CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday: My interview with former Vice President Mike Pence.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
For me, the fuse was lit in mid-November.
CHUCK TODD:
His inside account of January 6th and how he broke with Donald Trump.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
All I know is that what the president asked me to do, I would have violated my oath to the Constitution.
CHUCK TODD:
What he thinks should happen now that Trump is running for office again.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think a crime was committed?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I don’t know if it is criminal to listen to bad advice from lawyers.
CHUCK TODD:
His thoughts on the midterms.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
We had some surprising and disappointing results.
CHUCK TODD:
And who he blames for Trump’s election denial.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I was disappointed in Mark Meadows’ performance as chief of staff.
CHUCK TODD:
Plus, his criticism of Attorney General Merrick Garland for approving the FBI’s search of Trump’s Florida home.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I have great concerns about his judgment and leadership at the Justice Department.
CHUCK TODD:
And his belief that the Supreme Court’s decision overturning Roe v. Wade was the single most important achievement of the Trump administration.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I celebrate that from really the depths of my heart.
CHUCK TODD:
The former vice president opens up as he considers his own run for the White House. Joining me for insight and analysis are: New York Times Chief White House Correspondent Peter Baker; Republican strategist Brendan Buck; Kimberly Atkins Stohr, senior opinion writer for The Boston Globe; and Anna Palmer, co-founder of Punchbowl News. Welcome to Sunday, it’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning. We are following the breaking news reports of a shooting overnight at a gay nightclub in Colorado Spings, Colorado. At least five people are dead and another 18, so far, are wounded. Police say the suspect was injured, is in custody and is currently receiving treatment at a local hospital. The FBI is already on the scene and assisting local law enforcement. In a statement on their Facebook page, the club writes, “Club Q is devastated by the senseless attack on our community. We thank the quick reactions of heroic customers that subdued the gunman and ended this hate attack.” Do stay tuned to NBC News for more updates on the shooting. You can get those at nbcnews.com, as well. Turning now to politics. Republicans have taken back control of the House, squeaking into a narrow majority. But the biggest question after a disappointing midterm performance, the third disappointing election cycle in a row for the GOP: Will Republicans rally behind Donald Trump yet again? 721 days before the next presidential election, Donald Trump became one of a small group of ex-presidents to announce he will again seek another term, even after being defeated. Just one of those ex-presidents, Grover Cleveland, has been successful doing this. The timing of the announcement, at his gated Palm Beach Resort, appears to be an effort to get ahead of several federal criminal investigations. And on Friday, in reaction, Attorney General Merrick Garland appointed a special counsel to take over investigations he was overseeing into the former president's role in the events leading up to the January 6th attack on the Capitol, as well as the former president's decision to retain classified government documents at Mar-a-Lago.
[START TAPE]
ATTORNEY GENERAL MERRICK GARLAND:
Based on recent developments, including the former president's announcement that he is a candidate for president in the next election and the sitting president’s stated intention to be a candidate as well, I have concluded that it is in the public interest to appoint a special counsel.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
The attorney general's goal is to create some political distance between that investigation and, obviously, the Biden administration. That’s the reason for this appointment. Jack Smith is a longtime federal prosecutor who's mostly -- most recently been working at the International Criminal Court at The Hague. Now, if Trump falters in his presidential campaign, there are a handful of Republican hopefuls that are ready to challenge him, including his former Vice President Mike Pence. Pence’s new memoir “So Help Me God” actually was out, perhaps not so coincidentally, the same day that his running mate, Donald Trump, announced. And he describes Trump's pressure campaign, in the book, on him to refuse to certify the 2020 elections, which, of course, culminated when rioters threatened Mike Pence’s life. I spoke to the former vice president at the Reagan Presidential Library in Simi Valley, California. And I began by asking him about his likely run for president.
[START TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
The former president has said it's “disloyal" for some in the Republican Party to challenge him, and he’s speaking about not just you but Governor DeSantis, Secretary Pompeo. Do you accept the idea that running against him is disloyal?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I think the American people love competition. My loyalty is to my faith, my values, and to America. And I think if we're a part of that debate next year, and our family will sort that out before the end of the year, Chuck, or if we're just chipping in from the sidelines and others are in that contest, I think a good healthy debate over the direction of the country is warranted. I mean, since the first days of the Biden-Harris administration, it almost seems as though we have a new Democrat administration intent on weakening America at home and abroad. Whether it's the disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan, whether it be the gusher of spending that ignited the worst inflation in 40 years, the war on energy that's caused gasoline prices to go through the roof, a crime wave in our major cities. And, of course, after undoing all the successful policies that secured our Southern border, we now have the worst crisis on our Southern border in American history. And so, I truly do believe Republican primary voters want to hear a strong debate. They'll want to find our best standard bearer, so that having won back the House -- it became official this last week -- we'll have a chance to win back America in 2024.
