CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday: The CDC under fire.
PARENT:
We had all winter break to have this planned out and here we are.
CHUCK TODD:
With cases spiking, hospitals overwhelmed --
HILLARY KRIEGER:
It's just been a lot of uncertainty and I, um, I'm tired.
CHUCK TODD:-- air travel disrupted, widespread labor shortages including teachers staying home --
CHICAGO TEACHER:
I would just appreciate being able to work in an environment where at least the students are all PCR tested weekly.
CHUCK TODD:
-- criticism is growing over the government's Covid response.
DR. EZEKIEL EMANUEL:
We have to reorient our goal so that we get it to a manageable state, and we can continue with our normal life while Covid's around.
CHUCK TODD:
My guests this morning, doctors Ezekiel Emanuel and Celine Gounder, former members of President Biden's Covid advisory board and Mayor Lori Lightfoot of Chicago, where schools are closed in a dispute with teachers over Covid. Plus, President Biden hits back on January 6th.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
The former president of the United States of America has created and spread a web of lies about the 2020 election.
CHUCK TODD:
But amid worries about the future of American democracy --
SEN. AMY KLOBUCHAR:
When you've got 9,600 threats against members of congress. That's not a small thing. That is January 6th continued.
CHUCK TODD:
-- Republicans overwhelmingly pledge their loyalty to Mr. Trump.
MARK FINCHEM:
By removing the fraud, Donald Trump won.
CHUCK TODD:
I'll be joined by Congressman Adam Kinzinger, the rare Republican willing to criticize the former president, and of course a member of the January 6th Committee. Joining me for insight and analysis are: NBC News Chief White House Correspondent Peter Alexander, Anna Palmer, founder of Punchbowl News, Democratic pollster Cornell Belcher and former White House Political Director under President George W. Bush, Sara Fagen. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning. As we've said before, as Covid goes, so goes Joe Biden's presidency, and right now Covid is a major health and political problem. A combination of new variants like Delta and Omicron, and stubborn vaccine refusal among millions, has led to an all-time high in cases. The seven-day average of confirmed cases has blown past previous records, and that doesn't even begin to account for people who don't report results of at-home tests or who are asymptomatic. Hospitalizations are spiking as well, but the death rate so far has ticked up much more slowly, owing in part to what appears to be a less severe illness that is caused by Omicron. The public is in a different place though than it was a year ago, and the Biden administration is desperately trying to catch up. The CDC has offered confusing and at some times contradictory advice. The Supreme Court seems skeptical about the best tool in
Biden’s tool box -- the vaccine mandates. And stay-at home guidelines and school closures have given us a feeling of a recurring nightmare. All of it adds up to a big political problem for the president, who pledged to restore confidence in the government's ability to competently handle this crisis.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
The new normal is not going to be what it is now. It's going to be better.
CHUCK TODD:
President Biden -- elected promising to shut down the virus --
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
The first step I will take will be to get control of the virus.
CHUCK TODD:
-- now faces an unprecedented surge.
DR. JEFFREY MUSON:
The largest influx of patients that we've ever taken care of.
CHUCK TODD:
Nearly one in four hospitals report a critical staffing shortage. At the Luminis Health Doctors Community Medical Center in Maryland, Covid cases are up 925% since Thanksgiving. Seventy percent of the patients are unvaccinated.
ANGIE WHEELER:
It is very tough. A lot of times you just have to take a break. You cry and you come back, and you do it all over again.
CHUCK TODD:
As Omicron spreads, it's already crippling schools, including in Chicago -- where schools were canceled this week over an ongoing conflict with the teachers union.
KEYONNA PAYTON:
I want my students to learn, I want my children to learn, but I also want to stay safe.
MAYOR LORI LIGHTFOOT:
We will not pay you to abandon your post and your children at a time when they and their families need us most.
CHUCK TODD:
Nationwide, flights have been canceled.
REPORTER:
How are you feeling?
TRAVELER:
Angry because I was supposed to be home yesterday.
CHUCK TODD:
Mass transit disrupted. In Los Angeles, so many ambulance crews are out sick, some Covid patients have been brought to the hospital by fire truck.
ANDY SLAVITT:
We’re in the middle of a tsunami, and in that tsunami, there’s a lot of things that are going to get wet that wouldn’t in a normal wave.
CHUCK TODD:
President Biden is promising 500 million free at-home rapid test kits, but he has promised to fix testing for a year.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
We’re also expanding testing. We continue to work on making at-home testing available. We're committing $2 billion to purchase nearly 300 million rapid tests. Believe me, it’s frustrating to me, but we’re making improvements.
CHUCK TODD:
And though Mr. Biden promised to restore confidence in the CDC after the Trump White House manipulated public health guidance for political ends, the CDC is under fire for messaging confusion.
DR. EBONY HILTON:
I am very concerned about the CDC toeing the line of whether or not we're basing our guidelines on science.
CHUCK TODD:
On masking --
DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY:
Once you are fully vaccinated, two weeks after your last dose, you can shed your mask.
