CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday: Joe Biden's troubled presidency.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Do you want to be the side -- on the side of Dr. King or George Wallace?
CHUCK TODD:After making a last-minute plea for voting rights legislation --
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Will we choose democracy over autocracy? I know where I stand.
CHUCK TODD:
-- President Biden concedes defeat --
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
We missed this time.
CHUCK TODD:
-- when Democratic Senator Kyrsten Sinema says “no” to reforming the filibuster.
SEN. KYRSTEN SINEMA:
I will not support separate actions that worsen the underlying disease of division infecting our country.
CHUCK TODD:
With his poll numbers falling and his agenda stalled, how does Joe Biden repair his presidency in year two? My guests this morning: Democratic Congressman Jim Clyburn of South Carolina and Democratic strategist James Carville. Plus, growing fears that Russia is taking steps to invade Ukraine.
JAKE SULLIVAN:
We have been very clear with Russia on the costs and consequences of further military action.
CHUCK TODD:
And now the U.S. is accusing Russia of sending saboteurs into Ukraine to create an excuse for an invasion. I'll talk to Republican Senator Mitt Romney of Utah about that and about the state of the Biden presidency. Also, the Covid surge.
DR. ROBERT WACHTER:
There are many hospitals in the country that are simply on their knees. They are overwhelmed.
CHUCK TODD:
Cases, hospitalizations, deaths all on the rise. Testing too. But is that too late?
CRAIG MELVIN:
Should we have done it sooner?
VICE PRES. KAMALA HARRIS:
We are doing it.
CRAIG MELVIN:
But should it have been done sooner?
VICE PRES. KAMALA HARRIS:
We are doing it.
CHUCK TODD:
Are rural hospitals ready for this wave? Joining me for insight and analysis are: NBC News Chief Washington correspondent Andrea Mitchell, Washington Post columnist Eugene Robinson, PBS NewsHour Chief correspondent Amna Nawaz and Matthew Continetti of the American Enterprise Institute. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning. Every new administration enters office with an agenda of optimism. For President Biden, the plan was that Covid would be defeated, the economy would fully recover and he would be able to deliver a return to normalcy. But plans have a way of going sideways. A year into Mr. Biden's presidency, unemployment is down and wages are up, but inflation is also up to a 40-year high. Infrastructure and Covid relief bills were passed, but Build Back Better is stuck in neutral. And most important, though vaccines are available and effective, Delta and Omicron have dealt a one-two punch to the economy, the supply chain and that promised return to normalcy. And on Thursday the Supreme Court blocked Mr. Biden's "vaccine or test" mandate for large businesses, perhaps taking away the last effective tool in his Covid toolbox. That same day Mr. Biden's last-minute push for voting rights bills was dealt a likely fatal blow. Democratic Senator Kyrsten Sinema said again what she's been saying for months. She is opposed to changing the filibuster to pass the legislation. So, now what? All of this came just as the president was heading, by the way, to Capitol Hill to lobby fellow Democrats to change the Senate rules. So it was quite the exclamation point on a terrible week.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
This is something we did get done.
CHUCK TODD:
President Biden - after one of the worst weeks of his presidency -- touting the infrastructure bill he signed two months ago.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
There's a lot of talk about disappointments and things we haven't gotten done. We're going to get a lot of them done, I might add.
CHUCK TODD:
With the looming failure of voting rights legislation --
SEN. KYRSTEN SINEMA:
I will not support separate actions that worsen the underlying disease of division.
CHUCK TODD:
-- and his economic plan, Build Back Better, stalled in the Senate --
SEN. JOE MANCHIN:
I cannot vote to continue with this piece of legislation. I just can't.
CHUCK TODD:
-- President Biden has been unable to bridge the wide gap between progressives and moderates in his own party and is satisfying neither group.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
It is about the Democratic party trying to restore faith with the American people that they actually stand for something.
REP. TIM RYAN:
Democrats need to step up and lead this country.
CHUCK TODD:
Many Democrats are calling for a reset, worried a stalled legislative agenda will hurt the party, which is already facing headwinds this fall. And a year after promising a change in tone --
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
We can join forces, stop the shouting and lower the temperature.
CHUCK TODD:
-- President Biden has failed so far to do that.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Do you want to be the side -- on the side of Dr. King or George Wallace? Do you want to be on the side of John Lewis or Bull Connor?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
So much for unifying the country.
SEN. DICK DURBIN:
Perhaps the president went a little too far in his rhetoric.
CHUCK TODD:
Outside of the infrastructure bill, a significant victory, Mr. Biden has been unable to build a small coalition of governing Republicans to make the public effort at bipartisanship that some swing state Democrats had been pleading for.
SEN. KYRSTEN SINEMA:
I wish there had been a more serious effort on the part of Democratic Party leaders to sit down with the other party.
CHUCK TODD:For the third time in just over three months, President Biden went to Capitol Hill in person, this time for voting rights --
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
The honest to god answer is I don’t know whether we can get this done.
CHUCK TODD:
-- and for a third time, walked away with nothing to announce. One year in, Mr. Biden has the second-lowest approval rating ever measured in the White House and has never been less popular nationally.
MAN:
These guys said that they were coming -- going to come in and bring competence, but the only thing they've really brought into Washington is that they're not Donald Trump.
