CHUCK TODD;
This Sunday: Poll vault.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Jobs are up. People are back to work.
CHUCK TODD:
Our new NBC News poll shows a jump in President Biden's approval ratings.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
We're making progress. We're getting other prices down as well.
CHUCK TODD:
-- and signs that Democrats' standing may be improving ahead of November. One explanation: the overturning of Roe v. Wade.
WOMAN:
We’re moving backwards. It's like one step forward, three steps back.
CHUCK TODD:
Another: The high-profile presence of former President Trump.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
We may have to do it again. … Stay tuned, everybody, stay tuned.
CHUCK TODD:
My guests this morning: The number-two Democrat in the Senate, Dick Durbin of Illinois and Republican Senate candidate Joe O'Dea, running to flip a Colorado seat. Plus, the Senate will look into charges by a former U.S. Attorney that Mr. Trump tried to use the Justice Department to punish his enemies and protect his friends.
GEOFFERY BERMAN:
Pissing off the president is not a federal crime.
CHUCK TODD:
Geoffrey Berman joins me this morning. Also, border wars. Amid another surge at the southern border --
WOMAN:
Some of them have been through really horrific things.
CHUCK TODD:
Florida Governor Ron DeSantis ships four dozen unsuspecting Venezuelan migrants from Texas to Martha's Vineyard in Massachusetts.
GOV. RON DeSANTIS
Every community in America should be sharing in the burden. It shouldn't all fall on red states.
STATE REP. FERNANDES:
It is so cruel, so depraved, that someone would do that.
CHUCK TODD:
Joining me for insight and analysis are: New York Times Chief White House Correspondent Peter Baker, Former Obama White House Senior Advisor Stephanie Cutter, Republican strategist Al Cardenas and Leigh Ann Caldwell of The Washington Post. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest running show in television history. This is Meet the Press, with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning. President Biden is finally getting his polling bump. A spate of news from anger over the overturning of Roe v. Wade to falling gas prices has helped push the president's poll numbers to their highest point in almost a year, and it’s thanks mostly to Democrats coming home. Among registered voters, Mr. Biden's job approval in our new NBC News poll is sitting at 45%, 52% disapproving. The big jump really was from Democrats, particularly younger ones happy about the passage of the agenda, perhaps student loans as well. But those are hardly robust numbers, and they're a jump from last month's 42, 55 split. And the race for control of Congress is dead even, 46% for Democrats, 46% for Republicans. The remarkable thing about Mr. Biden's numbers is how he even manages to get to 45%. On issue after issue, his approval ratings are consistently below 45. On foreign policy it’s just 42%; the economy, even lower -- 40%. Border? Lower than that -- 36%. And the cost of living? Even lower -- at a paltry 30%. So, what's happening? One is of course the Dobbs decision. It’s clearly energizing voters, and not just Democrats. Only 37% approve of the Supreme Court's decision to overturn Roe -- 61% disapprove of that decision. But just as important to President Biden is getting a lift from simply Donald Trump’s presence -- the high profile, investigations, all of it is preventing Republicans from turning the midterms into a referendum on Mr. Biden. [INAUDIBLE] loves to say, judge him by the alternative, not the almighty, and he may be benefitting from that right now. Voters' feelings towards Mr. Trump are just 34% positive and 54% negative -- 20 points underwater -- it’s his lowest point in a year and a half. Compare that to President Biden's current personal ratings: 42% positive, 47% negative -- not great, but that’s only five points underwater. So where are we? Bottom line is this: Less than two months from the midterms, each party is running the campaign they want to run: Republicans on crime, the economy and immigration. And they're winning that battle with the voters. Democrats are running on Mr. Trump and abortion rights, and they’re winning that battle with the voters. So, what’s going to happen? Joining me now is the number-two Democrat in the Senate, Dick Durbin of Illinois. Senator Durbin, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. DICK DURBIN:
Good to be with you, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
So I want to start with the stunt – I guess is the best way to call it – that Governor DeSantis did when trying to fund the flight of migrants in Texas that he claimed might've been coming to Florida, and sent them to Massachusetts. Here was his rationale for it, and then I want to ask you more on the other side.
(BEGIN TAPE)
GOV. RON DESANTIS:
We are not a sanctuary state. And it's better to be able to go to a sanctuary jurisdiction. And yes, we will help facilitate that transport for you.
(END TAPE)
CHUCK TODD:
All right, do you think – Whether it's these bus tickets to the Naval Observatory, New York, D.C., or Martha's Vineyard, do you think the federal government should stop them and prevent them from happening?
SEN. DICK DURBIN:
Well, I can tell you this: I've been to the Salvation Army Rescue Center in Chicago and I met with the people who came off the buses. I sat down with one of the families, and they told me the story. It is pathetic that these governors are taking advantage of these helpless people, making promises to them to get on the bus and life is just going to be fine, and off they go to places far removed from where they're supposed to be appearing under the requirements of our law in a matter of weeks and months. So he's jeopardizing their stay in the United States when each governor makes this decision. And the second part I want to raise is this, Chuck: Why is it when the Republicans want to enforce their immigration theories it's always the kids that end up being the victims? We saw it with kids in cages. We saw it with the forcible removal of children from their parents, some who've never been reunited with their families. And now, once again, it's the kids and families that are put on these buses and transported for political purposes across the United States.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you believe laws were broken here by Governor DeSantis?
