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Transcript: All In with Chris Hayes, 7/12/22

Guests: N/A


The January 6 Committee holds its 7th public hearing. According to

testimony, rally organizers and Trump allies knew Donald Trump would order

them to Capitol after his speech. Capitol rioter Stephen Ayres recounts how

Trump got the crowd riled up. Former White House Counsel Pat Cipollone

testifies Trump should have conceded. The January 6 Committee shows

testimonies of senior White House officials saying they repeatedly advised

Trump to concede.




RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST (voiceover): The January 6 investigation day


REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): American carnage, it turned out to be an

excellent prophecy of what his rage would come to visit on our people.

MADDOW: The view from inside the oval office told for the first time by

Trump`s own White House Counsel.


Flynn. I saw Sidney Powell sitting there. I was not happy to see the people

who were in the Oval Office.


CIPOLLONE: The overstock person, I`ve never met, I never knew who this guy

was. I walked in, I looked at him and said, "Who are you?" I don`t think

any of these people were providing the President with good advice. So, I

didn`t understand how they had gotten in.

MADDOW: Alleged conspirators invited into the White House by the President

with bizarre results.

CIPOLLONE: To have the federal government seize voting machines, that`s a

terrible idea for the country.


that I was a quitter. I yelled back better come over. Better sit your

effing ass back down.

SIDNEY POWELL, TRUMP LAWYER: He asked Pat Cipollone if he had the authority

to name a special counsel, and he said yes.

MADDOW: A mob summoned by the President to come not just to the nation`s

capital city, but to the U.S. Capitol building.

MATT BRACKEN, RIGHT-WING COMMENTATOR: We`re going to only be saved by

millions of Americans moving to Washington, occupying the entire area, if

necessary, storming right into the Capitol.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Red wave, bitch. Red wave -- there`s going to be a Red

Wedding going down January 6.

REP. STEPHANIE MURPHY (D-FL): So, why did you decide to march to the



everybody round up, ordered everybody head on down. So, we basically just

following what he said.

MADDOW: A jarring closing revelation from the investigators.

REP. LIZ CHENEY (R-WY): After our last hearing, President Trump tried to

call a witness in our investigation. A witness you have not yet seen in

these hearings. This Committee has supplied that information to the

Department of Justice.

MADDOW: Tonight, one of the committee members who led today`s hearing,

Congressman Jamie Raskin of Maryland, plus Nicolle Wallace, Chris Hayes,

Joy Reid, Lawrence O`Donnell, Ari Melber, Stephanie Ruhle, Alex Wagner, all

here for our primetime recap of the seventh hearing from the January 6



MADDOW: Good evening. I`m Rachel Maddow here at MSNBC headquarters

alongside the great Joy Reid, Chris Hayes, Lawrence O`Donnell, and Nicolle

Wallace. I`m very happy to be with all of you this evening. I will be

joined tonight by our colleagues Ari Melber, Stephanie Ruhle, Alex Wagner

over the course of tonight`s coverage.

We are all here together not because this is some weird cable news version

of an all-star game or a pro bowl, but because this is our primetime recap

of the sprawling and at times shocking hearing today from the January 6

investigation. Today`s hearing was led by two members of Congress,

Stephanie Murphy of Florida, Jamie Raskin of Maryland. Congressman Raskin

will be our guest here live tonight not too long from now.

But before we speak with him about today`s revelations from the

investigation, we are first going to recap what those revelations were. We

are conscious of the historic nature of these proceedings, conscious of the

precedent from the 1970s when the Watergate hearings were equally historic,

equally consequential for the country. They were also equally inconvenient

to watch live as they happen at the Watergate hearings like today`s January

6 hearing, they were held in the middle of the workday, and that is just

not convenient for most Americans, particularly when the hearings are hours

long like today`s was.

Our predecessors in the news business either re-aired or recapped the

Watergate hearings every night in primetime when that investigation was

underway in 1973. We know now looking back at history that that was a good

decision by news organizations back then. It was a service to the country

at the time, and it meant a lot. And so, we here at MSNBC have committed to

do the same for everyday time hearing from the January 6 investigators.

So, whether or not you were able to watch today`s hearings live, let`s go.

Here`s the main revelations from the investigators. We`ll go through them

one by one. And let`s start with what I think may be the two most explosive

points that were made today. Both of them brand new and both of them very

specific. The first is how the mob of Trump supporters ended up at the U.S.

Capitol building on January 6th.

Remember, the rally was not at the U.S. Capitol building. The rally was

just outside the White House quite a long walk actually from the U.S.

Capitol building. Today, the January 6 investigators revealed for the first

time that former President Trump planned in advance that he would tell the

crowd at his rally to march to the U.S. Capitol building where Congress was

to be in session counting the electoral votes.


We`d heard testimony at previous hearings that Trump wanted the crowd to

march to the Capitol, that he tried to and intended to go there alongside

them himself. But today, for the first time, they showed evidence,

including previously unseen texts and emails, that proves that Trump

secretly planned in advance that he would tell the crowd to march to the

Capitol building.

It was supposed to be a secret. It was supposed to be closely held among

him and January 6 organizers so that nobody else in the government could

stop the plan, so it couldn`t be, in one person`s words, sabotaged so no

federal agencies would be able to intervene to stop what he was planning.


