CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday: Mourning in America. Two mass shootings, two days apart -- at a Walmart in Virginia and a nightclub in Colorado. It's a disturbing ritual of grieving for the victims with both political parties disagreeing on how to fix the problem of gun violence.
PRES. BIDEN:
I’m going to try to get rid of assault weapons.
CHUCK TODD:
President Biden says he will push for a ban on assault-style weapons, while Republicans point to mental health, not guns, as the problem.
GOV. GLENN YOUNGKIN:
So much of it is really a moment to reflect on the state of mind of America and Virginia and this mental health crisis we know we are in the middle of.
CHUCK TODD:
I'll speak with Democratic Governor Jared Polis of Colorado. Plus, power shift: Republicans return to power in the House threatening to impeach the Homeland Security Secretary
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
He has lied to the American public. This investigation could lead to an impeachment inquiry.
CHUCK TODD:
Kevin McCarthy's path to becoming the next Speaker of the House faces pressure from his own members who want him to target the President and his cabinet officials. I'll speak with Republican Congressman James Comer of Kentucky, expected to be the next chair of the House Oversight Committee, who says he wants to investigate President Biden's son. And, stepping down:
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:Every day for all of those years, I’ve given it everything that I have, and I’ve never left anything on the field.
CHUCK TODD:
Dr. Anthony Fauci, the Chief Medical Adviser to President Joe Biden and the nation's top infectious disease expert, is here to talk about the pandemic and his legacy as he steps down from his role next month. Joining me for insight and analysis are: USA Today Washington Bureau Chief Susan Page; María Teresa Kumar, President of Voto Latino; Republican political consultant Matt Gorman and Reid Wilson, founder and editor in chief of Pluribus News. Welcome to Sunday, it's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning, Americans found themselves in a better place this Thanksgiving week, grieving for the lives lost in multiple mass shootings. Colorado Springs, five people were killed at an LGBTQ night club. The alleged shooter is facing possible hate crime charges on top of the five counts of first degree murder. Two days later in Chesapeake, Virginia, six people were killed at a Walmart by a disgruntled employee who turned the gun on himself. While the victims are new, the questions that these massacres spark are not new. And if there is a single issue that represents this stark red-blue divide in this country, it's evident in how each side responds to these massacres. Democrats stressed the urgency for action and called for stricter gun laws.
[START TAPE]
JOE BIDEN:
The idea we still allow semi automatic weapons to be purchased is sick. Sick. It has no, no social redeeming value. None. Not a single solitary rationale for it. It's your property.
REPORTER:
Can you do anything about gun laws during the lame duck?
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I'm going to try.
REPORTER:
What will you try to do?
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I will try to get rid of assault weapons.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Republicans condemned the violence but blamed the issue of mental health, not guns.
[START TAPE]
GOV. GLENN YOUNGKIN:
We see again in the Commonwealth and in Colorado and in Idaho, these just stark reminders of senseless violent crime. And so much of it is really a moment to reflect on the state of mind of America and Virginia and this mental health crisis that we know we are in the middle of.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD
The fact is we do have a mental health crisis in this country. Out of the over 40,000 deaths from gun violence this year, over half of them were due to suicide. But that doesn't mean that we don't also have a gun issue in this country as well. We are the only country in the world with significantly more guns than people and a culture that fiercely resists any perceived restrictions on the right to bear arms, which is enshrined in our Constitution. And perhaps the main contributing factor to the now commonplace lack of response from Washington is the fact that voters are not demanding a response. Just 11% of voters picked gun policy as the issue that mattered most to them in casting their vote in this month's midterm elections. And in fact, in seven of our nine top Senate battleground states, that percentage was even smaller of voters who picked guns as their top issue. Whether they're numb, traumatized, cynical, or just have other issues affecting their daily life more, the reality is politicians respond to the public and until voters make this issue a priority, it is unlikely Washington. Well, joining me now is Jared Polis. He's the Democratic governor of Colorado. It is a state that has seen its share of gun violence in every aspect of daily life. Just consider this list of Colorado’s deadliest mass shootings. It reminds Americans that no place is safe -- whether it's at school: Columbine; whether it’s at the movies in Aurora; whether it's simply grocery shopping in Boulder; or whether it’s unwinding at a nightclub in Colorado Springs. Governor Polis, welcome back to Meet the Press.
GOV. JARED POLIS:
Good morning, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
How does, how do you avoid a wash, rinse, repeat cycle here? That we’ve done this – you and I have had this conversation before. I've done a version of this show before. How do we stop it?
GOV. JARED POLIS:
Yeah. Sadly, you've had to do too many versions of this show, Chuck. And first and foremost, our heart goes out to the five lives that were lost at the Club Q shooting. I've spent much of the last week talking to the victims, the survivors, thanking the heroes who acted boldly. The losses could have been worse. I think what you really need to do if you're serious about reducing these kinds of gun violence events and mass violence events is try to take the best ideas from all sides that work. Of course, it's about mental health. Of course, it's about gun policy. Of course, it's about anti-LGBTQ rhetoric. It's about all these things. We need to, as a society, as political leaders, walk and chew gum at the same time. We need to look at all the evidence and the facts and try to make decisions that lead to a safer country.