SEN. DICK DURBIN:
I don't know if laws were specifically broken, but they have broken every basic standard of decency when it comes to dealing with children and families. These people are, at the moment, legally in the United States. Some of them, one family I met, it's been five months coming up from Venezuela, literally walking to our border. They went through every possible outrage that you can imagine, from theft, stealing their cellphones, pushing them into a jungle for a period of time where this man didn't think he could survive. And they finally made it to the United States, only to be exploited by the governor of Texas, in their case. I just don't think that, when you get down to the basic rules of politics, this passes the smell test.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, Senator, let's talk about the actual issue at the border. We're getting upwards, on average, I think 8,000 folks a day. We're already over 2 million for the year. Right now, I do not believe the federal government has the authority that ICE or DHS has, the funding authority to help move these folks to other parts of the country. Do you think they should have that authority?
SEN. DICK DURBIN:
We put a dramatic investment into our border operations. And President Biden has called for that, and we have supported him on a bipartisan basis. But I want to tell you the bottom line, and it's a cliché, about our broken immigration system, is the truth. Unless and until we come together in a bipartisan fashion in the Senate particularly, and once again, entertain a comprehensive immigration bill, we are just inviting trouble. Across my State of Illinois and virtually every other state, there is a desperate need for workers. Our birth rate is not keeping up with our demands for workers in every walk of life that you can imagine. We need more people. And there are those who want to serve this country, but we need an orderly process at the border. To do that, we need Congress to do its part on a bipartisan basis. The Republicans complain about the situation, and it needs to be changed dramatically. But they won't engage in helping us reach any kind of solution.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to play for you what the vice president told me about her take on the border, and get your comments. Take a listen.
(BEGIN TAPE)
VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS:
The border is secure, but we also have a broken immigration system, in particular over the last four years before we came in, and it needs to be fixed.
CHUCK TODD:
We're going to have 2 million people cross this border for the first time ever. You're confident this border's secure?
VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS:
We have a secure border in that that is a priority for any nation, including ours and our administration. But there are still a lot of problems that we are trying to fix, given the deterioration that happened over the last four years.
(END TAPE)
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Senator, I understand your comment about the Republicans here, and I think there's a lot of evidence that many of them would prefer the issue for the ballot box than a solution. But Democrats don't look like they're anxious to do something. You're an exception. You're one of the few people that wants to talk about this issue and try to solve it. But you know there's a lot of Democrats that would prefer to ignore it, and hope that, "Hey, we'll deal with it maybe at another time." How do you fix that mindset?
SEN. DICK DURBIN:
There's political danger, don't get me wrong. But we faced that eight years ago when we sat down with our gang of eight with John McCain, myself, and Schumer, and even Senator Graham, and came up with a comprehensive plan that was embraced by business, and labor, and groups across the board. We passed it in the Senate, Chuck. You'll remember that 14 Republicans voted for it, five of them are still around today. And then sent it over to the House, where it died, unfortunately. The Republican leadership refused to take it up. It can be done. We can make the borders safe and have a system of legal entry into the United States to work, put these people on the books, have them pay taxes, make sure we've done a background check. All of these things can be done. Are they controversial? You bet. Some of them are very controversial. But we know we need to do it. The United States is a nation of immigrants. I'm proud to be the son of an immigrant who came to this country. But I will tell you, if we're going to do it in this era, we can't wait another 30 years to get around to a solution.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to pivot to a couple other things that are under your umbrella as Senate Judiciary Chair in particular. If Democrats hold the Senate but Republicans take the House, are you prepared as chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee to essentially take over the January 6th investigation?
SEN. DICK DURBIN:
Well, I can tell you this: This is a remarkable investigation. I know they're going to have at least one more hearing before the end of the year. I don't know if they have concluded their remarks, or concluded their investigation I should say, or more has to be done. But that was a seminal event in American history. I was there and many members of both chambers were there when this insurrectionist mob stormed the Capitol. Five people died, 149 law enforcement were injured. And sadly, most Republicans, the overwhelming majority of Republicans in Congress want to ignore it, not even ask the question. It has to be asked, and it has to be part of our history. So I want the January 6th committee to do its work in the House. And if there's more work to be done and I'm in a position to call for it, you bet I will.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, I was just going to say, during the lame duck, I mean, if the Republicans don't want to continue the January 6th with the committee, you're prepared to essentially take over the investigation if that's what's necessary to protect whatever materials could be threatened if this investigation isn't over? Because it's my understanding they're not going to finish by the end of the year.
SEN. DICK DURBIN:
But there's one key difference. In the Senate Judiciary Committee, in order to issue a subpoena, you need bipartisan agreement to do it. That's not the case, I understand, in the House. So if the Republicans want to resist this, it's going to be difficult to continue the investigation. I hope the House gets it done.
CHUCK TODD:
Finally, really quickly, on same-sex marriage, are you at all concerned that if Republicans win the Senate that in the lame duck you won't get the votes to codify same-sex marriage?
SEN. DICK DURBIN:
I am worried about that. But my North Star on this issue is Tammy Baldwin of Wisconsin. She has led the bipartisan effort, and she believes this is the right way to deal with it. I defer to her. But this is a serious issue, just like the Dobbs decision. Clarence Thomas made it clear that he's going to move toward overthrow the Supreme Court case related to gay rights in this country. We better take him seriously.
CHUCK TODD:
Senator Dick Durbin, number two in Senate leadership, also chairman of the Judiciary Committee. Thanks for coming on, sharing your perspective.
