CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday: A divided America.
STUART MICKELBERG:
People are enraged on both sides of the issue, and it's completely tearing this community apart.
CHUCK TODD:
The country split in two on multiple fronts. One battlefield: Covid and masks --
ANDREW ZINN:
Masks do not stop the spread of this virus. It only stops the spread of friendship and learning.
TENNESSEE WOMAN:
This is all smoke and mirrors. This is tyranny.
CHUCK TODD:
-- even as the pandemic is again killing 15 hundred Americans a day.
DENISE FRIEDEN:
I feel like I'm in some weird twilight zone, why we're still going over wearing masks and having safe schools for our kids. It's bananas.
CHUCK TODD:
This morning, I'll talk to two governors trying to bridge that divide: Larry Hogan, the Republican governor of blue state Maryland and Andy Beshear, the Democratic governor of red state Kentucky. Plus, the newly elevated fight over abortion.
PROTESTORS:
Bans off our bodies. My body is my own.
CHUCK TODD:
Texas enacts the most restrictive abortion law in the country, dismaying abortion rights advocates --
NANCY NORTHRUP:
As a matter of reality, Roe vs. Wade is a dead letter in Texas today.
CHUCK TODD:
-- and the Supreme Court lets the law stand for now, cheering abortion opponents.
MARJORIE DANNENFELSER:
The child is a child, that this person is a person.
CHUCK TODD:
My guests this morning: former Democratic Senator Claire McCaskill of Missouri and former Republican Congresswoman Barbara Comstock of Virginia. Also, long-term power outages in Louisiana, record rainfall and flooding in the northeast -- what Hurricane Ida tells us about the threat of climate change. Joining me for insight and analysis are: Yamiche Alcindor, the moderator of Washington Week, Washington Post contributing columnist Matt Bai, Betsy Woodruff Swan of Politico and Republican strategist Brendan Buck. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
And a good Sunday morning. The U.S. enters this Labor Day weekend suffering from two viruses: Covid and polarization. It is not an exaggeration to say that we are more divided than at any time perhaps since the 1960s, and frankly, maybe since the Civil War. As one of our guests today put it, we used to be divided over issues like abortion and guns, we’re kind of used to those divisions, and we still are divided on those two issues, but now we can't even agree about Covid or January 6th. Covid has become an MRI of America's soul. Who would have imagined that masks -- wearing or refusing them -- would become such a political statement? This morning, we're going to take a look at how and why we're so divided, primarily through the lens of two issues. One is Covid, where the seven-day average of infections has risen to more than 161,000, driven largely by vaccine hesitancy and refusal. The other is abortion. The Supreme Court letting stand, at least for now, that restrictive Texas law that has left abortion opponents believing Roe could finally be overturned and pro-choice advocates fearing they may be right. With the country increasingly divided by geography, race, age, education, the question we're asking this morning: Do we have the political leadership to meet this treacherous political moment?
STUART MICKELBERG:
People are enraged on both sides of the issue, and it’s completely tearing this community apart.
CHUCK TODD:
The political divide has become deadly, with vaccine hesitancy driven by misinformation and the politicizing of the virus leading to the harassment of health care workers, hospitalizations and deaths.
PENNSYLVANIA WOMAN:
Things are just escalating. The rhetoric, the bullying.
FLORIDA WOMAN:
I feel like I'm in some weird twilight zone, why we're still going over wearing masks.
CHUCK TODD:
Just 53 percent of Americans are fully vaccinated. Despite the nation's early start, that rate trails more than 30 other countries. As Covid hospitalizations and deaths rise, red states with the lowest vaccination rates are driving the surge.
GOV. JIM JUSTICE:
You got to help me get the people vaccinated.
GOV. ANDY BESHEAR:
We are suffering the most at a time when it is the most preventable.
CHUCK TODD:
In a recent NBC News poll, just 55 percent of Republicans said they were vaccinated, compared to 88 percent of Democrats. Among Republicans who said they support Donald Trump over the Republican Party, the number was even lower: 46 percent. Seventy-nine percent of Democrats favor a vaccine requirement. Seventy-five percent of Republicans oppose it.
GABE GUTTIEREZ:
Do you regret not getting the vaccine?
MONTANA PATIENT:
Absolutely. I 100 percent regret it.
GABE GUTTIEREZ:
What were some of the things you were hearing?
MONTANA PATIENT:
That the vaccine was not a real vaccine, that it was like a tracking chip the government was trying to use on us.
CHUCK TODD:
Misinformation has spread rapidly on conservative media --
NEWSMAX GUEST:
A plan is now underway to use vaccine mandates to take your guns.
TUCKER CARLSON:
Virtually everything they told us about the Covid vaccine was wrong.
CHUCK TODD:
-- and on social media.
ARKANSAS MAN:
What’s in the vaccine? Give me the answer sheet!
MEREDITH DUKE:
We literally have come up with an incredibly safe and efficacious vaccine. People are behind me screaming about how it's tyranny and it's communism.
CHUCK TODD:
There are also sharp divisions between the two Americas over the results of the election, the January 6th insurrection, the border, guns and abortion. Now likely to produce a national political battle leading up to the next election -- the new Texas law, which bans abortion after six weeks, provides at least a $10,000 reward to any individual who successfully sues someone for performing, aiding or intending to aid in an abortion, including the driver who drops a woman off at a clinic.