CHUCK TODD:
You laid out a reason why you think the Biden administration has led America down a path that you don't like. Why do you think voters didn't accept that premise in 2022? They clearly didn't in the battleground states. Why do you think that was?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, they did in many states around the country. In the state of New York, four new Republican congressmen elected. May well be the margin of the majority itself. In the state of Iowa, for the first time in a half a century, they'll have all Republican members of the House of Representatives. But Chuck, I take your point. A win is a win. I'm glad to see Kevin McCarthy will accept the gavel to be the next Speaker of the House. But I'd have liked to see more Republicans elected. And I'd like to have seen Republicans win the Senate and more governorships around the country. But for me, the common denominator had to do with whether or not candidates were focused on the future. As I traveled around the country --
CHUCK TODD:
It sounds like that's code for whether or not candidates were, sort of, in the Trump spell.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, I don’t --
CHUCK TODD:
I mean, I think you're trying to be polite. I understand that --
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, I --
CHUCK TODD:
-- but it does seem that what you're saying is anybody that was close to Trump didn't do well.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Yeah, but I think it's broader than that, Chuck. For me, as I traveled, and I went to 35 states in the last year-and-a-half, campaigning for all kinds of men and women running for statewide office and for the House and the Senate. And as I sort through the results, there really is a common denominator. Candidates that were focused on the issues that people are facing today and solutions for tomorrow, focused on the future did quite well. But candidates that were focused on the past, candidates that were focused on relitigating the 2020 election did not fare as well. And we had some surprising and disappointing results.
CHUCK TODD:
You stop short of saying that the former president is unfit to serve again. But as former Defense Secretary Mark Esper says, "He's unfit for office." Another former Defense Secretary, Jim Mattis, says "Trump has no moral compass.” Bill Barr, the attorney general, "He has neither the temperament nor the persuasive powers." Judge Luttig, somebody you admire, I know, "Trump and his apologists are a clear and present danger to American democracy." Is he fit to serve as president of the United States for another four years?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I really do believe that's a decision for the American people. And President Trump has now announced his intention to seek reelection --
CHUCK TODD:
Is it your opinion? Don't you think your opinion matters to the American people --
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, I --
CHUCK TODD:
I mean, and how about this? The fact that you may run, are you sending that message without saying it?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, I'll keep you posted on whether I'm going to run or not. But I do think we'll have better choices. And -- but what I won't do is I won't join those that want to dismiss the four years of our administration and all that we accomplished for the American people. And as I write in “So Help Me God”, the president's leadership was central to our success in everything that was accomplished, whether it be rebuilding our military or decisions he made as commander in chief to allow our armed forces to crush the ISIS caliphate and take out their leader. To allow our armed forces to take out Qasem Soleimani, a man responsible for the death of hundreds of American service members during the war in Iraq. And it was the president's vision to cut taxes and roll back regulation, and his direct engagement on Capitol Hill with members of Congress that saw us pass the tax cuts and reforms that saw 7 million jobs created, unemployment at a 50-year low. It was the policies, that energy in securing our border and three Supreme Court Justices are all a great source of pride to me. And in my book “So Help Me God", I try and make sure and give the president his due. I was proud to be his vice president and advance those policies that worked for the American people against an avalanche of opposition by the Democratic Party from day one, and frankly, by many in the national media who were preoccupied with controversies and conspiracies, and the Russia, Russia, Russia message that dominated for two-and-a-half years. And so I want to give the president his due. And I --
CHUCK TODD:
You're making an ends justifies the means argument --
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, many people that want to draw broad conclusions about the president or anyone else in the public sphere, want to dismiss the balance of the record. In my book, I try and make sure and present it. But also, Chuck, I think I'm very clear in saying that the administration did not end well. That I took a strong stand. It had to be in public --
CHUCK TODD:
Did Donald Trump damage the -- let me ask you this --
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
It had to be in public, because every other time the president and I differed, as vice president I thought it was important that I kept those things in private.