SEN. DICK DURBIN:
Thanks, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
One reason Democrats are hopeful about holding the Senate is because Republican primary voters have nominated numerous candidates in Trump's image, who just may be too controversial to win over swing voters. Democrats had hoped for the same result in Colorado. They even funded a Trump-like candidate in the primary, but a more moderate Republican named Joe O'Dea won. O'Dea is trying to make the case that he's no extremist.
FEMALE SPEAKER (ARCHIVAL):
He's a different kind of Republican too. My dad supports a woman's right to choose.
JOE O'DEA (ARCHIVAL):
For the first months that should be a woman's decision between her and her doctor.
CHUCK TODD:
And Joe O'Dea, who will take on two-term senator Michael Bennet, joins me now. Mr. O'Dea, welcome to Meet the Press.
JOE O'DEA:
Chuck, thanks for having me on today. I really appreciate it. My wife loves your show.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, thank you for saying that. Let me start with what you said about five months. I get it for five months. So let me ask you about the other four months. Who decides?
JOE O'DEA:
Look, I believe after the five-month period that there should be some exceptions: rape, incest, medical necessity. And that decision should also be a woman's decision with her doctor. But I don't believe in late-term abortion on demand.
CHUCK TODD:
Can you write a law though that deals with that? Because it seems that a lot of people are realizing-- I think a lot of people are uncomfortable with late-term abortion, and there really isn’t – people don't seem to do it by choice. The only time you really see it is when it's a medical emergency. Does it make it that you really can't write a law?
JOE O'DEA:
Well, look, I think Senator Collins is on the right track. She's got some traction. I think that bill could pass. There's a couple things I'd like to see in it. Parental notification is something that we have in Colorado. I think that would be good add to that bill.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you this. You have said there was one bill you didn't like, the one abortion rights bill I think that Joe Manchin voted against. And then there's this one that you pointed out with Senator Collins. Given where you are on this issue are you more likely to vote for something that protects abortion rights even if it doesn't have everything you want?
JOE O'DEA:
Look, I think the first five months are critical. That should be a woman's decision with her doctor. And after that, exceptions: rape, incest, medical necessity, those should be, again, between a woman and her doctor. And I'm going to vote that way.
CHUCK TODD:
I'm curious, you voted for a ballot initiative that didn't have those exceptions. As Dobbs been overturned, have you found yourself thinking about this issue a little bit differently?
JOE O'DEA:
Well, look, it's the center of attention in a lot of cases. And I'm exactly where I was when I started this campaign, haven't changed. I didn't write that bill. But I believe that, you know, it should be a woman's right in the first five months.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me play an ad that is very positive for you. Let me play an ad that Senator Bennet is running against you. Take a look.
MALE SPEAKER (ARCHIVAL):
Joe O'Dea is the perfect candidate, according to Mitch McConnell. McConnell's all in on his support for O'Dea. Joe O'Dea, perfect for McConnell, wrong for Colorado.
CHUCK TODD:
Now put McConnell's quote in context. He said that you were perfect for sort of the politics of Colorado. That's how he was describing you. But let me ask you this. Where do you differ with Mitch McConnell?
JOE O'DEA:
Well, look, I believe that the abortion issue – he and I are different on that. He's very pro-life. I'll buck the party. I'm not afraid to move it forward. I'm disappointed with my opponent, Senator Bennett. He's trying to distort the issue for Coloradans so they don't get the truth. And I've been consistent with my message through that period of time. And I'm not going to change. I'm an independent thinker. I am who I am, and you get what you get. And that's how I'll vote.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, it's interesting, I was looking up on immigration. You believe there should be citizenship for Dreamers.
JOE O'DEA:
I do.
CHUCK TODD:
And you want to see border security. And that compromise, we're farther apart from that. Are you comfortable bucking your party on Dreamers if it means that you'd have Republican primary voters upset with you?
JOE O'DEA:
Look, I think the Democrats have lost touch with this issue, just like they've lost touch with thousands of IRS agents, like they've lost touch with, you know, this debt transfer for tuition. Working Americans don't want to pay for that. And they've also lost touch with our border.
Our border needs to be secure. Colorado's number two in Fentanyl overdoses right now. And that Fentanyl's coming straight up I-25. We lost 1,800 Coloradans last year to drug overdose. And I think that Democrats have lost touch. Kamala Harris saying that the border's secure? We had two million people cross the border this last year. It's not secure. And they're killing our kids. That's what's going on, cartels coming right into our towns.
CHUCK TODD:
During a debate earlier this summer, and this was before we saw many of the January 6th hearings, you said Donald Trump was not solely responsible for January 6th. Have you changed your mind on that after seeing the hearings--
JOE O'DEA:
Look--
CHUCK TODD:
--over the summer?
JOE O'DEA:
I think our former president could've done a lot more to stop that. Three and a half hours to say, "Enough's enough," that's wrong. I think that January 6th was a black eye on our country. Anybody that, you know, did some violence or hurt some people, they should be held accountable. And I believe that. And we need to move our country forward.
CHUCK TODD:
I understand that. Here's what former President Trump wants to do with the January 6th insurrectionists. Take a listen.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP (ARCHIVAL):
We'll be looking very, very seriously at full pardons because we can't let that happen. What's happened here is-- and I mean full pardons with an apology, to many an apology.
CHUCK TODD:
When you hear that, because again you seem to want to give him some deference to what
happened on January 6th, but when you hear that how do you not hold him responsible for January 6th?
