CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday, taking on Trump. The Republican primary field will be expanding this week as Florida Governor Ron DeSantis and South Carolina Senator Tim Scott both jump into the 2024 race.
GOV. RON DESANTIS:
I think the party has developed a culture of losing.
SEN. TIM SCOTT:
It’s time for us to be proud to be Americans and proud of our president.
CHUCK TODD:
Can either candidate make the case he's the better alternative to Donald Trump and unite the party in the process in the primary battle ahead? I'll talk to Republican Congressman Byron Donalds of Florida who is currently backing Donald Trump. Plus, flirting with disaster. Debt ceiling negotiations break down, restart and then stop again.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Default is not an option.
SEN. KEVIN McCARTHY:
This White House will not acknowledge that they’re spending too much.
CHUCK TODD:
What's really going on inside the talks? Is either side negotiating in good faith? And how serious is the June 1st deadline for a catastrophic default? I'll talk to Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen. And, abortion politics.
CROWD:
Shame! Shame!
CHUCK TODD:
Republican lawmakers in Nebraska and North Carolina pass new abortion restrictions as Democrats prepare to fight back.
GOV. ROY COOPER:
Politicians shouldn’t push their way into the exam room with women and their doctors.
CHUCK TODD:
President Biden's 2024 campaign is already planning to focus on the new ban in the swing state of North Carolina. How will the battle over abortion rights impact the 2024 race? I'll talk to North Carolina's Democratic Governor, Roy Cooper. Joining me for insight and analysis are NBC News Managing Washington Editor Carol Lee, Dan Balz, chief correspondent for The Washington Post, former Republican Congressman Carols Curbelo and Symone Sanders-Townsend, former chief spokesperson for Vice President Kamala Harris. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning. This is going be one of the busiest weeks yet in the presidential campaign, as the 2024 Republican field grows, so do concerns among some Republicans that none of Donald Trump's current rivals are going to be able to beat him in a primary. South Carolina Senator Tim Scott is announcing his campaign tomorrow in his hometown of North Charleston before heading to the early states of Iowa and New Hampshire. And Florida Governor Ron DeSantis is expected to formally file paperwork for president this week, a bit of a soft launch of his campaign with a video and a donor retreat at the Four Seasons in Miami, before formally having the big campaign rally announcement later in the month. But when the year began, DeSantis had the look and feel of not just of a frontrunner, but of a potential juggernaut. But the last five months have not been kind. Trump has relentlessly attacked him, and under those attacks, DeSantis has floundered a bit. He has struggled with big donors who have complained quite publicly that he “doesn't even return phone calls.” Others don't like his position on abortion, the six week ban, and believe it would be a problem in a general election. And still others worry about his charisma. He launched a book tour. It was immediately overshadowed when he called the Ukraine war a "territorial dispute.” He walked it back after some donors complained. Then, there's the fight with Disney, where he took a political advantage and a victory, and it has now turned into a political problem. The DeSantis slump has made more Republicans, who believe Donald Trump cannot win a general election, flirt with jumping into this race themselves. From New Hampshire Governor Chris Sununu, to North Dakota Governor Doug Burgum, to former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie. And if no alternative materializes there, donors are likely to keep shopping for Republicans with general election appeal like Governor Brian Kemp or Governor Glenn Youngkin — who himself rolled out a curious video this week casting himself as the successor to Ronald Reagan. In the meantime, it appears that the first big fight between the two current frontrunners for the Republican nomination will actually be over the issue of abortion, and whose position makes them more electable. Ironically, that electability fight may not be about January 6 and Trump's growing legal baggage. This week Trump said that "many people within the pro-life movement" feel DeSantis's six-week abortion ban was “too harsh." Well, DeSantis responded to Trump earlier this week:
[START TAPE]
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
As a Florida resident, you know, he didn’t give an answer about “Would you have signed the heartbeat bill that Florida did, that had all the exceptions that people talk about?” The legislature put it in. I signed the bill. I was proud to do it. He won’t answer whether he would sign it or not.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is Republican Congressman Byron Donalds of Florida. Donalds, by the way, introduced DeSantis at his election night victory party in November. And last month, he became one of 11 Florida congressional Republicans to endorse Donald Trump. Congressman Donalds, welcome to Meet the Press.
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Yeah, it's good to be with you, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Before we start with the politics, sort of the political junkie conversation, let's talk about the debt ceiling. You’re a member of the Freedom Caucus on here. Where – are you going to be comfortable with a deal that you probably personally won't like, but it's a deal that sort of maybe progressives don't like and the Freedom Caucus doesn't like, but it’s – it can pass? Are you going to be able to accept a deal like that?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Chuck, to be blunt with you, we're not really sure what deal's even on the table. The White House is not serious. They came up with a proposal to spend another $30 billion more than they already wanted to spend. They're not taking a look at the reality of where our country is fiscally. Look, Joe Biden is saying that he's cut $1.7 trillion from the deficit. But everybody's saying that's not true. That’s – what he actually has done is he's $1 trillion over what CBO was projecting spending was going to be because after all of the COVID spending in the last year of President Trump, that Congress wasn't going to extend that, and Joe Biden did. So we're in a situation right now where the only plan in Washington has been passed by the House of Representatives. It's the only plan. Joe Biden's not serious at the negotiating table. I've talked with my colleagues who are in that room. So at this point, really the question is: what's the Senate going to do? Where's Chuck Schumer in all this? Because the Senate has not done any work at all. And Joe Biden has not done any work at all.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me get you to respond to something former President Trump said about the debt ceiling of 2019. Take a listen.