MURPHY: After her January 2nd call with Mr. Meadows, Katrina Pierson sent

an email to fellow rally organizers. She wrote, POTUS expectations are to

have something intimate at the Ellipse, and call on everyone to march to

the Capitol. The President`s own documents suggest that the President had

decided to call on his supporters to go to the Capitol on January 6, but

that he chose not to widely announce it until his speech on the Ellipse

that morning.

This is a January 4th text message from a rally organizer to Mike Lindell,

the MyPillow CEO. The organizer says, you know, this stays between us after

the Ellipse. POTUS is going to have us march there/the Capitol. It cannot

get out about the second stage, because people will try and set up another

and sabotage it. It can also not get out about the march, because I will be

in trouble with the National Park Service and all the agencies. But POTUS

is going to just call for it, "unexpectedly."

And then on the morning of January 5th, Ali Alexander, whose firebrand

style concerned Katrina Pierson, sent a similar text to a conservative

journalist. Mr. Alexander said, "Tomorrow: Ellipse, then US Capitol. Trump

is supposed to order us to the Capitol at the end of his speech, but we

will see."


MADDOW: Ellipse then U.S. Capitol. So, revealed today about the January 6

investigation, it was the plan all along for Trump to say to the crowd that

he was rallying just outside the White House. It was the plan for him all

along for him to tell them unexpectedly that they should leave that rally

site and walk to Congress, walk to the U.S. Capitol building across town

where Congress was meeting to count the electoral votes that had not been

put in the rally permit application, that is not something that had been

discussed in the upper echelons of government among any of the agencies

that would have to work in order to make a movement like that safe or

anything approaching safe. It was going to be a surprise.

The rally organizers, the Stop the Steal people were told people like Mike

Lindell, MyPillow guy, we`re told that these were the President`s secret

plans. But the actual government was not told, because they knew in advance

that if those agencies had advanced word that was Trump`s plan, they tried

to stop it. So, this was a private plan among the president and the people

he was using to summon the crowds to Washington, one that needed to be kept

secret from the government because of course what it was was a plan for a

physical overthrow of the government. So, that was news today.

As we will see in a moment, the investigators also revealed that while

Trump`s speech writers put one reference to going to the Capitol Building

in his written speech for the morning of January 6, Trump ad-libbed it

three extra times in his speech that morning to make sure it was getting

through loud and clear that he wanted the mob to go physically get


Today, in live witness testimony, the committee also showed how that worked

in practice, what it meant that day in very practical terms, that Trump

supporters who thought they were being summoned to the Capitol for a Trump

rally at the Ellipse outside of the White House, soon found themselves

somewhere else, soon found themselves directed by President Trump that they

should leave the White House area, they should leave the Ellipse, and

instead walk across town and go to the U.S. Capitol building.

This was testimony today from Stephen Ayres who did help storm the Capitol,

even though he didn`t intend to in advance, he was criminally charged for

his role in January 6.


REP. BENNIE THOMPSON (D-MS): So, this committee has reviewed thousands of

hours of surveillance footage from January 6. During this review, we

identified you entering the Capitol as we see in this video. Mr. Ayres, why

did you decide to come to Washington on January 6th?

AYRES: For me, for me personally, you know -- I was, you know, pretty

hardcore into the social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. I followed,

you know, President Trump, you know, on all the websites, you know. He

basically put out, you know, come to the Stop the Steal rally, you know,

and I felt like I needed to be down here.


CHENEY: Mr. Ayers, when you entered the Capitol last year, did you believe

that the election had been stolen?

AYERS: At that time, yes. You know, everything that I was -- I was seeing

online, I definitely believed that that`s exactly what -- that was the


CHENEY: And when you heard from President Trump that the election was

stolen, how did that make you feel?

AYRES: Oh, I was, you know, I was very upset, as were most of his

supporters. You know, that`s basically what got me to come down here.

CHENEY: We`ve also talked about today and in previous hearings the extent

to which the President himself was told that the election hadn`t been

stolen, by his Justice Department, by his White House counsel, by his

campaign. Would it have made a difference to you to know that President

Trump himself had no evidence of widespread fraud?

AYRES: Oh, definitely, you know. Who knows, I may not have come down here.

MURPHY: Mr. Ayres, you were in that crowd at the rally, and then the crowd

that marched to the Capitol. When you arrived on the Ellipse that morning,

were you planning on going to the Capitol?

AYRES: No, we didn`t actually plan to go down there. You know, we went

basically to see the Stop the Steal rally and that was it.

MURPHY: So, why did you decide to march to the Capitol?

AYRES: Well, basically, you know, the President got everybody riled up and

told everybody to head on down. So we basically was just following what he


MURPHY: After the President`s speech as you`re marching down to the

Capitol, how did you feel?

AYRES: I was, you know, I`m angry. You know, after everything that was

basically said in the speech. You know, a lot of the stuff he said he

already put out in tweets. I`ve already seen it and heard it before. So, I

mean, I was already worked up and so were most of the people there.

MURPHY: So, as you started marching, did you think there was still a chance

the election would be overturned?

AYRES: Yes, at that time I did, you know, because everybody was kind of

like in the hope that, you know, Vice President Pence was not going to

certify the election. So, that hope was there.

MURPHY: Did you think that the President would be marching with you?