JOE O'DEA:
Look, I disagree with our former president. I wouldn't give full pardons to anybody that's violent. We need to hold those people accountable. That should never happen again.
CHUCK TODD:
Would you – by the way, Donald Trump says all Republican Senate candidates should want a rally with him because it's the only way Republicans can win. I assume you don't want Mr. Trump rallying in Colorado?
JOE O'DEA:
Look, I'm the only Senate candidate for the Republican Party that hasn't been endorsed by Donald Trump. Probably not going to send me a Christmas card. I don't want to see him run again. I don't want to see Joe Biden run again. I think that tears our country apart, and I think I'm where most Americans are. We need to move this country forward. There's some great Republican candidates out there, and I'm going to help campaign for them.
CHUCK TODD:
One of the candidates you promoted is Ron DeSantis. Are you comfortable with the idea of using migrants as a political tool?
JOE O'DEA:
Well, look, I think Ron DeSantis and Governor Abbott were right to bring some visibility to this issue.
CHUCK TODD:
But is this the right way to do it?
JOE O'DEA:
We've got Fentanyl killing our kids. People call what he did cruel. You know what's cruel is ignoring this issue. Democrats are ignoring it, doing nothing while our kids are dying.
CHUCK TODD:
I mean, there's no evidence Republicans are interested in solving this problem in the Senate. You've seen it. You've criticized it. No interest here. So why is this only on the Democrats?
JOE O'DEA:
Well, that's why I'm running. I need to get in there so we can get a bipartisan bill together that solves this issue. We need to get the Dreamers citizenship, we need to fix our immigration system, and we dang sure need to close this border down and make sure that it's secure. It's a national security issue.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think though the problem we have at the border was sort of, what, Donald Trump kinked the hose? And when you do that this is what you're going to get. I mean, I guess I'm trying to figure out how this is all on the Democrats when Donald Trump did nothing to solve the border.
JOE O'DEA:
Well, look, the answer's in the numbers. The numbers are up to 200,000, 250,000 crossing our border each and every month. That didn't happen under Donald Trump's watch. It's happened under Joe Biden's watch.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. Joe O'Dea, the Republican nominee for Senate in Colorado. Appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us.
JOE O'DEA:
Thanks a lot for having me, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Stay safe on the trail. When we come back the former U.S. attorney who says he was fired because he refused to use the office to protect Mr. Trump's friends and punish his enemies. Geoffrey Berman joins me next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. It has been an active week involving the investigations of former President Trump. On Friday, the Justice Department asked an appeals court to give it access to roughly 100 classified documents seized from Mar-a-Lago, and not send them to a special master. Earlier, Justice sent out roughly 40 subpoenas in a separate investigation of Mr. Trump's efforts involving -- the efforts to overturn the election in and around January 6th. And then the Senate Judiciary Committee says it's going to investigate new allegations that the former president tried to use the U.S. Attorney's Office in New York to protect his friends and punish his enemies. And that last charge, that came in a new book. It's called Holding the Line. It’s by Geoffrey Berman. He was fired by Mr. Trump as a U.S. attorney. Not just in any district, it was the Southern District of New York. He says it was for refusing to politicize the office. Well, Geoffrey Berman joins me now. Mr. Berman, welcome to Meet the Press.
GEOFFREY BERMAN:
Oh, thank you for having me.
CHUCK TODD:
So let me start with this. You allege a lot of political interference both by the former Attorney General Barr as well as the former president here. How confident are you that laws were not broken in their attempt to, to quiet you?
GEOFFREY BERMAN:
Well, what I focus on is the violation of the cardinal principle of the Department of Justice, which is that partisan political concerns should not enter into any decision making. And what I -- I wrote the book because I want people to understand the full scope of the improper and outrageous political interference by the Trump Justice Department in the cases of the Southern District of New York. The book demonstrates what Trump is capable of and what he's likely to do and it provides a frontline view of just how vulnerable our justice system is.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, I wanted you to outline that because I've got to play something that the former president said last night at a rally in Youngstown about the Justice Department. Take a listen.
[BEGIN TAPE]
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
And now, the unprecedented weaponization of the Justice Department and the FBI to break into and raid the home of a former president of the United States.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
You volunteered for the Trump campaign in 2016. You're not just some sort of, you know, never-Trumper or Anti-Trumper, however people want to classify various Republicans. How -- what's your reaction to that clip?
GEOFFREY BERMAN:
Well, you know, it's really quite outrageous. Trump is trying to portray himself somehow as the victim of a politicized Department of Justice. And I think my book throws the irony of that. I mean, it was under Trump and under Barr that the politicization of the Department of Justice actually occurred. There's no evidence supporting that he was victimized. But my book details in granular --
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
GEOFFREY BERMAN:
-- level the evidence that the Department of Justice politicized and tried to politicize the cases of the Southern District of New York.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, there's a whole slew we could go through. I want to single out one because it's probably the easiest one to describe in a short interview, and that’s John Kerry. Here's the former secretary of state. President Trump was mad about -- because he was trying to stop President Trump from pulling out of the Iran Nuclear Agreement. And suddenly, based on a couple of tweets, you get a referral to investigate John Kerry. Explain that.
GEOFFREY BERMAN:
It was extraordinary. So President Trump attacks John Kerry in two tweets, saying that John Kerry engaged in possible illegal conversations with Iranian officials over the Iran Nuclear Deal. The very next day, the Trump Justice Department refers the John Kerry criminal case to the Southern District of New York.
CHUCK TODD:
What case? It existed? Based on this tweet?