[START TAPE]
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I can't imagine anybody ever even thinking of using the debt ceiling as a negotiating wager.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Why don't you agree with him on this?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Well, first of all, he also said the other day on a rival network that he said that when he was president, and when they asked why he wasn't saying it now, he said because he's not president. Listen, Donald Trump is always negotiating —
CHUCK TODD:
Do you realize how absurd that sounds?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
That is not absurd. He's always negotiating, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
How is that not absurd? It's absurd.
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Chuck, he's always negotiating. That's what he does. And it's actually one of the reasons why so many deals for our country worked out to our benefit, as compared to his predecessors, both Republican and Democrat, because he's always negotiating.
CHUCK TODD:
But do you realize how partisan that sounds?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
That is not a partisan statement.
CHUCK TODD:
"What is – what is good for me is not for thee." He's basically saying, "When I'm president, –
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Right.
CHUCK TODD:
– there's no negotiating on this. But, hey, when somebody else is president, screw them."
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Well, no, here's the thing. Let's be – let’s be realistic now. When Donald Trump was negotiating debt ceiling with Nancy Pelosi, mind you, they negotiated that.
CHUCK TODD:
– No, they didn't.
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
When they were –
CHUCK TODD:
They raised it without any restrictions.
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
When they were, when they were, when they were doing that, our economy was thriving, our debt levels were not where they are right now. We were about $24 trillion, not $32 trillion. We weren't having massive deficits the way we are right now. It was a very different environment. Now, you have $32 trillion on the credit card. And all House Republicans are saying is, "Let's go back to pre-pandemic spending." That's common-sense stuff.
CHUCK TODD:
But there's one more thing House Republicans are asking for, which is they want fewer IRS agents. They want fewer attempts to try to properly get tax receipts into the federal government’s coffers. I have never understood the resistance of extra IRS agents, unless you knowingly cheat on your taxes.
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
That – First of all, that's salacious and you know that. Most Americans, by far, pay their taxes and they do it honorably. What House Republicans, and, frankly, Republican party is concerned about is having IRS agents go after middle-class families and small business owners. When you have that many more agents, it's not to go after the rich. It's to go after the middle class.
CHUCK TODD:
Again –
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
That's what it's for.
CHUCK TODD:
Again, if you're paying what you're supposed to pay, then you should have nothing to fear.
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
You would make the assumption that IRS audits are up, that they're putting out more liens on the American people. That's not true. That data's not there. All Joe Biden's trying to do is find every possible nickel out of every couch from every American to pay for his radical spending. Why would we do that? Listen, let me contrast for you. When we passed the Tax Cut and Jobs Act, CBO said it was going to cost $2 trillion. That's actually not true. What ended up happening was the federal government took in $1 trillion more than CBO actually projected. The economy grew another 1% over projections.
CHUCK TODD:
In fairness, we can't litigate the tax cuts because of what happened with Covid. We don't know how much –
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Chuck –
CHUCK TODD:
This ate into everything, but it certainly looks like there were going to be fewer revenues coming into the government. But we don't know. In fairness, there's no –
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Fewer, fewer revenues now?
CHUCK TODD:
There’s no – there’s no, there's no ability to litigate this because of what happened with COVID and the extra spending.
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
That is not true, Chuck. In 2019, we took in more revenue than we ever have in the history of our nation, as bunch of a percentage of our economy than we ever have, as a nation. That was 2019.
CHUCK TODD:
It also added. It also add –
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Tax receipts were still up.
CHUCK TODD:
You realize that President Trump has added more to the deficit than Joe Biden?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
You’re going to use –
CHUCK TODD:
I – I – digress –
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
But most of it is Covid.
CHUCK TODD:
Now let’s be clear –
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
But most of it was Covid.
CHUCK TODD:
I'm listening. About half of it's Covid and half of it's the tax cut.
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
That is not true because we raised more –
CHUCK TODD:
The numbers are numbers.
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
We raised more revenue than CBO projected. If you bring in more money than your projections are, how are you adding to your deficits, Chuck?
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah. And if you pay – if somehow, you keep cutting taxes but more revenue comes into the government, that math doesn't work over time. You can have it in the first, first year, due to some various accounting tricks. But it doesn't work over time.
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
No, Chuck. That is not true. The purpose of tax policy is to raise revenue for the federal government, not to equalize society. After the Trump tax cuts were passed, more tax revenue has come to the federal government than in any other time in the history of our nation. Those are the facts.
CHUCK TODD:
Raw dollars can happen because we do have a growing economy –
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
And a percentage of the economy.
CHUCK TODD:
But we do have a growing economy. Let me ask you this on caps. There is – do you want to see caps on defense spending, as well as domestic spending? Because right now, there seems to be a dispute, whether there's going to be budget caps only on domestic or Republicans are also wanting caps on defense spending.
