updated 2/24/2010 2:52:32 PM ET 2010-02-24T19:52:32

Guests: Bob Reno, Judy Kuriansky, Eileen Byrne, Joe Tacopina, Tim Williams, Lisa Pinto, Lauren Lake, Kevin Dietz, Kimberly Caldwell, Carl Bell, Jeff Abercrombie

RITA COSBY, MSNBC ANCHOR, LIVE & DIRECT: Hi, Joe and good evening, everybody.  Tonight, late breaking developments in one of America‘s biggest unsolved mysteries.  The FBI right now is searching a horse farm near Detroit looking for missing teamster‘s boss Jimmy Hoffa.  Joining us with the very latest is investigative reporter Kevin Dietz with NBC affiliate WDIV.  Kevin, first of all, what led investigators to this property? What is going on?

KEVIN DIETZ, WDIV: Well, Federal agents are still on the scene tonight. They‘re securing this 85-acre horse farm tonight.  For decades, really, neighbors in this area used to joke about Jimmy Hoffa being buried on the old McMaster farm.  McMaster was a long-time associate of Hoffa.  Well, 30 years later FBI agents, about 30 or 40 of them show up with shovels and all of a sudden it is not so funny here anymore.  What led investigators to come here? That was a tip call, a new call from an informant that said that back in the day 30 years ago, that a number of associates of Jimmy Hoffa‘s and a number of long-time suspects in his disappearance used to hold secret meetings out at this farm and at the time of his disappearance, a backhoe was on the property and then was suddenly taken away just a few days later. 

COSBY: You talked Kevin about the tip from an informant.  How credible do you take it from authorities the fact that they are out there now?

DIETZ: We have been following this case for years.  I can tell you that usually when a tip call comes in like this, they might send two agents to investigate it.  They might send a team of five or six.  There‘s only been a handful of times where they really put together a team of 30 or 40 agents and immediately set out to look for something.  Some of the agents say it is quite credible, but of course they have been here before a number of times, not here at this farm, but at different locations trying to find clues in Hoffa‘s disappearance. 

COSBY: Well, please keep us posted if anything else happens, Kevin.

Please come back to us. We really appreciate it.

And now let‘s move on to another scandal that is sidelining a nationally known college sports team.  These shocking photos are circulating the Internet showing one of many female sports teams allegedly hazing each other at a party.  The women‘s soccer team at the prestigious Northwestern University is the latest group caught by their own photos, taken at a party last year, blindfolding teammates and dressing them up as part of a team initiation.  And that trend is something that many people are saying is becoming increasingly common.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A lot of my friends do post photos that I‘m sure they would not like the entire world seeing.  And it is part of the new culture I guess. 


COSBY: With us now is Bob Reno. He‘s the creator of the website badjocks.com.  He found these shocking photos and was first to publish them.  Where did you get the pictures? How did you even find them?

BOB RENO, CREATOR, WWW. BADJOCKS.COM: The pictures were on a public picture hosting site called web shots.  I was actually doing research on the Duke lacrosse case and was looking for some pictures from that, didn‘t find any.  But I did find these pictures along with thousands of others on the site. 

COSBY: When you talk about this, what are some of the most, I guess, wildest or most unusual things, surprising things you saw first on the Northwestern case, Bob?

RENO: Yeah.  The Northwestern was a little bit different.  Of course, there are some similarities to some of the other albums that we saw.  But certainly when the young women were blindfolded with their hands tied behind their backs, those pictures were a little bit different than the rest. 

COSBY: What were some of the surprising things about the other schools? 

RENO: The other schools that we have found that we have pictures of posted on the site just a variety of things. You‘ve got pictures of people passed out with their heads in buckets, people tied to posts blindfolded, heads being shaved, people passed out, just a whole variety of things that while they may happen commonly, I don‘t think in the past people have been taking pictures and posting them the way they do now. 

COSBY: That is the point too.  It is surprising I think when you see that these people would allow these pictures to be posted, allow them to be taken to begin with.  Aren‘t you surprised Bob?

RENO: I was when I first started looking, but after you‘ve gone to web shots and you‘ve seen as many of these pictures,  it is just so common, it is obviously not an issue for the generation that‘s taking them. 

COSBY: Well in fact you know the prevalence of hazing. I want to show some statistics in a recent study.  The question was, how many college students are hazed? Seventy nine percent are subjected to questionable or unacceptable initiation. Over a quarter of a million athletes report being hazed. I mean this is pretty surprising, three out of five unacceptably hazed.  Are you surprised how many of these sort of questionable hazing pictures are out there Bob?

RENO: Not anymore.  I have been working for a long time with hazing expert Dr.  Susan Lipkins (ph) and she was telling me even before I saw these pictures that these types of activities were happening.  And once we found them, it certainly confirmed what she was saying was going on and the numbers that you‘re talking about.  These are activities that are going on at virtually every school in the country and it doesn‘t matter the sport.  So it‘s out there. 

COSBY: Absolutely. Well, Bob, thank you very much.  And now let‘s bring in if we could clinical psychologist, Dr. Judy Kuriansky and also Chicago radio talk show host Eileen Byrne.  Dr. Judy, let me start with you. What sort of surprises you? The fact that it is women, that maybe a lot of us are sort of a little surprised about?