CHUCK TODD:
Did Donald Trump damage the Republican Party?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
But when it came down to the peaceful transfer of power and doing my duty on the Constitution of the United States, we had the tragic day of January 6th and its aftermath. And all of that, in totality, is the president's record and the record the American people will decide upon.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, you want the public to try to split this. Are you concerned that Donald Trump's behavior post election 2020 damaged the Republican Party, and are the 2022 midterms, sort of, evidence?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, I think it really does depend on our candidates and whether or not Republican candidates around the country will learn the lessons that we learned through that tragic day, and frankly, in many of the elections that took place in the midterms. I'll never forget, I write about it in the book. It was the night before January 6th. The president and I were alone in the Oval Office, in what was ultimately a tense conversation. I had made my position clear for weeks to him, that as Vice President I believed I did not have the authority to return or reject electoral votes when the House convened to count the electoral votes for president and vice president. But there was great tension in the room, and I -- but at the outset, I remember the president looking at me. And he pointed out the window at the crowd that was gathering just off the South Lawn and in the Ellipse. And he said, "Did you see that crowd out there?" And I said, "I did, Mr. President." And he said, "Those people love us." And I said, "Those people love you." And he said, "Well, that's probably true." And then I looked at him very seriously, and I said, "And those people love the Constitution, Mr. President." I believe Republican voters and the Republican Party's future is ultimately grounded in us producing men and women who will stand up for the ideals enshrined in the Constitution and the Declaration, ideals Ronald Reagan stood for without apology. And that'll carry our movement forward for generations.
CHUCK TODD:
Does his behavior in January of 2021 tell you that he doesn't respect the Constitution?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, all I know is that what the president asked me to do, I would have violated my oath to the Constitution.
CHUCK TODD:
So that’s not respecting the -- he certainly didn't respect it enough to ask you to be disloyal to your oath.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, the president of the United States in that moment was receiving counsel from attorneys who were telling him, as the Bible says, "what his itching ears wanted to hear." He had, beginning in mid-November, dismissed some of the extraordinary and capable attorneys that were serving in the White House and serving in the campaign. And replaced them with a gaggle of lawyers who brought in conspiracy theories and made promises that they never kept. I write in the book about how it would be a year after that tragic day that one of those lawyers, Sidney Powell, actually said in a court filing that, "No reasonable person would have assumed that what we were saying was factual." Now she tells us. But the president was -- He was receiving terrible advice from people who not only shouldn't have been in the Oval Office, they shouldn't have been let on the White House grounds.
CHUCK TODD:
You’ve made that point a couple of times. You praised John Kelly for how he managed that Oval Office and managed who came in and came out of it. How much of what happened on January 6th is on the hands of Mark Meadows?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
The president's got to rely on his senior team. The term “gatekeeper” sounds offensive to the American mind. You think of open government and access. But what General John Kelly did when he became White House chief of staff, and what frankly all the best White House chiefs of staff have done throughout history, is make sure that the only people that get into the Oval Office are people that have the credibility to be there. And they make sure that the president understands what they're coming to talk about, so he's in a position to be able to make the decisions that only a president can make. General Kelly created that order, and sadly, when he left Mick Mulvaney I think did his level best as an interim chief of staff to bring that about. But I was disappointed in Mark Meadows' performance as chief of staff, particularly at the end. But from very early on, when it was clear that he had talked the president out of White House coronavirus press briefings, in a very real sense I think his tenure as chief of staff did not serve the president well.
CHUCK TODD:
It sounds like it's not just on January 6th. Are you saying that a lot of the Covid misinformation that sometimes came out of President Trump's mouth was due to Mark Meadows' lack of gatekeeping?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well. Let's talk about Covid. I have some great chapters in the book “So Help Me God” --
CHUCK TODD:
No, I do want to talk about that, and I plan on it, but I want to ask you about Meadows specifically. Did he -- was he a bad gatekeeper then too?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well. I've always believed that in a public health emergency, more is more when it comes to information. We very quickly began press briefings on a daily basis. And I think they served the country well. But once we went through that early difficult period with Covid and the new chief of staff started his tenure, the pressure began a month or so into the pandemic to move away from the briefings.
CHUCK TODD:
You imply it in your book that meeting with the lawyers, when you had the campaign lawyers and on the speakerphone there’s Rudy Giuliani and some of these other lawyers, you've concluded that in some ways they helped foment the insurrection on January 6th. That that was the moment that you seemed to -- they went down the wrong road. Is that how you intended it to be read?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
For me the fuse was lit in mid-November.
