That is what the Default on America Act is. And effectively, what they're saying to the American people is that either you accept these dramatic cuts - cuts to Medicaid spending for disabled children and for elderly Americans, cuts to law enforcement, cuts to education, cuts to health care, cuts to nutrition assistance for food-insecure Americans more than 30 million people throughout the country - either Republicans want us to accept these dramatic cuts, or accept a catastrophic default on our nation's debt. That is what is the unreasonable position. And hopefully, in a few days, Republicans will come to their senses and do what's right by the American people.
CHUCK TODD:
Is the obvious solution here a short-term punt, and it looks like this: You essentially raise the debt ceiling through September 30th and make the debt ceiling and the budget deadlines converge? Doesn't that give everybody what they want? You didn't negotiate cuts directly for the raising of the debt ceiling, and you do - the Republicans get their budget negotiations with the budget. Isn't that the uncomfortable compromise that is the best way forward here?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
Well, I don't think the responsible thing to do is to kick the can down the road when President Biden has been saying for months, the position of Leader Schumer, the position of House Democrats has been, we have to avoid a default. America should pay its bills, protect the full faith and credit of the United States of America. But we of course are open to having a discussion about what type of investments, what type of spending, what type of revenues are appropriate in order to protect the health, the safety, and the economic well-being of the American people. That's a process that is available to us right now. I don't think we need to delay those discussions for a few months.
CHUCK TODD:
I understand that. But are you ruling it out? I mean, if that's the way out of this? No one's saying, - look, there are better ways out of a lot of problems. The question is, if it avoids default, is this the way out?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
Well, we have to avoid default, period, full stop. I think what's in front of us right now is that President Biden has convened a very important discussion on Tuesday, so we can find a way forward to do what is necessary to continue to strengthen our economy in a manner that benefits everyday Americans.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask it this way: Are you following President Biden's lead here, that if President Biden and Speaker McCarthy come up with some sort of handshake in some form here, are congressional Democrats going to support the president's position?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
Well, we're in lockstep right now in terms of the path forward that President Biden laid out. Ultimately, everyone evaluates on the merits, on any particular piece of legislation, that is presented to us. But we are in lockstep with President Biden. We're in lockstep with Senate Democrats. We want to do the right thing for the American people. That means paying our bills, and simultaneously having this discussion about the future and what spending can look like, anchored in President Biden's budget proposal.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to ask you a couple other questions on some things that have happened this week. The Title 42 is going to end this week. Do you believe the administration is prepared for what's coming to the border?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
I do believe the administration is prepared. I know Secretary Mayorkas was there at the border this week. Steps are being taken to make sure that there is order at the border. But that it should be done in a way that is consistent with two principles: One, the rule of law, but two, our history as a compassionate nation as a nation of immigrants. And I think that the administration is preparing in an all-hands-on-deck way to make sure that when we move beyond this Title 42 moment, that we're in position to absorb what takes place. At the same time, we need to begin to have a real bipartisan discussion on comprehensive immigration reform. And I hope that my Republican colleagues will come to the table to have those discussions.
CHUCK TODD:
I know you have confidence in the plan. A lot of border Democrats do not. Mark Kelly, "I don't have a high level of confidence." Ruben Gallego, "I have heard repeated concerns about a lack of information." Kyrsten Sinema, who I know is not a Democrat anymore but caucuses with them, "Despite our repeated calls, the administration failed to prepare a working plan for the end of Title 42." Let me ask you this: In the next couple of weeks if this doesn't look like it's working, would you be in favor of reinstated Title 42 powers? There's a bill in the Senate that might do that. Is that something that, if this doesn't work, you'd be open to?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
No, I think that's a premature discussion. I think we have to deal with the situation that is in front of us right now and support the administration efforts to make sure that there are resources at the border to deal with a post-Title 42 environment and to do it in a way, as I mentioned, consistent with both the rule of law, we want order at the border, at the same time do it in a compassionate way and in a way that is consistent with who we are, our values as a nation.