TEXAS WOMAN:
It's going to be nearly impossible for folks to access the care that they need.
REBECCA PARMA:
Thrilled we are celebrating this historic day for the pro-life movement.
CHUCK TODD:
The Texas law is by far the most restrictive in effect. Fifteen states have attempted to ban abortion before viability but have been stopped by court order. Fifty-four percent of Americans say abortion should always or mostly be legal. Forty-two percent say it should always or mostly be illegal. Still, several states are already considering copycat legislation after the Supreme Court upheld the Texas law.
WILTON SIMPSON:
When the Supreme Court goes out and makes a decision like this, it clearly is going to send a signal to all the states that are interested in banning abortions.
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now are two governors who are living our political divide. Andy Beshear's the Democratic governor of a very red Kentucky where the Republican legislature has a veto-proof majority. And Larry Hogan is the Republican governor of a very blue Maryland where the Democratic legislature has a veto-proof majority. And in the spirit of bipartisanship, the two governors agreed to appear together today. So I thank you both. And welcome to both of you.
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Thank you.
GOV. ANDY BESHEAR:
Morning.
CHUCK TODD:
Yes. Governor Beshear, let me start with you. Look, I'm just going to put up the case curve. You know this curve very well with Covid right now. It's astonishing how fast Delta has surged in the state of Kentucky. You're trying to deal with it, but you've been limited in your ability to do certain things by your Republican legislature. What can you get done now to try to slow this surge in Kentucky?
GOV. ANDY BESHEAR:
Well, our situation is dire. We're setting case records. We have a record number of Kentuckians in the hospital battling Covid, in the ICU battling for their lives. We have a record number of families that are praying for their loved one who is on a ventilator and needing that assistance to -- to breathe. A recent Supreme Court case and our legislature limit my ability to do some things like masking. If I had the ability to do it right now, we would have a masking order when you are in public and indoors. We know that's a proven way to slow the spread of the virus and ultimately help our healthcare capacity. But that doesn't mean there aren't things we can do. So I sent the National Guard to our hardest hit hospitals. They do the logistics and free up more clinicians. We've taken over the testing for those hospitals so those nurses, again, can be tending to patients. We've brought in FEMA who have sent some strike teams. And now we've deployed nursing students all over Kentucky, again, to try to provide more staffable beds. It is a challenge. We are hit very, very hard. But we are going to continue to fight. When you're at war, you don't get to cry about what you can or can't do. You've got to do your very best every day because this is a battle of life versus death.
CHUCK TODD:
Governor Hogan, look, you lead a state that has one of the highest vaccination rates in the country. But let's be frank. If two thirds of your electorate were Republican, do you think you'd be this successful?
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Well, look, I think we're very proud of the fact that we're one of the most vaccinated states in the country, and as a result, our metrics are almost completely opposite of what Governor Beshear is dealing with in Kentucky. We -- you know, we have vaccinated 81 percent of all the people that are eligible, everybody 12 and over. 95 percent of our seniors. And, you know, as a result, our hospitalizations are down 70-some percent from their peak. Deaths are down. But we're still dealing with the unvaccinated folks, which account for most of our hospitalizations and deaths. And some of it has to do with the fact that there’s been tremendous disinformation campaigns, and people are believing things that are simply not true. But it's not just in the red areas where we're having difficulties. We're one of the states with the highest percentage of minority populations. And in some of our urban areas, we have similar challenges. But we're doing really well. And I'm pleased with the results of where we are. It's convincing those last, you know, 19 percent of our people that they've got to take action. That's where we're focused on.
CHUCK TODD:
Let's talk about this issue of misinformation. We've got this issue of the dewormer situation, and I think at -- Kentucky Poison Control has had extra calls about this. Governor Beshear, are there just certain groups of people that aren't going to listen to you, and you have to acknowledge that and find other -- other spokespeople to try to convince the unvaccinated to listen to public science -- public health?
GOV. ANDY BESHEAR:
When it comes to misinformation, I really don't think this is a red or a blue issue. It is a fact versus fiction, or a sometimes sane versus insane issue. You know, my first job in life was mucking stalls at a horse farm. Taking a horse dewormer is crazy, under any circumstance. We are well past, I think, all across America, the populations that are going to listen to a government official and take the vaccine because of it. We're probably past even the point where a local official, a pastor or others. Where I think we're at is where people are going to have to break that Thanksgiving dinner rule. They're going to have to call or go see that person they love and care about that is unvaccinated, and they're going to have to put their relationship with that person on the line because they've never been at greater risk. And I think it's that type of caring, and the person who is willing to do that and to make that sacrifice that will finally get through to those that are not vaccinated. That's what we're seeing here in Kentucky. And we need all Americans to do it. Yes, you might lose a friend because of that conversation.
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
GOV. ANDY BESHEAR:
But that friend might lose their life if they don't get vaccinated.
CHUCK TODD:
Governor Hogan, give some advice to the current Covid task force in the Biden administration. Let's talk the issue of a third shot or a booster shot. You're a cancer survivor. You've gotten the booster shot. You've got the former president now out there saying he's not going to take it. And earlier, he seemed to chalk up the idea to some sort of profiteering by Pfizer. I think it's clear the Biden administration can't speak to those folks that need to be spoken to. Who should? And what would be your advice to the Covid task force team on how to talk to the Trump folks?