CHUCK TODD:
-- the window for boosters --
DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY:
Up to six, eight, we don’t -- perhaps longer. Six months. Five months.
CHUCK TODD:
-- and most recently, a change to recommendations that people infected with the virus isolate for five days instead of 10, without a testing requirement.
DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY:
That antigen test was actually not authorized for this purpose, and it's not, its information will not be useful.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI:
People are getting concerned about, why not test people at that time? I myself feel that that's a reasonable thing to do.
CHUCK TODD:
Now, half a dozen former members of President Biden's Covid-19 transition advisory board are calling for a new approach --
DR. CELINE GOUNDER:
It does feel like a bit of a choose your own adventure.
CHUCK TODD:
And they argue the country needs a national strategy for a "new normal" and for Covid testing, surveillance, vaccines and therapeutics.
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is Mayor Lori Lightfoot of Chicago. Chicago's public schools canceled classes this past week because of the dispute between the city and the teachers union over Covid safety measures. Mayor Lightfoot, welcome to Meet the Press.
MAYOR LORI LIGHTFOOT:
It's my pleasure to be here.
CHUCK TODD:
So in some ways, what's happening in Chicago is an outsized version of what's happening in a lot of cities and a lot of communities. So, let me start with this: are kids going to be in school this week in Chicago?
MAYOR LORI LIGHTFOOT:
Oh, I'm doing everything I can to make sure that that happens. And to be clear, what the Chicago Teachers Union did was an illegal walk-out. They abandoned their posts and they abandoned kids and their families. We are working diligently every single day at the bargaining table to narrow the differences and to get a deal done. My team has been working every single day. They're back at it again here Sunday. They were at it yesterday. And we can get a deal done if there's good will on both sides. But fundamentally what we cannot do is abandon the science. We know that the safest place for kids to be is in-person learning in schools. And we've spent hundreds of millions of dollars to make our schools safe. They are safe. We've got the data to demonstrate that. We've got to get the teachers union to get real and get serious about getting back into in-person learning.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, I know you're making these demands. What leverage do you have? How can you force this to happen? Are you -- are you a little bit at the whim of the teachers union?
MAYOR LORI LIGHTFOOT:
Well, the leverage, I think, we have is that we've got the will of the -- of the people. Parents are outraged. And they are making their outrage known to the teachers union. This is a very different dynamic than ever before. We've got an enormous amount of parent activism. They are writing letters, emails. They are protesting. They're holding press conferences. This is an unprecedented level of parent activism all in support of returning to in-person learning. And we know why. We live in a district where 70% or more of our kids qualify for free or reduced lunch, which means they live in households that are poor and working class. Which also means that they live in houses with single parents, mostly women of color, who have to work to be able to keep the home together. So this walk-out by the teachers union, which is illegal, has had cascading negative ripple effects not only on the students and their learning, their social, emotional welfare, but also on the families themselves. It is making them have tenuous financial status because they have to work, but they also have to take care of their kids. This is an untenable situation and completely, utterly avoidable. So I'm going to be on the side of the parents fighting every single day to get our kids back in school.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, so what do you do this week though? The teachers union -- you, you -- they've sent you a proposal. Some of the things that that C -- the public school system has said no to include, for instance, a metric for when in home -- when remote learning would be triggered. And do you think it should be -- would you accept a school-by-school metric versus a district one? What do you think is a fair compromise here?
MAYOR LORI LIGHTFOOT:
Well, we already sent them a school-based metric on Tuesday before they walked out, which they rejected without any response, just saying it's not good enough. So last night, my my team turned around a point by point response that deals with school metrics, which deals with testing and a number of the other things that, frankly, we don't have disagreement on. The biggest issue is remote testing, remote learning, which we categorically reject. We have set up, and I think responded, to many of their issues regarding testing. So I think we can get agreement there. We have put together a revised proposal for a school-by-school metric, which really mirrors what we've been doing, Chuck, all along this year. We haven't sat idly by and let Covid rage through our schools. When there's been a necessity to shut down a classroom or shut down a school to go to remote learning, we've done that. And what I think is really important is, of the, of the cases that we can tie to schools, it's 53 outbreaks. And an outbreak is defined as two or more. Our average is 2.5 kids in the school setting, where we believe that they may be related to schools. So we're doing what we need to do. We're following the science. And what I won't do is allow the teachers union to politicize this surge or the pandemic in general. People are nervous. They are scared. We get that. But the thing to do is to lean into the facts and the science and not abandon them in a panic.
CHUCK TODD:
There do seem to be reports that you are short of tests, or the school system's short of tests. The governor apparently made a request to the White House. I know the way the funding mechanism works, that that you'd have to find the extra money. Is that going to happen? Are you working with the governor for more testing? Are you willing to sort of flood the zone even more with certain tests that may not be the same tests that the system is using now?