CHUCK TODD:
And one final straight-up political question. There's a new Washington Post/ABC poll out this morning. And it has a startling divide on the economy between former President Trump and current President Biden. You just made a robust case that President Biden has been a good steward for the economy. The country here, in this poll, a majority believe former President Trump did a better job of handling the economy at 54% than President Biden does right now at 36%. Why do you think the public perception of the president's handling of the economy is so poor compared to the numbers you were citing?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
Well, that's one poll. And I've seen other public opinion surveys that have indicated that there's a closer approximation between the actual reality of the incredible job that President Biden has done with respect to the economy. Record low unemployment, more than 12 million good-paying jobs have been created. He reduced the deficit by $1.7 trillion during President Biden's first two years. That's a record for a similar period of time in American history for any president. But of course President Biden recognizes that more needs to be done to continue to build out an economy that benefits everyday Americans coming out of COVID and in an inflationary environment. I think when it's all said and done and President Biden is on the campaign trail, able to make his case against the extreme MAGA Republicans who are extreme on reproductive freedom, extreme on democracy, extreme on social security and Medicare, extreme in their unwillingness to deal with the gun violence epidemic and crisis, extreme on pretty much every issue out there, I believe that the American people will see fit to reelect President Biden and re-elect him comfortably.
CHUCK TODD:
House Democratic Leader Hakeem Jeffries from Brooklyn, New York. Appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us, sir. Good to see you.
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
Thank you, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, he called for Donald Trump to drop out of the race. But how will he appeal to Trump's loyal base of supporters? Former Arkansas governor and newly minted Republican presidential candidate Asa Hutchinson joins me next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. He's been called the 2024 candidate Democrats should fear and the ideal candidate for a GOP that no longer exists. Asa Hutchinson is a former U.S. attorney, the Arkansas Republican Party chair, a three-term member of Congress. He served as the House impeachment manager during Bill Clinton's impeachment. President George W. Bush appointed him director of the DEA, and later, an undersecretary in the Department of Homeland Security. He left office in January after two terms as governor of Arkansas. And last week, Hutchinson, who has stood out in the Republican field for his willingness to publicly take on Donald Trump, formally announced his presidential campaign.
[BEGIN TAPE]
FMR. GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:
We have learned that in times of turmoil, uncertainty and division, America has always benefited from leaders who challenge us and give us hope. I am running for the president of the United States because I know that the best of America is ahead of us.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
And the former governor of Arkansas and Republican presidential candidate Asa Hutchinson joins me now. Governor Hutchinson, welcome back to Meet the Press.
FMR. GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:
Thank you, Chuck. It's always good to be with you.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, I always -- I think the single most important speech any candidate for president gives is that announcement speech. I always feel like it's the, it’s the speech that truly comes from the candidate -- that it hasn't had a lot of consultants in it and speech writers. Over time, that happens, I get that. But that first one, it's what -- and what I, what I found from it is it feels like you were running to lead a party from ten years ago. And you probably know what I mean by that. Do you really think you have a message for a post-Trump era in an era where Donald Trump still exists?
FMR. GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:
No, I think the message that I presented is about the future. Whenever you look at the rule of law, which I talked about, the challenge of crime in our cities, the challenge of border security, that's where we simply need to enforce the law, and that is the background that I bring to this campaign. And whenever you look at reducing the size of the federal government and controlling spending, I presented the idea, the plan to reduce state, federal civilian employment by 10%. I can do that because we reduced it by 14% in Arkansas. And so these are specific plans that I present, and I -- it's about the future. It's about the strength of America. It's about our leadership. So no, it's not about the past. It's about the future. And I think that resonates.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, it does seem as if, though, that having the right positions that maybe the Republican Party supports and uphold doesn't seem to translate to votes. I look at your positions, and in theory it makes a ton of sense to me that you should be able to unite this party around what you're selling. But as you know, they're looking for something else – Donald Trump, whatever it is, it's a fighter. "He says what I think." You've heard all the different words. How do you appeal to that voter, that voter that actually likes the pugilism?
