Guest: Arlene Ellis Schipper, Frank Piazza, Wendy Murphy, Beth Holloway
Twitty, Jossy Mansur, Art Wood, Anh Tran, Alan Charles Kors, Lauren Lake,
Jim Hunsaker, Benny Smith, Frank Warren
RITA COSBY, HOST: And good evening, everybody. Tonight, for the first time, we're seeing a videotape of an interview with one of the prime suspects in the Natalee Holloway case. But the big question is, what does he say and what will it mean for the case?
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
JAMIE SKEETERS, POLYGRAPH EXPERT: And the question I'll ask you is, if you intentionally killed her.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COSBY: And shocking video of a sky-high rescue. Believe it or not, there were people on that scaffolding high above the streets. One of the daring rescuers is going to join me live.
But first, we begin with some big breaking news just in to MSNBC just a few minutes ago. Jurors have voted just a few minutes ago to recommend death for Joseph Smith. He's the man caught on tape abducting 11-year-old Carlie Brucia and then killing her last year. NBC's Ron Mott has been following this breaking story, and he joins us with the latest. Ron, what happened?
RON MOTT, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Hi, there, Rita. Good evening to you. Well, the jury recommended with a vote of 10 to 2 that Joseph Smith be put to death. And of course, this is an advisory recommendation to the court. Judge—Judge Owens will actually make that call some time next month, when he has scheduled a hearing on that matter.
But this ends what for a lot of people was a disturbing, disturbing crime that this week, during this penalty phase, Joseph Smith's attorney tried to offer up some mitigating factors that perhaps would lead this jury to vote in the opposite direction and to vote for life imprisonment without the possibility of parole. They brought in a number of witnesses, some of his distant relatives, along with a minister, also a corrections officer that talks about his behavior in prison and whether he would be a danger to the folks in that population.
Now, the jury obviously did not believe that those mitigating factors outweighed the aggravating factors of this crime that were laid out by the prosecutor in this case in the penalty phase this week. Now, going forward,, Joseph Smith now has to depend on this judge to make the decision. He can go with the jury's recommendation or downgrade this, perhaps, Rita, to life imprisonment. We'll have to wait and see.
COSBY: All right, Ron. Thank you very much. Keep us posted.
Now to the tale of the tapes in the Natalee Holloway case, the controversy surrounding the Deepak Kalpoe interview and what he did or did not say about the night that the 18-year-old Alabama teen disappeared. At issue, whether or not Deepak Kalpoe admitted that all three suspects had sex with Natalee the night that she vanished. Here's what the original statement from polygraph examiner Jamie Skeeters sounds like.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
SKEETERS: I'm sure she had sex with all of you and (INAUDIBLE)
DEEPAK KALPOE, SUSPECT IN NATALEE HOLLOWAY DISAPPEARANCE: She did.
You'd be surprised how simple it was.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COSBY: And now this is what Aruban officials sent us late today.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
SKEETERS: I'm sure she had sex with all of you and (INAUDIBLE)
KALPOE: No, she didn't. You'd be surprised how simple it would have been.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COSBY: Obviously, a big difference.
And LIVE AND DIRECT tonight on the phone from Aruba is Arlene Ellis Schipper. She's an Aruban attorney and also member of the Aruban Strategic Communications Task Force. She sent us that tape. Arlene, what is the basis for the manipulation? Where do you think the changes took place, if at all?
ARLENE ELLIS SCHIPPER, ARUBAN STRATEGIC COMM. TASK FORCE: Well, it's not what I think, it is what the Dutch forensic institute thinks and what we have also requested the FBI to confirm, which confirmation we haven't received yet. However, the NFI had four investigators separately look at these tapes, and they say that the Dr. Phil show tapes were edited for content in the following order. Just before the word “she,” there was a cut. And just after the word “did,” there was a cut. And then they compared it to the CD-ROM that Mr. Skeeters sent the officials, and you have seen that piece, and it says, “No, she didn't.” And he shakes his head while doing—while saying that.
COSBY: Now, you mentioned, Arlene, that the FBI—we know that they also have the tape. When do you think you're going to hear back from them? And do you think that they're going to make their results public?
SCHIPPER: I hope so, actually. And you know what? Because officially, of course, the court-appointed forensic institute is the NFI, the Netherlands. But for comfort, the authorities here sent it also for your comfort, actually, your American comfort—the authorities also sent it to the FBI with—through an MLAT (ph) procedure, which is a mutual—just mutual legal assistance treaty between our countries.
And they also requested, on recommendation of the NFI, to investigate the hard disk of Mr. Skeeters. And based on that, he volunteered his hard disk. So we are waiting already for two weeks on those results.
COSBY: And we'll be watching closely. Arlene, stick with us because I want to get voice analyst in here. This is an expert who can talk about a little bit about the tape and also the dispute. Frank Piazza is the president and founder of Legal Audio.
Frank, before we get to you, though, I want to play these two clips back again to the public. Again, one is from polygraph examiner Jamie Skeeters. The other was sent us late today from Aruban officials.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
SKEETERS: I'm sure she had sex with all of you and (INAUDIBLE)
KALPOE: She did. You'd be surprised how simple it was.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
SKEETERS: I'm sure she had sex with all of you and (INAUDIBLE)
KALPOE: No, she didn't. You'd be surprised how simple it would have been.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COSBY: You know, Frank, you've listened to the tapes. What do you hear?