CHUCK TODD:
President Biden successfully passed Covid relief legislation and the infrastructure bill, but has failed so far to move not just voting rights, but police reform --
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Let’s get it done next month
CHUCK TODD:
-- gun control legislation --
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
We can do this and save lives.
CHUCK TODD:
-- and to fulfill his promises on climate change.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
We are resolving to take action.
CHUCK TODD:
He struggled on the chaotic Afghanistan pullout and on the economy. While a record number of jobs have been created this year, inflation is at a forty-year high.
SEN. JOHN BARRASSO:
Joe Biden is the president of high prices.
CHUCK TODD:
Perhaps most consequentially for November, Biden, who ran for president promising to beat Covid, has failed to beat it back.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I have concerns about the pandemic just because, worldwide, it’s not slowing up very much.
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is Congressman Jim Clyburn of South Carolina, whose endorsement of Joe Biden was critical in helping him secure the Democratic nomination. Congressman Clyburn, it's always a pleasure to have you. Welcome back to Meet the Press.
REP. JIM CLYBURN:
Thank you very much for having me back.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to start with something that's in today's New York Times written by somebody I think you know pretty well. It's Bishop Reginald Jackson. And he wrote an op-ed pretty frustrated on the voting rights issue. And he – let me read you this excerpt. He says, "Last week, in their speeches, Mr. Biden and Ms. Harris strongly and passionately denounced the law," meaning the Georgia voting law changes that took place. "But as they spoke, I kept asking myself where had that strength and passion been during the past 10 months?" And congressman, I'll just put up this little graphic that we put together here of presidential events, in-person events with the president. He did 60-some events on Covid, not surprising; over the last year, 39 on either Build Back Better or infrastructure; and we only have two where he focused on voting rights, and the second event was that speech in Atlanta. Do you agree with Bishop Jackson, that he didn't do enough in the last year?
REP. JIM CLYBURN:
Well, I see the frustrations that Bishop Jackson has. I know Bishop Jackson very well. I'm in AME myself. The fact of the matter is, he did not have to deal with the Senate on Covid-19 or the infrastructure bill. He had to deal with the Senate on this so-called filibuster for voting rights. And that's not new. That's been around. My senior year in high school, 1957, is when my state’s senator, United States Senator Strom Thurmond, set the filibuster record against voting rights. And it's been there since the '60s. So that is an issue that the president tried to work around. So, we needed to get Covid-19 under control. And I think the president has done a good job of that. Hopefully, we will never run out of the Greek alphabet. We haven't yet. Omicron has given us a problem that nobody expected. We remembered the Delta and what it had visited upon us. So, you've got to work. People have got to be in good health, or these other things don't matter. I learned that in early age. So, people need to go to work. People need to go to school. People need to do a lot of things. But you've got to get their health squared away first. So, I think the priorities were in the right place.
CHUCK TODD:
So, let's talk about, now, voting rights going forward. You spoke the other day. You expressed some openness that, look, the Electoral Vote Act is not something you want to do first. You would prefer to do the voting rights bills first. But you seem open to doing something there. And since there is a bipartisan interest in doing something there, do you think you could build a bill out – perhaps with Mitt Romney who will be on the show later – put a bill together that might fix what we saw on January 6th, protect election workers – and I think you even mentioned perhaps even getting the Voting Rights Act preclearance issues in that bill? Is that something you think is worth pursuing?
REP. JIM CLYBURN:
Absolutely. But I also think it's worth us having this vote. You need to find out -- you know, back in the '60s, we used to sing a song. John Lewis loved that song: “Which Side Are You On?” We always know that there are people who are freedom fighters. And there are also people who would rather have favor. And so, we know that. People tell me they are for this legislation, but they're against the processes that we need in order to get the legislation, then I don't think you're on the right side of history. So, we've got to fight. We've got to have these votes. We've got to see which side people are on. And if that were to fail, as people project it will, then what's the next best thing? Remember now, the Electoral College will not kick in until 2024. I want to know what's going to happen in 2022 when someone is standing in that line and needs a drink of water. When you've got these six- or seven-hour waits in line in Black communities, and 20 minutes in white communities. When you've got a committee there set to overturn your vote if they don't like the outcome. So, that's the thing that we need to do now. And that has to be done before we have any other elections in this country. And so 2024, we've got a lot of time for that.
CHUCK TODD:
I understand that. So, you want this vote to go ahead next week. I'm just curious --
REP. JIM CLYBURN:
Absolutely.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think, do you worry at all that it's just going to shine a spotlight on Democratic disunity, where suddenly it's a pile-on Sinema and Manchin, right? It is Democrats versus Democrats here. And as you know, that can get demoralizing in an election year.
REP. JIM CLYBURN:
Yes, that is always a threat. But the fact of the matter is – I have said it and I'm going to say it again – we need to know who is with us and who is not, so we will know how to conduct ourselves going forward. We operate now in the blind. Let's have these votes. Let people have this debate. And let's see where we stand, so we will know how to conduct ourselves.
CHUCK TODD:
Did you have a problem with President Biden's remarks? We know that Dick Durbin thought they went too far. Mitt Romney took issue with feeling as if he was being lumped in with the Bull Connors and the George Wallaces of the world. He thought that wasn't fair. What did you make of the president's remarks?