FMR. GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:
That's true. And you've got to convince the voters that you're going to fight for them. And whenever you look at my history of fighting against the establishment in Arkansas, but also in Congress and balancing the budget – this is proof of a record of somebody who does fight for them. And whenever you look at growing the economy and the challenge of the high interest rates, high inflation -- economy is the number one issue that will face Americans as we go into 2024. And so you talk about these, and that you're willing to fight for them, that's what they want. But they also want somebody that can win. So it's about policy, but it's about electability. And we do not want to have a repeat of 2020 with a Trump/Biden race. We want something different that we can win. And that's the case that we make.
CHUCK TODD:
Why do you think right now, Republican voters think Donald Trump's the best candidate?
FMR. GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:
Well, really, you look back to the true numbers, which is after the last midterm elections. And his numbers were down. He was responsible for a lot of the failure in growth that we expected and wins in a number of different states. And so his numbers were down. Since then, his numbers have gone up because he's played the victim. People believe he's been picked on because of some prosecutions. I joke in some ways that his campaign manager is Alvin Bragg of New York City. That indictment caused those numbers to go up because they don't believe they're fair. This will settle out over time. And so let's judge it, understanding that we're early in the campaign. We've got a lot of, lot of room to grow.
CHUCK TODD:
It's funny you bring up the legal issues. The seditious conspiracy convictions of the Proud Boys, that was a tall task for Justice to prove that case. They were able to prove it. You have experience dealing in the Justice Department as a former U.S. attorney. Were you surprised they were successful, and do you think this is a dire, a dire outcome for the former president?
FMR. GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:
Well, they are difficult cases to make. It's a high bar. And they were successful in it. And I think it really reflects the seriousness of the offense of January 6th, and undermining our democracy in how seriously the jury considers this -- that found them guilty of that. Whenever you look at the impact on the future, Donald Trump has a moral responsibility for what happened on January 6th. The question is is whether there is a criminal responsibility, and that's a judgment that the Department of Justice is going to have to make. I believe that we're going to have, in America, to go in a different direction. But it's going to be through the ballot box and not what happens in the courtroom. And so that's what I want to focus on --
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
FMR. GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:
-- is persuading Americans that we need to go a different direction.
CHUCK TODD:
Are you committing to support the Republican nominee even if it is Donald Trump?
FMR. GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:
I expect to be on the debate stage. We're still looking at what is required for that in terms of the pledge. But yes, I'm sure that the candidates that are going to be participating in that believe they're going to be the nominee, and so we're going to support the nominee. But I want to be on that debate stage. I think it's important. And we're working very hard to get there. And let's see. I’m -- we're not sure whether Donald Trump's going to be there or not. I hope that he will be. I think it's important. But let's see how that develops.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think if he doesn't show up to the debates, it makes it easier for you not to commit to support the nominee?
FMR. GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:
Well, that reflects the question as to who he will support --
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
FMR. GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:
-- if he's not the nominee. But he'll drop in the polls. And that's why I think he will ultimately be there. It's important for the American public to hear – particularly the Republican voters – to hear what the candidates say about the future, their ideas for it, and to engage in that debate and defend their positions. So that's what the expectation is. And I think everybody has an obligation to participate in that.
CHUCK TODD:
A couple of, of tricky policy issues that are very divisive, or else we'd have resolved them by now. We had a lot more mass shootings again this week. What we saw in Texas at an outlet mall. Let me ask you this. Do -- all of these recent shootings took place in states that have expanded the rights of gun owners. If we want to tackle the mental health issue, how do you do it without regulating the firearm?
FMR. GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:
Well, I mean, first of all, we've had mass shootings that occurred in blue states and states that have significant restrictions on firearms. And so they happen across America. And, Chuck, this is a serious issue for us. It breaks everyone's heart and causes everybody to think, "What can we do to prevent this or to reduce the deaths by violence?" And so, as you said, the mental health is a significant part of it that we need to invest in. And you talked earlier about there's, you know, not any bipartisan consensus. And we did find last year a bipartisan consensus to address some issues after the Uvalde shooting in Texas. And I applaud Senator Cornyn for his leadership on that. So we can. We just have to continue to look at what makes a difference, what fits within our constitutional framework. And right now, there is the consensus on the addressing the mental health crisis we have in America, particularly as it came out of the pandemic.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you this about the current crisis of confidence at the Supreme Court. Back in the late '90s when you were in Congress, you led a bipartisan effort – there was a rebuke, an ethics investigation of then-Speaker Newt Gingrich – and you led a bipartisan effort that, "Hey, this is what was concluded." And it was a bipartisan action. He had to pay a pretty hefty fine. But it was, it was accepted by the public because it was bipartisan. Do we need that here with the Supreme Court? It feels like there isn't an accepting of the premise that the Court has an ethical problem right now.