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Well, I don't think it's just about the Trump folks. I mean, you know, I was fairly critical of President Trump when I thought that they were bad on messaging, when I thought they were doing things wrong and not providing the assistance that -- that we needed in the states. And I've been the same thing with the Biden administration. I mean, we're getting some mixed messagings out of the administration, out of the CDC, the FDA and the White House. And, you know, we need clear guidance on these booster shots because it undermines, you know, the credibility of it. And so they came out with -- I guess they slipped and pre-leaked an announcement about booster shots with all three vaccines and then had to backtrack it and say you can only use Pfizer. What about the people that took J&J? What about the people that took Moderna? They haven't messaged properly about how to take care of these breakthrough infections. Like, look, it does prevent hospitalizations and death, or greatly reduce it. But it's not stopping, you know, people from getting breakthrough infections. So I think the messaging was not clear with either administration. And I think that's one of the ways we've been successful in our state is a clear, direct messaging that people can believe in and listen to. And that's been a problem all over the map.
CHUCK TODD:
Governor Beshear, I'm curious of your thoughts on the Biden Covid task force, and I know you talked about having just a metric that you just -- you know, if you hit the number, mask mandate triggers. If you're below the certain number on infection, no. Why has it been hard to just create a statistical line here? It's like, we know when a tropical storm becomes a hurricane because you measure the -- measure the wind speed. Why has that been difficult with Covid?
GOV. ANDY BESHEAR:
Well, it has been difficult, and it shouldn't be because it's just basic science. And our healthcare providers have been wearing masks for decades. Why? To prevent infection in different areas. I think this is a test of our humanity. I believe that that's what this pandemic is. And remember, a pandemic isn't an issue. It's a virus that's trying to kill as many of us as possible. And so I think it comes down to, are you willing to be selfless and wear that mask, loving your neighbor and protecting them? Or is it more a question of selfish? "I have the right to do whatever I want, even if it causes harm to others." You know, you can't walk into a crowded movie theater and yell, "Fire." Your freedom of speech doesn't extend that far. So let's remember that liberty is the right to live our lives, not to cause someone else's death. That should be pretty easy for people of faith, for people of values. And I hope that we can start living those -- that faith and those values to protect one another once again.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me lift up and talk about the larger challenge of polarization. And the abortion debate, frankly, I think is only going to exasperate our divide here. Both of you, I would -- I could argue, and you may disagree with me, but I'm going to play political analyst here. Both of you have benefited when the other party went too far, right? I could argue that's why you're both governor today. Certainly why you may have a second term, Governor Hogan, and why, Governor Beshear, you're there. Is that the only way to cut through polarization, Governor Hogan? Is when the other party goes too far and then the voters create a check? Is that about it? Because it doesn't seem as if the middle ground gets represented unless one party goes too far.
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Well, it's an interesting -- it’s an interesting idea. I think that may be possible, certainly in our state. You know, they had raised taxes 43 times in a row, even though we're the most Democratic state in America. Even the Democrats got frustrated with that. And so -- but I think right now in America, there are certainly people on both ends of the extremes, on the left and the right, who get all of the attention. The ones that are making the most noise. And that's what we hear about when we're watching television. But about 70 percent of the people actually just are somewhere in the middle. They're moderate or right of center, left of center. They really want their elected officials to try to figure out a way to do something about this toxic politics. And they want us to work together to come up with real bipartisan common sense solutions. Turns out that's the most popular thing in America with most voters.
CHUCK TODD:
Governor Beshear, both you and Governor Hogan have also -- share another thing in common. When you've had some abortion bills come from your legislature, you chose not to veto them, but you chose not to sign them and they just became law. One had to do with some Medicaid funding with Planned Parenthood, I believe, on the Maryland side of things. You, with the current law that's there. How much do you expect abortion to divide your state going forward, and what is your -- do you have a plan on what to do in a post-Roe world?
GOV. ANDY BESHEAR:
Well, I think it remains to be seen exactly what impact this Texas decision will have, especially with another case coming before the Supreme Court here pretty soon. But as the state's former top prosecutor, I have seen the worst of the worst situations. Young girls raped, impregnated, sometimes by members of their own families. I hope whatever comes down the line provides those victims that have been harmed in ways most of us could never imagine the options that they deserve.
CHUCK TODD:
Governor Hogan, do you believe the abortion issue, if it's going to be state by state, you seem to basically say, you know your electorate is perhaps pro-choice. You may be pro-life. And you've sort of taken a hands off approach. Do you believe it should be the sort of public sentiment that should dictate where we go on abortion laws?
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Well, you know, I happen to be personally opposed to abortion. And I believe the states do have rights to pass some reasonable restrictions. But certainly in this case, this bill in Texas seems to be a little bit extreme with this problem of bounties for people that turn in somebody that drove someone to an abortion clinic. So, look, I think the courts, the Supreme Court will take this up. They haven't made the final determination on it. Legislatures have rights to pass bills. Governors have a right to sign them into law or not. And the court gets to make the ultimate decision.
CHUCK TODD:
No, I understand. But do you think this should be something, if it's by the states, should it reflect the will of the people or the will of the elected officials?
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Well, you know, the way our system works is we elect officials and they make decisions for us. The people get to decide whether they want to keep them in office or not. In our state, the voters actually made this determination long before I became governor. My legislature's 70 percent -- more than 70 percent Democratic. And I chose not to try to overturn the will of the legislature or the voters.
