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Meet the Press - November 14, 2021

Gov. Chris Sununu (R-N.H.), NEC Director Brian Deese, Rep. Adam Schiff (D-Calif.), Leigh Ann Caldwell, Matthew Continetti, Claire McCaskill, Eugene Scott

CHUCK TODD:

This Sunday: Inflation fears.

TOM CRENSHAW:

This is the worst it's ever been.

CATHERINE METZLER:

Everything's too high.

CHUCK TODD:

Inflation rises to its highest level in three decades.

VIRGINIA WOMAN:

Gas prices are bananas.

CHUCK TODD:

Just as the administration predicted it would be leveling off.

PRES. JOE BIDEN:

Everything from a gallon of gas to a loaf of bread costs more.

CHUCK TODD:

My guest this morning, the director of the president's National Economic Council, Brian Deese. Plus, an ugly backlash.

VOICEMAIL:

[Expletive] traitor, that's what you are. You're a [expletive] piece of [expletive] traitor.

CHUCK TODD:

Conservative voters sending profanity-laced messages to Republicans voting for President Biden's infrastructure bill.

VOICEMAIL:

Voted for dumb*** [expletive] Biden.

CHUCK TODD:

I'll ask New Hampshire's Republican Governor Chris Sununu if Washington's dysfunction is one reason he decided not to run for the Senate. Also, Trump advisor Steve Bannon indicted for refusing to comply with a January 6 Congressional subpoena. Could former Chief of Staff Mark Meadows be next? I'll talk to Democrat Adam Schiff, a member of the House committee investigating January 6. And the Kyle Rittenhouse trial.

KYLE RITTENHOUSE:

There were three, three people -- people right there.

CHUCK TODD:

Could the teen who shot three men, two fatally, during a protest in Kenosha, Wisconsin --

KYLE RITTENHOUSE:

I didn't do anything wrong. I defended myself.

CHUCK TODD:

-- be acquitted in part because of a flawed prosecution?

JUDGE BRUCE SCHROEDER:

Don't get brazen with me.

CHUCK TODD:

Joining me for insight and analysis are former Democratic Senator Claire McCaskill, Matthew Continetti of the American Enterprise Institute, NBC News Capitol Hill Correspondent Leigh Ann Caldwell and Eugene Scott of The Washington Post. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.

ANNOUNCER:

From NBC News, the longest-running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.

CHUCK TODD:

And a good Sunday morning. So just when Democrats thought it was safe to brag about the economy, after a healthy jobs report and the passage, finally, of the popular bipartisan infrastructure bill, along came word that inflation had surged 6.2 percent in October, the largest increase in 31 years. Not only could the inflation spike make it harder for Democrats to pass their $1.75 trillion dollar social spending bill, as Joe Manchin has been hinting at, but it also calls into question whether the Biden administration has a handle on this problem, after insisting, frankly for months that inflation would likely be moderating by now. It obviously is not. And just when Republicans by the way, thought it was safe to look forward to a united party heading into the 2022 midterms after their successes in 2021 last week, a nasty skirmish has broken out. The 13 Republican House members whose votes helped pass the trillion-dollar bipartisan infrastructure bill have suddenly received profanity-laced messages and death threats from some conservative voters. So why the anger over the kind of bill, infrastructure, roads and bridges, that normally produces bipartisan support? Because President Biden, who will sign the bill tomorrow, might benefit politically. That's why. At least that’s what the former president fears. And that's where we're going to start this morning, with our increasingly dysfunctional Congress, dysfunctional politics, which is driving people to want to leave Washington or simply not run at all.

REP. FRED UPTON:

An ugly time. A toxic time and really unfortunate. Because it's not what we stand for as a democracy.

CHUCK TODD:

This week's GOP-led backlash over the vote to fund roads, bridges and broadband is just the latest, as a portion of the Republican party sees threats of political violence as a legitimate part of their partisan struggle.

REP. FRED UPTON:

We always have a difference of ideas. But these ideas should not be leading to violence.

CHUCK TODD:

House Republicans who voted for the bill have been flooded with angry messages, called traitors, told to "rot in hell" and delivered death threats, like this one to Michigan Congressman Fred Upton.

VOICEMAIL:

[Expletive] traitor, that’s what you are. You’re a [expletive] piece of [expletive] traitor. I hope you die. I hope everybody in your [expletive] family dies.

CHUCK TODD:

It's a bill 19 Republican senators also voted, including Senators Lindsey Graham and Mitch McConnell.

SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:

I was delighted that the House finally found a way to pass the infrastructure bill last week.

CHUCK TODD:

But on Monday night, at an official dinner raising money for House Republicans, former President Trump went on an angry tirade.

FMR. PRES DONALD TRUMP:

No thank you, goes to those in the House and Senate who voted for the Democrats’ non-infrastructure bill. Also known as the Democrat presidential re-election bill.

CHUCK TODD:

Georgia Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor-Greene posted the office phone numbers of the 13 House Republicans online.

REP. DON BACON:

To say that a bill is right for your district, right for your state, and something that you helped write, but then you’ve got to vote against it because you don’t want to give the other side a victory? That is a sign of what’s broken.

CHUCK TODD:

Threats against members of Congress had doubled when last measured in May, according to the Capitol Police. Some of those threats are coming from inside the House. This week, Arizona Congressman Paul Gosar shared an animated video showing him killing New York Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, and swinging swords at President Biden. And Republican leaders have been slow to condemn the attack on the Capitol, taking their cues from the former president.

JONATHAN KARL:

They were saying hang Mike Pence.