FMR. GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:
Well, this is an important issue. And whenever you look at the confidence of the Supreme Court, which is critical to operation of our democracy, that confidence level is somewhat down. But if you look back in history, you had, during the Warren Court – they had a controversial decision: Brown v. Board of Education – and for a long time, the Court was under extraordinary criticism. The confidence level was diminished. That has been built back up over time. You've had a controversial decision, and history is repeating itself. You've got, in this case, the Democrats undermining the Court, first of all by wanting to pack it more than nine, which has been our historic number. And then secondly, these allegations against Justice Thomas. The Court needs to be transparent, first of all. They need to be clear on what their reporting rules are. They need to review those to make sure they're very similar to the other public officials and branches of government, which has broad reporting requirements. Clearly, they have not been sufficient. They've changed those.
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
FMR. GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:
But I think they need this step just simply in terms of their transparency so the American people understand what the rules are, and what is required, and is similar to other public officials.
CHUCK TODD:
It sounds like you think Chief Justice Roberts -- you think he needs to come out and publicly state what you just said?
FMR. GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:
Well, sure. I think there needs to be a clear set of rules. And there needs to be openness about it so that everybody knows what the rules are. Those are important. Every public official has to follow those. They can set those. They should set those versus the Congress of the United States, because they are a separate branch of government.
CHUCK TODD:
Right. Governor Asa Hutchinson, the former governor of Arkansas, presidential candidate just announced this week, appreciate you coming on, sharing your perspective. And stay safe on the trail, sir. We'll see you again.
FMR. GOV. ASA HUTCHINSON:
Thank you, Chuck. Good to be with you.
CHUCK TODD:
Before we go to break: On Saturday, millions of people watched the coronation of King Charles III. The first British monarch to be crowned in 70 years. The ceremony raises lots of questions about the future of the royal family, with the public finding its role in modern democracy increasingly insignificant. During a 1969 tour of North America, Prince Philip, the Duke of Edinburgh, the father of King Charles, appeared on Meet the Press to defend the monarchy.
LAWRENCE SPIVAK:
Your Highness, there have been reports which say that the British monarchy gets its strength and popularity because it hasn't changed. And then I've seen some that says it gets its strength and popularity because it has changed and become more modern. What's your opinion on that?
PRINCE PHILIP:
While different things have changed, I think when people say that it has its strength from not changing, I think there is a sense of continuity, the fact that you have roughly the same people around all the time gives the community a sense that whatever changes there are, at least there's something that hasn't changed all the time. And I think this is a great strength, I think, a great advantage.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, the growing ethics allegations against Clarence Thomas and the fight over the debt ceiling. Both battles reveal the deep partisan divides that animate our current political climate. Panel is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Panel is here: María Teresa Kumar, President of Voto Latino; NBC News Senior Capitol Hill Correspondent Garrett Haake; Mark Leibovich, a staff writer at The Atlantic; and Republican strategist, Sara Fagen. I want to start with the Court, and then we'll pivot to debt ceiling. But sort of to set up the conversation, we are going to hear from John Roberts from about 15 years ago, and Clarence Thomas at his confirmation hearing regarding ethics, conflicts of interest and the Supreme Court.
[START TAPE]
CHIEF JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS:
I think the most important thing for the public to understand is that we are not a political branch of government. They don't elect us. If they don't like what we're doing, it's more or less just too bad.