CHUCK TODD:
Governor Andy Beshear, Democrat from Kentucky. Larry Hogan, Republican from Maryland. Again, appreciate you both coming on. Believe it or not, this used to be a very common practice here on Meet The Press. It's hopefully something we can keep going. Thank you both.
GOV. ANDY BESHEAR:
Thank you.
GOV.LARRY HOGAN:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, we're going to turn to the issue of abortion and whether the Supreme Court just signaled it's ready to overturn Roe v. Wade. Former Democratic Senator Clare McCaskill and former Republican Congresswoman Barbara Comstock join me next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. The enactment of the Texas abortion law is perhaps a game changing moment in the nearly 50-year battle over Roe v. Wade. When the Supreme Court decline to block what is now the most restrictive abortion law in the country, it sent a signal that the court's conservative majority may be ready to unwind or overturn Roe. And while abortion opponents cheered the move, abortion rights supporters are hoping that the far-reaching law will energize Democratic voters in the next midterm elections. So joining me now are former Democratic Senator Claire McCaskill of Missouri and former Republican Congresswoman Barbara Comstock of Virginia.
Welcome to you both. I appreciate it. Senator McCaskill, Claire, let me start with you on this. And that is this. How much of -- what should the Biden Administration be doing right now, and is there anything the Democrats in Congress or the Biden Administration should be doing that can be done before the next election?
CLAIRE McCASKILL:
Well, I'm not so sure that there's a huge role for Biden and, or Congress right now, other than shouting from the rooftops that this law that the Supreme Court blessed -- and you can try to dress it up and put a bow on it. But they blessed a law that embraces vigilantism. That embraces the most extreme position. And no exception for a 13 year old who's been repeatedly raped by her father, who didn't know she was even pregnant until after six weeks. No exception for that. I mean, Chuck, 63% of America supports Roe v. Wade. I guarantee you 80% of America does not want this law with vigilante embraced by the Supreme Court to become the way of life in America. And -- I-- I really think they've gone too far. And I will not accept both sides on this. This is one party that is doing this, not both parties. This is not the place for, “Oh, both sides are a problem.” No. One side is a problem. I got reelected because of an extreme position on abortion. I believe a lot of Democrats will get elected over this.
CHUCK TODD:
Former Congresswoman Barbara Comstock, do you accept that? That this is being driven more by one party this time, that you can't really have the both sides conversation on this particular topic?
BARBARA COMSTOCK:
Well, this is obviously a polarizing issue and this is a polarizing bill. As someone who is pro-life and has always wanted to, you know, change hearts and minds and, you know, focus on creating a culture of life and respecting the dignity of women and the children, I don't think this is a good bill. And I agree with the Wall Street Journal editorial board that said it was a blunder. And so I do think it's important to point out, because I don't agree with Claire that this majority and minority have clearly said this does not overturn Roe versus Wade. And secondly, a Texas county judge has already blocked the enforcement of it against Planned Parenthood, who didn't have a good legislative strategy. And this is a flawed bill that I expect, because these similar bills have been blocked before and I think fairly quickly, this will be. So I think neither side is going to be pleased with where the court may come down. I think the key issue on abortion from the original Roe decision is the viability issue. And that's where you've had Republicans usually focus is on, you know, we had in I think it was 2016 a bill on banning abortions after 20 weeks, which is sort of the viability area now. And the original Roe decision highlighted viability as part of that. So I think there's going to be -- there needs to be having some calm conversation on this. I think the Supreme Court, when you look at whether it's, you know, Bush v. Gore or the Trump election, these judges who got attacked as being-- they were going to be Trump judges, look. They upheld the Obamacare decision. Let them take up these cases, which they will, I think, shortly. And I think people will be pleasantly surprised where they end up, whether -- you know, I don't think pro-life or pro-choice are going to like the ultimate, where they come down, maybe where the people are in the middle.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, and Claire, this is something -- you brought up the fact you got reelected because you had an opponent that was, went to -- had an extreme position on the idea of rape, if legitimate rape is something that Todd Akin at the time called it. But you look at this Texas law, what is the slippery slope if we go down this idea where you take enforcement and put it into the hands of the people? I mean, I've already seen some folks on the right who don't like what Texas did fear that this could turn into some -- that a blue state could do this on gun issues.
CLAIRE McCASKILL:
Well, let's be clear about what the Republican Party is right now. It's a stewing pot of grievance. And what they have done with this law -- and by the way, they've done it with other laws, too. Republicans. Not Democrats. They've done it on what is taught at school. In my state, they've done it on whether or not local law enforcement enforces federal gun laws. In other states, they've done it on what rights people have that are trans. So this vigilantism, our courts have always operated on a concept of standing. That you are in court because you have standing. What the Republicans are doing is they're giving standing to anybody who's got a social grievance. They're taking the culture wars to a place that our country has never gone. It is dangerous. It is wrong. And the Democratic legislatures are not doing this. These are just Republicans doing this. And I think this goes in the column of, they are only listening to their calcified circle of disinformation and conservative media. They think everybody agrees with them. And it's only about 20% of the country. 80% of the country is not going to like this. And I do believe -- I don't want the Democrats to start doing this kind of BS. It's wrong. We should not be empowering vigilantes to enforce social grievance.