REP. JIM CLYBURN:
I endorse them wholeheartedly. Look, when we came out of Reconstruction in 1876, we started losing the right to vote. We started losing other freedoms, and we called it Jim Crow. We had a very successful election in 2020. People voted at higher levels than they ever had before. And in reaction to that, Georgia, Texas and 17 other states started passing draconian voting rights laws. That, to me, is Jim Crow 2.0. And so I like the way the president said it because that's exactly what it is.
CHUCK TODD:
You are somebody who is a pragmatic when it comes to the political landscape. What's your advice to the president here, and your -- what do you need from the president to improve Democrats' chances in 2022?
REP. JIM CLYBURN:
I think he's on message. Stay on message. Don't let people get him off message. You know, my father was a fundamentalist minister. He used to say to me all the time, "Son, the darkest hour of the night is that moment just before dawn." So yes, things may look dark. Keep pressing. When we came out of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, people told us we couldn't get voting. And we got voting the following year in '65. It may look bleak now, but we are going to keep pressing. We are not going to give in on this because I am convinced that the people of goodwill are going to step up and help us get this done.
CHUCK TODD:
Congressman Jim Clyburn, Democrat from South Carolina, always appreciate getting your perspective on the show. Thank you, sir.
REP. JIM CLYBURN:
Thank you very much for having me.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. Joining me now is a familiar face, Democratic strategist James Carville. He's been pretty outspoken about what he thinks Democrats need to do and need to stop doing to stay in power in 2022. James, welcome back to Meet the Press, sir.
JAMES CARVILLE:
Thank you, Chuck. Appreciate it.
CHUCK TODD:
I know you’re -- let me start with what we're seeing right now. We're, we’re about to be at the one-year mark. It's a tough moment for this presidency. And I know you've argued 2021 is the greatest story never told. But I'm curious. You have a public that is just in a bad mood. You just know they are, right, Covid. They're in a bad mood. How do you sell the good stuff that you believe he can sell to a country that's not very receptive right now?
JAMES CARVILLE:
You gloat, and you promote. You talk about the fact that – we pretend to care about child poverty, although no columnist that I read in the paper ever talks about it. It's the lowest child poverty rate we've had in history. We claim that we care about hourly workers. Hourly workers today have more leverage at any time they've ever had in my 77 years of existence on this planet, right? You talk about, we want jobs -- 6.4 million jobs, more jobs than any president ever created in the first term. What you do, Chuck, is you run on what you've got. You don't run on what you didn't get. And the stuff you've got is pretty good. If they don't pass voting rights, if they don't pass Build Back Better, run on that in 2022. All they're going to run on is the 2020 election returns or getting Adam Schiff or Jamie Raskin back with revenge. So, just focus on what you've got, what you've done and what you want to do to make people's lives better. That's it. You've got to go out, and you've got to gloat and you've got to promote. And if inflation is still at 7% in November this year, we'll lose anyway. But I don’t think -- a lot of people don't think that's going to be the case.
CHUCK TODD:
You've got a situation right now. The Biden coalition -- nobody's happy. Progressives aren't happy right now with how Build Back Better has gone. African American activists are not happy about how voting rights has gone. And if you look at the polling, the – honestly the thing that's cratering the most are independents. You know, the folks that just wanted the temperature turned down. You're the president. What do you fix first?
JAMES CARVILLE:
Well, first of all, I agree with my friend, Jim Clyburn. There's an expression that I love. It's called "soldier on," right? And I don't think we have sufficiently -- if you're a part of the Democratic base and you don't care about child poverty, and you don't care about hourly workers, then you're really not a Democrat, right? Now, I think a lot of the Democratic base has not been told or informed of the things that, that that President Biden and this Congress has accomplished. But to me, those are the things that, that if I'm a Democratic, I much more care about that than some word in a dictionary -- that children are going to bed with a full stomach and a warm, you know, a warm house. I care that somebody, an hourly worker is not sitting there working away at $7.25 an hour. And I see these signs all over, even in Louisiana and south Mississippi, $700 signing bonus. Those are, those are real accomplishments. And it's something that you can run on. And again, you don't talk about what you didn't get. That's what these -- Democrats whine too much, Chuck. Just quit being a whiny party. And get out there and, and fight, and tell people what you did. And tell people the exact truth. The Republican Party stands for nothing other than, "Let's relitigate the 2020 election," or, "Let's get back at Jamie Raskin." That's it. That's the entire platform.
CHUCK TODD:
Is there something Joe Biden can learn about the experience you helped Bill Clinton get through after '94?
JAMES CARVILLE:
Soldier on. You know, you had a bad week, but you had a good year. People going -- people at the end of the day, are going to judge you on your, your year and not your week. And this is a tough, hard business. And you've got ups and downs. You got, you get bruised, you get beat up. But every president goes through this. I think President Biden to have -- compared his record on what's been told is a huge differential. And I think that they're trying. I saw they were doing -- you know, I've been talking about infrastructure since Eisenhower built the interstate highway system. Now, we've got a trillion dollars' worth of infrastructure coming up. The children that are not living in poverty today are going to ride on better roads, have better broadband, cross better bridges. I mean, this is something we ought to be really proud of as Americans and we ought to talk about it, we ought to brag about it, we ought to tell people about it. If we do those kinds of things, we'll end up with a better outcome, I promise you.