CHUCK TODD:
You, one of the responses you did after – I want to get my events right, I believe it was after the Boulder shooting – that's when the state of Colorado implemented a red flag law. I think you believe here if there were better understanding of how the red flag law worked, perhaps this shooter is prevented from having a gun at the time he wants to do his massacre. Is that your, is that your sense?
GOV. JARED POLIS:
This looks like this would have been a good instance for the use of Colorado's new red flag law, which has been used several hundred times, but could have been used even more to prevent these kinds of tragic events, or more often to prevent self-harm or suicide. What this is, Chuck, is it’s – and a number of states have it – it's a legal way to temporarily remove access to someone's guns while they're experiencing a mental health crisis. And that can be reported usually by a parent, a loved one, or by a sheriff department or law enforcement. And we need to make sure that that's more available and easier when somebody's an immediate threat. And there were signs in this troubled person's past that he would have been the threat. It could have instigated our red flag law to remove him from having custody over his weapons while he's experiencing that mental health crisis. So those kinds of tools are data-driven. They work. And they can reduce suicide. And from time to time, they can even reduce the likelihood of these kinds of horrific events.
CHUCK TODD:
You’re asking – I guess the question I have with the red flag laws: Is this the best law you can come up with because of the current circumstances we live in politically, or is this a good idea, no matter the current state of politics? And I say this because you really are asking people to do something that isn't comfortable, which is insert themselves into somebody else's life.
GOV. JARED POLIS:
No, it's never comfortable. And that's why you want to look at the ability of law enforcement potentially expanding that to DAs to be able to do this, too. But it's certainly better than the alternative of doing nothing or having no tools and watching somebody at risk sadly take their own life or the life of others. So, yes. It's called an extreme risk protection order. It works. Here's what it is, Chuck. You know, when somebody's having a mental health crisis and is an immediate danger to themselves or others, they can be temporarily detained – you know, 24-hour holds or 72-hour holds. But then, the minute that they're released, the minute they're not an immediate danger to themselves or others – they could still be a danger to themselves or others, just not that immediate danger to the self or others – this triggers another way to make sure that they don't have access to something that could turn that feeling they have toward self-destruction or a mental health issue into a tragedy.
CHUCK TODD:
Where would you like to go with the next round of laws? Do you think this has to come from the federal level? Is there anything more the state of Colorado can do, in your mind?
GOV. JARED POLIS:
Well, we're certainly going to take a hard look at why red flag law wasn't used in this case and the case of the King Soopers shooter, what can be used to better publicize, make available, add different parties to make sure that it's used when it should be used. But of course, the answer needs to be national, as well. We have universal background checks in Colorado. Some of our neighboring states don't even have background checks. So somebody who's a convicted felon in Colorado, unable to legally purchase a gun, can drive an hour or two, buy a weapon, buy five weapons at an open-air gun show and return to our state. So, yes, it should be looked at federally. But that doesn't mean to the exclusion of mental health issues, of looking at the rhetoric that's used in the political realm and how that can instigate these acts of violence – all of these are very valid issues that we really need to look at or self-examine as a society to try to remedy.
CHUCK TODD:
I was just going to say when you look at the Club Q shooting, you can't help but say, "Boy, how much of this mental health problem with this person was triggered by hateful rhetoric online? And how much of this is easy access to a weapon while you're also in a mentally unstable place?"
GOV. JARED POLIS:
Yeah, and I just encourage policy makers to look at all of the above. And the particulars of this case will emerge. We'll find what that balance was. But a different case, the balance could be different, right? I mean, we know that when people are saying incendiary things, somebody who's not well-balanced can hear those things and think that what they're doing is heroic when it's actually a horrific crime that kills innocent people. So we really need to be mindful of the rhetoric, try to heal people, bring people together, never cast one group of Americans against another.
CHUCK TODD:
Would you pursue what President Biden wants to pursue, which is an assault weapons ban, essentially, that would put the AR-15, I guess, out of individual circulation?
GOV. JARED POLIS:
Well, look, in this case, I think he had two guns. I think it's been reported one of the weapons was a ghost weapon, might not have even had a serial number or been purchased legally. In Colorado, we have a magazine limit: 15, 15 bullets, no more than 15 bullets in a magazine. So effectively, it reduces the ability of high-powered weapons to do harm. So, look, I think all of these things, including the red flag law and expanding its use, should really be looked at. But, again, it's not just about gun policy. Yes, that should be on the table to discuss in a thoughtful, rational way. But we also need to talk about mental health. And we need to talk about the divisive rhetoric that even some people who aspire to positions of leadership in our country unfortunately use almost every day.
CHUCK TODD:
You didn't quite say it. Would you support, if you were still in Congress, would you vote for an assault weapons ban?
GOV. JARED POLIS:
I was generally supportive of national efforts towards closing the gun show loophole, towards having a conversation about which type of weapons were – as you know, fully automatic weapons already effectively banned. We shouldn't say banned – there's a way to get a federal license to operate one. But if you're talking about a similar process where you need an additional license or background check for some of the most high-powered weapons, I did support that as a member of Congress.
CHUCK TODD:
Gotcha.
GOV. JARED POLIS:
That's the kind of thing that we should be looking at nationally, but not to the exclusion of all these other things that we're talking about, which can be important, as well.
CHUCK TODD:
So you believe there should be classifications of certain types of weapons. Governor Jared Polis, Democratic from Colorado, I really appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us. Thank you.