GEOFFREY BERMAN:
Yeah. Based on the tweet. So two tweets from the president, and the John Kerry criminal case is now a priority for the Department of Justice. And the statute they wanted us to use was enacted in 1799 and had never been successfully prosecuted. So about 220 years on the books, and there were no convictions. And so we investigated. John Kerry was entirely innocent. And yet, the Justice Department continued to push us, and push us, and push us. And when I declined, Attorney General Barr did not take no for an answer. He transferred the case to another district. And thankfully, that district didn't indict either.
CHUCK TODD:
The various instances where you show this interference are pretty damning. One of them had to do with the case involving Stormy Daniels and Michael Cohen. Michael Cohen is upset because he believes you should've come out sooner. I'm going to put up a quote here about you. He said, "He had an obligation to come forward to Congress, the FBI, or law enforcement to disclose, not release the information years later in a book. Berman's actions are, at the bare minimum, unethical and quite possibly illegal." You did go before the House Judiciary Committee in 2020 before the campaign. But do you think you should've sounded the alarm louder or stronger? Do you understand --
GEOFFREY BERMAN:
Oh I sounded the alarm very loudly. When Attorney General Barr tried to fire me in June of 2020, I was about as noisy as I could be. I sent a press release to the entire country saying that the chief law enforcement officer of the country, Barr, lied when he said I was stepping down. And I used the language of the Obstruction of Justice Statute, letting the country know what Barr was trying to do and how he had crossed the line. And then in my testimony before Congress, I reiterated that imposing an outsider, as Barr was trying to do, an outsider who he trusted, in charge of our cases and ongoing investigations, would've disrupted and delayed those investigations. So I was very upfront with the danger that was going on.
CHUCK TODD:
If Donald Trump's elected president again, what happens to the Justice Department in your view?
GEOFFREY BERMAN:
Well, I shudder to think about it. The prospect of a second Trump administration frightens me. All of the dangerous and outrageous things he did as president will be repeated if there's a second administration, except this time, he's going to be more successful in doing that. And remember, when he was president, he always knew he had to stand for reelection. If there's a second administration, he'll be free of those concerns.
CHUCK TODD:
Bill Barr -- do you believe he committed any crimes in trying to obstruct your ability to do your job at SDNY?
GEOFFREY BERMAN:
Bill Barr wrote a book of 600 pages. And in that book, he didn't mention any of the improper and outrageous political interferences with our office. He never mentioned John Kerry. He never mentioned Greg Craig. He never mentioned Cohen. He never mentioned Halkbank. He never mentioned my firing. It was a complete whitewash of what went on at the Justice Department under his leadership. And we are now beginning to take that whitewash away.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to play something Merrick Garland said yesterday at Ellis Island and get you to respond to it. Here's what he said.
[BEGIN TAPE]
A.G. MERRICK GARLAND:
The rule of law means that the law treats each of us alike. There is not one rule for friends, another for foes; one rule for the powerful, another for the powerless; one rule for the rich, another for the poor.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
What kind of confidence do you have in Merrick Garland as attorney general?
GEOFFREY BERMAN:
Oh, I think what he's done and said so far, I have a great deal of confidence in. This things that -- you know, he recently took an appeal regarding the Mar-a-Lago search. And there is an urgency to what the Justice Department is pursuing here. And I understand it entirely. And it stems from the revelation that Donald Trump and those around Donald Trump are being investigated not just for the mishandling of classified information, but for obstruction of the subpoena requiring the production of that classified information. That is an extremely serious charge. If that were in the Southern District, it would have our highest priority, and we would be moving very quickly on it.
CHUCK TODD:
I was just going to say, very quickly, everybody's been wondering if indictments are coming, is this something we should expect in months, not years, or weeks, not months, or months, not years?
GEOFFREY BERMAN:
Well, you know, there is the 60-day rule --
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
GEOFFREY BERMAN:
-- at the Department of Justice --
CHUCK TODD:
Would this qualify for it, in your mind?
GEOFFREY BERMAN:
An indictment --
CHUCK TODD:
The 60-day rule with Trump being -- he's not on the ballot.
GEOFFREY BERMAN:
Oh, yes. It counsels against taking any action --
CHUCK TODD:
Okay.
GEOFFREY BERMAN:
-- that could impact an election. And I think this would qualify for that. And so, you know, I think that counsels, you know, that, you know, I don't think anything dramatic --
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
GEOFFREY BERMAN:
-- should be expected prior to the election.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. The book is “Holding the Line.” Geoffrey Berman, a former U.S. Attorney, Southern District of New York. Like I said, not just any district, the Southern District of New York. Mr. Berman, thanks for coming on and sharing your perspective.
GEOFFREY BERMAN:
Thank you for having me.
CHUCK TODD:
You got it. When we come back, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis ships migrants off to Massachusetts. He says the point is blue states should share the burden of immigration at the border. But is it simply a troll for his 2024 campaign? Panel is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Panel is here. I've got Leigh Ann Caldwell with The Washington Post; New York Times Chief White House Correspondent Peter Baker, who's written a new book with his wife, Susan Glasser. It's called “The Divider: Trump in the White House, 2017-2021” -- I don't know if they want to write a volume two -- Republican strategist Al Cardenas and former Obama White House Senior Advisor Stephanie Cutter. Welcome, all. Congrats on the book. We'll get to that in a minute. But Al, I want to start with you. You and I are South Floridians. And the Ron DeSantis move, I -- the first thing I thought of is, "He's shipping Venezuelans where?" And he’s not -- you tell me the politics of this in Florida for DeSantis. This has to be complicated, no?