JUDGE CLARENCE THOMAS:
We are, as judges, in the least democratic branch of government. We have lifetime appointments. We make very, very important decisions, and we do not stand for re-election. I may talk about the flaws, but I also point out the importance of the legislative and oversight process. This process is necessary. And it has, to me, become more clearly necessary since I became a judge.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
And Garrett Haake, what was interesting about that response from then-Judge Thomas, it was about acknowledging, "Hey, this process has been kind of – you haven't enjoyed it." And he's basically saying, "No, I haven't. But look, this is what Congress' job is." You could argue he's almost inviting, "Okay, try to write an ethics code."
GARRETT HAAKE:
Yeah. And they can try, but right now, the ethics code that other federal judges follow wasn't one that's written by Congress and it's not clear that Congress could write anything that would actually be enforceable. I mean, what's the mechanism that you would put over the Supreme Court to put an ethics code in place? You played some of my interview with Thom Tillis earlier this week --
CHUCK TODD:
I did.
GARRETT HAAKE:
-- and he was practically begging Justice Roberts to kind of get a hold of this, to get in front of it. But only the Supreme Court could put something in place to increase confidence in the Supreme Court that they're even taking this seriously. That seems to be the only real road here.
CHUCK TODD:
It does. And I guess, I don’t want to – you were in the Bush White House when John Roberts was picked. This is not who he is, but I've got to think, will he meet this moment? He needs to do something.
SARA FAGEN:
Well, I think he probably will get forced to do something. I mean, the partisan nature of what is going on in life today, in politics today, is why we see so much scrutiny on the Court and on these justices. And this – there's been a standard on Thomas since the minute he stepped on the Supreme Court, which is that liberals have wanted to take him out. And he's, in some degrees, made it – the criticism easy. But I don't think they're going to let up. And so, it’s going to force – the Court is going to be forced to do something.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, María Teresa, it is interesting already. I've heard the Republicans say, "Hey, well, they've always come after Thomas." And Republicans have been going after Sonia Sotomayor. It's like, “Okay. All nine justices will end up looking terrible once political operatives are done with them in three months.” How do we put a stop to this?
MARÍA TERESA KUMAR:
Well, I think we have to take a step back and recognize that there are really three issues before us. One, we recognize that I don't think the Founding Fathers actually believed that corruption was part of the courts. And I say this tongue-in-cheek because Clarence Thomas is an originalist and I don't think the Founding Fathers had this in mind. But if we were to take a look at where the money came from and what was it impacting, that's what people need to investigate. Look, I'm a layperson. I'm absolutely not a constitutional lawyer. But if you look at the funding that even his wife, Ginni, received under the table, it was with someone that had business before the Court, in the Voting Rights Act --
SARA FAGEN:
Yeah, but --
MARÍA TERESA KUMAR:
-- that changed the course of history.
SARA FAGEN:
I --
MARÍA TERESA KUMAR:
And so I do think that when you look at his docket, when you look at where he chose not to recuse himself, recognizing that there was business before the Court, that's a broader issue. And then the third part, what are the future cases that he hasn't recused himself from? We now have a Supreme Court case that is under review that basically guts the authority of federal agencies such as the EPA and such as the FDA, and basically concentrates the power on judges. That's an issue for the American people.
CHUCK TODD:
Mark Leibovich, I do think that the other source of blame here for the current corrosive nature of the Supreme Court is the United States Senate. They have essentially destroyed the confirmation process and created an entire judiciary that is red and blue.
MARK LEIBOVICH:
Yes. And that's, you know, in that sense, the idea that it's not a political body, that is not true anymore. I will say though the idea that liberals are going after Clarence Thomas – I mean, as a member of the church of print journalism here, the reporting on this from ProPublica, which is a great investigative journalism organization, is rock solid. This is damning stuff. And, you know, Justice Roberts is right. We have to live with it because they're not, you know, going to stand for elections. But yes, I mean, it's political. But at the same time, you know, this is an issue of right and wrong.
CHUCK TODD:
It is. I do think it falls under this larger issue of an impossible – nobody can concede when their side is ever doing wrong. I'm going to move to the debt ceiling because we did some statistical analysis of the current makeup of Congress, Garrett. Just 27% of Congress was in office in 2011, the last time we had a debt ceiling. Fewer than one in four Republicans, fewer than – a little bit more than one in four Democrats. This tells me that the warnings may be falling on deaf ears.