CHUCK TODD:
In that phone call by Rudy Giuliani?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
No, the Oval Office was filled with advisers. The president's campaign advisers were there, the other senior members of the staff on the speakerphone were the new lawyers that were vying for the opportunity to lead the election challenges. Justin Clark, who is an extraordinary attorney and a man of great integrity, was telling the president about the dozens of lawsuits that have been filed challenging election results around the country. And he was painting something of a pessimistic view about the prospects of those. But the campaign had every right to file those lawsuits, and that's the process that we have. States conduct elections, and if there are questions about irregularities or fraud, they're to be brought into the courts. They can review the evidence and the law. But they were painting a picture to the president that things were likely not going to be successful. But when Rudy Giuliani said over the speakerphone that, "Your lawyers are not telling you the truth, Mr. President," things got very heated. But in that moment, it was a new low.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think the president --
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
There was shouting, there was yelling. And but in the aftermath of that meeting, the president made the decision to replace his capable campaign lawyers with this widening circle of outside attorneys, who ultimately led him to the conclusion that I had the authority to overturn the election, which was demonstrably and historically false.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think the president committed a criminal act in fomenting the insurrection? Do you think a crime was committed?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, I don't know if it is criminal to listen to bad advice from lawyers. Truth is, what the president was repeating is what he was hearing from that gaggle of attorneys around him. And, you know, presidents, just like all of us that have served in public life, you have to rely on your team. You have to rely on the credibility of the people around you. And, so as time goes on, I hope we can move beyond this, beyond that prospect. And this is really a time when our country ought to be healing. And, frankly, the Justice Department's actions have been exposed from during our administration where FBI agents were advancing political agendas, falsifying records, using what came to be – found out to be opposition research paid for by the Clinton campaign and the Democratic Party, the so-called dossier. And then this past summer, when we see the Justice Department execute a search warrant against the personal residence of a former president of the United States. I think the American people – I think the American people join me in hoping we can move past this contentious --
CHUCK TODD:
But is he above the law? I mean, if he violated the law, should he be held to the same standard that I would be held to?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Chuck, no one's above the law. But I would hope the Justice Department would give careful consideration before they take any additional steps in this matter.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, Mike Pence weighs in on Attorney General Merrick Garland and his decision to authorize a search of Trump’s Florida home.
[START TAPE]
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I have great concerns about his judgment and leadership at the Justice Department.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Central to the special counsel investigation will be Trump's removal of government records – at least 300 with classified markings, at his Mar-a-Lago home. In the affidavit used to obtain the search warrant in August, federal prosecutors cited an obstruction of justice statute, because Trump evaded a subpoena for months – Justice was trying to do this without the FBI – as well as a section of the Espionage Act, which makes it illegal to possess national security documents which could be obtained by a foreign power. On Friday, Trump's former attorney general, Bill Barr, said he actually believes the Justice Department probably has the evidence to indict Trump. But in my sit-down with Pence - taped on Thursday, the day before the special counsel announcement was made – the former vice president struck a different tone.
[START TAPE]
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I've not hesitated to criticize the president when I think he was wrong. And clearly, possessing classified documents in an unprotected area is not proper. But I have to tell you, I was on the judiciary committee for ten years in the House of Representatives. I know how the Justice Department works, and there had to be many other ways to resolve those issues and--
CHUCK TODD:
It sounds like they tried.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
--collect those classified documents--
CHUCK TODD:
They tried for a year.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
They didn't try everything. And I have to tell you, going to the last resort of executing a search warrant against a former president of the United States I think sent the wrong message. It was a divisive message in this country. But I think worse still, it was the wrong message to the wider world that looks to America as the gold standard. And--
CHUCK TODD:
Doesn't it send the message that nobody's above the law--
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
--the idea of a former president--
CHUCK TODD:
--in this country? That our democracy is so strong--
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
It is--
CHUCK TODD:
--it can handle the idea that, you know, former presidents commit, commit a crime--
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
But, Chuck, you--
CHUCK TODD:
--they don't get a pass.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
But, Chuck, you follow foreign affairs as close as anybody in your business. And it's much more commonplace in the third world that, when one leader comes in, then they prosecute and jail their previous leader. America should never be associated with that image at all. And I truly do believe and hope that the Justice Department will give careful consideration to any further steps in that light.
CHUCK TODD:
You must have really not liked it when the president, when he was in office, how many times he wanted to weaponize the IRS. He wanted to -- you've seen these reports, perhaps he didn't say it in front of you, but do you think the former president respects these institutions?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I'd let him answer that, but I never had reason to believe that he didn't respect the men and women who serve in law enforcement at every level. In fact, everywhere we go around the country to this day, I have people in law enforcement thanking me for the support that we gave them, at a time when the Democratic Party was giving voice to the "Defund the Police" movement and assuming the worst every time a tragic incident happened in a police shooting. They saw in our administration a reflexive willingness to support law enforcement, to seek the facts, to find justice, make sure justice was served. But in all the time that I served in the Trump/Pence administration, I think it was very clear our administration stood with the men and women on the thin blue line, whether they were federal law enforcement or the rank-and-file serving on the streets of our cities.
CHUCK TODD:
Okay, but you did just hit the FBI pretty hard yourself in some accusations you made about politicization. You know, how do you square the two?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, I think the men and women that serve in the FBI, the rank-and-file, are some of the best people in the United States. I put the blame for the decision to execute a search warrant at the personal residence of the former President of the United States on the leadership of the Justice Department. It's inconceivable to me that that wasn't a decision that was made at the very highest levels and approved at the highest levels.
