CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday: Age old problem.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
We now have to finish the job, and there’s more to do.
CHUCK TODD:
After officially launching his 2024 campaign, focusing on Donald Trump, President Biden dismisses concerns about his age.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I can’t even say the number. It doesn’t – it doesn't register with me.
FMR. GOV. NIKKI HALEY:
The idea that he would make it until 86 years old is not – is not something that I think is likely.
CHUCK TODD:
Meanwhile, Donald Trump keeps his focus on Biden and the general election.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
He is grossly incompetent, has no idea what he’s doing.
CHUCK TODD:
Are Biden and Trump in a codependent relationship? Do they need each other in order to succeed in 2024? I'll talk to Vivek Ramaswamy, a millennial entrepreneur who is running for the Republican nomination. Plus: Disney vs. DeSantis. Disney sues Florida's Governor Ron DeSantis, accusing him of retaliating against the company.
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
I don’t think the suit has merit. I think it’s political.
CHUCK TODD:
But Republicans are now distancing themselves as the battle with the entertainment giant escalates.
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
I do worry that if this happens too many times, businesses that are thinking about coming to Florida are saying, “Maybe we don’t want to go there.”
CHUCK TODD:
And: Border surge. The Biden administration is bracing for a potential wave of migrants at the southern border when a Covid era restriction ends in less than two weeks.
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
Our border is not open and will not be open after May 11.
REP. MICHAEL MCCAUL:
This is irresponsible.
CHUCK TODD:
Will Biden's new strategy make a difference? I'll speak to Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas. Plus: “Look for Me There.” Grieving for his father and trying to honor his legacy, Luke Russert has written a new book on how he dealt with the sudden loss of his dad. Joining me for insight and analysis are NBC News Washington Correspondent Yamiche Alcindor, former Democratic Senator from Missouri Claire McCaskill, NBC News Capitol Hill Correspondent Ryan Nobles and Lanhee Chen, a fellow at the Hoover Institution. Welcome to Sunday, it's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
And a good Sunday morning. You know, it was 10 years ago this very month the Senate so- called “Gang of Eight” rolled out an immigration reform plan that they believed could finally pass Congress.
[START TAPE]
SEN. MARCO RUBIO:
We all wish we didn't have this problem. But we do. And we have to fix it because leaving things the way they are, that's the real amnesty.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM:
I think 2013 is the year of immigration reform.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
But it was not, and the laws haven't changed. Two years later, Donald Trump would launch his presidential campaign, building his entire political identity on the issue of being tough on immigration and tough on the border. Trump even promised to wall off the nation's 2,000-mile southern border. And though the wall didn't materialize, his administration – in an attempt at deterrence at the border – instituted policies that included separating migrant children from their parents and instituting the “remain in Mexico” program, which sent migrants back to Mexico while seeking U.S. asylum. Biden endorsed a sweeping immigration plan on his very first day in office, but the plan went nowhere, even though Democrats controlled both houses of Congress at the time. Instead, the administration has adopted several of the Trump policies he once criticized, including a transit ban, which will force some migrants to apply for asylum from their home countries. Now, as Biden formally runs for second term, the immigration issue – which he never mentioned this week in his announcement video – continues to be one of his toughest challenges. In 2021, more migrants crossed the southern border than in any year since at least 1960. And in 2022, the record was broken again. In two weeks, an emergency public health rule known as Title 42 – that has allowed both the Trump and Biden administrations to expel migrants and block most access to asylum at the border since March of 2020, allegedly to prevent the spread of Covid – will officially expire. And the U.S. relationship with Mexico has perhaps – the government, that is – has perhaps never been worse. With cooperation on the drug war at its lowest point in decades – thanks to an administration in Mexico that doesn't seem interested in dealing with the cartels – fentanyl, which is produced in Mexico with chemicals sourced from China, is now the leading cause of death for Americans between the ages of 18 and 49, according to our friends at the Washington Post. This week, ahead of Title 42 expiration, the Biden administration announced new steps to stem unauthorized migration, including opening new processing centers in Colombia and Guatemala, creating a new family reunification program and increasing assistance to counter smuggling. Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas acknowledged there would be a border surge, but he also said it does not mean more migrants should come.
[START TAPE]
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
The smugglers propaganda is false. Let me be clear: Our border is not open and will not be open after May 11.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
And Secretary Mayorkas joins me now. Mr. Secretary, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
Good morning, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, before I start on this, there's been a horrific execution-style shooting down in Texas. Authorities are now -- there's a manhunt right now for somebody who's armed and dangerous. I know you've been monitoring this, DHS is monitoring this. What can you tell us about the alleged suspect, Francisco Oropeza?
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
Chuck, it's a horrific crime. And I can assure you and the American people that law enforcement
will deliver accountability. The case is an active one under investigation so I really can't comment further.
CHUCK TODD:
There is some question about his citizenship. He supposedly had, I guess they referred to it as, a consulate card from Mexico, meaning he was here legally, but, perhaps, he had overstayed?
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
So, Chuck, I won't comment on it because it is an active case. The tragedy that occurred is, you described it correctly, just absolutely horrific. Our hearts go to the victims, the victims' families, those children. And we'll deliver accountability.
CHUCK TODD:
Do we know if federal authorities are involved in this right now, besides FBI and the local authorities? Is DHS? Are you -- is your team involved, border patrol, at all?
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
So we are monitoring the situation very carefully. But the FBI is the lead federal investigative agency. And, of course, working with the locals there.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me move to the announcement and what's coming in life after 42. There is already reports of Brownsville, Texas right now -- shelters are overwhelmed. The cities of Chicago and New York are already overwhelmed. What's May 12 going to look like if we're already overwhelmed before the expiration of Title 42?