AYRES: Yes, I think everybody thought he was going to be coming down. You

know, he said it in his speech, you know, kind of like he`s going to be

there with us. So, I mean, I think -- I believed it.

MURPHY: I understand. We know that you illegally entered the Capitol that

afternoon and then left the Capitol area later on. What made you decide to


AYRES: Basically, when President Trump put his tweet out. We literally left

right after that come out. You know, to me if he would have done that

earlier in the day, 1:30, I -- you know, we wouldn`t be in this -- maybe we

wouldn`t be in this bad of a situation or something.

MURPHY: Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.


MADDOW: We left when Trump put out his tweet telling us to leave. If he had

done that earlier in the day, maybe 1:30 p.m. Instead of after 4:00 p.m.

maybe we wouldn`t be in this bad situation. Today, Stephen Ayres, one of

the live witnesses at today`s hearing. At one point in the hearing room,

Mr. Ayers approached members of the Capitol Police and D.C. metropolitan

police who were injured on January 6 who were at the hearing today just to

watch the proceedings. Mr. Ayers spoke to each of them and reportedly

apologized to them about his role in the capital attack. I`m not sure the

apologies from him went over well with all of those officers, but he did

attempt it personally and eye to eye.

That testimony from him about being there that day, responding to President

Trump`s call to be there, responding to President Trump`s call to go to the

Capitol building even though he hadn`t planned to do that at all, his later

testimony about his regret for his actions and how participating in the

Capitol attack has effectively ruined his life.

It is all very human, very affecting on a personal level, but I will say

for the purposes of the committee`s investigation, and the very specific

question of the culpability of former President Trump and the Trump White

House in the crimes that were committed, Mr. Ayers is testimony is more

than just human. It`s more than just affecting. It closes the loop on an

important legal question as to whether or not Trump was controlling the

crowd that day. He clearly was in a very granular sense.

This wasn`t some peaceful protests that got out of hand, that got beyond

him. This was a serious series of actions that were planned in advance and

directed personally by the President. And the crowd responded to him as if

they were a machine and he held the remote control that drove it. He said,

go, they went. He said, leave, they left.



RASKIN: The medieval-style combat with our police, the occupation of the

building, this was going on for several hours until the President issued at

4:17 a tweet, I believe that included a video, telling people to go home.

Did you see that, and did that have any effect on what you were doing?

AYRES: Well, when we were there, as soon as that come out, everybody

started talking about it and that`s -- it seemed like it started to

disperse, you know, some of the crowd. Obviously, you know, once we got

back to the hotel room, we seen that it was still going on, but it

definitely dispersed a lot of the crowd.

RASKIN: And did you leave at that point?

AYRES: Yes, we did. Yes, we left.

RASKIN: So, in other words, that was the key moment when you decided to

leave when President Trump told people to go home.

AYRES: Yes, yes, we left right when that come out.


MADDOW: That evidence about Trump being in control of the crowd, being

responsible for its movement and behavior, that was a main theme today. And

it fit with a broader and just ripping argument from the investigations

Vice Chair Congresswoman Liz Cheney, at the outset of the hearing today,

when she argued that the President is the one who did it. And no matter

what defenses are being mounted on his behalf, the fact that he did it is

something that can`t be pawned off on anyone else.


CHENEY: The argument seems to be that President Trump was manipulated by

others outside the administration, that he was persuaded to ignore his

closest advisers, and that he was incapable of telling right from wrong.

This new strategy is to try to blame only John Eastman or Sidney Powell or

Congressman Scott Perry or others and not President Trump.

In this version, the president was "poorly served" by these outside

advisers. The strategy is to blame people his advisers called "the crazies"

for what Donald Trump did. This, of course, is nonsense. President Trump is

a 76-year-old man. He is not an impressionable child. Just like everyone

else in our country, he is responsible for his own actions and his own


As our investigation has shown, Donald Trump had access to more detailed

and specific information showing that the election was not actually stolen

than almost any other American, and he was told this over and over again.

No rational or sane man in his position could disregard that information

and reach the opposite conclusion.

And Donald Trump cannot escape responsibility by being willfully blind, nor

can any argument of any kind excuse President Trump`s behavior during the

violent attack on January 6th.


MADDOW: He`s a 76-year-old man, not an impressionable child. You will know

when your insults and critique is landing when the general thrust of it is

you are an adult. Vice Chair Liz Cheney landing a few as she want to do.

Before we take a break here though, I just want to get in one more point, a

real bombshell and a standalone point dropped by Liz Cheney right at the

end of the hearing. She knows how to make an impression. Watch.


CHENEY: One more item. After our last hearing, President Trump tried to

call a witness in our investigation. A witness you have not yet seen in

these hearings. That person declined to answer or respond to President

Trump`s call and instead alerted their lawyer to the call.

Their lawyer alerted us and this committee has supplied that information to

the Department of Justice. Let me say one more time, we will take any

effort to influence witness testimony very seriously. Thank you, Mr.

Chairman. I yield back.


MADDOW: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Which is in Congress is

dropping the microphone. Here with my colleagues Lawrence O`Donnell,

Nicolle Wallace, Joy Reid, Chris Hayes. Obviously, that sort of still just

scratching the surface today was a long hearing with a lot of different

points. I think today`s hearing did feel like it was sprawling. We got to a

lot of different things.