DR. JUDY KURIANSKY, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, you used two S words there Rita, surprised and shocked.  I‘m not surprised nor am I shocked at all.  I have been on the radio for 22 years hearing kids talk about what they do.  This doesn‘t shock me.  We have seen on this website, girls kissing girls.  Well, let‘s look at Madonna and Britney Spears for that one. That‘s been going on. And then the girls wearing diapers and do things that are like (INAUDIBLE) they had to put nets, stocking nets on their head and silly things. (INAUDIBLE)  If it comes to drinking alcohol, then we are in trouble and, in fact, people can be shocked over the fact that there have been six deaths since 1970 of girls in fraternities from hazing.  So those cases are extreme, but girls have been doing these things, I‘ve been hearing about, these things for years.  In sports teams we don‘t really want them to do that because we want to put the bar higher.  But in sororities, my goodness, I was in a sorority in high school.  This is now, goodness knows in the late ‘60s and we were doing all kinds of things that made us cry.  We had to be pushed under beds. 

COSBY: It is nothing new.  (INAUDIBLE) because Eileen, on the other hand, Northwestern is a top notch school.  So a lot of people are a little surprised to see and this incident happened last year. 

EILEEN BYRNE, CHICAGO RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: I think you are right.  I agree with Dr. Judy. I think this is a product of a sex saturated culture.  We‘ve got it on the Internet.  We‘ve got girls gone wild.

COSBY: Why put the pictures on the web? Isn‘t that surprising they‘d actually post them. Incriminating yourself. 

BYRNE: Right and especially because this is a soccer team and Northwestern does delineate that if you are going to be involved in this kind of extracurricular activity and you‘re going to be on the soccer team, if you‘re going to be involved in this kind of sports, hazing is not prohibited so you would kind of  wonder.  It is interesting about Northwestern because I think when it comes to Northwestern and Duke with the other case, that this isn‘t just a community college.  That is maybe why it gets headlines because I was on bad jocks.com.  And there‘s a lot of schools there. Why is it Northwestern and someone like Duke that‘s making the headlines? Because maybe you would expect it on a community college, but oh gosh, this is a very prestigious university, very affluent students, well educated students and they are doing it, too. 

KURIANSKY: I think that because—when kids are wealthy and have nothing better to do they end up trying to think of things that are outrageous. 

COSBY: That‘s what I was going to ask you, Judy, do you think that they go to extreme to sot of make up for or to show off?

KURIANSKY: Absolutely and this is what kids are doing on colleges.  We can scream about what the—how the debauchery society is today. 

COSBY: What is the draw to women? Because one of the things we were looking at, female hazing activities, has heavy drinking during recruitment visit, 39 percent, this is a new study—participating in drinking contests, 34 percent.  There‘s another one also. It said athletes most at risk for alcohol-related hazing, first is women, Dr. Judy. 

KURIANKSY: Well, because women these days are trying to prove that they are empowered.  They are copying guys.  We don‘t like it, but it is the truth. 

COSBY: It is more acceptable if it is guys Dr. Judy.

KURIANSKY: No I don‘t think it‘s acceptable.  But I think the school goes to an extreme.  People get panicked. The school worries about being sued.  I mean to take the soccer team, to suspend the entire soccer team.  Talk to the girls.  Do something about the culture on the campus. 

COSBY: Let me bring in Eileen, because Eileen, they were suspended.  Is that the right move? Because we know there are no laws, but there are hazing procedures.  Basically the university policy forbids things like this type of behavior. 

BYRNE: I would agree with Dr.  Judy‘s point that I‘m not surprised that this happens.  I mean we are telling girls that you want attention.  You want a guy to pay attention to you. You don‘t go on a date. You make out with your best friend (INAUDIBLE). Absolutely. I think that you could sign onto soccer. You can sign onto rules and pick and choose then the rules that you want to abide by.  Absolutely.

COSBY: And Dr. Judy, real quick.

KURIANSKY: I think it is a little extreme.  We really need to be reasonable with kids and open our eyes to what they are doing and talk to them and teach them, rather than just punish them.  

BYRNE: I would love to know what  their parents think about this. 

COSBY: Yeah, me too. We‘ll try to get them on. Both of you, thank you very much.  Well still ahead, will the main suspect in the Natalee Holloway case face a trial in New York City? Natalee‘s mother tells me what happens inside the courtroom just a few hours ago as she fights for answers.  That‘s coming up and that‘s not all.

Still ahead, the latest guy indicted in the Duke rape case. Has he passed a polygraph?  


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I passed that polygraph for the same reason that I will be acquitted of all these charges, because I have done nothing wrong and I am telling the truth and I have told the truth from day one. 


COSBY: Tonight, we‘ll tell you exactly who gave Dave Evans (ph) the test and what they asked. Is there any way to cheat?

And the hunt for killer alligators rampaging across Florida.  Find out how trappers know they have caught one of the murdering monsters and why there could be more attacks. 

Plus, everyone wanted Chris Daughtry (ph) to win big on “American Idol.”  Now the rock band Fuel says he may be the one guy to front their band.  They‘re going to join me Live & Direct.


COSBY: And lawyers for Natalee Holloway‘s parents went head-to-head with an attorney for prime suspect Joren Vandersloot (ph) in a New York City courtroom today.  At issue whether or not a civil lawsuit filed by Natalee‘s family against Joren and his father should be heard in a New York court.  Natalee‘s mother Beth Holloway Twitty was inside the courtroom and she told me she is happy the case is finally being heard. 


BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY‘S MOTHER: We‘re just relieved that it is all in the judge‘s hands and, you know, now that, you know, she can make the decision on, you know, whether we can have Natalee‘s case heard here.  You know, it felt so powerful though to be there in the United States courtroom and, you know, we can just remain hopeful for a longer period of time now, Rita. 

COSBY: Did it feel good to be in that courtroom as you just said, like justice is maybe being served, like there‘s a sense it is moving in a direction?

TWITTY: Oh, absolutely and I think what the family, what we have thought about all along is this the most tangible or almost tangible issue we have been able to hopefully move towards and I know we are not there yet.  We have put a lot of hope and effort in it and we‘re going to continue to remain hopeful. 

COSBY:  How tough is this waiting period going to be, because no one knows if we are looking at a few days, we‘re looking at a few weeks, few months?

TWITTY: Rita, I‘m so relieved since I‘ve left the courtroom that I know I don‘t have an answer now but, you know, we don‘t have to know. 

COSBY: What do you say to critics who say why should this case be heard in New York, why should New York bare the responsibility of the costs when nobody lives in New York?

TWITTY: From a mother‘s standpoint and from Natalee‘s standpoint is that, while we want to hear because it would be the best chance at Natalee getting justice that we will ever have and that‘s why we want it here.  I think that everyone has witnessed the injustice that has gone on around the family in Aruba. 

COSBY: Why do you believe New York?  Why do you believe this versus Aruba?

TWITTY: Well, I think that this is where the Vandersloots chose to come here and they didn‘t have any problem coming here and granting interviews for media.  So just I think they initiated that.  We reacted to their coming here. 

COSBY: If the case gets thrown out in New York, is there a point where you say, look, I have done it all.  That‘s it. 

TWITTY: You know, from that point, Rita, I guess we will just regroup and I don‘t know where we will go from there.  We just hate to cross that bridge yet since we‘re not there.

COSBY: The first anniversary is coming up, Beth.  I know that is going to be tough for you.  You and I have been talking about this unfortunately for a long time.  What are you going to do to mark the anniversary?

TWITTY: Really, at this time the family doesn‘t have any plans to do anything, Rita.  I think that when we look at the date coming, a year coming up, it is no more difficult than every day to live and see what all Natalee is missing and has missed and will continue to miss. 

COSBY: Plans in Aruba, we have been hearing so many mixed messages Beth. On one hand, we hear about this arrest of all these different people, then they get let go.  We‘re also hearing that they‘re even talking about trying to maybe close the case and then you are also hearing of more searches, right.

TWITTY: Right.  We are hearing that this week that they were doing some more water searches.  I know that is coming, probably from Tim Miller‘s efforts because he is planning on returning to Aruba, I believe, next week. 

COSBY: In your heart of hearts, do you believe this still will be solved, even though we‘re approaching a year?

TWITTY: Yes.  We really think that we‘ll hear something Rita. I think that there has been too much effort put into this.  Everyone has witnessed this. There has to be something that could break.  I feel as if there has to be, Rita.  I just can‘t come to that. 

COSBY: We are all rooting for you that you get some answers.  And Beth, nobody deserves it more than you.  We love having you on Beth and we will do whatever we can. Thank you so much. 

TWITTY: Thanks, Rita. 

COSBY: And I also spoke to Joren Van Der Sloot‘s American defense attorney Joe Tacopina.  He says he is confident in his case and his client‘s innocence. 


JOE TACOPINA, JORAN VAN DER SLOOT‘S US ATTORNEY:  We think the case law is very much on our side. Clearly, this judge gave us all the time we needed to lay out all our positions, all our arguments.  And I think it is a sign of a judge who wants to be thorough and wants to be correct. 


COSBY: Joran Van Der Sloot and his family came to New York to do an interview.  Didn‘t it open himself up and others up, just like stepping on American soil, to maybe get into the suit? 

TACOPINA: No, not in the least bit. I mean this is a motion to dismiss this, because New York is not a convenient forum.  Rita, the case cannot be tried in New York.  As a trial lawyer, I‘m telling you, it would be impossible to try this case in New York because we couldn‘t compel witnesses to come over here and testify.  Don‘t forget, Joran came here on the dime of a network that wanted to foot him his bill for the television interview.  He came here after nine months of being called everything from a murderer to a rapist, to a predator.  And he came to defend himself. It was a very brief visit.  That does not give the states of New York the right to try this case. It gives the plaintiff‘s personal jurisdiction over him which they got. We don‘t contest that. 

COSBY: There are a couple of moments that I heard got a little heated today when the other side was sort of suggesting that one of the witnesses, this Jane Doe.  We were hearing some word that she was claiming that Joran raped her, then backed out.  There was some suggestion that maybe she was bribed or coerced to change her story. 

TACOPINA: That was a clear moment of desperation for the plaintiffs.  It was almost a pathetic moment quite frankly, because they‘re not saying that she was.  They‘re just speculating.  I mean they need to explain to this court why it is they submitted an affidavit by some attorney - a second hand affidavit from some attorney from some woman named Jane Doe who was making these claims. Well, as we now know Rita, the cat‘s out of the bag.  Jane Doe is not Jane Doe.  She is Karen Martinez. She‘s a young lady who was brave enough to give us an affidavit that she swore to under penalties of perjury, saying Joran never did anything of the sort to me. He never sexually assaulted me.  He never did anything bad to me. And I never said I wouldn‘t testify in Aruba.  What in fact she does say is that pressure was exerted and put on her by representatives of the plaintiff‘s camp. 