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
A few things, Chuck. First of all, this is a really tough challenge and has been, as we all recognize, for years and years. We are seeing a level of migration not just at our southern border, but throughout the hemisphere, that is unprecedented. It is, I think, the greatest migration in our hemisphere since World War II. The president on day one delivered a solution. He delivered immigration reform legislation that we had hoped Congress would act on swiftly. They haven't. Within the constraints of a broken immigration system, we are doing so much. Our approach is to build lawful pathways, cut out the ruthless smugglers, deliver lawful pathways so people can access humanitarian relief without having to take the dangerous journey from their home countries. And at the same time, if they arrive at our southern border in between ports of entry, we will deliver consequences.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, I want to go through some specific scenarios. So an unaccompanied minor, under 18, that comes to our southern border on May 12th, what happens?
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
We follow the law. And the law --
CHUCK TODD:
And the law is what?
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
-- provides that we take custody of that child, and we have 72 hours within which to transfer that child, that unaccompanied child, to the Department of Health and Human Services. Then it is for the Department of Health and Human Services, HHS, to identify a relative, a sponsor in the United States to whom they can transfer care of that child.
CHUCK TODD:
Is, at all -- do you accept the idea that that is all considered a loophole to get into the country?
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
Chuck, we have to take a look at the humanitarian issue here. These are parents that are suffering such desperation, whether it's by reason of an authoritarian regime, tremendous violence, acute poverty, persecution, that they are so desperate that they send their children to the southern border alone. We have, the law provides, for humanitarian relief for these children. And we enforce that law.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, if a -- when a family comes to the border, if they've not done any of this pre-filing, if they've not filed for an asylum claim beforehand, they come to the border on May 12th, what happens to a family with children under the age of 18?
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
So we will exercise our enforcement authorities in a traditional immigration context. Remember, Title 42 is a public health authority, not an immigration authority that was delivered in response to the COVID-19 pandemic. When that ends on May 11th, we will use our immigration authorities under Title 8 of the United States code. That family will be placed in immigration enforcement proceedings, removal proceedings. They will make a claim -- if they make a claim for relief, we will adjudicate that claim for relief swiftly. If they --
CHUCK TODD:
What’s – define swiftly.
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
So it could be days or weeks. It is not going to be months and months.
CHUCK TODD:
Because we've seen that in New York, migrants are getting court dates in 2033. How does that happen?
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
So, we are -- what we have done now is we are going to be able to exercise our immigration enforcement authorities. We've been precluded from doing so by a court. We sought to end Title 42 long ago.
CHUCK TODD:
Okay.
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
Title 42 does not deliver an immigration consequence. Title 8 of the United States code does. If an individual is removed under Title 8, they will encounter an at least five-year bar on readmission to the United States.
CHUCK TODD:
Here's a question I have, there are two million asylum cases in the backlog right now. What happens to new asylum claims on May 12th? Do they get put in line behind these two million cases? Do they get -- this is why the quick adjudication, I get it in theory. How is it going to work in practice when we're sitting on two million -- a two million case backlog?
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
So we're going to focus on recent border crossers. But the point, the fundamental point, is we have more than two million cases in an immigration backlog that has been building year over year over year. What a powerful example of a completely broken immigration system. We have got to fix it. We need legislative reform.
CHUCK TODD:
What is a – you know, I've gone through this issue before, I know there's a comprehensive aspect that we need. But just for border enforcement in the migration, you need more money for, what? Do you want more processing centers in-country? Do you want a -- besides Columbia and Guatemala, do you want to open up centers in Honduras? Could you even open up a center in Venezuela, or do you trust that government to allow us to do that?
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
So, Chuck, we need resources for it all.
CHUCK TODD:
Okay.
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
But remember, the resources will enable us to move more quickly, more efficiently within a broken immigration system. So I just want to be clear that we are working within significant constraints. We need people; we need technology; we need facilities; we need transportation resources -- all of the elements of addressing the needs of a large population of people arriving irregularly at our southern border.
CHUCK TODD:
What's the definition of secure border to you?
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
It is, in the context in which we are working, it is maximizing the resources that we have available to us to deliver the most effective results. And something that is overlooked that I speak about frequently is the fact that our apprehension rates at our southern border are consistent with the apprehension rates in the prior administration. And why is that? It is because of the extraordinary, and extraordinarily heroic work, of our United States Border Patrol.
CHUCK TODD:
Well –
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
But the –
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah –
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
– challenge is enormous.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to ask you about Border Patrol because the union doesn't like you. And they make it pretty clear on social media this month and last month, the month before. These are all from Border Patrol -- the Border Patrol Union on you: "The chickens are going to come home to roost because of what he's done." They call you “a national disgrace.” "Remove Mayorkas” was their most recent tweet. How can you lead a group of people whose union wants you out of office?
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
Chuck, I'm incredibly proud to work with the United States Border Patrol. I have supported them vigorously since my first day in office. I will continue to do so, a tremendous source of pride. And I will tell you this --
CHUCK TODD:
What do you think the disconnect is? Do you think this is, this is media perception? Why do you think -- is this a political disconnect? Is this a red/blue divide? Just simply that you're in a Democratic administration? What do you believe it is?
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
Chuck, I'm focused on mission. That's what I'm focused on. I look at their needs. I try to fulfill their needs. We go to Congress and seek support. You know, this is the first administration since 2011 that has plussed up the Border Patrol with more agents. Our request of Congress for fiscal year 2024 is another 350 Border Patrol agents. That hasn't happened for over 12 years.