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
So internally, we're having this discussion about defense. We're looking at trying to see a way to keep defense spending in line because, you know, there are threats all over the globe. We see it in Ukraine. We see what's happening with China's saber-rattling with Taiw – Taiwan, etcetera. So we want to make sure that our military preparedness is where it needs to be. But at the same time, House Republicans are not looking at just letting the Department of Defense just have massive radical increases as well. We have to control spending everywhere in our government.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me go back to the reality of politics. Tom Cole said, "Any deal is going to lose people like you in the Freedom Caucus and people on the progressive side." And he, and he added this to The Dispatch. He said, "We're not going to have a deal if the President of the United States doesn't sign it. And we're not going to have a deal if the majority of the House doesn't support it. So each side's not going to just simply give the other side what it wants. It's politics 101." I go back to my first question: Do you accept that premise?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
I accept – I accept the premise, but Joe Biden's got to come up with a deal. He doesn't have one. I would ask him – you should ask him, if he actually would take your question. You should ask him if he has a plan, if he has a strategy. The only thing he's ever said is, "we should – it should just be clean." But nobody with an economic mind is saying, "Yeah. Sure. Just give the federal government a blank check."
CHUCK TODD:
So are, are you comfortable with breaching the debt ceiling?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
No. I'm not comfortable with that. This should have been done 100 days ago. House Republicans have been working on this for three months. I've been in the room. I've been in those meetings. And while we were working on a strategy to raise our nation's debt ceiling, which is something the House of Representatives has passed, Joe Biden was ignoring it and Chuck Schumer was ignoring it. And I think that he has been derelict in his duty.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you about the presidential race. So we've got off – more on the debt ceiling than I think either one of us expected. I want to play your celebration of Governor DeSantis and ask about it on the other side.
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Sure.
[START TAPE]
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
The newly re-elected, Democrat-beating, freedom-standing-for, America's governor, Ron DeSantis.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Obviously, you chose to support, right now, Donald Trump, instead of, who you described as, "America's governor," there. What could Governor DeSantis have done to convince you to stick with him and not the former president?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Well, first of all, that, that speech was pretty good, Chuck. You've got to acknowledge that. That was good stuff. Anyway, to me, it's not really about Donald Trump versus Ron DeSantis, it's about what America needs. That's where I've been, really, since day once. We – I talked a little bit about foreign policy in the last block. We have a situation right now where Russia's on the move and China is on the move. We need somebody who can step in, day one, look at Vladimir Putin, look at Xi Jinping, and say, "Okay. Enough. I'm back. We're going to get everything —"
CHUCK TODD:
– And you don’t think DeSantis has that ability?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
I think it's going to take them time. I think there's only one person who has that ability right now and it's Donald Trump. And for all the naysayers who would say, "Oh, he's unpredictable. Oh, we don't know what he's going to do," let's be very clear. When he was president of the United States, the world was in a much safer place. Nobody can say that the world is safer now than when it was when he was president.
CHUCK TODD:
He called January 6th, “a beautiful day." That is not something many people associate January 6th with. Do you really think that's an electable position?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Look. I think what happened on January 6th was a terrible day for the country.
CHUCK TODD:
You don’t think it was a beautiful day?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
I was on the House —
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
I was on the House floor. It was a terrible day for the country. But that also being said, we have a situation where we've got to get the country back on track. I made a comment the other day that as, as bad as January 6th was, the American people aren't consuming January 6th the way the media and Washington is consuming, consuming January 6th. Our country has to get back on track.
CHUCK TODD:
It’s pretty scarring in Washington. In fairness to Washington, it was a pretty scarring day for Washington.
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
It was. It was. But what's happening to our southern border right now? That's scarring for people who live at the southern border. What's happening for middle-income families when their wages are being eroded by a massive inflation brought to us by Joe Biden? That is the stuff that the American people are concerned about right now.
CHUCK TODD:
There's been some talk that you might be interested in running for governor in 2026. So let me ask you this. Would you have signed the six-week ban or do you think that's too much?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
You know, honestly, that's something where you have to deal with your legislature on that. You have to look at your legislature. You have to deal with the people in, in your state. And you figure out what that process is going to be.
CHUCK TODD:
It sounds like that – it sounds like you think six weeks is too much. You're not comfortable saying –
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Well, they also put – they also put lot of exceptions into it. But I wasn't in the legislature when they did this. I want to be blunt with you.
CHUCK TODD:
I understand.
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
I'm not sure where the, where the governor was and the legislature was on this. What I would tell you is this is a far better place to be than when Roe v. Wade was the law of the land.
CHUCK TODD:
Donald Trump thinks it's too much, it's too extreme. Do you agree with him on that?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
I think he is going to figure out what he thinks is going to be the best thing for the country. He said that already. He's on the record with that. Look, abortion politics is very personal. It's very, very personal. And it’s obviously – we all know it's, it’s hyperbolic in our country. People are all over the place.
CHUCK TODD:
Isn't that a reason not to have government try to get so involved in it, by the way?
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Well, I would argue that the Supreme Court already did that. They did that for 50 years. And that's why it was important to return this back to the states because the country's never really had to deal with the politics of abortion. Compare us to the European countries. America's abortion policy is radical compared to the European countries. Most European countries are ten to 12 weeks. That's where they are.