MAYOR LORI LIGHTFOOT:
Yeah. We've, we’ve been doing that all along. And I'm happy to report our public health director found additional tests this week, which we notified the union about, and we're immediately putting into action. The governor yesterday announced that he would sell us 350,000 additional tests. But what we need is the support of our school nurses, who the union has not allowed to be activated to help on the frontlines with this fight. So if they're agreeing to support the school testing regime that we are willing to set up, we can get this done. But again, we need their cooperation and support, and not have them be on the sidelines being critical, throwing bombs. We need them in this fight with us.
CHUCK TODD:
Where do you find the extra staff though that's needed right now? Look, let's say you didn't have this dispute. You'd still have staff shortages. We're seeing it in schools all over the country. Is there a good plan to fill that gap or, as a nation, do you think we should be pausing for a week or two?
MAYOR LORI LIGHTFOOT:
No, I don't think we should be pausing. Again, we've got to follow the science, and the science tells us that the schools are safe and our kids learn best and are safest in-person. What we're doing regarding staffing is providing even more incentives for substitute teachers. We're doing everything that we can to continue getting our staff healthy. And look, the reality is the teachers and the staff, we've got 92% of them that are vaccinated. So we've got a very highly vaccinated workforce. That again isn't the issue. We can't play into fears. We've got to deal with the science and the data and the reality. And yes, there's a lot of concern. There's a lot of concern about the spread. But if we work together collaboratively, we can address this issue.
CHUCK TODD:
Any chance -- any chance --
MAYOR LORI LIGHTFOOT:
No question.
CHUCK TODD:
I've got to let you go, but any chance school opens tomorrow? Unlikely?
MAYOR LORI LIGHTFOOT:
Well, we're working like, like the dickens to make sure that we get a deal done today. So I remain hopeful.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. Mayor Lori Lightfoot of Chicago, Illinois. Madam Mayor, thank you for coming on Meet the Press.
MAYOR LORI LIGHTFOOT:
Thank you, sir.
CHUCK TODD:
This week, six members of President Biden's Covid-19 transition advisory board published opinion articles calling for the administration to take a new approach in fighting Covid. Two of them are joining me now. Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel is the vice provost of global initiatives at the University of Pennsylvania. By the way, he's the author of the book Which Country Has The World's Best Health Care? And Dr. Céline Gounder is an infectious disease specialist and epidemiologist at the NYU Grossman School of Medicine and Bellevue Hospital in New York. Welcome to both of you. Zeke, I want to put up, basically, almost a bit of the thesis that you had here in these articles. You write this: "Without a strategic plan for the new normal with endemic Covid-19, more people in the US will unnecessarily experience morbidity and mortality, health inequities will widen, and trillions will be lost from the US economy. This time, the nation must learn and prepare effectively for the future." You guys are saying what others have been saying: This is not a pandemic anymore, it's an endemic. So what changes have to happen now? Zeke, you first.
DR. EZEKIEL EMANUEL:
Well, first, Chuck, I would say we're not yet in the endemic stage. We're still in the pandemic stage. If you've got 1,500 people a day dying from this disease, it's still a pandemic. And Omicron is spreading. We think that over the course of 2022, we will get to an endemic stage. And the plan is – the proposal is we need a strategic plan for that, that covers vaccines, getting more people vaccinated. And the only way to do that, as we've been very clear over time, is mandates. We got voluntarily to about 60%. But to get beyond that, we are going to need the employer mandate that OSHA's put out, the healthcare mandate that CMS has put out. We need to improve our ventilation system. We need to get more therapies and get the link between a positive test and getting a therapy much closer so you can actually start in three days, and not only the rich and well off get it. Those are the kinds of things we need to put in place over the next three months to be prepared when Covid is really just in the air like RSV, another respiratory virus, like influenza, like adenovirus, all the respiratory viruses. It's going to be here. We're going to learn to live with it.
CHUCK TODD:
Dr. Gounder, are we prepared – should we be prepared that this is going to be a seasonal thing? Meaning – and frankly, we probably will have a yearly variant? Is that how our public health community has to face this?
DR. CELINE GOUNDER:
Chuck, that may well be in our future. And how often we will need to vaccinate people, we are still not yet certain. I think this also really depends on what are the goals of our public health programs? Are we trying to prevent all infections and transmission? And to be clear, that's going to be exceedingly difficult even with everybody vaccinated because of the nature of this virus. This is a virus that has a very short incubation period. So unless you keep reboosting everybody every four to six months, you're not going to be able to prevent all infections. And so what we're really proposing is, let's focus on what matters the most: hospitalizations and deaths. That's what we focus on for other respiratory illnesses like the flu, like RSV. How do we do a better job of preventing those hospitalizations, those deaths, particularly among the most vulnerable? So the elderly, people who are highly immunocompromised, people who are living in long term care facilities and, of course, communities of color and others that have been highly vulnerable during this pandemic.
CHUCK TODD:
Zeke, you brought up the issue of mandates and how important it would be. I'm sure you have seen all the reports. At best, maybe the healthcare mandate makes it through the Supreme Court. The workplace one may not. What does that mean if the vaccine mandate is the best tool in the toolbox and you can't use it as aggressively on the federal level? Does that mean testing becomes a bigger priority?