FMR. PRES DONALD TRUMP:

Because it’s – it’s common sense, Jon, it’s common sense that you’re supposed to protect. How can you -- if you know a vote is fraudulent, right, how can you pass on a fraudulent vote to Congress?

REP. LIZ CHENEY:

We are also confronting a domestic threat, aided by political leaders who have made themselves willing hostages to this dangerous and irrational man.

CHUCK TODD:

Now many in the party are adopting former President Trump's violent language. From Republican leaders --

REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:

I want you to watch Nancy Pelosi hand me that gavel. It will be hard not to hit her with it but I will bang it down.

CHUCK TODD:

-- to the conservative grassroots. A Reuters investigation documented nearly 800 intimidating messages to election officials in 12 states.

AL SCHMIDT:

Tell the truth, or your three kids will be fatally shot. Let's be clear, this is domestic terrorism.

CHUCK TODD:

The bitterness in Washington is one reason New Hampshire Governor Chris Sununu, a top Senate recruit, took a pass, steepening Republican hopes of retaking the Senate.

GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:

I've been criticizing Washington for a long time. I guess I was right.

CHUCK TODD:

Well, joining me now is Governor Chris Sununu of New Hampshire. Governor Sununu, welcome to Meet the Press, sir.

GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:

Thank you very much.

CHUCK TODD:

So, I was going to say -- ask, “Geez, is this Washington environment the reason why you chose not to run.” To me, that's actually kind of obvious. It would have been weird if you chose to want to be -- if you actually actively said, "Yes, I want to be there." But let me ask it this way. If people like you don't come down here to break this dysfunction, how do we ever break the dysfunction?

GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:

Look, it's a great question and that's one of the reasons why I, you know, pushed and kind of entertained the idea so much because I do believe there's a responsibility to bring management decisions, bring leadership where I think there's a bit of a gap in the system, if you will. But also, you've got to remember, I'm an active governor. Every single day, we're working on, you know, making a dozen different decisions with accountability, rebuilding our mental health system, balancing budgets, all these things that Congress and the Senate just don't do. And as I said earlier, unfortunately, too often on both sides of the aisle, doing nothing is a win. And I don't live in that world. I can't really work like that. So, I'm more of an executive and a manager. And again, you know, we're still in the middle of the Covid crisis, right. We've done a great job in New Hampshire of balancing safety and making sure that our economy is open and flexible. And we still have the vaccines and the boosters coming out. So, there's still a lot, a lot of work to do here as governor. At some point, maybe there's an opportunity to go down. But you're absolutely right, there just needs to be a fundamental change in philosophy on both sides of the aisle to simply start getting stuff done.

CHUCK TODD:

Did you have that -- I know you did not give a heads-up to Mitch McConnell or Rick Scott to your decision beforehand. Have you had any discussions with them since? And have you expressed your direct concerns about how the Senate is run as to the reason why you didn't go?

GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:

Yeah, well, after I made the decision, again, you know, I represent the people of the state. They've hired me to do a job here, so obviously I'm going to talk to my constituents first. And I left messages for a variety of folks in Washington after I made the announcement public to my own constituents. But all of those issues that, you know, I've been bringing up are issues and conversations we had since day one. It was never about “could you win” or “could you get money” and all of the election stuff. We were going to win. That was not really the issue. It was really about what was going to be best for my constituents. You know, one thing I remind people is, as a public servant, it's an amazing job in that our responsibility is to be selfish, to be really selfish for our constituents, to put them first every single time. And I think if more folks had that philosophy in Washington, frankly, more stuff would get done. They'd be less worried about how they get re-elected or raising money and all that kind of nonsense. And ultimately, with more things done, you could get re-elected on those results. That's what we do here in New Hampshire. I think they just need to take a little bit of a page out of our playbook.

CHUCK TODD:

Well, let me ask you this. You have the former president declaring he now wants to have -- in fact, he put out a statement last night. He wants to put out primary challengers to the 13 Republicans in the House and the 19 Republicans in the Senate that, in his mind, defied the party by -- and you heard in the words of Don Bacon, a Republican from Omaha, Nebraska, who said, "This bill was what my constituents wanted me to support, so I supported it." Going down this road of making everything a party-line test, where does that leave us?

GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:

We're not going down that road. Washington has been on that road for a good ten years now and that's the fundamental problem. If everything is a party-line test, nothing is ever going to get done. I had senators telling me, "Well, when we get 60 votes, we'll work on balancing the budget." That might never happen, so start crossing the aisle now. Figure out how to do it. Make sure you're managing other people's money responsibly. I've been elected three times. I've balanced three different budgets. I've cut taxes every time. When you get the financials right, all the other opportunity flows from that, right, and you bring folks together on common ground. You've got Social Security going to go bankrupt in the next ten years. And I've got no one in Washington talking about it. Medicare. I've got seniors here. Their Medicare system is going to bankrupt this country, but no one in Washington wants to talk about how to make it sustainable. So, that was my fundamental issue. And again, I think it's just a matter of governors get stuff done. And we actually have the best ability to fend off the inaction of Washington. Covid was a great example. Governors took the lead, found the solutions. So, that's just what I've got to continue to do here.

CHUCK TODD:

The fact that there was another candidate in the race, he has claimed that because he was more pro-Trump, more pro, you know, this populist conservative movement, that you were scared of the primary. But the fact is these primaries are more toxic than ever on the Republican side of the aisle, are they not?

GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:

Look, primaries -- I think primaries are good things. There's no doubt about that, but believe me, I was not scared of a primary. I got 65 percent of the vote about a year ago. That was not the issue at all. In fact, if anything, there was a lot of talk that Chris Sununu has to be the 51st vote to stop the Chuck Schumer agenda. I think maybe six months ago there was a discussion for that, but after last Tuesday, let me tell you, Republicans are looking at 53 or 54 votes in the Senate, one of them being right here in New Hampshire. We have a lot of good candidates that I think are going to step up and run for that seat because Senator Hassan is so vulnerable. So, it's not about just stopping an agenda anymore. It's really about making sure that my skill set as an executive and a manager is best suited for the constituents that I represent here.

CHUCK TODD:

So, Governor, you have trashed the job of Senate, you've trashed the U.S. Senate, and now you're going to try to recruit somebody to run for it? You know, I mean, you’ve made a case for why you can't get anything done. How do you, with a straight face, recruit somebody to say, "Well, I think it's a totally waste -- total waste of time for the next near term, but, hey, you go for it?”

GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:

Well, you've got to remember, I'm not trashing the Senate, I'm showing the differences. You know, I'm not term-limited out. I'm going to run for governor in 2022. There's a responsibility for my constituents to do that. So, they weren't just asking me to run for the Senate. They were asking me to give up something that is incredibly challenging, but incredibly fulfilling, where I get things done every single day. So, they were asking me to quit something that I think the state has, you know, been able to really rally around. There are other folks that have more legislative, I think, thought processes. They understand policy and funding and all of that sort of thing. That's kind of what the Senate does. And they would be great at the job. So, sometimes it's just not about who can win, it's about, you know, who's really fit for the job and where those skill sets -- and we have a lot of folks in New Hampshire that can bring that to the table for Washington.

CHUCK TODD:

Does former President Trump’s presence in the party -- all of you in the Republican Party that are not close to Trump want to say, "Hey, let's look towards the future." And it's code for, "I don't want to talk about Trump." But how much does the former president's presence make -- make it harder to want to go to Washington, harder to want to compete in a primary, harder to want to run for office?

GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:

No, in New Hampshire, not at all. No, none at all. Look, I have maintained a decent relationship with the former president, but he doesn't factor into what happens. People worry about what happened in '20. People are talking about what's going to happen in '24. Stop it. All that matters is 2022 and getting stuff done and handling inflation and workforce issues, supply chain issues. These are real and this is where Washington has completely left their constituents behind, right. Governors are on the ground every day talking about this stuff, trying to redesign systems. But if you're not connected to your constituents, you're doing some of the dumb economic things that this president has been doing and ignoring the realities on the ground, pretending that if we just talk about inflation going away, it might happen. It won't. You need good solutions. You need good dynamics. You need folks that understand the stuff at a grassroots issue.

CHUCK TODD:

Do you accept the fact that the former president is the current leader of the Republican Party?

GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:

Oh, I've never said anyone's the leader of the Republican Party. Is AOC and Chuck Schumer the leader of the Democratic party? No. Parties are defined by principles, by what you stand on, by getting stuff done and the results that you deliver. That's what it's really all about. And I’ve, I don’t think -- am I the head, the representative, the only head of the party of the Republicans in New Hampshire? No, I don't believe that at all. We have a good infrastructure. It's about the ideals that we bring to the table.

CHUCK TODD:

Yeah.

GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:

That's what defines a party. I think the media likes to talk about individuals because that gets a little more attention in social media --

CHUCK TODD:

Yeah --

GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:

-- and more traditional media, but at the end of the day, it's about what you're bringing to the table.

CHUCK TODD:

So, you're still comfortable with Donald Trump's presence in the party?

GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:

Well, he's a Republican that lives in Florida. I mean, that's it. I mean, as far as New Hampshire's concerned, the only thing that matters for the party --

CHUCK TODD:

Yeah --

GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:

-- is what are Republicans doing for New Hampshire. What's our Senate and our House and our governor doing for New Hampshire? For our citizens, that's what defines the party. And so, that's what -- the example and the accountability that I try to live up to. It's not about party politics and platform and what's being said in the national media, it's what we're delivering. And if we can do that every single day, then we're going to be successful.

CHUCK TODD:

Are we supposed to consider you a presidential candidate in 2024?

GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:

People have asked me about that and, look, I suppose that would be on the table, but nothing I'm thinking about right now. If I went to Washington, it would be in more of a management aspect because that's just what I do. And so, we'll cross that bridge or jump off it, you know, down the road.

CHUCK TODD:

Well, maybe that's a Cabinet secretary or maybe that's one of the two elected jobs. Governor Sununu, we'll be following you. I appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us.

GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:

You bet. Thank you.

CHUCK TODD:

Alright. And joining me now is the director of President Biden's National Economic Council. It's Brian Deese. Mr. Deese, welcome back to Meet the Press.

BRIAN DEESE:

Thanks for having me, Chuck.

CHUCK TODD:

Look, I want to start. It was literally six months ago on this show that the Treasury Secretary and former Fed Chair Janet Yellen said, "Look, inflation, it's just not an issue." Two weeks later when some numbers came out, that was the first time the administration started using the word "transitory" to say temporary. This is six months ago. Is it fair to say this is no longer transitory?