GOV. JARED POLIS:
Always a pleasure, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Joining me now is Congressman James Comer of Kentucky. He's currently the ranking member on House Oversight, and he's hoping to become the next chair of the Oversight Committee in the next Congress. Congressman Comer has represented Kentucky's 1st district, home to Paducah, for those of wondering, since 2016. And this is his first time joining the program. Congressman Comer, welcome to Meet the Press, sir.
REP. JAMES COMER:
Good morning, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, I wanted to talk to you about what your agenda's going to be in a couple months. But I want to ask you on guns – I know what your personal position is here – is there any gun law that you'd like to see stricter when it comes to the purchases of weapons?
REP. JAMES COMER:
I mean, we already have many gun laws on the books. If passing a bill would simply end gun violence, then I think you would have overwhelming support in Congress for that. That's like saying Congress could pass a bill that reduced inflation; that didn't reduce inflation. So you know, passing bills doesn't solve the problems. We have, as Governor Youngkin said, a mental health crisis in America. And I think there's overwhelming bipartisan support to fund better mental health programs, and try to increase communication between law enforcement agencies and social services groups to try to better identify these troubled people before they commit crimes.
CHUCK TODD:
How would you suggest we go about preventing mentally unstable folks from purchasing guns if we don't have a waiting period, or don't have certain classifications for certain weapons? Is there a way to do this?
REP. JAMES COMER:
Well, that's something that Congress is, I'm sure, going to discuss. It's been discussed the entire six years I've been in Congress. It's very difficult. You know, the number one priority with respect to crime in America for Republicans is going to be the fentanyl crisis. We talk about terrible gun crimes in America, but we've had over 100,000 deaths because of fentanyl pouring across our border, which is unsecured right now. That's going to be the top priority for Republicans come January.
CHUCK TODD:
I understand that, but these massacres, nobody wants to see them. I mean, it does feel as if we talk about the individual freedom of somebody to be able to bear – have the right to bear arms; people want to have the individual freedom to shop at Walmart without fear of getting shot. So I guess, is there – I know what your position is – any room to allow – had we had a waiting period with the Walmart shooter, it's possible three days, he might've calmed down or we might've found something troubling in his past, and he doesn't get the weapon.
REP. JAMES COMER:
Well Chuck, you talk about this a lot on Meet the Press, but when you look at cities that have the most strict gun laws, like Washington DC, Chicago, these are the cities with the highest rates of crimes committed with guns. So you know, just simply passing more bills isn't going to solve the problem. I think we need to get serious about law enforcement, we need to invest in more law enforcement, and again, we need to invest in mental health and try to improve communication between our social agencies, as well as our law enforcement.
CHUCK TODD:
Right. I've heard this talking point about gun laws in cities, but I don't know if you realize this, the states that have the most gun laws have the least amount of per capita gun crime, and the states with the least amount of gun laws seem to have the most I'm showing it here on screen, I don't know if you can see it here. So there is a correlation. If you have more gun laws on the books as a state, you have fewer gun-related crimes – gun-related deaths. That has been proven statistically.
REP. JAMES COMER:
Well, in places like rural America where just about every other household exercises their Second Amendment rights, there aren't a lot of crimes in these areas. And I think one reason is because potential criminals know that these people are exercising their Second Amendment rights. So this is something that's indoctrinated in our Constitution, this is something that Republicans hold, you know, close. And we're going to continue to protect our Second Amendment rights, but while at the same time we want to get serious about crime in America, the fentanyl crisis, as well as the looting that's taking place in cities. We believe that we need more law enforcement, and we need to respect the law enforcement. We need to have prosecutors that are serious about prosecuting and not letting people off in the name of criminal justice. So these are issues that are going to be debated early on in the new Republican majority.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. Speaking of the Republican majority, if Kevin McCarthy can't get 218 votes to be Speaker, who can? And I know you're a supporter of Kevin McCarthy. What do you tell your colleagues that are denying him their support right now?
REP. JAMES COMER:
Well, I think we have a lot of time between now and January the 3rd. I'm of the opinion that on January 3rd we'll come together as a conference and elect Kevin McCarthy to be Speaker of the House. I think this is something that is ongoing. There are certainly five to eight members that have said they're leaning towards voting no against Kevin McCarthy. They’re, you know, they have a right to support whoever they want. They have their opinions, they have their goals in the conference. Many of them are on my committee, I'm friends with them. But I'm hopeful at the end of the day that we will come together as a conference and elect Kevin. You know, we had an election between Kevin McCarthy and my friend, Andy Biggs, and Kevin McCarthy won by nearly 200 votes. So it’s – there's overwhelming support for Kevin McCarthy in our conference.
CHUCK TODD:
I was just going to say, what is the most credible critique of Kevin McCarthy that you think is fair from them, that they're making?
REP. JAMES COMER:
Well, certainly there's been instances in the past that certain Republicans' voices weren't heard in the conference. But at the end of the day, we need to give Kevin a chance. You know, I think a lot of these members are frustrated because of things that Paul Ryan did, or things that John Boehner did. Kevin McCarthy's never had a chance to be Speaker. We had an election, we had a lot of debate in-conference, and you know, in the end Kevin McCarthy was the overwhelming winner, and I'm hopeful that our conference will come together. And I believe we will on January 3rd, and make Kevin McCarthy the next Republican Speaker of the House.