CHUCK TODD:
James Carville, always a pleasure, sir. And I know you got a kick out --
JAMES CARVILLE:
Thank you Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
-- of those LSU boys winning up in Cincinnati. So, I know you're happy about that.
JAMES CARVILLE:
All right. Go Tigers.
CHUCK TODD:
All right.
JAMES CARVILLE:
Burrow and Chase, kicking it.The U is the right track, too, dude. I'll tell you.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. Thank you, sir. Up next, the US says --
JAMES CARVILLE::
You bet --
CHUCK TODD:
-- there's new evidence that Vladimir Putin is establishing a pretext for a Russian invasion of Ukraine. I'm going to talk to Senator Mitt Romney of the Foreign Relations Committee about that, and a lot more when we come back.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. The Biden administration is warning there's new evidence that Russia's planning to invade Ukraine. The U.S. is accusing Russia of sending saboteurs into Ukraine in a false-flag operation in order to create a pretext for an invasion. A week of U.S.-Russian diplomatic talks failed to ease the tensions over Ukraine. The U.S. wants Russia to pull back its roughly 100,000 troops massed at Ukraine's border and Russia wants NATO to pull its forces from Eastern Europe back to 1997 levels and a guarantee that Ukraine or really any other European country will never join NATO. So, joining me now is Republican Senator Mitt Romney of Utah. He's a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and he's been someone who's been warning about the threat of Russia for years. Senator, welcome back to Meet the Press. Always a pleasure.
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
Thanks, Chuck. Good to be with you.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me start with the current situation. It looks like talks failed. I guess my question is, I know you're probably somebody who says don't give up on diplomacy, but is there a point where we're rewarding Putin with, by keeping the talks up?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
Oh, I think it's fine to continue to talk, but I think the most important talk we have is with our allies and making sure that Russia understands that if they take action to overthrow the government in Ukraine or to invade Ukraine, that there will be consequences of a severe nature.
We didn't do that as effectively as we should have after the invasion by Russia of Georgia, after their prior invasion taking Crimea. They've got to understand that there will be extraordinary consequence. And military options are things we don't talk about, but other consequences we can align with our neighbors and make sure – excuse me, with our allies and make sure that the Russians understand that this time, it's going to make a real difference.
CHUCK TODD:
What does that look like? And why should Putin believe it if he somehow made it through all these tough sanctions before and he's probably calculated, probably correctly, that there isn't a political will for the U.S. to engage militarily? So, what is it that the U.S. could do that could really convince Putin he should back down?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
Well, the clearest thing we can do is to make sure he doesn't have the Nord Stream 2 pipeline. As you know, that's a gas pipeline that provides extraordinary wealth to Putin and to Russia. It bypasses Ukraine. And the big mistake we made is to allow him to build that, to bypass Ukraine – we should let him know that Nord Stream 2 pipeline is not going to operate. He is not going to have that wealth. If he does any action to overthrow the government in Ukraine, that's getting shut down. I'd shut it down now, as a matter of fact – a huge error not to have done so already.
And then, I think, the type of sanctions we put in place have to be of a different nature than those we've had in the past. And he has to understand that it's not just the U.S., but it's Germany and it's the U.K. and France and all of the E.U. are going to come together on a collective basis. Look, we recognize Vladimir Putin wants to reestablish a type of the Soviet Union. McCain used to joke that Russia is a gas station parading as a country. No one buys anything from Russia other than military hardware. Their population is, what, 1/10th of what China's is going to be. And so, he's trying to reestablish what he had before. That can't be allowed to happen. And that's something that we're going to have to come together and strengthen NATO. He's trying to take NATO apart, to weaken it. We need a strong NATO, not just for Russia, but for the emergence of China.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, if he goes into Ukraine, are you supportive of this idea that, we've been very public saying we do, which I think’s part of the warning shots to Putin, of us supporting an insurgency, basically what we did to the Soviets in Afghanistan and, arguably, what others may have done to us in Afghanistan?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
Absolutely. I think he has to understand that the consequences are going to be significant. And will there be insurgency there? Yeah, the Ukraine people are proud and they know how to fight for the things they believe in and for their independence. And that, and other features, are going to be effective by virtue of Russia's malevolent action.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, in your opening op-ed as a senator, you wrote that, "In order for America to re-assume its leadership in world politics, the country had to repair failings in our politics at home." It was obvious what you were pointing to at the time. Frankly, things look worse than it was when you penned that op-ed in 2019. But I am curious, where do you think we stand? I mean, if you just read the New York Times op-ed page this week, I think there were two columns on civil war, one about America is coming apart at the seams. Is that where you are? Where do you think the nation is right now?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
Well, there's no question but that the nation is severely divided. President Biden said he was going to try to unite the country. Obviously, as you pointed out in the last segment, his comments in Georgia did not suggest he's trying to pull us back together again. He's got to recognize that when he was elected, people were not looking for him to transform America. They were looking to get back to normal, to stop the crazy. And it seems like we're continuing to see the kinds of policy and promotions that are not accepted by the American people. Look, James Carville just said that, you know, he's had a bad week, but not a bad year. No, no, as a matter of fact, he's had a bad year. He's had 52 weeks of bad weeks. I mean, people are 7% poorer now because of Biden inflation. Gasoline prices are, what, 50% higher than they were when he took office. The border is a mess. Covid was resurgent, but he didn't have a place the tests people needed to keep themselves safe. And then, of course, there was the disaster in Afghanistan. Russia's now threatening Ukraine. Things are not going well. And the president needs to stop and reset and say what is it he's trying to accomplish. And if it's to try and transform America, he is not going to unite us. Bringing us together means finding a way to work on a bipartisan basis. He had one success, the infrastructure bill, and that was done by Republicans and Democrats in the Senate working together. Build on that kind of success.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, here's the thing with that, and this is what the White House would push back on you on, and they would say this, 147 House Republicans basically don't accept the idea that he won fair and square. You yourself thought he had a really tough challenge to bring unity together when you have half the country not believing the results. There are only a handful of you willing to work with him. So, what do you do?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
Well, actually, there are a lot more than a handful that are willing to work with the president. We're willing to work on issues that we care very deeply about. And so, we care, for instance, about family security and making sure that our kids have the resources they need to be able to have a bright future. We care about education. We care about health care. We obviously care about infrastructure. There's a lot that we can do together. We care about immigration. These are things we can do together. And the president's been in the Senate. He knows what it's like and how you have to work on a bipartisan basis. But the idea of saying blow up bipartisanship and just let whose ever got the slight majority to do whatever they want – that's not the right way to get things done in America and it's not the way to unite America. Uniting America finds a pathway in bringing people together and working on a collaborative basis.