But this point about Trump having secretly planned to direct people to the

Capitol without telling the authorities, without telling the other agencies

of the government, that seems to me to be a very important new point.


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: Yes. And I think it`s both a new point and it`s

also in line with a bunch of other new revelations they have surfaced which

point to consciousness of guilt, right? Like, the fact they were scheming,

the fact that they`re having meetings and not telling other people, the

fact that the secret electors were told not to tell other people, told not

to text about it, like, they have revealed time and time again, again,

because there was this weird degree to which they were doing it in public.

Like, Rudy Giuliani was running around the country doing in public, you

could almost think like, oh, they didn`t realize like, that they had to

hide some of this. But that`s not the case. Like, they did have to hide

some of that.

MADDOW: And they knew it.

HAYES: And they knew it, and that --

MADDOW: And they put it into writing.

HAYES: And they put it into writing. And that to me just speaks to the fact

that there is -- there really was consciousness of guilt. The other thing I

thought that you did a great job laying this out just with the witness is

that it`s just very clear now the crowd was the weapon.


HAYES: He had nothing left at that point. He knows he doesn`t control DOD.

He knows he can`t send in the National Guard. He can`t do a traditional

coup. The courts didn`t work. He`s hoping that he can get the growth in

Congress. But all he has left, the weapon is the crowd. And it`s wielded

like a weapon. And everyone around the pot knows it.

The Proud Boys go early, but they know they need backup. Trump goes to the

Ellipse, and he hurls it like a, you know, David and slingshot, right, at

the Capitol. Like, the crowd is the weapon. That is -- that is crystal

clear now after the hearing.

NICOLLE WALLACE, MSNBC HOST: But there`s something so crazy. I mean, the

testimony about the OTR builds on Cassidy Hutchinson`s testimony, and we

talked about it together afterward, where Liz Cheney has her go through

almost a boring explanation of what is the difference between a plan,

movement, and an OTR. And it wasn`t totally clear what she was building at,

but it was obviously this.

MADDOW: An OTR means an Off The Record.

WALLACE: OTR means -- right, it`s like President Biden stops and gets ice

cream. President Obama and Michelle sometimes, if they`re on vacation, will

stop by something philanthropic. It`s not on the schedule, so that you

don`t have to lock down the venue that you`re going to, you don`t need to

put mags (INAUDIBLE).

The fact that an OTR was leaked to the rally organizers is a massive -- I

mean, on top of being central to the coup, a massive operational security

violation. And the fact that he was communicating with Katrina Pierson and

the rally organizers about a planned OTR, it`s not an OTR anymore. And so,

it really illuminates the parallel off book government that he was leading.

Of course, he wasn`t sitting atop the nation`s military. He was the

commander in chief of this other thing.

MADDOW: He was running an operation against the U.S. government. And so,

the U.S. government had to be kept in the dark about it.

JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: And it really -- oh, go ahead.

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: And then there`s the Stephen Ayres

testimony which closes the Trump involvement. Meaning, Trump we now know

was planning to say go to the Capitol, let`s keep it a secret that I`m

going to say go to the capitol.

MADDOW: Spring it on him.

O`DONNELL: So, there`s another moment where Trump has another decision to

make, which to him might not have felt like a decision. And that`s when

he`s on that stage in the Ellipse, and they`re starting to tell them, they

have weapons, that crowd has extremely dangerous weapons, and they`re

choosing not to come through our weapons detectors, because they don`t want

to surrender their weapons.

So, Trump now has new knowledge that they have weapons. He has a choice to

make. Do I stick with my original plan of sending them to the Capitol now

that I know they have deadly weapons? Yes, I guess I would. So, he does

that, right? And then -- and then -- so he`s clearly the guy now

established through, you know, these hearings, who has ordered a weapon

equipped crowd to go to the Capitol. The weapons have a purpose.

And then Stephen Ayres comes and tells you, he`s the guy who told us to

leave, that testimony that you just showed about Ayers saying we left

because he told us to leave, sets us up for the next hearing in which

you`re going to see every single minute Donald Trump did not tell them to

leave, and they will sink that no doubt with this is the moment where this

police officers suffered a concussion and that`s a minute where Donald

Trump didn`t act. It will all be there.

And one of the stunning things that happened as sometimes does and hearing

rooms after the testimony is over, is you shed some of it Stephen Ayres

going over to the Capitol Police officers. And he chose to do this. He

chose to go over and shake their hands. There`s a stunning photograph still

that`s out there now of Harry Dunn sitting there in uniform with the

handshake. And the person who tweeted the photograph said, apology offered

an apology accepted. Harry Dunn took that photograph, retweet it and said

apology offered.

REID: Yes, that`s right.

O`DONNELL: He`s actually going to join us at 10:00 tonight. We`ll find out

if that`s an apology accepted by Harry Dunn.



REID: Right. I mean, the thing is to connect your point to the point that

you all have been making, you know, I have had this like, obsessive

question in my mind. What happened between the hour and 42 minutes after

the loonies all leave, right? You have this amazing picture that Cassie

Hutchinson actually took the picture of Rudolph Giuliani being escorted out

by Mark Meadows to make sure he didn`t double back and go back to the

residence. Like, he wanted him out-out.