FRANK PIAZZA, LEGAL AUDIO Well, I have to say that the version that you just played me—I'm not sure if it's the Aruba version or the original...
COSBY: We played both. We actually played both.
PIAZZA: OK. The original version, which we'll say is Mr. Skeeters's version, and the Aruba version, they both, for me, as I analyzed them earlier, are exactly the same. There's no changes. Yet the Dr. Phil version, there are absolute edits. And Arlene Ellis Schipper was accurate about the “did” and the “didn't” part of it. That's my take on it so far.
COSBY: So your take, Frank, is that the actual—the originals, in terms of the actual tape that Jamie Skeeters did and then also the tape that the Arubans have—that's the same. But it was when it was edited and put on the Dr. Phil show, that's when you say that there were significant changes?
PIAZZA: Absolutely, yes. That is my opinion. Yes.
COSBY: Walk us through—you go through a computer—I think people are fascinated how you determine this. I understand we've got some shots of a computer. Sort of walk us through the process that you do.
PIAZZA: Well, the process, at least the fast fix that I did when I got here earlier at your studios, was I lined up the top—the blue wave form with the green wave form, the blue one being the Aruba, the green one being the original or the Skeeters file. And as you can see, you can see there are lumps and graphs (ph) drawn. And they line up absolutely. They're perfectly aligned.
The Dr. Phil version below in red really—it's changed. You can see it. It's shorter in length, the sections we were working with. So you know, just visually, can tell right off the bat there's something is not right with the Dr. Phil, as compared to the other two, which do line up.
COSBY: And now, Frank, you're saying something much more significant because a lot of times in television, you cut things for time because you're limited on time.
PIAZZA: Sure.
COSBY: What you're saying is that significant key words and inferences were dropped out that altered the whole meaning of it, right?
PIAZZA: Well, my opinion is that it was sensationalized, yes. The Dr. Phil version was—you know, it filled with music and it had hype. And really, the raw playback is quite different.
COSBY: Real quick, did Deepak seem relaxed? Does he seem at ease? Does there seem any stress on his voice? Is there anything with the intonation you can gauge?
PIAZZA: He seemed absolutely normal, not stressed, not overly relaxed. It just seemed like a normal interview, and he seemed in control of the interview while it was happening.
COSBY: All right, Frank, stick with us, if you could, because of course, despite the alleged differences in these tapes, what impact, everyone's asking, could it have on any type of prosecution? What do you make of all of this? Even though all three suspects have been released, could they eventually face rape charges? There were some allegations of that early on.
Joining me now is former prosecutor Wendy Murphy. And we still have with us live on the phone from Aruba Arlene Ellis Schipper.
You know, Wendy, as we're hearing this—and I don't know if—did you hear what Frank Piazza was saying? Frank was basically saying...
WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: I did.
COSBY: ... that there may be a difference in the intonation, whether did or didn't. That's very significant, if that's the case. What does that mean in terms of the charges, though?
MURPHY: Well, look, if he really said he didn't do it and they didn't all have sex with her, then I think it significantly diminishes the chance that the authorities in Aruba can prosecute them all for rape, which I was hopeful they could do that because, among other things, it gives them leverage to pressure, I think, the Kalpoe brothers to turn on Joran. I mean, nobody wants to go to prison for rape, and so maybe they'd trade on that. I don't know. I was hoping that might happen.
But you know what's funny, Rita? I'm looking at the language. I'm not an expert in terms of the computer stuff, it doesn't make sense that he would have been denying that they all had sex with her because he said, “You'd be surprised how easy it was.” You wouldn't say that if you were saying she didn't. It just doesn't make linguistic sense. And then he called her a slut in essentially the same sentence. That's not something you say when you're describing that someone didn't have sex with all of you.
So I think from a purely common-sense perspective, there's still a healthy argument that it may well be he was acknowledging that, in fact, they did all have sex with her. And the use of the word “she didn't” could have been responsive to what he thought—how he thought the question was being phrased, as opposed to saying it didn't happen.
COSBY: That's a good point. In fact, Dave Holloway has heard all the tapes. He said he heard the whole thing last night. And he said he believes that they are—that Deepak's saying that they did all have sex with her, especially if you hear the whole tape in context.
Let me play a portion—I want to play a portion—this is Deepak basically mocking the investigators. And I'm going to get Arlene to respond. This is Deepak on the tape, more of that tape unedited. Let's listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
KALPOE: They want to arrest us again, they can because (INAUDIBLE) my alibi on that Sunday. The more they screw up, the better for me. And I want them to arrest me again. I'm waiting on them. Because the more they screw up, the more we're going to hit them like a bag (ph) of bricks.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COSBY: You know, Arlene, what do you make of that? I don't know if you heard it, but...
SCHIPPER: Well, Rita, this is...
COSBY: ... let me read you a little quote. He says—he says, “The more they screw up, the better for me. I want them to arrest me again. I'm going to hit them like a bag of bricks.” He's making fun of your investigators.
SCHIPPER: You know, Rita, the reason why we have focused on this piece, why we brought to your attention that it was edited, is not—and I repeat—I said it yesterday also—is not that we want to get this guy off the hook. He remains the prime suspect, one of the prime suspects.