BARBARA COMSTOCK:
Well, Justice Roberts --
CLAIRE McCASKILL:
Whether it's guns --
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah --
CLAIRE McCASKILL:
-- climate, or anything else.
BARBARA COMSTOCK:
Well, Justice Roberts pointed out in his dissent -- he was in the minority here --
CHUCK TODD:
Correct. No longer in control of the court --
BARBARA COMSTOCK:
That this case of whether you can outsource to private parties is a very important issue. And I am confident that will not stand. So that's where all the focus and the inflammation is here. But as you just had that discussion with those governors --
CHUCK TODD:
Right --
BARBARA COMSTOCK:
-- we have had a lot of polarization on whether it's January 6 or Covid. And these issues have always been polarizing. We need calm right now. We don't need another January 6 at the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court knows how to handle these issues and will be doing it quickly, I believe. And then you're going to have -- I mean, look at Ken Paxton, who's the Attorney General, who will be defending this. He lost in court on Obamacare. He lost in three days. The Supreme Court kicked him to the curb on his bogus Trump things. And remember, there were a lot of Democrats saying, "Oh, these judges are going to uphold Trump." Trump even said it. What did they do? They kicked him to the curb. These are judges who follow the law. And that's why they will take up these cases, look at what the established law is, and have them briefed. And I think since the judge in Texas has already said Planned Parenthood --
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah --
BARBARA COMSTOCK:
-- can go forward, this is going to go through the normal process.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you a big picture question, though, on the Republican Party. Can you have Governor Hogan's position? He's personally pro-life, but he essentially allowed pro-choice legislation to pass. Can you have that position and be viable in a Republican primary?
BARBARA COMSTOCK:
Well, look. I think Governor Hogan has been very pro-life throughout the Covid case. Look how he's brought people together. He's got his state vaccinated. And he's worked very well on this --
CHUCK TODD:
You get what I’m saying, but you get what I'm asking, yeah --
BARBARA COMSTOCK:
-- I know. But he understood that his bill would be overridden. I mean, the bill if he had vetoed it. So yes, I do believe. Because everybody understands there are different positions on this, which is why instead of having extremes drive this from both, you know, whether it's a Democrat, right. I mean, look. Claire was attacked by AOC in 2018 when she pointed out that abortion and guns were polarizing the country and that's why she lost. Nancy Pelosi was attacked by Planned Parenthood in 2016 when she said, “I'm not for abortion on demand for the whole nine months,” when we were discussing the 20 -- and then she had to come back and apologize to Planned Parenthood. We have to be able to discuss this. I got attacked for an over the counter birth control bill that Republican women supported. And it wasn't just opposed by right wing men. It was opposed by Planned Parenthood who didn't want the competition in the market. Fortunately, technology has taken that over and you can get it online.
CHUCK TODD:
Claire, is there a reasonable middle ground for the Democratic party on -- it's hard to say sometimes there's a middle ground on abortion. But the public seems -- there is a middle ground there, which is they don't want it completely banned, and they don't want it without some limitations. What does the middle ground look like in a place like Missouri?
CLAIRE McCASKILL:
Well, all the noise is going to be on the far extremes. And I -- listen, I have great respect for Barbara Comstock and who she is and how she held office. But women of America are not calm right now. The Supreme Court had an opportunity to stay this bill. If it was so bad, all they had to do was stay it. And they didn't. And that is telling. And that's why women are not calm right now. They are very upset over the idea that this is going to be allowed in any state in the United States. So is there middle ground? Yeah. And the more extreme the Republican Party keeps becoming -- and the next thing they’re going do -- Missouri says they're going to copy it. They're going to probably do this on immigration. They're going to have vigilantes going out with a tip line. You can get $50,000 if you turn in the employer who has hired somebody who is illegal. That's going to happen unless we do something to stop this extremism in the name of vigilantism in our court system. You know --
BARBARA COMSTOCK:
Well, I mean, --
CLAIRE McCASKILL:
-- this is the Republican Party that used to hate trial lawyers.
BARBARA COMSTOCK:
Well, listen. Exactly --
CLAIRE McCASKILL:
They used to hate the courts --
BARBARA COMSTOCK:
Well, and this -- that's why it's bad --
CLAIRE McCASKILL:
And now they're using the court.
BARBARA COMSTOCK:
That's -- it's bad policy and it's bad law. And if Republicans are going to try and be Todd Akin Republicans, Claire is right. They will not succeed. But we have a lot more Larry Hogans, people like Jaime Herrera Beutler who's pro-life and is the leader on helping women with tough pregnancies and -- and kids who have disabilities. And that's the kind of pro-life community that I've always worked with. And I think that's the one that needs to stand up now.
CHUCK TODD:
I will say this. In the spirit of our polarization broadcast today, Claire McCaskill, Barbara Comstock, you guys for appearing together -- in a very high minded -- discussion. I appreciate both of you. Thank you.
BARBARA COMSTOCK:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, Joe Biden has just come off one of the worst weeks of his presidency. And he has the sinking poll numbers to prove it. But before we go to break, we want to note the passing of an NBC and Today Show legend. We learned yesterday that weatherman, funny man, and every man Willard Scott died this week. Scott was the Today Show weatherman from 1980 until his semi-retirement in 1996. He was a big personality on and off screen. Trust me, when you'd see him in the halls of the D.C. bureau, he always had a big smile on his face. He was perhaps best known, though, for his birthday wishes for people who had turned 100 and beyond. Willard Scott was 87.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. The panel is here: Yamiche Alcindor, moderator of Washington Week on PBS, Washington Post contributing columnist Matt Bai, Republican strategist Brendan Buck and Betsy Woodruff Swan of Politico -- Brendan being the only happy college football fan at this table this morning. Congratulations to your Bulldogs there.