BRIAN DEESE:

There's no doubt inflation is high right now. It's affecting Americans' pocketbooks. It's affecting their outlook. And that's a problem we have to deal with, but it's important that we put this in context. When the president took office, we were facing an all-out economic crisis. 18 million people were collecting unemployment benefits. 3,000 people a day were dying of Covid. And because of the actions the president has taken, we're now seeing an economic recovery that most people didn't think was possible then. Economic growth in America is outstripping any other developed country, and the unemployment rate has come down to 4.6%. That's about two years faster than experts projected. So the challenge we have now is how to build on the strength of that recovery, while also addressing the price issues. And for us, that means three things. One, we have to finish the job on Covid. We have to return to a sense of economic normalcy by getting more workplaces Covid-free, getting more kids vaccinated so more parents feel comfortable going to work. Number two, we've got to address the supply chain issue. And the bipartisan infrastructure bill that the president will sign on Monday is going to do more to help get goods moving more cheaply and freely through the American economy than anything in half a century. And third, we have to address those costs that are the biggest pain points for the American-- for American families, things like housing and health care and childcare. That's exactly what the Build Back Better Bill that the House is going to consider this week will do. And we're looking forward to working on that and getting that done as soon as we can.

CHUCK TODD:

Look, Covid makes a lot of sense, but the other two points are a bit longer term. And I understand this, that your job in some ways is to protect the long term. But there are some short-term challenges. I want to put up here, yes, we have an economic recovery, but inflation is now outstripping the wage gains. As you can sit here, year over year, wages are up nearly 5%, but the inflation basically eats all of it, and then some. So then we're starting to see some eating into savings. So you talk about the supply chain issue. Let's start with the labor market. We have a massive problem in the labor market. Some of it's Covid related. Some of it though is just, we need more workers. Is it time to open the immigration door?

BRIAN DEESE:

Well, I'm glad you made the point about wages because there's more to that statistic than meets the eye. If you look at the strong wage gains that have happened, plus the direct support that we've provided to families, checks in pockets, and the Child Tax Credit, the disposable income for a typical family is actually up about 2% even after you take into account inflation, which is why we've actually seen checking account balances go up and credit card balances come down over the course of the year. Now, that doesn't reduce the frustration any more when somebody's going to the gas station and they see prices go up. But it does mean that we are well positioned to try to address these challenges going forward. With respect to the labor market, 500,000 jobs a month created, that's historic job growth. We want to get all Americans back to work. But it means focusing on things that actually practically are keeping people from going to work right now. Covid is a big element of this. Last month, four million people reported that they weren't able to fully work because either they themselves or they were dealing with a family member. The more that we can get back to a sense of normalcy, get workplaces Covid-free, get more people vaccinated, the more we're going to solve that issue, but I really want to focus on childcare here too.

CHUCK TODD:

I understand that, but that doesn’t solve the labor-- I mean, we have a truck driver problem. This isn't going to suddenly magically fix itself because you've got a better pre-K situation in this country. The truck driver issue, this appears to be-- there’s not a lot of people who want to be truck drivers. That's what I'm asking. You gotta open the immigration door. You seemed to duck that question.

BRIAN DEESE:

Well, I'm glad you raised the question of trucking and truck drivers. The situation we have in the economy right now, we're moving more goods through the economy than we ever have before. The supply chain challenges are a function of actually us being more successful at moving goods through the economy, but the demand is really high, up 17% from before the pandemic. So we're looking at doing everything we practically can, for example, to speed the issuances of a commercial driver's license. You know, to actually drive a long haul truck, you need to get training to do so. In states around the country, we're working to open on nights and weekends to allow more people to get a commercial driver's license. The other thing we need to do is we need to pay good wages and benefits to truckers. A lot of the reason why people don't want to be truck drivers, it's hard work. You have to be away from your family. It's physically exhausting. And if you look over the last two decades, the wages paid to truck drivers have just come down and down and down. The good news is truck companies are recognizing that now. They're starting to offer bonuses and wage increases. And as they do, this will become a more attractive profession for people. So we've got to work on the training, but also paying people and making it an attractive job for them to take.

CHUCK TODD:

So you do not believe-- it sounds like you don't believe we have a worker shortage, we don't have a labor shortage. Twice now, I've asked on the immigration front. You don't think we need more labor in this country, particularly in the service sector?

BRIAN DEESE:

We have one of the strongest labor market recoveries that we've seen in modern history. And we need to do more to get people to work. But we're focused on those drivers that will actually help Americans get into the workforce, and those are things like getting Covid under control and also providing childcare. You know, that is a here and now issue. That's not a tomorrow issue for a lot of families, a lot of women, more than two million women who have left the labor force, precisely because they have to manage these family issues. If we can get quality childcare, quality preschool in place, that's going to free them up to get into the labor market.

CHUCK TODD:

Are we at a point that the Fed needs to step in here and start raising rates and slow down this infla-- to tap the brakes here on inflation?

BRIAN DEESE:

Well, the Fed's going to operate independently, and the president has underscored the impact of the Fed operating independently. I'll leave those determinations to them. What we can do from our side is to focus on passing the Build Back Better agenda. You know, if you think about costs right now, 60% of a typical family's budget goes to four things: housing, health care, childcare and transportation. This Build Back Better bill will build more affordable houses around the country, make it cheaper and easier for people to live near jobs that they wanna take. It will reduce the cost of health care, reduce prescription drug prices, cap out-of-pocket costs for seniors. These are big drivers of cost--

CHUCK TODD:

None of that-- I understand that. None of that--

BRIAN DEESE:

--for American families.

CHUCK TODD:

--is going to impact inflation right now. So I guess the question is: is there much-- do you believe that just at the end of the day everything you've done is everything that can be done with inflation, or are there more tools in the toolbox that you might use if you think it's getting worse?