However, the reason why we're focusing on it is because the Dr. Phil show used it to set a scene for a call for a boycott of our island because they accused the authorities, while having clear evidence, not to rearrest, willfully not to rearrest the Kalpoes. And this is the problem. And on the basis of that, they asked for a boycott. It is not about us saying he's not a suspect. The police wants you to know that he remains one of the prime suspects and he's scheduled to be interrogated again.
COSBY: Wendy, what do you say?
MURPHY: No, come on! Who cares what Dr. Phil wants in terms of a boycott! It's Natalee's mother, Beth Twitty, who called for the boycott successfully and I think is doing the right thing in continuing to do that. Look, economic sanctions work when governments do bad things, and what she's been concerned about since day one was corruption and cover-up. She doesn't care about these tapes one way or the other. She's been angry for a long time, even before this Dr. Phil stuff came out.
And you know, for anybody to think that this boycott is a bad thing, even though some innocent people in Aruba may suffer because the industry there, the service industry, people need the money, 90 percent of the economy is based tourism—well, I'll tell you something. In other countries, when we don't like them, they're doing human rights violations and so on, we do it all the time. We sanction with carrots and sticks. We reward. We—it's called diplomacy! This is what we do when we dislike the injustices that happen in other countries! Get used to it, Aruba! It's going to happen! And it's Beth Twitty, not Dr. Phil, who's going to make it happen!
COSBY: Let me bring in Frank Piazza, because Frank, what impact do you think this tape is going to have at all, Frank? Do you think—are you clear on your decision, or is it one of these things you think we're going to be analyzing this for a long time to come?
PIAZZA: I'm personally clear. It's my opinion. And you know, I had time to spend on it, and it was pretty obvious to me early on that the Dr. Phil version was very different from the other versions. You know, whether or not it plays out in courts or it has legs, I can't even predict that.
COSBY: Well, we'll have to see. Everybody, thank you very much.
And still ahead, of course, the questions about the Aruba mystery that you want answered. We have gotten hundreds upon hundreds of e-mails, and our guests are going to answer them next. We're also going to have Beth Holloway Twitty is coming up.
Still ahead: lewd and nude. Wait until you find out who's in hot water over this steamy photo of two people getting busy up against their window. Was it really a private moment or a public display?
And an eyewitness who saw this going on above his head reached for his cell phone not to call 911 but to catch the whole thing on his camera phone. The eyewitness and a rescuer are coming up.
Plus: Would you ever tell your deepest, darkest secret to a total stranger? Wait until you see the shocking things people are willing to confess and how they're doing it. That's all ahead on LIVE AND DIRECT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
KALPOE: (INAUDIBLE) public so that the public (INAUDIBLE) what they have on us. Not even a fingerprint. Not a hair, nothing. They won't do it because they know. And then Beth goes home with all her critical remarks and this and this, calling me a criminal on TV!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And that's from that unedited tape of Jamie Skeeters and Deepak Kalpoe, the tape that we just got in today. You can see it was pointing towards the hotel room because it wasn't capturing a picture of him. But that's from the actual tape itself. We wanted to show it to you as it is.
Well, there are so many questions in the Natalee Holloway mystery, and many of you are demanding answers. So tonight, we're going to be working for you, as always. Joining me now is the editor of Aruba's “Diario” newspaper, our pal, Jossy Mansur. Also, private investigator Art Wood and Natalee Holloway's mom, Beth Holloway Twitty is also with us. And back with us is Aruban attorney Arlene Ellis Schipper.
Beth, I want to start with you because, you know, as you hear Deepak talking about no evidence, no fingerprints, how frustrating is it for to you hear about the lack of evidence in this case, especially according to Deepak?
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY'S MOTHER: Well, of course, it's very frustrating. You know, the entire investigation, that's all we've had is frustration coming out of the officials from Aruba. You know, evidence—you know when evidence is gathered and lost or evidence is never gathered when it's supposed to be, just (INAUDIBLE) the primary residence of Paulus Van Der Sloot was never searched—I mean, you know, it just can't help but raise all the questions of—and leave us frustrated. Absolutely, Rita.
COSBY: You know, there's a lot of clips that came in, Beth, but I want to get your reaction to this because a lot of people are frustrated to hear this, Deepak talking basically about maybe making some money off this, maybe a movie, maybe a book deal. Take a listen, Beth, if you could. I want to get your reaction.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
KALPOE: (INAUDIBLE) They say write a book. Explain everything in the book. Give it to a publisher. You'll have a pretty good sum of money.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COSBY: I don't know if you heard that, Beth, but, Give it to a publisher. I can make a pretty good sum of money. How disgusted are you to hear that?
TWITTY: Oh, you know, Rita, not only hearing that, but I actually saw it come across someone's Blackberry, a reporter, where Deepak was saying that he wanted $250,000 in a book or a movie deal. You know, and I had to see it, like I said, come across a reporter's Blackberry. Deepak's been reaching out to various reporters in the United States since early on.
COSBY: Trying to make money off, unfortunately, your misfortune, which is disgusting.
I want to get some e-mails to all of you because we have asked folks to send in e-mails. We have literally gotten hundreds upon hundreds in the last 24 hours.
And this one is for Jossy. I'm going to have you answer this. This is from Ruth Bender from Pasco, Washington, asks, “Joran's father provided a line of credit, drove his son to gambling, gambled and drank with him in casinos. Why didn't they (INAUDIBLE) you know, the police, of course, investigate the father's involvement with giving assistance to his son's illegal activities?” Jossy?