CHUCK TODD:
The Attorney General said so. He came out, he owned it. He did--
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
That's right.
CHUCK TODD:
--own it.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
That's right. And I think he should have thought better of it, Chuck. There were preliminary steps – I want to be very clear on this – if they had additional evidence that there were additional documents, they could have gone to court--
CHUCK TODD:
They did.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
--specific production--
CHUCK TODD:
Everything you're describing, they did before. They didn't want to do it the way they--
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Trust me.
CHUCK TODD:
--ended up doing it.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Trust me, they didn't do everything they could have done, and avoided this incredibly divisive step that sent the wrong message to the country and the wrong message to the world. If anything, I want to see the Justice Department, and I think, I think a new Republican majority is going to be a part of this. I want to see the credibility of the Justice Department restored after years of politicization during the Trump-Pence administration. I mean, what went on during the time of Jim Comey's tenure, the 2016 campaign, the early days of our administration, the conduct of the FBI with regard to the Russia collusion hoax, on and on it went. And as someone who cherishes the men and women who serve in the Justice Department, and especially the FBI, I think now is the time for them to be focusing on restoring public confidence in our institutions--
CHUCK TODD:
You don't have confidence in--
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
--of federal law enforcement.
CHUCK TODD:
--Merrick Garland as attorney general, Judge Garland?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I have great difficulty with the decision that he made. I have great concerns about his judgment and leadership at the Justice Department in the wake of it.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Up next, more of my conversation with Mike Pence and what he didn't like about the Biden administration’s Covid response.
[START TAPE]
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
When President BIden came in and essentially empowered Dr. Fauci, I think the Amercian people – I think they recoiled at that approach.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. I also spoke to former Vice President Pence about the administration’s record on the Coronavirus pandemic. I asked Pence whether it troubled him, given his own role as leader of the White House Coronavirus Task Force, that Dr. Fauci has been so vilified on the right.
[START TAPE]
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I think in the early days of the Coronavirus Task Force, Dr. Fauci was a great source of comfort to millions of Americans. He had an easygoing bedside manner that he communicated at the podium. And as I said, we – we always had a good rapport in those days. Because Dr. Fauci, in my time leading the task force, always stayed in his lane. He was always the first one to say, "I'm the scientist at the table. I'm going to tell you what the scientific perspective is." But he would almost invariably say, "I know the president and you have a lot more to consider than just that. You have to think of the broader impact on the American public and on the country as a whole." And so, you know, for me, in those early days, he made an enormous difference in the development of a very balanced policy, empowering states, igniting the entrepreneurial spirit of companies around the country to develop the supplies, the masks, ultimately the medicines and the vaccines in record time. But I must tell you that, when – when the Biden administration came in and essentially turned over the management of Covid to Dr. Fauci, I was not surprised to see them put all of their emphasis on vaccines. And then, after having promised that they would not mandate vaccines, then seeking to mandate vaccines on Americans. It's still a mandate on health care workers and military personnel today. That was the doctor approach. And I think when President Biden came in and essentially empowered Dr. Fauci, I think the American people, I think they recoiled at that approach. And – and sadly, the Biden administration lost more Americans in their first year with Covid than we did in our first year, a year where we had none of the tools, few supplies, no testing, ultimately no medicines until the end.
CHUCK TODD:
Is it on them –
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
But I think it was that –
CHUCK TODD:
– that people wouldn't take vaccines? I mean, this vaccine, you were very pro vaccine. You made sure people saw you get the vaccine.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Right.
CHUCK TODD:
The reason we had all these deaths was people that wouldn't get vaccinated. That is, it was a stew that was boiling around in some of these, you know, internet conservative circles.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I know that's – I know that’s the, forgive me for saying, but that's the cliché in the national debate.
CHUCK TODD:
It's not a cliché –
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
It was all about vaccines.
CHUCK TODD:
– it's the numbers, the counties.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
But, again, Chuck –
CHUCK TODD:
I mean, look at the rural counties –
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
– with respect, Chuck –
CHUCK TODD:
No, I understand, but –
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
– the, you know –
CHUCK TODD:
The data is the data.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
The Biden administration focused exclusively on vaccines. Our administration focused on empowering states to provide them with the supplies, countermeasures for nursing homes, making sure that we had therapeutics available and distributed. There should have been an Operation Warp Speed on therapeutics. The Biden administration literally, literally stopped the development of testing and ran short of testing by the spring of their first year. There was no effort to develop lifesaving –
CHUCK TODD:
You don't –
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
– therapeutics around the country.