AL CARDENAS:
It is complicated. And, frankly, it's putting at play three or four state legislative seats, maybe one Congressional seat, that are fairly close at this point, where all of these people live, all of these --
CHUCK TODD:
The Venezuelans?
AL CARDENAS:
-- the Democrat -- Venezuelans live. I didn't understand the timing of it. And, of course, I don't understand why you'd do that. If I was DeSantis, I'd fire those who put it together. He gave the greenlight to this project, but it could have been worse. People who were already qualified for asylum application, people who were -- they had the right to be, people who were lied to, people who were taken to Martha's Vineyard, and people who weren't in Florida, using Florida taxpayer dollars. And so I didn't understand any of it. And then when I saw the small children, it just broke my heart. I just didn't understand the why of it politically or personally.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Stephanie, it's, I think, easy to condemn what Governor DeSantis did. I think the question for the administration is -- and I've talked to some folks at DHS who are, like, "There is a concern that the administration just doesn't want to deal with this right now because of the politics of it."
STEPHANIE CUTTER:
Well, I -- you know, I'm not in there, so --
CHUCK TODD:
I know that.
STEPHANIE CUTTER:
-- I don't know what the discussions are. But I think that they do want to deal with it. And they have been dealing with it. You know, the president put in his budget this year record funding for the Department of Homeland Security to fund more border agents, to make sure that these people can be processed faster. They’ve put in a system that is more sane and efficient than what we were dealing with under President Trump. Unfortunately, Republicans, you know, I heard you say this earlier, like to campaign on immigration. But they don't like to do anything about it. And, you know, the -- plenty of Republicans voted against that funding, including senators from Florida and Texas, the two states that are shipping --
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
STEPHANIE CUTTER:
-- immigrants across the country. So I do think they are dealing with it. It is a tough problem to solve.
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
STEPHANIE CUTTER:
And it's a tough problem to solve not only because of the substance of it. You know, if people are qualifying for political asylum, that's --
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
STEPHANIE CUTTER:
-- what our country is built on. But it's also a tough problem to solve politically.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, by the way, we have help wanted signs all over this, you know?
STEPHANIE CUTTER:
Exactly.
CHUCK TODD:
We have a huge magnet, number one. And number two, there is huge -- this migration issue is challenging. Haiti is falling apart. Cuba is still in bad shape, Venezuela. You know, talk to Colombia about how many Venezuelans they have. But there's a timing question I have, Leigh Ann. On I believe it was -- when was it Tuesday or Wednesday, Lindsey Graham comes out with his 15-week abortion ban, and all of a sudden, the next day Ron DeSantis gets that off the front page. I'm not saying they're connected, but boy, it seemed convenient timing.
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:
Well, I think there’s a lot of things about timing with this decision by Ron DeSantis. I mean, you previewed 2024. But I think 2022 is definitely a reason as well, even though DeSantis could be running for president in 2024. Republicans have decided that immigration is one of the top three issues that vote -- that the base voters care about --
CHUCK TODD:
They're right --
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:
-- this midterm elections --
CHUCK TODD:
-- about the Republican base, by the way. Our poll shows that they're right. I mean, immigration fires them up.
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:
Yeah, absolutely. And so one of the reasons that Senate -- the Senate decided to punt on another culture issue, the same sex marriage, is in large part because they think that it'll do better after the midterm elections. Republicans have decided that they, even though that could play well in Independent, suburban states and districts, they need their base to turn out in these midterm elections. And that is what they are saying is most important right now.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
AL CARDENAS:
Look, Chuck, the truth of the matter is that Stephanie's right about this or that, but having the present issue, a few tweets doesn't handle the issue. The border issue is number one on the voters' minds that Republicans have brought up. And the White House has done very little politically about it. Why not, excuse me, in lieu of Congress's inaction, why not appoint a committee? Leon Panetta, Michael Chertoff --
CHUCK TOOD:
Sure. Yeah.
AL CARDENAS:
-- others, to say, "I'm going to appoint these people to give me recommendations on border security," and run with that.
CHUCK TOOD:
Yeah.
AL CARDENAS:
He's very passive on an issue that's hurting his party a lot.
CHUCK TODD:
Peter, I've gotten a few people wondering if we're just getting played by DeSantis. He's pulling a Trump on us, right? We're sitting here. This is not the center of attention, but boy, he changed the subject and we all went to it. It’s like, it’s hard to -- you can’t -- we know it's a political stunt. We know it's for media attention, but these are human beings. We couldn't ignore it.
PETER BAKER:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you could say, obviously, he's getting criticized for exploiting people for a political purpose, but he's got us talking about it. He's got us talking about it. And the point that he's making is, you know, a rational one to talk about: What level of responsibility do states that are not at the border have to help out? Fair enough. Obviously, to do it in this way is not actually solving the problem. But look, this is the playbook we've seen now the last three election cycles. It worked for Republicans as far as they were concerned with Trump in 20, in sorry, 2016.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
PETER BAKER:
It didn't work in 2018 when he tried it with the caravans, right? In the midterms last time, he tried to make immigration --
CHUCK TODD:
Claire McCaskill --
PETER BAKER:
-- a big issue.
CHUCK TODD:
-- would disagree. I mean --
PETER BAKER:
It obviously worked --
CHUCK TODD:
-- you know --
PETER BAKER:
-- in some places.