DR. EZEKIEL EMANUEL:
Look, the Supreme Court has to recognize that Covid in the workplace is a real health threat and really does affect many people. And unfortunately, many frontline workers have died from Covid and contracting Covid in the workplace. They need protection. And getting – mandating vaccination is a quite reasonable protection. I've called for six or eight months now for mandates among health care workers. These are our best tools to get to 90% vaccinated. Testing lets us know who's infectious, but it doesn't intervene in the virus, whereas vaccines do intervene. They make sure that people who get infected don't get hospitalized at such a high rate and are very, very, very unlikely to die. That's an important protection for people and we have to make sure that people get it. We will never get to 70, 80% or 90% of the American population vaccinated without a mandate. It's just that simple. And for the Supreme Court to take that away in the midst of an emergency seems to me to be very wrong. I signed onto an amicus brief because I think it's legal and I think it's absolutely vital for the health of the country.
CHUCK TODD:
Dr. Gounder, I want to talk about the CDC messaging issues and how much of this is on the CDC, or how much of this is on the White House. Look, we've seen just in the month of December I want to put up here. On December 20 we were told to “Stay at home until 10 days have passed since your positive viral test.” A week later, “people with Covid-19 should isolate for five days.” No mention of whether you should test negative before getting out of that. Then on Tuesday, “the best approach is to use an antigen test towards the end of a five-day isolation period,” says the CDC, although the CDC director two weeks ago sort of dismissed whether antigen tests are worthwhile there. How much of this is on the CDC, and how much of this is on Washington, if you will?
DR. CELINE GOUNDER:
Chuck, this is a great question. I think all of us could've done a much better job from the beginning of saying, "Look, the one and only thing you can count on is that the recommendations and guidelines are going to change over time. That is the one thing you can count on." But let's take this example of isolation policy. Yes, the CDC came out with rather confusing, in a sense overly-tailored advice, trying to please and fit its advice for every single possible setting: health care, schools, travel, the general public. So yes, the CDC could've done a better job. But there are many other parties that contributed to this issue. You have, first of all, the FDA. Under both the Trump and Biden administrations, has really dragged its feet on authorizing these rapid antigen tests for the purpose of assessing, are people contagious or not? Many of us have been advocating for that. They have yet to do that. We have real-world evidence that the rapid antigen tests are a good measure of contagiousness. But the FDA has not authorized them for that purpose. And just like with vaccines, the FDA has to authorize, then the CDC makes recommendations about their use. Then you have the manufacturers, the private sector. They have not been manufacturing enough rapid tests. And the White House and the administration certainly could've done more earlier to work with the private sector to create a more stable demand by putting in large volume orders. And then finally on the back end, you have the private sector, everyone from Walmart to healthcare systems, that are misinterpreting – willfully misinterpreting the CDC isolation guidance, saying, "Oh, well, now you have to go back to work at five days." That guidance is to indicate who is infectious, who's contagious, who's a threat to others, not when you're well enough to go back to work.
CHUCK TODD:
Very quickly, Zeke, are we ready for the next variant? We weren't ready for Omicron. Are we ready for the next one?
DR. EZEKIEL EMANUEL:
I think we have to prepare more and get better, you know, get more vaccines out there, more tests, but also better air quality. People have to wear better masks and be more scrupulous about it. But if it's like Omicron, where we're not that infectious, I think that we can learn to live with it. And that's the important point.
CHUCK TODD:
Well --
DR. EZEKIEL EMANUEL:
Learn to live with it.
CHUCK TODD:
Risk management. Seems like we all need a course in risk management there. Zeke Emanuel, Céline Gounder, thank you both for coming on. When we come back, changing subjects here a bit. I'm going to talk to Congressman Adam Kinzinger about what happened to the Republican Party he once knew and about what the House's January 6 committee has learned. Stick with us.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. A year ago, after the sacking of the U.S. Capitol, we asked this: Is this the end of something or the beginning? An aberration or a harbinger or where Trumpism was heading? We now know. The Grand Old Party is now Donald Trump's party. He lost the election, but insists it was stolen, still, has never conceded. And elected Republicans, most of them at least, pretend to believe, believe him because the voters already do, at least on that side of the aisle. On Thursday's January 6th anniversary, Republicans divided into three groups; the conspiracy spreaders; members who condemned the riot of the day, but not the man who inspired it; and the few who called it what it was, a violent attack on our democracy. Well, joining me now is Congressman Adam Kinzinger, of Illinois. He's one of the few Republicans who has publicly criticized former President Trump. He is also one of two Republicans on the House committee investigating January 6th. Congressman Kinzinger, welcome back to Meet The Press. Let me just start with this.
REP. ADAM KINZINGER:
You bet, good to be with you.
CHUCK TODD:
I'm a pretty cynical guy. I've been doing this a long time. On January 7, 2021, I think I – I'm guessing you were there, too, I really thought, okay, this is it. This is the breaking point. Lindsey Graham, enough is enough, count me out. It all felt like a moment. How did, a year later, we go to a Republican Party that is more in the grips of Donald Trump than what it was on January 7, 2021?