CHUCK TODD:
Let's talk about the fentanyl issue. The biggest impediment in dealing with fen -- the fentanyl issue, is it American's addiction? Is it the Mexican government's inability or, frankly, passe, passe relationship with the cartels? Or is it the fact that China so easily exports these materials? What's the, what’s the toughest aspect of this?
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
Chuck, it's a matter of supply and it's a matter of demand. No different than the scourge of drugs that has afflicted this country for decades. But I will tell you something, because I was a federal prosecutor for 12 years. I prosecuted cocaine trafficking cases, methamphetamine, black tar heroin, heroin. We haven't seen anything like fentanyl -- its toxicity. It is – these cartels are peddling in death and destruction. But we have to stop the flow of fentanyl and we also have to address the demand.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, in the '80s we covertly worked with the Colombian government to deal with these cartels in Columbia. And we had success. Is it time to deal, I mean, I know some people are calling for more direct military confrontation with these cartels, or to call them terrorist organizations. But is it time for a strategy that is similar to what we did with the Colombian cartels in the '80s?
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
So a couple things, number one, we are taking it to the cartels and with unprecedented strength and focus. And there's a misperception that Mexico is not a good partner in our fight against --
CHUCK TODD:
Is that government an ally or not? They don't act like an ally these days.
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
They are an ally. And we have a very close partnership with them. We don't --
CHUCK TODD:
Then how come they don't help on this fentanyl stuff? They seem to just allay this.
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
That is a misconception. I will tell you that we have transnational criminal investigative units. Our Homeland Security investigation's personnel are in Mexico --
CHUCK TODD:
AMLO denies it though. AMLO himself denies it in public that somehow how they’re -- that they're having anything to do with fentanyl trafficking.
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
Chuck, I can't speak to his public statements. I can speak to what happens on the ground operationally. And we work very closely with our Mexican partners. You know, that fentanyl though, you know, the precursor chemicals, the equipment used to manufacture it, much of it originates in China. And we've got to stop that flow.
CHUCK TODD:
And what is a good way to do that?
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
So, of course, our relationship with, with China is not very positive. We are working with our Mexican authorities. We are working with our partners internationally to put pressure on China to interdict the flow, to identify the transport companies, to cut off the finances, to hold individuals and companies accountable.
CHUCK TODD:
I'm going to ask you, you're in cabinet meetings. There's a lot of questions about President Biden and his ability to serve in a second term. You see him up close, face-to-face. What say you? Is he up, is he up for a second term?
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
Oh, Chuck, 100%. Incredibly sharp, incredibly probing, incredible command of the details, probing on the details, asking tough questions. Absolutely. I'm incredibly proud to serve in his administration. I am incredibly proud of the work that we have done across the board --
CHUCK TODD:
You have full confidence he can serve a second term?
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
100%.
CHUCK TODD:
Secretary Mayorkas, big task ahead of you. We will be back in touch to see how it's going.
SEC. ALEJANDRO MAYORKAS:
Thank you, Chuck. Look forward to it.
CHUCK TODD:
Thank you. When we come back, he is the youngest candidate running for president in 2024, Vivek Ramaswamy, a millennial businessman running for the Republican nomination, joins me next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. As America debates how old is too old to be president, the youngest candidate that's announced in the 2024 field is currently introducing himself to voters. Vivek Ramaswamy is a 37-year-old multimillionaire who graduated from Harvard College and Yale Law School. He made his fortune at a hedge fund and in biotech. And he ran an asset management company which calls itself “Anti-Woke.” A first-time candidate for political office, he says he has plans to start an anti-woke cultural movement.
[START TAPE]
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
We're in the middle of a national identity crisis. That leaves a vacuum in its wake, and when you have a vacuum that runs that deep, that is when poison fills that void. Pick your favorite one: woke-ism, transgender-ism, climate-ism, global-ism, Covid-ism.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
And Vivek Ramaswamy joins me now. Mr. Ramaswamy, welcome back. Well, actually welcome to Sunday Meet the Press.
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
Thank you. Good to see you again, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me start with this overall – look, you've got this “anti-wokeism.” You've written books about this. You’ve – this is your political identity. as you've introduced yourself to folks. I get it in a primary. Why are you convinced this message could actually work if you got the nomination in a general election?
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
I think I'm speaking as a member of my generation here, Chuck. But I think it's true of all Americans. We're all hungry for a cause right now in America. We're hungry for purpose and meaning. At a point when the things that used to fill our hunger for purpose: faith, patriotism, family, hard work, these things have disappeared. So, I see an opportunity to revive our missing national identity. I think that's something that Americans hunger for across the political spectrum, answering what it means to be an American today. You ask people my age that question, you get a blank stare in response. I think that is the vacuum at the heart of our national soul. I'm running for president to revive the ideals that actually set the nation into motion. And I think it's going to unite the country.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, it's interesting. Your rhetoric can sound uniting, and your answer just now. But then, you, you say the following things: "The trans movement has become a cult. We need to abandon climate religion in America. I definitely find the idea of systemic racism revolting." I say this – how do you square those statements with unification? These are divisive times. This is a polarizing time. We're pretty evenly divided on these cultural issues. How do unite – do you unite the country when you're essentially denigrating the views of half the country?