CHUCK TODD:
If the president calls you up tomorrow and says, "Senator Romney, I'd like to figure out something on voting rights. Can we sit down and have a conversation?" You heard Jim Clyburn about the Electoral Vote Act. Look, it may not be what some want on the left, but is that a place to begin and would you participate in that process?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
Yeah, and Chuck, I already am. The group, about 12 Senators, Republicans and Democrats, that are working on the Electoral Count Act, we'll continue to work together. Sadly, this election reform bill that the president has been pushing, I never got a call on that from the White House.
There was no negotiation, bringing in Republicans and Democrats together to try and come up with something that would meet bipartisan interests. Sure, we can work together on almost every issue where there's common ground. I would note on this, that on the bill they put together, that they want a real dramatic change, which is they feel that instead of elections being run at the state level, they should really be managed and run at the federal level. And recognize the founders didn't have that vision in mind. They didn't want an autocrat to be able to pull a lever in one place and change all the election laws. Instead, they spread that out over 50 states, I think, in part to keep autocracy from finding its root here in this country. So, we can work together. And I think it's important to reform the Electoral Count Act to do so.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, I understand you don't want to federalize elections. Are you comfortable with creating sort of floors, you know, that you've got to offer, that you should -- take Jim Clyburn's complaint that basically African Americans spend longer in line than other voters. If you have a state that has that issue, are you for a baseline that says, "Hey, you can't have those discrepancies. You’ve got to – we're not going to tell you how to fix that discrepancy, but you have to fix that discrepancy"? That's what the Voting Rights Act, some believe, is for. Are you in favor of things like that?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
Well, the answer is of course. And that's what exists in the 1965 voting rights legislation that is still the law of the land. And that is you cannot have practices which discriminate against people based upon their ethnicity. And that's why the Justice Department is using that act, actually as we speak, to go after one state that has apparently, according to the Justice Department, gone across that line. So, we have laws to prevent discrimination based upon race, and that should be the case. But what I think we have to point out here is that a state like Georgia – which everybody's talking about because the president went there – it's easier to vote in Georgia, even under the new legislation, than it is to vote in Delaware or to vote in New York or to vote in New Jersey. And no one is saying that, oh, New York has discriminatory practices. No, New York's practices are more stringent, more difficult to vote there than Georgia. So, this is clearly a political play to appeal to a base in the Democratic Party and an effort to really work at a bipartisan basis hasn't happened yet.
CHUCK TODD:
Senator, two quick questions before I let you go. Senator Lindsey Graham said he couldn't support Mitch McConnell if he doesn't develop a working relationship with Donald Trump. Is that a litmus test that you think is fair?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
Oh, I think there's full support for Mitch McConnell, no question about that. I haven't heard anything other than a solid support for his continued leadership. People are always trying to placate Donald Trump. I don't fall in that camp, of course. But I wouldn't attribute that as a comment about Mitch McConnell as much as a comment about Donald Trump.
CHUCK TODD:
And the January 6th Committee, what you've seen with its investigation, do you believe what they're doing is legitimate?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
Well, there's no question but that they are finding things that we didn't know. And I think that's appropriate. Look, there was an attack on the United States Capitol. There was an effort to try and prevent the peaceful transfer of power. That's unacceptable. And we need to understand why there was not a rescue effort launched well before what finally came. And they're delving into that. I think it's an important and legitimate effort.
CHUCK TODD:
Senator Mitt Romney, Republican from Utah, I really appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us this morning, sir. Thank you and happy new ear.