REP. ADAM KINZINGER:
You know, I think we could probably spend a half an hour on it. I'll give you kind of the most recent. So, there's a lot of stuff that led up, but the most recent is January 7th, I'll tell you, within my Republican caucus, there was a lot of silence, a lot of discussion, where do we go from here, this was wrong. And something happened two weeks later, which is Kevin McCarthy went to Mar-a-Lago. And it caught everybody off guard. They were shocked. But in that picture he had with Donald Trump, and I think Kevin had told us something like, "Oh, I just happened to be in Florida and he wanted to meet, so I was going to meet with him." No, that was an intentional meeting. That took like these, you know, the paddles that you see on the TV shows and resurrected Donald Trump back to life. And I think that one – I think when history looks back, it'll be Kevin's meeting with Donald Trump which actually made him as an immediate of a force as it was. He may have come back, but I think that was a very important meeting.
CHUCK TODD:
Did Donald Trump reveal what the Republican Party is or change it?
REP. ADAM KINZINGER:
You know, I think it's actually a little bit of both. So, I think, on the one hand, Donald Trump is a symptom of years and years of leaders, you know, profit-driven radio shows, whatever, turning the base into this angry, fearful, you know, victimized group of people. Or saying, look, you can never get a fair shot. You know, as time goes by, you're going to lose more and more political power. Keep in mind, Republicans still won just about half of every – races, but then Donald Trump came along and, I think unintentionally, because I think he just wanted to be, you know, that guy –
CHUCK TODD:
Right –
REP. ADAM KINZINGER:
– unintentionally got in front of the wave where people wanted somebody to blow stuff up. I think it's a little of both. I think it's fed off each other. The problem is leaders have to now interdict this fear and anger cycle and they're not doing it. They're instead hiding.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, you are one of the few Republicans that wants to fight within the Republican Party to change it. I want to play a video you put out earlier this week and ask you about it on the other side.
[BEGIN TAPE]
REP. ADAM KINZINGER:
On this anniversary of January 6th, let's confront the anger, fear, and hopelessness that brought that dark day about. Victory won't come in a day, a month, or even a year, but victory will come, I promise you that.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
You've started your Country First Organization, but I've got to ask, what are you running for? Because you've announced you're not running for re-election. You announced earlier this week you would not be a candidate for governor. And I think there are Republicans sort of who would like to see the Trumpist wing out of the party who want to see you run for something and combat this and push back. So, what are you running for?
REP. ADAM KINZINGER:
Well, look, I think that was part of the battle, is like, you know, do you stay in the House? Do you deal with, every day, the kind of stupid arguments we have that are the same and trying to get your 200 views on C-SPAN by arguing on the House floor? That's an important role. I've done it for 12 years after this. And I'm more passionate about the country. What is that role next in terms of running for anything? I don't know, but I know that this Country First movement, which by the way Country1st.com, has blown up. I know that is a force of people that are angry and I'm going to go with this. We're going to get involved in primaries. We're announcing a program at the end of January. And it's not even just about the Republican Party, though I think it's important. It's about just restoring our ability to talk to each other and calling out the abuse that is happening of our voters every time they get that email that says, "Send me 20 bucks, otherwise, you know, X-Y-Z, Pelosi's going to kill your family." That is abuse of our voters and they need to hear it.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, the biggest problem you have, though, is the information echo chamber, if you will. You have sort of misinformation peddlers that, you know, people say, "You in the media need to stand up and tell the truth." Well, there's a good portion of us that do, but 30% of the country doesn't watch it. You know, you've got an algorithm that Facebook has essentially mainlined this garbage into people's intellectual veins, if you will. How do you change that?
REP. ADAM KINZINGER:
You know, I wish I had the answer because that is, especially in the last year, something that I've been even increasingly more concerned about. I always believed there would be enough crossover that truth would kind of prevail. The last year has taught me that there are people that live in a totally different reality. All you can do, all I can do, is tell the truth and talk about the abuse because I think if people wake up to the fact that they are actually being financially and emotionally abused by leaders, maybe that'll be enough to awaken this giant, this change. But I'm going to tell you, if there's nothing to interdict this cycle in five or ten years, we're in trouble.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me move to the January 6th Committee. And I know you're always very hesitant to get in front of the chair and the vice chair. So, I'll get that caveat out of the way. If you got no more information submitted to this committee right now, how much of the story do you think you have?
REP. ADAM KINZINGER:
I think a significant part. I think where we're at right now, we know a lot of the narrative. And as I've said, I think the most important thing is not even the day of January 6th; it's what led to it. We have a lot of what's out there in the public venue, what the president, himself, said. The fact that he was watching for three hours on TV, probably gleefully, while this happened. So, I think if everything shut down today, we'd be able to put out a powerful and substantive narrative. We still have more information, obviously, we want to get.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, let me try to – give me one thing you don't have yet that you really think you need. You know, a witness or that you really – or you need to understand that would make this a stronger report.
