CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday: Defying history.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Definitely not a Republican wave, that’s for darn sure.
CHUCK TODD:
The Democrats stop a red wave and hold on to control of the Senate
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
America showed that we believe in our democracy.
CHUCK TODD:
While Republicans are still clinging to the hope of winning the House.
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
We will be in the majority, and Nancy Pelosi will be in the minority.
CHUCK TODD:
How will both parties respond to the message voters sent on Election Day? My guests this morning: Republican Senator Bill Cassidy of Louisiana and Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts. Plus, the biggest loser.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Well, I think if they win, I should get all of the credit, and if they lose I should not be blamed at all.
CHUCK TODD:
Donald Trump's hand-picked candidates hurt Republicans. What will his party do when he announces this week that he's running for a third time? And how will Trump handle a challenge from the person who did generate a one-state wave?
GOV. RON DESANTIS:
We will never ever surrender to the woke mob. Florida is where woke goes to die!
CHUCK TODD:
Finally, “watch me.”
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
So, I’m not going to change.
CHUCK TODD:
President Biden says he heard the frustration from voters but insists he doesn't have to change. So how will he govern now? I’ll talk to White House Senior Advisor Anita Dunn. Joining me for insight and analysis are: NBC News Senior Washington Correspondent Hallie Jackson; Jake Sherman, co-founder of Punchbowl News; Symone Sanders-Townsend, former chief Spokeswoman for Vice President Kamala Harris; and Stephen Hayes, editor of The Dispatch. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, good Sunday morning. Democrats have now done what seemed somewhat improbable a few months ago. They defied historical patterns and an economy that was still recovering from Covid, and they maintained control of their narrow majority in the Senate. They might actually increase their majority. In Nevada, Democratic Senator Catherine Cortez Masto narrowly defeated her Republican challenger Adam Laxalt, giving the Democrats officially 50 seats. Now we know they will retain the majority. Another endangered incumbent, Democrat Mark Kelly, also held onto his seat in Arizona, defeating Republican Blake Masters in a race that we called late on Friday night. So it means that Georgia, where Democratic Senator Raphael Warnock and Republican Herschel Walker will be meeting in a runoff on December 6, will not decide Senate control -- simply whether the Democrats will have 51 or 50. And Democrats do have a path, believe it or not, to hold onto control of the House -- unheard of, unthought of six weeks ago. Now the path is very narrow, and Republicans are still favored to win control. Our current NBC News House estimate has the number for Republican at 219 plus or minus four seats. So it could be as high as 223 or as low as 215, meaning the Democrats could end up in control. In fact, let me go to the board to show you what this path would look like. Look, we have 20 uncalled House races right now. Republicans need to win seven of these to win back control of the House. Democrats need to win 14. Democrats right now lead in 10 of the 20. These are the districts they currently lead in. If it's – if it's in red here it means it's currently a Republican-held district. This one in yellow is a brand new district in the state of Oregon. So they have to hold all 10 of these, not necessarily a given, but right now, let's assume that. And then these are the 10 seats that Republicans currently lead in. Democrats have to win four of these. And again, these blue ones are Democratic-held seats that the Republicans currently lead in here. So, what are the best shots of that? Well, here are eight places that I'm looking where maybe they can find their four. The California seats: right now, we're still counting. Look at this. That's still under 50. This one's still under 50% reporting. These two barely over 50%. So look, later ballots could be Democratic, that could help them catch here. So, we have a long way to go in California. We should know mid-week next week on those races. Then I would take a look at these four races here. This one in particular in Arizona, these late ballots have been trending Democratic. This could be a good sign for them to find one there. I'm a little skeptical here Democrats can catch the Republican here in New York. Ditto with Lauren Boebert in Colorado, and ditto with this one here in Oregon, but the path exists. That's what's remarkable. No matter what, control of the House is going to be by two or three seats max. And by the way, I want to show you something else here. This number: $7.6 billion. Now just think about that. That's the amount of money that was spent this cycle just on political ads. We've had this roller coaster of a cycle -- billions of dollars thrown at every candidate left and right. All for just a small handful of seats to change hands. Not a single Senate incumbent, barring what happens in the runoff, so far has lost. And just one governor has lost: Nevada’s Steve Sisolak. Just think about how few incumbents have lost in this political environment. Now, look, the recriminations are beginning for the Republicans, beginning of course, with the leader of their party, Donald Trump ahead of his planned 2024 announcement at Mar-a-Lago on Tuesday. The Rupert Murdoch outlets have -- are on the attack on Trump. Wall Street Journal editorial board declared Trump the party's “biggest loser.” The New York Post has been boosting Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, anointing him “DeFuture” and proclaiming “Trumpty Dumpty.” But it's not just Trump that's under the microscope now among Republicans in the House. You have members of the Freedom Caucus already threatening to withhold support for Kevin McCarthy if he puts his name in for speaker. And in the Senate, a growing group of Senate Republicans are calling for a delay in leadership elections. First real challenge we've seen in quite some time, potentially, to Mitch McConnell. So what's going on with the Republican Party right now? Joining me is -- from Baton Rouge is Republican Senjoe biedededator Bill Cassidy of Louisiana. Senator Cassidy, it is good to see you after the election. So, let me just start with that. What did you learn from this election?
