updated 11/2/2007 3:48:48 PM ET 2007-11-02T19:48:48

Guests: John Christy, Kim Gandy, Bill Press

MATTHEWS: Every word you said—broader. I mean it‘s fun.

Anyway, Carlo Maranuci flat-footed), Chris Ezrett Klein flat-footed).

Right now it‘s time for Tucker.

TUCKER CARLSON, HOST: It was the waffle heard round the world.

Welcome to day two of the Hillary Clinton campaign‘s damage control effort after her performance at Tuesday night‘s debate. Hillary‘s defenders are now claiming that moderator Tim Russert was unfair and more fundraising will solve the problem. And, of course, they are playing the gender card—yes, the gender card. Senator Clinton played that card herself while speaking at her alma mater, Wellesley College, today.

Here it is.


SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D), ‘08 PRESIDENTIAL HOPEFUL: In so many ways, this all women‘s college prepared me to compete in the all boys club of presidential politics.



CARLSON: Senator Clinton‘s chief pollster, Mark Penn, cited female voter backlash against the six on one effort to bring her down.

“New York Times” op-ed columnist Gail Collins gave Clinton points for not letting the guys push her around.

Will the gender card help cover the vulnerability she showed at Tuesday‘s debate?

Or is it a risky line of defense?

In a moment, we‘ll ask the president of the National Organization for Women. And we‘ll debate the issue that sparked this campaign fire—New York Governor Eliot Spitzer‘s proposal to give driver‘s licenses to his state‘s illegal aliens. Mrs. Clinton ultimately said she doesn‘t support the governor‘s proposal, but she recognizes and respects its fundamental purpose.

What is the purpose of giving privileges to illegal aliens in this country?

We‘ll tell you.

And the man who shared his Nobel Peace Prize with Al Gore says it‘s not at all clear to him either that global warming—that a catastrophe is imminent or that human behavior is responsible for that warming.


John R. Christy joins us later in the hour to elaborate on that.

But we begin with operation damage control by the Hillary Clinton for President Campaign and the bubbling up, both from campaign officials and the new media, of playing the gender card.

Here to talk about it, we welcome the president of the National Association for Women, Kim Gandy.

Kim, thanks for coming on.


CARLSON: So I want to read you part of an e-mail I just got moments ago from Patty Solis Doyle, the campaign manager for Mrs. Clinton. This was sent to millions of Clinton supporters like me.

Here‘s part of what she said about Tuesday night‘s debate: “On that stage in Philadelphia,” she writes, “We saw six against one—candidates who had pledged the politics of hope practiced the politics of pile-on instead. Her opponents tried a whole host of attacks on Hillary. She is one strong woman. She came through it well. But Hillary is going to need your help.”

In other words, woman in distress. This girl is in trouble. You‘ve got to help her, you chivalrous American supporters for Hillary Clinton.

How embarrassing is that?

GANDY: I think you need to read the rest of the message.


CARLSON: I did and the essence of it—I mean they‘re calling it the pile-on letter.

GANDY: Oh, Well, you know, it definitely...

CARLSON: They‘re being mean to the girl.

GANDY: It definitely was a pile-on. But, of course, the frontrunner always gets piled onto. It‘s a little easier for them to do it because she‘s female. She is—you know, they use a somewhat different approach for her because she‘s female. But the bottom line is that she‘s the frontrunner and anybody who is smart and who‘s trying to become the frontrunner themselves is going to pile-on.

CARLSON: What do you mean it was easier for them to do it?

I mean the conventional understanding is you can‘t hit a girl and being mean to Hillary Clinton, as Rick Lazio found out in 2000, only hurts you.

Why is—why do you say it‘s easier?

GANDY: Well, you know, they do it in a somewhat different way. We were just listening to Chris Matthews on “HARDBALL,” who himself talked about her voice being like fingers scratching on a blackboard.

CARLSON: Right. But this is not about Chris.

GANDY: No...

CARLSON: I mean this is about the other candidates who are running for the same position—the nominee of the Democratic Party—questioning her position on substantive policy matters. And all of a sudden she turns around and says you can‘t be mean to me, you‘re men, I‘m a woman.

How many ways does she want it?

She wants to be elected because she‘s a woman and she‘s saying you can‘t attack her because she‘s a woman. That‘s not fair.

GANDY: Well, I don‘t think she‘s saying you can‘t attack her...

CARLSON: Well, she is.

GANDY: ...because she‘s a woman. No, she‘s not saying that at all.  What she said—what her campaign manager said, at least, is that they were piling on and we need to make sure that she‘s as strong a candidate as she can be.


GANDY: And this was sent out to...

CARLSON: No, no, no...

GANDY: ...this was sent out to her supporters.

CARLSON: She‘s playing the victim. She said Tim Russert asked her...

GANDY: How did you get on that list?

CARLSON: ...asked her about...


CARLSON: Yes, that‘s a great question.


CARLSON: Tim Russert asked her at the debate, you know, where are you on this question of giving illegals drivers licenses?

And she went back and forth, back and forth. And he says well, here‘s what you said before to a voter...

GANDY: Well, it was much longer (INAUDIBLE)...

CARLSON: And it was a quite—it was a complicated issue and it‘s a complicated question. Rather than answer it, she said this—“You know, Tim, this is where everyone plays gotcha.”

In other words, why are you picking on poor little female me?

That‘s pathetic.

Can you run for president by saying don‘t ask me mean questions, I can‘t handle it, I‘m going to cry?

I mean that‘s what she‘s saying.

GANDY: Well, no, I don‘t think that‘s what she‘s saying at all.

CARLSON: Well, what is she saying?

GANDY: I think what she was saying is that it‘s a complicated question with a complicated answer.

CARLSON: But she‘s accusing him of playing gotcha.

GANDY: And she proceeded to give the complicated answer and got exactly what she expected. People seized on one part or the other part to say well, she said this or she said this or she mixed up her answer. In fact, she gave a very coherent answer to a very complicated question.

CARLSON: Because, you see, here‘s what I‘m a little bit confused by.

The rationale...

GANDY: And, frankly, if someone else had been the frontrunner and had given the same answer, I think they would have been piled on to, as well.