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
I don't think I'm denigrating the views of half the country. I mean, let's take the touchiest of those subjects right now, on the trans issue. I think that when a kid says that, "I'm born into the wrong body, that my gender doesn't match my biological sex," more often than not, that is a case of a mental health disorder. That doesn't mean you disrespect that person. It means they're crying out for help. I met with two young women who regret the decisions they made going through double mastectomies, one a hysterectomy, chemical intervention. Now, trying to teach kids across the country that when you're struggling inside, going through adolescence, yes, that involves some struggle. We live in a cultural moment today where adults are affirming that confusion rather than actually treating them compassionately. That's cruelty.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you ever talk to – do you ever talk to parents that have a kid who's going through this?
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
I have, actually.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah. I mean, I mean, it’s a parental – my point is –
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
It's a difficult place to be. I can acknowledge that.
CHUCK TODD:
That’s right. Yeah.
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
But what we need to do on both sides here is act with compassion, not really what makes us feel good about ourselves. And I think that's my main issue across what our response to transgenderism and to climate –
CHUCK TODD:
Well, let me ask this –
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
– it's solving the actual underlying issues rather than what allows you to signal your virtue.
CHUCK TODD:
What makes it compassionate, though, to pass a law that denies a parent making their own health care decision for their kid? That's the part of this – that doesn't sound very conservative and small-government to me.
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
Well, look, there isn't a state in this union that allows you to smoke an addictive cigarette before the age of 18, that allows you to get a tattoo before the age of 18. That's a body-altering change that a kid may later regret in life. So, I think it is perfectly reasonable to say that if you're after 18 years old, you're free to decide whatever you want to do. That's what it means to live in a free country. But below the age – age of 18, I think it's perfectly legitimate to say that we won't allow genital mutilation or chemical castration through puberty blockers for the purpose of transition.
CHUCK TODD:
You're calling it that. But how do you know it's that? Again, how do you know – are you confident that you know that gender is as binary as you're describing it? Are you confident that –
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
I am –
CHUCK TODD:
– it isn't a spectrum?
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
I am –
CHUCK TODD:
Do you know this is a scientist?
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
Well, there's, there’s two X chromosomes if you're a woman. An X and a Y, that means you're a man.
CHUCK TODD:
There's a lot of scientific research out there –
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
There's a biological basis for this –
CHUCK TODD:
There's a lot of scientific research out there that says gender is a spectrum.
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
Chuck, I respectfully disagree. Gender dysphoria for most of our history, although it's in the DSM-5, has been characterized as a mental health disorder. And I don't think it's compassionate to affirm that. I think that's cruelty. When a kid is crying out for help, what they're asking for is – you got to ask the question of, what else is going wrong at home? What else is going wrong at school? Let's be compassionate and get to the heart of that rather than playing this game as though we're actually changing our medical understanding for the last 100 years –
CHUCK TODD:
But I go back to this. If a parent is dealing with a child that has these – that may have these issues, trust me, the parent – the last thing they wanna do is consider something like this. But if that is what they think could help their child pursue happiness or there – or not to kill themselves, why take away that option? Again, why shouldn't it be up to the parent?
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
So, part of why parents now suddenly feel that way, let's ask ourselves that, Chuck, because we've created a culture that teaches parents that they're being bigoted or that they're bad people if they don't actually take those steps. So, part of what I think is – listen, gender dysphoria, for the rare few people who have suffered it, is a condition of suffering. My question is, why on earth are we going out of our way to create even more of it? And there's no doubt that the cultural movement in this country, even education, is creating more gender dysphoria. If it's a condition of suffering, let's not create more of it. That's what we're doing.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you about the Disney dust-up--
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
Sure.
CHUCK TODD:
– with Ron DeSantis. On one hand, I assume you agree with pushing back at Disney the way Governor DeSantis has rhetorically. But is there a point where you think it is too much to use government to punish business?
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
Here's where Ron DeSantis really lost it here. He’s gone on the wrong path as he claimed – and this part actually sounded good to me – Disney should have never had crony-capitalist, lobbying-related privileges in the first place. Here’s the part he doesn’t mention. One of those crony-capitalist privileges was – and I think the most relevant one – was codified into law by none other than Ron DeSantis in 2021. So Florida passed this political anti-discrimination statute, which I applauded at the time. It said if you operate internet companies, this includes streaming services like Disney does, that you can’t engage in viewpoint discrimination. Now here’s the funny dirty little secret of that. They wrote into a last minute exception into that law for anyone who also operates a theme park more than 25 acres in the state of Florida. That’s crony capitalism. And so the irony is Ron DeSantis, who’s now railing against crony capitalism and rolling that back, was the one who actually passed that into law for the case of Disney. So I think that undermines the credibility of his crusade. I prefer to get to root causes rather than doing political stunts.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you about the idea of cancel culture because it – I feel like the criticism that the right was making of the left two years ago, that it looks like some on the right are embracing cancel culture. I think Bud Light, I think about the transgender representative in Montana, who was basically kicked – not allowed to speak on the floor. Do you think some of this is going too far?
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
So look, I'm an opponent of victimhood culture, cancel culture, you name it. I've written a book about this. I do think that the way the culture war ends is not with a bang, but with a whimper, where both sides get infected by those same norms. ‘
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think the right's been infected by this?
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
One of the things I say to conservative audiences across the country is we have to be the party of free speech and open debate. We can't be the party that said – that says I won't talk to you. I'm here talking to you on NBC. There's other candidates in this race that say they won’t talk to NBC News. Ron DeSantis is one of them. I go to college campuses where other candidates refuse to go. So I think we got to practice what we preach. I'm in this race as a millennial as a young person who’s lived the American dream to actually walk the walk when it comes to free speech and open debate. And yes, I would like to see other Republicans rise to that occasion and do better starting with the debate stage in our own party this fall.