CHUCK TODD:
You don't accept the idea that maybe both administrations struggled with testing? I mean, let’s –
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, no, we didn't have Covid testing when I was tapped to lead the White House coronavirus task force. With the entrepreneurial –
CHUCK TODD:
Yes, CDC blew it with testing.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
– innovation of American research companies –
CHUCK TODD:
They had to go to South Korea for tests.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
We reinvented testing from a standing start. I mean, we had done 8,000 Covid tests at the end of February. But by June, because of American innovation, because of American companies that we turned to and empowered to develop those technologies, we literally were testing tens of millions of people a month.
CHUCK TODD:
Still, the vilification of Dr. Fauci. Was it – you explained why it happened. Should it have happened? Was it fair? Is it fair what President Trump has said about him and what some critics of him? Do you think this stuff's been fair?
VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE:
Well, this is a freedom-loving nation. And early on, we asked the American people to make sacrifices, in those 15 days, to slow the spread so that what was happening in New York and New Jersey and New Orleans and Detroit and Seattle wouldn't be happening everywhere. That we wouldn't run out of supplies in our hospitals, that Americans wouldn't be denied hospital beds. The American people shouldered that burden. But shutdowns were always just a temporary effort to essentially take a knee while we spun up the supplies and the resources to make sure that no American would ever be denied the health care that you'd want any member of your family and mine to have. But the problem was, I believe, that Dr. Fauci ultimately aligned himself with many Democrat governors who took what were temporary policies and made them long-term policies in their state. And the American people love freedom.
CHUCK TODD:
These Democratic governors, in their mind, they were just trying to save lives. Do you accept that?
VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE:
Look, I – I never judge people's intentions, but I do judge their policies. And the truth is, we created a framework in those early days to ask for a pause in our economy so that we could make sure that our health care workers would not be lacking in the supplies and resources and masks and gowns that they would need to meet this moment, this unfurling pandemic, worst pandemic in a hundred years. But I must tell you that one of the things I'm proudest of is that our administration, as quickly as possible, by mid-April, laid out a framework to open up America again.
CHUCK TODD:
Would you like to see a federal ban on abortion?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I have to tell you, it was such a joy for me. When I was putting the finishing touches on this book to actually be able to reflect on the fact – the fact that, after 49 years, with three Supreme Court justices appointed in our administration, we gave the American people a new beginning for life. The Dobbs decision not just overturned Roe v. Wade, but it returned the question of abortion to the states and to the American people. And I celebrate that from really the depths of my heart. You know, I – when I was a young man, the most important decision I ever made was when I put my faith in Jesus Christ. I opened up the Bible. I read verses like, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you. And I set before you life and death, now choose life so that you and your children may live." I knew in that moment, a decade before I would arrive in Congress, that the cause of life had to be my cause. And I must tell you, Chuck, to have been able to champion life in the Congress and as governor, but to have been a part of an administration that gave the American people this new beginning for life is something I'll cherish the rest of my life.
CHUCK TODD:
Is that the most important achievement, in your mind, of the administration?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I truly believe the opportunity to restore the sanctity of life to the center of American law may be among the most consequential legacies of the Trump-Pence administration, if not the most consequential. But I would also say, with regard to your question, that when Senator Graham introduced legislation to establish a 15 week ban on abortion, I thought it was useful. If I'd still been a member of Congress I would have voted for it. It was useful in the sense of demonstrating that Democrats' position is the extreme position. The Democratic Party today supports abortion on demand up to the moment of birth, and taxpayer funding of abortion. But I recognize that this issue is likely going to be resolved one state at a time. Some states have already acted to advance the cause of life. And I've said to people, when the Dobbs decision was overturned, “We haven't come to the end, we've come to the end of the beginning.” And Chuck, it may take as many years to restore the sanctity of life to the center of American law in every state in this country as it took to overturn Roe vs. Wade. But as long as I have breath, I‘ll be on that cause.
CHUCK TODD:
I know you've got passion. You're a limited government guy. I know this. And you really are. Are you comfortable with the idea of essentially government-mandated pregnancy? Somebody doesn't want this child, doesn't want this pregnancy to go through. You're now advocating a law that essentially the government is ordering you to go through with this pregnancy. Are you comfortable with a government mandate like that? The folks in Kansas were not.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Our founding documents say we're endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights, and the first one mentioned is life. And I think government exists to protect life, particularly defenseless life. And I intend to be a part of this. But I think we have an opportunity, Chuck, to approach this debate in a new and in a renewed way. You know, when the Supreme Court took this issue away from the American people 49 years ago, there were strong dividing lines that have endured now for two generations. But now we have a political debate. And we have the opportunity not just to craft thoughtful protections for the unborn, but also to extend protections and support for women in crisis pregnancy and for newborns. I'd like to see us redouble our efforts to demonstrate the compassion of the American people. To live out the idea that there is no unwanted child, and that in the freest and most prosperous nation in the history of the world, we can make that the reality.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think the unborn have constitutional rights?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I believe in –
CHUCK TODD:
They don't in our law right now, but do you believe they should?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I believe in the right to life. And I believe –
CHUCK TODD:
Do you believe that an unborn fetus has a constitutional right?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Look, we are protected in this country from being denied life or liberty without due process of law. And I believe those protections should extend to the born and the unborn. But this is a long-term cause. And it'll be as much moral persuasion in America as political debates and battles.