COSBY: How is your client, Joran Van Der Sloot doing? Have you talked to him and what was his reaction about today?

TACOPINA: We spoke.  I mean he spoke to members of the team. He was very upbeat and very gracious, as he always is.  He was very thankful and he is in school.  So he is studying and worrying about those sorts of things not the proceedings in New York.  We are just hopeful for their sake that this nightmare will soon come to an end. 

COSBY: If the judge decides to keep this case in New York, what are you going to do?

TACOPINA: We have about four or five other motions ready to come down the pike.  But I don‘t want to speculate as to what the judge will do just yet.  We‘ll react accordingly.

COSBY: What do you say to the Holloway family tonight, Joe.  They are just desperate. They want answers and they are just trying to find any sort of legal jurisdiction to do so. 

TACOPINA: It is understandable.  I think they are just so emotionally invested in Joran being part of this even though he‘s not.. 

COSBY: The cops still sort of suggest he is a suspect. 

TACOPINA: They suggest everyone they ever questioned is a suspect.  Don‘t forget, it‘s done a little differently in Aruba. But clearly by their investigation, they are looking elsewhere.  They are looking for other leads.  They are looking in other directions. They‘re not towards Joran anymore. 

COSBY: Joe Tacopina, thank you very much.

TACOPINA: OK, Rita, thanks.

COSBY: So just what are the chances that the Holloway case might actually end up in New York? Live & Direct tonight our criminal defense attorney Lauren Lake and also former prosecutor Lisa Pinto.  Lauren, first you, what do you think the chances that the judge is going to rule for the Holloway family? 

LAUREN LAKE, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Slim to none.  No.  It is not happening.  This is not a convenient form.  And let me just start by saying, it just isn‘t. The alleged act happened in Aruba.  The defendants are Aruban citizens.   New York has nothing to do with this case besides the fact that they were lucky enough to catch that personal jurisdiction when they landed here in New York City.  There is no reason for the New York State courts to be entertaining this lawsuit (INAUDIBLE) and is going to be (INAUDIBLE).

COSBY: . on the fact that they did step in New York soil.  They came here.  Some of the witnesses have some ties to school.  Are those things enough to lay hold and say OK, it should be in New York. 

LISA PINTO, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Lauren must be rubbing her crystal ball looking into the future.  In six months when Judge (INAUDIBLE) will decide this motion.  She set aside her judgment at this point. They were served in New York.  Certainly, there is a public policy interest.  As a New York citizen I don‘t want minors from my state getting abducted and held against their will overseas.  I hope we can set a precedent here in New York that we will hold people accountable for that. 

COSBY: Should New York foot the bill, Lisa because then any case can come to New York.

PINTO: What is the cost here?

COSBY: It could be exorbitant. They‘re bringing people to Aruba. 

PINTO: Keeping our children safe or paying for a couple of flights on expedia.com.  What is alleged by John Q.  Kelly Rita is that this happened three times before, that Joran was gambling with his dad, that his father had him in therapy for this behavior (INAUDIBLE).  These parents were clearly negligent if you believe the allegations in Kelly‘s complaint. He took his son gambling and partying and he gave him a VIP... 

COSBY: What about the case.  (INAUDIBLE) Is there some issue here?

PINTO: They do but the proper place for it is Aruba.  Come on here. 

COSBY: They are also saying that these witnesses are too scared, that some of these girls are too scared to go down there?  Is it fair to say (INAUDIBLE) force them to go down?

PINTO: Absolutely, this is getting ridiculous, this whole fear thing.  This case is operating, investigation, search parties and everything else that comes in Aruba.  When it is time to find her, everybody‘s in Aruba. So you know what, when it‘s time to try the case it needs to be in Aruba.

LAKE:  (INAUDIBLE) Look how well that has gone so far. 

LAKE: You are reaching a little bit far.  You want to talk about public interest.  If every person in this nation goes out of the country and something happens to them they then can bring this case to New York and they just happen to catch.  You are setting a precedent that I don‘t think we‘ll be able to deal with. 

PINTO: When they hire New York city attorneys, when they do the full press media gig where they go on national television based in New York, flying here at their own expense, when they are served, when they hire New York counsel, when they litigate this case in the America media - (INAUDIBLE) When they are forced to because they are served with a suit.  They are forced to hire. They want to deal with thing in Aruba.  You heard (INAUDIBLE) say that. They‘ll deal that in the place where it allegedly happened. 

LAKE:  . has an in in Aruba. Daddy was a former judge and best friend. 

COSBY: Lisa, where do you think this is headed? Do you think—Lauren said slim to none.  What do you think.

PINTO: I think it‘s possible Judge Cabinet (ph) may let the case go forward in which as, let the witnesses come forward.  Let them have their day in court.  What‘s to lose here? 

COSBY: Both of you stick with us. We‘re going to have a lot more with both of you later in a moment.

Still ahead, Dave Evans says he passed a polygraph test in the Duke ape case.  Tonight, we‘ll tell you what questions he was asked and how he answered them. 

And then three deadly alligator attacks in one week and there could be one on the way.  They are looking for another alligator.  Not this one.  But we have the man known as the dean of gator wrestling.  He is coming up to tell us how dangerous they are, how you can even some of them.  What he‘s done. That is a live picture of an alligator you‘re looking at right now and he‘s going to be there with the alligator coming up after the break.  (INAUDIBLE)


COSBY: Tonight the hunt is on for the last alligator responsible for this week‘s unheard of series of attacks across Florida.  Trappers have already caught two of the alligators responsible for killing three women in the past week alone.  But before this week only 17 fatal attacks on humans have been reported since 1948.  So what is causing alligators to come out now and how dangerous are they? 