So, they`re all gone. Trump is now alone for an hour and 42 minutes. He now

knows that they`re not seizing the election machines. That didn`t happen.

He now understands that he has -- I mean, he`s already lost all of his

legal suits, right? The Sidney Powell option didn`t work. He`s now thinking

I`m out of options.

HAYES: Right.

REID: I`m at options to stay in power. Who does he call if anyone? Because

this isn`t some, you know, logistical genius. I mean, The Apprentice was

produced by other people. He just said what people told him to say. This

isn`t like a smart guy that`s, you know, coming up with logistical plans. I

want to know where -- what happens in that mental trajectory in Donald

Trump`s mind between OK, the legal strategy didn`t work, all these other

strategies aren`t working. They`re telling me the DOJ isn`t doing it. OK,

I`m going to keep trying with Pence, but I`m going to use this crowd.

And it`s a two-layer weapon. It`s the actual just masses of people, the

heirs, the people who just do whatever Donald Trump says. They`re just

apparatchiks. But then there are the knowledgeable people, the Oath

Keepers, the Proud Boys, the people who are doing logistics, the people who

figured out where the speaker`s lounge is, the people who figured out that

they need to block the tunnels, the people who are just screaming, they had

the rope.

I mean, they brought a rope. We just found from Ben Collins, Day of the

Rope is like a thing in far right-wing circles who understood do the rope

means literally bring a rope. And I mean, I want to know, who did Donald

Trump talk to after midnight? Because, you know, he sits up and just calls

people. It`s who he is.

MADDOW: We`re going to get to some of that because we`ve got -- we do we do

get this new part of the timeline, right? Today was in part about January

6, but as they said, you know, the last -- the next hearing, like Lawrence

was describing, is going to be minute by minute on January 6. What today

was, was starting December -- mid-December when the electors cast their


And so, it was over. And Trump was told by an amazing array of people,

including we`re about to see members of his family, that it was over. And

then he decided he needed this plan B. So, that is next. Today`s hearing

also revealed the extent to which people in Trump`s orbit including his

family, knew that it was over in mid-December before he started on this

other course. That`s all ahead. Stay with us.


AYERS: It makes me mad because I was hanging on every word he was saying.

Everything he was putting out I was following it. I mean, if I was doing

it, hundreds of thousands or millions of other people are doing it, or

maybe even still doing it.

The biggest thing is I consider myself a family man and I love my country.

I don`t think any one man is bigger than either one of those. I think

that`s what needs to be taken. You know, people dive into the politics. And

for me, I felt like I had, you know, like horse blinders on. I was -- I was

locked in the whole time. The biggest thing for me is take the blinders

off. Make sure you step back and see what`s going on before it`s too late.





UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you believe Mr. Cipollone that the President should

concede once you made a determination based on the investigations that you

credited DOJ did. Did you, in your mind, form a belief the president should

concede the election loss at certain point after the election?

CIPOLLONE: Well, again, I was the White House Counsel. Some of those

decisions are political. So to the extent that -- but if your question is

did I believe he should concede the election at a point in time? Yes, I

did. I believe Leader McConnell went on to the floor of the Senate, I

believe in late December, and basically said, you know, the process is

done. You know, that would be in line with my thinking on these things.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As early as that November 23rd meeting, we understand

that there was discussion about the President possibly conceding the

election. And specifically, we understand that Mark Meadows assured both

you and Attorney General Barr that the President would eventually agree to

a graceful exit. Do you remember Mr. Meadows making any such


CIPOLLONE: Are you saying as part of that meeting or separately? Again,

without getting into that meeting, I would say that that is a -- that is a

statement and a sentiment that I heard from Mark Meadows.


MADDOW: That is a statement and a sentiment that I heard from Mark Meadows

that the President should agree to a graceful exit. Welcome back to our

primetime recap of the January 6 hearing today. We heard today for the

first time from Trump`s White House Counsel Pat Cipollone who revealed

himself to have known that the election wasn`t stolen, to have believed

that the former President Trump should have conceded the election since he

lost it.

The committee also revealed that lots of other senior people in the White

House in the President`s orbit, including members of the Cabinet, the

President`s own daughter, Ivanka, all also knew that it was over. That it

was over after the electors cast their votes on December 14.


EUGENE SCALIA, FORMER SECRETARY OF LABOR: So, I had to put a call into the

President. I might have called on the 13th. We spoke, I believe, on the

14th in which I conveyed to him that I thought that it was time for him to

acknowledge that President Biden had prevailed in the election. But I

communicated to the President that when that legal process is exhausted and

when the electors have voted, that that`s the point at which that outcome

needs to be expected.

I told him that I did believe yes, that once those legal processes were

run, if fraud had not been established that had affected the outcome of the

election, then unfortunately, I believed that what had to be done was

concede the outcome.


WILLIAM BARR, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: December 14th was the day that

the states certified their votes and sent them to Congress. And in my view,

that was the end of the matter. I didn`t see -- you know, I thought that

this would lead inexorably to a new administration.


personal viewpoint was that the Electoral College had met, which is the

system that our country is set under to elect a President and Vice

President. And I believed at that point that the means for him to pursue

litigation was probably closed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And do you recall what his response, if any, was?

DEERE: He disagreed.

CHENEY: I wanted to clarify, Ms. McEnany. So, back to my previous question.