CHUCK TODD:
Assuming you're chairman of the Oversight Committee, if you have one investigation you get to focus on, if there's just one – I know you have a bunch you want to do – what's the one?
REP. JAMES COMER:
Well, we're going to investigate between 40 and 50 different things. We have the capacity. We'll have 25 members on the committee, and we're going to have a staff close to 70. So we have the ability to investigate a lot of things. And – and let's just face it, Chuck, over the past two years the Democrats on the House Oversight Committee haven't investigated anything in this administration. They've investigated the Washington Commanders football team, we've had several hearings on social issues that the Oversight Committee has absolutely nothing to do with, issues like abortion. We believe that there have been hundreds of billions, if not trillions of dollars wasted over the past three years, so that spans two administrations, in the name of Covid. We want to have hearings on that. We want to try to determine what happened with the fraudulent unemployment insurance funds, the fraudulent PPP loan funds, some of this money that's being spent for state and local governments in the Covid stimulus money. So these are things that are going to be priorities for us as a committee: waste, fraud, abuse, and mismanagement. That's going to be the goal of the House Oversight Committee.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, before I let you go, as a member of the Republican Party, Donald Trump in many cases is seen as the leader of the party. He was dining with a known white supremacist, and certainly somebody who traffics in anti-Semitic rhetoric, referring to Ye, formerly known as Kanye West, and this Nick Fuentes person. I'm just curious, do you think it was a mistake for the former president to do that?
REP. JAMES COMER:
Well, he certainly needs better judgment in who he dines with. I know that he's issued a statement and said he didn't know who those people were. But at any rate, you know, my focus is going to be on investigating the current administration as the next chairman of the House Oversight Committee, and trying to get a handle on the massive amounts of waste, fraud, and abuse in our federal government. And I think that's where the American people want us to be, and that's where Republicans in the majority are going to be focused.
CHUCK TODD:
I understand thinking he should have better judgment. I assume you condemn this, like you would not take a meeting with this person?
REP. JAMES COMER:
I would not take a meeting with that person, no. I wouldn't take a meeting with Kanye West either, but that's – that’s my opinion.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, James Comer, Republican from Kentucky, the next chair of the House Oversight Committee. And I imagine we'll have a lot more to talk about on those investigations as the time moves on. Thank you for coming on and sharing your perspective, sir.
REP. JAMES COMER:
Thanks for having me on.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, his leadership in the coronavirus pandemic made him both a hero and a villain. He's heard the investigations that are going to start on Covid. Coming up, Dr. Fauci is here to reflect on his legacy as he is set to step down from his role as the nation's top infectious disease doctor.
CHUCK TODD:
After 54 years, Dr. Anthony Fauci is stepping down from the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases next month. Throughout the years he's guided the country's response to the AIDS crisis, Ebola, and, of course, Covid-19, where he became a fixture in American households. And even on this show, he appeared nearly 20 times during the pandemic. I used to joke he was our co-host. His work to encourage vaccinations likely saved countless lives. But he was also villainized by many on the right that opposed the shutdowns and mandates meant to curb the virus's spread and used Dr. Fauci as the symbol of their attacks. And joining me now is Dr. Anthony Fauci. Dr. Fauci, it's good to see you in person.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Thank you very much, Chuck --
CHUCK TODD:
I think this is the first time we’ve been in person since the start --
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Yes, exactly --
CHUCK TODD:
-- of this pandemic --
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Indeed.
CHUCK TODD:
And I think we -- none of us knew where we were going on -- I want to begin by seeing what you -- insight you have on what's going on in China. Let me just put up the headlines for the audience here. They're seeing some protests. "Unrest over Covid lockdowns," is the headline in the New York Times. "Fear of quarantine camps is shutting down Beijing." "China's Covid protests grow after an apartment blaze killed 10." I mean, you're seeing things that we saw in this country when people didn't like how Covid response -- What is going on in China, and why do they seem to be in a worse place than anyone else in the world?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well, their approach has been very, very severe and rather draconian in the kinds of shutdowns without a seeming purpose. I mean, if you're having a situation, if you can recall, you know, almost three years ago when we were having our hospitals overrun, you remember the situation in New York City, you had to do something immediately to shut down that flow. So remember we were talking about flattening the curve and the social distancing and restrictions and shutdown, which was never really complete, is done for a temporary period of time for the purpose of regrouping, getting more personal protective equipment, getting people vaccinated. It seems that in China it was just a very, very strict extraordinary lockdown where you lock people in the house but without any seemingly endgame to it. If the endgame was to, "Let's get everybody vaccinated including and particularly the vulnerable," then you could see how a temporary lockdown like that -- but they went into a prolonged lockdown without any seeming purpose or end game to it, which is – really doesn't make public health sense.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you understand their vaccination strategy?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
You know, in many respects, Chuck, it baffles me. I mean, they can --
CHUCK TODD:
They refuse outside vaccines, right?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Yeah --
CHUCK TODD:
They only use their own, correct?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Yeah, which clearly, with all due respect, was not particularly effective at all compared to any of a number of the vaccines that were available. But also, interestingly, they did not, for reasons that I don't fully appreciate, protect the elderly by making sure the elderly got vaccinated. So if you look at the prevalence of vaccinations among the elderly, that it was almost counterproductive, the people you really needed to protect were not getting protected.