Tim Williams is an alligator expert at Gatorland in Florida.  He‘s been dubbed the dean of gator wrestling and he joins me now live with two of his reptiles. I can see one of them there, where‘s the other one?

TIM WILLIAMS, ALLIGATOR EXPERT, GATORLAND:  Well we keep him in here because he‘s got little teeth and he doesn‘t have tape on him like this one here.  We put the tape on here so this one wouldn‘t bite.  It‘s an alligator and it doesn‘t hurt the animal, but it‘s a good safe way to bring them out and help try to teach people about him. 

COSBY:  Yes, now you have the tape on.  How dangerous can alligators be and why would they go after humans?  What provokes them?

WILLIAMS:  They are an alpha predator out there in the swamp and they

right now a lot of things are happening, Rita.  We‘ve got dry weather, where ponds are drying up.  We end up with alligators—numbers are very high right now, they‘re up in probably a couple of million here in Florida.  People are moving into alligator country, it is mating season, and it is kind of like the perfect reptile storm going on.  And the fact these unfortunate incidents occurred are very rare.  And I think that‘s important we remember that...

COSBY:  No, you bet.  You bet. 


COSBY:  You have the little guy there.  Maybe we can zoom in on him. 

How old is that little gator right there and how big will he grow to be?

WILLIAMS:  Great—this one right here is probably about a year and a half old.  They hatch out around the end of August, first part of September.  The one on the table is about four years old.  And if this little guy is a male gator, he can grow up to be maybe 14 feet, six, 800 pounds, and it takes him about 60 to 70 years to do that. 

COSBY:  Sixty to 70 years?


COSBY:  What do they eat?  How do you feed them?

WILLIAMS:  Most time they‘re eating things like fish and snails and snakes and things like that.  They don‘t eat every day.  They eat just a few times a year.  So consequently, when something looks like easy prey they‘ll go for it, people swimming in the water, walking around, splashing, swimming at night, so that kind of looks like easy prey.  At Gatorland we feed them chicken and fish and red meat.  And you know, but that is the only place you should be feeding them are like places like Gatorland.  You don‘t want to feed them out in the wild.  It is against the law.  It creates a very dangerous animal.  Those animals come swimming up looking for food, and if there is no food around, they don‘t care.  Meat is meat is meat as far as the alligator is concerned. 

COSBY:  You know we‘re looking at some of their jaws when their mouths are opened, it‘s incredible.  How strong are these alligators and how powerful like are their crushing power? 

WILLIAMS:  They can exert over 3,000 pounds per square inch on the big ones...

COSBY:  What does that mean like relation to other animals?  What does that mean?

WILLIAMS:  It‘s—pound for pound it‘s the most powerful bite in the animal kingdom.  Crocodiles and alligators have an extremely powerful bite and once they grab they have 82 very big sharp teeth and it‘s kind of like a tear on the dotted line.  It is like a paper towel, they grab, then they shake their heads violently or roll their bodies over and over and just rip out a piece and then crush it and swallow it whole.  They don‘t chew their food up.  They just crush it down.

COSBY:  You know we are seeing it move a bit.  How strong are they?  And is it just the mouth or is it also the tail that can be pretty powerful too when they get to full size?

WILLIAMS:  The tail could be very powerful.  A big gator can hurt you pretty bad.  They—and if they hit you, they could possibly break something, but we have a saying at Gatorland, the back end will beat you and the front end will eat you, and we really spend more attention with that front end.  We really watch that more than anything else. 

COSBY:  So how do you train these guys?  If we can zoom in too, because I‘d like to get a good shot of the guy on the desk there, how do you train them?

WILLIAMS:  Well this one actually isn‘t trained too well, he‘s still a youngster, but...

COSBY:  Yes, I can tell.  He‘s still got the tape on...

WILLIAMS:  Oh yes, we‘ve—but we‘ve got some that I have worked with over a period of years.  And food is the main training thing.  It is a conditioning that we get these animals to.  They learn their names.  They are not all that stupid.  And they will learn their names.  They‘ll respond to their names...

COSBY:  They‘ll actually respond to a name? 

WILLIAMS:  Oh, yes, yes, I‘ve‘ actually had people tell me stories about George out in the lake that they‘ve been—I have been throwing marshmallows at George for five years...

COSBY:  And what‘s this one‘s name as we‘re looking at him, Tim?

WILLIAMS:  This is Izzy.

COSBY:  This is Izzy.  This is...

WILLIAMS:  We call this one Izzy because people always go is he real.

COSBY:  Right.

WILLIAMS:  We have Izzy and we have Willie.  Will he bite?


COSBY:  Creative names there.  You actually gator wrestle.  How do you become the dean of gator wrestling?

WILLIAMS:  I‘ve gotten to a point and an age where I can get down on an alligator.  I‘ve got get people to help me get back up, so that‘s why I‘m the dean now, but I started wrestling alligators back in the early ‘70‘s and I‘ve been doing it, and it‘s been a great time.  It gives me an opportunity to go all over and teach folks about alligators.  And that is one of the big things we try to do at Gatorland is get people to understand that it‘s safe.  You can go into the waterways.  You can come down here to this beautiful state and enjoy it and recreate and build your homes and get along with these animals very well, if you use some good common sense and be cautious and watch what you‘re doing. 