It was your view then -- or was it your view that the efforts to overturn

the election should have stopped once the litigation was complete?

MCENANY: In my view, upon the conclusion of litigation was when I began to

plan for life after the administration.

MURPHY: And this is what Ivanka Trump told us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: December 14th was the day on which the Electoral College

met. When these electors around the country met and cast the electoral

votes consistent with the popular vote in each state. And it was obviously

a public proceeding or a series of proceedings that President Biden had

obtained the requisite number of electors.

Was that an important day for you? Did that affect sort of your planning or

your realization as to whether or not there was going to be an end of this



my sentiment probably prior as well.


MADDOW: Ivanka Trump, the President`s adult daughter, it was also my

sentiment that it was all over in December once the electors had cast their

votes. I think it was my sentiment probably prior as well. Pat Cipollone`s

testimony, the White House Counsel`s testimony, that White House Chief of

Staff Mark Meadows was among those who knew it was over. That was a really

interesting point raised today. And it`s worth pausing on that for a second

because we heard for the first time from Cipollone, one of the things he

said was, yes, the White House Chief of Staff was with me on this.

His assertion in that regard was also bolstered by Attorney General Bill

Barr. Bill Barr and Pat Cipollone both said in testimony aired today that

they heard from the Chief of Staff Mark Meadows that he knew Trump had

lost, that he knew Trump would have to find a way to concede.

And then, this last thing that I`m just going to play here for a second.

This sort of past -- I think, mostly unremarked upon today given all of the

other revelations from the committee, but when it comes to Mark Meadows,

this seems very important. When it comes to Mark Meadows, we also today got

a brand new previously unheard assertion from his top deputy Cassidy

Hutchinson about what Mark Meadows did around this time and why he did it.

Now, we don`t know why they held this piece of Cassidy Hutchinson testimony

until today. We`ve heard so much from her in previous hearings both on tape

and in live testimony. But it is possible that the investigators on the

January 6 Committee have held this back until today, because it`s so bad

for Mark Meadows, because they are continuing a legal battle with Mark

Meadows to try to get him to testify to their investigation.

This clip about Mark Meadows today points to Mark Meadows` state of mind,

his intentions behind what he was doing, and a way that might prove to be a

problem for him if he ever faces criminal charges in this matter.



I perceived his goal with all of this to keep Trump in office. You know, he

had very seriously and deeply considered the allegations of voter fraud.

But when he began acknowledging that maybe there wasn`t enough voter fraud

to overturn the election, you know, I witnessed him start to explore

potential constitutional loopholes more extensively, which I then connected

with John Eastman`s theories.


MADDOW: The White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows seriously and deeply

considered the fraud allegations. Basically, he found there wasn`t anything

to them. And so he then instead turned to trying to find constitutional

loopholes to keep Trump in power anyway. That is, I know he lost, I am

going to try to keep him in power anyway knowing that he lost.

That moment was not a criminal referral of Mark Meadows to the Justice

Department, but the investigators are handing the Justice Department

basically like both of the Lego pieces, they would need to build a very

simple, stable criminal case against him.

WALLACE: Yes. And this ties into what a federal judge has already called

likely felony crimes committed by Trump and Eastman. We now have, ding,

ding, ding, the third sort of piece of -- the third Lego, if you will, in a

very simple legal Lego structure.

REID: Can you -- I mean, maybe explain how the -- I mean, the Chief of

Staff is obviously the most loyal person to the president or the closest

person in many ways to the President. But I cannot explain Mark Meadows in

my own mind. This is a guy -- he`s like a garden variety, birther, Tea

Party congressman from North Carolina. He`s not like a Ted Cruz who like

styles himself as some sort of 1776 like Redux revolutionary. Like, he`s

just some guy who becomes Chief of Staff.

And why is he willing to risk jail? I mean, he got like $1 million for his

pack from the slush fund. $1 million isn`t worth lying n for the President

of the United States and fomenting a coup. I cannot make it make sense in

my mind.

WALLACE: Well, he`s also different from every other Chief of Staff, right?

I mean, John Kelly couldn`t hide his horror and disgust with Trump as he

talks about -- and Reince Priebus, you know, couldn`t get out of the Oval

and on the phone with reporters to leak about him fast enough, you know,

that talked about breaking speed records in the West Bank. What Meadows

does is he breaks bad and Cassidy Hutchinson tells us what it happened.

HAYES: Yes, right. That`s right.

REID: Yes.

WALLACE: Somewhere between all the fraud was in Bill Barr`s words,

bullshit, and you know, let`s stay in power for four more years, Meadows

breaks bad.

HAYES: And I also thought that Cassidy Hutchinson there -- and again, I`ve

said this before at this very table, but I have to say it again, there is

this weird suspension of disbelief guilelessness to all of this. To Eugene

Scalia, Eugene Scalia is a pretty smart guy. (INAUDIBLE) Antonin Scalia,

Secretary of Labor. Like, his like very sort of like lawyerly well. I told

him on December 14, that was the end of the process. It`s all garbage. It`s

all made up.

Guys, guys, I can tell. I knew the answer. Please come on me. Like,

everybody constantly having to indulge this. Like, oh, on December 14, it

was done, he lost, it was -- and it`s ludicrous set of like all of these

people, Bill Barr, Eugene Scalia, everyone taking this seriously. For

Cassidy Hutchison, just seeing her quiet voice like, oh, yes, once the

fraud thing didn`t work out, it was -- it`s about keeping him in office,

obviously. Like, didn`t they have to know that?