CHUCK TODD:
It's almost as if it was a strategy.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well --
CHUCK TODD:
I mean, I hate to be putting it in those terms, but an authoritative regime like that, it almost looked like a strategy not a mistake.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well, I don't know what it was. But it certainly, from a public health standpoint, didn't make much sense.
CHUCK TODD:
Now there would be one theory as to why is the Chinese government acting so peculiar and weird, and they still have not come clean on what they can tell us about the start of this pandemic, have they?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Yeah. Yeah. That is true. And that is, in some respects, and I don't mean this in a broad pejorative way, but in anything that we've had to do over decades, whether it's bird flu, H5N1, H7N9, or the original SARS in 2002, even when there's nothing to hide they act in a suspicious, non-transparent way just probably because they don't want to make it look like there's a blame. When the reality is, if something evolves in your country, it’s not to blame but let's find out what went on so we can be transparent about it and prevent it for the next time happening.
CHUCK TODD:
What can we do to once and for all, sort of, figure out whether the lab leak is a viable theory?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well, the only thing that can be done is to have an open, transparent, interaction with their scientists and our scientists, get in there, look at the epidemiology, look at what went on there, look at what happened earlier on, maybe a month or so earlier. That has not been at all transparent enough for us to feel comfortable about it.
CHUCK TODD:
Where are you on this now? I mean, everybody's always curious, "Where is Fauci on the lab leak theory?"
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Yeah. I have a completely open mind about that, despite people saying that I don't. I have a totally open mind about that. But if you look at the preponderance of evidence that has been accumulated by international group of highly respected evolutionary virologists, they feel -- and they've written peer-reviewed papers on that -- that the evidence strongly points to this being a natural occurrence of a jumping of a virus from a bat to an animal species to human. Hasn't been definitively proven, but the evidence on that is pretty strong. Having said that, we still all have to keep an open mind as to what the origin is.
CHUCK TODD:
Is this country ready for another pandemic? And are we still in the one we have not --
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Yeah --
CHUCK TODD:
-- that we've been talking about?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well, we certainly are still in it. I think you just need to look at the numbers. We're still having between 300 and 400 deaths per day. So I think the idea that, "Forget it, this is over," it isn't. We're going into the winter right now. We have the wherewithal to mitigate against another surge. It's up to us to make sure that doesn't happen. And that's the thing that's very frustrating, Chuck, among public health officials, including myself. We have an updated vaccine booster that we want to do, but the uptake of that is, you know, less than 15%. It's somewhere between 11% and 15%. We've got to do better than that.
CHUCK TODD:
I asked the Vice -- former Vice President Mike Pence, who you worked quite closely with during the start of this Covid pandemic, sort of, how you became so vilified on the right. Here was his answer to me.
[START TAPE]
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
The problem was, I believe, that Dr. Fauci ultimately aligned himself with many Democrat governors who took what were temporary policies and made them long-term policies in their state. And the American people love freedom.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
What's your response?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well I have -- I respect the former vice president. We got along very well in the White House. But I disagree with him. I don't align myself with anybody, Chuck. I'm a physician. I'm a scientist. I'm a public health person. It doesn't matter if you're a Democrat or Republican, I go by the public health principles. Those are the recommendations that I made then during the Trump administration and the recommendations I make now during the Biden administration based on good public health principles. So I'd have to respectfully disagree with the former vice president.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, people that don't know your legacy, you know, during the AIDS crisis you were vilified by many then, and over time people sort of understood what your role was and what it wasn't. What do you feel like your legacy is going to be? How do you feel like history is going to treat your time --
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Well, just --
CHUCK TODD:
-- of public service --
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
-- very briefly, the so-called vilification with the AIDS activists was entirely --
CHUCK TODD:
Totally different --
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
-- apples and oranges different --
CHUCK TODD:
And I know it is --
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
-- different.
CHUCK TODD:
-- But my point is you’ve been -- you've been the target before from --
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Of course --
CHUCK TODD:
-- different perspectives.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Because I have found myself through, you know, just circumstances being in the middle of some public health crises that had a great deal of impact on the American and global public. So I would think that if people really look at history and what we did, what we did with the activists back then, how we became from adversaries to collaborators and people who have made things happen in a very positive way, I hope to be remembered for what I've tried to do, just bring science and medicine and public health principles to very serious crises that we've had. And as I've said before, I've given it everything I have to do that, back from the 40 years ago with HIV to the current situation with Covid, with Ebola and Zika and everything else in the middle.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, the reason we kept having you on is you speak English. You don't speak scientist, which is always, I think, very helpful, having clear -- a clear way of communicating. Do you think our politics is so divisive, though, that somebody in your position just can't succeed anymore?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
I'm very troubled by that, Chuck, because through all the crises I've been through I've never seen the intensity of the divisiveness now. And if you look at public health principles, it just doesn't make any sense how you could have a divisiveness, where ideological principles or ideological bents have people make decisions that have impact on their lives and the lives of their family, how you could have red states be under-vaccinated and blue states be well-vaccinated and the deaths among Republicans versus Democrats are dramatic. If you look at the curve, it's tragic. You know, as I've said before, as a public health official, I don't want to see anybody suffer and die from Covid. I don't care if you're a far-right Republican or a far-left Democrat, everybody deserves to have the safety of good public health. And that's not happening.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, I'm glad we have the tools. Dr. Fauci, thank you for your public service.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Thank you very much, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Thank you for being here.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
Good to be with you.