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
I learned that the American people want a way forward that actually focuses on ideas, ideas that will make their lives better, not just their lives but that for future generations. Those who are most closely aligned with the former president under-performed. Those who are talking about the future or who had managed their states well, they over-performed. The American people want ideas. They want a future.
CHUCK TODD:
It sounds like you just blamed Donald Trump for the Senate, at least. Is that fair?
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
No, I'm looking at it empirically. Those that were most closely aligned with the past, those are the ones that under-performed. We, as a party, need to have a debate about ideas. In that debate, we need to explain to the American people exactly where we think our country should go. And by the way, since I think, since I think using market forces to make the individuals' lives more free, more prosperous, is the way to go, I think we win that debate.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, it's interesting, you have not been shy about your criticism of Donald Trump. You voted to convict him after January 6th. When you look at your vote and you look at the votes of some of your colleagues that we know were thinking about it but decided not to, in hindsight how big of a mistake was it not to convict Trump when you had the chance?
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
I can't speak to that. Again, that's more of a focus upon the past. The American people wish to have a discussion about the future. I think they really want to air out ideas as to, "Okay, which party has better ideas?" I'm an ideas guy. I welcome that debate. I think our party should be pointing to the future. I think our country should be. And I think that's the only way we give the American voter that which she or he deserves.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, it's interesting, there was a bit of a debate between the head of the Senate campaign committee, Rick Scott, and the Senate Republican leader, Mitch McConnell, about: Should the Republicans offer up an agenda to run on? Now, Rick Scott offered up something that not every Republican was happy about. Mitch McConnell said, "We'll wait until after the election." So where do you sit on that debate?
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
We are after the election. We've got big problems in our country. The degree that both parties duck these big problems is the degree that the voter says, "Pox on both your houses." So let's have a debate about the domestic issues, about the foreign issues, and then let's implement. We've got to get some things done. By the way, Chuck, I think I can say this with some credibility, since I have been involved, or at least frankly, either in the mix or leading on issues to limit surprise medical billing, to lower the cost of prescription drugs, to do the bipartisan infrastructure bill. We can get things done. We need to get them done. And that's, I think, what the American voter's looking for.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think it's time for a change in leadership amongst Senate Republicans? Do you think it's time for Senator McConnell to step down?
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
You know, I'm actually going to support Mitch. I think Mitch kind of pulled the chestnuts out of the fire for candidates who, for whatever reason, were having a difficult time raising the money that, as you pointed out, was required to have a winning campaign. And I think going forward, Mitch will be our leader, but that is not to say that we're not going to have a necessary debate about ideas. And I think it's very -- again, one more time -- important for us to explain to the American voter why Republicans have a better vision for the future of our country.
CHUCK TODD:
I guess I ask this: If this is the result of these elections, but the Republican Party still has, sort of, the same leadership – at RNC, Ronna McDaniel, Kevin McCarthy of House Republicans, Mitch McConnell of Senate Republicans, and of course, Donald Trump is sort of the leader out there – if there's no change there, do you think that's a problem for Republicans going forward?
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
First, we're not a cult. We're not like, "Okay, there's one person who leads our party." If we have a sitting president, she or he will be the leader of our party. But we should be a party of ideas and principles. And that's what should lead us. And I will go back – what we've been lacking perhaps is that fulsome discussion followed up with the policy initiatives that we work to pass that will define who we are. Again, we are not going to have one person anointed, unless she or he happens to be a sitting president. We should have a set of principles and ideas and legislative accomplishments that is our lodestar, if you will. That's where we need to go.
CHUCK TODD:
I understand that's where you should go. How do you get the party there? Because you know how hard it is. You know the base of this party still loves Donald Trump. Or do you think that this midterm could break that spell?
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
You know, elections are about winning. And so, if folks want to look at these election results and decide that's where you want us to continue to be, then we're not going to do well. If people are going to look at these election results and say, "Hey, listen, the Republicans have established themselves, ourselves, as the anti-woke brand.” We care about being anti-woke. Now let's have a series of policy initiatives that actually help people's lives get better. I can point to the examples I mentioned earlier that I've been involved with. Surprise medical billing – that legislation has prevented about 11 million surprise medical bills in this year since it was signed into law in January. That's fantastic. Similarly, we can go to the bipartisan infrastructure bill, which was led by the Senate with Republicans fully engaged in making sure that the average American, for example, has access to high-speed affordable internet. We can look at those legislative accomplishments, get them done, build the credibility so that next time, next election, people decide to vote Republican.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, Donald Trump's announcing his candidacy for president on Tuesday, whether anybody wants him to or not. And we understand people have tried to get him to postpone this decision. He's not going to do that. Are you at all concerned that his just mere presence is just going to make it that much harder for Republicans to recover?