CHUCK TODD:
If Donald Trump doesn't do debates, will you not support him if he's the nominee?
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
Well, I'm not going to let him get away with that. Donald Trump –
CHUCK TODD:
What does that mean? What do you mean you're not going to let him get away with it? He can do what he wants to do.
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
I don't think the other candidates, including Donald Trump, are going to relish being on that debate stage with me. But I think that the way that he's shown in 2015, what people gave him credit for was that he was an outsider and a disruptor. I'm the outsider in this race. And I think that if you want to be part of, like Joe Biden, in an existing establishment that doesn't want to debate, I think people are hungry for new blood –
CHUCK TODD:
What should the party use as leverage to force him to show up on the debate stage?
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
I think it's the voters. I think it is my job and as a job of candidates to tell voters that if you want someone sitting across the table from Xi Jinping, if you want someone with the spine to take on the administrative state – it’s the top of my domestic agenda – you better darn well not be scared to show up on a debate stage with the new challenger. Donald Trump did a great job of that in 2015. I'm the outsider in this race.
CHUCK TODD:
You have indicated you would support a six-week abortion ban if you were a governor of the state in all of this. What would you do on a federal level? Would you create a floor on the federal level –
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
So, I believe in being principled on this, Chuck. I'm unapologetically pro-life. And like many in the pro-life movement, I believe that abortion is a form of murder. Murder, though, is regulated by the states, not by the federal government. I believe in the Constitution. I think Roe was wrongly decided. I've said so for a long time. This is a matter for the states, not the federal government. And I stand, I stand on principle there.
CHUCK TODD:
When does a fetus have constitutional rights?
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
So, look. Six weeks is – at the end of life when you lose brainwaves, that's our, that’s our moment of death.
CHUCK TODD:
Does – where in the Constitution does it say someone has constitutional rights as a fetus?
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
It's not codified in the Constitution. That's why this is a matter for the states. But I do believe that – I'm unapologetically pro-life. But one of the areas where we can do better in the pro-life movement is to walk the walk. Provide an easier option for women to get to yes. I support a conversation about adoption, child care, even greater responsibility for men. I think that's how we turn this issue into being a less divisive one than it’s been.
CHUCK TODD:
One of your big applause lines, that is a bit of a head scratcher for me, is defund the FBI.
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
Yeah. So I didn't say defund the FBI, I said shut down the FBI and replace it with something new.
CHUCK TODD:
Oh okay. So you want to shut down the FBI –
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
Yes –
CHUCK TODD:
What are you replacing it with?
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
I think it's a new apparatus built from scratch that actually respects the law instead of making it up. The funny thing, Chuck, is if you look at –
CHUCK TODD:
You think that the FBI constantly is making up the law? That is a huge charge. They’ve just stopped major fentanyl, you know, been able to get rid of – fentanyl. There's a lot of work the FBI does other than responding to complaints from elected officials who don't like investigations.
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
Well actually if you look over the course of the last 60 years, J. Edgar Hoover what he did to Martin Luther King, that was an affront. It's still the J. Edgar Hoover FBI that people walk into down the street here in Washington, DC. And I personally believe someone who's running to actually run the executive branch of the government, when you have a bureaucracy whose culture becomes so ossified, every once in a while, you need to turn it over. And I think that, yes, we need federal law enforcement, but that institution has, in a bipartisan way, become so, I think ossified in its own norms, in its own corruption, that we need to rebuild it from scratch and have something new take its place –
CHUCK TODD:
So, you're going to replace the FBI with a new FBI.
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
Well, with a new institution built from scratch to carry out federal law enforcement because the existing FBI, the people who work there, have worked there for so long that actually they're going to get – be getting in their own way. I think that that's actually important. And by the way, I also support –
CHUCK TODD:
All right. It does sound like, it does sound like you're just replacing the FBI with the FBI.
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
Well, the problem is there's people who have worked there for decades. And so, what I say is if I'm the U.S. president and I can't work for the federal government for more than eight years, which I think is a good thing, then none of those bureaucrats reporting into me should either. That's the point I'm making.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. Vivek Ramaswamy, you bring some energy to your campaign. We'll be following it. Thanks for coming on and sharing your views with us.
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
It's good seeing you, Chuck. Thank you –
CHUCK TODD:
All right. Before we go to break, our Meet the Press Minute. When President Biden officially announced his reelection campaign this week, his age immediately became an issue. Biden would be 82 on Inauguration Day if he was to win. Trump, by the way, would be 78, second-oldest president ever elected. The average age of a president at the start of their first term is actually 55. Back in 1975, then-President Gerald Ford, who was 62 at the time, mind you, talked about the role age played in his own upcoming election.
[START TAPE]
JAMES RESTON:
Here we are looking at '76. And most of the leading candidates are old geysers like me in their 60s. Now, we seem to have misplaced a generation here somewhere. Can – is the system out of phase? What explains this?
PRES. GERALD FORD:
I think age is a state of mind, obviously a state of health. I am in the early 60s. I feel as vigorous mentally and physically as I ever have at any time in my life. I don't think you should rule a person out just because they're – my particular age. On the other hand, I don't think you should rule out a younger person who by experience or intelligence or overall capability is a potential candidate.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
That was 48 years ago. When we come back, it's an extremely codependent relationship. Why the president and his predecessor need each other to run their 2024 campaigns. Panel is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Panel is here. NBC News Washington Correspondent, Yamiche Alcindor, NBC News Capitol Hill Correspondent, Ryan Nobles, Lanhee Chen, a fellow at the Hoover Institution, and former Democratic Sen. Claire McCaskill. Yamiche, when we saw the announcement video from Joe Biden, it was not about what he did. It felt like it is about who he's running against again. And it felt very much almost like – and they even referenced the first video. He really needs Donald Trump to be the nominee and Donald Trump responded in this Thursday by sort of focusing on him. Are they in a codependent relationship?