GARRETT HAAKE:
I think that's absolutely true, based on the conversations I've had on the Hill. And there are a number of people, particularly Republicans, who don't think that either the deadline is real or the consequences will be as severe as they've been suggested to be. I mean, it's hot potato with a live grenade, basically, at this point. And I think what may happen is we may have to get really close to that deadline and see actual consequences before this gets serious. I mean, I talked to some sources on the Democratic side who don't expect much to come out of this meeting with President Biden even this week. That we might need to see the markets start to panic a little bit before people start to understand that this is not a theoretical conversation anymore.
CHUCK TODD:
Sara, as we were talking earlier, there's only a political loss here for either party, right? There's no win anymore, is there?
SARA FAGEN:
It'd be pretty hard to see. There's actually a scenario where the president and the House Republicans win, which is if they came together in a compromise, which seems pretty – pretty hard at this point.
CHUCK TODD:
Right. And both saying, "Boy, you're both great." Yeah. Good luck with it.
SARA FAGEN:
But a funny thing happened on the way to economic catastrophe by Republicans, is that they passed, you know, they passed the spending plan. And it's a pretty good political argument to say, "We're going to raise the debt ceiling, and we're going to hold spending to 2022 levels." That's not exactly austere.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah. It does mean that the president needs to negotiate, don't you think, María Teresa?
MARÍA TERESA KUMAR:
Well, and I think that's one of the reasons, when you look at the Republicans, that said “I voted for something for McCarthy, even though I would not have voted, had it passed.” It speaks to that there's so much in there that is good for Republicans that they want the president actually to come in and be almost their barrier to be able to proceed. And I do think it's going to be temporary fixes, unfortunately.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah, the short-term punt. That's the way Washington works.
MARK LEIBOVICH:
Well, that's the way it looks. I mean, certainly, the September solution. But I also think, look, we can look forward to more kicking the can down the road metaphors for the next few weeks. But, I mean, look, that is – the other issue here is it's a much more reckless Congress, but it's also a much tighter margin. I mean, Speaker McCarthy has four votes to work with. A lot of those votes are in districts that Trump won --
CHUCK TODD:
We're going to crash into guardrails. Let's just hope we don't end up in a ditch. All right, guys. Up next, how the Republican Party is taking the culture war fight to another level. Our new reporting from Tennessee, which arguably has become ground zero for this new fight.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. This week, we are debuting a brand new season of Meet the Press Reports, our sixth, by the way. Each week on Meet the Press Reports, we take a deep dive into a single topic. And this time, we take a look at the GOP's efforts to restrict drag. It is the newest front amid a wave of anti-LGBTQ laws that have passed various Republican state legislatures nationwide over the last few years. Our own Antonia Hylton reports from all across the state of Tennessee, which became the first state in the country to pass an anti-drag law in March. And although the law has now been temporarily blocked by a federal judge, its impacts are already being felt by performers like Story VanNess.
[START TAPE]
ANTONIA HYLTON:
As a transgender woman raised in Tennessee, she spent years hiding who she was. It wasn't until she turned 18 and stepped out onto her first drag show stage, that she realized it didn't have to be that way.
STORY VANNESS:
And I didn't have the words for it. It was one of the few times I felt powerful, I felt seen, I felt right in my skin. I can do anything I need to do when I'm in drag.
STORY VANNESS:
Wait, are all the children out of the building? Are there any children? Look around. If you're a child, raise your hand. Not emotionally, I mean, like, legally.
ANTONIA HYLTON:
For Story and her friend, who performs under the name Harri Scari, it's begun to feel like their very existence is a political act.
HARRI SCARI:
The agenda is to just exist and to not – and to feel valid.
STORY VANNESS:
The agenda is to be able to go to the bathroom without having to worry about being punched in the face.
ANTONIA HYLTON:
State Senate Majority Leader Jack Johnson, a Republican from Franklin, Tennessee, sponsored the new restrictive legislation. The law targets adult-oriented performances that are harmful to minors. It doesn't say exactly how performances will be determined to be harmful or sexual. Have you been to drag shows?