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
You know, we have to be a party about the future. And so if we're talking about the future, the American voter, she'll make her choice. And if we have results that show, "These are our ideas." Now, if the left frustrates our efforts, well, that will be part of what we will discuss. But we just have to make that case. I think you see, for example, a governor like Governor DeWine in Ohio, who's governed extremely well, giving an example of putting forward policies that make the people in Ohio's lives better. And he had an incredible victory. And we can go around the country and see that. So, if we have a track record, if we have the ideas, then we will appeal to that voter talking about the future.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, I understand that, and I know where you're trying to head here, but Donald Trump doesn't want to head in the direction you want to head. How do you stop that direction? What do you do? Do you rally around -- Is it time to rally around --
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
Yeah --
CHUCK TODD:
-- Ron DeSantis now?
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
By offering an alternative. Again, the Republican Party should be the party of ideas and principles. I think I have attempted to live my political life that way: principles, ideas that will work to make the American people's lives better. Who is our next nominee will sort itself out. But we have to appeal to those within our party and without our party if we are going to win. And they're going to respond to a positive message which says, "This is how our ideas will make your life better." Now, we should welcome that debate. I do. I try and live my life with principles and ideas. And if we do that, then we will win.
CHUCK TODD:
Can you imagine having to support Donald Trump again if he's the nominee of your party?
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
Our party should be about the future. I think our next candidate will be looking to the future, not to the past, and I think our next candidate will win. And so I anticipate supporting a candidate who's looking to the future.
CHUCK TODD:
And if that candidate's Donald Trump, do you plan on supporting that candidate?
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
You're giving me a theoretical, which actually I don't think will come to transpire because we have to be looking to the future. And so you can give me a theoretical after a theoretical. I will say we should be a party of ideas and principles. I welcome that. I've tried to live my life that way. And I think our next candidate will similarly embody that perspective.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. Senator Bill Cassidy, Republican from Louisiana, thanks for coming on and sharing your perspective with us. Appreciate it.
SEN. BILL CASSIDY:
Thanks, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. Joining me now is Democratic senator Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts. Senator Warren, welcome back to Meet The Press.
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me start with --
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
Good to be here.
CHUCK TODD:
– the same question I started to Senator Cassidy. What did you learn from the midterms? What are you taking away?
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
I learned that when Democrats deliver, Democrats win. We got out there. We fought for working people. That's the heart and soul of the Democratic party. And the voters said, "Yeah, that's what we want." The Republicans, by contrast, they were there for the billionaires and the billionaire corporations. They were extremists. They wanted to fight about conspiracy theories and the 2020 election. And voters said, "No, we need somebody on our side." So Democrats fought, Democrats delivered, Democrats won. And that should inform what we do during the lame duck and what we do in 2023 and 2024.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to get to a couple things in the lame duck in a minute. But I want to ask you something about the message voters sent. You know, in the exit poll, we asked, "Which party do you trust more," on five sets of issues. And the Republicans were more trusted on foreign policy, crime, inflation, and immigration. The only issue they weren't trusted more on was on the issue of abortion. And the reason I ask this question this way is for you, Senator. The voters seem to perhaps not be happy with Democratic governance, but there was just no way they were going to go to Trump candidates. I think that's pretty clear. Do you have a concern that Democratic-- Democrats can't win if they're running against, say, normal Republicans, kind of like Chris Sununu or Mike DeWine, people like that?
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
No. I do not have such a concern. In fact, look. Donald Trump, with his preening and his selection of truly awful candidates, didn't do his party any favors. But this victory belongs to Joe Biden. It belongs to Joe Biden and the Democrats who got out there and fought for working people. The things we did were important and popular. Remember, right after Joe Biden was sworn in, all of the economists and the pundits in his ear who were saying, "Go slow, go small." Joe Biden didn't listen to them. And in fact, he went big. He went big on vaccinations. He went big on testing. But he also went big on helping people who were still unemployed, on setting America's working families up so they could manage the choppy waters in the economy following the pandemic. And then with the Inflation Reduction Act, we delivered again and delivered big. You know, $35 cap on insulin. There will be a cap of $2,000 on what seniors spend on prescription drugs. We're cutting the cost of utilities, cutting the cost of insurance payments, and forcing giant corporations that have been paying nothing to pay a 15% minimum corporate tax. Every one of those things is popular. The Republicans, every single one of them voted against every provision I just described. The president's leadership put us in a position, every candidate, up and down the ballot, to talk about what Democrats fight for and what we deliver on. And by doing that, we were able to address the values and the economic security of people across this country. And it sure paid off. It paid off at historic levels.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. I want to tick off about three or four issues here that you have sort of unique insight on. Number one, I know in your op-ed, you're calling for raising the debt ceiling in the lame duck. Would you just simply eliminate it, or in this --
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
Yeah --
CHUCK TODD:
– case, raise it just past so that you can get through 2025?
EN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
Okay, look. Let me just be sure to set this up really fast. This assumes that if the Republicans take the house --
CHUCK TODD:
That's right. We can't assume anything there --
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
– then we need to -- that's right. That's right. We cannot. If the Democrats take the House, then there's no urgency around this. But no matter what, the United States of America has to honor its outstanding obligations. Me, I'd get rid of the debt ceiling altogether. It serves no function except to create leverage for people who are willing to blow up the economy. And that's the problem we've got right now. Many of these new Republicans who are coming in are people who are coming in with exactly one goal: get Donald Trump elected in 2024. And they see that if they can create chaos in the economy, then they think that may move Donald Trump one inch closer to election. So we've got to take that away from them, take care during the -- lame duck, take care of raising the debt limit or getting rid of it altogether. I'm there.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to talk about the president's student loan forgiveness program, which the courts are potentially going to say he can't do, saying, look, this needs to be appropriated from Congress. Okay. This is something you could do in the lame duck. Should you wait for this court outcome or simply codify the president's student loan plan via Congress?