CHUCK TODD:
Shouldn't that be where it is, though? Shouldn't it be moral persuasion and not government mandate?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I think – I really do believe now that it's been returned to the political process, Chuck, that we have an incredible opportunity to demonstrate the real heart and compassion of the American people in this cause, to persuade our neighbors and friends to the day that abortion is not only illegal, but it's unthinkable. And when that day comes, and we'll someday institute, in the laws of all 50 states, protections.
CHUCK TODD:
There are a lot of women uncomfortable with the idea that a politician will make this decision for them.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I understand that. I do. But I really do believe that restoring the sanctity of life to the center of law, in every state in this country, is at the very heart of achieving a boundless future for the American people.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Still ahead, our panel is here with their thoughts on my interview with Mike Pence and the new special counsel investigation into Donald Trump. Plus, our Meet the Press Minute looks back at how Ronald Reagan answered the question of how old was too old to serve as president?
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. The day after his granddaughter's wedding on the White House South Lawn, President Biden is celebrating an important event of his own today. It's his 80th birthday. Biden is now the oldest serving president in American history. It's a title previously held by Ronald Reagan. In today's Meet the Press Minute, we look back to 1974, when then-Governor Reagan was in his early sixties. He was asked whether his age would be a factor in a presidential run.
[START TAPE]
JAMES J. KILPATRICK:
You will be 63 years old on February 6th, and during the campaign period, of course, would be 65. Does age seem to you, realistically, to be a factor that would operate against your candidacy for president?
GOV. RONALD REAGAN:
Well, I think that's got to be a determination the people are going to make. Certainly, Jim, by the time of 1976, if it should be my decision that I am going to be involved in that race, and I think it's certainly too early to make that decision by a long way, the people will know my age and they'll make that determination. We have had presidents that have pretty much spanned adulthood as to their age, and it has not seemed to affect the people.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
To dig into the Meet the Press archives, scan the code on your screen right now. Visit NBCNews.com/MTP75. It's the website that is home to 75 of the biggest moments in Meet the Press history. When we come back, the panel.
CHUCK TODD:
We are back. Panel is here: Anna Palmer, co-founder of Punchbowl News; Peter Baker, chief White House correspondent for The New York Times -- he's also author of the book “The Divider” -- Brendan Buck, former adviser to Speakers Paul Ryan and John Boehner; and Kimberly Atkins Stohr, senior opinion writer for The Boston Globe. Peter, you wrote about the special counsel and sort of, almost the darned if you do, darned if you don't moment --
PETER BAKER:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
-- that Merrick Garland was in. You know, and you saw it with Mike Pence in my interview. There’s this -- there are a lot of Republicans that want to let Trump sort of dangle out there, but they're also not ready to jump on, jump on pushing him off either, just --
PETER BAKER:
Right. No, that's exactly right. Look, you're right. Garland had no choice. Probably under the rules as they are established, he felt that it was an obvious case for a special counsel. But the idea of a special counsel is to make it seem like politics is not involved. And, of course, that was never going to work. Of course, Trump was never going to let that be a nonpartisan figure. He immediately attacks the special counsel as a political, partisan witch hunter, the latest in a long stream, in his view. And therefore, we're right back where we started, which is that the investigation is seen through the lens of partisan politics.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Anna, it was one of those, I guess if Garland could've done this differently, it would've been -- had it been a special counsel from the beginning.
ANNA PALMER:
Right. Was the delay kind of an opening for Republicans in a lot of ways? It wasn't just Trump. We've seen a lot of Republicans in the Senate, in the House saying, "All right, now it's time to impeach Merrick Garland. Now, you know, there should be a special counsel for Hunter Biden." I'm just saying these are the partisan attacks that you're going to hear over and over again for the next several months.
BRENDAN BUCK:
They're going to do everything they can to undermine this process. And I will tell you, when I --
CHUCK TODD:
Who's "they" though?
BRENDAN BUCK:
House Republicans. Newly in the majority, newly with committee hearings that they can call --
CHUCK TODD:
Is that a good focus?