COSBY:  Well, good points, Tim, and of course, let‘s also make sure everybody is safe and also stays away from them as much as possible...

WILLIAMS:  Oh, please.  And Rita, what a great—I watch you every night, I have to tell you that.  You‘re—every night you are in my house. 

COSBY:  Thank you.

WILLIAMS:  So it‘s a great pleasure.  I love your show.  Thank you.

COSBY:  Thank you and I‘m glad to have you on the show tonight, Tim...

WILLIAMS:  Thank you so much.

COSBY:  Thank you very much and also Izzy too, thank you. 

Well, still ahead, Chris Daughtry was the front man on “American Idol” until he was voted off.  Now the rock band Fuel may want him to be their front man.  They‘re going to join me live.

And next, the latest young man accused of sexual assault at Duke says a lie detector proves he‘s innocent.  We‘ll tell you what questions he was asked, who asked them and even if that test is reliable.  Up next.


COSBY:  And there‘s a lot more coming up right here on MSNBC tonight.  Let‘s check in with Tucker Carlson now with a preview.  Tucker, what do you have?

TUCKER CARLSON, HOST, “THE SITUATION”:  Rita, “The Da Vinci Code”, has it sunk before it‘s even sailed?  Why movie critic Michael (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to explain whether the controversy over the film‘s portrayal of Christianity has destroyed it before it‘s even reached the theaters.

Plus, “Baghdad ER”, it‘s a new documentary on HBO.  The military is advising people not to watch it, saying it is too graphic, it‘s too gory, and it‘s bad for the war effort. 

And finally, “American Idol” dramatic developments, we‘re going to cover them as we always do, we don‘t always, but we are going to tonight, amazing.

COSBY:  Everyone is (UNINTELLIGIBLE) an “American Idol.”  All right, Tucker, thank you very much.

CARLSON:  Thanks, Rita.

COSBY:  And new developments tonight in the Duke lacrosse rape case.  We‘re now learning that the details about the private polygraph tests that were given to indicted player Dave Evans, a test that remember he says he passed with flying colors. 


DAVE EVANS, INDICTED LACROSSE PLAYER:  I passed that polygraph for the same reason that I will be acquitted of all these charges because I have done nothing wrong and I am telling the truth and I have told the truth from day one.


COSBY:  And back with us now our legal eagle Lauren Lake and also Lisa Pinto.  Lisa, let me put up a couple of the questions too, and again, this was put out by the defense.  These are the questions.  It‘s a veteran FBI agent that was asked—these were the ones that were asked of Dave Evans.  Here‘s the first series.

On that date at the lacrosse party did you physically assault the accuser?  The next one on the same date, did you sexually assault the accuser?  And then the last one in this first series, did you actively participate in a sexual assault of the accuser?

David Evans answered no.  Pretty standard questions, Lisa? 

PINTO:  Well, Rita, the problem with this whole test is that it was a private test.  It was not done in a police station by police officers.  It was done I believe for money in the privacy of this investigator‘s office.  We don‘t know...

COSBY:  Now actually this guy got paid, right Lisa...

PINTO:  Right.

COSBY:  This guy is a private guy...

PINTO:  Right.

COSBY:  He absolutely got paid.

PINTO:  We don‘t know if there was a practice session before where he was taught what the questions might be so he had a chance to calibrate himself.  We don‘t know what questions might have been asked on the control.  We don‘t—you know I would have asked questions like did you hold the door closed.  Were you in the bathroom?  Was anyone you know in the bathroom?  Was the victim slipped an intoxicant?  There were about 40 other questions I would have asked.  Even so, even if he had answered all those questions still not admissible...

COSBY:  Let me put up some other ones, too, because they did go a little further too.  I mean it sounds like the guy did—I have seen a lot of these polygraph tests.  I‘ve seen one saying is your name Dave Evans.  I mean ridiculous questions like this and in this one at least he delve into some things. 


COSBY:  He also asked did you see or hear anything on that date that would indicate the accuser was sexually assaulted at the lacrosse party?  In other words, maybe not you, but somebody else.  Also further asked, did you have any firsthand information that the accuser was sexually assaulted at the lacrosse party?  He answered no to all of these.  Lauren, what do you think of this test, credible or not? 

LAKE:  Well I mean Lisa has got to get with her old buddy, old pal the prosecutor in this case because what I heard is that this young man contacted his office (UNINTELLIGIBLE) time...

COSBY:  And he turned it down.

LAKE:  ... saying I would like to take a test and he turned it down. 

So that is why we have a private test, so then we have private results. 

Now they asked the questions, he answered them.  They are not admissible.  However, we are trying this case now in the court of public opinion.  And trust me it does do something for the defense in this case to decide.  And unless this prosecutor has a rabbit to pull out of his hat we have got to get some type of case here because he is running a really, really thin race right now.


COSBY:  (UNINTELLIGIBLE) points.  Let me first start on one of them.  Is it admissible?  It is inadmissible as we know, so why do it?  Is this all just to put out a good sort of P.R. message, Lisa? 

PINTO:  Oh, this whole thing is a charade.  It is put on for show.  We are trying to get around the rape shield laws here, Rita, by trashing this woman in public.  Trot Dave Evans out...