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
So look, I'd be delighted to codify what the president is doing. But here's the key. I don't have any doubt that the president has the legal authority to cancel this student loan debt. President Trump did it. President Obama did it. And President Biden has actually done it up to now on student loan debt payments. But we have a court down in Texas. And if they're going to play politics instead of actually following the law, they do put the program at risk. But to me, this is one of the clearest differences between Democrats and Republicans. Democrats, led by Joe Biden, are out there saying, "We hear you on what it's like to get crushed by student loan debt. We know what that means and so we're here to try to help." The Republicans, they've got nothing. They say, "No." The only people that they're willing to fight for are billionaires and billionaire corporations and conspiracy theorists. Democrats fight for working people. And when we fight for working people, we win.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. I want to ask you about the Fed. You have been somewhat critical of the Fed chair for these interest rate cuts. Excuse me, interest rate hikes right now. Do you think they've been --
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
Interest rate hikes.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think they've been too large and do you want them to stop, or do you think the path they're going on is reasonable?
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
Look, I worry about increased costs for families. This is – it’s hard on families when prices go up. But I also worry about a Fed that only has one tool in its toolbox and that is to raise interest rates. And the Fed chair has said directly to me in hearings, "Well, no. Raising interest rates actually doesn't directly affect the price of groceries. It doesn't affect the price of oil. It's not going to affect the price of health care." In other words, it's not going to have a direct effect on what families are paying. But what it will do, what it can do, is put a lot of people out of work and tip this economy from being a healthy economy into recession. The Fed has been way out on the extreme. It has raised rates faster and more frequently than any time in decades and decades. And so I worry about what it does to our economy overall. I want the Fed to slow down here. We're watching inflation maybe ease off a little. And let America's working people keep their jobs, keep this economy healthy.
CHUCK TODD:
Okay.
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
The Fed has a dual mandate on inflation, but also on employment. I want them to remember that.
CHUCK TODD:
Senator Elizabeth Warren, Democrat from Massachusetts, boy, did I want to spend another five minutes talking about crypto and what's happening at FTX, but I am running out of time. We've had a great conversation about that in the past. So anyway, thank you.
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, the low approval ratings and near record inflation were not enough to stop Democrats in the midterms. What lessons did President Biden take away from the midterms? And we'll talk to White House senior advisor Anita Dunn next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. President Biden said that voters sent a clear and unmistakable message on Tuesday that they want to preserve democracy and abortion rights. But he also acknowledged frustrations with high inflation and endless political battles. Traveling in Cambodia last night, he called Democratic Senate control a win for his own agenda.
-start tape-
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
I'm not surprised by the turnout. I am incredibly pleased by the turnout. And I think it's a reflection of the quality of our candidates, and they're all running on the same program. There wasn't anybody who wasn't running on what we did.
-end tape-
CHUCK TODD:
Well, joining me now is Anita Dunn, the senior advisor to President Biden. Anita, welcome back to Meet the Press.
ANITA DUNN:
Hey, Chuck, thank you for having me on. And I just have to say, I too would've yielded five minutes to Elizabeth Warren to hear her talk about crypto.
CHUCK TODD:
More on crypto, I know. There's so many people who want to talk midterms so, I, we are making an appointment to do that again. We've done a lot on our own here.
ANITA DUNN:
Good.
CHUCK TODD:
But let me start, I want to start with something that the president was asked at the press conference. Let me play it again. And it was about what he took away from the midterms. Take a listen.
-start tape-
REPORTER:
75% of voters say the country is heading into the wrong direction. Despite the results of last night, what in the next two years do you intend to do differently to change people's opinion of the direction of the country, particularly as you contemplate a run for president in 2024?
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
Nothing. Because they're just finding out what we're doing. The more they know about what we're doing, the more support there is.
-end tape-
CHUCK TODD:
So, when you look at these polls, and let me put up a graphic here from the exit poll where more people said that Biden's policies are mostly hurting the country than helping the country, do you really believe this is a messaging problem?
ANITA DUNN:
You know, Chuck, as the president traveled the country, and I had the opportunity to travel with him in that final week, you didn't go to a congressional district or a state where the Democrats weren't running on some aspect of the president's agenda, whether it was: lowering prescription drug prices or the Inflation Reduction Act clean energy provisions, which obviously young voters in particular are very excited about; making corporations pay their fair share, finally; the richest, wealthiest corporations in this country having to pay a minimum tax; the infrastructure bill, the CHIPS investments that are making America a leader again in both manufacturing and in the economies of the future. That’s what Democratic candidates were running on. Now, the reality is that a lot of communities across the country haven't felt the effects on this yet because it takes a little time to implement these things. And obviously, the Inflation Reduction Act didn't even pass until August. So what the president has been saying and what he believes is that as these bills, as these programs really become projects, as they become community-changing, forward-looking progress across this country, that people are going to, you know, they’re going to feel it. The president likes to say, "They haven't felt it yet." That's true. They haven't felt a lot of this yet. But starting next year, they really start to feel a lot of it, particularly lower drug costs. And we think that'll make a huge difference in how people see this.
