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Meet the Press - January 23, 2022

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), Rep. Elissa Slotkin (D-Mich.), Sec. Antony Blinken, Peter Baker, Carlos Curbelo, Symone Sanders and Kristen Welker

CHUCK TODD:

This Sunday: Year-two reset.

PRES. JOE BIDEN:I know there's a lot of frustration and fatigue in this country.

CHUCK TODD:

President Biden, acknowledging first-year setbacks, on Covid –

PRES. JOE BIDEN:

Should we have done more testing earlier? Yes, but we're doing more now.

CHUCK TODD:

– and on inflation –

PRES. JOE BIDEN:

If price increases are what you're worried about, the best answer is my Build Back Better plan.

CHUCK TODD:

– while taking aim at Republicans.

PRES. JOE BIDEN:

What are Republicans for? What are they for?

CHUCK TODD:This morning, we kick off our Meet the Midterms coverage with sobering new NBC News poll numbers for Democrats:

HEATHER RAMIREZ:

I think he should go back and look at how he campaigned.

CHUCK TODD:

I'll talk to progressive Senator Bernie Sanders and moderate Democratic Congresswoman Elissa Slotkin on what Democrats need to do next. Plus, no breakthroughs over Ukraine.

SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:

We stand firmly with Ukraine in support of its sovereignty and territorial integrity.

CHUCK TODD:

With Russia poised to invade, the British government now says Moscow is plotting to install a pro-Russian leader in Ukraine. My guest this morning, the Secretary of State Antony Blinken. Also Covid peaks and plateaus.

DR. JACOB EICHENBERGER:

My hope is, yes, that Omicron, this is the beginning of the end.

CHUCK TODD:

Hospitalizations down in the northeast, but rising in other places.

DR. TRUDY HALL:

We definitely have seen an increase in our critical care patients.

CHUCK TODD:

The question now: Whom do Americans trust for information about Covid? Joining me for insight and analysis are: NBC News Chief White House Correspondent Kristen Welker, former Republican Congressman Carlos Curbelo, Symone Sanders, former chief spokeswoman for Vice President Kamala Harris and New York Times Chief White House Correspondent Peter Baker. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.

ANNOUNCER:

From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.

CHUCK TODD:

And a good Sunday morning. President Biden's news conference on Wednesday was designed to kick off a second-year reset of his presidency, recapture his political identity if you will, but our new NBC News poll suggests Mr. Biden does need a reset, because he’s lost his identity a bit. He's no longer seen as competent and effective, no longer seen as a good commander in chief or -- perhaps most damaging -- as easy going and likable. In fact, just five percent of adults say Mr. Biden has performed better than expected as president - one of the many lowests, firsts and fewests in our poll. And as we kick off our "Meet the Midterms" coverage heading into November, the NBC News political unit developed what we’re calling a “Midterm Meter.” It’s based on previous election cycles and it’s basically three poll numbers you need to know best. I’m going to start with perhaps the most important number to understand the direction of the midterms, its job approval here, the president’s job approval rating sitting at 43%. If you look at history, history shows that kind of presidential approval rating leads to a shellacking for the party in power. How about the mood of the nation? Let me show you this, right now our wrong track, nations on the wrong track number sitting at 72% - second poll in a row where we've been over 70%. This is only the third time in our poll's history over thirty years where we’ve had two tracks that off. That again would put you in shellacking territory for the party in power. The one place Democrats are holding up okay is on the question of which party should control congress: basically a dead heat, one point advantage there, but most analysts will tell you Democrats have to be up by about four or five due to redistricting in order to actually hold the house here so that puts it in the middle. But as you can see, two of our three most important indexes is sitting in shellacking territory right now for the Democrats. This is a dangerous place for the party and the president to be at the one-year mark of this presidency.

VALERIE HOLT:

The whole world is just, it's a mess.

CHUCK TODD:

With the coming midterms likely a referendum on President Biden - voters are in a sour mood. This week I traveled to Georgia - the state that clinched control of the Senate for Democrats.

MARISSA MARCUS:

I think there's still a lot of separation, a lot of divide.

RACHEL KITCHENS:

We’re kind of on a tipping point of polarization.

DRE SMITH:

I wish we could just shut up and, like, agree and listen to each other.

CHUCK TODD:

Asked to describe America in their own words in our NBC News poll - voters used the words "divided", "negative", "lost", "bad" and "downhill."

VALERIA GARCIA:

I think it's just getting harder to live that American dream.

PRES. JOE BIDEN:

For all this progress. I know there's a lot of frustration and fatigue in this country. We know why, Covid-19.

CHUCK TODD:

At a news conference on Wednesday, President Biden promised a reset - saying he would engage more directly with Americans - but he was also defensive.

PRES. JOE BIDEN:

I don't believe the polls.

CHUCK TODD:

Though the two parties are deadlocked on the question of which party should control Congress, Republicans now have a double-digit advantage on interest in the election itself. Disparities like that led to big one-party waves in 2006, 2010, 2014 and 2018. There has been a significant drop in interest among the Democrats' core voting groups since October: urban voters down 16 points, young voters down 17 points and African Americans down 21 points.

CHUCK TODD:

You seem to be a little bit disappointed.

HEATHER RAMIREZ:

I am. The majority of his voting bloc, I feel that he's ignored us.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Do you think that president Biden has fought hard enough for the priorities of Black voters?

HELEN BRADLEY:

I do not.

CHUCK TODD:

President Biden is walking a tightrope. In addition to flagging enthusiasm in the base - he faces eroding support among independents. In Atlanta, I sat down with several Biden voters who did not vote Democrat in 2016.