CHUCK TODD:
Up next, the panel is here. So if Kevin McCarthy doesn't have the votes to be the next speaker, who the heck does?
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Panel is here: Susan Page, Washington bureau chief for “USA Today”; Reid Wilson's the founder and editor-in-chief of “Pluribus News”, focusing on state legislatures, which seem to matter more and more these days; Republican political consultant Matt Gorman; and María Teresa Kumar, president of Voto Latino. I want to start with my conversation with James Comer. Susan, I think what's interesting is that, he was, you know, when I asked him the question, "If not McCarthy, who," and it sounds like that's the question he's trying to ask all of his friends who are in that caucus, "If not Kevin McCarthy?"
SUSAN PAGE:
He made it clear McCarthy does not now have the votes to become speaker. He said five to eight votes potentially against him. He said he was hopeful that McCarthy would win. That's not a prediction. That's not a flat and confident prediction that he will win. The fact is Kevin McCarthy does not now have the votes to be elected speaker. That doesn't mean he won't get them, but if he gets them he'll get them by making concessions that he will have to live with for the next two years.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me show you one, Reid. This was Kevin McCarthy in October on the issue of impeachment. Let me put it up on screen here. "I think the country doesn't like impeachment used for political purposes at all." Again, this is to Punchbowl News on October of 2022. Now let me show you a quote from last week. "If Secretary Mayorkas does not resign, House Republicans will investigate every order, every action, and every failure will determine whether we can begin impeachment inquiry." Sounds like he needs votes for speaker.
REID WILSON:
The Freedom Caucus right now doesn't have a specific beef with Kevin McCarthy. All of the concessions that they're looking for are about future fights. And so what they are trying to extract, right, are the, essentially is the rope that would then be used to hang himself, if he the speakership, if he doesn't kowtow to their whims. And I think this is a part of it. This is sort of the political nightmare that McCarthy has. He is within reach of the goal that he has chased for his entire career, and yet it could be so short-lived. If he's not either in service to the Freedom Caucus or in an election if the House Republicans become Joe Biden's bad guy, they, you know, this could be an extremely short lived majority.
CHUCK TODD:
And, Matt Gorman, I want to put up a list of people. You worked at the NRCC, and you've worked at the NRC, places that have to re-elect usually people in swing districts. Let me show you the 17 new Republicans members of Congress who represent districts that voted for Joe Biden. By the way, every one of these folks reside in a state that Joe Biden carried, except for Don Bacon, who resides in a congressional district that Joe Biden actually got an electoral votes for. The point is these are 17 votes, these are, these are just as potentially important as any Freedom Caucus voter, right?
MATT GORMAN:
And you even have Don Bacon come out, I think there might have been one other person, saying, "I am only voting for Kevin McCarthy. So get your act together, guys and"--
CHUCK TODD:
There is no other option, yeah.
MATT GORMAN:
No, look, and I think also with oversight too they've started laying some groundwork being like, "Wait a minute. We are going to D.C. to do other things not just investigate full time." I think that provides a check as well. One thing I will also say--
CHUCK TODD:
By the way, Comer never mentioned the word "Hunter Biden." And I asked him what his priorities are. You know, and, look, this was one of those cases where I wanted to see what he would say because I think it was important what he was going to say to an audience that's not a partisan audience, it's more of a bipartisan audience, and lo and behold, no Hunter Biden.
MATT GORMAN:
I think one issue when it comes to oversight that will get folks on the Freedom Caucus but also these folks in Biden states will be the origins of COVID. And not making it personal but being like, "Look, how do we prevent another global pandemic," and to your point about China, "What are they covering up?" You will never ever, ever lose voters--
CHUCK TODD:
Look at Dr. Fauci--
MATT GORMAN:
--by taking on China--
CHUCK TODD:
He's ready to have these same conversations. I think you're not wrong on this that that is a more unifying place to start--
MATT GORMAN:
Absolutely--
CHUCK TODD:
--than someplace else.
MARÍA TERESA KUMAR:
So I think one of the biggest challenges with Kevin McCarthy is that his initial reaction of the insurrection was wrong. The fact that you shouldn't be impeaching is wrong. And then he basically goes back and says but, "How do I get power?" And the interesting thing about Kevin McCarthy is that he's a politician first. He's not a policy guy. And the people here, they are politicians first. So I think that this is all basically doing a horse ride, trying to figure out, "Who is, what are the concessions that we can get in trading whatever you want for speakership?" At the end of the day what we're going to see out of the Republican-controlled Congress is very much, yes, these investigations, but it's all machinations behind the curtain, things that people in the American public don't understand. And it's all, "How do we control the ways and means? How do we actually control the mechanics of legislation?" And that has long-term effects that we will feel later.
CHUCK TODD:
Susan, the other thing, and I could sort of sense the sort of discomfort when I asked Congressman Comer about this Nick Fuentes, this white supremacist, the anti-Semite, Kanye West, who goes and has dinner with Donald Trump, the Freedom Caucus and James Comer's constituents are, you know, they're Trump people, but it's an uncomfortable place to be. And I think the last thing he would want is his investigations to get wrapped up in Trump.