BRIAN DEESE:

We can address this issue in the short term and the medium term. In the short term, we're focused on executing a strategy to finish the task on Covid. Those are immediate steps that we know actually will help return our economy to a sense of normalcy, affecting supply chains, working with ports. You know, the president stepped in with the Port of L.A. and Long Beach a couple of weeks ago to get them to go to 24/7. In just the last couple of weeks, the share of containers sitting on docks idly has come down by 20 percent. Those are the kind of steps we can take in the short term. But I don’t want to under-- I don't think we should downplay the medium term here. If we can act immediately to invest in childcare, cut the cost of childcare in half for the typical family, that's going to be a game changer for families and help get more people into the workplace as well. We've got to work in the short term and the medium term here as well.

CHUCK TODD:

Brian Deese, the Chair of the President's National Economic Council. Mr. Deese, appreciate you coming on and sharing the administration's perspective here.

BRIAN DEESE:

Thanks.

CHUCK TODD:

When we come back, Trump advisor Steve Bannon has been indicted for defying a subpoena from Congress. And there may be more indictments coming. Congressman Adam Schiff joins me next.

CHUCK TODD:

Welcome back. Friday saw two major developments in the investigation of the January 6th Capitol insurrection. Former Trump advisor Steve Bannon was indicted by a federal grand jury on two counts of contempt of Congress for refusing to comply with a congressional subpoena. Bannon is expected to turn himself in tomorrow. Earlier on Friday, former Trump chief of staff Mark Meadows also defied a subpoena and the January 6th committee said it is considering holding him in contempt of Congress as well. So joining me now is a member of that committee. It's Democratic Congressman Adam Schiff of California. Congressman Schiff, welcome back to Meet the Press, sir.

REP. ADAM SCHIFF:

Thank you. Great to be with you.

CHUCK TODD:

All right, let's start with the Bannon indictment. Do you believe that this will shake loose others, who are not cooperating right now, to cooperate, knowing that the Justice Department isn't afraid to indict these folks for contempt of Congress?

REP. ADAM SCHIFF:

Without a doubt. And indeed, even before the Justice Department acted, it influenced other witnesses who were not going to be Steve Bannon. And now that witnesses see that if they don't cooperate, if they don't fulfill their lawful duty when subpoenaed, that they too may be prosecuted, it will have a very strong focusing effect on their decision making. So, it's very positive. I view this as an early test of whether our democracy was recovering. If our law is to mean anything, it has to be applied equally. And so I'm very glad the Justice Department has moved forward in this fashion.

CHUCK TODD:

Are you at all concerned that Mr. Bannon appears to enjoy being looked at as a martyr in MAGA world? And because he could get convicted, serve time, and still never be forced to testify?

REP. ADAM SCHIFF:

No, that is true. And I'm concerned, frankly, of what that represents, basically that the Republican party, at the top levels, that is Donald Trump and those around him, seem to feel that they're above the law and free to thwart it. And there's something admirable about thumbing your nose at the institutions of our government. And look, Bannon did what he did because for four years, that's what worked. They could hold Republican party conventions on the White House grounds. They could fire inspector generals, they could retaliate against whistleblowers. It was essentially a lawless presidency and they were proud of it. And yes, that ought to concern every American. We need a reestablishment of the rule of law in this country and I'm glad to see that -- that's happening.

CHUCK TODD:

You know, in the statement from the co-chairs, the chair and vice chair, Thompson and Cheney, they wrote about Mark Meadows: "Mr. Meadows's actions today, choosing to defy the law, will force the select committee to consider pursuing contempt or other proceedings to enforce the subpoena." Why is it only under consideration? He defied the subpoena. How is it not automatic?

REP. ADAM SCHIFF:

Well, you know, we have been moving very quickly to make these decisions and I'm confident we'll move very quickly with respect to Mr. Meadows also, but we want to make sure that we have the strongest possible case to present to the Justice Department and for the Justice Department to present to a grand jury. And that means making sure that we bend over backwards to reach any agreement we can with witnesses that are showing any willingness to engage. But when ultimately witnesses decide, as Meadows has, that they're not even going to bother showing up, that they have that much contempt for the law, then it pretty much forces our hand and we'll move quickly.

CHUCK TODD:

Jamie Raskin, who is also a member of your committee, has said he's open to the idea of limited immunity in exchange for this testimony, even for Mr. Bannon. Are you there?

REP. ADAM SCHIFF:

You know, it will have to be made on a case by-- that decision on a case-by-case basis. I certainly wouldn't want to prevent the Justice Department from prosecuting people who committed criminal conduct, for example, on January 6th, by giving them immunity to testify before our committee. So, we have to weigh whatever equities the Justice Department and the justice system may have. But I think with certain specific witnesses, we ought to consider it. But as that kind of immunity makes it very difficult to prosecute not just them, but sometimes others, we need to think about it very carefully.

CHUCK TODD:

Look, it's pretty clear what the strategy is here. Delay, delay, delay in order to try to run out the clock on the investigation. How are you going to combat this?

REP. ADAM SCHIFF:

Well, first of all, the fact that the Justice Department has moved as quickly as it did is really helpful because, as I mentioned, that's already having an effect on other witnesses who are coming forward and not choosing to go to jail, as Steve Bannon may. But also in the civil litigation over our effort to get documents from the archives, the courts themselves have recognized that Donald Trump essentially played our institutions for four years and played rope-a-dope in the courts. And moved with such expedition to reject Trump's claims in the district court a week or so ago, now the court of appeals is saying they're going to have a hearing by the end of the month. Courts don't generally move that fast and I think it's a recognition that Donald Trump has relied on justice delayed meaning justice denied. So, we and the courts are moving quickly.

CHUCK TODD:

I want to ask you something about the Steele dossier because it has been in the news for a lot of other reasons, including some questions about its validity. I want to play some recent -- some sound that you had on the Steele dossier over the years. Take a listen.