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
There is definitely benefits to having both of those men run against each other, in both of their minds. I also think Democrats are really coming to the realization that the culture wars that we talk so much about Republicans for waging also is something that Democrats should be robustly talking about because their voters are mobilized by that. The first few minutes of that video were January 6th, abortion and then you got into book banning. Having talked to voters, Democrats are very worried about their own freedoms and really want to wrestle that word back from Republicans. So I think you see Joe Biden in that video making that case and making sure that people say, "Okay, you might have done something for the inflation or the bills, but your life is at stake," and I think there's a little bit of, of fear, frankly, that's being leaned into there, which we also saw on, on the Republican side.
CHUCK TODD:
Ryan, what's interesting to me is on your beat in Congress you're already seeing members in each party start to focus on the other. We put up a list here. Debbie Stabenow, "politically for us, it's helpful if former President Trump is front and center." Jon Tester, "it's probably better for Biden to have Trump as the nominee." Then you look at the Republicans. Dave Carney, a strategist out of New Hampshire, "hey, Biden is an easy target." Wesley Hunt, a congressman from Texas, "two more years of this, I'm more and more confident every day." It is fascinating that both parties think the other guy is what keeps them –
RYAN NOBLES:
I've covered a number of political campaigns where you set the stage as saying, "the only person that could beat this candidate is this guy, and the only guy that can beat this candidate is the other guy." And it does seem, in many ways, that that – that's what this presidential campaign is shaping up to be. You know, the polls – you know the poll that we just conducted this week shows pretty clearly that most Americans don't want to see either of these two guys at the top of the ticket right now.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
RYAN NOBLES:
But we're in a situation where there aren't clear alternatives. And I think every time you go back to having this conversation of, "if it's not President Biden, then who is it?" and the same thing with President Trump right now. His stranglehold on the Republican base, which I see every single day, particularly in the House of Representatives, is so strong, the idea that there would be some sort of Republican alternative in a serious way right now, you know, just doesn't appear to be that clear.
CHUCK TODD:
Claire, if Trump weren't there, would there be more Democratic hand-wringing?
SEN. CLAIRE MCCASKILL:
Oh, I don't know. I – I don't think so. You know, I – would Joe Biden run no matter what? Yes, he would. I mean, inflation's down 40%. He's created more jobs than almost any president in the history of our country. He had – got the infrastructure bill through that Donald Trump kept talking about for weeks and weeks on end. So he has accomplishments. And I think he enjoys the job. And I think he would run no matter what, no question. But this is the other thing, Chuck, that people forget. This is never a referendum. Presidential elections, by the time they run around, is always, "well, who do you like slightly better than the two you don't like?" So it is a binary choice. And even if it's not Trump, extremism is on the ballot for the Republican party this time, whether they like it or not.
CHUCK TODD:
It's a choice, not a referendum. It's a choice, not a referendum. Every reelect campaign I've covered always loves –
SEN. CLAIRE MCCASKILL:
Exactly.
CHUCK TODD:
– to say that.
SEN. CLAIRE MCCASKILL:
Exactly.
CHUCK TODD:
And most of the time this century, Claire's right. It’s – that has been the case. Lanhee, Trump's focus on Biden right now. I don't sense that the Republican primary electorate is that interested in having a primary, do you?
LANHEE CHEN:
It doesn't feel that way right now. It's funny because we're pretty late in the primary cycle. But it still feels early.
CHUCK TODD:
I was telling –
LANHEE CHEN:
People will say –
CHUCK TODD:
Oh, it’s early. No it’s not!
LANHEE CHEN:
I mean, so the reality of it is I think the way this field – the way that this contest is shaping up, it's pretty clear people realize there's going to be one ticket against Trump. Trump will be there at the end of the day. The question is who the other person's going to be. And you see that in the interchanges, for example, between Gov. Haley and Gov. DeSantis. You're seeing a lot of people now starting to go after Ron DeSantis because they perceive – listen, there is an opportunity to be that other voice against Donald Trump when we get to early next year.
CHUCK TODD:
I guess. But boy, Ron DeSantis, you now have Republicans almost universally now criticizing his handling of the Disney thing. Let me play an array of Republicans critiquing him.
[START TAPE]
SPEAKER KEVIN MCCARTHY:
I don't think the idea of building a prison next to a place that you bring your family's the best idea.
SENATOR MARCO RUBIO:
I do worry that if this happens too many times, businesses that are thinking about coming to Florida are saying, "maybe we don't want to go there."
GOVERNOR NIKKI HALEY:
If Disney would like to move their hundreds of thousands of jobs to South Carolina and bring the billions of dollars with them, I'll let them know I'll be happy to meet them.
GOVERNOR ASA HUTCHINSON:
I don't agree how Disney has handled things, but you don't use the heavy hand of government to punish a business.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Ryan, the number two candidate is getting the pile-on right now, not the frontrunner.
RYAN NOBLES:
Yeah, it's interesting. I've, I’ve talked to some DeSantis advisers about this, and there is a recognition about how he's being pillared right now by not just Republicans, but Democrats as well. And what they keep saying is, "just wait for him to get in the race." You know, he's obviously amassing a huge war chest right now, both within his super PAC, and he has the ability to raise a lot of money as a candidate himself. And so their – you know, their feeling is, until he's actually a candidate, we really shouldn't be overstating the difficulty that he's having in this early part of the campaign.