CHUCK TODD:
They also have exceptions that allow abortion all the way, all the way –
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
The Florida law has exceptions, as well.
CHUCK TODD:
– all the way there.
CHUCK TODD:
I'm going to do more on abortion here in a few minutes. Byron Donalds, Republican congressman from Southwest Florida, thanks for coming in. Appreciate your time.
REP. BYRON DONALDS:
Anytime. Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
Speaking of abortion, Republicans in North Carolina took advantage of their new supermajority to push through an abortion ban of 12 weeks over Governor Roy Cooper's veto. The new law bans abortion after 12 weeks, requires patients to meet in person with a physician at least 72 hours before the procedure. It includes 20 week exceptions for rape and incest, and a 24 week exception for what they call, "life-limiting fetal abnormalities." So joining me now is the Democratic Governor of North Carolina, Roy Cooper. Governor Cooper, welcome back to Meet the Press.
GOV. ROY COOPER:
Glad to be with you, Chuck, as always.
CHUCK TODD:
So let me – let me throw this – we've described how this bill came to be. It is a less restrictive bill than some of North Carolina's surrounding states. So let me ask you about how The Washington Post described it. They called it this, "It is the first new abortion ban to pass since the fall of Roe v. Wade that does not outlaw all or most abortions, effectively allowing roughly 90% of abortions to continue." Are they correct in that assessment? Do you agree with The Washington Post's assessment of that?
GOV. ROY COOPER:
I don't think so, but I hope so. We're going to make sure that this bill gets implemented in a way that we provide the most access possible to women. This bill was contradictory, conflicting, confusing. They wrote it in the middle of the night. It's going to be open to interpretation. This is in no way a reasonable compromise as Republicans have presented it. It's a compromise between the right wing and the radical right wing. It is better than some of the surrounding states. But we know that Republicans are unified in their assault on women's reproductive freedom. Not a single one of them, not a single one of them stood up even when they had made promises to the people that they weren't going to change North Carolina's abortion law. That tells us where we are right now.
CHUCK TODD:
Well look, the bill also includes millions of dollars of funding to expand access to contraception for low income and uninsured patients. It increases payments for foster families and expands access to childcare, and it increases paid parental leave for state employees. Did you find those provisions that were included something you could support?
GOV. ROY COOPER:
Well first, I've already issued an executive order for paid parental leave for state employees, and they should be doing these kinds of things anyway. What they spent a lot of time doing is dressing up this bill so that they could attract their swing Republicans, because they knew they needed every single vote in order to be able to get this bill passed. Democrats were unified on a Roe v. Wade standard. So what they did is try to make this bill ugly. It's the old lipstick on a pig kind of thing. Yes, those investments are important and should be made anyway. But when you look at what this bill does, I don't think we can even comprehend yet the pressure that these clinics are going to be under by these additional restrictions. Women who are working hourly wages and already have children and have to make multiple trips in order to get reproductive care. North Carolina has been an access point in the Southeast. We already have long waiting lines. And when you compress the time that women have to make these decisions, I don't think it's reasonable to call this thing a 12 week ban because inside of that 12 weeks there's a lot going on that would be obstacles to women in being able to get care.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah, the 72-hour provision certainly is a hurdle at a minimum, and perhaps a full-on obstacle. I want to ask about the party switcher, Tricia Cotham, who was a Democratic state representative, switched parties allowing the supermajority to be there. A fellow state rep., Democratic State Rep. Cecil Brockman, said the following and I'm curious of your response, "I didn't see it coming," referring to the party switch, "but I do get how she feels resentful from the constant character attacks that she has received, and a couple of us have received. It is a lot of eating your own. The biggest issue with Democrats in the state of North Carolina is that we'd rather be right than win elections." The implication that the progressive left so attacked Tricia Cotham that she felt unwelcome in the party, is that a fair critique?
GOV. ROY COOPER:
You can't make major policy changes because you get your feelings hurt. Here in North Carolina, we are on a razor's edge. Major policy changes can happen because of one legislator making a decision. Because of our gerrymandered districts, we are so close to a supermajority. The last four years we've had enough Democrats to be able to stop all of the bad legislation. All of my vetoes have been upheld. But when you're talking about investments in education for our children, when you're talking about expanding Medicaid, which we were able to get done by the way, when you're talking about bills that discriminate, bills that attack voting rights, bills that affect our democracy, those one votes matter. And yes, it's a lot of pressure to make sure that we don't have these radical policy changes in a state that has kept our purple nature. One of the reasons we're the number one state in the country for business is because businesses say we are stable, we have a good business environment, but we also have stayed out of the culture wars. And if you run for elective office, you have to be tough. You have to be ready to jump into these issues and understand that there are going to be differences of agreement – differences of opinion, and that people can be pretty rough in that kind of situation.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah, politics sure ain't beanbag. We do know this; I think abortion and the issue of abortion will be the number one issue in North Carolina come 2024 we will see what it does to the state's politics. Governor Cooper, Democrat from North Carolina, thanks for coming on and sharing your perspective.