BRENDAN BUCK:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
Someday Miami will be SEC caliber. But I want to start with Joe Biden and where things stand in the Democratic Party. Yamiche, you cover this White House very closely. I want to put up his poll ratings here. Forty-three, 44, 46. We had him at 49, and it was clear two weeks ago that it was, he was still going down, that he hadn't hit bottom. Perhaps this is bottom here. Does the White House think they have an Afghanistan problem or a Covid problem?
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
Well, I'll say this: These numbers underscore a real fact, which is that presidents try to create agendas, but that real-life events and circumstances actually define their agendas. And here you had a president who took such fierce criticism over his withdrawal from Afghanistan, plus the idea that he declared independence of the virus or something close to it, talking about the idea of a return to normalcy on July 4th, only to then have Americans say, "We have to put our masks back on. We have to see children have surging rates of Covid." So, this is the problem that the president is faced with, it’s this idea that he had been talking about solving these problems. He ran on this idea of being a clear-headed, experienced president. And the, and the White House is saying, "We're trying to do this. We understand our number one job is still Covid." But the American people are looking and saying, "Okay, all of this experience means what exactly for my lived experience?" Add to that, of course, the economics of this, right? We have to remember that the economy is the thing that is driving this. And our original sin of this pandemic was polarization and lies. And that is leading people not to get the vaccine. That's also leading people to die of the virus and take dewormers. And now the president and White House officials tell me that it really is about explaining to people that science evolved, explaining to people that challenges are part of the job. And then these poll numbers are really challenging for him.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, it's interesting, I want to put up our poll of just the independent voters because, Betsy, this is who's moving -- the only people that move now in our polarized climate. Democrats don't move up or down. Republicans don't move up or down, right? It's the color of their jersey. It's this small slice of independents. You can see his approval rating sitting at 36 percent now. In April, it was over 50. And that’s -- they’re the, maybe they're, call them the competency voters. They actually, they react to what's happening. They're not happy with how Covid’s going. Whether it's Biden's fault or not, he's the guy at the wheel.
BETSY WOODRUFF SWAN:
It's a nightmare number for the White House. I talked with a Republican strategist about this whole situation yesterday and what that person said is that Afghanistan -- that horror, in a vacuum, probably would not have significantly damaged Biden's poll numbers the way we've seen them change over the last few months. But the point that this particular strategist made is that it's the totality of everything that's happened since April. It's Covid. It's inflation. There's some evidence voters are concerned about the immigration system. And it gives Republicans an opening to argue that things are spiraling out of control for the White House. Whether or not that's accurate, this number kind of tells you what you need to know at least in terms of the way that this administration and this White House are communicating to the American people and to these persuadable independents how exactly they're governing and their ability to shape circumstances rather than be shaped by them.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Matt, Biden's campaign was defined by, “Hey, I’m, this was -- speaking of chaos, Trump was chaos.”
MATT BAI:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
“I’m not going to be chaos.”
MATT BAI:
Right.
CHUCK TODD:
“We're going to be science focused. We're going to be this.” And I wonder if it’s, and some might say, maybe the expectations are too high that he could somehow govern a polarized environment.
MATT BAI:
Well, he wasn't going to stay where he was. And independents, you know, we've seen in the last several administrations, independents will come back to their general skeptical outlook. I don't think this is a panic number. It's not a good number. It's not what they want. They've got a lot of time, you know, things are going to change. And I think, look, I think what he's doing, it's important. To your point, right, he was elected, and he was given a very wide margin because he did represent a return to normalcy and dignity and directness and honesty in the presidency. That's, that’s what people wanted. He held himself out as some return to stability and candor. He has gone out throughout this, and he has spoken directly to the American people several times. He's taken responsibility. He's explaining things. I think that's going to stand him well over time. If that were eroding, then I think you might see a more permanent slide. But, you know, I don't think it's time to conclude that the presidency is hobbled.
CHUCK TODD:
Brendan, is, is Joe Biden being hurt by the fact that Donald Trump's on mute? You know, I mean, he's not there every day reminding people why they ended up supporting Joe Biden?
BRENDAN BUCK:
Yes, actually there was a relatively low bar for Joe Biden. You know, he was basically elected to end chaos. And things were supposed to be better by now. You know, this, I mean, let’s stop. This poll was conducted during the Afghanistan evacuations, so it's not surprising, necessarily, that it, that he took a hit right then. But there is still a real level of anxiety in this country. And I think a lot of it is from Covid, but I think when Joe Biden was elected, you know, you have your partisans on one side or on both sides, but the middle set, I just want to go back to feeling better about my life. And I think a lot of people -- you've got kids going back to school right now, you've got Covid spiking and people are, the anxiety is back. And they just thought that things would be a lot better by now.