CARLSON: And if someone else had given a...

GANDY: But not because of the substance of the answer.

CARLSON: ...whiny, I‘m the victim dodge like “you‘re playing gotcha,” I would have landed on that person, as well. If Barack Obama did that, I would land on him.

I‘m just confused by the rationale for the Clinton campaign. She‘s a woman, therefore vote for her. And I‘ve asked this question of many people.  Maybe you can answer it.

What about being a woman is—specifically related to her sex—is going to make her a better president?

GANDY: Well, there‘s no question that women do bring a different life experience to everything that they do.


GANDY: And the fact that—even the fact that we have a woman running

a woman frontrunner for president—sends a terribly important message to our daughters and to our sons that women can be leaders.

CARLSON: But once she‘s acknowledged that...

GANDY: And that is so important. And for...

CARLSON: OK. I get that.

GANDY: For women everywhere, the idea of having a woman president—not just a women president, but a woman who will be a terrific president...

CARLSON: But don‘t you see you‘ve opened yourself up...

GANDY: Means something very important to them.

CARLSON: OK. Hold on. Now that you‘ve conceded that men and women are different and that being a woman is an advantage, you also have to concede that it could be a disadvantage.

GANDY: I said when men—I said women bring a different life experience...

CARLSON: They bring a different life experience...

GANDY: ...because women are treated differently in this society.

CARLSON: OK. Maybe it‘s good, but maybe it‘s also...

GANDY: And they bring that understanding.

CARLSON: But, no. But you‘re using stereotypes about women to her advantage. You‘re saying women are a certain way, she is a woman, therefore vote for her.

You could also say—why couldn‘t you take that to the negative side?

Maybe I could say, you know, women are too emotional. Or maybe they‘re bitchy sometimes. Don‘t vote for her. But you‘re not allowed to say that.

GANDY: But of course...

CARLSON: You can only credit being a woman to the positive side.

GANDY: Of course people are saying that. Lots of people are saying that.

CARLSON: No, she‘s saying you can‘t...

GANDY: ...because they know the country is not ready for a woman president, I think—I think I‘m going to...

CARLSON: But why not just take gender out of this and fight fair?

Why not just say you know what?

GANDY: Oh, is that for her to...


GANDY: ...for her to point out that she‘s a woman...

CARLSON: Absolutely.

GANDY: ...is unfair fighting?

CARLSON: Absolutely. Absolutely. Because the expectation...

GANDY: Oh, come on.

CARLSON: I‘ll tell you exactly why. Because you are seen—and this

has happened in campaigns with her and other female candidates—you are

seen as a bully, as mean, as one of the boys, as she said in her absurd

reference in her speech at Wellesley today—if you attack her.

And shouldn‘t this be a campaign about ideas and what she stands for and not about her gender, which she can‘t control?

GANDY: Well, it is a campaign about ideas. But the fact is that she is targeted and treated differently because she is a woman...


GANDY: ...and she may as well take advantage of that, as any candidate takes advantage of the characteristics that bring them something extra.

CARLSON: Wait. I just have never—I have never seen being a woman work to her detriment. But maybe it will. I bet she‘ll be elected president, probably, because she‘s a woman.

GANDY: I hope you‘re right.

CARLSON: Kim Gandy, thanks very much.

I appreciate it.

GANDY: My pleasure.

CARLSON: Hillary Clinton‘s presidential campaign is doing damage control right now after Tuesday night‘s bruising debate. Supporters are being asked to donate more money to help fight back against that group of mean men running against her. We‘ll tell you more.

While some Republicans are hoping New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg jumps into the ‘08 presidential race, it‘s not because they think he can win, it‘s a political calculation. And we‘ll explain it in a minute.

We‘ll be right back.


CARLSON: Hillary Clinton is leading Barack Obama in national polls by double digit margins and she‘s leading in most primary states, as well.

So then why are some saying her presidential campaign suddenly is in trouble?

We‘ll explain.


CARLSON: She stumbles once during her seventh debate. We‘ve still got months before the first primary vote is cast and now some of us are breathlessly wondering if Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton‘s campaign is in trouble.

Here‘s how the “New York Daily News” depicted Hillary after she took a verbal beating at the hands of her fellow Democrats Tuesday night.

Look at that.

The question is can Hillary claim to be a grizzled veteran of rough and tough politics and then cry no fair when her male opponents fire a few jabs at her?

Joining me now, MSNBC political analyst Pat Buchanan and the nationally syndicated radio talk show host and all around great guy, Bill Press.


CARLSON: Pat, I mean, the obvious question—she clearly is playing the gender card...


CARLSON: You can‘t hit a girl.

Does that work?

BUCHANAN: I don‘t think she‘s saying that. I think what she did is very effective up there at Wellesley. She‘s going to these gals up there who adore her and she‘s saying, in effect, look, I‘m out there and all the boys piled on me and we‘re doing just fine. I came out of Wellesley and they‘re all enthusiastic.

I think, frankly, that solidifies her folks and she‘s turning herself into someone who stood up against the whole crowd and handled herself well, took a couple of shots and came out and is willing to go back.

I think, frankly, this is the best day she‘s had. It wasn‘t yesterday when she endorsed that...

CARLSON: Interesting. Now that‘s a totally...


CARLSON: I mean I think whenever she appears tough, I think it‘s good for her. I think she actually is tough. But the one thing we learned from the Lorena Bobbitt case is there‘s a great deal of resentment among women aimed at men. That‘s why Oprah is huge. I mean women are angry...


CARLSON: I‘m serious. Women are angry at men in a lot of ways.


CARLSON: They don‘t say much about it, but they are.

PRESS: Wait a minute. Whoa.

CARLSON: And she‘s pandering to that resentment and anger. And it‘s wrong.


PRESS: I think men have a reason to be angry at women based on what Lorena Bobbitt did.

CARLSON: Well, I couldn‘t agree with you more.


CARLSON: No man would ever defend the corollary. But women are like, oh, I understand why Lorena did that.

PRESS: I know what...

CARLSON: I mean they‘re really mad and she‘s taking advantage of it.

PRESS: I wouldn‘t—that‘s not the analogy I would make.