JONATHAN LOCHAMY:

Leaning into the argument about elections and election fairness in either direction turns me off.

CHUCK TODD::

What could Biden do right now to make you feel less like a reluctant Biden supporter?

JASON MURPHY:

I mean, we've got a lot of problems. We've got high inflation. We have supply chain issues.

CHUCK TODD:

The economy and jobs is the top issue for voters - replacing Covid. Republicans have a 33 point advantage, driven by gains among independents. While job creation is up and the unemployment rate is down, 61% say their family income is falling behind the cost of living.

JENNIFER RUCHINSKI:

It's almost $400 Just to go to the grocery store for three people. I mean, that's insane.

CHUCK TODD:

70% say America has become so polarized that the federal government can no longer solve the major issues facing this country - that is up a whopping 34 points from a decade ago. Just 24% say Biden has done a good job uniting the country.

JASON MURPHY:

I think he's listening to too many liberals.

STANLEY HERMAN:

He was voted in with a promise to be bipartisan, but it takes two to tango and I think he's run into a brick wall with that.

CHUCK TODD:

And joining me now is the independent progressive senator of Vermont, Bernie Sanders. Senator Sanders, welcome back to Meet the Press, sir.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

Good to be with you, Chuck.

CHUCK TODD:

Let me just start, give me your take about why the president and the Democratic Party are in this precarious political situation right now at the start of the second year of the presidency.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

I will tell you why. I'll tell you exactly why. I think the president and the Democratic Congress started off very, very strongly. They looked at the economic crisis that was caused by Covid. We stood up strongly and we passed the American Rescue Plan, which did an enormous amount in revitalizing our economy, put money into the hands of working people, put money into hospitals and into health care, lowered, lowered childhood poverty by 40% by putting direct payments in the hands of working-class parents all over this country. We were off to a great start. And we also passed along the way the strongest infrastructure bill that has been passed since Dwight D. Eisenhower in order to rebuild our crumbling roads and bridges and water systems, expand broadband, and create many, many hundreds of thousands of good paying jobs. We were off to a great start. And then I will tell you exactly what happened. Fifty members of the Republican Party decided that they were going to be obstructionist, that they were not going to help us address the crises facing working families, not going to deal with the existential threat of climate, not going to be dealing with the high cost of prescription drugs, the need to expand Medicare, the need to improve home health care, et cetera, et cetera. And then you had two United States senators joining them, Mr. Manchin and Senator Sinema. And then, for five months now, there have been negotiations behind closed doors trying to get these senators, these two Democratic senators on board. That strategy, in my view, Chuck, has failed. It has failed dismally. We saw it last week in terms of the Voting Rights Act. We now need a new direction, in my view, and that is to take it to the Republicans, to bring important pieces of legislation that impact the lives of working families on the floor of the Senate. And if the Republicans want to vote to protect the wealthy and the powerful, that's their right. Let the American people see what's happening.

CHUCK TODD:

So, you think this really is a process problem, if you will, tactical problem, not a substance problem. So, does this mean you think, from the beginning – and I hate even using the word reconciliation for this audience. We don't want to get mired into that Congress-speak there. But do you think that was sort of a mistake, right? Lumping it all in.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

No.

CHUCK TODD:

That there should have been separate votes --

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

No.

CHUCK TODD:

– for everything? Or now there should be?

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

No, no, no, no.

CHUCK TODD:

Okay.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

No, that is exactly not what I'm saying. What is in the reconciliation bill – and I know that's inside the beltway – is enormously popular. It's what 70%, 80% of the American people – NBC should do a poll and find out whether the American people want us to take on the greed of the drug companies and lower the cost of prescription drugs. Ask people whether they want to expand Medicare to cover dental, hearing, and eyeglasses. Ask people whether they want to improve home health care, whether we want to deal with climate change. All of those pieces of legislation are enormously popular, the bill, itself, in its entirety. And the president deserves credit for looking at the real problems facing this country. But what we had is obstructionism from 50 Republicans, two Democrats. What we have got to do now is take the issues to the American people. And if the Republicans want to vote against lowering the cost of prescription drugs, they want to continue to give tax breaks to the rich, let them vote that way. Let the American people see what's happening and then we can come together after these votes to put together the strongest bill that we can.

CHUCK TODD:

So, I was just going to say. Let me play for you something that Ro Khanna, a progressive House member, represents Silicon Valley, what he said about climate and Joe Manchin. And I'm curious what you think of this.

(BEGIN TAPE)

REP. RO KHANNA:

Give him the pen. Let him come up with something. I think he's going to come up with something that is going to be extraordinarily much better than nothing on climate.

(END TAPE)

CHUCK TODD:

Are you okay with that strategy now? Or do you want to go through the votes first and then you're like, okay, if all I can get is what I can get from Manchin, I'll take it?

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

Look, as a tactical issue, you know, you have been around long enough to know that funny things happen when a bill gets to the floor. Clearly, we have got to deal with the enormous crisis of climate. Let's put a strong bill on the floor. And if Mr. Manchin and Ms. Sinema want to vote against it or whatever, Republicans want to vote against it, we can go from there. But what we cannot continue to do, in my view, is these endless backroom negotiations. The American people have got to see where we are. And after that happens, we'll do the best that we possibly can.

CHUCK TODD:

Do you think, though, it's been healthy for the Democratic Party to highlight the division in the party? You know, you look at Senator Sinema, she was censured by the Arizona Democratic Party over what some will look at as a disagreement over tactics, not over substance, but over tactics.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

No.

CHUCK TODD:

Do you think that was an appropriate action?