JOSSY MANSUR, MANAGING EDITOR, “DIARIO”: Well, that's one question that the police will have to answer or the prosecution.
COSBY: Do you know if they ever looked into it, Jossy? Do (INAUDIBLE) because he did have this big line of credit down there at the Excelsior.
MANSUR: Well, it's been rumored that they do have that line of credit. I don't know whether there's any evidence to that fact, though. I mean, I've heard the story also, and I know that they gambled in there. I know that the father with the underaged kid gambled together in the casino, the Excelsior casino at the Holiday Inn. But whether there was a line of credit of that amount, I don't know. I cannot prove it.
COSBY: You know, Arlene, a viewer wrote this because you were on our show last night, as you know. A viewer wrote this specifically, this question, for you. It's from K.J. It says, “Paul Van Der Sloot supposedly told his son and both Kalpoe brothers, No body, no crime. What can Arlene Ellis Schipper say about this?” Arlene?
SCHIPPER: That is incorrect. There have been cases in the Netherlands that without a body, someone has been convicted for murder. Actually, it was called—you can Google it, the Angelique (INAUDIBLE) case. And that was—so that is an incorrect statement.
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: But the question is, Arlene, he said it, from what we understand, right?
SCHIPPER: Oh, I'm sorry. OK, if that was the question, this is part of the court documents, which is not—I don't have access to the file. I also heard that he said that. I cannot confirm that for you because I don't have access to the file.
COSBY: But Arlene, you understand why people are so infuriated because why do you say that to your son if nothing happened?
SCHIPPER: I agree.
COSBY: It sounds very suspicious. You understand that.
SCHIPPER: Of course, and I agree, if he would have said that, that is suspicious. But that does not—this is the problem—and I think we're talking in...
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Arlene, I don't want to argue the merits of the case. I just...
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: ... he said it, and it sounds suspicious.
SCHIPPER: Well, of course. But the thing is, it's not an argument whether he sounds suspicious or not. It's an argument whether you can legally prove that someone did something or not.
COSBY: Right. But you understand on the surface, the question...
SCHIPPER: Of course.
COSBY: Beth, let me move on to you because this is an e-mail from (INAUDIBLE) from California. “I feel that if the chaperones had done their jobs, Natalee might have returned home safely with her fellow students. Where are they? And where were they when Natalee partying with strange boys?” Beth?
TWITTY: Well, you know, Natalee is 18 years of age, Rita. She had every right to be a patron in the establishment of Carlos and Charlie's. You know, Deepak and Satish and Joran Van Der Sloot—you know, it shouldn't cost a young girl her life, you know, for what they have done. I mean, you know, the chaperones are there. They're not there to hover over them. I mean, you know, these kids, like I said, they're of legal age. And she should have been in Carlos and Charlie's.
COSBY: Yes, as many kids enjoy vacations do, Beth. I agree on that point.
Art, let me bring you in. Hopefully, you can answer this one. This is about the boycott. “Isn't there some way to petition the State Department to issue a warning to travelers about the danger of going to Aruba? How does the American public approach this if they want to do sort of comprehensive effort? Is there anything the American public can do?” This is from Phyllis Lisowski—I hope I'm pronouncing her name right—from Prairie Village, Kansas. Art, is there anything that—can there be some sort of—some massive cry to the State Department?
ART WOOD, FORMER SECRET SERVICE AGENT: Absolutely. Absolutely. There's a lot that Americans can do through the State Department. I want to remind everybody that Natalee Holloway was a U.S. citizen. Once the Aruban authorities are done investigating this case, the FBI can still conduct an investigation, and they could extradite these suspects to the United States. Let me point out that there's a ton of circumstantial evidence in this case to convict these kids. I want to tell you there's more circumstantial evidence in this case than there was in the Scott Peterson case.
Secondly, it's very important here, that the Arubans, if they want out of this economic boycott, all they have to do is to invite the FBI in as—to participate in this investigation. They have never done that. They have refused to allow FBI access to the investigative reports and evidence in this case. And if they have nothing to hide, let them invite the FBI in.
COSBY: All right. Let me go Shauna Patterson. This is from Clarksburg, West Virginia. This is an e-mail that we have. This is about the boat captain, the deejay. “I think the boat captain that was questioned and released should be requestioned. So many things in this Natalee Holloway case have been botched. Why not this guy?” Jossy, what happened to this guy?
MANSUR: I don't know. He went back to his work. He (INAUDIBLE) over to the ship, the (INAUDIBLE) tourist ship close to the coast.
COSBY: But Jossy, isn't there a sense that maybe he knows a lot more than he's saying? I'll tell you, when I was down there, a lot of people thought, This is weird. First he lies and pretends like he knows them. Then he says he doesn't. Then, apparently, it sounds like may know them more than he's admitted.
MANSUR: Well, if I answer the question, then it would be just speculation or an opinion of mine, no? I don't think that the police just let go of him. I think he's still a person of interest to the police.
COSBY: Let me go to Art. Art, what do you think about Steve Croes, the boat deejay?
WOOD: Well, first of all, you know, the tape that you're playing, the excerpts of this tape from Jamie Skeeters—Deepak Kalpoe on that tape, he admits to the fact that him and Steven Croes are friends, that they're not just acquaintances. He has—he tells Jamie that he has Steven Croes's telephone number programmed into his cell phone..