But let me—let me put it this way. I don‘t think she‘s in such serious trouble. I find this whole—the teeth now that the media is into, a little—a little misplaced. Look, if you look at what happened, how she recovered from this thing, right...

she did not have the best night Tuesday night, let‘s face it.


PRESS: She didn‘t have the best night. But the next day, she gets the AFSCME endorsement. She puts the video out. They put this phone call together and tell all her supporters we‘re in trouble, we need money. She‘s got more money than anybody else and today she does the—she plays the Wellesley card. I think that was a brilliant recovery from a rocky night.

CARLSON: Boy, I guess, you know, she‘s not going to get the majority of male votes no matter what she does. So I guess maybe it doesn‘t matter.  But, you know, I actually thought on substance she didn‘t do well on Tuesday night. And I wonder—not asking—answering the question about the National Archives and the Clinton papers...


CARLSON: But what about this?

“Roll Call” apparently got a hold of the conference code number for the Clinton campaign, listened to the conference call. One of the participants said Tim Russert “should be shot” because he was being mean to Hillary.

Here‘s what Mark Penn said, that—basically the chief strategist on the campaign, the Hillary campaign: “We‘re not challenging the media on that, but the sentiment you have expressed is obviously one I‘ve heard.”


BUCHANAN: Well, look. I mean...

CARLSON: They sound like lunatics.

BUCHANAN: Look, obviously—look, Tim asked some very tough questions, no doubt about it.

CARLSON: They were fair questions. They were good questions.

BUCHANAN: She‘s the frontrunner. But this is just the point I‘m making. When she got beat up—as she did by her six people going at her hard...

PRESS: Eight. Eight.

BUCHANAN: The whole gang. And then she gets beat up.

What does it do?

It rallies her base. That‘s someone saying, Hillary, you know, that guy—they are terrible, we‘re behind you all the way. In other words, it solidified and impassioned her base. And I think what she did today—I agree with Bill. I don‘t think she‘s in serious trouble. I still think she can be beat in Iowa because the situation is volatile and Obama did a good job in the sense that he has disa—he disagrees without being disagreeable. I mean Edwards probably solidified his base and reduced it because he looked like he was going after her and after her and after her.

So I think she‘s—I think she comes out of it fine.

CARLSON: Boy, I mean the—Bill Richardson was the only one—it‘s not fair to say it was a total pile-on...

PRESS: Right.

CARLSON: ...because Bill Richardson sniffed her throne and sucked up to her and kind of petted her feet and didn‘t—you know, basically bowed down before her. I think he wants to run for Senate for Pete Domenici‘s seat in New Mexico.

Why would he do that?

PRESS: I would...

CARLSON: Why would he suck up to Hillary?

PRESS: I would I would like to see Bill Richardson run for Senate, by the way, in New Mexico, I hear that he‘s not going to. At least he‘s resisting it. I think, clearly, he knows that Hillary has—let‘s just go way out here—that Hillary has a better chance of getting the nomination than he does and there might be another job in store for Bill Richardson.

CARLSON: But you can‘t just call yourself a man attempt point.

I mean can he...

PRESS: No, and I...

CARLSON: When he goes and when he gets dressed in the morning and tightens up his tie and looks in the mirror, does he see a man or does he see a toady?

Come on.

PRESS: I also think he had a sense that she was being unfairly pummeled, particularly by John Edwards—who takes all the money from all the law firms in Washington and attacks her for taking special interest money.

BUCHANAN: I think, look, that clearly this guy, Richardson, he sees possibly the vice presidency, possibly the secretary of state...


BUCHANAN: ...possibly the cabinet, a Senate seat. So he goes out and makes a great gesture to the nominee of his party. That makes all the sense in the world to me, Tucker.

CARLSON: Right. But is any of those jobs, Pat, worth your self-respect?



CARLSON: Good man!

Pat Buchanan—the most honest man in Washington.


PRESS: Damn right it is.


CARLSON: Unbelievable.

Do you think—I mean is there—there is clearly—Mark Penn said on this call, according to “Roll Call”...

PRESS: Oh, yes.

CARLSON: Amazing, by the way, they got into that conference call.

PRESS: Yes, I...

CARLSON: But he said—and I think he‘s right—there will be a backlash among women who saw that or heard about it. They‘re being mean to our girl, let‘s defend her, let‘s send her money.

Will there be a counter-backlash where she—that erodes even more of her male support?

PRESS: For Hillary you mean?

CARLSON: Yes. Against Hillary.

Will men say you know what?

This is cheerily the man hating candidate, I‘m not for her?

PRESS: You know what?

This just might be me. I don‘t think so, because I think, again, she didn‘t have the best night, but she looked tough. She stood up to these guys. She didn‘t back down. She wobbled all over the place on a couple of answers, but, you know, she didn‘t cry. She didn‘t whine. She took them on.  And it was eight to one.


PRESS: Look, the first question—I‘ve got to say this—Brian Williams, the first question to Barack Obama is, you‘ve said some bad things about Hillary.

Do you want to repeat them all tonight?


PRESS: I mean so that was an invitation to let‘s all pile-on.

CARLSON: That‘s a great question.

BUCHANAN: What is the—what is the—I mean that‘s right.


BUCHANAN: What is the ultimate upshot of all of this?

I think the enduring problem she‘s got is the driver‘s license thing.

And that‘s a substantive problem.


BUCHANAN: But the enduring thing is Hillary went in there, got beaten bloody and she came out and she‘s now battling and said, hey, I did OK. And her troops are rallying to her. And it was eight one. And, OK, she got beat up a little bit, but...


CARLSON: She‘s really—she‘s one of those monsters in a Japanese horror film who takes your energy. You attack her, she grows stronger and topples another office building.

PRESS: That‘s why she‘s going to be the nominee.

CARLSON: I agree.

It‘s—it‘s disturbing.


CARLSON: New York Governor Eliot Spitzer wants to give drivers licenses to illegal immigrants. He‘s not the only New Yorker backing this plan. Here‘s a hint—the other is running for president.

Plus, some Republicans are calling for another New Yorker to run for president—Mayor Michael Bloomberg. We‘ll tell you why.

You‘re watching MSNBC.