CHUCK TODD:
An end to this morass is going to be this fight for the rest of his agenda. Joe Manchin, let me put up what Joe Manchin said, Yamiche. He wants to see a strategic pause, he calls it, on the big $3.5 trillion Build Back Better half of this proposal. Bernie Sanders, pretty blunt, no infrastructure bill without the $3.5 trillion reconciliation bill. The White House is going to have to be the leader here -- not Schumer, not Pelosi, not Pete DeFazio. It's going to have to be Joe Biden. Are they ready to figure out how to get Manchin and Sanders to come together?
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
Based on my conversations at the White House, this is what they're going to be focused on, specifically in September. Now, August, we all can in some ways agree, August was an ugly month. There were so many different challenges. But September could be even worse because you're going to have to have the president on the phone with his own party, saying, "We need to get on the same page when it comes to this reconciliation bill." There is this idea of climate change having come to the front door of the east and the west. Fires on one side of the country, floods in New Jersey. The idea that more people have died of the storm in New Jersey than in other parts of the country, really, I think, scares some people into saying, “We need to be taking action in Congress to deal with this.” But this is going to be Joe Biden. He ran on the idea that he could bring people together. He ran on the idea that, "I know these people. I've been three decades in Congress, three decades in the government and public service. And as a result, I can bring these people together." That's going to be a test for this. And White House officials tell me he's going to be personally involved. He's going to be calling folks. He's going to be spending his time doing this.
CHUCK TODD:
Boy, Betsy, Joe Biden could use a signing ceremony right now. There's a bill that deals with infrastructure that's ready to go, and you see what's happening. I mean, look, I get the strategy behind the scenes, but if you're a person with a flooded basement, you're like going, "We have to do something."
BETSY WOODRUFF SWAN:
If only there were a way. And this, I talked about this with a Democratic strategist yesterday, a Democratic Hill aide, who said part of the problem here is the tension within the House and Senate Democratic conferences. But also one reason that this person found optimism is that both progressives and moderates, who are kind of at each other's throats right now, they both need both of these bills. Progressives need to go back to their districts and say, "We got this spending bill done. We expanded the social safety net." Moderates need to be able to go back to their districts, many that are red-leaning, and say the two most wonderful words that everybody wants to hear, bipartisan infrastructure. And unless they both get done, it won't happen. And that puts a lot of pressure on House Dems that, in some ways, is generating a bit of quiet optimism.
CHUCK TODD:
Very quickly.
MATT BAI:
This is where the, the agenda hits the poll ratings, I think, is that, you know, for Democrats there's always this feeling of more money solves problems. Put more money. Government solves the problem, you're good. For voters, there's a skepticism. There's a trust factor there. Do I know you're going to spend that money well? Do I know you're going to know how to solve that problem with that money? And I think that's where the approval ratings and the dissatisfaction with what the Biden Administration is doing right now may affect their ability to move that agenda.
CHUCK TODD:
Very quickly, Brendan.
BRENDAN BUCK:
New majorities get greedy. There is an infrastructure bill that the president could sign right now if they would just take it. What they need to be able to do is take a win, take a half-loaf if that's what it requires.
CHUCK TODD:
Scoreboard. When we come back, scenes like these in the northeast, as we were just talking about last week, are a sign of what is a changing climate and what that climate has in store for us. After the break, we're going to look at the fastest growing counties in America and how they're at the center of the climate change bullseye. Stick with us.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. It’s Data Download time. This week we saw, once again, the issue of climate change is not a hypothetical. It is here and it is deadly. And with this year's new census numbers, we're learning where people are choosing to move is going to mean that more and more Americans are going to be in places where climate change is having a pretty devastating impact. Let me show you where our movements are. Obviously, the fastest growing cities in America, look at it, they're in the Southwest and in the West. And you already can see where we're headed. The number one thing that brings up is the issue of water and drought issues, as you can see here. Some of the fastest growing counties are in places that are basically water stressed. We already know, with the Colorado River and some restrictions are going there, yet the fastest growing areas are in Phoenix. Are they going to be able to have enough water? Then you've got the issue of rising heat issues. Well, guess what? Some of the fastest growing places in the Southwest also are going to be places where we're going to have some extreme heat. And we already saw what happened with extreme cold weather and the Texas power grid. That's just going to have more implications there. Then, of course, we saw this week what happens when you get extreme rainfall in the Northeast and whether the infrastructure there could hold up, but where you have some fast-growing populations in places that are also getting extreme rainfall, whether it's in the Pacific northwest or down here in the Texas Gulf Coast. And then, of course, where are you going to have more people in line for potentially devastating hurricanes? Those fast-growing areas in Texas and the Gulf Coast mean more people in line for that. The bottom line is this: Our population shifts in this country are going to places where we have a lot of climate-related problems. When we come back, could the abortion ban in Texas, possibly followed by other states, energize the abortion rights advocate vote in the midterms? Stick with us.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. All right, the politics of abortion. Here's where the American public is. When should abortion be legal? The American public is in a very mushy middle. 31% believes abortion should always be legal; 23% say it should be legal most of the time; 34% illegal with some exceptions; and only 8% believe it should be illegal without any exceptions. Brendan Buck, is the Texas -- if abortion is at the top of mind in a political campaign, is this good or bad for the Republican Party in 2022?