So let me tell you, yes, Steven Croes is still a suspect. But that's why this case could be solved, Rita. The reason this case could still be solved is because there are so many people involved in Natalee's disappearance and in the disposal of her body. When somebody talks, they're going to all go down. This is like a house of cards.
COSBY: And Beth, I want to ask you, because there's some reference,
you and I were talking, about a boat, another friend with a boat. And this
· I had not heard this before, Beth. Tell us about, there was some
reference that wasn't followed up on, right?
TWITTY: Yes, there was a boat that Joran mentioned in one of his statements on June 9. It's actually a friend of his. It's Coon's (ph) father has a boat. And from what I'd understood, that there was some activity with that boat during the early morning hours of May 30, when these boys took Natalee. To what extent, we don't know. Whether forensics were done, whether the boat was searched, there's been a lot of speculation, but I really don't have any concrete follow-up information of what they actually did to the Coon's father's boat.
WOOD: Rita, I can tell you something about Coon's father's boat.
COSBY: Yes, real quick. Real quick, Art.
WOOD: OK. First of all, Dave Holloway and I begged the police down there to bring him Coon in and question him. And they haven't done it yet. And he lied the first time that he talked to the police. To solve these cases, just follow the lies, Rita.
COSBY: No, that's a very big—let me get one more question in. And we will definitely follow up on that Coon case, as you just talked about, both of you. Beth, this is a question for you, and this is an interesting one because a lot of people are asking this. Carol Brown from Tallico Plains, Tennessee, is asking, “What happened with the girls who were going to come forward and testify that they had been raped by Van Der Sloot and his pals?” Beth, do you know what happened? Were they pressured? What happened to them?
TWITTY: Well, those girls were coming forward, and they were meeting with attorneys and giving their statements to the authorities in front of their attorneys. It seemed as if once the suspects were released, I don't know if someone was able to get to these young girls and to have them retract these statements or if they became fearful of—you know, that they had given this information. I don't know, Rita, but it was very suspicious how the girls were coming forward and then all of a sudden had retracted their statements.
COSBY: Yes, it was very interesting because it sounded like they were coming forward from a lot of folks on both sides, so I agree with you. All of you, thank you so much. We're going to follow up on a lot of this stuff. And all of you at home, please keep sending us your e-mails. We have gotten so many. We appreciate all of them, and we will continue to follow this case so much.
Up next: postal porn. A clever entrepreneur has found yet another way for to you get porn delivered into your home. But is anyone buying it?
And who should be in more trouble for this picture, the people naked in the window or the guy who took it? The answer is going to surprise you. It's coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: Well, you will be happy or horrified to hear this. There's a new way that you can get porn delivered right into your home. Pornography is a $10 billion a year industry. And Americans spend as much money on porn as they do going to the movies.
So you would think a mail-order that delivers adult DVDs to your door would be a smash hit? Well, not quite yet. We're joined by Anh Tran. He is the co-founder of Wantedlist.com, otherwise known as the Netflix of porn.
Anh, how does this work? It's really a business. You deliver it to the homes, right?
ANH TRAN, WANTEDLIST.COM: Pretty much.
COSBY: How does that work?
TRAN: Pretty much, customers go online. They join up for a membership account. They pick the movies they want for a low monthly fee of, like, $17.95 a month. And we just send them as much adult movies as they want.
When they're done with the movies, they send them back to us. Postage is paid both ways. And it's kind of like one of these rotating effect things. You know, we send the movies. They send it back. We send them more.
COSBY: Porn business is $10 billion a year. Video rental industry, I'm reading, $8 billion a year. How profitable is your business at this point?
TRAN: Well, our business right now, we're putting all of our money back into the company. I mean, we could make a profit...
COSBY: So you haven't made money yet, is what you're trying to say in a polite way?
TRAN: Yes, because we want to grow the company. I mean, companies—we're only four years old. So, right now, we see a really great growth stage for the company. So you've got to just reinvest all of your money back into the company.
COSBY: How many customers do you have?
TRAN: We're seeing around, you know, 25,000-plus customers right now.
COSBY: What about women versus men? Because what I've heard—very few women actually, you know, are purchasing and involved in—you know, not their performance in porn, but in terms of purchasing playing a role. What, it's like 5 percent?
TRAN: It's about 5 percent as the average person, the average number of women that go into an actual video store or who buy from other types of sites.
COSBY: And how about at your place?
TRAN: At our site, it's 20 percent.
COSBY: And why do you think it's higher? Because that's a big percentage difference.
TRAN: Well, because I think what we provide is a very safe and anonymous way for people to get their adult movies. And we do this outside of the video store, with, you know, the prying eyes of other people looking over your shoulders. You know, this is the anonymity of being at home on your couch, at your computer, ordering movies without worrying about what anybody else says.
COSBY: Now, how do you know you're not selling to minors? Because people can say some kid is buying them, so, you know you're not, you know, selling to inappropriate...
TRAN: There are a lot of different ways we scrub our type of data to prevent minors from being able to get movies from our site. One, you have to have a credit card. And, two, we go through a credit card scrubbing system, which is another layer that looks for people who are 18 years of age or older.
So, I mean, there are a lot of different steps—I mean, there are a lot of different steps we take to ensure that, you know, minors don't, you know, even get to the site, let alone are able to order from the site itself.