BRENDAN BUCK:
It's absolutely not. But I will tell you, when I was on the Hill working for Speaker Ryan, we spent an incredible amount of time behind the scenes trying to get our members not to undermine the Mueller investigation. They wanted to do things. They wanted to try to meddle in that. And we had to say, "Hard no. Like, we can't do this because this is important." I don't know that the current House of Representatives is set up to, to be that disciplined.
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
And I know that the DOJ and Merrick Garland want to keep things unpolitical. But I think that's one of the things that he should've thought about in making the decision, either to do it from the beginning. I think that he didn't need one at all. The regulations don't mandate this. He could have continued this investigation, and it should've gone a little faster.
CHUCK TODD:
Doesn't it feel like he is a character from the pre-Trump era?
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
Yes.
CHUCK TODD:
And that’s sort of like what Garland’s -- you know, whatever you think, he's just sort of, "Isn't this the way we're supposed to do it?"
PETER BAKER:
It’s the old fashioned --
CHUCK TODD:
And you're, like, "It's not the way --
PETER BAKER:
It's a new era.
CHUCK TODD:
-- in the Trump world," yeah.
PETER BAKER:
Right, right. A new era. But there is one thing that might be indicated here. Merrick Garland has made a threshold decision perhaps, that it is okay to charge a former president, or a presidential candidate, if the elements of the law are met, because otherwise, he wouldn't have bothered to appoint a special counsel. That's a pretty big step, if in fact that's what's going through his mind right now.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, the other big event this weekend was this Republican Jewish Coalition event. You know, Anna, it was interesting. Donald Trump, he, he ended up satelliting it in because I think he realized Ron DeSantis was stealing the show no matter what. But he gave this rambling answer about the midterms, correctly noting the impact of abortion, but he never said the word. Meanwhile, Mike Pence is here telling me it's the greatest achievement of the administration.
ANNA PALMER:
I mean, one of the biggest divides, right? You have Donald Trump, who was pro-choice. I mean, Mike Pence, ever since I've covered politics, this is very core to who he is. Clearly not afraid that the American public might not be in the same place that Mike Pence is. But that's one of the few distinguishing factors, right, when you look at the two of them. Mike Pence kind of twisting himself into a pretzel in this whole interview, where he didn't really want to say that, that the former president was wrong, that what happened on January 6th was wrong.
CHUCK TODD:
Brendan, he wants, he wants to run on the Trump administration more than Trump does.
BRENDAN BUCK:
Pence is running what seems to be leading up to a campaign that would make a lot of sense if Donald Trump wasn't still around. He's the natural next, next in line. "All the great things that we did. I'm separating myself from him a little bit." But he refuses to actually take on Donald Trump. In reality, you know, he's running for president. Donald Trump is going to be a candidate --
CHUCK TODD:
He's going to take him on.
BRENDAN BUCK:
Exactly.
CHUCK TODD:
Trump will take Pence on.
BRENDAN BUCK:
Exactly. And so we have a situation where, once again, you have Republicans sort of just hoping that he goes away, and unwilling to attack him. Donald Trump is going to attack Mike Pence. He's going to attack Ron DeSantis. And to think that you can just sit there and wait for him to implode I think is a little naive.
CHUCK TODD:
But is there a little bit of Trump fatigue? I feel like I'm sensing it --
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
I think there's more --
CHUCK TODD:
-- in the rank and file.
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
-- than a little bit. The midterms were evidence of that. But it's not fatigue among the people, like including Mike Pence, who stood right next to --
CHUCK TODD:
Well because -- because they're afraid of Trump's base.
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
Well, but it's an opportunity to say, "This is waning and we're going to break free, and we're going to take a different path." But instead, Mike Pence tried to excuse Trump for everything, other than trying to stop the certification of the election. It was -- "It was Fauci's fault that something, it was Mark Meadow's fault that he talked about disinfectant. It was someone else's fault. It was lawyers' fault that he --"
ANNA PALMER:
But where Mike Pence is, is very different, I think where you're seeing a lot of the Republican party saying, "That was, you know, a three-time loser." You have members --
CHUCK TODD:
Pence doesn't want to go there.
ANNA PALMER:
Not at all.
CHUCK TODD:
No.
ANNA PALMER:
I mean, it's pretty -- it’s stunning compared to where the rest of the Republicans are.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, he's self-aware in that who else was going to make him vice president? Ultimately, that's the issue he has. All right, guys. I have to go. Enjoy your Thanksgiving weekend. You guys are terrific. There's an unedited version of my Mike Pence interview, including approximately 30 minutes that we weren't able to air here at MeetThePress.com. Please take a look at it. That's all we have for today. Thanks for watching. Enjoy the Thanksgiving holiday. We'll be back next week. We don't bring leftovers. We'll be bringing real Meet the Press because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.