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
Thanks, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, how does President Biden dig his administration out of this hole and avoid a midterm disaster for his party? The panel is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. The panel is joining us. PBS NewsHour Chief Correspondent Amna Nawaz, NBC News Chief Washington Correspondent Andrea Mitchell, Washington Post columnist Eugene Robinson and Matthew Continetti of the American Enterprise Institute. Look, I'm going to start with something. It was -- frankly, it was Jonah Goldberg's newsletter that sort of made us put these two things together. But here's a bit from the president's inaugural, coupled with what he spoke with on Tuesday.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
This is our historic moment of crisis and challenge, and unity is the path forward. And we must meet this moment as the United States of America. Do you want to be the side -- on the side of Dr. King or George Wallace? Do you want to be on the side of John Lewis or Bull Connor? Do you want to be on the side of Abraham Lincoln or Jefferson Davis?
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Now, I think it was James Carville's book that said, "All's fair in love and politics," meaning that there’s nothing -- some people think there's nothing unfair in politics. It is what it is sometimes. Mitt Romney took offense to that change in tone. Was it, was it too harsh?
EUGENE ROBINSON:
Well, you know, voting rights is a crucial, important issue. And, I mean, you were talking with Mitt Romney about shouldn't there be a floor, shouldn't there be a standard for elections? And yes, there should be a standard that includes New York and Delaware and New Jersey, but that deals with some of these clearly anti-democratic voter suppression laws that are being passed around the country in response to the big lie about the 2020 election. And so yeah, he -- President Biden got worked up about that, and I get worked up about that, you know? I think it's an important issue. And so, you know, can't we unite around the idea that everyone should be able to vote freely and have their vote counted fairly?
CHUCK TODD:
Andrea, I think the issue though is, has he done it -- has he done enough to -- I mean, look, Romney said he wasn't invited on voting rights. I think we all think he would've come to any meeting that the president asked for.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Well, that is the question. That's the one thing about Senator Sinema's speech, and I had a lot of problems publicly with her timing – a freshman senator making that speech as the motorcade was warming up, the leader of your party is coming to make this appeal to the Democratic caucus – was so in your face. Everyone knew where she stood, but to do it so publicly. That said, not reaching out to Romney, not reaching out to this group of 12 is such a critical mistake. It could be done, you know, to try to find along the margins. And there may well be a compromise that could've been available and still might be available. And you said earlier this week, Chuck, on MTP Daily was this just messaging, you know, or was this, you know, trying to placate the base, or was this a real strategy? It wasn't a strategy. And it was messaging. And it was great rhetoric. But was there something in the middle?
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Amna, I was told by somebody in the White House that, look, they’re like, “The activists are angry. He had to do this." Like, that was the argument. If he didn't do this, they weren't going to have people to lick envelopes in Senate races and House races. But did he -- the curious question I have is do they really go through with this vote next week and highlight Democratic disunity for the second week?
AMNA NAWAZ:
Yeah, I think they do because they want to show, as the president has said repeatedly, where you stand. You know, history will judge, as he said --
CHUCK TODD:
That's what Clyburn said. Yeah.
AMNA NAWAZ:
Yeah. And the president has said it too. History will judge where you stand on this one issue. You can see people running on this in '22. And you have to be able to message to your core supporters. I mean, you look at who the Democratic base is. Who has benefited from the deliberate, intentional work to expand voting rights and voting access? Those are people of color. Those are women, women of color, poor people in America. If they are not messaging that "We are fighting for you" in some way, I'm not sure what the other message is right now when they're still fighting Covid and clawing back on the economy in the way that they are. That said, those activists, you saw them angry because they said, "These are just words. These are not actions.
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
AMNA NAWAZ:
If you were serious, we would've seen this kind of rhetoric much earlier in your presidency."
CHUCK TODD:
Sometimes you see this on the right when it comes to the abortion issue, where candidates will give rhetoric, and then activists will say, "It's just rhetoric."
MATTHEW CONTINETTI:
But, of course, you don't win elections on your base alone. And Biden's political problem now is that Independents have abandoned him. Hispanics are in the process of abandoning him. So, you can reach out to the base. He can try to placate the base, as he's done for much of the last year. It's not going to help him in 2022. He needs to adopt a center-out strategy, instead of a left-in strategy. And he also needs to start acting like a president. I mean, you mentioned the motorcade, Andrea. He's been acting more like the head of the Senate Democratic Caucus than the president of the United States of America. He should not keep going up to Capitol Hill. This is I think the third time he's visited Capitol Hill and failed. He needs to stay at 1600 Pennsylvania.
CHUCK TODD:
Gene, we were talking about this as a staff.
EUGENE ROBINSON:
Yeah. I do agree.
CHUCK TODD:
When does a president ever get good marks for working with Congress? Like, it usually drags you down.
EUGENE ROBINSON:
Right. I do agree. I think there should be more sitting in the White House, summoning people and saying, "You come to me" and, you know, that sends a signal. That said, there is a time, you know, and place for everything in politics. And there is a time when you have to, when you have to talk to the base. And, and there is a time when you, you know, try to expand and, and go up. President Biden has another three years before he, you know, almost, before he would have to stand for election again. And there is time before the midterm. Midterm is, you know, is it really going to be about President Biden's stance on voting? I don't think the midterm is going to be about that.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
It's going to be about inflation.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, and you heard Carville say there, and he's not wrong about that. I mean, inflation whipped three presidents in the '70s.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
But there's time to do some compromise on voting rights, which Clyburn acknowledged.
CHUCK TODD:
What is the legislative window, realistically at this point, before the campaign season just throws it, you know, makes it impossible?