CARLSON: Hillary Clinton has found herself in the unenviable position of defending New York Governor Eliot Spitzer‘s controversial program to let illegal aliens have legal drivers licenses. Mrs. Clinton‘s vague answer on the subject in this week‘s debate opened her up to criticism from her Democratic opponents.

Will it be her undoing and allow her opponents to critically damage her campaign?

MSNBC political analyst Pat Buchanan is here, as is nationally syndicated radio talk show host Bill Press.



CARLSON: Here‘s the problem with this as an issue. For one, it‘s impossible to defend on common sense grounds, I believe.

For another, this question of allowing illegals to have drivers licenses—for another, it hurts not just for the right-wingers—not just people like me or Pat—it hurts with the Independents. Democracy Corps, which is the James Carville led or inspired group that does, I think, pretty good polling, actually, on a lot of this stuff, came up—they put a survey out two days ago. Here‘s what they said: “Voters want control of the borders and workplace and recreating an immigration system that works and oppose drivers licenses for illegal aliens—a position supported by about two thirds of the country.”

That‘s a very unpopular position for her to take.

PRESS: Let‘s take it in two stages.

Number one, I don‘t think it‘s impossible to defend. I heard Governor Spitzer on “HARDBALL” just 15 minutes ago do a pretty good job of it and point out that Secretary—Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff supports the plan that Spitzer has ended up with.

CARLSON: Oh, I‘m sure. (INAUDIBLE)...

PRESS: That‘s not where he started, because what he‘s saying is from a security point of view, you need to know who‘s here, where they are, what they‘re up to and you can identify them, you can follow them and that‘s why they need some kind of a different kind of license plate. They can‘t use it to get on a plane, but at least they have an I.D. Flat-footed).

CARLSON: That‘s nothing (INAUDIBLE)...

PRESS: Now...

CARLSON: Democrats aren‘t for securing the borders. If they were, they‘d build a wall. They don‘t care about the security (INAUDIBLE)...

PRESS: I‘m just saying if, you know, Spitzer can do this with, in effect, the Bush administration—Michael Chertoff‘s endorsement, it puts a different flavor on it.

On Hillary, just quickly, Pat, I think Hillary—it took her a while to get there, but I think she ended up with the right position, which is let the governors decide this.

Let me point out, Barack Obama and John Edwards support the full-fledged drivers license for every illegal alien.

CARLSON: Yes, because they‘re lefties and she‘s not.

BUCHANAN: They‘re—this is a...

CARLSON: She‘s supposed to be a centrist.

BUCHANAN: Look, this is death in the general election. I mean the people who are really tough on illegal immigration are African-Americans, working class folks making about $20,000 to $40,000, middle American Independents.

CARLSON: The people it hurts.

BUCHANAN: Yes. You know, 72 percent of New Yorkers were up in arms over Spitzer‘s drivers license...

PRESS: Original plan.

BUCHANAN: OK. But look—look how long it took you to explain it. You get into a presidential debate and you say Hillary is for amnesty for illegal aliens and giving them driver‘s license and that‘s the end of this country, we‘ll never stop this invasion.

And how does she answer that?

PRESS: Here‘s...

BUCHANAN: I think it‘s a—this is one issue on which Hillary is moving out of the center and onto the left. That‘s why Obama is out there and Edwards is out there. You can‘t take that position into a general election.


PRESS: May I remind you both as conservatives that federalism is a conservative issue.


PRESS: What she‘s saying is leave it up to the governors in the first...

CARLSON: But you can‘t do that. You can‘t have...

PRESS: Of course you can.

CARLSON: No, of course you can‘t because, in fact, it‘s, in effect, a federal I.D. Flat-footed) card. You need it to get on an airplane, to cross state lines—yes, you do. You need a drivers license to do all sorts of things that are not restricted to a state.

But let me just ask you this.

PRESS: Wait a minute, Tucker.


PRESS: Just a factual thing. But that‘s not what they‘re talking about. Seven states have done this, where you have a different class of drivers license that cannot be used for any federal purpose. That‘s what Spitzer is now talking about now. And the first governor to do it was Governor Leavitt—Mike Leavitt, who is now in Bush‘s cabinet...

CARLSON: Right. Of course, well...

PRESS: ...when he was governor of Utah.

CARLSON: ...this is an administration that is for opening the borders, I mean—and I think that‘s one of the reasons they‘re so very unpopular with their own people.

Let me just ask you this.


CARLSON: Were you surprised Hillary Clinton, who has thought through everything—you can wake her up from a dead sleep and she‘ll answer any question flawlessly.

PRESS: Right.

CARLSON: She‘s really very rigorous about studying, I think—didn‘t have a two sentence answer on this.

PRESS: Yes, I was surprised.

CARLSON: Why not?

PRESS: Yes, I think she was caught flat-footed on that issue.

CARLSON: But it‘s her state. It‘s her governor.

PRESS: And she (INAUDIBLE) it and it hurt her, yes.

BUCHANAN: It‘s her state. It‘s a blazing issue in New York. It‘s a blazing issue nationally. And she‘s caught flat-footed. I couldn‘t understand that at all.

CARLSON: Why is that?

BUCHANAN: I don‘t know. I mean...

CARLSON: I‘m not piling on. I‘m not trying to be mean to Hillary Clinton.

BUCHANAN: No, no. No, that‘s why she should have had an answer.

CARLSON: I just—it‘s an honest (INAUDIBLE)...

BUCHANAN: No, that‘s right. She should have had an answer.


BUCHANAN: And she should have had an answer. Look, Governor Spitzer is having a tough time working with this, but basically I don‘t think you can give driver‘s licenses to illegal aliens on a matter of principle. I respect Governor Spitzer. He‘s doing a good job.

But I mean she‘s got herself out there.

Tucker, I‘ll tell you what. I will predict she will get off that before the general election.

CARLSON: I agree with you completely.

PRESS: But I—see, she‘s already gotten off of it. I want to come back to what I said. She‘s for this limited Spitzer thing that Chertoff endorses. Obama and Edwards are for the full boar, give them a driver‘s licenses that they can use anywhere.

CARLSON: Yah, but they‘re not—they‘re not going to be the nominee.