MADDOW: Yes. And by which -- by which it means there weren`t real


HAYES: There were never real arguments or real factual predicates to any of

this. And we`ve had so much testimony. And I think it`s all truthful

testimony of the mountains of labor that are going on churning in these

five weeks afterwards.

MADDOW: Well, it`s because everybody wants to help him -- and it`s not --

it`s not a real argument. There`s not a factual basis for him staying in

power. It`s a pretext.

GUTFELD: Yes, exactly.

MADDOW: They finally see if they can help him support the pretext.

HAYES: Correct.

O`DONNELL: But I do think --

MADDOW: So they`re implicated.

HAYES: Right, but that`s my question is -- that`s exactly my question. Were

they -- what were they do -- what did they tell themselves they were doing

about all these pre-textual efforts?

O`DONNELL: They were they were letting Trump learn the Trump way, which is

I`m not going to be the one who tells right crazy man this thing. I`m going

to let -- I`m going to let the Electoral College tell him that.

HAYES: Right.

O`DONNELL: And I think it is entirely conceivable that people like Scalia,

Bill Barr, people who`ve been around government, people like me were

watching this thing and thinking, I don`t know what Trump believes or

doesn`t believe, but I know what the Electoral College is going to do, so

it doesn`t matter.

HAYES: Right.

O`DONNELL: And I know Biden is going to be in the inauguration on January.

I know all of this, right? And so, I don`t care when he figures this out or

doesn`t figure it out. And I`m not going to be the one that goes in and

burns myself up. And if I`m Mark Meadows, and I want to make money from

Donald Trump when he`s not President, which is exactly what Mark Meadows

wants, I`m not going to be the bad news guy. I`m going to let the process

show this guy where the bad news is, and then you get to this

constitutional loopholes moment that Cassidy Hutchinson mentions.

That was inconceivable to Bill Barr. It was inconceivable to Cipollone. It

was inconceivable to me.

HAYES: Right. That`s why it goes over.

O`DONNELL: I didn`t know that there were constitutional loopholes. It turns

out there, and they exist on January 6. And one of the constitutional

loopholes they were going for in January 6 with the mob, as you say, as the

tool, was to literally stop it. If they don`t do it on January 6, what`s

the next sentence in the Constitution? Well, there isn`t.



HAYES: That`s right. That`s right.

O`DONNELL: And can we get it thrown into the House of Representatives? And

if we get it thrown into the House of Representatives, then Donald Trump

can win a vote.

MADDOW: And so, to answer Joy`s question, the question of who is Mark

Meadows and how is he operating here? He`s the guy who thought

constitutional loophole will do it that way.

REID: Yes.

MADDOW: That`s what it takes in terms of the facility with your citizenship

in that moment.

REID: Right.

MADDOW: All right, in a previous January 6 hearing, the investigators

sprung the noose on us that Trump hadn`t just come up with some scheme to

maybe overthrow the Justice Department and install a new attorney general.

He hadn`t just thought about it. He hadn`t argued for it. He actually tried

to do it.

Today, we got another one of those sprung on us, something that he didn`t

just argue about, he wasn`t just trying to be pretty -- persuade people

about, he apparently actually tried to do it, and we did not know it before

today, but that is next.


CIPOLLONE: I don`t think Sidney Powell would say that I thought it was a

good idea to appoint her special counsel. I was vehemently opposed. I

didn`t think she should have been appointed to anything.



MADDOW: Today`s January 6 Hearing revealed that many of the people around

former President Trump including his White House Chief of Staff and his

daughter Ivanka, they all consider the 2020 election to be over. They all

thought it was a settled matter as of December 14, the day the Electoral

College cast their votes.

On that point of the thing being over, though, being widely acknowledged to

be over on December 14 when the electors cast their votes, the

investigators today also showed us what happened after December 14.

December 14 happens, the electors cast their votes, everybody in Trump`s

orbit, including his family tells him it`s over. The investigators today

then showed us how Trump then decided he needed a plan B and how Plan B

evolved from that point forward.

If the whole Trump White House staff and cabinet and everybody decided it

was over by December 14, well, by December 16, he had found some rando

outsiders who would give him a new plan to stay in power, one that they

apparently cooked up over a meal at his Washington D.C. hotel.


RASKIN: On the evening of December 18, 2020, Sidney Powell, General Michael

Flynn and others entered the White House for an unplanned meeting with the

President. The meeting that would last multiple hours and become hot-

blooded and contentious. The executive order behind me on the screen was

drafted on December the 16th, just two days after the Electoral College

vote by several of the President`s outside advisors over a luncheon at the

Trump International Hotel.

As you can see here, this proposed order directs the Secretary of Defense

to seize voting machines, "effective immediately." But it goes even further

than that. Under the order, President Trump would appoint a special counsel

with the power to seize machines and then charge people with crimes with

all resources necessary to carry out her duties.

The specific plan was to name Sidney Powell as special counsel, the Trump

lawyer who had spent the post-election period making outlandish claims

about Venezuelan and Chinese interference in the election among others.

Here`s what White House Counsel Pat Cipollone had to say about Sidney

Powell`s qualifications to take on such expansive authority.