COSBY: What about obscenity laws, too? Because I would imagine that that's sort of a hot button issue for you?
TRAN: Oh, yes, absolutely. I mean, there are definitely places that we stay away from. And there are definitely different types of movies that we stay away from, as well. We don't ship to states like Tennessee, Alabama, most of Utah, northern Florida, West Virginia, those type of states where we really don't want to upset the local prosecutor or even upset the local communities who find porn to be obscene.
COSBY: They're much more sensitive states, is that what you're saying?
TRAN: Yes, they're much more sensitive. And we can respect that, because we know...
COSBY: But how do you determine what's appropriate and what's not appropriate? It's porn. Come on.
TRAN: Very expensive lawyers.
(LAUGHTER)
COSBY: How do they? What is sort of the barometer?
TRAN: Well, I guess they've got a pulse on the communities. I mean, they're paid the big bucks to go around to different communities to find out what people are trying—you know, what communities, how communities feel about certain types of hot issues.
And they come back to us with certain types of lists. And we abide by those lists of areas that are hot areas, so we don't need to ship movies out towards.
COSBY: Anh Tran, thank you very much. Interesting business.
(LAUGHTER)
TRAN: Thank you.
COSBY: Thank you very much.
And onto another story. One Ivy League student is in a steamy controversy tonight over some compromising photos. Take a look. It's two people apparently having sex in the front of a window inside a dorm at the University of Pennsylvania.
Anh, would that be in one of your videos? That would be appropriate, right? Anh's saying yes, OK.
But they're not the ones in hot water. The U-Penn student who shot pictures just like these and posted them on his personal Web site was facing sexual harassment charges.
But late tonight—we just got this just before the show—the university has decided to drop all the charges against him. Joining me live is the student's adviser, Alan Charles Kors, and also defense attorney Lauren Lake.
I would imagine, Alan, that you're happy with the decision. Were you surprised that he was even facing charges?
ALAN CHARLES KORS, STUDENT'S ADVISER: Well, it's astonishing that he was facing charges.
COSBY: Why's that?
KORS: He photographed a public event. You have a right to photograph a public event. The people pressing up against the window in broad daylight, over a public walkway opposite a dorm, making love standing up by a window do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy. They have chosen not to be private.
COSBY: Lauren? Let me bring in Lauren. Lauren, what do you think?
LAUREN LAKE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I completely disagree. I believe that, if you're in a private intimate act, maybe in the heat of it, they didn't realize that they were in front of the window in broad daylight. Who knows?
But the bottom line is, Rita, this university had a right to reprimand this young man, because, if you want to expose someone's extra curricular activity, expose your own. Why do you have to put other people's sexual business on a university's Internet server? That's inappropriate. And I think it's wrong for them to allow students to do that without any type of reprimanding.
COSBY: You know what, Alan? She brings up a good point, maybe not necessarily the issue of taking the photo, but the fact that he distributed the on the school's Web site. It's a private school. Shouldn't they have control over what goes on their system?
KORS: The University of Pennsylvania is a private school that has promised its students, both by the action of the board of trustees and by the office of the president, it has promised its students the same constitutional protections that students would have at a public university.
Students at the University of Pennsylvania may not have as good a football team as Penn State, but they have the same rights of freedom of expression.
LAKE: But I'm sure they...
KORS: The photograph was taken of a public event. Children were walking passed there.
Let me give you a little mind game to play. If that had been a fraternity house and that had been a male fraternity member exposing himself for his own satisfaction in front of a visible, public place, and a woman had taken a photograph of that, she would be the hero and the person engaged in indecent public conduct would be the person in hot water.
COSBY: Lauren, what do you stay that?
KORS: The double standard in this is extraordinary.
LAKE: Well, what I say to that is the reasonable expectation of privacy is determined on a case-by-case basis. And this is not a fraternity house. And these people were not fraternity boys.
And the bottom line is, is the university, as a private university, also promises its students that it will not be humiliated and harassed by other students that have nothing better to do than to post intimate encounters of them on the Internet.
COSBY: Lauren, let me just—both of you, let me...
LAKE: I think that they also promise their students that.
COSBY: ... let me interrupt, because we've already seen some details that apparently this happened a few days in a row, this sort of, quote, “public display.” And we're not even sure if all of these photos are this particular student's, because apparently so many people took photos of this, you know, unfortunate act here.
Does that make it different, Lauren, that it was so public, that a lot of people saw it, and it was repeatedly?
LAKE: No, it doesn't make a difference to me. Because as we already said, even if the reasonable expectation of privacy goes up in the air, and they have the right to shoot the photo, I believe the private institution has a right to say that you will not use our server to distribute it.
And what I don't understand is, is why these students feel it's necessary to harass and humiliate these people. Take their own tapes and distribute those. I don't see that happening.
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Alan, I'll give you the last response. Alan, you got to admit it is in bad taste, at least to distribute it on the Web.
KORS: The only harassment in this case and the only act of bad taste was public lovemaking that people couldn't avoid walking down a public walkway, including children. That is a newsworthy event. In fact, it's a crime.
You're allowed to photograph newsworthy events. You're allowed to photograph crimes. And the university does not have the right...
(CROSSTALK)
KORS: ... the university has no right to tell people you cannot expose wrongdoing and life at the University of Pennsylvania. They dropped the charges the minute the media started asking them questions.