PRESS: That is the one that‘s a dangerous—that‘s a dangerous...

BUCHANAN: But does that sound good—let me ask you.

Does your answer sound good in a presidential


PRESS:  Their answer I‘m saying I think Hillary can say (audio break)  let‘s leave it up to the states. I‘ll let them decide.


CARLSON: I mean why shouldn‘t the Clintons—the former president, the current Senator—release all papers from the National Archives relevant to her role in the Clinton administration?

PRESS: As far as I‘m concerned, they should release everything. I‘m for—I‘m for a total sunshine law and (INAUDIBLE).

CARLSON: But what‘s the rationale for not releasing them?

I don‘t even...


CARLSON: I don‘t even get it.

BUCHANAN: The rationale for not releasing them...

CARLSON: I don‘t even get it.

What‘s the other side?

BUCHANAN: The rationale for not releasing them is that every reporter in “The Washington Times” will have a feeding frenzy over there for the next two months while she‘s running in the Iowa caucuses. Look, Tucker, I mean, if you‘re an adviser to a candidate, don‘t let that stuff out.

CARLSON: But if you‘re running on your so-called experience—I mean her argument is no, I was not a ceremonial first lady, I was deeply involved in policy. Show us.

BUCHANAN: But who do you want to define your experience?

All the reporters that are going to grab those documents?

Or do you want to define it yourself?

CARLSON: Well, I just hope those reporters keep—keep up the pressure on her.

BUCHANAN: I mean for a reporter, I understand it.


BUCHANAN: But if I were advising a candidate...

CARLSON: Right. No. Of course. I mean she‘s got something to hide and she wants to hide it. But I think we should keep pushing her to see it.

PRESS: Right. And I‘ll keep pushing for the Cheney Energy Task Force records.

CARLSON: I agree.

PRESS: And all the records of the Bush administration.

CARLSON: I agree with you.

PRESS: Just open them all up.

CARLSON: I want to see what is going on in my government.


PRESS: Absolutely.

BUCHANAN: ...take that (INAUDIBLE) now.

CARLSON: They—right.


CARLSON: That‘s exactly right.

Hillary Clinton versus Rudy Giuliani—we‘ve seen that battle once before briefly in 2000 for the U.S. Senate seat in New York. We could see it once more in 2008.

Who‘s got the upper hand this time around?

Plus, the State Department is forcing some diplomats to take jobs in Iraq. Some diplomats are angry about it. In fact, some says it‘s “a potential death sentence.”

We‘ll unpack that.



CARLSON:  With the maelstrom swirling around her debate performance on Tuesday night, Hillary Clinton could use some good news and we have it for her.  A new poll by the Pew Research Center shows not only Mrs. Clinton defeating Republican front runner Rudy Giuliani by eight points in a hypothetical national election.  The poll also shows Mrs. Clinton running ahead of Giuliani in the American south, running even with households making more than 100 grand a year and with regular church-goers.  Narrowly behind Giuliani in rural areas and with men, but only narrowly. 

Every one of the categories, of course, has traditionally been Republican.  Back to tell us what that means, MSNBC political analyst Pat Buchanan and nationally syndicated radio talk show host Bill Press.  Pat, this is by far—and I know it‘s theoretical.  I know it‘s a national poll, all the caveats—worst poll I‘ve seen. 

BUCHANAN:  It‘s really bad news.  You‘ve got Hillary up over 50 percent and even with eight percent undecided—

CARLSON:  In the south? 

BUCHANAN:  And 52 to 41 in the south; that‘s very, very bad news.  what it says is the country wants to get rid of the Republicans.  They don‘t—

CARLSON:  yes. 

BUCHANAN:  like their performance at the national level.  Nobody has really excited them dramatically.  If Rudy is the front-runner they‘ve got, that says the Democrats are favored to take the presidency and Hillary can win the presidency of the United States.

CARLSON:  It means the brand is really damaged, what it means to be a Republican is a bad thing all of a sudden for a lot of people.  It was a good thing until recently.   

PRESS:  It means something else, I think, which is there‘s no longer any rationale for Rudy Giuliani‘s candidacy.  He‘s been saying all along, yes, you don‘t like me on gun control.  You don‘t like me on choice.  You don‘t like me on other stuff.  But I‘m the one that can beat Hillary.  That‘s his whole campaign.  If this poll is anywhere near accurate, it destroys the whole thing. 

CARLSON:  Someone has to run against Hillary Clinton or the Democratic nominee. 

PRESS:  Another one, the “Washington Times” this morning reports Bay Buchanan—

BUCHANAN:  Who‘s that? 

PRESS:  Bay Buchanan saying, under no circumstances would she ever vote for Rudy Giuliani, even if Hillary Clinton is the Democratic nominee. 

CARLSON:  A lot of people feel that way.  Bay Buchanan, of course, in addition to be the sister of our own Pat Buchanan, was also involved in the Tom Tancredo for president campaign.  Is she still? 

BUCHANAN:  She‘s still out there.

PRESS:  And a noted author and conservative in her own right. 

CARLSON:  And a cool person, I think. 

BUCHANAN:  Go back to the debate—but that does show Hillary can be beaten.  I still think she can be beaten.  This is good news for the Democrats, bad news for the Republicans.  But, you know, I still think she can be beaten because of the way she conducted herself.  She was under stress and she didn‘t perform well.  And you do that in a big national debate—I think this thing is going to close. 

Listen, if you go Republican/Democrat, Republicans lose.  You go conservative/liberal, I think they‘ve got a better shot. 

CARLSON:  Republican/Democrat, Republicans lose—

Conservative/liberal—you really think so? 

BUCHANAN:  The conservative brand is also down—

CARLSON:  Yes, it is. 

BUCHANAN:  But if you get the—if you get—the vast right-wing conspiracy re-paints here as a liberal.  You can do all these things.  I think they can be beaten, Tucker.  I really do.  Frankly, I think we would beat—the Republicans would beat Obama and Edwards hands down. 

CARLSON:  I agree with that. 