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

Yeah, I do. I think it's exactly right. Look, on the issue of voting rights, this is something that's almost different than anything else. What that is is that right now you have a Republican Party under Trump's leadership that is perpetuating this big lie that Trump actually won the election. And therefore you have 19 Republican states that are moving very aggressively into voter suppression, into extreme gerrymandering. Some of these states are doing away with the powers of independent election officials. They are moving in a very, very anti-democratic way. And it was absolutely imperative that we change the rules so that we could pass strong voting rights legislation. All Republicans voted against us. Two Democrats voted against us. That was a terrible, terrible vote and I think what the Arizona Democratic Party did was exactly right.

CHUCK TODD:

Let me ask you this. As you know, I'm going to have my next guest, Congresswoman Elissa Slotkin, she's part of some swing district members of Congress that also want a retooling, but in a different way. They would like to see more compromising, focus on the inflation and Covid issue right now. Essentially while agreeing with you that the ideas are popular, voters are worried about near-term issues right now and that's what's better for the midterms. What do you say to her?

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

Well, I think, in a sense, that's right. You know, we can chew bubble gum and walk at the same time. And my own view, if you want to do things that are important and are politically effective, what you've got to do is talk to where the American people — they want action on Covid. That is exactly right. Let's do it. They want action on prescription drugs. They want action on home health care. They want action on climate. We have got to revitalize the Senate. We've got to bring these bills to the floor. We've got to debate them. And I think, at the end of that debate, when we see how things shake out, we can then pass strong legislation which will help all Democratic candidates because you have a Republican Party right now which is playing the obstructionist role. They stand for nothing except for wanting to cut Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.

CHUCK TODD:

Very quickly, as perhaps the leading progressive voice in the Democratic coalition, can President Biden count on your vote in the Senate with almost any compromise he comes up with with Manchin?

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

No. No, absolutely not. You're going to have to look at what that so-called compromise is. If it's strong, if it protects the needs of working people, if it deals with climate, I'm there. But we have to look at the details of any proposal.

CHUCK TODD:

All right. Senator Bernie Sanders, the progressive independent senator from Vermont, I appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:

Thank you.

CHUCK TODD:

And joining me now is a Democrat from the moderate wing of the party. It's Elissa Slotkin of Michigan. Congresswoman Slotkin, welcome back to Meet The Press.

REP. ELISSA SLOTKIN:

Thanks for having me.

CHUCK TODD:

Look, you're one of, let me get my numbers right here, seven House Democrats, there's just seven, it shows you how polarized we are, representing a district that Trump won in 2020. I want to show you some numbers from independents that we saw on President Biden, that on the issue of compromise, has he been too willing, too unwilling, the right balance. Among independents, a large majority, 55%, believe the president's been too unwilling to compromise. Does that – you're a district that obviously has an independent mind. You won. Trump won. Is this what you're hearing?

REP. ELISSA SLOTKIN:

I do. I mean, I think that people in general are kind of questioning whether government still works for them. And so, we should be doing a couple of things really, really well and then talking about it over and over and over again so people know we did it, as opposed to saying we're going to do everything, promising the world, and then not getting all of that done. People leave feeling like, well, look, my government isn't doing anything for me. So, I think we're in a crisis when it comes to people believing in government. And the best thing we can do is govern effectively.

CHUCK TODD:

All right. So, what do you want the president to do in the next six weeks? Because you could argue that, because it's an even-numbered year, you know this, you maybe only have until April 1 to truly get some legislation done. What should the focus be?

REP. ELISSA SLOTKIN:

Yes. I mean, I think, for me, the issues that are always going to resonate, the cost of prescription drugs, right? Just allow Medicare to negotiate for drug prices. It was in different versions of bills. It's a common-sense thing.

CHUCK TODD:

And that unites progressives. That's something you just heard Senator Sanders about. This actually unites the Democratic coalition, that issue.

REP. ELISSA SLOTKIN:

It's not a democratic coalition, by the way.

CHUCK TODD:

Yeah.

REP. ELISSA SLOTKIN:

It just doesn't make any sense that Medicare can't negotiate drug prices.

CHUCK TODD:

President Trump wanted it.I think –

REP. ELISSA SLOTKIN:

Right. So, let's do that.

CHUCK TODD:

Yeah.

REP. ELISSA SLOTKIN:

I think universal pre-kindergarten for three-year-olds and four-year-olds. Like, right now, you're worried about the economy. We don't have enough people working. You unleash a huge amount of people into the economy if we can get reliable childcare. So, do discrete things well. Don't try and promise the moon. And I just come from the school -- I'm, you know, a CIA officer and a Pentagon official, like, under-promise and over-deliver. And we haven't been doing that.

CHUCK TODD:

There seems to be a lot of public highlighting of Democratic division. We were talking earlier, you weren't crazy about having to air some of this dirty laundry, but it's happening. What's happening to Senator Sinema, is this healthy for the party, having a state party, her own state party, censure her. Like I said, most people will look at what they're censuring her over is a disagreement on tactics, not on the issue.

REP. ELISSA SLOTKIN:

Yeah, I just don't come from a school where you're constantly airing dirty laundry. There are really big divisions in Washington right now, period, Democrat, Republican, within each party. But I just don't believe that the way that you get back at other people is by putting that on air, airing that publicly. So, I don't love that. I also don’t think that – you know, if we disagree with someone, that's a normal part of governing. People just want people to be responsible. So, I don't love it, but I also – that's not what people in my district are worrying about right now.

CHUCK TODD:

Do you question the motives of Senators Manchin and Sinema for their disagreements on this?