CHUCK TODD:
-- I was just going to say --
PETER BAKER:
Yes. Yes.
CHUCK TODD:
-- it does work in red areas.
PETER BAKER:
Right, exactly.
STEPHANIE CUTTER:
But it -- but what it also did, it might get the Republican base all riled up, but it also has the effect, just like many other issues that we're talking about today, of driving Independent voters --
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
STEPHANIE CUTTER:
-- particularly Independent women, to Democrats. People are ashamed about what DeSantis did.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, this gets to though -- because DeSantis is clearly trying to borrow from Trump. And I want to -- I want to do one excerpt from your book here, Peter. And it's Lindsey Graham, who probably is the best symbol of sort of the folks that are trapped by Trump. He says: "'He's a lying MF-er,' Graham said of Trump, with a what-can-you-do shrug, 'but also a lot of fun to hang out with. … He could kill 50 people on our side, and it wouldn't matter,' Graham said. Their reasoning was simple. He was the president from their party." This Trump -- I mean, Trump wants to pardon January 6th. The fact that there aren't more Republicans trying to distance themselves from Trump's astonishing to me. I look at our own poll and I can't believe it.
PETER BAKER:
It is remarkable here, 18, 20 months after he left office, after the insurrection of January 6th, that he is still obviously so dominant. But I was struck by one thing in your poll that was interesting. For the first time since you guys have been asking the question, you asked the question of are you more -- of Republicans --
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
PETER BAKER:
"Are you more a supporter of Trump or more a supporter of the Republican Party," 33% more --
CHUCK TODD:
Let's put up that graphic, guys. It's unbelievable.
PETER BAKER:
-- more for Trump than for the Republican Party. That's the lowest number since you guys have been asking that question.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
PETER BAKER:
So there is, I think, some disconcerting feeling --
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
PETER BAKER:
-- for a lot of Republicans about whether they really want to be involved with him or not.
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:
I noticed that in that poll --
AL CARDENAS:
Except that in primaries, the --
CHUCK TODD:
Yes. Well, that's the problem --
PETER BAKER:
Yeah.
AL CARDENAS:
-- numbers are --
CHUCK TODD:
That 33% is more than 50% --
AL CARDENAS:
Exactly.
CHUCK TODD:
-- in a primary electorate --
AL CARDENAS:
Exactly.
CHUCK TODD:
-- and that's the issue. Very quick, and I've got to wrap.
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:
You're starting to see that in these --
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:
-- general election campaigns. People are distancing themselves from Trump, even the MAGA-ers.
CHUCK TODD:
Oh. Our New Hampshire friend is probably the most 180.
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
We don't have time for that quote, but we'll see. Anyway, when we come back, Democrats own the cities and Republicans own rural America. But the most persuadable voters are concentrated in the outer suburbs -- call them the exurbs -- and they may well determine the outcome of this year's midterms. That's next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Data Download time. In every election, there are solid Democratic voters, solid Republican voters. And then there are voters who defy easy categorization, those persuadable voters. Sometimes we call them "soccer mom" or "office-park dads."
But this time, we're going to talk about them geographically. They're often the difference between winning and losing. And our new NBC News poll has some clues about who they are, and most importantly, where they live. So we want to do this geographically.
Persuadable voters, we define that as people that have voted both Republican and Democrat at least once in the last four years. And as you could see where they live, nearly half of them, a plurality, live in what we call the outer suburbs or exurbs.
You could see combined, the number of persuadable voters in cities or those close in urban suburbs basically collectively add up to what the exurbs have. And you could see in rural America, not too many persuadable voters. So what are the places where these persuadable voters could impact the battle in the midterms?
Well, in House races, you've got Arizona's first Congressional district. It's a huge, the eleventh largest Congressional district in the country. It's parts of Phoenix, and north. You've got Colorado eight. It starts in the suburbs of Denver, goes all the way up to Fort Collins.
North Carolina 13. It's part of the research triangle and farther out, tipping some rural parts of that area. Michigan seven. Goes from the western suburbs of Detroit, all the way to Lansing. And then you've got here in Minnesota two, which is St. Paul, and it goes nearly all the way down to the southern border.
It's this mix of districts. So why are they persuadable? Well, because they sort of fall on both sides of some issues. A potential Democratic edge with these voters? 51% want Trump investigations to continue. 54% of these folks disapprove of the Dobbs decision.
But there's some potential that they're also Republican voters. 53% of them favor a GOP-controlled Congress. And 63% of them disapprove of Biden's handling of the economy. Look, we're always in search of ‘who's this year's swing voter?’
Well, here's what I can tell you. I don't know who they are. I can tell you where they live. They live in exurban America. When we come back, the growth of Christian nationalism in the United States and the pastor who says it's time to break down that wall between church and state. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. We've launched our fifth season of Meet the Press Reports. It's our half-hour weekly show that does a deep dive on one issue per episode. This week, we look at the rise of theocracy in the United States. It includes the growing belief by some on the far right that there is not, and never has been, an actual wall of separation separating between church and state.
We focus on Moscow, Idaho. It's a small college town near the border with Washington state, where a pastor named Doug Wilson of Christ Church is embracing a form of Christian nationalism. Pastor Wilson told NBC News Correspondent Anne Thompson that he's fighting secularism and what he calls cold civil war.
ANNE THOMPSON:
So in your version of a Christian town, would there be a place for non-believers?
PASTOR DOUG WILSON:
Oh, absolutely. Yeah.