CHUCK TODD:
I'm curious what you thought of the fact that there were sort of two distinct results in these midterms. Republicans that were far away from Trump did quite well. And obviously those that were easily classified, I think the term the president used, "MAGA Republicans," I think showed that that was a very effective message to push back on that. Do you think the-- the-- the Democrats and the president are ready to win a debate with a normal Republican?
ANITA DUNN:
You know, Chuck, when the president first started using the term "MAGA Republican" back in May, there were a lot of pundits, a lot of people thought it wouldn't work. You know, Trump, former President Trump kind of adopted it himself. But it was a very effective strategy for kind of raising for the American people the hazards of going down that path with democracy denial, with the threats of political violence to achieve political ends, with an extremist program that involves denying women the right to an abortion. Now, economic policies that continue to be trickled down, as opposed to bottom up and middle out the way President Biden is fighting for. So the reality is that, and I felt Senator Cassidy really set it up very well earlier, the Republican Party has to come up with what they're actually for. It's very clear what President Biden and the Democratic Party are for. They are for working people, for middle-class people, for policies that change what's happened over the last 40 years in this country where the wealthy just got wealthier and the people at the top did well, and everybody else lost ground. That's what he ran on in 2020. That is what he has set out to do. And he's made some real progress. But he has a lot more to do.
CHUCK TODD:
A House of Representatives that is a two-seat margin for either party is a tough place to govern, tough place to corral. Good luck to whoever has to do that on that front. But what does that portend for the next two years, legislatively? Are we looking at smaller, incremental things that get through Congress? Or do you think even with a one-seat majority, you could do more if somehow the Democrats end up on top here?
ANITA DUNN:
Well, I wouldn't say a 50-50 split Senate and a very narrow House majority had been all that easy over the first two years.
CHUCK TODD:
I know, those could be the good old days, though --
ANITA DUNN:
Look at what President Biden --
CHUCK TODD:
– compared to this.
ANITA DUNN:
It could be the good old days, but – but I would just say that, that, you know, the president was able to get huge bipartisan legislation passed in his first two years: the CHIPS and Science bill, the infrastructure bill. Presidents have been talking for decades about infrastructure. Joe Biden got it done. The PACT Act to help our veterans, the first major gun legislation -- gun safety legislation in over 30 years, that was all bipartisan. And the reality is that the people of this country want progress. They want people to work together. They want progress, and they want their leaders in Washington to put their priorities first and not necessarily political priorities. And that's the message I think that you hear. So, you know, we believe Democratic agenda versus Republican agenda, Democratic agenda wins because it's about working people, about middle class. It's about moving this country forward.
CHUCK TODD:
I would like you to respond to a couple things Senator Warren is calling for. Number one, having the debt ceiling in the lame duck. Is that something the president would like?
ANITA DUNN:
You know, the White House has been clear that the lame, the debt ceiling needs to be lifted. It should be. The reality is that under the prior president it happened three times with Republicans controlling Congress. It needs to happen again, obviously sometime next year. Whether it gets done in the lame duck or next year is really up to Congress. But here's what's important, which is: the debt ceiling should not be held hostage to policy changes. And there's no way that any political party should throw this economy and the global economy into chaos by refusing to lift it. And that's what's important.
CHUCK TODD:
The president’s student loan plan - the current - the courts clearly are, would like, believe that it should be codified in Congress, the ones that have vacated it. Do you want to pursue that, or would you like to wait to see what the Supreme Court has to say?
ANITA DUNN:
Well, Chuck, you know, there have been a couple of challenges to it that have gone directly to the Supreme Court so far, that have been kicked out immediately. There's one judge in Texas right now, who has made a ruling that we just disagree with. We think it's wrong. We believe that the law is on our side. We're appealing and we believe this program will be upheld. But let's be clear: There’s 26 million people in this country who have already applied for this student debt relief – working people, people who are just looking for, as the president would say, a little breathing room, and Republicans are trying to stop this, and we're going to fight for it. We believe it'll be upheld. We believe we can give those people the student debt relief, but we also want to make it clear who is trying to stop this and that's the Republican Party, that has no trouble giving huge tax breaks to wealthy and wealthy corporations, but denies $10,000 in student debt relief to people who are really struggling.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, Anita Dunn, senior advisor for President Biden. Appreciate you coming on after the midterms and sharing your perspective.