REP. ELISSA SLOTKIN:

No. I don’t – I think – someone once told me when I started Congress, you know, you can question someone's policy choices; don't question their motives because we're all here, I hope, to do the right thing. Or we should be.

CHUCK TODD:

You have a district that actually has got a lot of parts of what I would say is the Biden coalition that got him the primary. Union folks. He ended up being – working-class folks, African Americans. Let's start with union members and African Americans. What are you hearing from them on what they're saying about the Democratic Party these days?

REP. ELISSA SLOTKIN:

Well, look, people don't wake up in my district, like, real political people, they're not, you know, here in Washington, they're probably, you know, not watching this show right now. They're waking up and they're talking about the price of groceries –

CHUCK TODD:

Yeah.

REP. ELISSA SLOTKIN:

– the price of gas. They're talking about crime, right, and concerns about security. They're talking about whether their kids are going to be able to stay in school. Those are the things that people are talking about. And I think that's, in my mind, what the White House should be laser focused on. And I get it, there's a big coalition. We've got a lot of people that are interested in a lot of different things. But, in my mind, where's the war room on the cost of living, right? Where's the task force on inflation? Where's the energy around that because that's what everyone is talking about when I sit down with them.

CHUCK TODD:

And when it comes to Covid. Covid, we know, for everybody, is the wet blanket. For different reasons, it's the wet blanket. Is there anything the administration can do more proactively on Covid? Or is the fact that it looks like they're taking a little bit of a step back the right call as far as the politics of Covid, I'd say?

REP. ELISSA SLOTKIN:

You know, if we could, I would say let's kind of enter a new phase on Covid and keep our kids in school, keep our businesses open, focus on keeping our world open. But our hospitals are like war zones right now, right? We don't have enough subs when our teachers get Covid. So, we can't forget about it. We can't change and sort of say that's not our business when the institutions that hold our communities up --

CHUCK TODD:

Should that be what Congress is focused on right now? Is Covid relief going to be necessary with what's happening? I mean, school bus drivers, but it's not just that, it's across the board here. Should Congress step in here with more relief?

REP. ELISSA SLOTKIN:

I mean, honestly, the Covid relief, at least in my state, that we passed back in March is sitting in the bank account of the state of Michigan. The state of Michigan has, like, literally $4 billion that they can --

CHUCK TODD:

Should they be using this for substitute teachers?

REP. ELISSA SLOTKIN:

Yes. Yes. Hello? Hello, Michigan state senate and state senates. Move. Get off your duff. Get that money out so that we can pay more for subs in our schools, so that we can get more folks, nurses, and doctors. I don't know that we need another package because the money we've spent hasn't been used already on the ground.

CHUCK TODD:

All right. Elissa Slotkin, a Democrat from Michigan. Thanks for coming on and --

REP. ELISSA SLOTKIN:

Of course.

CHUCK TODD:

– sharing your perspective with us.

REP. ELISSA SLOTKIN:

Thanks for having me.

CHUCK TODD:

When we come back, amid new accusations that Russia is plotting to install a puppet leader in Ukraine, how will the U.S. respond if Russia does something? Secretary of State Antony Blinken joins me next.

CHUCK TODD:

Welcome back. The British government announced last night that Russia is plotting to install a pro-Russian leader in Ukraine. This,as Russian forces remain poised on Ukraine's border for a possible invasion. Russia is denying the accusation from the British. The news came a day after the secretary of state, Antony Blinken, met with his Russian counterpart, Sergey Lavrov, over Russia's military build up. The U.S. agreed to provide written answers next week to Russian demands that NATO pull back from Eastern Europe and that Ukraine never join the defense organization. Well, joining me now is the secretary of state, Secretary Blinken. Welcome back to Meet the Press, sir.

SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:

Thanks, Chuck. Good to be with you.

CHUCK TODD:

Let's start with that intelligence from the British. How reliable is it as far as you're concerned? And why was it necessary to go public with it?

SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:

Well, Chuck, I'm not going to comment on specific intelligence reports. But what I can tell you is this: We've been concerned and have been warning about exactly these kinds of tactics for weeks. And we talked about that publicly, that Russia would try to, in some way, topple or replace, replace the government. Just a few days ago, we sanctioned four Russian agents in Ukraine who were engaged in destabilizing activities. This is very much part of the Russian playbook. It's important that people look at the whole range of things that Russia could and may be preparing to do in Ukraine.

CHUCK TODD:

I got to go -- last week, you -- the U.S. intelligence community released information that he was trying to create a, sort of a false flag operation. This is from British intelligence. Again, this seems to be an unusual move to make so much of this stuff public. Who are you trying to send the message to? And I'm not going to be subtle here -- is this sending a message to our other European allies that this is real and this is serious?

SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:

Chuck, it's mostly making clear, first of all, to the Russians, that we know all of the tactics and techniques that they can bring to bear. They're amassing a huge number of forces on Ukraine's borders. People are rightly very focused on that. But, there are a whole series of other actions that they've taken in the past and are preparing to take potentially in Ukraine, and it's important they be put on notice. It's also important that people around the world, whether it's in Europe, the United States or beyond, understand the kinds of things that could be in the offing -- false flag operation to try and create a false pretext for going in. It's important that people know that that's something that's in the playbook too.

CHUCK TODD:

What does an exit ramp for Putin look like that allows him to save face and have the United States not compromise Ukraine's independence?

SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:

Well, look, ultimately, you'd have to ask that, that of President Putin. But what we're doing is two things. Even as we're building up deterrence, even as we're building up defense for Ukraine, we're also engaged in diplomacy and dialogue. And I met, as you know, with the Russian foreign minister, Sergey Lavrov, in Geneva just a few days ago to try to find out if there is a real path forward on diplomacy and, and dialogue. The Russians have put concerns on the table that they say they have about their security. We've exchanged some ideas. We'll be sharing with the Russians in writing not only our concerns, but some ideas for a way forward that could enhance mutual security on a reciprocal basis. So look, that is clearly the preferable path forward for everyone. It's the responsible thing to do. And we'll pursue it as long as we can. At the same time, we'll continue to build up other defense and deterrence that is necessary.

CHUCK TODD:

Why do you think it's so important that Putin is insisting the U.S. response is put into writing? And I'm curious, while you verbally expressed that there’s no plans any time soon to put -- to have Ukraine join NATO, are you willing to put a -- you know, saying, "Look, it won't be considered for 10 years." Are you willing to put a timestamp on that, or is that capitulating too much?

SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:

First, there's no question of capitulation. The question is whether there are ways to advance our collective security. We – as part of our diplomacy, we meet with people, we talk to people. We put things in writing all the time. In this case, we're doing it in full consultation with allies and partners, and it's a way of being as clear as you can, putting ideas on the table. But Chuck, one thing that's important to remember, as someone who engages in diplomacy, engaging in diplomacy doesn't take the word "nyet" out of your vocabulary.

CHUCK TODD:

I want to play what the president said at the press conference and ask you a question about it on the other side. This created a little bit of a stir. Here's what he said.

[BEGIN TAPE]

PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN:

I think what you're going to see is that Russia will be held accountable if it invades. And it depends on what it does. It's one thing if it's a minor incursion and then we end up having to fight about what to do and not do, et cetera.

[END TAPE]

CHUCK TODD:

What did the president say that wasn't true?

SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:

Chuck, we have been clear that first, in the event that there is a renewed Russian incursion, Russian forces going into Ukraine, there is going to be a swift, a severe and united response. But, we've also been clear that there are other things – we were just talking about this – that Russia could do, short of sending forces into Ukraine again, to try to destabilize or topple the government – cyber attacks, hybrid means, et cetera. And there, we've also been clear. There'll be a swift response. There'll be a calibrated response. There'll be a united response. And so what we're doing, and I've been engaged in close consultations with all of our European allies and partners, including in Europe last week on the phone virtually every day, to make sure that across all of these scenarios, we have a clear and united response. And we will.

CHUCK TODD:

Why does it look like America's more concerned about Europe's security than Europe?

SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:

Oh, I don't think that's the case. I think there’s – in my own engagements with my European counterparts that have been intensive and extensive over the last couple months, I think there's a deep-seated concern across the board. And by the way, this is a concern that should extend not only to Europe and the United States, but in a sense, it should concern the entire world, because what's at stake here is not simply the relationship between Ukraine and Russia, or even between Europe and Russia or the United States and Russia. What's at stake here, Chuck, are very basic principles of international relations that have kept peace and security since the last world wars and the Cold War – the idea that one nation can't simply change the borders of another nation by force, that it can't dictate to that country its choices, with whom it will associate, that it can't exert a sphere of influence to subjugate its neighbors to its will. That's what's at stake here. And if you let that go unchecked, that opens a Pandora's Box that countries far away from Europe will take into account.

CHUCK TODD:

Look, I want to bring up Germany specifically because their, their – the head of their Navy had to respond when he said at a conference essentially that Putin deserves more respect. There's no way that Crimea's ever going to go back to Ukraine. He resigned. But it seemed to simply put a spotlight on what everybody seems to know: Germany is the sticking point here of a united, tough response against Putin. Is there something we can do to alleviate those economic concerns that Germany has to get them on board?

SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:

First, Chuck, that's simply not my assessment. I sat with Chancellor Scholz just last week for an hour and listened very carefully to him. I've been on the phone and saw my, my own German counterpart, Foreign Minister Baerbock. And I can tell you that the Germans very much share our concerns and are resolute in being determined to respond, and to respond swiftly, effectively and in a united way. I have no doubts about that.

CHUCK TODD:

The diplomacy, the consistent calls for meetings right now that the Russians are doing – do you think they're genuine about diplomacy, or do you think they're just essentially playing out the calendar here because they – he's not going to upset Xi in the Olympics, and essentially we're making it look more legitimate by negotiating? Are you worried that he's playing us a little bit?

SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:

Look, it’s – it is certainly possible that the diplomacy that Russia's engaged in is simply going through the motions and it won't affect their ultimate decision about whether to invade or in some other way intervene or not in Ukraine. But, we have a responsibility to see the diplomacy through for as far as and as long as we can go because it's the more responsible way to bring this to a closure. But Chuck, we are not sitting still. Even as we're engaged in diplomacy, even as we're engaged in dialogue, we are building up defense. We're building up deterrence. We've now provided to Ukraine more security assistance this year than in any previous year. We have rallied allies and partners around the world. We are preparing massive consequences for Russia if it invades Ukraine again. So you have to do both at the same time. You build up your defense. You build up your deterrence on the one hand. You engage in diplomacy and dialogue on the other. That's the way that I think it makes the most sense to carry this forward. Ultimately, we've given Russia two paths. It has to choose.

CHUCK TODD:

There’s been some reports that our embassy in Ukraine has made a request to send non-essential personnel home now, begin that process. Have you approved that request yet? And what would – and if not, what are you waiting for?

SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:

Chuck, this is something that we look at every single day. I have no higher responsibility than the safety and wellbeing of the folks who work for the State Department and who are under, under my care, in a sense. So we're tracking this very, very closely. We're looking at it on really a daily basis. And if we need to make a determination that we should draw down some of the folks at the embassy, we'll do that based on the security needs.