CHUCK TODD:
Yamiche, there was a former Florida governor who had so much money that was going to be a huge factor in 2015. How'd that work out?
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
With a famous last name too.
CHUCK TODD:
With a famous name.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
That didn't work out very well. And I – and when you look at Ron DeSantis, and I've talked to some conservatives about this, they say going to war with Disney, not only does it look petty and look small, but you're also going after a huge employer of blue collar people who are going to be your base voters. So if Disney starts telling their employees, "hey, this is a problem. And here's the person who's making your life hard," it's going to be hard for Ron DeSantis.
CHUCK TODD:
Is this over before it begins, Lanhee? I know nobody wants to say that –
LANHEE CHEN:
I don't –
CHUCK TODD:
– but boy, it smells rough.
LANHEE CHEN:
I think a lot of this does change – I mean, it's not about him getting in the race. The question is these primary contests are always sort of battles of attrition, infrastructure building. All that stuff that doesn't get covered, that's what matters. And so he's got the money to be able to compete in a way that I think people, people need to pay attention still. I mean, look, the last couple weeks have been uneven. There's no question about it. But that is not what I pay attention to.
CHUCK TODD:
Claire, Barack Obama was in this position against Hillary Clinton and they were going, "oh, maybe he's not going to get there." Do you see any similarities, or do you think DeSantis is in a different spot?
SEN. CLAIRE MCCASKILL:
Oh I think – you cannot compare DeSantis to people who have been tested on a national stage, like Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. This guy's not ready. He declared war, and he doesn't even know what victory is, against Mickey Mouse. Give me a break.
CHUCK TODD:
Mickey Mouse. When we come back, the culture wars can be used to motivate the base of a political party, but our latest NBC News poll reveals why they may be an important test for candidates in 2024.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back, Data Download time. As we head into 2024, the culture wars are dominating the conversation right now, as we continue to debate what kind of country we should become, and how quickly that change should happen. Numbers from our most recent NBC News poll suggest the nation is pretty open to social change. And that possibly could give Democrats an advantage with some of these cultural issues among the national electorate. Let me show you what I'm talking about here. Do we need to do more to increase social justice? It's a pretty popular expression of support overall. 70% of Americans agree with that. And, believe it or not, there're not a ton of differences by party. 91% of Democrats agree with it. But 67% of Independents, looks like the country as a whole. Half of Republicans believe we need to do more to increase social justice. When you start to ask a little bit more, you start to see some diversions by party. Should we be more tolerant and accepting of the LGBTQ community? Overall, that's 61%, slightly less than the social justice number. And here, you see some divergence, right? Democrats and Independents both have majorities who believe we should be more tolerant with this community. Republicans, however, an outlier with just 38%, a lot of that driven by the trans issue of late. And in fact, on the issue of trans people, have we gone too far in accepting trans people? A plurality of the country agree with that statement, that we've gone too far, 48%. Start to look at it by party, you see a big disparity that goes the other way. Just 19% of Democrats believe that, but Independents, looks like the nation overall, nearly 80% of Republicans believe we have gone too far on that. But I want to give you a historical nugget here to keep something in mind, and it's the historical trend line of the legalization of same-sex marriage. Less than 20 years ago, it was two to one opposition to same-sex marriage. And in less than 20 years, those numbers completely flipped. And something in our poll we noticed, if you knew somebody who was gay 20 years ago, you were more likely to support-same sex marriage. If you know somebody who is trans, you're more likely to support an openness to accepting on that as well. Up next, grieving for his father and trying to honor his legacy. Luke Russert has written a new book on how he dealt with the sudden loss of his dad.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. At a crowded Orioles game at Camden Yards, Luke Russert remembers his dad, Tim, pointing to a hot dog stand, saying, "Buddy, if we're ever separated, look for me there." When Tim died at 58 of a heart attack in 2008, Luke followed his father to NBC News, becoming a Capitol Hill correspondent here. But after eight years of working in television, Luke realized he didn't have a good answer to the question of why he was chasing his father's legacy. He set off on more than three years of travel to six continents, searching for his father and for himself. And Luke Russert, author of “Look for Me There: Grieving My Father, Finding Myself” joins me now. Luke, welcome back to Meet the Press.
LUKE RUSSERT:
It's such an honor, Chuck. Such an honor. I still get chills every time I see the logo and hear the music. It's – it’s pretty special.
CHUCK TODD:
I get chills introducing you right now, I'll be honest.
LUKE RUSSERT:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
You were 22 when your dad died. And it seems that you're looking back now and realize you didn't process it then.
LUKE RUSSERT:Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
Talk about it.
LUKE RUSSERT:
Yeah. Well, he died and it was such a whirlwind of emotions. And we came back to Washington. My mother and I were actually in Italy when it happened, which turned out to be a little bit of a blessing because we had one day to ourselves together as a family, as mother and son, to begin to process what had happened.
CHUCK TODD:
He was with you two days earlier, right --
LUKE RUSSERT:
Two days before he passed away, at the Vatican, which is so fitting considering my father's Catholic upbringing. But when we came back, we thought that people would mourn him. We had no idea there was going to be such a national outpouring of grief. He had thousands of people at his wake. And I ended up giving a eulogy at Holy Trinity Catholic Church here in D.C., and then eventually the Kennedy Center. And a lot of people saw that, and that sort of catapulted me into a very public, forward-facing space. But I was still trying to sort of reconcile, "What should I do?" And I think in the beginning --
CHUCK TODD:
What were you, weeks from graduating college, right? You had --
LUKE RUSSERT:
Three weeks out.