ANNE THOMPSON:
Would there be a place for same sex couples?
PASTOR DOUG WILSON:
Well, you mean legally?
ANNE THOMPSON:
Yes.
PASTOR DOUG WILSON:
You mean like marriage?
ANNE THOMPSON:
Uh-huh (AFFIRM).
PASTOR DOUG WILSON:
No. No marriage. But there'd be same sex couples--
ANNE THOMPSON:
No marriage, even though it's the law of the land in the United States?
PASTOR DOUG WILSON:
Just like Roe used to be, right?
ANNE THOMPSON:
Reverend Dr. Elizabeth Stevens leads the Unitarian Universalist Church of the Palouse.
REVEREND DR. ELIZABETH STEVENS:
In the public square, I don't see them representing Christianity. I don't see them representing the values that I find in the Bible. I see them representing patriarchy. I see them fighting the culture war.
PASTOR DOUG WILSON:
You can't have a naval warfare without ships. And you can't have tank warfare without tanks. And as I tell Christians all around the country, you can't have culture war unless you have a culture.
CHUCK TODD:
You can see the full episode of Meet the Press Reports on Peacock, YouTube, Roku or anywhere you get NBC News videos. New episodes first air on NBC News Now on Thursdays at 10:30 p.m., Eastern. So let me bring the panel back. Peter, this is not sort of disaggregated from the world of Trump. In many ways, it's fused with Trumpism. In fact, let me put a mash together of some candidates that Trump has endorsed who are all sort of preaching this, "There's no wall between church and state." Take a look.
REP. LAUREN BOEBERT (RECORDED):
And I'm tired of this separation of church and state junk.
DOUG MASTRIANO (RECORDED):
In November, we're going to take our state back. My God, we'll make it so. We will.
REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (RECORDED):
We need to be the party of nationalism. And I'm a Christian and I say it proudly. We should be Christian nationalists.
CHUCK TODD:
Now, Donald Trump has embraced this. Evangelicals embraced Trump. It was sort of a grand bargain, right? They seemed to get what they want, and it has fused into something else here. In your reporting on Trump, how does he view this sort of Christian nationalism that is attaching itself to Trumpism?
PETER BAKER:
Well, he's very opportunistic, of course. Obviously it's not saying anything surprising to say that Donald Trump is not exactly the most religious person in the world. Certainly his values are not particularly Christian. But he recognized in 2016 something important, which is these Christian conservatives were important to his victory, right? That was something therefore he needed to pay attention to. He once told in fact, Lindsey Graham, and you played that clip from him earlier. He once told Lindsey Graham about these pastors who called him to tell him they were praying for him in the middle of impeachment. He says, "Those F-ing Christians just love me." I mean, he's very opportunistic and kind of cynical about it, but he recognizes that it's important to his political success. And they have recognized that his success is important to them because he gave them a lot of what they wanted. In terms of judges, in terms of policies, he was the most overtly anti-abortion president and arguably the one most responsible for the overturning of Roe v. Wade.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, look. Some of this is reactionary, Leigh Ann. I want to put up this statistic. "Are you a member of a church, synagogue, or mosque?" Membership over the decades. So in 1940, 73% of Americans were a member of a church, synagogue, or a mosque. Look where we are in 2020. We're down to 47%. How much of this rise of Christian nationalism is almost sort of like a reaction to the fact that we're becoming more secular as a country?
LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:
Yeah, that's a huge problem for some of these people. They don't want that to happen. They don't like these trends. But they are also a very powerful minority in this country. I mean, you look at the abortion movement. They organized 50 years ago after Roe v. Wade was decided, and they got the result that they wanted. And so there is some political belief among this group that they can continue to move the country, even though they are in a minority, in the direction that they want.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Stephanie, we've noticed in our show for the most part there is one voting group in the Democratic coalition that does want to see, you know, religious texts sometimes be fused with public politics, and that's churchgoing African Americans in particular. But Democrats in general are becoming more secular as a party. Do you ever worry about that sort of uncomfortable partnership there?
STEPHANIE CUTTER:
Uncomfortable partnership with?
CHUCK TODD:
Just on religious stuff.
STEPHANIE CUTTER:
No, I don't worry about it. You've got, you know, a Catholic president who very much believed in people having their own beliefs. And, you know, there are plenty of opportunities for Democratic politicians or electeds to show their faith. Look at what's happening in Pennsylvania with Josh Shapiro. He's Jewish, but he is not ceding churches to Mastriano, who is very much a Christian nationalist. And he's going and he's very comfortable preaching from the pulpit about why he's running for office, how his faith informs what he believes politically. And that's exactly what Democrats need to keep doing because we should not cede the faith issue to Republicans.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Al, the Republican Party over the last 30 years was very much tied to many churchgoers--
AL CARDENAS:
Ronald Reagan became a--
CHUCK TODD:
Is this going to become a liability?
AL CARDENAS:
Probably. You know, I'm saddened by the fact that America is becoming more secular just from a spiritual point of view. I also am saddened by the fact that my Catholic Church and the non-Evangelical Protestants have weakened themselves to the point where they're not as relevant. And so the most relevant political group in the religious movement right now are Evangelicals. And they have always had a different perspective than my Catholic Church or non-Evangelical Protestants. And I think these guys are talking to Evangelicals, not the rest of us.
CHUCK TODD:
No, I think you're absolutely right. Well, I hope you catch the episode if you get a chance. That's all we have for today. Thank you for watching. We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday it's Meet the Press. Thank you, John.