CHUCK TODD:

But right now, you feel like Kyiv appears safe, at least in the near term?

SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:

This is something, again, we're tracking intensely hour by hour, and certainly day by day.

CHUCK TODD:

Secretary Blinken, really appreciate you taking some time and sharing --

SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:

Thanks, Chuck.

CHUCK TODD:

– the administration's perspective. Thank you, sir. When we come back, one of the biggest reasons President Biden is struggling in the polls? Here's a hint: it's all about that base. Panel is next.

[BEGIN TAPE

HEATHER RAMIREZ:

How is it possible that this new guy that came in the last time, you know, the maverick, the one that was, like, "I'm going to do something different," he was able to get so many things done, good, bad, or ugly? He was still able to accomplish that. So are you saying that the longer you are a politician, the less you can get done?

[END TAPE]

CHUCK TODD:

That was a Biden supporter, folks. Welcome back. It was one of the disappointed Democratic voters we met on a trip to Georgia this week, perfect grist for our panel. Symone Sanders, former chief spokeswoman for Vice President Kamala Harris, and soon to be a host on MSNBC. Welcome. NBC News Chief White House correspondent, Kristen Welker; and New York Times' Chief White House correspondent, Peter Baker; and former Republican Congressman Carlos Curbelo. Well, Symone, you get the first question. You have to defend what's going on there. I want to put up our breakdown of the president's job approval rating because it really shows you parts of the coalition. Everybody in the coalition's not happy. From Bernie Sanders to – I always joke – from Bernie Sanders to John Kasich, right? Like, everybody in between here. With independents, his job ratings fell 25 points. With African Americans, 19. Eighteen to 34, 16. Latinos, 11. Women, 10. And this is all basically from the first four months to now. What’s your take on how this – let me put it this way: How's the White House handling this moment?

SYMONE SANDERS:

So I think the clip that you played, Chuck, really illuminates what is happening across the country and how the White House, and I would argue the Democratic Party apparatus is viewing it as a whole. There's a disconnect, to state the obvious, between what voters and the American people think their elected leaders have done, and what the elected leaders have actually done.

And I'm sure that's very frustrating and scary for the White House and the Democratic Party apparatus because the first year of the Biden and Harris administration was actually designed to demonstrate that government can work for the American people. President Biden talks about it all the time. Vice President Harris has talked about it. And you can see that in the 200 million people vaccinated, the 6.9 million jobs created, the passage of the American Rescue Plan that allotted for those monthly CTC payments and lowered health care premiums, and sometimes eliminated them for some folks across the country. But there is a disconnect. And so the White House has to figure out a way to bridge that gap. And that's what you're going to continue to see from them, I think.

CHUCK TODD:

All right, Carlos. Do you agree that this is a message problem that he has, not a substance problem?

CARLOS CURBELO:

I think Joe Biden's biggest challenge is that he's not being himself. Joe Biden has a record over 50 years of being a pragmatist, a consensus builder, someone who worked with Republicans, worked with Democrats. When he was vice president, President Obama would send him to negotiate with Mitch McConnell. They pulled him back sometimes because he was too willing to negotiate. And all of a sudden, he became the face of the most progressive, ambitious policy that the Democratic Party has tried to advance in a generation, the same Joe Biden who ran in the primaries as the mainstream or moderate candidate. The same Joe Biden who told Independents — and we see that big drop – that he was going to help heal this country, that he was going to be the president of Republicans, Democrats and Independents. I think a lot of these voters have found him to be a partisan. And that was a surprise because he was supposed to be different than Donald Trump. Donald Trump was divisive. Joe Biden was supposed to bring us together and to heal us.

CHUCK TODD:

You know, Peter, it did strike me that the president is aware that he's lost a little bit of his political identity when he had to bring up Bernie Sanders to say, "I’m not – "

PETER BAKER:

"I'm not him."

CHUCK TODD:

"-- remember, he's the socialist. I'm the capitalist."

PETER BAKER:

Yeah, no, exactly right. Now, look, he is trying to struggle to define himself, right? And he had run as the anti-Trump. And the coalition was unified by this one thing: they all hated Trump. They wanted him gone. But that didn't mean that they all agreed on a lot of very important issues and that they had not settled those just because they elected Joe Biden. They elected him with 50-50 Senate, and a House only slightly more Democratic. They didn't give him the wherewithal to accomplish necessarily some of the big, most ambitious things they wanted to. So you hear even Senator Sanders say today, "Let's find ways of breaking down the package and see what will pass and what won't pass." That's a big change.

CHUCK TODD:

So Kristen, you've been doing a lot of reporting. What’s going, what – what is next? Is it the Electoral Count Act? Is it universal pre-K? What is, what is the chunk he goes after next to put a point on the scoreboard?

KRISTEN WELKER:

Well, they are going to work on the Electoral Count Act, which would, of course, fortify the way in which the electoral votes are counted. But I do think there's going to be a key focus on a scaled back version of the Build Back Better package, what you were talking about with Congresswoman Slotkin. And I think they are going to go after things where they think they can find bipartisan support, like lowering the cost of childcare, like expanding health care. Prescription drugs is going to be a big piece of that as well, but there's also going to be a reset in messaging. That's the one thing the president can control. So I am told he's going to be at shovel-ready projects, talking about his infrastructure law, what he's already done. He's going to be at schools where they're imposing broadband internet access. So I think it's messaging and policy.