CIPOLLONE: I don`t think Sidney Powell would say that I thought it was a

good idea to appoint her special counsel. I was vehemently opposed. I

didn`t think she should have been appointed to anything.

RASKIN: Sidney Powell told the President that these steps were justified

because of her evidence of foreign interference in the 2020 election.

However, as we`ve seen, Trump`s allies had no such evidence and of course

no legal authority for the federal government to seize state voting

machines. Here`s Mr. Cipollone again denouncing Sidney Powell`s terrible


CIPOLLONE: There was a real question in my mind and a real concern, you

know, particularly after the Attorney General had reached a conclusion that

there wasn`t sufficient election fraud to change the outcome of the

election when other people kept suggesting that there was. The answer is,

what is it? And at some point you have to put up or shut up. That was my


UNKNOWN: Why was this on a broader scale a bad idea for a country?

CIPOLLONE: To have the federal government seize voting machines, that`s a

terrible idea for the country. That`s not how we do things in the United

States. There`s no legal authority to do that. And there is a way to

contest elections, you know, that happens all the time. But the idea that

the federal government could come in and seize election machines, no,

that`s -- I don`t -- I don`t understand why we even have to tell you why

that`s a bad idea for the country. It`s a terrible idea.


MADDOW: Do I need to spell this out. Seizing voting machines, that was the

kind of wall that Trump ran into on trying to seize voting machines. You`ll

recall that even before this, he had told the Justice Department under Bill

Barr that he should cease voting machines and Bill Barr pulled him no.

Under this fake or draft executive order, it was going to be the Pentagon,

the Defense Department, that was going to go seize the voting machines. You

saw the White House Counsel`s response to that idea there.


But seizing the voting machines wasn`t the only big terrible idea in that

draft executive order. The other one would have put Trump lawyer Sidney

Powell in charge of charging people with crimes and investigating all the

fraud which she attributed to dead communists and Venezuela. That is

something we learned today. That`s something he not only was advised to do

in this draft executive order. It`s something he not only thought about

doing. It`s not something he just kicked around with the crazies in the

White House. He actually tried to do it. He actually did it.

Certain accounts of this meeting, the investigators said today, indicate

that President Trump actually granted Ms. Powell security clearance and

appointed her to the somewhat ill-defined position of Special Counsel.


POWELL: He asked Pat Cipollone if he had the authority to name a special

counsel, and he said yes. And then he asked him if he had the authority to

give me whatever security clearance I needed, and Pat Cipollone said yes.

And then the president said, OK, you know, I`m the naming her that and I`m

giving her security clearance.

And then shortly before we left and it totally blew up, that`s when

Cipollone and/or Herschmann and whoever the other young man was said you

can name her whatever you want to name her, and no one`s going to pay any

attention to it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How did he respond? How did the president respond to


POWELL: Something like you see what I deal with. I deal with this all the


RASKIN: Over the ensuing days, no further steps were taken to appoint

Sidney Powell, but there is some ambiguity about what the president

actually said and did during the meeting. Here is how Pat Cipollone

described it.

CIPOLLONE: I don`t know what her understanding of whether she had been

appointed, what she had been appointed to, OK? In my view, she hadn`t been

appointed to anything and ultimately wasn`t appointed to anything, because

there had to be other steps taken. And that was my view when I left the

meeting. But she may have a different view, and others may have a different

view, and the president may have a different view.

CHENEY: Were any steps taken, including the president himself telling her

she`d been appointed?

CIPOLLONE: Again, I`m not going to get into what the president said in the

meeting. You know, my recollection is you`re not appointed even -- you`re

not appointed until steps are taken to get the paperwork done, get -- and

when I left the meeting, OK -- I guess -- I guess what I`m trying to say is

I`m not going to get into what the president said or want -- said he


RASKIN: Mr. Cipollone, when the matter continued to flare up over the next

several days, was it your understanding that Sidney Powell was still

seeking an appointment or that she was asserting that she had been

appointed by the president at the December 18 meeting?

CIPOLLONE: You know, now that you mention it, probably both, you know, in

terms of like I think she was --- I think she may have been of the view

that she had been appointed and was seeking to, you know, get that done,

and that she should be appointed.

MADDOW: He did it. This is echoing for you because in a previous January 6

hearing, we learned that Trump actually tried to fire the Attorney General

and appoint this guy, Jeff Clark, to take over the Justice Department. He

didn`t just, you know, think about doing it or argue for it. He actually

did it. In White House Call Logs, Jeffrey Clark started to be described as

the Acting Attorney General because Trump did try to install him.

Now, we learned there`s another. Trump actually went ahead and did it as

well when it comes to Sidney Powell. We previously known that he talked

about making her special counsel. It had been suggested to him. Now we know

he ordered that she would have the job of Special Counsel. And the only

reason it didn`t come to pass. It wasn`t effectuated in our lives, is

because White House official -- White House officials apparently refused to

act on his order, which is an astonishing thing in the history of the U.S.


But it`s only one that we learned about today. There`s more. Stay with us.


RASKIN: One user asked is the 6th D-Day? Is that why Trump wants everyone

there? Another asserted Trump just told us all to come armed. Fucking A,

this is happening. A third took it even further. It will be wild means we

need volunteers for the firing squad.