GOV. ROY COOPER:
Thank you, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, when will the federal government run out of money? Can a deal still be reached to avoid a catastrophic default? You're going to hear from the Secretary of Treasury, Janet Yellen, next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. As the Treasury Department warns that the U.S. could breach the debt ceiling as soon as June 1st, this week negotiations were on, and then they were off. Then they were on again as the bases of both political parties balked at some of the compromises that were being made public that were supposedly on the table. A Republican aide told NBC News that House conservatives are, quote, "privately seething" at how the talks have been going, saying Republicans are giving away their leverage. Well, then you had 11 progressive Democrats in the Senate and 66 in the House are arguing that President Biden should invoke the 14th Amendment and pull out of talks completely, saying the Constitution requires the government to pay its debts. So with the bases of both parties unhappy, in theory, we're in the sweet spot for a deal to get done. Or, will the bases derail this deal? Joining me now is Secretary of Treasury Janet Yellen. Secretary Yellen, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SECRETARY JANET YELLEN:
Thanks so much, Chuck. It's a pleasure to be with you.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. I want to start with today's May 20th. Twelve days is June 1st. How hard is 12 days? President Biden seemed to hint earlier this morning that he thought we're two to three weeks away. And, you know, 12 days, two weeks, we could argue there, but how hard is this June 1st deadline?
SECRETARY JANET YELLEN:
Well, I indicated in my last letter to Congress that we expect to be unable to pay all of our bills in early June, and possibly as soon as June 1st. And I will continue to update Congress, but I certainly haven't changed my assessment. So I think that that's a hard deadline.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to point out something, that a lot of House conservatives just simply don't believe what Treasury is doing. I'm going to read you one quote here. Some conservative Republicans have said for months that they felt, "Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen had exaggerated the risk of the default in June, in a bid to put pressure on the House Republican majority. 'She's going to play it out now, saying it's a crisis, the day is here,' said Rep. Ralph Norman, a member of the Freedom Caucus." What do you think you could do to convince Congressman Norman that this early June deadline is real?
SECRETARY JANET YELLEN:
Well, Treasury has a long history of informing Congress about how much cash and headroom we have under the debt ceiling. And we take pride in the credibility of the forecasts that we make. I would point out that the Congressional Budget Office has recently indicated that they expect that early June will be a problem. And forecasters on Wall Street, who look at information daily on our cash balances and resources, agree. So there will be hard choices to make if the debt ceiling isn't raised. And, you know, I would simply say: Since 1789, the United States has a history of paying its bills on time. That's what the world wants to see, a continued commitment to do that. It's what underlies U.S. Treasury securities as the safest investment on the planet. And it's not an acceptable situation for us to be unable to pay our bills.
CHUCK TODD:
I just want to sort of understand the go or no-go to June 15th in this way. It's clear that June 1st is not hard, but it's the beginning of that period. What is the likelihood we can get to the June 15th tax receipts to avoid breaching the debt ceiling? Can you put a percentage on it? Is it 20%, 40%, something like that?
SECRETARY JANET YELLEN:
Well, there's always uncertainty about tax receipts and spending. And so it's hard to be absolutely certain about this, but my assessment is that the odds of reaching June 15th, while being able to pay all of our bills, is quite low.
CHUCK TODD:
Fair enough. Let me ask you about what are the sticking points here. It does appear as if – we heard President Biden bring up revenue, meaning taxes. Maybe it's closing loopholes, or maybe it's actually raising a percentage here or there. Is it a hard and fast line? Is the White House going to accept a deal on this to raise the debt ceiling that includes spending caps but does not include any increased revenues or taxes?
SECRETARY JANET YELLEN:
Well, look, you know, the White House is negotiating in good faith with the Republicans to try to find a bipartisan solution. I don't want to negotiate in public and put down any red lines, but certainly, the president has pointed out, and it's important for the American people to understand, we're all concerned about deficits and fiscal responsibility, but deficits can be addressed both through changes in spending and also through changes in revenue, and the Republicans have taken that off the table. Something that greatly concerns me is that they have even been in favor of removing funding that's been provided to the Internal Revenue Service to crack down on tax fraud. We have an enormous gap between the taxes we're collecting and what we should be collecting, if everyone paid the taxes that they really owe. And that's really a reflection of tax fraud. It amounts to an estimated $7 trillion over the next decade. So equipping the IRS with the funding they need to audit high income individuals and corporations, that's something that doesn't cost money. It nets money substantially for the federal government. And, you know, of course, there are revenue proposals that we think make the tax code fairer.
CHUCK TODD:
Let's end with a phrase that I talked to you about at the beginning, and that is this idea of extraordinary measures. Is the 14th Amendment fall into the category of extraordinary measures?
SECRETARY JANET YELLEN:
Well, "extraordinary measures" is used in a different way, but there has been —
CHUCK TODD:
I understand.
SECRETARY JANET YELLEN:
— much discussion of the 14th Amendment. And, as President Biden said, I believe, this morning, it doesn't seem like something that could be appropriately used in these circumstances, given the legal uncertainty around it, and given the tight timeframe we're on. So my devout hope is that Congress will raise the debt ceiling —
CHUCK TODD:
But are you just going to —
SECRETARY JANET YELLEN:
— and we'll pay all of our bills.