PRESS:  There‘s one other factor here too and another poll we may want to talk about, which is the “USA Today” poll showing today 72 percent of Americans are in a funk; 72 percent of Americans think the country is going in the wrong direction.  They are not happy with the economy, not happy with Iraq.  That‘s the makings of a revolution.  It certainly gives the edge to the party which is not in power. 

CARLSON:  When was the last time it was this low? 

PRESS:  1992. 

CARLSON:  And before then? 

PRESS:  When they bumped out—

CARLSON:  That‘s right, 1979.  That‘s right. 

BUCHANAN:  Michael Dukakis (ph) was up by 17 points on August one of 1988.  And by Labor Day, he was down—he was down seven points, 25-point switch, and Bush kept that all the way through in 1988.  And who did it?  Atwater by defining him as a liberal.  And now it‘s not as strong as it used to be, the conservative/liberal thing.  But it can still be done.  Frankly, if you have a Tabula Rosa (ph) in there, a Romney type who people don‘t identify with anything right now, against Hillary, and you can paint her with the—with those lurid red colors, there‘s a shot at it, Tucker. 

PRESS:  And our conversation earlier on this show proves it‘s going to be very hard to paint Hillary with that broad liberal brush because she—

CARLSON:  The lady in red. 

PRESS:  Now, that‘s another—

CARLSON:  Now, Republicans, in the face of numbers like that, according to a piece today in the “Washington Times” are thinking about plan B.  Plan B is always to get the ringer, the third party candidate. 

BUCHANAN:  There you go. 

CARLSON:  In this case, Michael Bloomberg, who has said—those close to him say he‘s actually still considering a run.  He‘s told people around him he would spend up to a billion dollars doing it.  Any chance he runs?  I agree this would help Republican.

BUCHANAN:  I think there‘s a possibility that the guy runs.

PRESS:  I think you‘re smoking. 

BUCHANAN:  Mort Zuckerman was telling me he thought he was going to do it and stuff.  I think there‘s a possibility.  But there‘s no doubt—look, who is he strong with?  New York liberal, Jewish folks in the city of New York, which Hillary will probably carry by a couple of million votes.  He takes an enormous—he puts New York in play.  He would put California in play.  He would put Connecticut and New Jersey in play. 

There‘s no doubt about it.  If they could get him in that race, I would say eight or nine out of his ten would come right out of the Democratic party. 

CARLSON:  Look what happened when Ralph Nadir ran.  In the last two cycles Ralph Nader ran I thought a kind of noble principled campaign.  He was so hated the second time because Democrats thought he was hurting them. 

BUCHANAN:  But he sunk—he sunk Gore. 

PRESS:  No, he did. 

BUCHANAN:  He sunk Gore in Florida and I think he sunk Kerry. 

CARLSON:  Well, you also helped to sink Gore in Florida.

BUCHANAN:  Well, that wasn‘t my fault. 

CARLSON:  You had a lot of votes in Florida, as I recall. 

PRESS:  But the problem was Ralph was too far out there to get much support.  I agree the theory that Bloomberg, if he were to run, would hurt the Democrats more than the Republicans.  But I don‘t think the guy is going to run.  Look, he‘s not going to spend 50 million to be a spoiler.  He knows there‘s no way as a third party candidate he‘s going to win.  But I think this says a lot to me about the Republican team.  The Republicans are still always out there looking for somebody else. 

First it was Fred Thompson.  Then it was Newt Gingrich.  Now they‘re looking at Mike Bloomberg.  Sooner or later, they‘re going to have to wake up and realize they‘re stuck with thought have got. 

CARLSON:  I don‘t know.  I‘m kind of for Buchanan ‘08, personally. 

That‘s just a pipe dream I think. 

BUCHANAN:  Let me say, look, I do think this; the further you get away from Bush/Cheney, which they will after the conventions, and the more is country is looking ahead, I think the better off the GOP is going to be.  Because the Republican candidate, whoever it is, whether it‘s Rudy or Romney or Thompson, is going to be a lot fresher than Hillary Clinton, who by then is going to have locked up—if it‘s her, have locked up the nominee for eight months. 

They‘re going to be tired of her.  They‘ll say, what about these guys. 

So I think there is a chance for the GOP. 

PRESS:  Pat, there is a chance if you have a candidate.  But you‘re talking about Mitt Romney.  You‘re talking about Rudy Giuliani.  You‘re talking about Fred Thompson.  They‘re all weak sisters, pardon me, compared to Hillary Clinton.  They are. 

BUCHANAN:  They‘re putting up non-X against X.

CARLSON:  I want to get your take on a remarkable story moving on the wires this afternoon about the State Department and Foreign Service Officers, many of whom live here in Washington, an impressive group generally.  Not enough of them are volunteering for Iraq, despite all sorts financial incentives to do so.  And so now the State Department, and has done this before in other conflicts, is saying, some of you are going to have to go to Iraq. 

Well, apparently there‘s been some kind of revolt at the State Department.  I‘m going to read you a quote from one long serving State Department official, quoted, I believe, by the Associated Press.  He said, quote, it‘s one thing if someone believes in what‘s going on over there and volunteers.  But it‘s another thing to send someone over there on a forced assignment. 

So are we at the point where Foreign Service Officers, our diplomats, representing our interests abroad decide not to go to foreign countries because they don‘t agree with our foreign policy?  How does that work? 

PRESS:  I think it‘s—I saw that quote earlier today.  I think it‘s a stunning indictment of this administration and this war, that even inside the administration there are people who are so anti-war Bush‘s war in Iraq that they don‘t even want to go—

CARLSON:  They‘re cowards is the problem. 


PRESS:  They don‘t want to go work in an embassy. 

CARLSON:  It‘s not about Bush.  This is like the military.  I‘m sure a lot of men in uniform disagree with president, disagree with this war.  I understand.  I disagree with the war and disagree with Bush.  But they serve our interests, all of our interests.  You can‘t have diplomats deciding, well, I don‘t agree with the policy.  I‘m not going to represent my country. 

PRESS:  They have the option of quitting, which I think is what a lot of them will do. 

CARLSON:  They should, or be fired.  That‘s outrageous.