CHUCK TODD:
-- just finished Boston College.
LUKE RUSSERT:
I had graduated college, and about three weeks later I'm looking out over a set of pews at Barack Obama, John McCain, Ethel Kennedy, Joe Biden. It was – it was a whirlwind.
CHUCK TODD:
It's still surreal to think about that day.
LUKE RUSSERT:
It is still surreal. And I look back on that, and I think about, "Man, 22-year-old Luke, you had so much courage, you had so much poise. But you never really dealt with, you lost your dad. You lost your best friend. And you went into this immediately public-facing role because you were trying to preserve his legacy the best you knew, and you were trying to bring comfort to people. But it ultimately did not bring comfort to you."
CHUCK TODD:
You wrote something that I thought was pretty brave about yourself. You write this: "It's apparent that I've spent so much time honoring his legacy that I've never truly accepted his death. Worse, by honoring that legacy I've failed to forge my own life."
LUKE RUSSERT:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
That's a – that’s a pretty brave thing to write publicly, buddy.
LUKE RUSSERT:
One of the things that I've found going through this process was I had written out all these journals when I was traveling around the world, and I didn't know really what was in them. But when I took the time to read them, I realized I was looking for something. And what I was looking for on this journey was, "Who am I, independent of my parents? Who am I, independent of my hometown? Who am I, independent of the ways of Washington?" And I never was able to truly figure that out because I was so attached to Dad. He was my guiding light. He's gone. I try to stay in that lane, but I never really ask those difficult questions of, "Who are you? What do you want to do?" because it was greatly uncomfortable. And to ask those questions, I would have to deal with the fact that he was really gone, which was something that I just tried to conveniently power through, and white-knuckle, and not really think about too much.
CHUCK TODD:
So of all people, it's John Boehner –
LUKE RUSSERT:
Yeah.
CHUCK TODD:
– that sort of, what did he, flip a switch in your head? What did he say to you that made you say, "Wait a minute, I got to rethink this --"
LUKE RUSSERT:
I was turning 30, I had lost a good friend of mine at 27, and my father died at 58. So I saw the light at the end of the tunnel. Friends were getting married, getting mortgages. So I kept thinking about it, "Is this everything that's going to happen with me in my life? Is this really what I want?" I was having anxiety around the position. There were so many days where I would white-knuckle it through on television, and I wouldn't even know why. "Why is that? Why am I feeling that way? Maybe I should take some time away." And out of nowhere, John Boehner, the House speaker at the time, who I covered rather aggressively, says, "I need to talk to you." And I thought he was going to be angry about coverage. And he takes me into his office and he goes, "What are you doing here?" I said, "Well, you invited me into your office. What do you mean, what am I doing here?" He goes, "No, what are you doing here on Capitol Hill? You've been here eight years, you spent all your 20s here. I'm the Speaker of the House, I want to tell you something. There is a world outside of Washington. There is a world outside of this place, the Capitol. Time is a flat circle here. You could end up 50, 60 years old, and not even know that time has gone by. Make sure this is what you want to do, and go out and do something else if you want. It's okay. Go learn how to do something." And part of it I think was that Washington can be fleeting, and the connections that you make with people can be purely political. Go out there and really understand human beings. And it was a very impactful statement, because Boehner grew up one of 12 children, Catholic upbringing in Cincinnati, very similar to my father. Rust Belt, worked his way through college. So it didn't fall on deaf ears at all. I was – I was really shaken up by it.
CHUCK TODD:
So I think anybody that's lost somebody close to them, I think this is a book that can help them. You poured yourself out in this. Not easy to write about your mom. Your mom's still here, doing great. I mean, Maureen Orth is a force of nature. I love her to death. I know you do too. How's this changed things for you two?
LUKE RUSSERT:
When one parent dies, your relationship with the surviving one, for the children or the child, always changes. And in my case, it was this mix of, "You're now the sort of man of the house, there are all these logistical things to deal with that Dad used to always take care of." But then sometimes it was, "Well, you're my son. Just do it." So it was trying to navigate this pattern of, "Where really are you in the structure?" And also as a mom, she was more sort of the disciplinarian where my dad was the sort of, you know, do a little good cop/bad cop. He was sort of the easier guy to get along with at some points. But then I realized when I started traveling -- because my mother was a Peace Corps volunteer at a very young age, when women, when they graduated college, really had limited opportunities. It was: be a paralegal or a teacher. And she said, "I want to do something else." So she goes to Colombia, goes to the Peace Corps. And it's through travel and measuring herself against the world that she really knows who she is. And she had wanted me to do that my entire life. I had never really traveled. And it was not until I did that that I understood her. She had to fight so hard for everything she got, and that is why she demanded a lot out of me. She said, "You got to be tough, and you’ve got to show yourself."
CHUCK TODD:
Feel like you’ve found yourself?
LUKE RUSSERT:
I think we're always a work in progress. But as it pertains to losing my father, I'm at peace with that. I've accepted it, and I'm so much better for it.
CHUCK TODD:
Where are you headed next?
LUKE RUSSERT:
I like storytelling, so hopefully this book does well and that opens up some opportunities in that area.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, man. Nice to see you.
LUKE RUSSERT:
Thank you so much for having me, Chuck. It's such an honor.
CHUCK TODD:
Honor's mine, brother. The honor is mine.
LUKE RUSSERT:
Appreciate it.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, we’ll be back next week, because if it’s Sunday, it’s Meet the Press.