[BEGIN TAPE]

REP. ADAM SCHIFF:

According to Christopher Steele, a former British intelligence officer who is reportedly held in high regard by U.S. intelligence.

REP. ADAM SCHIFF:

When you look at just what has become public, some of the public information is very much in line with what is reported in that dossier.

REP. ADAM SCHIFF:

The most significant thing to me is that Christopher Steele may have found out, even before our own intelligence agencies, that the Russians were, in fact, aiming to help Donald Trump in the election.

[END TAPE]

CHUCK TODD:

As Chair of the House Intelligence Committee, do you regret giving some credibility to the Steele dossier before anybody had been able to verify anything in that? A lot of those clips were done before there was any good verification. Look, there's some news organizations that made the mistake of publishing this dossier without verifying it. That's a separate conversation for those news organizations. But you helped give it credibility. Do you regret it?

REP. ADAM SCHIFF:

I don't regret saying that we should investigate claims of someone who, frankly, was a well-respected British intelligence officer. And we couldn't have known, of course, years ago, that we would learn years later that someone who was a primary source lied to him. But what I just said, in the clip you just played, ends up being exactly right, which is Steele did reveal that the Russians were trying to help elect Donald Trump. That turned out to be all too true. And in fact, the Trump campaign chairman was giving internal campaign polling data to Russian intelligence while Russian intelligence was trying to help elect Donald Trump. So, the top line there of Russian help and Trump willingness to accept it and make use of it proved all too accurate.

CHUCK TODD:

Okay, the summary was accurate, but the details were incorrect. That does undermine the credibility, does it not?

REP. ADAM SCHIFF:

Well, certainly. You know, this Danchenko lied to Christopher Steele and then lied to the FBI. He should be prosecuted. He is being prosecuted. And I'll tell you this, if he's convicted, he should not be pardoned the way Donald Trump pardoned people who lied to FBI agents, like Roger Stone and Mike Flynn. So there ought to be the same standard in terms of prosecuting the liars, but I don't think there ought to be any pardon no matter which way the lie is cut.

CHUCK TODD:

Congressman Adam Schiff, Democrat, from California, member of the January 6th Committee, I appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us, sir.

REP. ADAM SCHIFF:

Thank you.

CHUCK TODD:

When we come back, how big a political threat is inflation to the Democrats' prospects in next year's midterms? Well, right now, it looks pretty big. The panel is next.

CHUCK TODD:

Welcome back. It is panel time. NBC News Capitol Hill Correspondent Leigh Ann Caldwall; Eugene Scott, the national political reporter for The Washington Post; Matthew Continetti of The American Enterprise Institute; and former Democratic Senator Claire McCaskill of Missouri. All right, let me put up a few data points here on inflation for everybody. First, here's where the price increases year over year. Gas is up nearly 50%. We heard a lot over the last six months about the used car issue. That's over 25%. But here's the stuff like groceries, meat, poultry, fish, and eggs up nearly 12%, and the rent up over 11%. But let me also show you this map here because it may actually explain why there's a feeling that some are more in touch with this issue than others. The red here is where inflation is the highest. If you look at that red, it looks like a lot of red political states as well. Look at the two coasts. It's certainly there, but where it's bluer, the impact is a bit less. So Leigh Ann, when you hear the sort of discordant messages on inflation, I mean, you heard Pramila Jayapal, "Oh, people aren't experiencing it." Well, maybe they've sort of baked it in. But in some of the red areas, they're feeling it hard.

LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:

Yes, that's right. That's why every single time I've spoken with Rick Scott, the head of the Republican Senatorial Campaign Committee, he has been talking about inflation for months. And this is what Republicans are focusing on. Democrats, on the other hand, they're focused on passing the Biden agenda, which there's some concerns that it could increase inflation. Democrats say that it won't. They say that the Build Back Better Plan will actually help inflation. They're hoping there's more money in people's pockets, that inflation is transitory and that it will go away. But there’s months to see to these elections.

CHUCK TODD:

Eugene, we're all transitory, depending on sort of -- I feel like that excuse, you have --

EUGENE SCOTT:

That's a very deep point.

CHUCK TODD:

It is. Well, but you've got to be careful there. What feels temporary on a stat sheet is somebody's reality.

EUGENE SCOTT:

Yes. It's a reminder that this is a big America. And you have to have messaging that targets where people are in different places. It's not a surprise, though, that Democrats want to lean heavily on the Build Back Better Plan because many of its programs are popular. So they feel like if they can move forward with that, the concerns many Americans may have with inflation, they're hoping will seem smaller compared to the victory the Democrats are hoping to get.

CHUCK TODD:

Claire, is this a political problem for the White House or a policy problem?

SEN. CLAIRE MCCASKILL:

No, it's both. Probably a big political problem. I mean, if we're talking about gas prices this time next year, next summer, then it's even going to be harder in the midterms, and it's already going to be hard. Job numbers are great. I mean, Biden's created more jobs in the first ten months of his administration than Trump did in the first two years of his administration. And by the way, he didn't have Covid then.

CHUCK TODD:

Right.

SEN. CLAIRE McCASKILL:

The job creation's great, but if you've got a job, but you're paying $5 a gallon for gas, that's all you think about. So I think it is a big political problem. And I'll tell you, Eugene, the problem with the Build Back Better and the infrastructure is how quickly can they execute? How quickly can those things feel real, as real as the price of butter in the grocery store? And I don't know if they can execute quickly enough to make them real enough to matter next November.