BUCHANAN:  That‘s a disgrace to Department of State.  Many of those guys were over in Vietnam and other places, have taken risks their lives.  There are stars up there for guys who have died.  Many of those State Department guys are heroic.  As you said, we‘ve got guys over there.  I mean, Jim Webb‘s son; he probably doesn‘t like the war.  He probably agrees with his father.  He‘s over there fighting.  For heaven‘s sakes. 

PRESS:  I think there‘s a difference between the military and civilian employees. 

CARLSON:  But we need—


PRESS:  Well, wait a minute.  This is Bush‘s war and his own people don‘t even support the war.

BUCHANAN:  Your party voted for it, Bill.  They voted for it. 

CARLSON:  All of us are implicated in it now.  All of us suffer because of it.  WE need the help.  We need diplomats to represent us.  They‘re charged with that sacred dirty and they‘re shirking (ph) it.  What the hell is that? 

BUCHANAN:  If the war is authorized, you can‘t pick and choose where you‘re going to go in war time.

PRESS:  Also, if you‘re a civilian employee, they can‘t put a gun to your head and say you have to go. 

CARLSON:  They can‘t.  You can get a job at the World Bank. 

Gentlemen, thank you very much. 

BUCHANAN:  Thank you, Tucker. 

CARLSON:  Pays better too, World Bank, and tax free.

PRESS:  I‘m not going. 

CARLSON:  Good for you.  Al Gore won the Nobel Peace prize, an Oscar, and an Emmy telling the rest of us to get rid of our gas guzzling cars, heat and light our houses with solar energy and recycle our toilet water because global warming is our fault.  We‘re selfish.  Does that guilt trip have any merit? 

And remember when your mother warned you not to play around power lines?  Apparently this guy didn‘t listen.  Willie Geist reveals his shocking secret.  You‘re watching MSNBC.


CARLSON:  If you ask Al Gore, humans are solely to blame for 80-degree October days in New England, melting ice caps, and acid rain.  That position won him this year‘s Nobel Peace Prize, but he actually shared that prize with thousands of others, participants in the U.N.‘s inter-governmental panel on climate change.  And they don‘t all agree with Al Gore. 

Joining me now is one of those who doesn‘t, director of the Earth Science Center at the University of Alabama in Huntsville, and Nobel Peace Prize co-recipient, John Christy.  Mr. Christy, thanks for coming on. 


CARLSON:  I appreciate your coming, because I know you‘re going to take a huge amount of abuse for saying this in public, because these sentiments are not allowed, but tell us—sum up very quickly what we know for certain about global warming and what we don‘t know for certain. 

CHRISTY:  Well, we know that the temperature has risen in the past 100 years or so, but the real question is why.  And the reason we don‘t want to ascribe everything we see to human effects is because essentially everything we‘ve seen the climate do recently has happened before. 

CARLSON:  So we have seen temperature spikes of this magnitude within recorded history? 

CHRISTY:  I don‘t know if you would call it recorded history, but certainly within the past 10,000 years.  Temperatures have been much warmer than today. 

CARLSON:  Because of people driving Suburbans or were there other reasons? 

CHRISTY:  Well, when you go back about 8,000 years, there weren‘t very many of those around, as I recall, so I suppose it was mother nature doing it. 

CARLSON:  So are there people who don‘t take money—scientists who don‘t take money from the polluting industries with that point of view, apart from you, and why don‘t they speak up?  Why—you never hear that point of view?  Anyone who says that is written off as a whacko or a shill.  Why? 

CHRISTY:  Well, I don‘t know.  There are a number of us who don‘t take money from any kind of industry.  We are employed by universities and so on.  But when you go to motivation for why people do or do not speak up, I really can‘t say.  It‘s just that this is a science I‘ve been studying since I was about 12 years old.  And it bothers me to hear people express with such confidence what the future right hold or why the climate is doing something now when we really don‘t know. 

CARLSON:  You make a very interesting point about what we can and are doing about.  Explain the effect, if everyone in the United States, all 300 million of us, decided to buy a Prius tomorrow, what would be the effect on global temperatures? 

CHRISTY:  I don‘t know if the United States went to Prius we would even—in fact, I‘m sure we couldn‘t detect the impact on global temperatures if that were to happen.  We‘ll be talking about temperatures a thousandth of a degree different, perhaps.

CARLSON:  And so you also make the point that if we‘re going to tackle one or many of the ills that beset human beings, that maybe this isn‘t the best use of our time and money, fighting global warming? 

CHRISTY:  Oh, yes, there are many environmental problems that are very serious, and I saw those when I lived in Africa.  If we attacked problems like water pollution, especially in the third worlds, and the lack of proper food and refrigeration, the lack of electrical power, which brings such great benefits to human life, we would have a—a much better environment, I think, around the world. 

CARLSON:  Mr. Christy, I really appreciate your coming on.  I want to apologize ahead of time for the e-mails you‘re going to get for doing it.  I‘m grateful.  Thank you. 

CHRISTY:  My pleasure. 

CARLSON:  Well, Heather Mills falls apart on British television, saying she‘s been treated worse than a murderer since her split from her former husband Paul McCartney.  The difference, of course, is that murderers aren‘t given 100 million dollars for their crimes.  Willie Geist wades through the crocodile tears when we come back. 


CARLSON:  Welcome back.  You know, it was about ten years ago that Barbara Streisand told the world she would never sing ago.  Her fans were crushed.  And then the long national nightmare ended.  A new day dawned and she sang again.  That‘s how we feel about our own Willie Geist, who‘s been gone the last couple of weeks on the morning show.  Tonight, his triumphant return.  Ladies and gentlemen, Willie Geist. 

WILLIE GEIST, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT:  I‘m back, Tucker.  I was hanging around the studio.  Thought I‘d stop by.  I love being here, as you know.  I found a job that allows me to wake up at 3:00 in the morning every day. 

I couldn‘t pass that up.  When a job like that knocks, you open the door. 

CARLSON:  Good move, Willie!

GEIST:  Here I am, Tucker.  One way or another, it‘s good to see you.  I have to start with a little breaking news that‘s just crossed, Tucker.  I can‘t think of many logical or acceptable reasons for someone to move from New York to Los Angeles.  But Joe Torre was given one thanks to the morons that own the New York Yankees.  The Los Angeles Dodgers announced just moments ago that Torre has agreed to be their new manager. 