SENATOR JACK JOHNSON:
Have not. But I've seen videos. I've, seen videos of drag. Well, and I, I guess I should say, have I been to places where a man was dressed as a woman and, and performing or singing, and maybe they were dressed – it was a Halloween party and they were dressed up as Dolly Parton? Of course, I have.
ANTONIA HYLTON:
Are you trying to send a signal –
SENATOR JACK JOHNSON:
Of course not.
ANTONIA HYLTON:
– that some types of communities, some types of people, aren't welcome here in Tennessee?
SENATOR JACK JOHNSON:
The only signal I'm trying to send is that you shouldn't be sexually graphic – you shouldn’t be simulating sex acts in front of children.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
You can watch the full episode on this anti-drag movement right now on Peacock or after the broadcast on NBC News NOW. And we're going to have lots more to come this season, so look for a new episode of Meet the Press Reports every Friday night at NBC News NOW, or on demand on Peacock the next day. In fact, next week, we tackle artificial intelligence. When we come back, a rare glimpse at Donald Trump under oath.
[START TAPE]
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP:
She would not be my first choice, that I can tell you.
ROBERTA KAPLAN:
You were referring to her physical looks, correct?
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Just the overall, not – I looked at her. I see her. I hear what she says. Whatever. You wouldn't be a choice of mine either, to be honest with you. I hope you're not insulted. I would not under any circumstances have any interest in you.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Obviously, we were talking about the president's various legal issues. Yet, we have this new poll out this morning, ABC. And Sara Fagen, I'm curious of your thoughts on it because it has Donald Trump – who’s did a better job of handling the economy, Donald Trump 54%, Joe Biden, 36%. There was one fourth of voters who would like to see Trump prosecuted for various crimes, think he should be prosecuted, who were picking Trump over Biden. Does this make it impossible to knock Trump out, out of the nomination?
SARA FAGEN:
Well, I don't think it's impossible to knock him out. I mean, you've got to remember, it's going to be a long process. And, you know, what happens in Iowa, what happens in New Hampshire, South Carolina, that's going to be very consequential. And even if a candidate, you know, is expected to get 10% and gets 15%, it becomes a week of great press for that person. And the dy – dynamic can change. I do think it's going to be difficult to beat Donald Trump, don't get me wrong. But if you-- analyze polling and you ask the questions about four different ways, Trump's hard, hard, hard support is about 14%. It's not 40. You've got a bunch of people who are for him today that are open to other people. And that's the path that these folks have to put together.
CHUCK TODD:
The alarm bell that ought to go off though at the White House is that economic number. I mean, if this election is not about abortion rights, they're in trouble.
MARÍA TERESA KUMAR:
It's going to be the economy. And I actually think it's going to be about the economy and education. I think that a lot of parents right now are seeing that their kids are way far behind. They're saying, "Who's talking to me about education? The Republicans are." And I do think that the economy, as we see it, there might be inflationary pressures that are going to come. I mean, everybody keeps saying, but it looks like this actually might happen. I think one of the challenges for the Biden administration though is to remind the American people who got them out of, out of the pandemic, and the real checks. One of the things that we found at Voto Latino was, when people supported Donald Trump, it was because they believed that he literally gave them the checks that he signed. And I think it's giving you this understanding of the American people that it's much – far more complex, and who actually got us out of an incredible pandemic.
CHUCK TODD:
Garrett, I heard Hakeem Jeffries not make an economic argument.
GARRETT HAAKE:
No.
CHUCK TODD:
I mean, he immediately, "Well, there's abortion rights. There's democracy." Like, it reminded me of the Bush '04 days. Hey, this is going to be a choice, not a referendum.
GARRETT HAAKE:
Well, look at the Biden announcement video. I mean, it was a lot of, like, January 6th and freedom and kind of the same thing that they were trying to run on in 2022, disqualifying Republicans. Biden's going to make that argument against Trump, in part because none of the Republicans are doing it. I mean, they've all hugged him on the January 6th issue. But yeah, I mean, I think the less they can be talking about inflation and the price of eggs or what your mortgage rate's going to be, and the more you can be talking about, "Look what the other guy's up to," I think that's the play for, for Democrats.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Mark Leibovich, I want to play something here from Trump's definition in this defamation trial, because in many ways, it is a throwback to 2016. And I'll explain after it. Take a listen.