COSBY: That's it, guys. We've got to go.
Lauren, I am going to give you three seconds, literally.
LAKE: Well, when you photograph a crime, take it to the police, don't put it on the Internet.
COSBY: OK, that's going to have to be the last word.
KORS: He was very kind not to take it to the police.
COSBY: And you both have been very kind to be here. Thank you very much.
KORS: My pleasure.
COSBY: Still ahead, everybody, you won't believe what deep, dark secrets some people are willing to write down on a post card and mail to a total stranger. We're going to read some of them, and you're going to meet the man who's been receiving them.
And you'll also meet a man who helped pull some window washers from this high-rise horror. It is coming up. It is incredible to see this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They were going 911. And so, as soon as that happened, we ran to the phone and we called the police. And then they transferred us to the fire department.
But I'm still shooken up just watching all that happen. I mean, they were flying from one end to the scaffold to the other, just back and- forth, just hitting windows and everything. It was so freaky. It was scary.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Well, talk about a hard day's work. And it's all caught by Cosby.
Two window washers in downtown Denver had a whirlwind ending to their day. Twelve stories above the city street, the workers whipped around on the scaffold for about 10 minutes in extremely windy conditions. Brave firefighters arrived on the scene to pull them safely back into the building.
Joining me now is Jim Hunsaker with the Denver Fire Department and Benny Smith, who witnessed the event.
Benny, tell us what you saw.
BENNY SMITH, WITNESSED RESCUE: It was amazing. Just seeing the footage, one of my co-workers, David Ball (ph), called me over to the window and said, “You've got to take a look at this.”
And as soon as I went over to the window, it was just chaos. These two guys were hanging onto the side of the scaffolding for dear life. And as soon as he let go of one side of it, it picked up. It pulled him about 45 feet off of the base of the window, flipped him around 180 degrees, put him back against one side of the window, and that just kept on going back and forth and back and forth for a good five to ten minutes. It was intense. It was incredible.
COSBY: You know, and I understand we've got some video from your cell phone that you were able to capture. Let's see if we can show that.
SMITH: Right.
COSBY: What was that like? I mean, you must have just been—here it is. This is amazing. Were you just horrified at what you were seeing?
SMITH: At first, I just didn't believe what I was seeing. And then, once I realized, I was like, “Maybe I should grab my phone,” and went over and grabbed my cell phone, and just saw all of this take place. And at one time, when I was looking at one of the guys, he looked right at me. And it just looked like he was just in hell. He didn't know what to do.
COSBY: Were you calling 911 or trying to get help, too?
SMITH: There was a lot of our co-workers that were dialing 911. They were really quick to be responsive for that. Yes, it was amazing.
COSBY: It is amazing.
You know, Jim, tell us how the department sort of finally brought these guys to safety. How did they get down, Jim?
JIM HUNSAKER, DENVER FIRE DEPARTMENT: Well, this was really a big team effort, right from the dispatchers onto the point where they pulled the workers off the scaffold.
Four companies responded to this with a district chief. And two of the companies, or actually three of the companies, went up inside while one of the companies directed operations from the street.
They counted the number of stories. They sent troops up there to that floor. And basically, they were moving back and forth on that floor, waiting for the opportunity that finally did present itself. The scaffolding poked through one of the windows, almost perpendicular to the building. And two of the firefighters grabbed the end of the scaffolding.
They really didn't have time to tie in, because of the time constraints here. And so, when they did that, other firefighters were behind them and held onto them and kept them from being pulled out of the window, if that scaffolding was to take off again.
COSBY: I mean, you know, Benny, when you saw this whole thing, how long did the whole thing last? And did you see the rescuers afterwards by any chance?
SMITH: Oh yes, we saw it from start to finish. It lasted about 10 minutes. I mean, the fire crew, they were there within minutes.
And afterwards, I mean, just seeing the—just seeing the glass fall from the windows and, you know, the scaffolding still banging around, it was a sight to see. I mean, those poor guys, they were in for the ride of their life. And with that, I just—I was amazed. I was truly amazed to see that that was happening right across the street from my work.
COSBY: Your jaw must have dropped. Thank goodness those two guys are safe.
SMITH: Oh, yes.
COSBY: Both of you, thank you very much.
SMITH: Thank goodness.
COSBY: We appreciate it.
SMITH: Thank you for having us.
COSBY: Thank you.
And there's still a lot more coming up right here on MSNBC tonight. Let's check in with our pals, Joe Scarborough for a preview, and also Tucker Carlson.
Of course, Joe, the moral is, don't be a window washer, right?
JOE SCARBOROUGH, MSNBC HOST: Oh my gosh, I'll tell you what. Yes, no doubt about it.
I'll tell you, Rita, tonight we're going to be talking about the war on Christmas. Obviously, there's been a lot of talk about this over the past several years. The ACLU has been fighting to get Christmas out of the holiday season, in public squares and also in private shops.
Right now, there are Christians who are fighting back, 1,600 lawyers going out to try to beat back the ACLU. They are making progress, in places like the city of Boston, the U.S. Capitol, at Macy's, Lowe's, Christmas getting back into the holiday season. But again, the fight continues. We're going to be talking about it tonight and what we can expect over the holidays.
COSBY: All right. We'll be watching that in just a few minutes.
And, Tucker, what do you have on “THE SITUATION”?