SUSAN PAGE:
Yeah. His comment was interesting because he said, "He should've shown better judgment." You know, in Trump world that is pretty fierce criticism for somebody's who's-- aligned--
CHUCK TODD:
Yes--
SUSAN PAGE:
--with Trump--
CHUCK TODD:
That's considered, "Whoa. Wow, he really singed him."
SUSAN PAGE:
But, you know what? I think what you see with Republican voters in the midterms, and with more and more Republican officials, is a desire for Trumpism but less of a desire for Trump. I mean, he's remade the Republican Party. They're going to be following in his footsteps regardless of who the next nominee is. But Trump himself has become less electable, more controversial, and more looking back as opposed to forward--
CHUCK TODD:
And, where’s the, I thought I would see some more proactive condemnation. This was an opportunity for some Republicans to sort of kick him while he was down and they didn't.
REID WILSON:
Well, and, I mean, to Susan's point, I think that the party has been so remade in the image of Donald Trump that we're seeing Trump 2.0 everywhere. We're seeing it in Florida with Ron DeSantis. We're seeing it in Texas with Governor Greg Abbott, to a degree in Arizona with--
CHUCK TODD:
But none of them--
REID WILSON:
--Governor--
CHUCK TODD:
--meet with white supremacists or Kanye West, right? Is that the big difference?
REID WILSON:
This is the 2.0 part. This is the part that is the improvement, if I can, if I can use that word. But these are the candidates who are honing themselves for a 2024 election.
MATT GORMAN:
Yeah. No, what I think of it: The opposite of hate is not love; the opposite of love is indifference. This helps make I think a lot of the party indifferent to Trump now.
CHUCK TODD:
Indifference is actually the worst thing for him--
MATT GORMAN:
Yeah.
SUSAN PAGE:
That's exactly right.
CHUCK TODD:
The best way to torture him, not care. Before we go to break I want to share with you the Meet The Press minute that we're looking at because it's about the debate over gun control. It's a debate we're going to have here in a few minutes. But it shows you how this gun control debate has shifted a bit over time, at least when it comes to how each party has approached the issue. This is what Pennsylvania Republican governor, Raymond Shafer said when asked about the issue on this program 54 years ago. It was still less than two weeks after Bobby Kennedy was killed.
[START TAPE]
GOVERNOR RAYMOND SHAFER:
What we're attempting to do is to have a strong gun control legislation. We want to have it at both the federal and the state level. And one of the ways that we can do, it's already been outlined about having a waiting period to investigate individuals who want guns to make sure that they are proper persons to have them. We don't want to restrict the use of guns by law-abiding citizens. But as Mr. Spivak has already pointed out, we register cars, and I see nothing wrong with registering guns.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Data Download time. It's been over two weeks since voters cast their ballots in the midterms. So how high was turnout? States are finishing their count, and we're getting a clearer picture of the full results, and we're trying to figure out: Was turnout truly up or down from the record turnout of the 2018 midterm? The answer, as it so often is in politics, is It depends. Overall turnout was down from 2018. Remember, 2018 was the highest midterm turnout in nearly 100 years. 2022 nearly matched it. But still, it was a bit down. And it was a bit down in some interesting places. Look, some of this is not surprising. The big drop-offs in these states all have to do with the lack of competitive statewide races. In fact, Mississippi, New Jersey and West Virginia all had competitive Senate races in 2018. None of them, no Senate races were on the ballot. That explains that. North Dakota and Tennessee had statewide blowouts. Now, the other places where we saw a drop off was in the big four states. Three of the four really didn't have very competitive statewide races, and even New York only got competitive at the end. Turnout was down in all four of those places. And in fact, 25% of the decline from the 2018 to 2022 turnout all came from the nearly 2 million fewer voters that there were in the big four states. Now, turnout was up from 2018 in a lot of places that were extraordinarily competitive. Look at the highest here in the top five. Four of the five are essentially in our 2020-2024 battleground states for the presidency: New Hampshire, Arizona, Pennsylvania and Michigan. All a lot of money spent, very competitive races and very high turnout. Now, you would assume that would have meant turnout was up across the board in these states. Look at this. Here you had Michigan and Pennsylvania, higher turnout in 2018 overall. But in the urban areas —Wayne County is Detroit; Philadelphia County is Philadelphia— turnout was down. So while it did help Democrats overall, they have a bit of a yellow flag when it comes to urban turnout. When we come back, we're going to look at the gun control debate. Has anything changed after the midterms?
CHUCK TODD:
And we're back with our panel. Guns: wash, rinse, repeat. Dividing lines are the same. My thesis is that there actually isn’t voters who are pushing politicians to do more. If there were, they'd do more. Fair?
MARÍA TERESA KUMAR:
No, I think that there is a sentiment among the majority of Americans, that they do want reasonable gun laws. But there is a sliver of individuals that are extreme that are constantly participating in voting. I was at the White House then the president signed that legislation, the very first modernized gun legislation in 35 years. It was the saddest ceremony, Chuck, because they were celebrating because they had lost loved ones. But if you go to the states, you actually see areas where there are possibilities, California being the biggest example. One of the things that Governor Newsom has been able to do is actually modernize a lot of this type of gun reform, and it has an impact. California has one of the lowest gun rates in the whole country as a result, and so it's like, where is the will –
CHUCK TODD:
Well–
MARÍA TERESA KUMAR:
– at the end of the day?