ANITA DUNN:
Well, thank you for having me on, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
And the vote counting continues. But what are the real lessons from the midterms? Panel's going to weigh in next. But before we go to break, we want you to meet some of the historymakers from the midterm election. We're going to do this throughout the show before each commercial break here, beginning with some of the new governors.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back, panel is here. Hallie Jackson, NBC senior Washington correspondent, host of Hallie Jackson Now, Jake Sherman, co-founder of Punchbowl News, Stephen Hayes, editor of The Dispatch, and Symone Sanders-Townsend, host of MSNBC's SYMONE. All right, as we all face the reality of the worse-than-expected performance on Tuesday, many Republicans are saying there is one man to blame: Donald Trump. That it's somehow time for the party to move on. Well, we've all seen this movie before. I just want to remind people, here where Republicans were saying, "Trump's got to go" in October of 2016.
[START TAPE]
SEN. MIKE LEE::
And I respectfully ask you, with all due respect, to step aside. Step down.
REP. JASON CHAFFETZ:It's sad, really, but I can't endorse Donald Trump for president after those comments and the way he said them.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
We know what happened there. Then there was January 6th and the violent insurrection on the U.S. Capitol.
[START TAPE]
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
All I can say is count me out. Enough is enough.
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
The president bears responsibility for Wednesday's attack on Congress by mob rioters.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
All right, so is this time different? Well, some Republicans swear it is.
[START TAPE]
LT. GOV. GEOFF DUNCAN:
This is a time that Donald Trump is no doubt in the rearview mirror and it's time to move on with the party.
REP.-ELECT MIKE LAWLER:
Moving in a different direction as we move forward is a good thing.
LT. GOV. WINSOME EARLE-SEARS:
The voters have spoken and they have said that they want a different leader. And a true leader understands when they have become a liability.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
I'll throw a puck. Hallie?
HALLIE JACKSON:
So, Chuck, as you said, we've been here before. We've sat around this table before. People have asked before, "Will this time be any different?" Let me tell you what Donald Trump is doing this weekend I'm told. He's signing off on the placards to be at Mar-a-Lago for his run for president on Tuesday night, right? The speech is written. I'm told it has no mention of Glenn Youngkin or Ron DeSantis in it as scripted, but we all know how that goes, right?
CHUCK TODD:
I love the idea that he's got a speech, as if he's going to follow it.
HALLIE JACKSON:
Well, of course, exactly. I mean, how many speeches? But here's the thing. We know who Donald Trump is, right? And so I hear Senator Bill Cassidy when he comes out and says people aligned with the past underperformed and we've got to move on. But like I think there's a real question mark when you look at past as precedent. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but I'm saying look at the history and the pattern up until now.
CHUCK TODD:
He chased Elise Stefanik away. Oh, no he didn't.
JAKE SHERMAN:
Yeah, I mean, the entire leadership still remains behind Donald Trump. And he is a litmus test for a lot of candidates in the leadership elections. People are trying to be more Donald Trump than the next guy.
CHUCK TODD:
And when you refer to leadership, by the way, in the House.
JAKE SHERMAN:
House leadership.
CHUCK TODD:
Obviously not the Senate leaders.
JAKE SHERMAN:
Not the Senate. Yeah, I mean, he remains the most popular figure in the House Republican Conference. Probably the most popular figure on Capitol Hill among Republicans.
STEPHEN HAYES:
Could he get 218 votes for speaker?
CHUCK TODD:
No.
JAKE SHERMAN:
I don't know who can, but he can’t.
CHUCK TODD:
Steve, you started a news organization designed to sort of steer conservatives away from Donald Trump.
STEPHEN HAYES:
Well, yeah, I mean, we wanted a report based on conservative principles. But yeah, we've been very--
CHUCK TODD:
And facts.
STEPHEN HAYES:
--critical. Facts--
CHUCK TODD:
Crazy things like that, yeah.
STEPHEN HAYES:
--principles. But, yeah, we've been very critical of Donald Trump. So I'll take the bait. Yeah, I think this is different. I think this is different. I've had conversations with a number of members of the House, a number of senators in the past few days. And there's a common theme. They're hearing it from the grass roots. They're angry that Donald Trump is going after Ron DeSantis. Ron DeSantis won Florida by 20 points. He seems to be making Florida a red state. This is a model for Republicans across the country, and Donald Trump spent his time after this election going after Ron DeSantis, going after Glenn Youngkin, going after Mitch McConnell.
CHUCK TODD:
People who actually overperformed, by the way.
STEPHEN HAYES:
Right, right.
CHUCK TODD:
Glenn Youngkin, who won a blue state. Ron DeSantis--
STEPHEN HAYES:
But I think the losing point--
CHUCK TODD:
--put a (UNINTEL) in a way.
STEPHEN HAYES:
--is a very important one. A couple years ago I had a conversation with Anthony Gonzalez, Republican representative from outside of Cleveland. And he said to me at the time, "Republicans will understand this when it's clear that Donald Trump is going to cost them politically." That's where we are. This is unambiguous. This is Donald Trump's loss.
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
I just feel like, though, we had the 2018 midterm elections, you had 2020. This is not the first time that they have lost, right? Donald Trump has been the anvil and the head of the Republican Party for a while now. So I just think this is what happens post something bad happens. Everybody gets on their high horses, "We want to do better. We want to be better. This is not us." And then they are right back to where we've seen them before.