REP. ADAM KINZINGER:
You know, I think the one thing that, if I could wave a magic wand and have more information on, it would certainly be what did the president know about January 6th leading up to January 6th. And I think what's important is, it’s the difference between was the president absolutely incompetent or a coward on the 6th when he didn't do anything or did he know what was coming? And I think that's the difference between incompetence with your oath and possibly criminal. That's where I want to get more information. We do have, obviously, some things leading up to that, but the more information we can get, obviously, the better.
CHUCK TODD:
Adam Kinzinger, Republican from Illinois. I think the last time I had you on, I made mention that you represented a part of where my family grew up. It's a wonderful part of the state. Thanks for coming on and sharing your perspective with us.
REP. ADAM KINZINGER:
It's cool. You bet.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. When we come back --
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I will stand in this breach. I will defend this nation. And I will allow no one to place a dagger at the throat of democracy.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
President Biden during Thursday's January 6th anniversary, taking rhetorical aim at former president Trump. When we come back, Mr. Trump's tightening grip on the GOP. The panel is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. The panel is with us remotely. Thank you, Omicron. Anna Palmer, founder of Punchbowl News; NBC News chief White House correspondent, Peter Alexander; Democratic pollster Cornell Belcher; and Republican strategist Sara Fagen, a former White House political director for former President Bush. I think the most fitting coda on January 6th was the Ted Cruz moment with Tucker Carlson. I've got two parts here of sort of Ted Cruz and his relationship with Donald Trump. Here's what he – how he described January 6th this week.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEN. TED CRUZ:
We are approaching a solemn anniversary this week. And it is an anniversary of a violent terrorist attack on the Capitol. The way I phrased things yesterday, it was sloppy, and it was, frankly dumb.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
This is not the first time we have seen Ted Cruz say something harsh and then walk back. Here is a highlight reel.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEN. TED CRUZ:
Donald, you're a sniveling coward and leave Heidi the hell alone. He is laughing at his supporters. He's mocking his supporters because he's lying to them. Do we get behind a campaign that is based on yelling and screaming and cursing and insults? Do you want to turn on the television and see a president, Republican or Democrat, who embarrasses you? This man is a pathological liar. A caricature of a braggadocious, arrogant buffoon. Morality does not exist for him. A narcissist at a level I don't think this country's ever seen. I am honored that President Trump is here, endorsing and supporting my campaign and I look forward to campaigning alongside him in 2020 for his re-election as President of the United States.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Sara, I'm certain you're very thankful that I'm coming to you first on this one.
SARA FAGEN:
Of course.
CHUCK TODD:
But is he emblematic of what every elected Republican has had to do in the age of Trump?
SARA FAGEN:
Yeah, it's very challenging because all of these candidates running for office have to constantly be looking over their shoulder for a primary. And so that is the calculus. It's actually on the left and the right, by the way. But speaking in terms of the Republican Party, I mean, that's what you saw play out there. What Ted Cruz said on the floor of the Senate is what he thought. And it's what was accurate. And Tucker Carlson challenged him, challenged his language and he backed down. And it was an easy political calculus. He could have swapped out the --
CHUCK TODD:
Is that healthy?
SARA FAGEN:
No. It's not. But it is where we are. And it's where both parties are. And so this is not a unique Republican challenge. But, you know, he could have easily used a different word than terrorist and it wouldn't have been an issue. And that's what he recognized.
CHUCK TODD:
Anna Palmer, how afraid are elected Republicans in Congress of their voters right now?
ANNA PALMER:
Yeah, I think what Ted Cruz did is emblematic of where a lot of the Republican Party is. They are very concerned about getting cross-eyed with former President Donald Trump because that's where the energy of the party is. That's where the people are going to win in 2022. It's really that base vote which is, you know, supremely behind Trump. And it's why they continue to kowtow to him and kind of shift their positioning to just kind of be in line with him because they do not want to have to go up against him in primaries or in the general election.
CHUCK TODD:
Peter Alexander, Donald Trump has been doing this for a year. And the president has sort of tried to stay above it. And then January 6th came. Let me play one more bite from that speech.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
The former president of the United States of America has created and spread a web of lies about the 2020 election. He's done so because he values power over principle.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Why did they wait?
PETER ALEXANDER:
Well, the White House says that it was selective on purpose on this issue and conversations with officials over the course of the last several days. They insist that the president wasn't elected to go after Donald Trump, but Americans want to see him get things done here. But, you know, Chuck, what struck me watching the president speak this week on the January 6th anniversary that in a lot of ways, that was the real state of the union speech. That's what our state of the union is right now. Whatever he says on March 1st can focus on the agenda, on Build Back Better. But that's the status right now. And there is this burning frustration as it was described to me by some aides that they are witnessing this growing number of Americans, – 40% I think it is – of Republicans, who say that it's okay to use violence against the government right now. But the question is how much more will the president sort of implement this messaging, perhaps leading up to the midterms. But they say the primary focus has to be on getting things done.