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Well, I think, you know, Congressman Clyburn is also right, as you said, you know, "Where do you stand?" They did want this vote. They want this vote to show exactly where the Republicans stand because they want to run with the base against Republicans on voting rights.
CHUCK TODD:
But what if it’s 50 -- what if it’s --
MATTHEW CONTINETTI:
What if that shows where Democrats stand? I think that’s a problem for them.
CHUCK TODD:
I was just going to say what if it ends up showing -- I don't think it'll be just two Democrats that vote against getting rid of the filibuster.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
No.
CHUCK TODD:
You may have three, four, five.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Well, maybe not. And --
EUGENE ROBINSON:
Maybe.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
-- I think there’s still -- I think there is still a chance to have it as an election issue, to lose this vote, and to come up with a compromise that goes beyond the Electoral College recount --
MATTHEW CONTINETTI:
I don't think --
ANDREA MITCHELL:
– that includes perhaps, you know, some of the other aspects of voting rights between now and, let's say, the summer --
MATTHEW CONTINETTI:
I don't think --
ANDREA MITCHELL:
-- early summer.
MATTHEW CONTINETTI:
-- Mark Kelly and Jeanne Shaheen want to vote to abolish the filibuster.
CHUCK TODD:
I think you mean Maggie Hassan.
MATTHEW CONTINETTI:
Maggie Hassan.
CHUCK TODD:
Because she's the one that's up. Right, right, right. That's the question. I think they will --
MATTHEW CONTINETTI:
Right, Hassan and Mark Kelly in Arizona. Right, but --
CHUCK TODD:
If the other two did --
MATTHEW CONTINETTI:
-- they don't want it.
CHUCK TODD:
-- did it. Right, that's the question. Amna --
AMNA NAWAZ:
But maybe you --
CHUCK TODD:
--what is the window?
AMNA NAWAZ:
-- get those, to Andrea's point. I think if there are steps ahead, it will be for those individual kinds of things that some of the existing legislation would've done, the pre-clearance, maybe campaign finance disclosures, making it harder for partisan gerrymandering. The funny thing is though when you talk about this, obviously, all of those things were in this legislation. That Freedom to Vote Act was the compromise. I don't think we say that enough either. That was the smaller --
CHUCK TODD:
That was the Democratic --
AMNA NAWAZ:
-- narrower --
CHUCK TODD:
-- compromise.
AMNA NAWAZ:
-- compromise.
CHUCK TODD:
It was the Democratic compromise.
AMNA NAWAZ:
Correct, that Manchin was in on.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
But Manchin had signed off on it.
CHUCK TODD:
And you know what we didn't talk about, and I'm trying to figure out how they're going to do that, is Build Back Better and this voting rights compromise. Anyway, it's going to be a busy spring or a frustrating one for Democrats. When we come back, Covid case numbers are still breaking records, mostly in urban areas. But are the rural hospitals ready for what may be coming their way?
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Data Download time and a look at our current Covid surge and how various parts of the country are experiencing it quite differently, just like we've seen at other times. Remember back in 2020 when the virus first spread, it spread rapidly in the coastal cities before eventually moving across the country. And that pattern seems to be continuing and is only being aggravated by local differences in vaccination rates and hospital capacity. Let me show you what I mean here. Obviously, look at these numbers. We were – our huge peak a year ago was averaging 250,000 cases a day. Right now, Omicron, just a gigantic 780,000 cases a day. But we're handling this much better. Why? There's really one big reason: 63% of the country's fully vaccinated. A year ago, we didn't have that kind of vaccination rate. Overall, by the way, nationally, 83% of ICU beds are in use. And obviously, with the coastal cities being hit first with Omicron, the vaccination rates in those coastal cities are higher than 63%. And hospital capacity is better. Let me give you an example. Look, both in South Florida and in the New York City Metro areas the case counts are two and three times the national average right now. It looks horrible in some of these places. But look at this. ICU beds availability is actually not that bad. Why is that? Very high vaccination rates in these counties, in addition to actual major hospital capacity. But let me take you to some parts of rural America. Here’s just five counties, Tennessee, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Montana and Wyoming. Right now, their case counts per 100,000 are actually below the national average, okay? Omicron surge has not come to these counties yet. But right now, ICU bed availability, not a typo, we didn't forget to fill out this graphic, it is zeroes across the board. And Omicron hasn't come. The vaccination rate in these counties are below 50%. You see where this could be headed: rural America and rural hospitals having to batten down the hatches. When we come back, the hostage crisis at a Texas synagogue. It's over, thankfully. But will we see copycat efforts to free terrorism suspects again? Stay with us.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. A little focus on national security. I want to spend a big time about Russia, but Amna, you spend a lot of time covering Afghanistan and Pakistan. And that hostage situation at the synagogue in the Dallas-Fort Worth area has ties to somebody we've held in prison. And I guess the concern when you look at this story, everything ended safely here, but the hostage taker was talking about a woman who's in prison who's become a bit of a cause célèbre for--
AMNA NAWAZ:
That's right.
CHUCK TODD:
– some fundamentalists. Tell us more about it.