CHUCK TODD:
If it doesn't happen, okay, and we're at this point, are you just going to sit there and pick and choose, or why not go and pay, and then, you know, it's one of those are you going to pay all of our debts and essentially let the Courts tell us you shouldn't have? I mean, if we breach this debt ceiling – I understand not wanting to use it now – but are we really going to sit there and just let some bills go unpaid, not even trying it?
SECRETARY JANET YELLEN:
Well, we take the debt ceiling seriously as a constraint on our ability to pay bills that are coming due. And my assumption is that if the debt ceiling isn't raised, there will be hard choices to make about what bills go unpaid. And, you know, defaulting on any of our payments —
CHUCK TODD:
What you're saying is if the debt ceiling is not raised, that there's going to be a default on President Biden's watch, even though he doesn't want it, that you're not going to try any other measures? You'll allow a default on some debt if Congress doesn't raise this debt ceiling?
SECRETARY JANET YELLEN:
Well, there will be some bill. We have to pay interest in principle on outstanding debt. We also have obligations to seniors who count on Social Security, our military that expects pay, contractors who've provided services to the federal government, and some bills have to go unpaid.
CHUCK TODD:
So there will be some bills unpaid if the debt ceiling is not raised?
SECRETARY JANET YELLEN:
Yes. And many people, including in the credit rating agencies —
CHUCK TODD:
Have you decided which bills those are going to be yet?
SECRETARY JANET YELLEN:
Look, I would say we're focused on raising the debt ceiling. And there will be hard choices if that doesn't occur. There can be no acceptable outcomes if the debt ceiling isn't raised, regardless of what decisions we make.
CHUCK TODD:
Secretary Yellen, Treasury Secretary for President Biden, appreciate you coming on and sharing the administration's perspective. Thank you.
SECRETARY JANET YELLEN:
Thanks.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, Ron DeSantis is about to make it official. But there's a whole wave of other contenders who are suddenly betting he's already missed his moment. Is there room for more alternatives to Donald Trump? Panel is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Panel is here: NBC News Washington Managing Editor Carol Lee, Dan Balz, the chief correspondent at The Washington Post; former Republican Congressman Carlos Curbelo of Florida and Symone Sanders-Townsend. She's host of Symone and the former chief spokesperson of Vice President Kamala Harris. Look, I want to mostly stick to the Republican primary but Carol, let's you and I quickly, on this debt ceiling. I feel like it's a lot of theater and that almost the lack of urgency on the specifics of the end game from Secretary Yellen, tell me the White House wants to land this plane almost in any way possible.
CAROL LEE:
They do. And they also want to be able to land it in a way where all sides declare victory. That's been the goal from —
CHUCK TODD:
Or don't all sides declare defeat?
CAROL LEE:
— well, all along. Well, you know —
CHUCK TODD:
I just think they all have to admit that they lost something here, right? Yeah.
CAROL LEE:
Yes. But the president wants to be able to say that he went in, he fought for priorities that matter to the Democratic party, that he didn't give away too much and look, they raised the debt limit. The noise that we're hearing is, as those of us who covered this, these fights in the past, know, is part of the process. And so the president's speaking with the speaker. He's likely to meet with the speaker and others this week. And they expect to have some sort of deal by the end of the week.
CHUCK TODD:
Our advice: Pay no attention to the posturing for social media and cable news consumption. Let me set up the presidential race. We had a little bit of back and forth already between DeSantis and a Trump supporter, sort of. Let me give you this back and forth this week from DeSantis and the new nominee for governor of Kentucky.
[START TAPE]
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
We were supposed to have this big, red wave, and other than, like, Florida and Iowa, I didn't see a red wave across this country. And so I think the party has developed a culture of losing.
GOV.-ELECT DANIEL CAMERON:
A big thank you to President Donald J. Trump for his support and his endorsement of this campaign. Let me just say, let me just say the Trump culture of winning is alive and well in Kentucky.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
So Dan Balz, Ron DeSantis finally going to come in this week. I can't help but wonder, imagine, had he flipped his switch on the exploratory committee in January of this year, where he would be. Would Tim Scott be even announcing this week?
DAN BALZ:
Well, Chuck, I mean, I think the question is, was he ready in January and is he ready today, to be a national candidate? And I think what we've seen is somebody who's been, you know, far from sure-footed in his first steps in trying to run a presidential campaign. But he also caught himself in a situation which he wasn't quite in, but he was trying to get in. And so I think what we have seen is, in some ways, what may be the worst of Ron DeSantis during this period. And I think the question going forward is, "Will we see a different and more effective Ron DeSantis?" I mean, you know, Chuck, from campaigns past, candidates, even ones who start out with a lot of hype, have trouble. Barack Obama in 2007 had trouble in the early spring. And a lot of people were saying, "What's the matter with this guy? I thought he was a really good candidate." We've seen it in a variety of other campaigns. So, I think that the real challenge for Ron DeSantis is to now step up and show that he's a national candidate with a national message, and with a kind of confidence about how to deal with and go after Donald Trump.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Carlos Curbelo, I had somebody who's wanting DeSantis to get there, sort of wonder here, jeez, a lot's been lost over these last four months. And does see that, you know, maybe Tim Scott and Nikki Haley don't have big donors coming to them. Maybe Chris Christie doesn't have Scaramucci and Steve Cohen saying, "Yeah, we'll fund your campaign." You know, all of this is because, not of Donald Trump, but it's actually because Ron DeSantis has looked weak here.