CHUCK TODD:
--it is sort of so divided. Let me put up a poll, a result from the exit polls, "Should gun laws be more strict, less strict?" A majority want to see them more strict. But when you look at the breakdown by party, right, those that want it more strict, 76% of them voted Democratic. Those that didn't want more strict, 88% of them voted Republican. I mean, Matt Gorman, can you identify the Republican that's lost because they didn't have a gun control position?
MATT GORMAN:
You know, when we talk about voters clamoring for it, I would say it was a different sentiment over the summer. And I think that's what might have propelled, that, you know, the first gun reform bill where you have Mitch McConnell and Chris Murphy in an election year voting for this bill.
CHUCK TODD:
That tells you a little something --
MATT GORMAN:
It tells you a little something.
CHUCK TODD:
– that it's moved --
MATT GORMAN:
Yes, exactly. And, you know, from a political standpoint I think it did diffuse the issue, to your point, over the midterms. Now, I think among Republicans now there's not as much appetite. Set aside the fact there's a Republican House coming in. I think the fact that it was such a heavy lift, and I think Republicans are going to want to see how the red flag laws in the states play out and give it a little more time.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, you focus on the states a lot with your new publication, and it's driving so much of this conversation. Are states having a more nuanced debate than own national legislature?
REID WILSON:
No, they're having the same debates. But because states are so divided now and the majority of states are controlled by one party, we're seeing action, on on --
CHUCK TODD:
So you'll see either --
REID WILSON:
– in a lot of ways.
CHUCK TODD:
– a blue version of action or a red --
REID WILSON:
Yes.
CHUCK TODD:
– version of action.
REID WILSON:
Correct. And --
CHUCK TODD:
But you see action.
REID WILSON:
In Democratic states, we're seeing action on ghost guns, on bans on high-capacity magazines, on red flag laws like Matt just mentioned. And, by the way, those are becoming priorities of states that are moving into Democratic trifectas next year. Michigan, Minnesota, New York, you're going to start seeing -- well, New York has been. But Michigan, Minnesota, Massachusetts, Maryland, you're going to see more gun laws as Democratic governors and Democratic legislatures take over. On the other hand, gun control advocates feel like they're taking one step forward and two steps back. After the Supreme Court's decision in Bruen earlier this summer, a lot of these laws -- high-capacity magazines, ghost guns -- started being challenged in federal courts in very blue states, in New York, in Delaware --
CHUCK TODD:
And that's going to take up the docket over the next couple years --
REID WILSON:
It is. And the progress that these blue states have made, the courts are starting to roll them back. A lot of judges have already cited that Supreme Court decision.
CHUCK TODD:
Susan, you and I have covered this town a long time. And when I did the -- We showed Raymond Shafer there. I mean, nothing has actually changed in this debate. We're having the same debate. The weapons are different.
MARÍA TERESA KUMAR:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
But the debate's kind of the same.
SUSAN PAGE:
You know, I do think there is long-term risk for the Republican Party with where they are on guns because it is one more issue at which they were at odds with the majority of American public opinion, as with abortion. It's one more issue that makes them look extreme. It's one more issue that puts at risk suburban voters, who are always the voters, these days, who determine who's going to win an election.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, we did a whole special, though, on the changing gun culture. And I'm running out of time, so I'm not going to play a clip. But a very compelling woman in there, in our -- who's just basically, "The guns are already all over the place. They're everywhere. So don't infringe upon my right to protect myself. Because guess what? There's a whole bunch of guns on the street." I mean, has the ship sailed?
MARÍA TERESA KUMAR:
Well, and I think that's the challenge, is that during the pandemic, sadly, you actually saw an increase in communities of color actually getting arms. And they hadn’t before. And that --
CHUCK TODD:
That's what our entire focus has been.
MARÍA TERESA KUMAR:
And that was a challenge. But you do look at a state like Texas., and what we were really surprised is when we were trying to figure out how do you mobilize, in south Texas guns was the number one -- the number two issue for these voters. And it was partially because of El Paso --
CHUCK TODD:
Was this close to Uvalde and El Paso?
MARÍA TERESA KUMAR:
And El Paso. And so there is an opportunity to actually have these conversations because that is a state that does not want to make changes on the top. But the states that you were looking at, Texas is also on the brink of change. And so maybe it's going to be this federation of gun laws that are a quilt of patchwork, but that will actually keep Americans safer.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, the thing is that a middle ground isn't popular. And yet the middle ground is what everybody's seeking, and I don't know if it can be found.
REID WILSON:
Well, and voters are not -- you showed the poll earlier. Voters don't pay a ton of attention to gun issues as a top priority. And even when it's on the ballot, it's not as popular as voters say it is. Consider Oregon. There's a ballot measure out there. First measure --
CHUCK TODD:
Barely passed.
REID WILSON:
-- that passed in 20 years, but it passed by 26,000 votes.
CHUCK TODD:
Now, I am out of time. I want to tell you about that recent episode. It's on our magazine show “Meet the Press Reports.” It examined gun culture in America. Check it out wherever you binge and get NBC News content. You can find it on YouTube. That's all we have. We'll see you next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.