AMNA NAWAZ:
Her name is Aafia Siddiqui. She is a Pakistani national, U.S.-educated woman, who was arrested in Afghanistan U.S. officials say in 2008. And they say while she was in custody there being questioned, she got hold of someone's weapon and attempted to kill U.S. soldiers and FBI agents. They brought her to the states, tried her on terrorism charges, and sentenced her to about 85 years. So she's serving that time in Texas right now. She has become something of a cause célèbre. And even over all of these years, among more militant Islamist circles, but also more generally. In Pakistan, she is held up as a hero, as someone who was unjustly imprisoned, wrapped up in this global war on terror that the U.S. led. But even human rights organizations here in the U.S. have questioned her detention and the circumstances of her arrest, and saying, “is she really –” She has said she did not do any of that, we should say. But she has also said some antisemitic remarks in the past. She has held onto the antisemitic conspiracy theory that Israel was behind the attacks of 9/11. And so to have someone who says that they support her and want her released, go into a synagogue in this way, is deeply concerning at a time of rising antisemitism.
CHUCK TODD:
I was just going to say, I assume now that synagogues and military installations are probably the two highest profile targets for anybody on this topic right now, I bet.
AMNA NAWAZ:
Well, I'll tell you, I spoke with a law enforcement official this morning who works on national security. He said they're still investigating the motive here, but what they're preparing for is not just potential copycats, but just this year, unprecedented levels of violence in 2022 because of the volatility of the threat scenario.
CHUCK TODD:
My goodness. And never mind our own domestic situation. Let's turn a little bit to Russia here. I'd like to finish this conversation there. Andrea, it is pretty clear the U.S. is trying to prepare Europe and the world: this is going to happen. Right? Is that what's happening here?
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Absolutely. And we gave them the intelligence, the intelligence that we were all briefed on on Friday, which is that there are saboteurs, Russian saboteurs, in Eastern Ukraine, in the Russian areas, who would be attacking – planning to attack Russian forces, their own Russian proxy forces, blow them up in order to create a pretext for a Russian invasion. That is the intelligence I was just checking today, you know, because after 2003 and WMD and all of that, we're all very careful. We can't determine whether this intelligence is accurate. We have to rely on these intelligence sources. But they say the allies have been briefed on it. And the one area where I think that Senator Romney was particularly incorrect on or not well informed on is I think they have done a terrific job on bringing in the allies. I was in Europe at the NATO meetings and the other meetings with Secretary Blinken. They have a unified alliance, pretty much Germany too, despite the new German government and the fact --
CHUCK TODD:
Well, it's because of it --
ANDREA MITCHELL:
– that they are relying --
CHUCK TODD:
– in some ways, actually, right?
ANDREA MITCHELL:
– on the energy.
CHUCK TODD:
There's a more anti-Russian foreign minister in Germany than under the Merkel regime.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
But because of the Green Party as well, which is not as excited about the natural gas and the Nord Stream 2, it gets complicated. They're in that coalition. But in any case, the alliance, they've really worked that hard. But what also I was checking on today is this new threat that the Russians are, you know, proposing or suggesting, that they will put nuclear missiles in Cuba and in Venezuela. A Cuban Missile Crisis 2 --
CHUCK TODD:
Here we go.
EUGENE ROBINSON:
We've been here before.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
And the U.S. intelligence thinks that that is bluster, apparently.
CHUCK TODD:
Okay. Look, this is one of those – Tom Brokaw used to say, his "UFO," "The unforeseen will occur, and it can change a dynamic of the politics of anything." This just adds to the president's long list.
EUGENE ROBINSON:
No, it does. I mean, imagine, you know, a large-scale ground war in Europe, you know, an insurgency happening in Europe that we support, perhaps. I mean, this is serious stuff and it's not the sort of stuff you anticipate. And it obviously can go in any direction. It's interesting to hear you say that the allies are all with U.S. policy on this and with Secretary Blinken because that was kind of my question was, you know, can you –
CHUCK TODD:
Well, we’ll see. Let’s see when it happens. I was just going to say, this could be “trust but verify” here with what the Europeans have to say.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
But Putin may have overplayed his hand on this.
MATTHEW CONTINETTI:
You can have an alliance that's great. But when Putin invades, will the alliance be willing to take the next steps? And so far, they're mouthing the right words, but actions will be decisive here.
CHUCK TODD:
I'm curious, Matthew, look, we know – in a weird way, the Republican conference is split. You have real hardliners who want to get tough on Russia. Then you have others that are, you know, more in the Trump wing that are, like, "Let's not get ourselves bogged down on this." Could this split the party a little bit?
MATTHEW CONTINETTI:
I think an invasion of Ukraine by Russia will split, kind of, the conservative commentariat, some of the Rand Paul wings.
CHUCK TODD:
That's right.
MATTHEW CONTINETTI:
These are longstanding divisions within the conservative movement.
CHUCK TODD:
Pre-Trump GOP.
MATTHEW CONTINETTI:
I think the bulk of Republicans want us to take an aggressive stance toward Russia, starting now, not wait until the invasion begins.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. Well, here's hoping it doesn't happen. It is a little spooky. The 2008 Olympics, Putin goes to Georgia. The 2014 Olympics, right after it's over, he does his Crimea business. What have we got coming up? Lot of concern there.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
He's going to Beijing.
CHUCK TODD:
He is. Is he going there as a spectator or something else? That's all we have for today. Thank you for watching. We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.