BRENDAN BUCK:
Oh, absolutely bad. There has been this -- we have taken for granted for a number of years now that abortion politics animates Republicans and it is good for Republicans. And I just don't know that that holds true anymore. Look at the Kavanaugh fight. We lost in the midterms. We lost the House. And look at 2020. Donald Trump nominated and confirmed three Supreme Court justices. He lost. I just don't know that we can assume that Republicans are going to get animated in the way that Democrats are. You are seeing incredible energy among Democrats coming out saying that they're upset. And I just don't know that this is going to be a conversation that any Republicans want to have. And the evidence of that, do you see any Republicans talking about this right now? No one has --
CHUCK TODD:
I had formers on today to talk about it for a reason, because you didn't want to get any currents.
BRENDAN BUCK:
No one is celebrating this on the right. And it's an uncomfortable conversation that they don't want to have. And I think Democrats are eager to take advantage of it.
BETSY WOODRUFF SWAN:
One thing I would add to that point is if you talk to the leaders of the conservative legal movement in Washington, including leaders who want abortion laws in this country to be more restrictive, they'll tell you two things about this Texas law. The first thing they'll say is they think it's clownish. And the second thing they'll say is that they think it's strategically useful to them because the biggest long-term threat to Roe v. Wade is not this Texas law; it's Mississippi's 15-week abortion ban. That ban will be debated at the Supreme Court in the fall. The Court will rule on it next year. And the fact that Texas has this six-week vigilante justice law makes Mississippi's law look like the moderate compromise position. And it puts Kavanaugh and Amy Coney Barrett, those two justices, in perhaps a much more comfortable spot than it would if Texas hadn't come first.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
The other thing, though, is that Democratic women are horrified, in particular. And women who believe in some sort of abortion are horrified. And that is, at least based on numbers, the majority of women in this country. I can tell you that when the Supreme Court ruling came through, I got calls in the middle of the night from people who wanted to go on the record immediately to say how upset they were. That's not a regular sort of response to a Supreme Court ruling. And what it tells you is that Democrats are going to start to get animated about this issue. That's not what Republicans want. And Republicans, while they might not want to talk about it, this is the consequences of the GOP working for decades to get to this moment. They took over state legislatures. They now have the Supreme Court majority. So, this is also, while they don't want to talk about it, this is what Republicans wanted, even if it's not this exact law, it is this idea that abortion will somehow be curtailed in a real, real way. And Democrats, they feel as though this seems like the thing that could galvanize people on the midterms when they badly need to win the midterms and gain seats.
CHUCK TODD:
Matt, Terry McAuliffe and Gavin Newsom, both who have got their own issues right now.
MATT BAI:
Yes, that tells you something.
CHUCK TODD:
Boy, they grabbed onto this immediately.
MATT BAI:
Well, yes.
CHUCK TODD:
And in the Virginia race, Glenn Youngkin, to back up Brendan's point, was like, "Can we talk about something else?"
MATT BAI:
Well, let's forget base mobilization. If we want to just talk about base mobilization, will it gin up the Democrats or will it gin up the Republicans? This is a party, the Republican Party, that lost women in the last election by what, 15 points? Lost independents by what, nine, ten points? I mean, they can’t afford -- this only helps them in places they're already winning big. I will say though, I do agree with what Congresswoman Comstock was saying. That Court has not said -- I don't think the Court has signaled they're going to overturn Roe v. Wade. I think a majority of the Court has basically said, “it's a procedural issue here and we're going to wait until there's a case in front of us.” I would be shocked if this stood up.
BETSY WOODRUFF SWAN:
That said, from looking at that ruling that came out from this five justices, where they declined to pause the Texas law, one piece of that, one thing that's missing from that very, very brief order that several legal folks noted to me, is that it didn't say explicitly that the Texas law was unconstitutional. Those justices could have said, "This law is blatantly unconstitutional given current Supreme Court precedent." They could have said that --
MATT BAI:
They could have.
BETSY WOODRUFF SWAN:
-- while also pausing the law, but they didn't. And that's something that is an ominous sign to folks who want to protect abortion.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Brendan, legitimate rape became a sticky phrase. And it took down not one Republican Senate candidate, but also a second one in Indiana. This bounty thing, feels like no matter what, it may make Mississippi look reasonable to some people, but the bounty thing has this stickiness to it where even the average person is going to hear about this.
BRENDAN BUCK:
It's an asinine way to set up a law. And you asked the right question of Claire McCaskill, "What stops a California from banning guns by saying you can sue anybody who owns one?" There's nothing conservative about how this is set up. And so, I think it will end up failing, but there are going to be other challenges. And if this ends up being the issue that we're talking about in November, it's not just bad for moderates; it's bad for everybody. Claire McCaskill got elected in red state Missouri on this issue. And if this is the conversation we're having, it's going to be a bad midterm.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
It’s also a conversation that the White House wants to be having. They're scrambling and the president put out that forceful statement immediately saying, "We're going to have an immediate response to this. We're going to have the Department of Justice and the Health and Human Services look at this." The president is standing up, as a Catholic, saying, "I support Roe v. Wade." He doesn't want to be talking about Afghanistan and he doesn't want to be talking about some of the things that are making August and September so challenging for him. But this is something that he can stand up and say, "I believe this and I will try my best to do something about it."
CHUCK TODD:
Here's what's going to happen. Every elected official is going to have to go on the record with specifics now on their abortion position. And they've ducked that for 30 years. So, we shall see. Terrific panel. Thank you, guys. That's all we have for today. Enjoy the rest of your Labor Day weekend. Thanks for watching, and we'll be back next week because, if it's Sunday, it's Meet The Press.