CHUCK TODD:
Cornell, the ignore Trump strategy, whether it was with Biden, whether it's with Mitch McConnell, right, there's a lot of people in Washington, even in the mainstream media, even at Twitter and Facebook, “Oh, if we pretend he's not there or we don't quote his stuff, it doesn't grow. It turned out that was the wrong calculus.” What do you do now?
CORNELL BELCHER:
Well, I do think you have to do what the president has done. And so what they've pivoted and started to do right now, I think it's important. One, it is – you do have to fire up the base. And look, part of – and we've talked about this before – part of President Biden's problems with the job approval numbers have been, quite frankly, that they've dropped among Democrats, right? Not enough Democrats see him as someone who's fighting and a strong leader and who's taking on these issues. I thought that his speech the other day was a very important speech where he used really important and powerful language. He will stand in that breach, right? He will not allow us to hold a dagger to the neck of democracy. That is firing up base sort of language. And laying out for Americans, quite frankly, what are the obstacles. You can either choose democracy or you can choose authoritarianism. And I think you'll see that play out even more heading into the midterms.
CHUCK TODD:
Sara Fagen, is there anything the January 6th committee could come up with that would turn 75% of the Republicans that support Trump right now and his misinformation down to, say, 50%?
SARA FAGEN:
You know, I think Adam Kinzinger said if there was some proof that the president knew what was going to happen happened and he supported it and encouraged it – that, perhaps, could change something. But I think most people are conditioned in politics now to disbelieve what comes out of either partisan side of the aisle. So no matter what that committee puts out – because there are so few Republicans involved and most Republicans have dismissed it – the base isn't going to believe anything that comes out of it anyway. But, you know, look, here, you know, we're focused on Trump, understandably so, and the aftermath of the one-year anniversary.
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
SARA FAGEN:
But we're heading into, you know, a year away from primary season. Perhaps he runs, perhaps he doesn't. Right now, 55% of Republicans would like somebody else to be the standard bearer of the Republican Party. So while he is still the dominant force, you know, a year from now, is that 65%? You know, he is, ultimately, at some point, going to become a fading member of the party. Someone new will emerge.
CHUCK TODD:
Sara, I've heard this from a lot of Republicans. And we went a year of this, maybe you're right. But Anna Palmer, it seems like Mitch McConnell's been betting on the fade for a year and it didn't come to fruition.
ANNA PALMER:
I think that's right. I also think what's an important point is whether it's Trump who runs or not, it's the brand of politics that he represents. And that is a growing part of the House conference in particular, but also in the Senate. And when you look at some of these other Republicans who could potentially run, they're also running in that same vein. It's not as if establishment Republicans are going to all of the sudden see some resurgence here.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, I'm going to pause it there.
SARA FAGEN:
No, but I do --
CHUCK TODD:
Go ahead, real fast, Sara. Sorry. It’s tough on a remote.
SARA FAGEN:
I was going to say, you know – I know. I think that many of these Republicans though, when you think of the Ron DeSantises, the Chris Christies of the world, they're a nice bridge between President Bush and Donald Trump rhetorically. And their policies are more like a President Bush than like Donald Trump. I mean, so I don't necessarily agree with that.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. Well, I'm going to pause it there. When we come back, does America, the nation of immigrants, need actual more immigrants? What falling immigration means for our job market. That's next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back, Data Download time. And a look into one factor that could be contributing to the worker shortages we've been seeing as we enter 2022. We've talked about how everything from fears of infection, to childcare needs, to worker burnout have led to what's simply known now as the Great Resignation. There's another factor we might be overlooking and that's this: fewer immigrants coming into the country looking for work and filling some of these jobs. Look at this, over the last six years, net international migration into the United States, we were at a million in 2016. And as you know, immigration got heavily politicized, right, over this six-year period. And look what it's dribbled down to, 247,000 through mid-year 2021. So what does this mean? Well, foreign-born workers are – work more often in the service industry than native-born workers. Also in natural resources and construction work. More foreign-born workers work there than native-born. We're already seeing labor shortages in the service industries in here. And you have fewer immigrants looking for these jobs, it adds to the – it adds to the problem. Then you can talk about the cost. Right? We've heard plenty of companies say, "Well, rising wages mean rising cost." Well, native-born Americans do make more money. Foreign-born workers here, first generation immigrants, first job, they make less. We can have a longer conversation about that distinction. The fact of the matter is this, in the United States, this is what has kept our economy growing, if you will. It's been more immigrant labor. And the politicization of immigration has made members of both parties not want to deal with the fact that we're short of workers, and the biggest reason why is a lack of immigration. When we come back, Democrats are forcing a Senate vote on voting rights. Is the effort real? Or is this just a January show? Stay with us.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Peter, you made reference to the state of the union. And in some ways, you said the January 6th was that. But we do have an official date for it, March 1st. Tuesday, the president goes to Georgia to talk about voting rights. Is this a real push to get it passed or is this convenient timing because one, Build Back Better is on ice, and two, it's January. Between January 6th and the MLK holiday they think they should be talking about this issue.