COSBY:  This guy is an FBI agent, a veteran guy, and the flip side...


COSBY:  ... doesn‘t it give some credibility? 

PINTO:  Every expert witness has a background and this one has a distinguished pedigree, but he‘s for hire.  He is a hired gun.  And no one saw how this test was administered, Rita.  The issue here is they are trotting out this boy in his button down shirt loudly proclaiming his innocence, but what about the fact that they are trashing this victim in public?  They are getting around the rape shield laws by calling her a stripper, talking about the semen she had in her body.  This is a big dog-and-pony show...


LAKE:  No, Lisa, the bottom line is in this case you know what is going to happen in a rape trial.  This is just the way it is.  It is what it is.  It is not changing and it‘s not going anywhere.  But the bottom line is, is we‘ve got to figure out what happened here and what if by chance if something did happen to her but it wasn‘t these three men.  I mean we‘ve got to keep that in our minds before the prosecution bandwagon takes off and we may convict the wrong...


LAKE:  There is no person that would rather seek justice than an African American female such as myself...


LAKE:  ... sit here and say that the facts have not...

PINTO:  But Lauren...

LAKE:  ... yet.  Surely...

PINTO:  Lauren...

LAKE:  ... you can too.

PINTO:  ... Dave Evans was present when that bigoted horrible language went on, things like your grandfather made my cotton shirt...

LAKE:  And that‘s exactly why I say...


LAKE:  Surely if I can sit...


LAKE:  ... and say that they may be racists, but not necessarily rapists, surely you can say the same thing because it has not...

PINTO:  Why doesn‘t he cooperate? 


COSBY:  ... have to be the last word.  We will find out.  You guys, this is far from over.  We‘re going to have both of you back on soon.  And I know you‘re going to be filling in for me next week, which I‘m glad you‘re going to be, Lauren.  Thank you very much.

LAKE:  Thank you. 

COSBY:  And still ahead everybody, spoiler alert.  We are going to tell you what happened on tonight‘s “American Idol” including who danced their way out of the competition.  It wasn‘t me or Lauren. 

And the rock band Fuel joins me LIVE & DIRECT with why former contestant Chris Daughtry could end up their front man.  They are coming up next.



COSBY:  Well it sounded pretty good and that was Elliot Yamin performing on “American Idol.”  And just moments ago we found out the results for tonight‘s show.  Now we want to warn you everybody, if you don‘t want to see who won this latest round of “American Idol” yet, turn down your TV set right now for just a moment.  Make sure you turn it back up. 

Taylor Hicks and Katharine McPhee have just been announced as the finalists and Elliot is going home.  We are joined once again by one of our favorites, former “Idol” Kimberly Caldwell, who now hosts “Idol Tonight” on the TV Guide channel.  Kimberly, what did you think of him getting booted?

KIMBERLY CALDWELL, CO-HOST, “IDOL TONIGHT”:  You know I think that Elliot has had a really great run and I think that you know he did such an awesome performance last week.  He was so on top of his game.  I think he‘s actually the one who changed the entire competition and sent Chris home, so...

COSBY:  How do you think he changed it?  How do you think he changed it, Kim?

CALDWELL:  I think that he just did so amazing and I think that last week everybody thought that he was going to go.  I don‘t think anybody thought that Chris was going to go.  And he came in and did two amazing songs, got great you know comments from the judges and the audience absolutely loved him.  I fell in love with him that night.  I thought he was so flawless that night and I think that he is the one that changed the competition entirely, so...

COSBY:  But he didn‘t win. 

CALDWELL:  I think that it should be Taylor and Katharine...

COSBY:  And but he didn‘t win, Kim.  Let me play a little bit.  This is a little bit about Elliot.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Your songs are not going to carry you through to next week.  That is the problem.  However, you are a great guy.  You are a great singer.  And whatever happens you will make your mom very proud for what you have achieved in this competition.


COSBY:  You know how Simon works, Kimberly. 


COSBY:  Was that sort of a precursor? 

CALDWELL:  Yes, yes, and I mean I think that this week Elliot was not on his game like he was last week and so that is the result.  You see what happens.

COSBY:  Yes and why do you think that is?  Why is it so up and down?  And you know it was so tight tonight? 


COSBY:  I mean the numbers were just so close.  They also put up the results, which was a whole other issue too.  Is it a question of maybe they‘re going to say let‘s do a little bit of a recount?  I mean the numbers all the way they were like 33-point something...


COSBY:  ... 33-point something, 33-point something.  I mean it was by a hair. 

CALDWELL:  Yes, they—he literally got kicked off by a hair.  But I think if they were going do a recount that it would be when Chris got kicked off for sure.  I don‘t think there‘s going to be any recount, but you know being on “American Idol” is like an emotional roller coaster and sometimes you are on and sometimes you are off. 

And on “American Idol” you, you know don‘t get the opportunity to be off.  You‘re not allowed to be off and if you are, then you‘re going to wind up getting kicked off the show.  But I think that Elliot has been so amazing and really grown on “American Idol” and I think that his mom and you know his hometown and all of his fans are really going to stick with him through this and I think he‘s going to be...

COSBY:  Let‘s talk about who‘s left, Kimberly...


COSBY:  ... because we‘ve got Katharine left and of course we‘ve got Taylor left.  Let me show a little bit.  This is Taylor talking back to the judges.  She was getting feisty. 

CALDWELL:  Yes, I know...