CHUCK TODD:

You know, Matthew, if we actually wanted to deal with this issue, there are three: you can raise taxes, you can raise interest rates, you can flood the labor market, right? Those are some things that could deal with inflation. I guess Republicans in '22 don't have to come up with a solution though, do they? They can just talk about it.

MATTHEW CONTINETTI:

No, they don't. I mean, Joe Biden arrived in this town, Washington, D.C., in 1973 just as the Great Inflation was ticking up -- picking up speed. Sank three presidencies. Hurt Nixon, hurt Ford, hurt Carter. Inflation is a presidency-ender. And the only way we know how to cure it, Chuck, is a deep and long recession.

CHUCK TODD:

Oh, that's really optimistic.

MATTHEW CONTINETTI:

I'm the bearer of bad news today.

CHUCK TODD:

That gets at the issue there this is not a policy answer. Right, this is one of those they've got to hope they're right about the supply chain. They've got to hope they're right about the labor market. And maybe they are, but we don't know.

LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:

And they have to hope that Covid goes away because they are blaming Covid in part on inflation and all of the problems. And that's why Democrats continue to be focused on the agenda. They are singularly focused on this. And they are pointing to the fact that inflation won't be an impact. Larry Summers, their favorite economist, who is big on inflation, saying that it is a problem, is now saying that their agenda, the Build Back Better Plan, will not lead to inflation. And they are pointing to that and just trying to get things passed.

CHUCK TODD:

All right. So if inflation is sort of the wet blanket of the economic story for the White House, this issue of party unity is turning into, I think, a problem on the Republican side. The bipartisan infrastructure bill has turned into this litmus test among the MAGA world. I want to put up the Republicans that have been threatened over their roads and bridges vote. Fred Upton, "It's this polarized, toxic environment. Worse than I've seen before." Don Bacon, "They are being intentionally deceived by some folks in our party in Washington and some of the so-called conservative outlets." "It's amazing people want to kill me over paving roads and clean water" said Andrew Garbarino of New York. This feels like we've gone over the cliff.

MATTHEW CONTINETTI:

It's a complete misreading, I think, of the situation. One, this bill is popular, right? And especially popular in the districts of Republicans who voted for it. Two, the bill basically collapsed whatever leverage progressives had over the Build Back Better Plan.

CHUCK TODD:

If you actually care about the politics of it, voting for it is --

MATTHEW CONTINETTI:

They were holding the infrastructure bill hostage in order to get Manchin to go more over to the progressive side. Well, now that's gone. The progressives folded, you know? How many infrastructure weeks did we have during the Trump administration? Finally, we got it. And what does Trump do? He turns against it. And why? I think it's very important to realize, he's trying to mold a Republican party that is going to guarantee him a coronation in 2024. That's what this is about. He should support infrastructure. But, more important is he wants an easy path to the nomination in 2024.

EUGENE SCOTT:

But this response isn't surprising. This is the logical --

CHUCK TODD:

No.

EUGENE SCOTT:

-- conclusion of where we've been for the last four years. I spent Friday calling multiple offices of the Republicans who voted for the bill to see if they'll show up Monday at the signing ceremony. And most did not even return our calls because you don't want that photo op to go against you when you're running in a primary against someone that Trump is backing.

CHUCK TODD:

Ironically, Claire, so far it appears Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski are the only two Republicans that are going to be there. Susan Collins, that was part of her campaign pledge, was to work with Democrats. She has to be there politically. And Lisa Murkowski may need Democrats to win reelection. So it actually makes political sense for them to be there.

SEN. CLAIRE McCASKILL:

I would hope some of the retiring members, the Rob Portmans, the Richard Burrs, the ones who voted for this bill, that they would show up. Frankly, it's probably better for Democrats that Trump captures the Republican Party in the long run. But for our country, this is really sad. And, you know, I didn't come to Washington in 1973 like Joe Biden, but I can assure you when I got here in 2007, it wasn't like this. There were Democrats and Republicans that worked together and passed bills all the time. This is weird.

CHUCK TODD:

But Claire, I also remember, though, back then we'd say, "Oh, it used to be so much better."

SEN. CLAIRE McCASKILL:

Well, I'm just telling you --

CHUCK TODD:

Every ten years, we do say it.

MATTHEW CONTINETTI:

These Republicans --

SEN. CLAIRE McCASKILL:

-- this is really bad --

MATTHEW CONTINETTI:

-- attacking these Republicans think that somehow the Republicans who voted for infrastructure are helping Biden. But they're wrong. They've hurt Build Back Better.

CHUCK TODD:

I banned logic during the Trump era because I think a lot of Trump supporters banned logic. Anyway, coming up, the issue that divides Americans more than any other. You'll see it in a minute. We'll be right back.

CHUCK TODD:

Welcome back. It's Data Download time and a deeper, more detailed look at our political breakdown in this country, beyond just red and blue. This week, the folks at the Pew Research Center divided voters into groups that show some of the more refined shades of red and blue, as well as purple, in the current political environment. I want to show you. They broke up -- they have four liberal groups and four conservative groups. And let me walk you through them. The progressive left, the smallest of this, this is your Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders wing of the party. Establishment liberals. This is where Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer fall. They're perhaps, you know, pro-defense, pro-business, very socially liberal. Then your Democratic mainstays. Bit more moderate than this group of establishment liberals. A lot of African Americans and Latino Democrats fall into this category. This is perhaps the most religious of the four categories on the left. A bit of an outlier among the other groups here. Then there's the outsider left. This is the youngest cohort of those on the left, the least connected to sort of a formal politics, as it will. And also, the least likely to probably show up and vote. Now the four conservative groups. Faith and flag conservatives. These are the most pro-Trump, most pro-MAGA. They believe Donald Trump won the election. Committed conservatives. This is sort of your more traditional Republican, the Mitt Romney, Paul Ryan wing of the party, if you will. As you notice, now the smallest part of the conservative movement. The populist right. These are the former blue collar Democrats that have become Republican voters, particularly in the Trump era. And the ambivalent right are also, like the ones on the left here, younger, less connected to the party as a whole. By the way, the populist right, the most anti-business of this bunch here, for what it's worth. Look, what was interesting here, the biggest dividing line was on the issue of race. If you believe a lot needs to be done to get equality in this country, you are in one of those four Democratic groups. And if you believe there isn't much that needs to be done to work on equality in this country, you're in one of these four Republican groups. This data does remind us, some divisions we already knew, but some of these divisions are a bit more refined. And it's worth looking at this. And by the way, if you're curious where you fall, our friends at Pew has a little test for you to take. Go to PewResearch.org and have a ball. When we come back, the trial of Kyle Rittenhouse who fatally shot two men at a Kenosha, Wisconsin protest last year. Could he be acquitted? And if so, how will the country react?

CHUCK TODD:

Welcome back. The Kyle Rittenhouse trial. It is inevitable that this has been politicized from the moment the event itself happened. Look, this might be the simplest way to show the divide on this issue. Josh Mandel, U.S. Senate candidate in Ohio, "Kyle Rittenhouse is the victim." Hakeem Jeffries, number four in the House of Representatives on the Democratic aisle, "Lock up Kyle Rittenhouse and throw away the key." Claire, this feels like an explosive issue that's going to happen next week no matter what happens.

SEN. CLAIRE McCASKILL:

My sense is that neither side will be happy with how this turns out. And you don't know. Summations will be important in this case because the jury will be reminded that this young man went hunting for this. I mean, he came to do this. And they'll be reminded that there was some back and forth, and so who's the initial aggressor? I do think there'll be a compromise verdict and no one will be happy.

CHUCK TODD:

Matthew?

MATTHEW CONTINETTI:

I do think it's possible to believe two things at once, which is that Rittenhouse had no business being there in Kenosha that night, doing what he was doing. But also, that the prosecution rushed to indict and may have over-charged him. And in so overstepping, may have set themselves up for a hung jury, a mistrial, or a potential acquittal on any of these six counts, right? There are many counts he may be acquitted and then, you know, a misdemeanor charge. No one will be happy.

CHUCK TODD:

This really has exposed our information bubbles because if you see it only in one place, you think one thing. And if you get sort of even a more balanced take, you're more likely to think, "Wait a minute, what the heck was he doing there in the first place?"

EUGENE SCOTT:

Absolutely. And that's where we are when it comes to culture wars across the board right now. Where you are getting your information, which lawmakers you're following, which activists you, you know, believe and trust is shaping your view of what's right and what's wrong on an issue like policing and Black Lives Matter and gun rights, and all of these culture, like, topics that this whole case is reminding us of that, for the most part, have been left last year in our media coverage. But we now know are something that people will be considering when we move forward to the midterms.

CHUCK TODD:

Leigh Ann, go ahead.

LEIGH ANN CALDWELL:

I was just going to say culture war, completely. But I also think that it's part of the larger picture of how our politics is treated and handled today. You know, looking at the Republican party and on the left too, there's a lot of violent rhetoric regarding Republicans, regarding on what position you take. You know, the far right is attacking those who voted for the bipartisan infrastructure bill. And I think it's all a destruction, really, of our political rhetoric. And everyone is in silos of where they stand on every culture issue that arises in the news.

CHUCK TODD:

It does feel like we are making violence seem like an easier choice.

SEN. CLAIRE McCASKILL:

I think so. And I think the thing we have to remember is that the laws have changed around guns dramatically in this country over the last decade. Not only is our country awash in guns, but you now have things like Stand Your Ground, where defining who the initial aggressor is becomes everything the prosecutor has to do. You've got the same thing going on with the trial down in --

CHUCK TODD:

Ahmaud Arbery. Yeah. Yeah, in Georgia.

SEN. CLAIRE McCASKILL:

Where this is one of these situations: Who's a vigilante? Are they doing the right thing? Or who is out hunting to kill unarmed people? And the laws give them a lot more ability to evade punishment for killing unarmed people. And it started with the Castle Doctrine. Now it's gone to Stand Your Ground. In Missouri --

CHUCK TODD:

20 years ago --

SEN. CLAIRE McCASKILL:

-- you know, you get a gold star if you carry a gun in Missouri. It's ridiculous.

CHUCK TODD:

Somebody to pick up on this point, 20 years ago there had been people at the NRA who would've actually criticized Rittenhouse and their parents for how they treated guns. Now you don't see that responsible gun owner rhetoric anymore.

MATTHEW CONTINETTI:

Well, I think the broader question is how do we get to a situation of what happened in Kenosha? What happened was the collapse of the rule of law, right? And when you have that situation, then you have vigilantism. And so when I look at these two trials taking place, I see the restoration of the rule of law. And it's going to be very important that that continues, especially going into the next presidential cycle.

CHUCK TODD:

It's a nice way of putting it. I hope you're right. I hope we all see it.

MATTHEW CONTINETTI:

Now I'm giving the good --

CHUCK TODD:

You're giving the good news.

MATTHEW CONTINETTI:

Gave the bad news last segment.

CHUCK TODD:

Yes, exactly. Thank you all for doing this today. And thank you all for watching. We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.

* * *END OF TRANSCRIPT* * *