PETER ALEXANDER:
Yeah, it's not clear that they'll have made any real progress on Build Back Better or on voting rights by that March 1st State of the Union. When I speak to White House officials, you know, they acknowledge this is an issue that certainly animates the base. They say that they are in lockstep with Chuck Schumer as it relates to voting rights. The reason they're going to Georgia, obviously, is because the recent election disputes that have taken place down there. The cradle of the Civil Rights Movement. But fundamentally, and I expect the president will say that he would support a carve out, a filibuster carve out for voting rights if necessary. But the problem, privately they acknowledge, White House officials do, is that they're still in the same place which is they can't get Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema on board with this. So it's not clear that they're anywhere different than they were many months ago on this. And there are already some voting rights groups, Chuck, in Georgia right now who are saying, "Don't come unless you have a concrete plan." There is no better concrete plan and to get those folks on board and how do they do that?
CHUCK TODD:
Cornell, has anything changed in the last six months on this issue? Is there a new strategy that we don't know about that's going to magically pass this bill?
CORNELL BELCHER:
Well, look, one of the things that's important coming from the White House is actually when the president gets behind something. And if he gets behind something, you can roll out and you can make change. Right? It is an all-hands-on-deck effort by the White House to move this along because they do see the urgency. And that's, you know, Senator Schumer talked about last week that, look, there's a threat to our democracy. And, look, this actually sort of also buttonholes well with the conversation, you know, pivoting off of January 6th. The majority of Americans right now think that our democracy is weaker now than it has been before. You've got over 70% of Americans who think that January 6th was, in fact, an attack on our democracy. So look, this is not even about sort of, you know, just the base. Although you've got to animate the base around this fight. But there is a swath of middle America, Chuck, that thinks our democracy is under attack. And the president needs to politically talk to them and mobilize them as well. I think if the president and vice president out there, you know, barnstorming, making this a top of the list issue concern, I think we can get some movement on it.
CHUCK TODD:
Cornell, though, we don't live in a vacuum. How much does Covid sort of basically complicate? Look, the calendar's the calendar. This is an even-numbered year. I mean, it just seems unrealistic.
CORNELL BELCHER:
Well, Covid is a giant X-factor. Look, I sat in focus groups, well, actually we got to do it online now. But I sat in my laptop looking at focus groups. And look, Covid is a big, wet blanket thrown over the attitudes of Americans. They are concerned about when the next shoe's going to fall. They're concerned about whether or not we're going to go back in lockdown. So there's a lot of anxiety about that. The president is doing the best he can. But you also, look, a lot of this entrenchment is coming from Republicans, both the over the 1/3 Republicans say they definitely won't get the vaccination. But also, look, you brought Ron DeSantis earlier. Ron DeSantis is on the hot seat right now for allowing a stockpile of tests to, you know, just go to waste. So there is this big Covid problem. It is a wet blanket over the presidency.
CHUCK TODD:
Sara Fagen, is there any penalty for Republicans being seen as not on the side of this issue?
SARA FAGEN:
Well, look, I think, first of all, overwhelmingly, you know, it's easier to vote in the United States than it ever has been. And so much of the rhetoric around voting rights is really about animating the Democratic base. Americans overwhelmingly support voter IDs. Getting an ID is easy in the United States. And it's also free if you can't afford it. And so, you know, so much of this is about mobilizing the base. And I think for most Americans, particularly independent Americans, they recognize that. So this is an issue that's not going to pass. And I think that this is just about the base.
CHUCK TODD:
Anna Palmer --
CORNELL BELCHER:
I've got to get in here, Chuck. No.
CHUCK TODD:
Go ahead.
CORNELL BELCHER:
I got to get in here, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Go ahead.
CORNELL BELCHER:
I've got to push back on my friend, Sara, about how easy it is to vote in America. It is not that easy to vote in America. If you happen to look like me and you're in Georgia, you're standing in line for six or seven hours to vote. It's not easy to vote in America if you happen to look like me. Right? And that's been done intentionally. Republicans have intentionally shut down voting polls for places that cater to minorities and people who actually vote Democratic. You've seen over 200 laws pass over this last year since the power of young people and Black voters turned and flipped states, and Hispanic votes flipped states. That's not by accident, Sara. It is harder to vote in America today --
SARA FAGEN:
The fact though --
CORNELL BELCHER:
– than it was.
SARA FAGEN:
The facts are, though, that it is more open in the south than it is even in the northeast, Cornell. And the reality is, early vote, absentee vote, these have been growing for the last decade. Every year, more and more people vote by these means. And so I just don't think that's accurate.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, I --
CORNELL BELCHER:
It's been growing every decade. It's been growing. But have you seen what the state legislative bodies have been doing? You're right, it has been growing. It has been growing and more Americans have been voting. And now they're pulling those things back.
CHUCK TODD:
I hate having to stop. But unfortunately, that is what happens when you only have a one-hour show. That's all we have for today. A terrific panel. Thank you all. We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.