CARLOS CURBELO:
So, look, two different kinds of candidates getting into the race this week. Tim Scott, who's going to try to get around Donald Trump, and Ron DeSantis, who doesn't have a choice but to try to go through Donald Trump in order to get that nomination. I think, you know, if the brawl between DeSantis and Trump gets nasty enough, candidates like Scott could become interesting, could become attractive. And I also think it's a little early to write off Ron DeSantis. I mean, if any of us were starting a presidential campaign today and we had all that money, all the resources he has –
CHUCK TODD:
And already in double digits –
CARLOS CURBELO:
And —
CHUCK TODD:
— by the way.
CARLOS CURBELO:
— in second place, we would probably be happy. On top of that, DeSantis has a strong record to run on for a Republican primary in a general. You know, the social issues might be a challenge, but he has a strong economic record to run on. So look, been a tough last few months. But it's a bit early to say this guy can't make it.
CHUCK TODD:
Symone, what have you learned here? You were involved in a massive, what some people thought was going to become, a demolition derby on the Democratic side in 2019. All of a sudden, I think we thought we were going to have a smaller field, the field is growing. By the way, is Tim Scott the Pete Buttigieg of this crowd, meaning that he may pop here if people don't, if people aren’t careful?
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
Is he the Pete Buttigieg, or is he the Cory Booker, the person that everyone liked, but just could not catch fire with the voters? And I say that, and I like Cory Booker personally, but we saw what happened in the 2020 election. If there were less candidates then, if maybe if there were other people not in the race, could someone like Cory Booker, could have caught fire? I think it's a question that Tim Scott himself has asked him a couple of times, his team. Obviously, this is something they've had to weigh. And they've weighed that it's better to get in than stay out. Look, I think I'm with you. I think it's early, but it's also late. And, you know, we had this conversation —
CHUCK TODD:
Yogi Berra. Exactly.
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
— earlier this week, you know? It's late early because it's early, first debates, Republican primary debate is not until the end of August. But it's late because Republican primary voters start voting on January 8th. That's the Iowa caucuses. So how do you build the infrastructure? How do you become a national candidate that can connect with voters from state to state?
CHUCK TODD:
Well, the other issue, of course, is the abortion issue. I want to put up this graphic, Carol, that we put together. Since Dobbs, it is a consistent issue here for Republicans across the board. So in 2022, you had the Kansas abortion referendum. You had a special congressional election in New York. And you, of course, you had the midterms themselves, where it was clear abortion was a huge issue. And then look what we just learned over the last couple of months. You had the Supreme Court race in Wisconsin, that abortion rights clearly helped the left there.
And you have new mayors on the Democratic side in Jacksonville and an Independent; Republicans knocked out in Colorado Springs, all of them over being perceived as too out of the mainstream on social issues. Will this Republican primary even matter in the presidential because of those numbers?
CAROL LEE:
Well, I can tell you that the Biden team is certainly looking at this and thinking that this is an opportunity for them to expand the map in North Carolina, as well as Florida. A Biden official has told me that they think the six-week ban that Governor DeSantis signed is very significant. That they —
CHUCK TODD:
That's why they want to go to Florida, you think?
CAROL LEE:
And they are already, they're "testing the waters there." They're on the air. They see an opportunity here. And it all comes down to abortion.
CHUCK TODD:
And Dan, you pointed out in your terrific piece today two key groups in 2022 showed up for Democrats that they didn't expect — women without a college degree, and voters under the age of 35.
DAN BALZ:
Yeah. And I think that the women without college degrees are a prime target. But I think it was the abortion issue that drew them. And I don't know whether that'll be the case in 2024. They could easily slip back to the Republicans.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. We have more time, I promise. Up next, the Covid public health emergency has been declared over. So after living with three years of this virus, what was the real impact? Data Download's next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Data Download time. Earlier this month, the national emergency that surrounded the Covid-19 pandemic was officially declared over. So we wanted to take a look at just how much this three-year pandemic impacted the country as a whole. And let's start with the greatest statistic of all, the loss of life. Overall, more than a million Americans died of Covid-19 since it first appeared here in early 2020. That is more people than the populations of Austin, Texas or Jacksonville, Florida, and it's more people than live in the entire state of Montana. But the good news is, the current death number are among the lowest they've ever been. Look at this, just 281 reported last week nationwide. At its peak in early January of 2021, nearly 26,000 Americans lost their life in just a week. Just a week. Now, speaking of that – of those vaccines, according to the CDC, over 81% of Americans received at least one dose of a COVID vaccine. That number dropped off a little bit on second doses, as you could see here, nearly 70%. Well, let me tell you this. The boosters? They're not getting – they’re not getting bought – used by many folks very often. Mostly this is folks over the age of 65. It's an indication of just how comfortable we are now living beyond this virus. But, of course, the economic impact was huge with this pandemic. Did you know we threw over $4 trillion in money from the government to try to offset what was just a huge disruption in the American economy? And even though we threw all that money at the economy, it still impacted our overall national economic trends here. Fourteen trillion dollars in lost economic activity from 2020 through the end of last year, according to researchers from the University of Southern California. Before we go to break, this week special counsel John Durham released his long-awaited report on the Russia investigation. Well, back in 2001, Bill Clinton investigator Robert Ray joined Meet the Press days after striking a deal with the president to avoid an indictment, and he talked about the lessons he learned as an independent counsel.