TUCKER CARLSON, MSNBC HOST: Well, Long Island's school cancels the prom because there's too much sex. And a North Dakota man, completely blind, unable to see anything, gets a concealed weapons' permit from his state. And now he's complaining that the state's gun laws are too lax. He'll be joining us tonight, blind man with gun, joining us at 11:00.
COSBY: Remind me not to be in the studio. All right, guys, thank you very much. Be sure to watch, everybody, 10:00 and 11:00. Thank you, everybody.
And still ahead, cheating spouses, guilty parents, ungrateful kids. Wait until you hear some of the dark secrets people confessed and how they ended up in print. And it's all on the Internet. It's coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: So what is your deepest, darkest secret? Would you ever tell anyone what it is? Apparently, some people are willing to give up their most intimate secret, put it on a post card, and mail it to a total stranger, who then puts it on the Internet. And he now has put them into post cards, into a new book called “PostSecret.”
Joining me now is “PostSecret” creator Frank Warren. Frank, how did you come up with this idea?
FRANK WARREN, AUTHOR, “POSTSECRET”: You know, I really don't know. I'm a father. I'm a husband. I'm a small business owner. This idea, I think, maybe almost found me rather than me finding it.
COSBY: You know, the instructions are really simple. I want to read
· I think it's fascinating what you put. It says, “Your secret can be a regret. It can be a fear, a betrayal, a desire, a confession, or childhood humiliation. Reveal anything, as long as it's true and you have never shared with anyone before.”
Your blog has had a whopping 10 million hits. Are you surprised that people are actually telling strangers, someone like you, the most intimate secrets?
WARREN: I really am surprised. When I started the blog at the beginning of this year, I had a goal. I wanted to receive 365 secrets by the end of the year, and I've already received over 10,000.
COSBY: Wow. You know, a lot of them are about relationships and intimate things. Why do you think people keep these things secret and don't share them, actually, with their most intimate soul mate?
WARREN: I don't know. I think that it's a healthy thing to share secrets with a trusted family member or close friends, but I don't know if all of us have those resources in our lives. And so, for those of us that don't, maybe this presents itself as a safe place where people can share their secrets in a way, or hopefully they can find some solace and maybe help somebody else out at the same time.
COSBY: Yes, and I notice that a lot of the proceeds are going to a suicide hotline. Is it because, you know, your theme deals a lot, also, with loneliness, right?
WARREN: I do get a lot of cards about loneliness, but I do get cards that are also funny or that talk about an unseen kindness that somebody has done for somebody. It's a really, really wide range of secrets that I receive.
COSBY: You know, I want to show—you mentioned funny, because there's one—the whole staff, my whole staff, was laughing about this one. There are some funny cards, too. And this one is about staying on the job and drugs. “I stay in a job I hate because I know I won't pass a drug screen anywhere else. And I do drugs because I hate my job.”
My crew is laughing here, too. A lot of them do have a good sense of humor, right?
WARREN: Some are very funny, and some are tragic. And sometimes it's difficult to know which is which. One of my favorites came on the back of a photograph of a mirror and the mirror was framed, and there were some items tucked in the corner. And on the back...
COSBY: Yes, let's show that. In fact, I think we've got that. If we can pull up—this is your favorite one, which I thought was interesting. I was expecting a much more sort of blatant one. But explain why this is your favorite.
WARREN: Well, this one I like because, every time I read it, I don't know if it's funny or tragic, but it always sounds to me like somebody who's trying to make sense out of something in their own life and they're using this as an opportunity to face their secret on the post card and maybe physically release it in a mail box. And hopefully, they can find some therapeutic value in it.
But that secret itself, I think, is poetry.
COSBY: And, real quick—we just have about 10 seconds—your secret, are you ready to reveal it here on national television?
WARREN: It's all anonymous.
COSBY: So half of those are yours, right? Is that it?
WARREN: That's not true.
(LAUGHTER)
COSBY: All right, Frank. Thank you very much. Very interesting book.
WARREN: Thank you.
COSBY: Glad to have you on.
And we have a special celebrity delivery to report to you tonight. “US Weekly” magazine is now reporting that “Alias” star Jennifer Garner gave birth to a baby girl last night. The 33-year-old actress and her husband, actor Ben Affleck, reportedly plan to name their daughter Violet. We want to wish them all the best, and we're going to be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: And a programming note now. All next week, LIVE & DIRECT is going to be heading to Afghanistan. We're going on the road with the World Wrestling Entertainment, the WWE, for their annual Tour of Tribute. This is their tribute tour that they do every year. It's amazing stuff.
Some of the wrestlers on the tour are going to include Triple H, John Cena, Kurt Angle, Rick Flair, just to name a few. I will also look at the daily life of the U.S. troops as they fight the war on terrorism. “In the Warzone” is going to air, live from Afghanistan, wee hours of the morning there, Wednesday, December 7th, and Thursday, December 8th, 9:00 p.m. Eastern time, your regular time here.
Also, we want to take along some of your questions and your e-mails with us. If you have any questions for some of the U.S. forces in Afghanistan, be sure to send us an e-mail soon to rita@msnbc.com. Also, please make sure, if you have any questions or also any comments, we'll also make sure that we pass them first-hand to all the soldiers.
That does it for me. Let's now go to Joe Scarborough with “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY” - Joe.
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