COSBY:  Yes, let me play this, Kimberly.  Let me play this...

CALDWELL:  Yes, go ahead.

COSBY:  ... get you to react.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  You guys are hard on me the last couple of weeks.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  You know, it‘s...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  (UNINTELLIGIBLE) choices, it‘s the right kind of song...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I didn‘t pick it. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I know, but still...



COSBY:  How does that help or hurt her? 

CALDWELL:  See, I think that it always hurts.  I mean any time any contestants would ask me advice I would just say don‘t talk back to the judges.  I don‘t think it‘s worth it and I think it makes you look bad.  You know these are three very experienced people who do know what they are talking about and maybe sometimes they are on and maybe sometimes they‘re off with their comments and maybe sometimes a little bit too brutal. 

But I do think that I mean Katharine was in the right to say I didn‘t choose this song.  What are you talking about song selection for?  You know I‘m not the one who chose it.  So, but at the same time I always say, at least for me, coming up in Texas, you don‘t talk back.  So that is what I learned and that‘s what I live by.

COSBY:  That is what your mother always teaches you. 

CALDWELL:  Yes and I get popped upside the head if it was different. 

COSBY:  Kimberly, hold on, OK, because I want to bring...


COSBY:  ... into the conversation Carl Bell and Jeff Abercrombie from the popular rock band Fuel.  After seeing him perform they are asking performer and former now “Idol” contestant Chris Daughtry to join their group. 

Guys, first of all, let me play a little bit.  This is Chris Daughtry when he was singing your big song “Hemorrhage.”  This is what he did on “American Idol”.  Let‘s play a little and then I‘ll get you guys to talk about it. 


COSBY:  You know, hey Carl, what do you like about Chris Daughtry?  What hit it for you?

CARL BELL, FUEL:  I think Chris has kept it, he‘s kept rock on a show that is not necessarily rock and that is why we like Chris.  That is why we thought it would be a good choice for us.  When we were talking about—we are without a singer.  And when the whole situation went down with Chris it seemed to be a pretty good fit I thought.  He started it.  He sang the song, you know, meaning he did a good job, so...

COSBY:  (UNINTELLIGIBLE) this is Chris‘ reaction when he heard that you guys might be interested.  Let‘s play it. 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I‘m so flattered you know because it is a band that I love and respect.  And growing up you never expect one of the bands you listen to, to call you and offer you the lead singer spot.  But you know those things take time.  I want to make sure that whatever I decide is the best thing for me and my family.


COSBY:  You know Jeff he‘s not quite sure.  What do you think?  Do you think he‘s going to take you guys up on the offer, Jeff? 

JEFF ABERCROMBIE, “FUEL”:  You know, I don‘t know.  I think he is being told a lot of things right now.  And I think he has got a lot of stuff on his plate.  And this is the decision of a lifetime for him.  Ultimately, this could change his life, so you know it may take him some time to do. 

COSBY:  You know and both you guys...


COSBY:  ... neither one of you guys were like totally hot on “American Idol.”  I mean so many people are watching, but this is the quote that you guys talked about “American Idol”.  You said normally, obviously, we would never even think about anyone from “American Idol” as a singer for Fuel. 


COSBY:  Sorry, the show is not my thing.  Which one of you guys said that? 

BELL:  I said that.  I mean seriously rock and “American Idol”...

CALDWELL:  Actually, I‘m the lead singer now. 


CALDWELL:  They‘re not—they don‘t have Chris anymore.  I‘m the lead singer...


BELL:  But you‘d have to shave your head.  Can you do that?

CALDWELL:  See, look. 

COSBY:  She‘s ready. 

BELL:  For rock and “American Idol” it doesn‘t mix and that‘s one thing Chris has got to think about is that if he goes solo that is cool, if that‘s what he wants to be.  But that‘s kind of stepping himself into the pop world.  If he comes to Fuel it is really making a hard-line statement with him that he wants to be rock and he wants to you know gain our history.  We have had multi-platinum record sales.  We‘ve had number one singles on all rock formats.  It is a big statement for Chris if he comes to Fuel that he wants to be rock...

COSBY:  You bet.

BELL:  ... and wants to move on that way. 

COSBY:  Well you guys, we‘re thrilled you are all here with us.  Thank you so much.  And we‘re going to have you back soon.  Keep us posted what happens with him if he joins your band.  Thank you and...


COSBY:  ... thanks so much, Kim, very much.  And everybody, when we come back, you may have heard that Sir Paul McCartney appears to be on the verge of divorce.  But what you may not have heard is how much Britain‘s richest musician could lose.  Money can‘t buy you love, but love can cost you money.  We‘re going to have the details next.


COSBY:  And word out of London tonight that former Beatle Paul McCartney and his wife of four years, Heather Mills, are heading for divorce.  Mills is 25 years younger than McCartney and reportedly hated living in McCartney‘s shadow.  They have a 2-year-old daughter and get this, McCartney is said to be the wealthiest musician in the U.K., but didn‘t ask his bride to sign a prenup.  Mills has reportedly asked for a settlement of about $200 million pounds.  That would be about 300 million bucks.

And everybody, we promised you golfing great John Daly tonight.  We apologize, but Mr. Daly had a little bit of a last minute scheduling problem.  We hope to get him back on the show very soon.  We will keep you posted on that.  Again, apologies on that.

And everybody, that does it for me tonight.  Let‘s now go to “THE SITUATION” with Tucker.  Tucker?




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