[START TAPE]
ROBERT RAY:
The most important thing I learned is that achieving a – a just result for a prosecutor's not so easy. I – one can think exclusively within the box of being a federal prosecutor, but the position of independent counsel brings I think a larger responsibility not only to the, to the interests of justice, but also to the country's best interests. And achieving a result that's satisfactory to all of those concerns is not, is not an easy one. It is important for the country's confidence to know that law enforcement with regard to the integrity of public officials can work.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
We look forward to hearing from John Durham. We've invited him to be on this show. When we come back, we're going to look at the impact of the Durham report on the FBI, and what role it may play for an institution that's increasingly under partisan attack.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. If you only consume media on the right, you might be excused for thinking this week's 306-page Durham report on the Russian inquiry was a “bombshell” and “damning” and that the investigation was an “abomination” and a “soft coup.” But special counsel John Durham's actual sharpest conclusions after a four-year investigation were that the FBI suffered from confirmation bias and, quote, "discounted or willfully ignored material information” that countered the narrative of collusion between Donald Trump and Russia.The report recommended no “wholesale changes” to FBI rules for regulations or wiretaps, and Durham did not send a single person to jail, even though former President Trump once predicted that Durham would uncover the crime of the century. That said, Dan Balz, this is not an FBI that should feel good about what Durham discovered because at a minimum, this issue of confirmation bias, it goes to the heart of how James Comey seemed to worry so much about what the perception of the FBI was that he – whether it was overdid or underdid Hillary stuff and then overdid or underdid Trump stuff.
DAN BALZ:
Well, since, since Comey, the FBI has been under attack. And the Durham report in many ways confirms what the DOJ IG –
CHUCK TODD:
It's almost identical, really –
DAN BALZ:
It's almost identical.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
DAN BALZ:
And in some ways backed off some of the rhetoric that they had going into it. But the FBI's been in a compromised position. And part of that has to do with the nature of our politics today. The FBI has become a politicized institution and a political target, and this is going to make it much more difficult for Merrick Garland as he goes forward with these investigations, and I don't see any way out of that in the – anywhere in the near future.
CHUCK TODD:
No. And let me throw in this headline from your newspaper, Dan. "FBI misused surveillance tool on January 6th suspects, BLM” —- Black Lives Matter – “arrestees and others." Symone, look, trust in the FBI is eroding left and right. Feels like we're in a moment that we need a real Church Committee, that this is a moment like J. – when the J. Edgar Hoover FBI clearly was no longer helping the American people, there was a moment. This feels like we might be in one of those moments.
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
I would say yes and no, okay? Yes, because obviously, we – I mean, as Dan was talking, I thought about the activists – the civil rights activists, Black Lives Matter activists, Black Panthers –
CHUCK TODD:
Who have also been –
SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND:
– who have been targets of the FBI for eons and years, okay, going back to well before this current political climate that we sit in. But FBI agents, law enforcement across the country, people who work for the government, they are in a precarious position because of this belief in the quote unquote "deep state" that does not – I would argue it doesn't exist. But depending on what you read about this report, you could be persuaded to believe that it does. FBI agents' offices have been targeted, right? Their lives have been put in danger. And so would a Church Committee do anything but play to – right into the hands of those in the far wing spaces and places of America?
CHUCK TODD:
I hear you, but we got to – it seems like we have to do something to restore trust. We have to – and it has to be moderate trust.
CARLOS CURBELO:
And the reason, Chuck, is that the FBI – you know, the opponents of the FBI, the conspiracy theorists, the people who want to diminish our institutions, they just need, you know, 10% of the truth, 15% of the truth –
CHUCK TODD:
If that.
CARLOS CURBELO:
– to make a living and to bring down the institution. So the FBI has to raise its standards because they can't even give these people an inch. With an inch, they can bring down these institutions.
CHUCK TODD:
And I'll be honest. Christopher Wray hides.
CAROL LEE:
Well –
CHUCK TODD:
He hides. He does – he only goes before Congress, and he doesn't defend the institution publicly.
CAROL LEE:
There is a lot of consternation within the FBI about that, about the way he postures publicly. There’s a couple places where this is really going to come to a head this year, and that is the two special counsel investigations, the Hunter Biden investigation and the reauthorization of Section 702 —
CHUCK TODD:
With those FISA warrants, yeah.
CAROL LEE:
— of the FISA warrant. And that is something that's going to be a huge fight. The White House has been worried about it already for months. It's going to get worse. And all of this is going to be on display at that time, at the – by the end of the year.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. I have to end it there. Before we go, it has been 54 years since we first landed astronauts on the Moon, and now the U.S. is in another space race: back to the Moon and then to Mars. Watch our latest episode of Meet the Press Reports: The Race to Mars. It's on Peacock, YouTube, or after this broadcast, on NBC News NOW. That's all we have for today. Thanks for watching. We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.