CHUCK TODD:

You know, Symone, how much of this lack of being able to get out of the White House – obviously Covid has a lot to do with it. You know, I look back, you guys got to go through a campaign where you didn't really have to go around the country. How much has that hurt, do you think, in ways that you just can't really, you know, you can’t really calculate?

SYMONE SANDERS:

I think a lot. And to be clear, during the campaign, then-candidate Biden wanted to go out across the country. He relishes being with people, making his case directly to them, being at the barbershops, the beauty shops, in the diners with folks, hosting a town hall and taking their questions. And he has been unable to largely do that due to Covid. And I do think that the implications of Covid have not really been explored by tables like these in a very fulsome way because the reality is is not – if the president or vice president get Covid, they're down for ten days. Like let’s just –

CHUCK TODD:

Fact.

SYMONE SANDERS:

That is a fact. We just have to go with the facts. And so a lot of the things that are happening are happening under the umbrella of, "Ok, what can we do to make sure it's still safe?"

CHUCK TODD:

I want to bring up a quick, troubling number that we had in our poll. 76%, three in four of everybody we surveyed, said that our democracy is under threat. But look at the differences of why. Among Republicans – and by the way, it’s basically even among Republicans and Democrats agreeing with this statement now. Republicans say it's because of Democrats and liberals and it's the socialism and they're going too far to the left, not – you don't see the election fraud come up a lot here. Democrats basically agree on one reason why they think the democracy is under threat – it is Donald Trump. But this is, Peter Baker, pretty concerning overall. The rationales may not matter if everybody agrees that our democracy's crumbling.

PETER BAKER:

We're at a moment in our society I don't think a lot of us ever expected to be, right? Where we're questioning the very foundations of things that we took for granted for decades, for generations. I don't think we ever sort of thought growing up – I didn't anyway – that this would ever be at risk. We always assumed that the system would be, you know, tested, that there would be crises and challenges, but not that the fundamental nature of who America is would be in question. And I think a lot of people are questioning that today, from different ideological points of view and from different angles. But it's a different moment I think than we've seen.

CHUCK TODD:

It's a bit scary, especially because it isn't for the same reasons. And that's what makes it even harder.

PETER BAKER:

And no consensus on what to do about it.

CHUCK TODD:

No consensus on what to do. All right. Let's pause here. Up next, whom do people trust when it comes to Covid information? Is it the CDC? Is it President Biden, former President Trump? Wait till you see the answers now, when we come back.

CHUCK TODD:

Welcome back. Data Download time. For almost two years now, the pandemic has brought confusion and uncertainty into Americans' lives, forcing them to make daily decisions about who and what to trust for information about the virus. Well, our latest NBC News polls asked a simple question: Do you trust what a certain person or group has said about the virus? Some of the answers may surprise you. Look, overall, and here's what we saw here, the closer you are personally to the entity, the more you trust them. So right now, our most trusted entity when it comes to the coronavirus virus? Our employer at 57%. Then comes your child's school at 51%. As you see here, as you go to government entities, the trust goes down. CDC down, Fauci down, then your governor down, then President Biden, then former President Trump. Now, there are some political divides here a little bit. Among your employer, there's not. As you can see, a majority of Democrats and a majority of Republicans trust their employer when it comes to coronavirus information. A little less so with independents. But to show you how the political side of things has gotten, the CDC's trust problem? It's not good at 44%. Still good with Democrats. But look at this. Below 40% with Independents, and below 25% with Republicans. It really has at least polarized or politicized the CDC. And as you could see, that's led to a lot of problems, which is why it's employers and schools that parents and individuals have had to turn to because they don't trust the government these days. When we come back, Donald Trump is clearly the leader of the Republican party. But there are some signs his grip may be loosening. Stay with us.

CHUCK TODD:

Welcome back. So, is the president losing his grip on the party? Well, it depends who you ask. We have this poll question we've been asking, Carlos, for some time. Do you consider yourself – anybody who says they're a Republican, we ask, "Are you more of a Trump supporter than a Republican, or the other way around?" At the end of his presidency, towards the end, he had a majority of the party saying they were Trumpists before they were Republicans. We have now had four polls in a row, going back to the first poll after January 6th, that shows more people identifying with Republicans. And I actually had two College Republicans from Emory, one who's probably more of a Trump Republican, one who's not such a Trump Republican, agree on this issue. Take a listen.

(BEGIN TAPE)

ROBERT SCHMAD:

I really do like Trump, but I'm more of a fan of the movement he started than the man himself. Again, I would like to see these, kind of, young, more populist Republicans kind of take a leading role in the party.

JASMINE JAFFE:

I wouldn't be so in favor of a populist regime for a Republican. I think especially with the Glenn Youngkin victory, we can show that, like, a more traditional Republican that really values the social issues is important, and still, you know, uphold some free market principles.

(END TAPE)

CHUCK TODD:

Now, look, these are Georgia Republicans who are still shell-shocked from the role the former president made in basically costing them those Senate seats. And you can hear that tension in there. Do you buy the idea that Trump's grip is loosening?

CARLOS CURBELO:

Well, Chuck, as Trump has become less visible, the Republican Party's actually starting to grow into whatever it's going to be next. And I think you're seeing that in Florida with Ron DeSantis. Strong Libertarian streak. Right, opposing Covid restrictions, opposing government mandates. Being skeptical of big corporations, of big tech, for example. In Miami, a little further down, Republican mayor, Francis Suarez, embracing crypto currency. So you're starting to see what a younger Republican Party can look like. The question is when Trump comes back, if he does, if he runs again, do we stop talking about all these things and does it once again become exclusively the party of one man?