HALLIE JACKSON:
The thing that's a little bit different now is the seed that he planted especially in 2020, this idea of the lies about election fraud, the election denialism, that also lost. And I know you were interested in this back when I was covering the secretary of state races, the ones we don't normally talk about. And competitively, right? Competitive secretary of state races, election denialism was wiped out in these key 2024 battleground states. That is a little bit different because there is no indication that Donald Trump is going to suddenly start to message on something else.
CHUCK TODD:
And let me add something else here that maybe you could say this different. His own candidate actually conceded. I think it's like Don Bolduc, "The campaign is over." Tudor Dixon, "We came up short." Tim Michels, "It wasn't our night tonight." Mehmet Oz, "I called John Fetterman and congratulated him." So the Trump-backed candidates wouldn't play the Trump crazy to deny their loss. That must mean something to the grassroots point, no?
JAKE SHERMAN:
Yeah, and furthermore, I think even more importantly, and this dovetails with what you're saying, the Trump candidates not only in the Senate but in the House, Trump candidates, Trump-fueled candidates, Trump-inspired candidates lost resoundingly. I mean, you look at these districts around the country, Bo Hines North Carolina is a perfect example. A winnable seat for House Republicans, would've put them on a clear path to the majority, lost.
CHUCK TODD:
J.R. Majewski.
JAKE SHERMAN:
J.R. Majewski in Ohio.
CHUCK TODD:
John Gibbs in Michigan.
JAKE SHERMAN:
Yeah, it is not--
CHUCK TODD:
Joe Kent in Washington State.
JAKE SHERMAN:
A double-digit Republican district. I mean, they're all losing.
STEPHEN HAYES:
This is unambiguous.
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
But these weren't blowouts. I guess my only thing is when you talk to people out there, voters, these were not blowouts. These were very close races. You talk about secretaries of state, I think about the 1 million people that voted for the election denier in Arizona. Right so there is something still there.
CHUCK TODD:
You take any heart that there's 50% plus one in the House?
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
I am excited that democracy prevailed. But I think it would be wrong for us to just believe that there's a huge swing the opposite way. It was close.
STEPHEN HAYES:
No, I think that's right. But election denial doesn't have to be seen as a means to an end. The people who embraced denialism did sort of get Trump's support in the primaries.
HALLIE JACKSON:
For the primaries.
STEPHEN HAYES:
Primarily. And then it was useless to them. So at the end, after they lose, what's the point of being an election denialist at this point when most people know it didn't happen?
CHUCK TODD:
All right, let's end with Kevin McCarthy. We have Jake here because nobody knows counting more what's going on in the House Republicans.
HALLIE JACKSON:
No presh.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, I don't see how anybody has 218 votes for speaker, and I don't care if you're the Democrats or the Republicans. How is anybody going to get to 218 with this margin? We've never had this in any of our lifetimes.
JAKE SHERMAN:
You're correct. I don't know who's going to get 218. McCarthy's people are still confident he will get there.
CHUCK TODD:
You're assuming Republicans are going to be the ones who--
JAKE SHERMAN:
Correct.
CHUCK TODD:
I mean, this is--
JAKE SHERMAN:
Nancy Pelosi can get 218. I have no doubt about that if Democrats--
CHUCK TODD:
She'll figure it out--
JAKE SHERMAN:
--take back the House. She will. But the problem for McCarthy is that the people who don't want him to be speaker don't really want anyone to be speaker. They don't have a clear alternative, they just don't like McCarthy. And that's really difficult. And remember, this election for speaker is in January. We're talking about 50 days away. I mean, this is going--
CHUCK TODD:
Painful.
JAKE SHERMAN:
--to be a very painful couple of weeks, couple of months for Kevin McCarthy.
STEPHEN HAYES:
The other problem for McCarthy, the clear lesson out of this is that people don't want more Donald Trump. They don't want this. And what did Kevin McCarthy do in pursuit of being speaker? He embraced Donald Trump within a couple weeks of January 6th. He tied himself to Donald Trump. There are going to be--
CHUCK TODD:
Jason Miller is already threatening him. If he doesn't support Donald Trump, his presidential candidate can't--
JAKE SHERMAN:
By the way, I don't think there's any question that McCarthy supports Donald Trump, so I don't know really where that threat's coming from.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah, it is amusing. All right, we'll pause here. When we come back, we're going to look at the true swing voters from the midterms. We think we've found them.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back, Data Download time. It seems that as our nation gets a bit more polarized it becomes harder to find and define the swing voters that do still ultimately decide close elections. But when you break down Tuesday's result by how voters see President Biden, a pretty clearly-defined swing voting bloc does emerge. It is voters who, quote, "somewhat disapprove of the job President Biden is doing." Let me show you here. Look, as you can see, if you approve of the president, you voted in big numbers for Democrats. And if you strongly disapprove of President Biden, you voted big numbers for Republicans. But look at this: 10% told us they only somewhat disapprove of the job President Biden is doing. And they voted Democratic? Let me explain. Let's take two states here, New Hampshire and Georgia, where we saw a big split among these voters. Governor Sununu won reelection quite easily, and among somewhat Biden disapprovers he won 60% of them. Don Bolduc lost the Senate race, a Trump-backed candidate. He only got 25%. Go to Georgia: a similar story. Governor Kemp wins 57% of these swing voters. Herschel Walker wins only 44% of these swing voters. And we saw this across the board, especially with the more Trump-associated candidates. Now, who are these voters? Well, they're young, and they're independent. Overall, as you can see, 25% of the electorate was under the age of 35. But among the somewhat disapprovers, 50% of this group is in that age bracket. And they're very independent. Just 13% of the overall electorate call themselves independent; a quarter of this group calls themselves independent. And among the Democrats, they're way more progressive than the Democratic Party. Look at this: 62% of these somewhat disapprovers that identified as Democrats were Sanders/Warren supporters. So it's very likely that they somewhat disapprove of President Biden because they don't think he's been progressive enough. Among the Republicans in this group, they are decidedly anti-Trump. As you can see, Republicans overall, 35% said they were Trump supporters, 57% told us that they were more Republican Party supporters. But among these disapprovers: 81% Republican, just 13% Trump supporters. So this was a group that didn't like the Trump wing of the party and seemed to vote that way. Up next, a look back at the lessons Republicans learned in a different midterm election.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. We are celebrating 75 years of Meet the Press this month. So in honor of that, we're bringing back the Meet the Press Minute. Today, we look back to 2006 when Republicans faced a setback in the midterm elections.