Torre, who led the Yankees to the playoffs in every single season he managed the team, and also won four World Series titles, by the way, turned down an insulting offer that included a pay cut from the Yankees two weeks ago.  Now he‘s been driven into the arms of another baseball team.  The Dodgers are giving Torre a reported three-year, 13 million dollar deal. 

Tucker, I don‘t know where to begin.  This hurts me.  Joe Torre is a New Yorker.  And to see him go to Los Angeles like this, it‘s not right.  The guy, you know—you go out to an Italian restaurant with Giuliani. 

He‘s like Sinatra of our time and he‘s in Los Angeles with the Dodgers. 

The fans show up in the fourth inning.  They leave in the seventh inning. 

It‘s hard to watch. 

CARLSON:  Let me ask you one quick question.  Is he the last star the Yankees are likely to loose in the next couple of months? 

GEIST:  No, he may not be.  They‘ve lost A-Rod. 

CARLSON:  I see a theme here. 

GEIST:  Yes, A-Rod walking, Torre walking.  But the Torre one is not his fault.  It‘s the team‘s fault.  They should have kept him and they did not.  I‘m very sad to see him go.  He should have a lot of fun in Malibu though.  All right, Tucker, I‘m clearly upset about the Torre/Yankee split.  But I draw the line at sobbing on national television the way Heather Mills did when talking about her break-up from Paul McCartney yesterday.  Mills, who stands to make perhaps hundreds of millions of dollars from her four-year marriage to the Beatle—that‘s called return on investment, my friends—says she‘s gone through hell since she and McCartney announced they were getting a divorce. 


HEATHER MILLS, EX WIFE OF PAUL MCCARTNEY:  They‘ve called me a whore,a gold digger, a fantasist, a liar, the most unbelievably hurtful things.  I‘ve stayed quiet for my daughter.  But my daughter—we‘ve had death threats.  I‘ve been close to suicide.  So upset about this.  I‘ve had—

I‘ve had worse press than a pedophile or a murderer.  And I‘ve done nothing but charity for 20 years. 


GEIST:  The British press set out to illustrate Mills‘ point by jumping all over her weepy television appearance.  The tabloids pointed out that she‘d, quote, gone mental.  Mills took her media tour to the United States with a spot on “The Today Show” this morning.  By the way, Mills publicist has now dumped her, saying she advised against doing the interviews, and is making herself out to be a weepy victim on television sets across the United States and all around the world, Tucker. 

Do you feel sorry for Heather Mills McCartney? 

CARLSON:  I don‘t believe someone called her a gold-digger.  She wants 100 million dollars for a four-queer marriage.  Let me just say that all British accents are grating, but some are worse than others.  She has the single worst I‘ve ever heard. 

GEIST:  Yes, that‘s a really bad one.  And it‘s funny because everybody, including members of McCartney‘s own family, warned him not to marry her.  So he‘s eating a little crow right now.  I have to tell you something, Tucker, I was a little reticent.  I didn‘t want to attack Heather Mills McCartney because I know an attack on one member of the “Dancing With the Stars” family is an attack on the entire family. 

There she.  And, oh, who‘s that guy?  Remember that? 

CARLSON:  We‘re like the Navy SEALS that way, Willie. 

GEIST:  Yes.  She didn‘t—she did a little bit better than you and handicapped, frankly. 

CARLSON:  There was the sympathy factor.

GEIST:  Yes, I guess so.  All right, Tucker, I‘m not sure what‘s in the water in India.  But it seems the Indians have cornered the market on strange human stories, much like Japan has with strange robot stories.  Here‘s the latest from India.  This guy cannot be shocked, not as in he can‘t be surprised, as in you could hook him up to a nuclear reactor and he wouldn‘t flinch.  He discovered his talent, as so many of us have, while playing with loose electrical wires. 

The man felt no pain as electricity passed through his body.  So now he‘s moved on to climbing power poles and playing with high tension wires.  He also does things like sticking wrenches into toasters just for laughs, Tucker.  Now, I don‘t know when this started.  I‘ve been keeping close tabs on stories like this, as you know.  If there‘s a guy pulling a city bus with his mustache, it‘s probably in India.  There‘s a lot of interesting tails coming out of that country right now.  Keep a close eye on them. 

CARLSON:  This is the country that gave us snake charming, Willie. 

GEIST:  I know.  It‘s very frightening.

CARLSON:  So impressive, actually. 

GEIST:  I don‘t know if he‘s making money off of this, but good for him.  He climbs up a pole and electrocutes himself.

CARLSON:  I believe fire walking is also a product of the subcontinent. 

GEIST:  That‘s right.  You take the talent god gives you and you use it.  Good for him.  Finally, Tucker, you know Darth Vader has been painted with this whole Darth Vader image—excuse me, Dick Cheney with this whole Darth Vader image.  Well, he‘s sort of owning up to it now and embracing the idea.  George Bush was talking yesterday to reporters and he said he asked Cheney what he was going to be for Halloween and he says, you‘re looking at it and mumbled something about being on the dark side. 

So he‘s embracing this and he took it one step further when he dressed up his dog.  As you see here, there it is, Darth Vader and Superman, the other one.  Now, dressing up your dogs for Halloween is a different issue entirely.  But at least Dick Cheney‘s got a sense of humor about the fact that he is Darth Vader. 

CARLSON:  I think history will record Dick Cheney is by far the coolest member of the Bush administration. 

GEIST:  Really? 

CARLSON:  Yes, because he‘s totally authentic.  He never weeps.  Bush gets all weepy and starts talking about his feelings.  He‘s a Baby Boomer.  They‘re all the same.  Dick Cheney is an authentic hard case.  I kind of like that about him.   

GEIST:  We‘ll have to wait for the history books on that one, I guess. 

CARLSON:  I think we may.  Willie Geist, it is great to see you again. 

GEIST:  You, too. 

CARLSON:  Thanks.  If you want more Willie—and of course you do—check out Zeit Geist, his video blog, at ZEITGEIST@MSNBC.com.  That does it for us.  Thanks for watching.  As always, we‘ll be back here tomorrow night.  Tune in then.  Have a great night.



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