KRISTEN WELKER:

But Chuck, Leader McCarthy is very clear. He thinks he needs former President Trump in order to win back control of the House. And look at all of the races that the former president is inserting himself into. Not just Congressional races, but gubernatorial races as well. And so you have these moderate Republican governors who are really becoming a dying breed. So I think he still very much has a strong grip over the party. It's notable that that voter referenced Glenn Youngkin because Glenn Youngkin walked a very fine line. He did not push Trump away altogether. He just said, "I'm going to accept his endorsement. I'm going to espouse some of his ideals. At the same time, I'm never going to appear with him in public." So it's really that tension I think that Republicans are dealing with. By the way, White House officials saying, "We're bracing for a Trump nomination." I mean, that's how they're --

CHUCK TODD:

Bracing --

KRISTEN WELKER:

– viewing this.

CHUCK TODD:

– or hoping?

KRISTEN WELKER:

Well, good question. Maybe a little of both.

CHUCK TODD:

Yeah, well --

SYMONE SANDERS:

Donald Trump is not good for democracy.

CARLOS CURBELO:

And I'll just say quickly that's a great point because, even though Trump is less visible, he's just as influential. Why? Because Republican elected officials fear him. And they have to check with him before they do anything.

CHUCK TODD:

Symone, I've had a theory on here: If Donald Trump were on Twitter, Joe Biden's approval ratings would be five points higher. Do you think the lack of visibility has made people forget about the threat?

SYMONE SANDERS:

No, I don't think so. Look, I think the reality is, and you heard, I mean, the congresswoman talked about this this morning, that top of mind for people across the country, she said folks in her district probably aren't watching this show. I think they're watching, Chuck.

CHUCK TODD:

Thank you.

SYMONE SANDERS:

I do think they're watching --

CHUCK TODD:

I think they are too --

CARLOS CURBELO:

Especially the panel.

CHUCK TODD:

– congresswoman.

SYMONE SANDERS:

Exactly. They love the panel. But top of mind is in inflation, is in fact the effects of the pandemic, how they're going to put money in their pockets to put food on their table. And that is something that the White House is focused on, but they do have to talk about that in very practical ways. And it's not just, you know, voters in the congresswoman's district. It's Black voters. It's Latino voters. And that's what they want to hear too.

CHUCK TODD:

By the way, we didn't talk about the Kyrsten Sinema news. That's going to be an uncomfortable question for the vice president and the president: Do they support what the Arizona Democratic Party did? Was that a mistake, Symone?

SYMONE SANDERS:

Well, look, the president and vice president, as leaders of the Democratic Party, they don't get involved in the intra-Democratic Party squabbles.

CHUCK TODD:

Yeah? They don't?

SYMONE SANDERS:

They're going to let their folks do their thing. But the reality is that the Arizona Democrats, they did propel Kyrsten Sinema to the seat of Senator Sinema. This move of censuring must mean that they are willing to set up an alternative for her in a primary.

PETER BAKER:

The irony though is that Kyrsten Sinema's being attacked for serving in the tradition of Senator Joe Biden, Senator John McCain, respecting the Senate --

CHUCK TODD:

It was – Peter, Peter – it was 2018 – throughout – when he was asked this – look, by the time he ran for president, he said, "I'm not going to give you where I'm at on the filibuster." But he held the same position as Sinema did about three years ago.

PETER BAKER:

That's right.

CHUCK TODD:

This is a censuring motion now in the Democratic coalition?

PETER BAKER:

Look, it used to be a censure was for, like, an ethical violation, a criminal violation, somebody who did something to children, somebody who did something to a spouse that they shouldn't have done. Now, the Republicans are censuring people for voting for infrastructure and Democrats are saying, "We're going to censure you if you vote against us on tactic --"

CHUCK TODD:

And we laughed at that.

SYMONE SANDERS:

But –

CHUCK TODD:

Look what happened then?

PETER BAKER:

And I'm not saying it's not important. I'm just saying that the notion --

SYMONE SANDERS:

I think there's a clarification though because in Arizona, if you ask Democrats in Arizona, they will tell you that this goes back to Senator Sinema voting against the minimum wage hike in Covid-19, voting against things that she said she stood for with the party. And so I think that it's a little more complicated. It's not as black and white as --

CHUCK TODD:

The problem is nationally, it's going to look like, oh, the Democrats are kicking out the middle. Like, I get what you're saying. But it's what this picture looks like.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Well, I think you're right. And I think that's why you're not going to see the White House come out and support what happened. At the same time privately, if you talk to administration officials, if you talk to Democrats on Capitol Hill, their frustration with Senator Sinema, particularly when it comes to some of those policies you just laid out, Symone, is that they don't know where she stands until the eleventh hour.

CHUCK TODD:

It's the mercurialness of it.

KRISTEN WELKER:

Correct. And it makes it very hard to negotiate with her. And I think --

CHUCK TODD:

Joe Manchin always --

KRISTEN WELKER:

– that's the frustration.

CHUCK TODD:

– answers the phone, right?

KRISTEN WELKER:

Right.

CHUCK TODD:

And he at least tells you something.

KRISTEN WELKER:

And whenever we say, "Where is--"

CHUCK TODD:

That's what I get.

KRISTEN WELKER:

"--Senator Sinema on this," they always say, "Your guess is as good as ours."

CHUCK TODD:

Well, Senator Sinema, we would love to see on this show. I know we’re not the only ones who would like to book you. I will say I'd like to book you. All right, that is all we have for today. Thank you for watching. I wish I were saying, "Go Packers." But now, it's time to say, "Go Bills." We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.