[START TAPE]
TIM RUSSERT:
In May, you were asked if the Democrats won control of the House and/or the Senate: How would that affect your presidential race? You said, quote, "I think it depends on the message of the American people. Are they sick of us Republicans? Are they sick of all incumbents? You can tell when people go to the ballot booth what their priorities are, what their concerns are far better than any other way." What did you hear from the voters on Tuesday?
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN:
That we Republicans have lost our way. That we came to Washington to change government, and government changed us.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
I want to pick up on something that was in there. It's the incumbents, Symone. It's remarkable. You have 73% of the country not happy with the way things are going, really dissatisfied. Yet the country fired one incumbent. Between all the incumbent governors and senators, they fired one, the governor of Nevada. We reelected a lot of people in this country even though we claim we don't like anybody that's running the country. Welcome to America, I guess.
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
Well look, I really think when people say that they don't like the direction that the country is going, they're talking about how they feel at the time. And, yeah, if you are going to the gas station and it's costing you five, six dollars to fill up your truck, you don't like that. If you're going to the grocery store and your eggs are still very expensive and bacon doesn't -- you don't like that. But, you know, "Do I think that my senator is doing a good job? Okay, sure. I'll send them back to Washington." And so I really think that we have to peel back the layers. That's why I love when you do the focus groups, because you get to ask people the follow-up questions. And it's really about how people are feeling, not necessarily that they don't like the president. Right?
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah. Look, I heard the dissatisfaction may be on the election -- on the democracy.
HALLIE JACKSON:
The other thing that John McCain talked about in that was the idea of a reckoning inside the party, right? Alluding to a reckoning inside the Republican Party. I'm old enough to remember when there was an autopsy back after, you know – . Look, this is -- I don't know that that's going to happen here. I think you're seeing it in some corners of it. I think, again, your interview with Senator Cassidy. It is clear there are people who are grappling with what is the future. You will see, I think, Donald Trump be primaried. But that kind of attitude, the idea that we're going to have a big soul-searching moment, I don't know.
JAKE SHERMAN:
What's the big saying? You don't run against the almighty. You run against the alternative.
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
That's what Joe Biden would say --
JAKE SHERMAN:
And I think what you see nationwide is candidates matter. I know it's trite. I know it's cliché. But, like, there were a lot --
CHUCK TODD:
By the way, I'm glad they do. It would be worse if the campaigns and the candidates didn't matter. I mean, this is a good thing that they matter.
JAKE SHERMAN:
Right. And I think you had a lot of bad candidates.
STEPHEN HAYES:
Your interview with Senator Cassidy I thought was fascinating for exactly that point, right? I mean, I think he correctly laid out the stark choice that Republicans have following this debacle and put himself on the side of sort of principles and ideas and the future. But then when you asked him at the end, "Will you support Donald Trump again in 2024--"
HALLIE JACKSON:
He didn’t say no.
STEPHEN HAYES:
-- he didn't say no.
HALLIE JACKSON:
But that's the next two years.
STEPHEN HAYES:
It's an extraordinary --
HALLIE JACKSON:
That’s the next two years.
STEPHEN HAYES:
-- moment. I think, look, he voted --
CHUCK TODD:
By the way, if Mitch McConnell votes to convict Trump and Trump’s convicted officially, are these midterms different, Steve?
STEPHEN HAYES:
Yeah. No, look, I think the Republican --
CHUCK TODD:
How about that as a what if?
STEPHEN HAYES:
--in the Senate. I think Republicans had the votes in the Senate. I think they could have pushed harder in the House, and they didn't have the leadership that allowed them to do it.
CHUCK TODD:
I like to do these little what-if games sometimes. That's one. Would Republicans have had their Trump reckoning earlier, and are they going to be having it too late in time for 2024? I'm going to leave you with that. That's all we have for today. Thanks for watching. We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.