[START TAPE]
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I don’t even know who the woman – let’s see. I don't know who – it's Marla.
ROBERTA KAPLAN:
You're saying Marla's in this photo?
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
That's Marla. Yeah. That’s – that’s my wife.
ROBERTA KAPLAN:
Which woman are you pointing to?
ALINA HABBA:
No. That's Carroll.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Here.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Oh, is that –
ROBERTA KAPLAN:
The person you just pointed to is E. Jean Carroll –
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Oh, I see. Who is that? Who is this?
ROBERTA KAPLAN:
Furthers the point. Your wife –
ALINA HABBA:
And the person – the woman on the right is your then-wife, Ivana?
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I don't know. This was the picture. I assume that's John Johnson. Is that –
ALINA HABBA:
That's Carroll.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
– Carroll, because it's very blurry.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Does it matter, right? Access Hollywood tape didn't matter. Does this stuff matter?
MARK LEIBOVICH:
Not among Trump’s – I mean, look, no. I mean, look, history would tell us not really. It doesn't move the needle. His supporters are his supporters. They're not watching this, first of all, and making any new determinations. I was a little bit more surprised that this didn't get more pick up just because it was – I mean, the rest of the video –
CHUCK TODD:
Donald Trump under oath. You don't get to see that very often.
MARK LEIBOVICH:
Right. I mean, you know, this is not a great setup for him. And Bill Clinton can attest to that. But I think, look, history shows that this is not going to be something that takes Trump's supporters away from him.
CHUCK TODD:
Sara Fagen, the Trump folks have been pushing around this commentary that said, "It's 2016 again, it's 2016 again." And they are almost embracing it. "Hey, we're the outsider. We're not the insider." Can they pull that off?
SARA FAGEN:
Well, I don't think they can pull it off. I mean, he's the incumbent party leader. But what I think is going to help him is that, you know, oddly this calendar of trials appears to be sort of shaping up to have some verdict or some ruling every two months, and he gets a sympathy bounce from it. And I had one person from a –
CHUCK TODD:
It's bizarre.
SARA FAGEN:
– from a rival campaign say, "The calendar isn't working to our favor – "
GARRETT HAAKE:
Well –
SARA FAGEN:
– to make the, you know, to –
GARRETT HAAKE:
But the rival –
CHUCK TODD:
Isn't this about the voters?
SARA FAGEN:
The voters, right –
GARRETT HAAKE:
This is what drives me up though because the rival campaigns could choose to go the other way on this. Every other Republican, theoretical primary candidate, or actual primary candidate, has hugged Trump in the face of all these controversies. If an –
SARA FAGEN:
I don't think that's, I don’t think that’s fair.
GARRETT HAAKE:
They could come out and say, "Look, this guy's being credibly accused of rape in this case. He's being charged in Manhattan. Who knows what he's going to be charged with for January 6th?"
MARIA TERESA KUMAR:
That's right.
GARRETT HAAKE:
And instead, they have embraced him so as not to turn his voters off –
SARA FAGEN:
But the base –
MARIA TERESA KUMAR:
But –
SARA FAGEN:
– of the Republican party believes this is all made up –
MARK LEIBOVICH:
Yes, they do.
MARIA TERESA KUMAR:
– every one of these.
MARK LEIBOVICH:
But I also do not subscribe to the idea that this is just a godsend to Donald Trump –
CHUCK TODD:
All right.
MARK LEIBOVICH:
– prosecution verdict.
MARIA TERESA KUMAR:
I actually think that –
CHUCK TODD:
At some point. Yup? Go.
MARIA TERESA KUMAR:
I actually think – the only thing – the reason I don't think it's 2016 is that the majority of American people remember what his presidency was like, and they want a time out.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, we're all going to find out together. That's all we have for today. Thank you for watching. We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.